2015-12-01 UTC
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# 04:27 Loqi @aaronpk :: Downloaded the required reading onto my Kindle to read while in transit! Looking forward to seeing everyone tomorrow! #w3c #socialwg bblfish, jasnell, kevinmarks, cwebber2`, Arnaud, bitbear, tessierashpool_, dwhly, ElijahLynn, tommorris_, cwebber_remote, bigbluehat, bret and ben_thatmustbeme joined the channel
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# 14:39 aaronpk Shoot, flight is delayed leaving Portland so I will be a little later than originally expected jasnell and rene joined the channel
# 15:59 rene Any news on how to remotely join the f2f meeting? jasnell, kevinmarks, melvster and azaroth joined the channel
# 16:37 azaroth Morning all :) # 16:37 rhiaro rene: there will be a talky, just getting setup here kevinmarks2 and tantek joined the channel
# 16:48 rene which time are we starting? # 16:49 kevinmarks morning. I'm still on caltrain; ETA SF ~9:50am so you are going to beat me there # 16:49 aaronpk i brought a nice table mic and camera for a computer too which should help remote participation Arnaud joined the channel
# 16:49 tantek aaronpk: Thank you! I have a laptop setup with the HD USB cam # 16:49 tantek deliberately not linking to it to avoid getting it crawled in the archives # 16:50 tantek rene: can you try connecting to talky.io / socialwg (without the spaces) ? bengo joined the channel
# 16:51 tantek ben_thatmustbeme: are you online? could you try the talky.io / socialwg ? RRSAgent joined the channel
# 16:51 Zakim I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot # 16:56 kevinmarks is there a way to turn off incoming video and just have audio in talky # 16:57 wilkie the camera is pointed directly at me. I feel slighted haha. # 16:58 kevinmarks I'd like to turn off incoming video for you so I don't blow through my phone data plan in one train ride # 17:04 tantek Click where it says "Your Name" in the left column and type # 17:06 kevinmarks wishes he could turn off the 200KB/s video he isn't looking at # 17:07 rene acknowledged. Audio quality at talky is not very good. I find it hard to understand the speakers in SF # 17:08 rene corrections: only hard to understand speakers far away from the microphone # 17:08 aaronpk Audio should be better once I get there with my mic. # 17:10 tantek remote folks, if you could say if you can hear people as they introduce that would be good! eprodrom joined the channel
# 17:11 sandro bengo: Ben G at Livefyre, implementing AS1, observing # 17:12 sandro sandro: Sandro Hawke, MIT and W3C staff contact # 17:14 rene obviously it's a problem in SF with the sound. # 17:15 sandro ben_thatmustbeme: Ben Roberts, in Massachusetts # 17:17 eprodrom waves at tsyesika # 17:17 kevinmarks I'm in the front train carriage, so you'd get the 'ding ding ding' as we go through level crossings # 17:18 sandro Arnaud: morning today is on activity streams. any suggested changes? # 17:21 aaronpk tried to connect but the talky iOS app was really slow # 17:23 azaroth +1 to Arnaud's agenda suggestion melvster joined the channel
# 17:24 tantek I'm behind on updating agenda now in realtime # 17:24 sandro arnaud: lets do the added agenda items in the block where they fit # 17:25 sandro tantek: skipping items where the person's not here # 17:27 ben_thatmustbeme rene, kevinmarks asks if you can turn off video when not talking that would help connection # 17:28 sandro in general, it's nice to have remote video on, though, once kevinmarks is off the train. # 17:29 sandro Arnaud: a few weeks ago, the editor said it seemed stable and maybe it was time to go to CR. the chairs challenged the group # 17:29 sandro .. I think we were happily surprised to see a significant increase in activity # 17:29 sandro .. inclusing from folks who weren't engaged in AS2 # 17:29 sandro .. where do we stand in terms of moving toward REC, going to Candidate Recommendation # 17:30 sandro .. CR means we've closed all the issues, we're basically done, and we're asking the world to implement and make sure it works # 17:30 tantek all proposed agenda items from those present have been incorporated into agenda time slots per chair request # 17:31 tantek q+ to encourage prioritization of high level AS2 issues/problems that would benefit more from in-person discussion # 17:31 sandro sandro: can we be clear about where issues are being tracked? # 17:31 sandro eprodrom:also are the fundamental structural objections, like using JSON, or Subject/Verb/Object framing, ... or other fundamental objections that haven't been captured # 17:32 Zakim tantek, you wanted to encourage prioritization of high level AS2 issues/problems that would benefit more from in-person discussion # 17:32 sandro Arnaud: RIght, do we have all the issues recorded at this point? Would closing all issues mean we're ready to go to CR? Or are there people still waiting in the wings? # 17:32 sandro tantek: When we brought it to the group, saying I think we're done, I think we realized we were seeing apathy # 17:33 sandro .. from folk who didn't believe in it, but just disengaged # 17:33 bengo Silence can also mean agreement # 17:33 sandro .. During the F2F, I'd like to prioritize the ones that need more nuance # 17:33 sandro .. If there's a fundamental issue, F2F is the best time to bring that up. # 17:33 sandro .. That's the best time to acheive consensus on things like that # 17:34 sandro tantek: I went back and did a naive re-reading of the AS2 specs # 17:34 rhiaro bengo, thanks for starting the hypothesis versions of the docs, I like that approach for notes *during* reading, which can then be condensed/reshuffled into specific issues or IRC discussion afterwards # 17:34 sandro jasnell: A quick summary. 21 open issues in github, 4 in W3C tracker # 17:35 sandro tantek: jasnell what workflow would you like with issues? # 17:35 sandro jasnell: editorial changes, pull request is nice # 17:36 sandro sandro: clarifying --- "I'm not sure what this sentence means" -- should be open an issue? # 17:37 sandro tantek: If you have issues with AS2, dont just talk about them in irc or something # 17:38 sandro sandro: refined to: it's you job to make sure each of your issues is open in github # 17:39 rene one issue that needs clarification from my point is the "this can be easily done with an extension" argument # 17:39 Zakim sees bengo, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 17:39 kevinmarks a high level concern is AS1 compatibility - need AS1 implementers feedback # 17:39 azaroth proposed RESOLUTION: All new issues for ActivityStreams should be raised in github or via synchronous communication, and then captured in github # 17:39 sandro Arnaud: We're trying to produce a Recommendation that the world solve this problem with this technology. If you have issues, speak up.... # 17:39 rene I've raised that in the github discussion. James should know about this. I think today would be a great time to talk about that # 17:40 sandro bengo: In the charter, it mentions a social syntax deliverable. Is there a reason this is the only one? What about Turtle or something? # 17:40 sandro tantek: There's nothing that makes AS2 the only spec. It's just the most mature and active of the inputs. jaywink joined the channel
# 17:41 sandro bengo: If there are completely left-field concerns .... # 17:41 bengo (not advocating turtle) # 17:42 aaronpk train is delayed. Shoulda just brought my bike and biked there! # 17:42 tantek q+ to raise general re-reading feedback on AS2 # 17:42 sandro eprodrom: One of the architectural concerns, brought up by people not here, that's it's not PURELY JSON-LD. There's an expectation that it will be useful if parsed by a regular JSON parser. # 17:42 sandro .. I think that's something regulars from AS1 are used to, but it's a culture clash. # 17:42 tantek aaronpk you can walk in 7 minutes from Embarcadero station to MozSF! # 17:43 sandro tantek: We resolved this ages ago. That all JSON-LD support was to be optional. # 17:44 sandro tantek: I'd prefer not to re-open that unless there's really new information # 17:45 sandro cwebber2: AS is a JSON document, with an implied json-ld vocab, so if you run it through a json-ld processor with the right context, you'll get out triples. # 17:45 sandro .. but you can work on it with a normal json processor # 17:45 Zakim sees tantek, jasnell on the speaker queue # 17:45 sandro .. with a couple of potential exceptions, it's json data with an implied context. # 17:46 sandro jasnell: The only exception is when dealing with extension. # 17:46 sandro .. Because json-ld is the extensions mechanism # 17:46 sandro tantek: It's the chairs responsibility to uphold resolutions # 17:47 sandro Arnaud: we don't do a good job of gathering up the resolutions # 17:47 sandro eprodrom: problem with minutes from Boston F2F # 17:48 sandro .. james suggested json-ld in a way that's not intrusive # 17:48 azaroth Thanks for the clarification, and +1 to the existing resolution that JSON-LD specific processing is not required, but still possible for people who want it. Using JSON-LD as intended :) # 17:48 tantek q+ to object to "JSONLD is designed for that" # 17:48 aaronpk can we collect all the resolutions on a single wiki page or something? # 17:48 sandro .. not productive to say let's go json-ld all the way, forgetting the compromise # 17:49 tantek aaronpk, we need minutes to reflect RESOLUTIONs at the top in order to do that # 17:49 sandro Arnaud: trying to pull the rug your way is non-productive. # 17:49 Zakim tantek, you wanted to raise general re-reading feedback on AS2 and to also follow-up to eprodrom and to object to "JSONLD is designed for that" # 17:50 sandro tantek: I agree the marketing pitch is JSON-LD is designed for that. But in practice we've seen in the group, "because it's json-ld, we must do this...." THere have been so many threads in that direction, it's really unproductive. # 17:50 sandro .. I'd say it's a failure on the part of the chairs not to stop those discussion. We should be drawing that hard line. # 17:50 sandro .. It should not be the problem of this WG to adapt to JSON-LD, since the promise of JSON-LD was that it wouldn;t get in the way # 17:52 sandro tantek: I'd like the chairs and staff to agree to enforce that, summarily dismissing arguments based on the idea needing to do things for the LD part of JSON-LD # 17:52 sandro tantek: I've been seeing folks saying "because I'm using a JSON-LD processor, you must do X" # 17:54 kevinmarks is this the issue of JSON-LD rejecting some kinds of JSON, eg lists of lists, which means geojson is incompatible? # 17:54 sandro azaroth: +1 having a compromise that makes our job slightly harder is more work for the WG, but fulfils the goals, where a JSON-LD processor is optional # 17:54 tantek kevinmarks - sort of - that's the "publishers must use a subset of JSON" issue # 17:55 sandro cwebber2: Yes, it only gets complex in extensions, but still you can think in dumb json. # 17:55 sandro .. it's only if you want to be able to consume from everybody, that's when you need json-ld. # 17:56 sandro .. so it's only if you want to be able to robustly handle every extension. # 17:56 tantek interesting, so even for extensions, if you have special knowledge of particular extensions, you don't need JSONLD? # 17:56 sandro .. a lot of people are saying they don't want to do that, and that's fine, they don't have to do that. # 17:56 sandro Arnaud: Back to my point, any other issues not recorded? # 17:57 rene As I said before: I'd like to talk about the "this can be easily implemented as an extension" argument. We should have a rule on that # 17:57 sandro tantek: I proposal all mentions of json-ld in AS2-core go into a section, "Considerations for JSON-LD". # 17:57 Zakim sees cwebber, sandro on the speaker queue # 17:57 azaroth And we intend to move it out of the Model and into a document more like -core # 17:58 tantek PROPOSAL: All JSON-LD related details should go into an Appendix: Considerations for JSON-LD (similar to the section in Annotations WG spec), both typical publishers and developers should not have to worry about them. # 17:58 azaroth Sorry, more like as-vocabulary # 17:58 sandro cwebber2: I'd be fine with that, but maybe an easier approach, with less major re-architecting, is to add it to a pre-amble, -- this whole spec can be deal with like that. # 17:59 bengo My colleagues don't even know what JSON-LD is. Appendix better than preamble # 17:59 sandro tantek: expecting the editor to say "Great, send me pull requests" # 18:00 sandro jasnell: There are several mentions where I could s/json-ld/json/ without harm. Shane_ joined the channel
# 18:00 rene @bengo: colleagues not knowing about certain technologies seem no argument to me # 18:00 tantek mostly I'm seeing it in section 1.2 of AS2 Core # 18:00 sandro .. not an appendix, but in extensions, and in a section at the top. # 18:00 bengo rene: Just relevant because barrier of adoption for JSON publishers # 18:01 sandro tantek: Specifically, the proposal was about 1.2, serialization notes. # 18:01 Zakim sees sandro, cwebber on the speaker queue # 18:03 rene I have to leave for approximately 1,5 hours and try to catch up after 11:30 a.m. your time # 18:04 tantek sandro I agree your modification of my proposal with Appendix Considerations for JSONLD + Extensions sections # 18:04 rhiaro +1 to only JSON... we could put the rest in another document # 18:04 sandro sandro: I like the idea of hiding everything but plain-old-json from people, putting them into a particular couple sections. # 18:04 azaroth q+ to note related Annotation decision to only show JSON # 18:04 Zakim sees cwebber, azaroth on the speaker queue # 18:04 rhiaro I thought it was resolved to keep them *for the time being* # 18:04 Zakim sees cwebber, azaroth on the speaker queue # 18:04 sandro jasnell: I'd like to leave the tabs in, they;re useful, and we agreed in the past. # 18:05 sandro eprodrom: Not sure there's much value to talking it through more. # 18:05 tantek eprodrom: we did already talk this through and decided to keep all the tabs # 18:05 azaroth q+ to ask about testing of multiple syntaxes # 18:06 sandro cwebber2: This seems like a useful thing, but I'm concerned about whether this is a CR blocker. It's an editorial change. This meeting, my goal is to see how many CR-blockers we can knock off the queue. Let's kick those boulders off the path! # 18:06 sandro Arnaud: it's not a blocker, although it's a big change. # 18:06 tantek q+ to note I think we're talking about two different things. my proposal (+ sandro re: Extensions), and the examples tabs # 18:06 Zakim sees azaroth, tantek on the speaker queue # 18:06 sandro Arnaud: If it doesn't change compliance, we can do it later. # 18:06 Zakim sees azaroth, tantek, cwebber on the speaker queue # 18:07 Zakim azaroth, you wanted to ask about testing of multiple syntaxes # 18:07 Zakim sees tantek, cwebber on the speaker queue melvster joined the channel
# 18:07 Zakim sees tantek, cwebber, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 18:07 sandro azaroth: If there are four syntaxes in the document, testing them will be really hard. So that's a blocker for CR. # 18:08 Zakim tantek, you wanted to note I think we're talking about two different things. my proposal (+ sandro re: Extensions), and the examples tabs # 18:08 Zakim sees cwebber, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 18:08 sandro Arnaud: All these other tabs are informative. # 18:08 tantek PROPOSAL: All JSON-LD related details should go into an Appendix: Considerations for JSON-LD (similar to the section in Annotations WG spec) and also allowed in the Extensions section. Both typical publishers and developers should not have to worry about JSONLD . # 18:08 sandro tantek: two