#social 2015-12-02

2015-12-02 UTC
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azaroth ... if you don't know anything about micropub and you get a request you could use PTD to decide what to do with the request, per Amy
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eprodrom ack kevinmarks
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Zakim sees eprodrom, tantek on the speaker queue
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azaroth eprodrom: Good principle to follow
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eprodrom ack eprodrom
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Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
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azaroth kevinmarks: Sense of separation here. We are using micropub to route things between systems
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azaroth ... one example is ??? that uses instagram and micropub
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cwebber2 q+
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Zakim sees tantek, cwebber on the speaker queue
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rhiaro s/???/ownyourgram
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azaroth another example is silo.pub that maps from MF to various things
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azaroth ... it wraps blog in an envelope to post to blogger, or finds the image to send to flickr
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azaroth ... mostly individual things we've built
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azaroth ... lots of targeted protocols that are moving together, whereas you have a bigger suite
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azaroth ... partly where the mappings get odd
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eprodrom q?
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Zakim sees tantek, cwebber on the speaker queue
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azaroth Tantek: different kind of answer. What drove the different protocols. WebMention happened first.
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eprodrom ack tantek
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Zakim tantek, you wanted to note why webmention (federation) and micropub (API) are distinct and separate (different trust pre-requisites, user models, canonical data).
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Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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kevinmarks azaroth: ownyourgram.com you sign into instagram and it posts your photos to your own site
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azaroth ... different user model between federation and users.
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azaroth ... Conceptually defend the distinction. Federation standpoint it's FYI. THe receiver is not required to do anything on any timescale
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azaroth ... other than how you validate it. After that there's suggested things you can do. If it has X content, then it's a comment and you should copy it to your post as a reply
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azaroth ... but the ultimate decision of action is on the receiever. It has its own agency
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azaroth ... all the boundaries for federation are corssed
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azaroth ... for an API scenario, both ends are under the control of the same user
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azaroth ... so the user issues a command to create something, then the server MUST create it
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azaroth ... it's a hard requirement, so very different from auth and user agency perspective, permissions, trust, number of actors etc.
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sandro q?
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Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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azaroth ... don't do auth for federation, you just send it
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azaroth ... Maybe wrong with drawing the difference, but lots of differences?
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azaroth sandro: Clear to me
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azaroth tantek: User 1 vs user 2, rather than one user and thing 1 vs thing 2
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azaroth cwebber2: Same technical design could do both
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azaroth ... webmention is cool in that it's very minimal
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azaroth tantek: a different contract
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azaroth cwebber2: You could emulate in activity pump, nice that it doesn't require a lot of work
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azaroth ... if I run my own pump io server, I know that I'm posting to my thing. The same design and serialization.
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azaroth ... little distinction between what is a client and a server
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rhiaro q+
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Zakim sees cwebber, rhiaro on the speaker queue
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azaroth ... don't always control the server. Might decide that you're a spammer even if you have an account, so might still filter
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azaroth ... if I set up my own server, better not do that to myself
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azaroth ... same concepts could be accomplished with same tech, more usable in the long run
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azaroth ... even with lack of distinction, it's not as big a division as you might thing
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azaroth think
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azaroth rhiaro: my micropub endpoint when it receives a post sends a webmention
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azaroth ... webmention and mf completely separate so no requirement but that's how I hooked it up
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azaroth ... with activity pump you must do it
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azaroth cwebber2: The receiving server might reject it
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azaroth ... what happens if you do mpub post to a third party? Do you have to "own" the micropub endpoint?
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azaroth tantek: You have to be oauthed up
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azaroth ... but not in webmention
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azaroth ... which is essential for lightweight federation
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kevinmarks try silo.pub with twitter
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azaroth cwebber2: Right not saying it's not useful, but that it would also be useful if mpub also did federation
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azaroth aaronpk: another difference
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azaroth ... mpub as a way to create content, the content is part of the request
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azaroth ... the bearer token is prearranged
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azaroth ... webmention is only by reference, content is not in the request
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azaroth ... don't say here's my photo etc
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kevinmarks q+
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Zakim sees cwebber, rhiaro, kevinmarks on the speaker queue
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rhiaro q-
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Zakim sees cwebber, kevinmarks on the speaker queue
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azaroth ... that would be trackback, and garbage because it's unauthenticated
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azaroth ... only way to send content is if it's authenticated
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azaroth cwebber2: or go back and verify it, but then you might as well not send it
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azaroth eprodrom: activity pump does two legged oauth
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azaroth ... so server to server
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azaroth aaronpk: for mpub there's no URL until the request is handled
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azaroth ... if you used the same protocol for webmentions, you're delivering the contents of the post
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azaroth ... but unless you authenticate there's no way to trust it
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azaroth ... and they probably want to verify it anyway
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azaroth ... so just send the url
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azaroth ... so it's just what we have now :)
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azaroth sandro: You might auth once every long period of time?
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azaroth eprodrom: So because of pingback style of webmention, there's something here you might be interested in, it doesn't make sense to use the same interaction
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azaroth ... if it was PuSH service, ala activity pump, it would make sense?