things. My proposal was to move json-ld to an appendic, which I think IS cr-blocking. # 18:10 sandro cwebber2: I think this is a great proposal, but I don't see how it will change implementations. So how is a CR blocker. # 18:11 sandro tantek: If people see it as a JSON spec, they can jump right in. If they think it's JSON-LD, they'll think they need all that tooling. # 18:11 sandro tantek: I think we'll get more implementations faster if we move JSON-LD to an appendix. # 18:12 Zakim sees cwebber, eprodrom, jasnell on the speaker queue # 18:12 melvster more likely to implement WITH JSON LD, less likely to implement without # 18:12 sandro tantek: I have specific issues I could raise on this. # 18:12 Zakim sees cwebber, eprodrom on the speaker queue kevinmarks joined the channel
# 18:13 sandro jasnell: counter-proposal -- I don't think adding an appendix would help too much. Give me an opportunity to come up with a counter proposal. # 18:13 tantek UPDATED PROPOSAL: All JSON-LD related details should go into a separate section (e.g. Appendix: Considerations for JSON-LD similar to the section in Annotations WG spec, but open to Editor alternatives) and also allowed in the Extensions section. Both typical publishers and developers should not have to worry about JSONLD. # 18:14 sandro eprodrom: We have a section, relationship to AS1, it may be simple to to lay out rel to json-ld, express our simple expections, that you should be able to produce and consume as without knowing about json-ld # 18:14 sandro .. my only reluctnance is that we have json-ld spread throughout the doc # 18:15 tantek tantek: I found it confusing reading it as a JSON developer, all the LD bits sprinkled around # 18:16 jaywink +1 for the proposal, find json-ld parts could be gathered into a separate appendix # 18:16 azaroth +1 to moving JSON-LD details to a section, appendix or otherwise # 18:16 azaroth And +1 to eprodrom for expressing the intent in the intro in an informative sense # 18:17 sandro sandro: key point is: no more sprinking of json-ld through the document # 18:17 azaroth +1 to sandro :) It should be skippable if you don't care... +1s all round # 18:17 tantek RESOLVED: All JSON-LD related details should go into a separate section (e.g. Appendix: Considerations for JSON-LD similar to the section in Annotations WG spec, but open to Editor alternatives) and also allowed in the Extensions section. Both typical publishers and developers should not have to worry about JSONLD. kevinmarks joined the channel
# 18:18 tantek aaronpk: Hi I'm Aaron Parecki, I got here from Portland # 18:18 eprodrom welcomes aaronpk ! # 18:18 tantek kevinmarks: Hi I'm Kevin Marks and you saw me on the train. # 18:19 eprodrom also welcomes kevinmarks! # 18:19 Zakim sees tantek, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 18:19 sandro sandro: does it make sense to try to make a deadline for new issues from the WG? # 18:20 sandro Arnaud: Yeah, we want all the issues on the table as soon as possible, not at the last minute # 18:20 Zakim tantek, you wanted to discuss deadline vs. other approaches # 18:20 cwebber2 sandro, how about, +1 to deadline for CR blocking issues # 18:20 cwebber2 but non-blocking CR issues of course can happen at some point # 18:20 Zakim sees eprodrom, cwebber on the speaker queue # 18:21 sandro tantek: I've seen multiple approach to convergence for CR. "I better get my issue in by this point". Or "waht is the rate of new issues coming in" then say hey, apply a deadline # 18:21 sandro .. right now it feels like we're still in the post-chair-threat, with lots of new issues coming in. # 18:21 Zakim sees eprodrom, cwebber, sandro on the speaker queue # 18:21 Zakim sees eprodrom, cwebber, sandro on the speaker queue # 18:22 sandro jasnell: let's see, new issue 1 hour ago, then 7 days, then 21 days # 18:22 sandro tantek: I think we'll get a burst of new issues at this meeting # 18:22 Zakim sees eprodrom, cwebber, sandro on the speaker queue # 18:22 Zakim sees cwebber, sandro on the speaker queue # 18:23 sandro eprodrom: On that note, I think as we get more into implementations phase, we'll see new issues # 18:23 sandro .. one question I have, we seem to have a rough process of submitting github issue when we see something wrong, we leave it up to editors to make decisions, if not palatable then take it to group. Deeper issues go to group. # 18:25 sandro sandro: clarifyiong, thje "issue" that matter for going to CR are Substantive Issues -- things needing a WG decision # 18:25 sandro Arnaud: github allows for more a agile approach, but there are some issues. # 18:26 sandro cwebber2: I like having a deadline for putting issues in # 18:26 sandro cwebber2: AS2 core hasn't change much in the past year. THe vocab doc has had a lot of tweaks # 18:27 sandro .. what big changes have their been? It seems very stable. # 18:27 bengo put on agenda for telecon # 18:27 sandro q+ sandro2 to ask about core moving separately # 18:27 Zakim sees sandro, sandro2 on the speaker queue # 18:27 sandro tantek: I suggest waiting a week before setting a deadline. # 18:28 Zakim sandro, you wanted to ask about process and to clarify goal for this meeting # 18:28 azaroth q+ to propose discussing issues and return to timeline after that # 18:28 Zakim sees sandro2, azaroth on the speaker queue # 18:30 Zakim sees sandro2, azaroth, cwebber on the speaker queue # 18:30 sandro tantek: if the thought of spec going to CR or NOTE scares you, you need to speak up right away. # 18:31 sandro tantek: we're unlikely to go CR today, but we're also unlikely to drop it down to a NOTE. # 18:32 Zakim sees sandro2, azaroth, cwebber, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 18:33 sandro Arnaud: The next hurdle is whether we can meet the exit criteria. We need sufficient implementations. We can discuss this. Two is the minimum, but seems like of ... lame... # 18:33 Zakim sandro2, you wanted to ask about core moving separately # 18:33 Zakim sees azaroth, cwebber, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 18:33 rhiaro jasnell: quick question (hopefully), answer at leisure - is there a branch more up to date than master/gh-pages? Noticed to and bto are still there and displayName isn't name in core (both of which I thought were resolved, but correct me if I'm wrong!) # 18:33 Zakim azaroth, you wanted to propose discussing issues and return to timeline after that # 18:33 Zakim sees cwebber, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 18:34 sandro jasnell: not really, core normative refers to vocab for things like object # 18:34 jasnell the current published WD is the reference poit for discussion today # 18:34 melvster wonders if there is a pointer to a list of who is implementing ... # 18:35 sandro cwebber2: cage rattling worked, but lets not have cage rattling for its own sake. # 18:35 rhiaro Aha thanks bengo, didn't look at that PR, was the next tab I had open to switch to jaywink_ joined the channel
# 18:37 eprodrom PROPOSED: Social WG will continue working on Activity Streams 2.0 in order to get it to Candidate Recommendation. # 18:38 cwebber2 should I write up a proposal for the deadline next week? # 18:38 tantek PROPOSAL: Keep AS2 work going on the Recommendation track. # 18:41 sandro azaroth: We'd like to be able to refer to AS2 collections from Annoations soon, so please keep it moving along! # 18:42 sandro PROPOSAL: Everyone will try to have substantive issues raised by next week (Dec 15) or at least will ask for an extension by then # 18:42 eprodrom s/next week/next next week/ # 18:42 tantek RESOLVED: Keep AS2 work going on the Recommendation track. # 18:42 sandro PROPOSAL: Everyone will try to have substantive issues (on AS2) raised by two weeks (Dec 15) or at least will ask for an extension by then # 18:43 sandro RESOLVED: Everyone will try to have substantive issues (on AS2) raised by two weeks (Dec 15) or at least will ask for an extension by then azaroth, bengo, azaroth_ and Shane_ joined the channel
# 19:05 rhiaro ... Asked james to look at issues during the break to come up with a list we should start with # 19:05 rhiaro jasnell: Will we have time to talk about testing this morning? # 19:06 rhiaro ... Issues for an hour, test suite for an hour # 19:06 rhiaro tantek: We've finished the first item - CR vs note kevinmarks3 joined the channel
# 19:06 rhiaro ... One other item on there, didn't capture testing framework # 19:06 rhiaro eprodrom: I'd like to present the testing framework that chris and I worked up, get comment on it, talk about what to do next, what makes sense # 19:06 rhiaro ... as we have more implementations, make sure we're working towards that test suite # 19:07 rhiaro Arnaud: My proposal is to use next hour for tackling issues on AS2 # 19:07 tantek added AS2 testing framework present, feedback, architecturally what next - Evan to agenda # 19:07 rhiaro ... Then switch to other two items - jf2, and test suite # 19:07 bengo tantek: I'd like to add a (perhaps brief) agenda item for sometime today or tomorrow, which is "Does the Social WG expect to draft a 'client-side API' specification as described in the charter?" (and what does that mean? HTTP API or WebIDL API?) # 19:08 rhiaro jasnell: We have 4 open issues in the w3c tracker and one raised issue # 19:08 rhiaro ... We should get those out of the way, then go to github issues # 19:08 rhiaro ... On github, we start with ones that primarily effect core, just a handful # 19:08 rhiaro ... Then there's another group which deal with vocabulary # 19:09 rhiaro tantek: do you only want to look at old issues, or look at new ones from today? # 19:09 rhiaro jasnell: if you came up with new issues reading through it, open a new one in github and we'll get to it as we have time # 19:09 rhiaro eprodrom: Makes sense. Rather not have issues come up in person that we don't record as github issues # 19:10 rhiaro jasnell: What I'd like to do is go through w3c tracker first, then go through github oldest to newest # 19:10 rhiaro ... Then hopefully as we're going through we get through them fast enough we can get to new ones # 19:10 trackbot issue-46 -- AS2.0 tries to address some Social API responsibilities -- raised # 19:10 rhiaro ... Believe this is specifically with regards to thinks like paging # 19:10 rhiaro ... We've had prior resolutions about paging and links, I propose we don't open this # 19:11 rhiaro jasnell: we've dealt with this several times already, to no longer discuss # 19:11 rhiaro ... Paging model in the spec is what we're going with # 19:11 azaroth +1 to closing issue-46 # 19:11 rhiaro sandro: so paging at two levles of the protocol # 19:12 sandro PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-46 as redundant according to jasnell. Yes, there might be paging at multiple levels of the protocol. # 19:13 sandro RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-46 as redundant according to jasnell. Yes, there might be paging at multiple levels of the protocol. # 19:13 rhiaro RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-46 as redundant according to jasnell. Yes, there might be paging at multiple levels of the protocol. # 19:13 rhiaro ... Last discussed about a year ago, raised by tantek # 19:14 rhiaro Arnaud: what do we need to do to close this issue? # 19:14 rhiaro tantek: We could close the issue as we accepted an ED that resolves the issue # 19:14 azaroth Link to the ED please? # 19:14 rhiaro tantek: I agree it has no impact on the spec in good faith # 19:14 rhiaro sandro: Doesn't it say you can leave out the types # 19:14 rhiaro tantek: I Don't know how you would interpret that as a change # 19:15 rhiaro tantek: My draft allows for types to be omitted # 19:15 rhiaro tantek: my spec says if types *are* omitted, here's how to get one # 19:15 azaroth kevinmarks: Many thanks # 19:15 rhiaro sandro: even if your spec becomes a rec, people will be able to do conforming AS2 without post-type discovery # 19:17 sandro and so ISSUE-4 can be closed, safe in the belief that post-type-discovery will proceed as warranted. # 19:17 wilkie I'm happy the working group discussion is so lulling # 19:17 tantek kevinmarks I don't think you can present+ people that are asleep. # 19:18 cwebber2 tantek: college students everywhere attempt to refute your assertion # 19:18 rhiaro would like to request off-topic comments in emotes, please :) # 19:19 jasnell if those are activity types it should be as:Awoke and as:Sleep # 19:19 rhiaro ... Believe we just resolved this by not opening other issue # 19:19 Arnaud PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-37, as is - no alignment # 19:19 tantek goes to see if he can multitask and file github issues while paying attention IRL # 19:19 rhiaro ... If we want to go with LDP Paging we can look at that at API level # 19:20 rhiaro RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-37, as is - no alignment # 19:20 rhiaro jasnell: Next, issue-38, do we need to add a version number to context uri # 19:21 rhiaro sandro: How do you deal with... if you ever add a term to AS2 and somebody has made an extension that uses that same term.. # 19:21 rhiaro jasnell: Is there any expectation that once this WG is done and we've published this, that they would want to do another version later? # 19:21 rhiaro sandro: Yes! Vocab is clearly not completelyd escriptive # 19:22 rhiaro jasnell: Can these new terms be introduced by extensions? # 19:22 rhiaro sandro: Where would they be? Wouldn't be standard? # 19:22 rhiaro cwebber2: At this point you can go JSON-LD crazy and add your own # 19:22 kevinmarks descriptive of entire human existence - this is Maciej's critique # 19:22 rhiaro sandro: But if someobdy does it outside of w3c, what's the point? We lose the interoperability # 19:23 rhiaro jasnell: If we're only talking about adding new terms, that can be done in a backwards incompatible way # 19:23 rhiaro ... Existing implementations can already ignore anything they don't understand # 19:23 rhiaro ... If a new term is added they can ignore it # 19:23 rhiaro sandro: Some large players comes up with something they like, called Loves - the loves extension gets deployed cos likes aren't strong enough # 19:23 rhiaro ... Gets deployed across some large subsection # 19:23 Zakim sees tantek, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 19:23 rhiaro ... And it might conflict with extensions already otu there # 19:24 rhiaro ... We say you cannot redefine anything in context # 19:24 rhiaro ... As far as... whether we should care about that conflict? I'm not convinced # 19:24 rhiaro tantek: all @context handling is completely optional # 19:24 aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme can you hear the other side of the room okay? # 19:24 rhiaro ... So to maintain backcompat if we're adding or changing term sin AS2, the requirement is even stricter than worrying about context versioning, but worrying about spec versioning # 19:24 rhiaro ... And breaking json implementations that literally follow vocab hard coded in spec # 19:25 rhiaro ... That constraint already constraints us sufficiently that version numbers in context is irrelevant # 19:25 rhiaro ... To solve this problem we need to look at the spe cand make sure it doesn't conflict with any existing terms # 19:25 kevinmarks says "So here's to approximate, incomplete social web standards." # 19:25 azaroth q+ to note that would be as3 # 19:25 Zakim sees eprodrom, azaroth on the speaker queue # 19:25 rhiaro sandro: The only solution is to have a registry used by all extensions # 19:25 rhiaro ... Any prominent extensions have to claim a keyword # 19:26 Zakim sees eprodrom, azaroth, jasnell on the speaker queue # 19:26 rhiaro ... We don't need to version context, as we're already overconstrained by json-only requirement # 19:26 rhiaro ... If you want to change a term in the spec, you can only do so in a back compatible way with the spec, the spec is the registry # 19:26 Zakim sees eprodrom, azaroth, jasnell, cwebber on the speaker queue # 19:26 rhiaro ... html uses the hyphen so people can add elements # 19:27 rhiaro tantek: Feel like that's a different issue, agree that that is an issue # 19:27 rhiaro kevinmarks: you only need a version number if you're going to break things # 19:27 Zakim sees azaroth, jasnell, cwebber on the speaker queue # 19:27 rhiaro eprodrom: I wanted to point out that the reason we may need to break thing sin the future is not apparent to us right now # 19:27 tantek jasnell, but they have different mime types right? # 19:28 rhiaro ... Sometimes, seeming emergency situations, if we have wide enough deployment of AS2 that it becomes important for security or other considerations that we're not seeing from our vantage point now # 19:28 rhiaro ... We will be glad to be able to do breaking backward compatible changes # 19:28 jasnell AS1 has no official mime type actually. there is an informal mime type that has been used by convention # 19:28 rhiaro ... That said, those are rare occasions, usually are security issues # 19:28 kevinmarks AS1 can only be processed as AS2 if you mung it to JSON-LD and back, right? # 19:28 rhiaro ... Does end up causing a lot of compatibility problems for implementors, where they have to be aware of different contexts # 19:28 tantek can JSON-only AS2 processors consume AS1? or do they require @context processing to alias things? # 19:28 Zakim azaroth, you wanted to note that would be as3 # 19:28 rhiaro ... Personal feeling, if there's not a strong reason not to do it, I'd love to just throw a 2 in there andhope we never have to use it # 19:28 Zakim sees jasnell, cwebber on the speaker queue # 19:29 rhiaro azaroth: If we were going to change something normatively, surely that would be an AS3 rather than AS2.1 # 19:29 rhiaro ... at which point, future selves can decide what the new uri for the new context is # 19:29 tantek please don't set 1 - that will be confusing with AS1 # 19:29 rhiaro Arnaud: good point, decide later on if we keep same uri or create a new one # 19:29 rhiaro jasnell: also possible if we do produce a new version with this context, with its own url/namespace, can import the existing one and add teh existing terms # 19:30 rhiaro ... So the existing normative context doesn't have to change # 19:30 rhiaro ... New implementations can use that, assuming you're using LD processing # 19:30 rhiaro ... If you're not using that, we already say you're going to run into problems with extensions anyway # 19:30 rhiaro ... Already clear that LD is the extension mechanism # 19:30 rhiaro ... If you're not doing that and new things are introduced that you don't understand, you're on your own # 19:30 azaroth luxuryproblems++ # 19:31 kevinmarks bengo, could your as1 context be used to make a JSON compliant as2 version of an as1 stream? # 19:31 rhiaro cwebber2: If AS2 adoption grows so well that the world converges around a new set of terms that ar eso good that everybody just wants them in an official recommended way, couldn't we make a new vocabulary that's called ActivityStreams-Foo, where Foo is whatever super cool hot new thing in the future that we have no capacity to envision # 19:31 rhiaro ... This is a bit different from the security issue # 19:31 rhiaro ... For most extensions, there's nothing blocking us from doing AS-whatever # 19:31 bengo kevinmarks My Livefyre ontology? Maps to As2 not at1 # 19:31 rhiaro jasnell: We already have a few of those terms starting to collect, things pulled out vocab recently # 19:31 bengo kevinmarks our implemented product is AS1 with no context # 19:32 rhiaro ... that I'm starting to put in extension vocab to serve that purpose # 19:32 tantek q+ to note that that incorporation of popular extensions into a revision of the spec is something other specs in this space have had trouble with, e.g. RSS, Atom actions # 19:32 Arnaud PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-38, leaving that to be decided later on if deemed necessary # 19:32 bengo kevinmarks no but james made that # 19:33 sandro "@context": "http://www.w3.org/ns/activitystreams", # 19:34 rhiaro jasnell: Last year when we minted this url, the question of whether we should put a year in it, and decided not to do that # 19:34 rhiaro eprodrom: this sounds like we're leaving the issue to be decided on later? # 19:34 azaroth +1 to closing for AS2 # 19:34 rhiaro ... What 'later' refers to is for future *versions* # 19:35 sandro -0 I don't think this is well enough understood, but whatever. # 19:35 jasnell sandro: noted, fwiw I understand the concern that you're voicing but I'm just not convinced that it's a problem we need to solve right now # 19:36 sandro this sentence is misleading: Following are three examples of activities with varying degrees of detail. Each of the examples uses an implied JSON-LD @context equal to that provided here. # 19:36 Arnaud RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-38, leaving that to be decided later on, when a new version of the spec is developed, if deemed necessary # 19:36 eprodrom That's clear to me # 19:36 jasnell sandro: as an editing point, I plan to update the links to the context in the document to the official URL once it's been fully updated # 19:36 Zakim tantek, you wanted to note that that incorporation of popular extensions into a revision of the spec is something other specs in this space have had trouble with, e.g. RSS, Atom # 19:37 rhiaro tantek: trying to do editor requested workflow, to capture a different point that sandro brought up rene joined the channel
# 19:37 rhiaro ... We assume AS2 succeeds, becomes popular, and industry starts to develop widely implemented extensions # 19:37 rhiaro ... Such taht we have convergence that people want to standardise extensions # 19:37 rhiaro ... How do we ensure that that lifecycle proceeds smoothly? # 19:38 rhiaro ... Now, in this space, we have prior examples of failures, RSS and Atom # 19:38 rhiaro ... never made it to the popular extensions became a standard, thing # 19:38 rhiaro ... never a mechansim defined for how your extension got to transition to becoming official # 19:38 rhiaro ... Would encourage this group to think more in terms of optimisitc extensions becoming popular and being added to the spec # 19:39 rhiaro ... Similarly, html wg had process which in some cases worked (I don't know what that is) # 19:39 bengo tantek is there a github issue for this? # 19:39 rhiaro ... Sandro had the straw proposal that here's a naming convention # 19:39 rene back in the irc and also on talky,io # 19:39 rhiaro ... Only going to raise the issue as a need, don't have a proposal # 19:39 rhiaro ... Only raising that because sandro brought it up # 19:39 trackbot issue-45 -- Conflicts between json-ld and mf2 examples -- open # 19:39 rhiaro jasnell: Goes back to the non-normative examples, discrepencies # 19:40 rhiaro ... to microformats examples. They're closer, but still not a normative mapping between mf2 and as2 model, still not one-to-one # 19:40 rhiaro ... I would prefer to handle this as an editorial issue # 19:40 rhiaro ... If folks want to make continued improvements to make a closer match, open a PR # 19:40 rhiaro ... But before submitting, double check you don't introduce other errors # 19:40 rhiaro ... So many changes, difficult to review and catch all those errors # 19:40 rhiaro ... So just double check that if you're changing syntax stuff that everything is correct # 19:41 Arnaud PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-45, as "good enough", PRs to be submitted for any further improvements # 19:41 rhiaro ... But I prefer ot handle this as an editorial issue and close in the tracker # 19:41 Arnaud RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-45, as "good enough", PRs to be submitted for any further improvements # 19:41 rhiaro Arnaud: that takes care of w3c tracker, switch to github # 19:42 rhiaro jasnell: there are a numer. 14 marked as proposals # 19:43 Arnaud PROPOSED: Close ISSUE #248, renaming displayName to name # 19:43 rhiaro eprodrom: as someone who implemented as1, since we are doing a lot of backwards compat breaking, I don't see us using name for anything else, so this makes a lot of sense # 19:43 Zakim kevinmarks, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...' # 19:43 rhiaro bengo: I know there's part of the spec that compares with as1.. # 19:44 rhiaro ... for anyone who wants to process an as1 document as as2, there's a supplemental context that would map displayName to name # 19:44 rhiaro jasnell: Yes, it should. I'll make that change. # 19:44 rhiaro kevinmarks: the history of this was that displayName was a function in open social so we had to call displayName to join first name and last name # 19:44 Arnaud RESOLVED: Close ISSUE #248, renaming displayName to name # 19:45 eprodrom laughingly accuses cwebber2 of ballot-stuffing # 19:46 rhiaro tantek: quick question, I filed issue regarding lifecycle/naming. Quick thumbs up / thumbs down for naming convention, of issue. Right method of filing? # 19:46 Arnaud PROPOSED: Close ISSUE #247, removing title attribute # 19:46 rhiaro ... Okay, so renaming title. Short summary, name has always been plain text, default if they don't support markup. Title was always supposed to be marked up version of name # 19:46 rhiaro ... Aaron suggested we remove title and just have name, summary and content # 19:46 tantek As someone who has historically included HTML markup in his Atom entry titles and has broken TONS of Feed Readers - in my experience implementations get this WRONG # 19:47 rhiaro ... Simplifies vocab, but we lose ability to specify markup version of title, but I have never seen an implementation that actually uses that # 19:47 bengo +1 iff 'title' is reserved in future and equivalencies set up in context and AS1 interpretation (non-normative) bit # 19:47 azaroth No one expects the marked-up title # 19:48 Arnaud RESOLVED: Close ISSUE #247, removing title attribute # 19:48 rhiaro cwebber2: would this end up taking over... if you look at pump.io, we put name where title currently is # 19:48 rhiaro ... that content would still hold the main content? # 19:49 eprodrom salutes kevinmarks for best use of "trichotomy" this morning # 19:49 rhiaro ... Describes an indirect link to that resource # 19:49 rhiaro ... Link object allows us to describe properties of the Link, not the resource it's pointing to # 19:49 rhiaro ... Within that object we use href to point to the resuorce bieng referenced # 19:49 azaroth q+ to question mediaType as property of the /link/ # 19:49 Zakim sees tantek, azaroth on the speaker queue # 19:49 rhiaro ... We use url elsewhere as a way of pointing to a link # 19:50 rhiaro ... value of url is either a string or a Link Object # 19:50 rhiaro ... Link Object can have href to point to actual url # 19:50 rhiaro ... My preference would be to keep one distinct meaning for url # 19:50 Zakim sees tantek, azaroth on the speaker queue # 19:50 rhiaro kevinmarks: Examples are images and things. Would it be src rather than href? # 19:51 rhiaro ... The other thing is, we now have the ability to link to multiple variations o fthings. How do we represent that? # 19:51 rhiaro jasnell: The url property can have multiple values # 19:51 rhiaro ... If I have an image object with a url, I can describe image in abstract way,a nd use url to point to multiple representations, resolutions # 19:51 rhiaro ... Each one of those values within url is an as:Link # 19:51 rhiaro ... with the href property used to actually point to the actual location # 19:51 rhiaro kevinmarks: But doesn't necessarily catch all things in source? # 19:52 rhiaro azaroth: Clarification - the link allows us to describ eproperties of the link, but not resource it's pointing to # 19:52 rhiaro ... Seems that the majority of properties actually describe resource # 19:52 rhiaro jasnell: Would be hints, just like what you can do with an anchor tag or a link header # 19:52 rhiaro ... Hints to what you're looking at, but not necessarily true # 19:53 rhiaro azaroth: Doesn't seem clear to me. Can we clarifiy? # 19:53 rhiaro jasnell: Can you open an issue to clarify that? # 19:53 rhiaro aaronpk: Specific example. I agree that the examples all given here seem to be describing the resource. The most common case being width and height of images # 19:53 rhiaro ... What's getting common now with high res displays, is double resolution image at the url, and image tag is served with width and height # 19:53 tantek there's also src-set, and <picture> element that solve this in HTML # 19:54 rhiaro ... Link object might have width/height of 100 but the image might actually be 200px # 19:54 tantek would prefer not to do this in a completely different way # 19:54 kevinmarks though srcset is more complex in that it has both 2x and width targetting # 19:54 rhiaro jasnell: issue to describe that, then will take as editorial # 19:55 rhiaro bengo: a part of the existing language, if hyperlinked to qualified link relation documentation might clarify # 19:55 tantek q+ to note src-set, and <picture> element that solve this in HTML, would prefer to re-use one of those approaches/structure rather than have something halfway # 19:55 Zakim tantek, you wanted to note src-set, and <picture> element that solve this in HTML, would prefer to re-use one of those approaches/structure rather than have something halfway # 19:55 Arnaud PROPOSED: Close ISSUE #245, keeping both url and href separate, clarifying the spec # 19:55 rhiaro Arnaud: seems like we're getting convergence to spec being clarified # 19:55 cwebber2 I'm kind of confused as to what solution we're looking at # 19:55 rhiaro tantek: challenge I have with this issue is that it's hitting the wrong middle ground # 19:55 rhiaro ... Rather than specifiying width and height (because it's informative)... I don't think it's helpful # 19:55 bengo width and height is red herring. mediaType hints are really where this is nice # 19:56 rhiaro ... You need to take an approach that's already been solved, like html with srcset on image and picture element # 19:56 rhiaro ... So, two directions. One, drop width height stuff and literally have image b ea url. 