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azaroth aaronpk: Interesting. Pretty sure most PUSH systems dont' send the contents in the broadcast
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azaroth ... that would look more like micropub
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azaroth ... if PuSH has too many limitations, then may it's just micropub and that's where it fits in
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eprodrom q?
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Zakim sees cwebber, kevinmarks on the speaker queue
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azaroth ... not the same use case as micropub
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azaroth cwebber2: suggesting that it's easy to drop into an existing blog which is hard with activity pump
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees cwebber, kevinmarks on the speaker queue
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tantek q+ to note some brainstorming attempts to do site-to-site micropub
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Zakim sees cwebber, kevinmarks, tantek on the speaker queue
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azaroth aaronpk: extending to also handle distribution of content for subscribers is different from webmention
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eprodrom ack cwebber
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Zakim sees kevinmarks, tantek on the speaker queue
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azaroth cwebber2: spec is well written. Main concern is that it doesn't talk about specific silos
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azaroth aaronpk: Also anchors it in time
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azaroth tantek: +1 :)
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eprodrom q?
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Zakim sees kevinmarks, tantek on the speaker queue
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eprodrom ack kevinmarks
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Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
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azaroth s/it doesn't/it shouldn't/
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azaroth kevinmarks: presumption for sending stuff out is that it's replication
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azaroth ... might be a way to couple the two together
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eprodrom q?
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Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
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eprodrom ack tantek
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Zakim tantek, you wanted to note some brainstorming attempts to do site-to-site micropub
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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azaroth tantek: to argue against myself ... we have had some experiments and one production use of webmention like an api and webm for federation
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azaroth ... sending a copy somewhere is like federation, for federation-hostile people
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azaroth ... with webmention we have bridgy, that built a protocol for publishing on top of it
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azaroth ... it acts like micropub in a way
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azaroth ... if you send a particular mention to one place it'll publish content to another server
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azaroth ... take this specific action that is triggered by a webmention
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azaroth ... brainstorming on server to server, with distinct users
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azaroth ... didnt' scale well. If you're one someone's website and they have a comment box, you want it to post to YOUR site not just their site
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azaroth ... so it should act like a micropub client and then use webmention to get it back
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cwebber2 eprodrom: I'm staying shut up but you should mention what pump.io does here ;)
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azaroth ... if you auth in ... no you might not want to give out arbitrary permissions
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azaroth ... so walked down the path a bit and it didn't seem like a good trust design
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azaroth kevinmarks: have web actions via client side voodoo
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azaroth tantek: without auth
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azaroth kevinmarks: looks like it's going to one site, actually to others
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bengo q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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azaroth tantek: federation of all the little buttons on posts like like, reply, bookmark, etc. a way to have sites take actions to a different site
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azaroth ... users configure their client to handle them
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azaroth ... built a shim with web components
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azaroth ... a protocol handler that makes it work
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azaroth ... your site will take over the functionality of those buttons on the remote site
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azaroth ... UI federation? not sure how we conceptually captured it
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azaroth kevinmarks: The example of it working is woodwind
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azaroth tantek: with micropub?
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azaroth kevinmarks: with all of them
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azaroth tantek: woodwind is a reader that you sign into with your own domain and it tracks what you're reading
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kevinmarks woodwind is reader.kylewm.com
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azaroth ... if your own site supports micropub you can sign in there and it posts to your site
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azaroth ... if you don't, it can fall back to other options
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bengo q+ to ask about separation of request semantics and resource representation
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Zakim sees bengo on the speaker queue
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eprodrom q?
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Zakim sees bengo on the speaker queue
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eprodrom ack bengo
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Zakim bengo, you wanted to ask about separation of request semantics and resource representation
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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azaroth bengo: Maybe controversial, but keeping the object representation separate from what to do with the object. Curious why edit this or post this or delete this is in the body, rather than the method?
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cwebber2 q+
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Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 to respond
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azaroth aaronpk: Reason is to allow delegation of functionality, rpc-style.
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azaroth ... where you might have a static website other than GET, but you can delegate to some other endpoint
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azaroth ... but you can't delete that endpoint
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azaroth ... the objects don't live under the micropub endpoint
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azaroth ... thus the RPC style
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azaroth ... Could say that the endpoint could delete based on a query string, but seems contrived for no particular reason
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azaroth eprodrom: to answer that for other things... for activity pump... pump.io does do that. One way to follow someone is to post your id to their following list
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azaroth ... you add yourself to their followers
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azaroth ... or deleting an object directly
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azaroth ... managing some of the life cycle of the social graph works that way.
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azaroth ... Some things are harder to do like that. If I like something, posting to a list of likers might make sense
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azaroth bengo: Unliking a thing seems either deleting a like resource, or posting an unlike, could try different ways until something works
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azaroth ... but could be just one way
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azaroth eprodrom: we would concentrate on the one way of using AS as written
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azaroth ... always been a logging style format we repurpose as a command langage
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rhiaro "It's not the worst" ;)
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azaroth ... how that happened. Interesting to reconsider purely from a REST mechanism without a command language
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azaroth bengo: having it all in the message is useful for websockets based things too not inherently bad, might just hear that's not restful over and over again
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azaroth eprodrom: expectation has been there'd be a stream of activities, natural to think in atompub style of posting an activity to the feed
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eprodrom q?