'This is an image, no claims about dimensions' # 19:56 rhiaro ... Other side is, if your intent is to provide images of a particular resolution and hav ea particular behaviour, lets reuse solutions that have been implemented, with srcset and picture element # 19:56 rhiaro ... Rather than trying to have something half way # 19:56 rhiaro Arnaud: AMP are doing the opposite, requiring width and height for performance purposes # 19:57 rene +1 on not making any suggestions on display size # 19:57 azaroth Sorry, was listening to tantek's concern :) # 19:57 rene I consider that part of formatting and that should be kept outside of AS2 # 19:57 rhiaro jasnell: What I would ask, about the basic idea, is take a stab at a concrete example of what it would look like in this syntax: I have an image object, I want it available at multiple resoultions. What would that look like in the json? A strawman would make it a lot easier to work out what to do. # 19:57 rhiaro ... I do think there's value in havin gan value of image that's a single url # 19:58 rhiaro ... Both useful to have image as a url, and also a solution for the use case you described # 19:58 bengo tantek { image: 'url' } is valid # 19:58 rhiaro ... If you want to provide an additional metadata then the value of url can be an object that describes that link # 19:59 rhiaro ... Most common case, the value of url will be a string # 19:59 rhiaro aaronpk: I didn't realise what was happening with the use of the two terms and that it was intentionally different # 19:59 Arnaud PROPOSED: Close ISSUE #245, keeping both url and href separate, clarifying the spec # 20:00 rhiaro eprodrom: we were just talking about in Atom and other places, where 99% there would be no markup # 20:00 rhiaro ... Are we setting up something like this for our url property? # 20:00 rhiaro ... Mostly it's just a string, but there are legitmate use cases. JSON objects could blow up consumers that are looking for strings. # 20:00 rhiaro jasnell: The response to that is, we know for a fact we have this use case wher emutliple resolutions of the image need to be provided # 20:01 rhiaro ... The spec currently deals with that and allows for that use case # 20:01 rhiaro ... If we want to refactor that part to make it follow the most common case, we need a proposed solution to address the other case # 20:01 tantek if we want to refactor the complex case, let's please base it on src-set # 20:01 rene @rhiaro: I don't understand how we can talk about breaking anything. I didn't know we are supposed to be backwards compatible to anything # 20:01 Arnaud PROPOSED: Close ISSUE #245, keeping both url and href separate, clarifying the spec # 20:02 tantek +0 I don't understand it enough to disagree. trust rest of wg consensus. # 20:02 Arnaud RESOLVED: Close ISSUE #245, keeping both url and href separate, clarifying the spec # 20:02 bengo url: [Link(), Link() ] useful for specifying linkRelation of those urls # 20:02 rhiaro Arnaud: we're out of time based on what we agreed earlier # 20:02 rhiaro ... Switch gear, then we can go back to this if we have more time before lunch # 20:02 rhiaro eprodrom: Could we instead reserve half an hour to discuss testing? # 20:03 rhiaro jasnell: most remaining are vocabulary not syntax # 20:03 tantek propose 30 min each on agenda items for 12:00-13:00 # 20:03 rene I would be glad if we could talk about the issues raised by me before lunch, because after your lunchtime it's 11 p.m. in Germany # 20:03 rhiaro Arnaud: big part of getting to CR is developoing a test suite # 20:04 rhiaro ... To get to CR we don't have to have a full fledged test suite # 20:04 rhiaro ... We have a link to the test suite, call for implementations and ask them to run against the test suite # 20:04 tantek looks Arnaud is doing items in reverse of the order on the agenda # 20:04 rhiaro ... And a link for people to provide implementation reports # 20:04 bengo Test suite of just Social SYntax? or are we talking all? # 20:04 rhiaro ... Someobdy will have to have the task of gathering these reports and putting them together # 20:04 eprodrom bengo: just AS2 # 20:04 tantek q+ point of order re: rene's issues, jf2 testing framework # 20:04 Zakim tantek, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...' # 20:04 rhiaro ... So we can present to w3c management when we claim we have met exit criteria # 20:05 tantek q+ to ask point of order re: rene's issues, jf2 testing framework # 20:05 Zakim sees eprodrom, tantek on the speaker queue # 20:05 rhiaro tantek: if we're going to reorder, that should be an explicit action, due to timezone of remote participants # 20:06 bengo PROPOSAL: reorder agenda to keep AS fresh in our brains without loading new context of jf2 # 20:07 Zakim tantek, you wanted to ask point of order re: rene's issues, jf2 testing framework # 20:07 azaroth kevinmarks: I can't be here tomorrow, so would be good to discuss admin item re Annotation WG this afternoon if possible # 20:07 rhiaro rene: I have a hard time following the audio, so following in irc # 20:08 rhiaro ... not sure if it's my turn to speak on issues, or still talking about agenda? # 20:08 rhiaro Arnaud: we'r enot talking about AS2 issues any more # 20:08 rhiaro rene: makes more sense to talk about the rule before # 20:08 rhiaro rene: the question is that james often argues that things could be easily implemented as extensions. My question is whether this arguement is a group one, or when it can be applied? # 20:09 rhiaro ... My main concern for a standard like AS2 is assuirng some kind of interoperability, the worst thing that can happen is we have two implementations that all pass th etests, but they dont' interop with each other # 20:10 rhiaro ... would new types improve on interop, or an extension mechanism that falls back to default type doesn't improve interop, this would be a good criteria to decide whether to integrate an additional object type or activity type or not # 20:10 tantek rene, is this filed in github? it does seem worthy of capturing # 20:10 rhiaro ... as far as I understood it, that makes it easier for object types to postpone them to extensions # 20:10 rhiaro ... my preferred way of doing that would be to keep an appendix of proposed object types, so people can reuse extensions # 20:10 rhiaro Arnaud: goign to have to interrupt, we have moved on to another topic # 20:10 rhiaro ... This seems to be worth time and discussion # 20:11 rhiaro ... Don't mean to imply otherwise. Do we have an open issue on this? # 20:11 cwebber2 rene: we could also discuss next week if worst comes to worst right? # 20:11 rhiaro ... This should be recorded as an open issue so we can get to it eventually # 20:11 rhiaro ... Unfortunately we don't have time, trying to keep up with agenda # 20:11 rhiaro eprodrom: testing - two levels of interop for AS2 # 20:12 rhiaro ... Applications that are publishing AS2 on the web # 20:12 rhiaro ... With the guess that there will probably be many more applications that use aS2 than libraries # 20:12 rhiaro ... We have one test tool already which is the validator that was put together by JP # 20:13 rhiaro ... I believe that uses the javascript implementation already, and just takes a url and parse and dump out the information about that url # 20:13 rhiaro ... Sorry, if it's an okay as2 document, not valid # 20:13 rhiaro ... My suggestion is we continue to keep that running and keep it useful # 20:13 rhiaro ... THe implementations that we're going to see over the next few months, mayb enext 6-12 # 20:14 rhiaro ... we have js libraries that have existed before, as well as a currently bitrotting java library # 20:14 rhiaro ... all of these are the first line of implemenations that we need to test # 20:14 rhiaro ... probably the most valuable places for us to put our test effort # 20:14 rhiaro ... one question for those who have been through this process before, is whether testing at that level is what we're looking for in implementation tests? # 20:14 rhiaro ... Testing a library that produces and consumes as2 # 20:14 rhiaro ... Without necessarily publishing it on the web # 20:14 jasnell there are some changes that have not yet been fully discussed (re: the revised language around the JSON-LD requirements) # 20:15 rhiaro kevinmarks: what is it translating from and to? # 20:15 rhiaro eprodrom: expectation that it would be using an internal representation for programming language it's using # 20:15 rhiaro ... eg. js one parses into objects, python into in-memory objects, in that programming language # 20:15 rhiaro ... But there is an interesting quesiton of if we are trying to test it, how do we test that internal representation # 20:15 azaroth q+ to note that internal model isn't normative and hence isn't testable? # 20:15 Zakim sees cwebber, azaroth on the speaker queue # 20:16 rhiaro ... The tack that chris and I took is that we would have a commandline interface as inteface between the test suite and the implementation melvster joined the channel
# 20:16 rhiaro ... that the testing suite would basically be spawing out a stub commandline programme that we assume uses the library implementation # 20:16 rhiaro ... it calls it with certain commandline options # 20:16 rhiaro ... so will expect certain output back from the stub # 20:16 rhiaro ... the question is, do you understand this josn? # 20:16 rhiaro ... if you understand this json, you will be able to tell me the type of this activity # 20:17 rhiaro ... and it will return the type of this activity # 20:17 rhiaro ... so it is testing any level of understanding on the part of that library # 20:18 rhiaro ... There may be some libraries that only implement one or other sides of this conversation # 20:18 rhiaro ... Some that only produce, some that only parse # 20:18 rhiaro ... There's an interface listed for waht those stubs need to do # 20:18 rhiaro ... They'll eitehr get as2 json as standard input, and a request in commandline interface # 20:18 rhiaro ... or they will be for the producer, it will be passed all the information as commandline activity and it should output as2 json on stdout # 20:18 rhiaro ... that's not the only way that this could work # 20:18 rhiaro ... We could do a web interface rather than commandline # 20:19 rhiaro ... overhead of producing commandline input and output is a lot lower than web # 20:19 Zakim sees cwebber, kevinmarks on the speaker queue # 20:19 rhiaro ... but what I'd like to do is get us to a point where we agree that this mechanism makes sense, or if we think another mechanism makes sense, that we get to that, because I'd like to put more time into putting more test cases into this framework # 20:19 rhiaro ... but don't want to do that if this is not the right way to go # 20:19 rhiaro Arnaud: I do want to point out that there are two aspects to this # 20:20 rhiaro ... At the end of the day, what does it mean to be compiant with the spec? It's a format # 20:20 rhiaro ... It's kind of.. the challenge is how do we test compliance without requiring a specific API # 20:20 rhiaro ... We can choose to provide a test harness or not # 20:20 tantek it's a question of what is an implementation, for the purposes of exiting CR # 20:20 rhiaro ... We could have a collection of them in different languages, and people can use them or not # 20:20 rhiaro cwebber2: I think this is also one fo the things proposed is that ther eare different formats that might be pushed forward # 20:21 rhiaro ... Presumably what we're going to do is what we demand that everyone do # 20:21 azaroth q+ to suggest json-schema ? # 20:21 Zakim sees kevinmarks, azaroth on the speaker queue # 20:21 rhiaro ... so we have some structure for tests, it would be interesting to get a sense, even if you're not an as2 person and might go in another direction, we could still use your help about direction of tests # 20:21 rhiaro ... Because that's probably the direction that we'll hope everybody goes # 20:21 Zakim sees kevinmarks, azaroth on the speaker queue # 20:21 rhiaro ... (including testing for alternatives to as2) # 20:22 rhiaro kevinmarks: two models - universal feed parser test suite # 20:22 rhiaro ... Python based, defines a very rich test suite with several thousand test cases for mapping things # 20:22 rhiaro ... it defines here's the input, output should look like this # 20:22 rhiaro ... Other pattern that we foudn useful was defining a set of test cases for mapping microformats into parsed json. Doing this on the web was really useful, we could cross test between implementations # 20:23 rhiaro ... Wrapping a web server around the commandline thing is really valuable # 20:23 rhiaro ... If you can do it on the web so we can just feed urls, that's really useful # 20:23 azaroth +1 to having web front end # 20:23 Zakim azaroth, you wanted to suggest json-schema ? # 20:24 rhiaro azaroth: json schema - should be possible to describe requirements # 20:24 rhiaro ... but json schema, most of the implementations currently available do not implement 100% of json schema spec # 20:24 rhiaro ... and some aspects of json-ld serialization, and we support some propertis with either or, many json schema implementations don't understand that # 20:24 rhiaro ... in theory that should be possible, in practice it's not # 20:25 rhiaro azaroth: json schema is a json document that describes what another json document should look like # 20:25 kevinmarks the mainline one has been stripping tests out and dropping support # 20:25 rhiaro ... the python implementation that I've used does support union # 20:25 rhiaro eprodrom: so what we would do is say a producer has produced some as2 json, we would use json schema to validate it, but it would not test parsers # 20:26 rhiaro cwebber2: when I first started working on first version, the thing that ended up becoming my implementaiton of as2, I started writing a validator, and evan pointed out a validator is not the same thing as what we need # 20:26 rhiaro ... but we actually want to see whether some sort of action is correct right? # 20:26 rhiaro azaroth: but the actions taken by user agents in response to the format is not normatively testable? # 20:26 rhiaro cwebber2: that starts to become api territory # 20:27 rhiaro ... Theoretically we're writing a format test suite, not a validator, not an api test suite # 20:27 Zakim sees bengo, sandro, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 20:27 Zakim sees bengo, sandro, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 20:27 Zakim sees sandro, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 20:27 rhiaro bengo: json schema useful building block, but it only does json # 20:28 rhiaro ... wanted to express support of general idea of test suite shell interface to facilitate many language implementaitons # 20:28 rhiaro ... there's something either in npm or node core, a test suite that is a series of shell scripts with exit code 0 or 1, works or doesn't # 20:28 eprodrom tantek: is talky broken? # 20:28 rhiaro sandro: You have a framework. Do you have a list of tests? # 20:29 rhiaro ... Idea would be.. issues to start adding the rest of them # 20:29 rhiaro ... So all the examples from the document should be in there # 20:29 rhiaro ... Then also if there are other interoperability problems that come up, we should add as test cases too # 20:29 rhiaro ... That would be the point of having tests in this framework snarfed joined the channel
# 20:30 rhiaro ... For other document formats, say css or html, there are tests for interoperability means parsing as well as producing # 20:30 rhiaro ... if we ignore parsing, that simplifies our effort in testing quite a lot # 20:30 rhiaro ... but not sure if that's somethign we can do # 20:30 rhiaro Arnaud: good segue for what I wanted to bring up # 20:30 rhiaro ... Primary goal is to be able to report implementations that are compliant # 20:30 rhiaro ... First level to achieve that is to let people make claims # 20:31 rhiaro ... We should try to provide some way to test this so we can report to w3c management with some facts # 20:31 rhiaro ... In this regard, you could have a list of documents that you say to be compliant you should be able to consume all of this # 20:31 rhiaro ... we could have a validator that says if you're producing an as2 document it should be validating against this # 20:31 rhiaro ... the validator goes so far, if you validate then you're compliant # 20:32 rhiaro ... other aspect is, we might want to have test suite to help developers to figure out compliance # 20:32 azaroth q+ to suggest extracting all examples from specs to act as input for parser testing # 20:32 Zakim sees tantek, sandro, azaroth on the speaker queue # 20:32 rhiaro ... whether we develop a harness, that's another level # 20:32 rhiaro ... the more we do the better, but in terms of what is required, it's this notion of being able to report on implementations # 20:32 rhiaro ... Bringing that up because I don't want us to lose sight of that # 20:33 Zakim sees sandro, azaroth on the speaker queue # 20:33 rhiaro tantek: the importance of keeping that focus in mind cannot be understated # 20:33 rhiaro ... By exiting CR we are making the claim that everything in the spec has been implemented by at least two or more implementaitons # 20:33 rhiaro ... Not necessarily all in one implementation # 20:34 rhiaro ... There's no definition of 'implementation' - is it a lbirary, is it a parser? # 20:34 rhiaro ... Would encourage the group to consider real world implementations as possible # 20:34 rhiaro ... To say, hey we have an implementation that meets an early use case is a bar to aim for to be taken seriously # 20:34 rhiaro ... Libraries ar eunlikely to meet end user use cases # 20:35 rhiaro ... There were plenty of different xml formats that did exactly what arnaud said - it's xml, we already have a parser so it already passed # 20:35 rhiaro ... But they were useless. Haven't implemented something real. # 20:35 rhiaro ... Want to warn against being overly confident of only having libraries and parsers # 20:35 Zakim sees sandro, azaroth, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 20:35 Zakim sees sandro, azaroth, eprodrom, jasnell on the speaker queue # 20:35 rhiaro ... To clos ethe loop to real world use cases # 20:35 Zakim sees azaroth, eprodrom, jasnell on the speaker queue # 20:36 rhiaro ... What comes to my mind .. I don't know how to do an automated test # 20:36 rhiaro sandro: that doesn't achieve tantek and arnaud's goals # 20:36 rhiaro ... So the test I'd like see - here's an example feed form the WG. it gets displayed through some software. I as a human read that. I re enter at by acting in software, to recreate the same feed # 20:36 rhiaro ... That way I've tested the consumer and producer software bblfish joined the channel
# 20:37 rhiaro ... Every possible thing in the feed is a thing can see and understand. Everything you can produce is a thing that a human can do. # 20:37 rhiaro ... This stuff is really useful once you get to the api level # 20:37 rhiaro sandro: the entering stuff I'm going out on... let's just test the consumer # 20:37 rhiaro ... the consuming software should be able to take any kind of feed and give something to a human # 20:38 jasnell AS2 does not define any normative requirements that can be tested by a user agent # 20:38 rhiaro sandro: what's the alternative? That's what html and css did # 20:38 jasnell it doesn't define any display requirements, any use requirements # 20:38 rhiaro tantek: at the end of the day you have to have a human look at it # 20:39 rhiaro tantek: html5 has a test suite, it is manually testable, most of it is automatable, but a human can go to any test case in their browser and see if their browser can pass this test or not # 20:39 rhiaro sandro: the tests were cleverly designed. Took many years to figure that out # 20:39 jasnell for instance, it does not say, "this like activity should be displayed like this, implementations must pay attention to these properties, and present the information in a particular way" # 20:39 rhiaro tantek: if AS2 is 'just a format' like html, I can direct my AS2 browser (aka a feed reader) at an activity stream, you should see x # 20:39 rhiaro cwebber2: still requires an api implementation # 20:39 rhiaro eprodrom: so testing some kind of AS2 to renderer that shows object in reader/browser # 20:39 azaroth cwebber: You could read off of disk, rather than pull from online? # 20:40 rhiaro ... Interesting, valuable use case... I'm not sure all implelmentors will be generating human readable feeds that are supposed to be something you look at # 20:40 Zakim sees azaroth, eprodrom, jasnell, bengo on the speaker queue # 20:40 rhiaro sandro: what are they going to be generating? # 20:40 rhiaro Arnaud: we need to focus direction, we're out of time # 20:40 Zakim sees azaroth, eprodrom, jasnell, bengo on the speaker queue # 20:40 rhiaro cwebber2: evan built something, is that a good direction? If not, is somebody willing to help something better? # 20:40 bengo Relevant libraries for human-reasable phrasing, HTML rendering. Both of those required a set of 'valid' AS2 Objects # 20:41 bengo SO I think 'isValid' is a useful building block # 20:41 Zakim sees azaroth, eprodrom, jasnell, bengo on the speaker queue # 20:41 jasnell a format validator is the best we can do without a defined API or documented display requirements # 20:41 Zakim sees azaroth, eprodrom, jasnell on the speaker queue # 20:41 rhiaro ... We can talk about pie in the sky , but the goal, for me, AS2 is an intermediate step. What I really want to build is stuff on top of AS2 # 20:41 Zakim sees azaroth, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 20:41 rhiaro ... I don't want to spend ages writing renderers, I want to build applications people can use # 20:41 Zakim sees azaroth, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 20:41 rhiaro tantek: not pie in the sky, we have feed readers # 20:42 rhiaro ... Even if all you did was copy an existing rss feed reader ui and use for AS2, that's one simple example, that would resemble the browser equivalent of AS2 # 20:42 jasnell there is no "test suite" for RSS or Atom beyond validating syntax and best practices for syntax # 20:42 Zakim azaroth, you wanted to suggest extracting all examples from specs to act as input for parser testing # 20:42 rhiaro cwebber2: is pump.io already fulfilling this if it uses as2? # 20:42 rhiaro azaroth: just to suggest that we have a really good doc.. if somethign is in there and there's no way it can be tested, be good to ahve that in there # 20:43 rhiaro Arnaud: could we develop one document where every feature of the spec is at least used once. Bare minimum for test suite. # 20:43 tantek cwebber2: right - if we can show that every feature is shown/used in something visual like that - that would be a great start # 20:43 cwebber2 so in a certain extent, building the api / federation tools helps us achieve that? # 20:43 rhiaro ... And validator should be able to validate against this # 20:43 Zakim sees sandro, cwebber on the speaker queue # 20:43 Zakim sees sandro, cwebber on the speaker queue # 20:44 Zakim sees cwebber, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 20:44 eprodrom q+ remind that current level of implementations is probably going to be libraries # 20:44 Zakim eprodrom, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...' # 20:44 azaroth json.parse(input) ; return true // insufficient # 20:44 rhiaro sandro: A feed that has everything in the AS2 vocabulary... a system has to handle eg. TentativeReject. The author of the system needs to tell us they're implementing TentativeReject # 20:44 rhiaro ... Displaying them to the user in a way that the user can distinguish them is good enough # 20:44 eprodrom q+ to remind that current level of implementations is probably going to be libraries # 20:44 Zakim sees cwebber, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 20:45 rhiaro sandro: conveying it ot the user in some way that the user understands... # 20:45 rhiaro jasnell: someone would need to write up what that means # 20:45 rhiaro cwebber2: sounds like ... I pointed to pump.io .. this is a rendering of as1 # 20:45 rhiaro ... so if we move onto api and federation things and build applications, that will come for free # 20:45 rhiaro ... because that's literally building those tools # 20:45 Zakim whispers to jasnell that the speaker queue has been closed # 20:46 rhiaro ... Can we at least say that we should be moving forward on those other things # 20:46 rhiaro ... And agree that building the things that implement api and federation is ueful # 20:46 tantek Arnaud point of order - we are not going to resolve on this and are already half-way time-consumed the next agenda item # 20:47 rhiaro jasnell: validator has test suites. nothing for atom that says it must be rendered this way, or even interpreted this way. Just valid or not # 20:47 azaroth tags cwebber's FATE aspect "make the group happy" # 20:47 rhiaro ... Absent api or application use cases, there's literlaly nothing else we can test # 20:47 tantek jasnell I disagree - this is why Feed Readers failed to handle e.g. my markup in my entry titles # 20:47 rhiaro ... We have to have a document that describes expected behaviour when you receive one of these activity statements. That's separate from saying is that statement valid or not. We need a document to describe those things to be able to test them. # 20:48 Zakim eprodrom, you wanted to remind that current level of implementations is probably going to be libraries # 20:48 rhiaro ... Clear we're not going to finish this today. Will continue on next call. # 20:48 azaroth cwebber2: Yep, was looking at your link :) # 20:48 rhiaro eprodrom: the implementations that are going to be done are going to be libraries # 20:48 rhiaro ... Useful to implementors to give a test suite for those libraries # 20:48 rhiaro ... A test suite for libraries maeks sense right now # 20:48 rhiaro ... Not sure if it will be our ultimate test suite # 20:48 rhiaro Arnaud: haven't haven't heard anyone disagree with that # 20:48 rhiaro ... Useful to have docs with valid input to provide to devs to test their implementations # 20:49 rhiaro ... And we have a validator that allows people to test what they're producing is reasonable # 20:51 rhiaro ben_thatmustbeme: aaron and I started playing with this idea of bringing microformats to a simpler serialization # 20:51 cwebber2 tantek: sandro: just rendering won't be enough though, because we have to show the side effects # 20:51 rhiaro ... There's a standard that microformats parses out to alraedy, we wanted to simplify it to something closer to AS2 # 20:51 rhiaro ... because it is difficult to work with that format # 20:51 cwebber2 sandro: tantek: which really means api implementation, with renderer # 20:51 rhiaro ... Direct, from microformats here's how we get to something somewhat close to as2 # 20:51 tantek cwebber2, agreed - which is why I asked sandro to capture his proposal - e.g in a github issue - so you can comment on it like that! # 20:51 rhiaro ... I think it's a big setp forward in unifying microformats community in getting to as2 # 20:52 rhiaro ... I think aaron and amy are already using it # 20:52 rhiaro ben_thatmustbeme: More useful than the current serializaiton of microformats # 20:52 rhiaro ... Not covering all of as2, because microformats works with posts not activities # 20:53 rhiaro ... When james looked at it he said it might be possible to do this as some alternative serialization... can't remember exact wording # 20:53 rhiaro ... If that's the case, we're two steps away from unifying everything # 20:53 rhiaro ... The other thing is I think it might actually be a better comparison to AS2 # 20:53 azaroth q+ to confirm that as only JSON is normative per -core, that this doesn't block progress? # 20:53 Zakim sees eprodrom, azaroth on the speaker queue # 20:53 rhiaro ... I would be in favour of replacing the microformats serializations with this, so we're comparing apples to apples - two json formats # 20:54 Zakim sees eprodrom, azaroth, jasnell on the speaker queue # 20:54 rhiaro ben_thatmustbeme: I don't know. I created the serializaiton. Aaron, you originally added it to an agenda that got dropped for 3 or 4 weeks? # 20:54 rhiaro ... What I want, ideally I'd like it to be a profile of AS2 # 20:54 Zakim sees azaroth, jasnell on the speaker queue # 20:54 Zakim sees azaroth, jasnell, rhiaro on the speaker queue # 20:55 rhiaro eprodrom: my question is - are we looking to replace as2 as social syntax? publish it parallel? examine it abstractly? have it be compatible? # 20:55 rhiaro ... sounds like of those four, have it be something compatible, or a part of as2 # 20:55 tantek q+ to note re: AS2 Core model of "Activity/Action" is useful for "Notifications" but not the simplest that could expressed for publishing / consuming streams of posts (RSS, Atom, h-entry). I think jf2 provides this in a complementary fashion and we should consider it as a social syntax effort. # 20:55 Zakim sees azaroth, jasnell, rhiaro, tantek on the speaker queue # 20:55 rhiaro ... Worst case, something to publish as a note, how to get from microformats to as2, and possibly back # 20:55 Zakim azaroth, you wanted to confirm that as only JSON is normative per -core, that this doesn't block progress? # 20:55 Zakim sees jasnell, rhiaro, tantek on the speaker queue # 20:56 rhiaro azaroth: JSON as the only normative serialization of AS2, this doesn't block anything. This is a separate process? # 20:56 tantek and this is another JSON Social Syntax, so it is covered by the charter # 20:56 rhiaro ... Potential straw person, we're blitzing through CR and got the AS2 doc to TR, and work was done in jf2, we would not want to go back and change anything about AS2 core or vocab? # 20:56 Zakim sees jasnell, rhiaro, tantek, kevinmarks on the speaker queue # 20:57 rhiaro ben_thatmustbeme: Just a subset? Part of it is. I think it's implementation experience that's useful input to possible changes to AS2 # 20:57 rhiaro ... If this motivates changes to AS2 we need to know that soon enough # 20:57 Zakim sees rhiaro, tantek, kevinmarks on the speaker queue # 20:57 rhiaro jasnell: positioning jf2 as an extension makes sense # 20:57 rhiaro ... In the original writeup there wer esome things that overlapped with as2 syntax # 20:57 tantek q+ to also note that jf2 has already helped as2 normatively and that's been very helpful. Should keep moving forward with it. # 20:57 Zakim sees rhiaro, tantek, kevinmarks on the speaker queue # 20:58 rhiaro ... that proposal for changing displayName to name. So we've already been making some of those changes based on that experience # 20:58 rhiaro ... Whatever parts in jf2 currently have that overlap we need to look at as change proposals in the syntax # 20:58 rhiaro ... Everything else makes perfect sense as an extension # 20:58 rhiaro ... could be done fairly transparently, but doesn't require any substantive changes to as2 in order to make that happen # 20:58 Zakim sees tantek, kevinmarks on the speaker queue # 20:59 cwebber2 rhiaro: I just wanted to add that I haven't followed the most recent updates to JF2 but I think JF2 maps more closely to AS2 content objects than anything else, potentially could converge on being the same # 20:59 cwebber2 rhiaro: if they eventually converge to AS2, we could dissolve JF2 and eveyone's happy, but at the very least converging on content objects might help # 20:59 Zakim tantek, you wanted to note re: AS2 Core model of "Activity/Action" is useful for "Notifications" but not the simplest that could expressed for publishing / consuming streams of # 21:00 Zakim ... posts (RSS, Atom, h-entry). I think jf2 provides this in a complementary fashion and we should consider it as a social syntax effort. and to also note that jf2 has already # 21:00 Zakim ... helped as2 normatively and that's been very helpful. Should keep moving forward with it. # 21:00 jasnell pulling Content objects out into a separate spec is an interesting idea # 21:00 rhiaro tantek: this has resulted in the really productive outcome, started with what's a different way of doing this. We got improvements in AS2 with specific issues, and I apprecate james for driving that # 21:00 eprodrom ben_thatmustbeme++ # 21:00 rhiaro ... The specific followup that I wanted to provide was, in re-reading AS2 with the contetx of 'I'm a naive json developer, dabbled with rss or atom' - the entire model of AS2 is it's very verb centric # 21:01 rhiaro ... We dropped verbs but they resurfaced as types # 21:01 rhiaro ... It's fine, and maps really well to the real world use case of notifications # 21:01 rhiaro ... where you literally get a stream of activities worded just like activities in AS2 # 21:01 rhiaro ... Want to call that out because real world implementations have found a distinct example that is different frome a news feed / homepage feed, which is just a stream of posts # 21:02 rhiaro ... Social networks have both - streams of actions and nouns # 21:02 rhiaro ... Jf2 is the evolution... RSS and Atom are post/noun centric # 21:02 rhiaro ... Jf2 is a modern updated json equivalent of atom # 21:02 Zakim sees kevinmarks, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 21:02 Zakim sees kevinmarks, eprodrom, jasnell on the speaker queue # 21:02 rhiaro ... In addition to converging with the content object model in AS2, it may have application on its own # 21:02 Zakim sees kevinmarks, eprodrom, jasnell, cwebber on the speaker queue # 21:03 rhiaro ... It's a very short path to go from publishing an Atom feed to parsing jf2 # 21:03 rhiaro ... An excellent way to get people on the road to implementing activitystreams # 21:03 rhiaro ... Would like to see this effort contineu potentially as a seperable module # 21:03 Zakim sees kevinmarks, eprodrom, cwebber on the speaker queue # 21:03 rhiaro ... This is good news, everybody seems to agree this is helping with convergence # 21:03 Zakim sees kevinmarks, cwebber on the speaker queue # 21:03 tantek a specific proposal could be to consider this as an editor's draft # 21:03 rhiaro ... Don't know that there is much to discuss beyond that # 21:04 Zakim sees cwebber, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 21:04 ben_thatmustbeme Arnaud, this was originally a telcon issue to introduce people to it and just got delayed so much # 21:04 rhiaro kevinmarks: I think the origianl motivation for activities was the assumption that they were a database query. In opensocial, where this spawned from, I have an application embedded in a social network and I need to know what the user has done recently # 21:04 rhiaro ... Database query saying give me everytin grelevant in this context # 21:04 rhiaro ... Original implementation did shoot them into atom # 21:05 rhiaro ... It was more of a logfile format for a computer than a plublication for a human # 21:05 rhiaro ... That distinction got lost, and the aim is clariifying that again # 21:05 Zakim sees cwebber, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 21:05 rhiaro ... The distinction between the post - human readable - and the logfile version which is as2 # 21:05 rhiaro ... And I think jf2 is a good representation of those core content pieces # 21:06 rhiaro cwebber2: I just wanted to point out that in as2 in a certain sense, the whole make-things-more-content-centric, has been done, because verbs are nouns in AS2. Activities are subclasses of Objects # 21:06 sandro +1 kevinmarks as2+jf2 has a chance of being a sensible, clear model of all this stuff # 21:06 rhiaro In pump.io there are two streams that you are talking about - main stream of posts, and secondary stream of notification # 21:06 rhiaro ... in as2 already, verbs are nouns. We're already on that track. # 21:07 rhiaro eprodrom: I really liked tantek's analysis of the two different kinds of streams. You can't actually have a Collection of Objects currently. # 21:07 tantek q+ to note a specific proposal could be to consider this as an editor's draft to formally accept it as a working group item (since we agree that work on it is a good thing). # 21:07 rhiaro Arnaud: find out where there is misalignment between two approaches. I don't see any reason to change the way we are dealing with this. Note definitely a possiblity down the line. We don't need to agree on this. THe conversions can keep on going. # 21:08 rhiaro ... So what's left is empty bag and then we have absolute convergence and everybody's happy. If not, at some point we decide we have this chunk of material which has nowhere to be put in this spec, and we can look into having an ED and publishing as a Note or Rec # 21:08 Zakim tantek, you wanted to note a specific proposal could be to consider this as an editor's draft to formally accept it as a working group item (since we agree that work on it is a # 21:08 rhiaro ... Since we agree that this work is useful and has been productve, we should accept it as an editor's draft # 21:09 rhiaro ... That does not commit us to anything further than that # 21:09 rhiaro ... Does not commit us to publishing as a WD or a Note or anything # 21:09 rhiaro ... Just that we think this work is worth continuing in WG # 21:09 rhiaro ... propose we adopt jf2 as ED with no further implications for it's track # 21:09 rhiaro ... I disagree with your assessment of implication of turning a document into ED # 21:10 rhiaro ... i think it's premature. For now, it seems to be working material that's useful for some people to help them instrument their comments and feedback to AS2 # 21:10 tantek ben_thatmustbeme, what do you mean by "a document within the group"? # 21:10 rhiaro ... Once aaron tells me we have finished this process of evaluating we can revist... but for now I don't see the point # 21:10 kevinmarks isn't it still being edited the definition of an editors draft? # 21:11 rhiaro ... Trying to label the consensus that we've arrived at # 21:11 eprodrom ben_thatmustbeme: it was a doozie too # 21:11 aaronpk if "editor's draft" has implications other than "we're working on it" then isn't that an issue with the term "editor's draft"? # 21:11 tantek PROPOSED: Accept jf2 as an editor's draft with no commitment to rec track or even note track, but rather as a means to improving AS2. # 21:12 kevinmarks ben, evan said he'd vote for whatever gets us to lunch fastest # 21:12 cwebber2 I definitely, on the record, think that the JF2 work is awesome # 21:13 eprodrom agrees with cwebber2 # 21:13 cwebber2 though if JF2 becomes an editor's draft and acitvitypump doesn # 21:13 Arnaud RESOLVED: Accept jf2 as an editor's draft with no commitment to rec track or even note track, but rather as a means to improving AS2 # 21:13 tantek cwebber2: I prefer activitypump to become an ED # 21:14 tantek ben_thatmustbeme++ thanks for leading the jf2 discussion jasnell and melvster joined the channel
# 21:52 melvster I know it was said in jest but comments like 'evan said he'd vote for whatever gets us to lunch fastest' are not the best advert for people following this conversation from outside the F2F edhelas and kevinmarks joined the channel
# 21:57 tantek ben_thatmustbeme: are you coming back for remote participation? # 21:57 tantek we may re-use the projection screen for demos etc. # 21:59 aaronpk we can keep people on talky and just not project them too. they'll just be a tiny face over at this end of the table. # 22:01 wilkie eprodrom: we have 3 agenda items: micropub, activity pump, amy's doc # 22:01 wilkie eprodrom: baring objections, I'd like to put amy's doc first to drive discussion of others # 22:01 trackbot knows about these 45 users: Safina, Reuben, John, Sarven, Melvin, Tantek, Bret, wilkie, Pavlik, Matt, Laurent Walter, Amy, Harry, Sandro, DUK KI, Shane, Renato, Jonathan, Paul Changjin, Geun Hyung, Jaakko, Andreas, Arnaud, Hyejin, Bill, Fabio Luciano, Alexandre, Aaron, René, Evan, Benjamin, Jason, Dan, Robert, Doug, Wendy, Hyunjin, dave, James, Eric, Jessica, Claudio, Christopher, XIAOHAI, Benjamin # 22:02 wilkie azaroth: kevin put on agenda for tomorrow for annotations. I'm not going to be here tomorrow, so if we could do that today that would be appreciated # 22:02 Zakim I don't understand your question, tantek. # 22:02 Zakim Present: Arnaud, csarven, rhiaro, aaronpk, shanehudson, sandro, elf-pavlik, kevinmarks, wilkie, eprodrom, jasnell, ben_thatmustbeme, cwebber, tantek, hhalpin, james, tsyesika, # 22:02 Zakim ... wseltzer, akuckartz, shepazu, Rob_Sanderson, Shane_, rene, cwebber2, Benjamin_Young, bengo # 22:02 Zakim On IRC I see kevinmarks, jasnell, bblfish, snarfed, kevinmarks3, azaroth, bengo, eprodrom, RRSAgent, Arnaud, tantek, ben_thatmustbeme, bret, bigbluehat, tommorris_, cwebber_remote, # 22:02 Zakim ... ElijahLynn, dwhly, tessierashpool_, bitbear, cwebber2, shepazu, tsyesika, rhiaro, oshepherd, wilkie, raucao, jet, aaronpk, Loqi, rrika, Zakim, sandro, trackbot, wseltzer # 22:02 wilkie eprodrom: first I will make the change to put Amy earlier # 22:02 wilkie eprodrom: tantek: if you could move annotations to after api # 22:03 wilkie eprodrom: is anyone not coming to dinner. and if not can we get a head count to make reservations # 22:03 wilkie tantek: I'm happy to take people on a tour if they would like # 22:04 wilkie eprodrom: ok, if you can update the agenda about dinner that'd be great. thank you to tantek for hosting # 22:04 wilkie tantek: next thing I saw activity pump had aaron? I'm going to change that to chris. # 22:04 wilkie tantek: I have amy, liason with annotations, micropub and activitypump dwhly joined the channel
# 22:05 Zakim I don't understand 'draft minutes', Arnaud # 22:05 wilkie eprodrom: only other question is about rene's question, but it is late there and we could move this to tomorrow # 22:05 wilkie eprodrom: I want to make sure things are handled and it gets on the agenda at some point # 22:05 wilkie eprodrom: it might be courteous to our european participants to move it to tomorrow morning # 22:06 azaroth present+ Rob_Sanderson # 22:06 wilkie eprodrom: can we add a morning agenda item for rene's question on extensions (for as2) # 22:06 wilkie eprodrom: is that fair? to handle it tomorrow morning # 22:06 aaronpk hopefully the audio is better on the talky this time # 22:06 wilkie tantek: I'll put that before federation protocol. earlier is better for europe # 22:07 wilkie eprodrom: we have about 4 hours in order to get through social api and annotation. # 22:07 wilkie eprodrom: we could do an hour a piece. is there anything that may take longer? # 22:08 azaroth +1 to further AS2 issues if time allows # 22:08 wilkie eprodrom: if we reach the end of our agenda, should we try to address as2 issues or any better ways to spend our time? # 22:08 azaroth (if we get there) # 22:09 wilkie rhiaro: I'm not going through the whole document because it is required reading and I've already gone over it prior and not much has changed # 22:09 tsyesika sandro: don't type the full url out, don't want it indexed by search # 22:10 wilkie rhiaro: rather than a spec, this is a document that tries to point at the different ways of doing things # 22:10 wilkie rhiaro: I've broken it down based on the social requirements we did a while ago # 22:10 wilkie rhiaro: I shuffled it around in the last couple of weeks # 22:11 wilkie rhiaro: the top you'll see three links to other specs. it will have a small summary of each. # 22:11 wilkie rhiaro: what would be useful is filing issues or what we find important for each concept # 22:12 kevinmarks hypothesis was clearly designed by someone with very good eyesight # 22:12 wilkie rhiaro: I like multiple specifications that connect together instead of a huge spec, I know some would disagree # 22:13 wilkie rhiaro: what I am saying this is useful for filing issues against it to use to discuss the various areas to refine those sections # 22:13 tantek q+ to ask what do you need to publish this as a FPWD? # 22:13 Zakim sees cwebber, tantek on the speaker queue # 22:13 Zakim sees cwebber, tantek, bengo on the speaker queue # 22:13 wilkie rhiaro: if anybody has feedback or questions or confusions... # 22:13 Zakim sees cwebber, tantek, bengo on the speaker queue # 22:13 Zakim sees cwebber, tantek, bengo on the speaker queue # 22:13 wilkie cwebber2: the document is awesome and I've already given you feedback # 22:13 wilkie cwebber2: amy also already did something converting activitypump stuff into this # 22:14 shepazu has the urge to move the camera around to see who's talking # 22:14 wilkie cwebber2: it is most interesting to me to hold off on separating the specs for now. I have a hard time reading through all of them. # 22:15 wilkie cwebber2: [amy] already wants to have each section be independentally implementable # 22:15 azaroth +1 to cwebber2 re not splitting up prematurely # 22:15 wilkie rhiaro: yeah, this includes federation and social api and it is a badly named document # 22:15 shepazu thanks, tantek… you need to trim your nose hairs :P # 22:15 Zakim tantek, you wanted to ask what do you need to publish this as a FPWD? # 22:16 wilkie bengo: I read the charter as it is a javascripty thing # 22:16 wilkie eprodrom: no, we've settled to be a REST-ful api # 22:16 shepazu appreciates it, but any view removes some people… # 22:16 wilkie cwebber2: (to amy) it is just activitypump that has the conversion? # 22:16 wilkie rhiaro: no. I have all of them. they are linked yet. # 22:17 wilkie tantek: I like the document and Amy's approach to converge the various concepts. # 22:17 wilkie tantek: we had a ton of API candidates at our meetings in the past and had a huge discussion to widdle them down # 22:18 wilkie tantek: I want a draft sooner rather than later to show value and progress toward many aspects of our charter # 22:18 wilkie tantek: amy, what do you need from us to make this a first working draft # 22:18 wilkie rhiaro: what I need is to understand what this document is for # 22:19 Zakim sees bengo, cwebber, sandro on the speaker queue # 22:19 tantek if we're renaming, possibly "Social API Comparisons" ? # 22:19 wilkie rhiaro: when I started, I thought each section would have a spec you would just implement, but now we have various specs to pick between # 22:19 sandro q+ to ask if we're going to mix-and-match or pick-one-and-refine # 22:19 Zakim sees bengo, cwebber, sandro on the speaker queue # 22:19 wilkie tantek: the point is there is something here worth broader discussion and to at least show that the WG has converged onto 3 different approaches (even if it is not just one) # 22:20 Zakim sees bengo, cwebber, sandro on the speaker queue # 22:20 wilkie tantek: it will say "hey, we made progress" and that's worth publishing and why I'm driving this discussion # 22:20 Zakim sees cwebber, sandro on the speaker queue # 22:20 wseltzer rrsagent, pointer? # 22:20 wilkie bengo: I think it is useful right now as a survey of relevant protocols # 22:20 wilkie bengo: and looking at the use cases, this document can show how those use cases can be done and which use cases cannot be done # 22:21 Zakim sees cwebber, sandro on the speaker queue # 22:21 wseltzer kevinmarks, I'm heading for a plane now, to join the group in-person tomorrow # 22:22 wilkie cwebber2: I think what is most useful, considering the feedback I and others have given, is that you can break down all these different schmes and how they overlap # 22:22 wilkie cwebber2: so, hopefully people can help you determine the pattern and how to merge them all, if possible, to one coherent document # 22:23 Zakim sandro, you wanted to ask if we're going to mix-and-match or pick-one-and-refine # 22:23 wilkie cwebber2: so, it maps the space and highlights convergence. so hopefully the various spec groups help you with that feedback toward that goal. # 22:23 wilkie sandro: are we going to mix and match or pick one and refine? # 22:24 wilkie sandro: looking at the doc, there is a different tone in the description section where there are various different ways to do pub/sub yet very similar ways to do 'delete' # 22:24 wilkie sandro: so maybe we have some simple explanation about delete but you can't do that for subscriptions # 22:25 wilkie rhiaro: it is useful to note the indieweb set of specs which are already broken down. and they use pubsubhubbub, but we can't link to it?? # 22:25 wilkie eprodrom: there were patent issues with google about PuSH. another issue is that it doesn't private distribution. # 22:25 wilkie aaronpk: but nothing does. so we could extend it to do that. # 22:26 wilkie eprodrom: right. many ways to do it. we could say 'this is aaronpk's feed to tantek and only those two can use it' etc # 22:26 wilkie eprodrom: and the PuSH implementation can decide and be implemented to do that # 22:26 wilkie rhiaro: would it be useful to pull out how activitypump does it and not have it dependent on anything else in activitypump etc # 22:26 aaronpk I'm all +1 for splitting up activitypump into smaller specs # 22:27 wilkie sandro: when I read the activitypump spec yesterday I thought 'this is such a nice coherent whole' and the indieweb spec is also nice and coherent. # 22:27 Zakim sees tantek, aaronpk on the speaker queue # 22:27 Zakim sees tantek, aaronpk on the speaker queue # 22:27 Zakim sees tantek, aaronpk, cwebber on the speaker queue # 22:27 wilkie sandro: mixing them together... I dunno... it seems easier to just flip a coin and then take the things the other doesn't and just ask 'how do we improve it' # 22:27 Zakim tantek, you wanted to discuss PuSH "status" # 22:27 Zakim sees aaronpk, cwebber on the speaker queue # 22:27 azaroth q+ to suggest a feature matrix as input to way forwards? # 22:27 Zakim sees aaronpk, cwebber, azaroth on the speaker queue # 22:28 wilkie tantek: wrt PuSH: harry asked if we could link it and he got blocked trying to get the editor at Google's lawyers to allow it # 22:29 wilkie tantek: I and a few others were contacted quite angrily by Julian, the PuSH group at w3c, which we apparently have # 22:29 wilkie tantek: so, we should contact Julian as a chair and ask about the status of PuSH and cc wendy and see if we can get to a point where we can at least reference it # 22:30 wilkie tantek: or maybe bring it into the WG if it comes to that # 22:30 wilkie eprodrom: sounds great. I'm making that action. # 22:30 Zakim sees aaronpk, cwebber, azaroth on the speaker queue # 22:30 wilkie eprodrom: it is a good option for us to follow. there are some good things about PuSH that makes sense to pursue. # 22:30 tantek wilkie ACTION eprodrom contact Julian as a chair and ask about the status of PuSH and cc wendy and see if we can get to a point where we can at least reference it or possibly incorporate into this WG. # 22:30 wilkie eprodrom: it may also be reasonable of us to consider other options, like implementing just the web hook part of PuSH. # 22:31 wilkie ACTION eprodrom contact Julian as a chair and ask about the status of PuSH and cc wendy and see if we can get to a point where we can at least reference it or possibly incorporate into this WG. # 22:31 trackbot Created ACTION-80 - Contact julian as a chair and ask about the status of push and cc wendy and see if we can get to a point where we can at least reference it or possibly incorporate into this wg. [on Evan Prodromou - due 2015-12-08]. # 22:31 Zakim sees aaronpk, cwebber, azaroth on the speaker queue # 22:31 kevinmarks well, not just for big publishers, fro small publishers that might get takeoff # 22:31 Zakim sees cwebber, azaroth on the speaker queue # 22:31 wilkie eprodrom: I want to make sure if we are fighting for PuSH that it is really the best tool for the job # 22:32 wilkie aaronpk: I want to follow up sandro's comment about flipping a coin. # 22:32 eprodrom wilkie: thanks # 22:32 Zakim sees cwebber, azaroth, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 22:32 wilkie aaronpk: I agree activitypump is a coherent spec that does everything it needs to do and you look at indieweb and they are a bunch of smaller specs that are equivalent # 22:33 wilkie aaronpk: instead of choosing one and changing it as needed, we can look at the functionality of each spec: how does activitypump describe X, how does indieweb describe X # 22:33 Zakim sees cwebber, azaroth, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 22:33 wilkie aaronpk: and like PuSH, maybe it isn't the best option, but maybe we can see it as a good web-hook pattern and just use that # 22:34 cwebber2 kevinmarks: mentioning is one type of thing you can deliver # 22:34 rhiaro q+ to reply to aaron about functionality of specs # 22:34 Zakim sees cwebber, azaroth, eprodrom, rhiaro on the speaker queue # 22:34 wilkie aaronpk: my point is that we shouldn't start with either spec and work from there; look at functionality. # 22:34 Zakim sees cwebber, azaroth, eprodrom, rhiaro on the speaker queue # 22:34 kevinmarks is the inbox endpoint in activitypump the same for mentions and posts your subscribed to? # 22:34 wilkie rhiaro: that document already has a summary comparison as I understand each spec # 22:34 wilkie rhiaro: the next step would be to weigh up pros and cons, is that what you mean? # 22:35 wilkie rhiaro: yeah, that's what I need help and feedback for. # 22:35 Zakim sees cwebber, azaroth, eprodrom, rhiaro on the speaker queue # 22:35 wilkie tantek: I object. this document is about convergence and lists of pros-and-cons may bring up more disagreement # 22:35 Zakim sees cwebber, azaroth, eprodrom, rhiaro on the speaker queue # 22:35 wilkie tantek: I think descriptions are better that pros-and-cons # 22:36 wilkie cwebber2: pros and cons could bring contention as opposed to unity # 22:36 Zakim sees cwebber, azaroth, eprodrom, rhiaro on the speaker queue # 22:36 sandro q+ to propose rephrasing as a proposal with knobs # 22:36 Zakim sees cwebber, azaroth, eprodrom, rhiaro, sandro on the speaker queue # 22:36 wilkie rhiaro: in terms of moving each section forward, I don't know how to progress # 22:36 Zakim sees cwebber, azaroth, eprodrom, rhiaro, sandro, bengo on the speaker queue # 22:36 azaroth q+ azaroth2 to suggest gh issues, re moving sections forward :) # 22:36 Zakim sees cwebber, azaroth, eprodrom, rhiaro, sandro, bengo, azaroth2 on the speaker queue # 22:36 wilkie rhiaro: I have written out in each section a description and you can go to an expanded form of that # 22:37 eprodrom azaroth2 clever queue-hacking there # 22:37 wilkie sandro: so maybe start with delete and do as I suggested. just describe delete and where they diverge, just list that as an issue and list the divergance # 22:37 tantek disagree with sandro re: separating out separate specs at this point, I think the cohesive Social API Overview is useful as is # 22:37 Zakim sees azaroth, eprodrom, rhiaro, sandro, bengo, azaroth2 on the speaker queue # 22:37 wilkie sandro: and then looking at PuSH, yes, maybe we can all agree that the commonality is 'web-hook' and figure it out from there # 22:38 wilkie cwebber2: in response to sandro's comment about frankenstein: we don't want a frankenstein but rather a frankenstein's lab # 22:38 wilkie cwebber2: what I would want to do is to actually make Amy's restructured version of things to eventually be the official doc # 22:38 azaroth working_together++ # 22:39 wilkie cwebber2: if we can get to that point in all of these documents, we are that close to convergence # 22:39 wilkie cwebber2: and if we can't get there, we learned a lot # 22:39 wilkie cwebber2: and we will know regardless in the future where to go # 22:39 Zakim sees azaroth, eprodrom, rhiaro, sandro, bengo, azaroth2 on the speaker queue # 22:39 wilkie rhiaro: if you had 3 different specs, they wouldn't always overlap, but you could use parts of them and combined get all behavior # 22:40 wilkie cwebber2: [to aaronpk] is this something you would be interested in? # 22:40 wilkie aaronpk: you mean the structure amy proposed? # 22:41 wilkie cwebber2: yes. and there may be disagreements but we can have the goal of unifying them. # 22:41 Zakim sees azaroth, eprodrom, rhiaro, sandro, bengo, azaroth2 on the speaker queue # 22:41 wilkie rhiaro: if you look at the indieweb restructuring you'll see it is short because I've just linked to existing specs # 22:41 Zakim azaroth, you wanted to suggest a feature matrix as input to way forwards? # 22:41 Zakim sees eprodrom, rhiaro, sandro, bengo, azaroth2 on the speaker queue # 22:41 Zakim sees eprodrom, rhiaro, sandro, bengo, azaroth2 on the speaker queue # 22:41 wilkie azaroth: a feature matrix as a summary would be valuable # 22:42 Zakim sees eprodrom, rhiaro, sandro, bengo, azaroth2 on the speaker queue # 22:42 wilkie rhiaro: most of the specs do most of the things so it would be a fairly full grid. you may file an issue # 22:42 Zakim azaroth2, you wanted to suggest gh issues, re moving sections forward :) # 22:42 Zakim sees eprodrom, rhiaro, sandro, bengo on the speaker queue # 22:43 Zakim sees eprodrom, sandro, bengo on the speaker queue # 22:44 wilkie eprodrom: would it be good to list out differences among candidates we have to determine which are fundamental and which are unimportant # 22:44 tantek eprodrom, maybe as issues rather than in the spec? # 22:44 wilkie sandro: we did that in a way. as we said we would suggest weaknesses in our proposals and strengths in others # 22:44 tantek eprodrom, I think perhaps azaroth's proposal of a feature matrix overview would help with that? # 22:44 bengo What is the canonical 'restructured' doc? # 22:44 wilkie eprodrom: I thought we could more easily reach consensus if we determined this # 22:45 wilkie eprodrom: I agree that a feature matrix would be good there # 22:45 Zakim sandro, you wanted to propose rephrasing as a proposal with knobs # 22:45 wilkie sandro: there is an alternative to what azaroth proposed # 22:45 wilkie sandro: if we could, and not much work, to have a spec with knobs than a bunch of interlinking specifications # 22:46 tantek q+ to propose name change from "The Social API" to "Social APIs Comparison and Overviews" and publishing as a FPWD # 22:47 wilkie cwebber2: we could have just one specification. it is one thing to say "Amy, great specification" and another to say this is something I will definitely do. # 22:48 wilkie sandro: so you could see a knob for activitypump, indieweb etc and have it show you directly how they work # 22:48 wilkie sandro: to pick one, row files. what would be nice is basically a feature matrix: here are the fields that matter to each # 22:48 wilkie rhiaro: that makes for some things but not all things # 22:49 Zakim tantek, you wanted to propose name change from "The Social API" to "Social APIs Comparison and Overviews" and publishing as a FPWD # 22:49 bengo q+ to talk about how feature matrixes are not normative and usually APIs are # 22:49 wilkie tantek: I deliberately labeled my queue item to be angsty # 22:50 wilkie tantek: I'm hearing some proposals for good additions to the document such as azaroth's feature matrix # 22:50 wilkie eprodrom: yeah, differences between the proposals # 22:50 jasnell this isn't yet pushed as the current editor's draft # 22:50 wilkie tantek: ok. I say give in a week for amy to consider these additions # 22:51 wilkie tantek: ok. the question is whether or not there are any FPWD blockers? # 22:51 wilkie rhiaro: also, I read the definition of FPWD is that it doesn't need consensus # 22:51 Zakim sees bengo, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 22:52 Zakim sees bengo, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 22:52 wilkie eprodrom: since this is a process document about determining among a few API recommendations, is it an internal document? or what do we expect to publish it? # 22:52 wilkie tantek: broader feedback and a show of progress # 22:52 wilkie tantek: today we have shown 0 public progress on social API and I want to change that with this document # 22:52 Zakim sees bengo, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 22:53 wilkie bengo: the way the charter is worded, this document doesn't fulfill it but it pushes us there # 22:53 wilkie bengo: this sounds like a usecase document, which is also in the specification # 22:53 wilkie sandro: now it says social api and federation protocol # 22:54 wilkie bengo: yeah, it seems it says what you can do for various use cases # 22:54 Zakim sees bengo, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 22:54 azaroth (time check of 5 minutes to the hour) # 22:54 Zakim bengo, you wanted to talk about how feature matrixes are not normative and usually APIs are # 22:54 wilkie sandro: yeah, and what I would want is to make issues out of any divergence and fix them. tantek would still publish as is? # 22:54 eprodrom azaroth: I'm watching it, going to try to spread our agenda-building time out over the three # 22:55 eprodrom azaroth: (but thanks) Shane_ joined the channel
# 22:55 eprodrom azaroth: so I'm going to get us to sometime around 15:03 or 15:05 # 22:55 wilkie tantek: I don't think these are FPWD blockers # 22:56 tantek cwebber2 suggested blockquoting the "status" and giving it a yellow background ;) # 22:56 rhiaro with big red arrows pointing to it from every direction? # 22:57 wilkie eprodrom: I want to check to see if we have made progress on the convergence of the social api. is it a single spec? is it two or more specs? # 22:57 wilkie eprodrom: is one or more of them a candidate recommendation? or too early to decide? # 22:57 wilkie tantek: I think it is too early to decide that # 22:57 wilkie sandro: I guess the question is when do we decide? do we want to have a recommendation by the end of the WG (around a year from now)? # 22:58 wilkie sandro: maybe we don't have a recommendation and we do enough work to get the group extended # 22:58 wilkie tantek: by trying to force a methodology is flawed and not something that is going to work # 22:59 wilkie tantek: I think a different approach is to allow multiple documents publicly iterate and try to converge than prepick # 22:59 wilkie rhiaro: that is what has happened since Paris # 22:59 wilkie tantek: yes. and this implicit method is working. # 22:59 wilkie tantek: the waterfall pick-first approach has failed. let's admit that and move on. # 22:59 bengo revisit (very real) charter timeline constraints in January? # 22:59 wilkie eprodrom: I'm good with that. I just want us to be able to visualize an end-point that's good for us. # 23:00 Zakim sees cwebber, rhiaro on the speaker queue # 23:00 wilkie eprodrom: if we think we will not be able to publish anything right now, I would like to have my free-time back and not spend a lot of time on it # 23:00 wilkie sandro: that's if we don't get to Rec or even notes? # 23:00 wilkie eprodrom: even notes. I'd be happy with publishing a few notes and some explanation why we didn't get to Rec. I would love a Rec. # 23:01 Zakim sees cwebber, rhiaro on the speaker queue # 23:01 wilkie eprodrom: if we learn a lot and we all become better people, that's great too, but maybe not worth the time and effort. # 23:01 tantek q+ to state I'm much more of an optimist than eprodrom ;) and believe we will not only publish a draft, but multiple working drafts, iterating on them, converging more and more. # 23:01 Zakim sees cwebber, rhiaro, tantek on the speaker queue # 23:01 wilkie sandro: the lowest bar there is we end up publishing an activitypump Note and a set of indieweb specs also as Notes and we can totally do that within a year # 23:02 wilkie sandro: given that is our lowest thing and that's so clear, we aren't wasting our time? # 23:02 bengo social data syntax convergence was prereq to other parts and there are still outstanding issues # 23:02 tantek bengo - and I think that "convergence prereq" was in many ways counterproductive # 23:02 wilkie sandro: if we fail on all other counts, we will have those notes at least # 23:02 wilkie eprodrom: if we are converging well and amy is happy being the point person, that's good # 23:03 wilkie tantek: writing a useful summary and providing a place for feedback # 23:03 Zakim sees cwebber, rhiaro, tantek on the speaker queue # 23:03 Zakim sees cwebber, rhiaro, tantek on the speaker queue # 23:03 wilkie cwebber2: my feeling on this WG has been rollercoaster-y and I'm at the top # 23:04 wilkie cwebber2: a couple of months ago I was all 'this group sucks etc etc' snarfed joined the channel
# 23:04 wilkie cwebber2: the pressure to get ready for this meeting has been really useful # 23:05 wilkie cwebber2: I think I want to see what happened between last [f2f] meeting and this meeting again # 23:05 wilkie cwebber2: all of this push to make progress on specs but also implementation push # 23:05 wilkie cwebber2: in two months I'll probably feel awful again, but hopefully I'll feel great # 23:05 wilkie tantek: that'll be the goal for the chairs then, to make cwebber2 happy # 23:06 Zakim rhiaro, you wanted to discuss potential definitions of success # 23:06 wilkie eprodrom: we are a little over the time, so last comments # 23:06 eprodrom Zakim, close the queue # 23:06 Zakim ok, eprodrom, the speaker queue is closed # 23:06 azaroth tags cwebber's making people (including cwebber) happy tag again :D Too easy to hand out fate points... # 23:06 wilkie rhiaro: wrt eprodrom about definitions of success and I had three options # 23:06 wilkie rhiaro: 1. we produce one spec that does all the things. # 23:06 aaronpk bengo - oh wow, I forgot about that page! it hasn't been updated in quite a while. tho I also would like to see a feature matrix more at the level amy's spec breaks things out # 23:07 wilkie rhiaro: 2. we produce 5 specs that overall do all the things but do not all need to be implemented on a whole # 23:07 Zakim tantek, you wanted to state I'm much more of an optimist than eprodrom ;) and believe we will not only publish a draft, but multiple working drafts, iterating on them, converging # 23:07 eprodrom I'm really liking the idea of using aspects and FATE points for running a meeting # 23:07 wilkie tantek: like sandro said, the lowest possible situation is not at all terrible # 23:08 wilkie tantek: I think we should publish all the specs so we can all improve and find convergence # 23:08 wilkie tantek: and maybe all of the specs will be great and work, so who knows # 23:08 bengo aaronpk I agree and think that's the next step. e.g. "This is how webmention fits into Responses use case 1" # 23:08 wilkie tantek: I would like rhiaro's document to get to FPWD by next tele-con # 23:08 rhiaro is the proposal 'amy does a bunch of work in the next week' ;) # 23:09 azaroth And tag with FPWD in the issue title? # 23:09 wilkie tantek: so, I propose if you have a block/issue on rhiaro's document to raise it as a github issue # 23:09 bengo Will the document stay as 'socialapi' repo or also have name changed? # 23:09 wilkie tantek: and if none, we can potentially publish as a FPWD next week # 23:09 wilkie azaroth: how do we say 'this is a blocker for FPWD?' as opposed to another type of issue # 23:09 wilkie tantek: just say 'FPWD-whatever' in the title # 23:10 bengo FPWD of "Social Protocols Comparison" # 23:10 wilkie eprodrom: sounds good. wanna make it a proposal? # 23:10 kevinmarks tantek: if you're going to -1 next tuesday you'd better have filed an issue # 23:10 shepazu sandro, when is the annotations liaison? will you be taking a break first? # 23:11 eprodrom PROPOSED: make any FPWD- issues on Social Protocols Comparison visible by next telecon 12/8 # 23:11 eprodrom shepazu: later afternoon, 17-18 local # 23:12 eprodrom RESOLVED: make any FPWD- issues on Social Protocols Comparison visible by next telecon 12/8 # 23:12 sandro suggested shortname w3.org/TR/social-web-protocols # 23:12 wilkie eprodrom: so we have slipped a bit so let's keep moving # 23:12 aaronpk notes amy already added that to the admin chunk of the agenda ;-) # 23:12 wilkie eprodrom: so maybe we take our 10 min break at 4pm? # 23:12 wilkie eprodrom: next on the agenda is to discuss ED of micropub # 23:12 tsyesika heads off to bed now (after midnight here in stockholm) # 23:12 rhiaro If someoen wants to bikeshed about naming (in the nicest way possible) can yo uopen an issue and keep to one thread? # 23:13 wilkie eprodrom: so, let's discuss Liason with Annotations WG. I think we have doug in IRC # 23:14 eprodrom Zakim, open the queue # 23:14 eprodrom I am pleased that that worked # 23:14 wilkie kevinmarks: I asked if I could be IE on annotations and shepazu said no # 23:14 wilkie kevinmarks: so I've been a bad liasion since I'm not a member of the group # 23:15 wilkie shepazu: we didn't have any IE at first and wanted to ensure we were implementer-heavy and wanted to get the group going before letting in IE # 23:15 tantek didn't we have a resolution for kevinmarks to be the liason? # 23:15 wilkie shepazu: IE are only specifically people doing duties in the WG, all are welcome to the mailing list # 23:16 wilkie shepazu: that's what we wanted our policy to be, and it is normal within the w3c # 23:16 wilkie tantek: can you note then that kevinmarks is liaison and get this clarified # 23:17 wilkie tantek: it was a joint-resolution at TPAC to have kevinmarks be liaison # 23:17 wilkie shepazu: I don't recall that resolution that there would be a specific liaison. I thought it was just to be resolved by the chairs. # 23:17 wilkie shepazu: ah. it was not clear that he would be liaison. # 23:18 tantek minutes from the joint Social Web / Annotation WG meeting TPAC 2014? # 23:18 wilkie azaroth: I recall the IE request and recall discussion around it and I remember the resolution was to not have IEs and not a strong reason # 23:18 wilkie azaroth: and since there was no strong reason, it was rejected and this was just some clerical error and hopefully the two groups didn't suffer from this # 23:19 wilkie azaroth: hopefully this has been mitigated somewhat now that we have IEs more officially supported in Annotations # 23:19 wilkie azaroth: I think we would look more favorably now than months ago # 23:19 wilkie tantek: ok. let's assume a mistake and move on. # 23:19 wilkie tantek: do we still need a specific liaison? kevinmarks, you were nominated, are you ok with it now? # 23:20 wilkie kevinmarks: I will look at annotations and coordinate now with some of the other specs I'm working with # 23:20 wilkie azaroth: yeah. having a path forward to look at how annotations would look with webmentions etc would be good. # 23:20 wilkie rhiaro: I'm also in the webmentions WG but not sure how much I can contribute # 23:21 aaronpk can't imagine shepazu can hear anything going on at the other end of the table # 23:21 wilkie eprodrom: our queue is empty. do we have any more to discuss? # 23:22 wilkie shepazu: sorry, was this just discussion about a person who would be liaison or about the technology? # 23:22 bengo If anyone can deliver an update on joint work... # 23:22 tantek great - totally fine with informal liason especially with azaroth now participating directly in social web wg # 23:22 wilkie kevinmarks: yeah, it was just to clarify because this wasn't together. if you want to discuss tech, do it. # 23:23 wilkie jasnell: yeah, I would like to see if Annotations, as an implementor of as2, has any concerns # 23:23 wilkie azaroth: as far as I know, we are quite happy with what AS2 is looking like # 23:24 wilkie azaroth: there are some overlapping and similarity but we think it can be managed # 23:24 wilkie shepazu: I think it would be useful for azaroth to discuss what happened at TPAC # 23:24 wilkie shepazu: I think it would be useful to discuss the resolutions at TPAC # 23:25 wilkie azaroth: there was a resolution that the work for AS2 would progress toward CR and the timeframe with the two groups is reasonable that we can use AS2 collections instead of a clone of them # 23:25 wilkie azaroth: if there was a desire to have a separate collections spec, we can do that too # 23:25 wilkie tantek: is there a issue to pull collections out of core to a new spec? # 23:26 wilkie jasnell: elf has requested this, but no real issue # 23:26 wilkie tantek: then, I ask the WG if there is anyone that wants this that they should make an issue on github for that # 23:26 wilkie jasnell: it has been discussed many times and we've always resolved that what we have is what we want # 23:27 wilkie eprodrom: I think tantek is proposing that it would be the same but a separate document that is linked separately # 23:27 wilkie tantek: to be clear, I'm not proposing this. just that people should bring that up. # 23:27 wilkie eprodrom: do we have more to discuss about liaison to annotations? # 23:28 wilkie eprodrom: if that is the case, then we I say we take a 10 minute break and come back to micropub discussion # 23:28 wilkie eprodrom: ok. let's take a 10 minute break and come back at 3:45pm # 23:28 Loqi I added a countdown for 12/1 3:45pm (#5770) # 23:28 eprodrom Oh, I didn't know that worked kevinmarks2, kevinmarks3 and kevinmarks4 joined the channel
# 23:34 Loqi I added a countdown for 12/1 3:40pm (#5771) # 23:43 Loqi Countdown set by wilkie on 12/1/15 at 3:34pm jasnell joined the channel
# 23:44 Loqi eprodrom: ok. let's take a 10 minute break and come back # 23:44 Loqi Countdown set by wilkie on 12/1/15 at 3:28pm jasnell joined the channel
# 23:45 azaroth scribenick: azaroth # 23:45 azaroth eprodrom: Group photo. If we have everyone here till the end, can do it when we finish the agenda. Before dinner # 23:46 Zakim I don't understand 'forget everything you know', aaronpk # 23:46 azaroth ... good. Any other agenda items? # 23:46 azaroth ... if not, aaronpk can you take the floor on next steps for micropub # 23:47 azaroth aaronpk: Getting back to Micropub, we've been making progress and would like to continue developing it # 23:47 azaroth ... push it forward as ED and with a goal of making it align with activity pump # 23:47 azaroth ... lots of hope for that. If you've been reading the draft, there's lots of things that are different from March # 23:47 azaroth ... obviously still needs work # 23:48 azaroth ... most fleshed out part is creating objects, other operations happy to keep getting feedback on, and changing. # 23:48 azaroth ... would like to propose as ED to continue to work on in the WG # 23:48 azaroth ... What else would people like to see? # 23:48 azaroth eprodrom: Chris? # 23:49 azaroth cwebber2: I read it over. Two major things - one was that the MF encoded form says ... # 23:49 azaroth aaronpk: A discrepancy got fixed between should and must # 23:49 azaroth cwebber2: You fixed it :) # 23:49 azaroth ... Now you've changed to must handle it which is great # 23:50 azaroth ... Main thought was, have you thought about server to server? # 23:50 azaroth ... WebMention does it for a specific set of things # 23:50 azaroth ... specifically about mentioning you and informing about that. It doesn't do stuff like posting baby photos # 23:50 tantek both Quill and Woodwind do server to server Micropub right? # 23:50 azaroth ... Or not specifically mentioning you # 23:51 azaroth ... Looks like it could do federation, which would advance the group # 23:51 azaroth ... we would get a better understanding of where we are. Looks like most of S2S is already there # 23:51 azaroth aaronpk: server to server has always confused me # 23:51 kevinmarks the silo.pub federation stuff kyle has been discussing covers that too # 23:51 azaroth ... no good lines for what a client is, chrome might talk to an application server that posts to a web server # 23:52 azaroth ... most apps send data to their own server, which sends data to another server # 23:52 azaroth ... which is acting as a client ... so now where's the server? # 23:52 azaroth cwebber2: Specifically about sending client to a server to create on the server # 23:52 azaroth ... Use android app to check latest things, but there's also updating the graph amongst other servers # 23:52 azaroth ... webmention updates the graph of what servers know about # 23:53 azaroth ... micropub could do the same thing with very little adjustment # 23:53 Zakim sees eprodrom, kevinmarks on the speaker queue # 23:53 azaroth rhiaro: like side effects? # 23:53 Zakim sees eprodrom, kevinmarks on the speaker queue # 23:53 azaroth cwebber2: Even the non side effects part of describing what happened on the other server # 23:53 azaroth aaronpk: Advantage? # 23:53 azaroth cwebber2: could convey webmention over something like this # 23:53 tantek I've got a pretty good idea why webmention and micropub are distinct and separate (differen trust pre-requisites and user models). # 23:53 azaroth ... one thing the doc doesn't speecify that IWC doesn't have an answer for # 23:54 azaroth aaronpk: Is the combination of micro + webmention missing something? # 23:54 azaroth cwebber2: Private notifications # 23:54 azaroth aaronpk: Nothing in spec form yet, but some experiments with PuSH and WebMention # 23:54 azaroth cwebber2: You can convey the same type of terms, like RSVP ... all the same things can be done? # 23:54 azaroth ... via webMention # 23:55 azaroth ... the same set of functionality can be done, or is about linking document based web? # 23:55 azaroth aaronpk: I need to think about that :) # 23:55 azaroth ... first reaction is that private experiments, the answer is yes, but not sure if it's the best way to do it # 23:55 azaroth ... have also involved the server acting on behalf of the user and getting a Bearer token # 23:55 azaroth ... to fetch private content # 23:56 azaroth ... fits in reasonably, not necessarily the best way # 23:56 azaroth cwebber2: asked for One thing you can't do. That kind of subscription model doesn't seem to fit in between the two specs now # 23:56 azaroth kevinmarks: Abstraction between the two models is where we're colliding # 23:56 azaroth ... webmention is purely this site links to you, it may mean something # 23:56 azaroth ... and micropub which is post something to a site # 23:57 azaroth ... activitypump combines the two # 23:57 azaroth ... so webmention is an outbox post which relates to someone else # 23:57 azaroth ... sense is that there's an intermediary that does it for you, but there's something else that handles it # 23:57 azaroth eprodrom: AS all the way through. Posting to a client server endpoint is the same as server to server # 23:57 Zakim sees eprodrom, kevinmarks on the speaker queue # 23:58 azaroth cwebber2: If we can get things to a certain point, it would help to get more overlap and convergence # 23:58 azaroth eprodrom: to the queue ... being me ... :) # 23:58 azaroth ... My question is about post-type-discovery # 23:58 azaroth ... what extent is the work being synchronized, and what extent is that work influencing micropub, or already aligned? # 23:58 tantek q+ to note why webmention (federation) and micropub (API) are distinct and separate (different trust pre-requisites, user models, canonical data). # 23:58 Zakim sees eprodrom, kevinmarks, tantek on the speaker queue # 23:58 azaroth aaronpk: Haven't considered PTD -- one is for reading, the other writing # 23:59 azaroth ... vocab is all vocab, so related to PTD # 23:59 azaroth sandro: You can remove the type and infer it # 23:59 azaroth eprodrom: Interested in keeping the vocab aligned, if it already is, great # 23:59 azaroth aaronpk: Not creating its own vocab, it uses the microformats vocab
Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-12-01]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86952&oldid=86951
rene Any news on how to remotely join the f2f meeting?
kevinmarks morning. I'm still on caltrain; ETA SF ~9:50am so you are going to beat me there
RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/12/01-social-irc
ben_thatmustbeme should i present+ though remote?
jasnell Current open github issues: https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues
tantek UPDATED PROPOSAL: All JSON-LD related details should go into a separate section (e.g. Appendix: Considerations for JSON-LD similar to the section in Annotations WG spec, but open to Editor alternatives) and also allowed in the Extensions section. Both typical publishers and developers should not have to worry about JSONLD.
rhiaro PROPOSED: http://www.w3.org/wiki/Post-type-discovery addresses Issue-4.
sandro RESOLVED: CLOSE ISSUE-4 addressed by http://www.w3.org/wiki/Post-type-discovery which can proceed on its own
cwebber2 tantek: https://identi.ca/cwebber
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