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Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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eprodrom ack cwebber
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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azaroth cwebber2: couple of CRUD activities, but also others like join ... no HTTP verb
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azaroth eprodrom: COuld have a members resource and posting an ID to it
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azaroth cwebber2: I think this group resolved ... should we use all these verbs...everyone was using the AS verbs not HTTP methods
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azaroth ... so do AS first
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eprodrom q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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azaroth tantek: I recall that as well. Don't want to have the argument again :)
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azaroth eprodrom: wrap up with micropub? anthing to discuss in next 10 minutes?
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azaroth cwebber2: ready to go to ED?
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azaroth ... I think we should propose it?
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cwebber2 PROPOSED: Move MicroPub to Editor's Draft status
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cwebber2 +1
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tantek +1
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kevinmarks +1
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wilkie +1
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aaronpk +1
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rhiaro +1
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eprodrom +1
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azaroth +0
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sandro +1
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bengo +0
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azaroth jasnell, et al: Make it explicit regarding moving to WD in the status section
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eprodrom RESOLVED: Move MicroPub to Editor's Draft status
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cwebber2 whoooooo
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azaroth eprodrom: Resolved :)
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azaroth ... have 90 minutes left, one more item on agenda
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aaronpk jasnell, what was your specific wording?
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azaroth ... everyone in late afternoon doldrums. Dinner at 7.
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azaroth ... hopefully group photo will not take half an hour
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azaroth tantek: 7th floor with bay bridge
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azaroth [temporarily adjourn]
jasnell, azaroth, kevinmarks2, bengo and tantek joined the channel
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aaronpk scribenick: aaronpk
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aaronpk TOPIC: ActivityPump
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aaronpk cwebber2: talking about bringing activitypump to editor's draft
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aaronpk ... i'm assuming everyone's familiar with it by now. sandro said before basically AP is ActivityStreams in API form
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aaronpk ... so, in that sense, if there's things peopel want to talk about specifically i'm happy to talk about them
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aaronpk ... i have a few things i'd love to go over while we have people her
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aaronpk ... but it might be more useful to have people who are not me say things
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azaroth q+ to say it looked very good :D
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Zakim sees azaroth on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 q?
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Zakim sees azaroth on the speaker queue
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aaronpk ... github is being used for issue tracking
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aaronpk sandro: can you paste the link to that?
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azaroth ack azaroth
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Zakim azaroth, you wanted to say it looked very good :D
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 https://github.com/w3c-social/activitypump
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eprodrom q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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aaronpk azaroth: looked really good to me
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cwebber2 https://github.com/w3c-social/activitypump/issues
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bengo q+
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Zakim sees bengo on the speaker queue
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aaronpk tantek: one request is to link to the issues from the document header
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aaronpk cwebber2: sure i'll make an issue for that right now
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aaronpk ... so there are issues on it right now but i don't know if any of these are blockers to take this to editor's draft and if there ar ei'm happy to talk about them
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aaronpk ... i think activitypump is probably unsurprising right now
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eprodrom q+
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Zakim sees bengo, eprodrom on the speaker queue
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aaronpk ... the first question is is there anything specific someone wants to raise in person or should i start
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eprodrom ack bengo
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Zakim sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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aaronpk bengo: i think it's generally pleasant to read. i filed a bunch of issues. i think that the general part that's hard to wrap my head around is how to initiate crud operations around activities
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aaronpk ... would be good to have more specific error responses defined
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aaronpk ... if i say update facebook.com what should happen? 401? or maybe I did actually change whatever that was and am trying to record it
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aaronpk ... i'm having a hard time rationalizing triggering activities and recording activities in the same outbox
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Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-12-01]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86982&oldid=86981
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aaronpk ... one way of resolving it is to have different endpoints for triggering activities vs recording them
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aaronpk eprodrom: we were talking about this during the break. maybe having CRUD processes happen through posting and updating the object itself and how that would work
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cwebber2 q+
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Zakim sees eprodrom, cwebber on the speaker queue
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aaronpk ... you'd keep a collection of everything you publish, once you hav ea permalink for hte thing you can read/update/delete really easily
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aaronpk .. would you maintain one single feed/collection of everything you publish? would you keep different collections by type?
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aaronpk ... one collection of videos, of images, of text, or does it not matter?
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cwebber2 q-
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Zakim sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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tantek q+ to ask if the intent is to keep ActivityPump use of terms like "displayName" in sync with AS2 changes e.g. displayName->name ?
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Zakim sees eprodrom, tantek on the speaker queue
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aaronpk ... the meechanism we use is also how opensocial does activities
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cwebber2 q+
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Zakim sees eprodrom, tantek, cwebber on the speaker queue
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aaronpk ... most of the crud mechanism was handled by the rest of the opensocial api
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aaronpk ... it would be an interesting exercise, chris, if we were to think about that as our mechanism for crudding stuff that lives on the server
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aaronpk cwebber2: i'm not sure what...
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aaronpk eprodrom: having a collection/feed of "stuff evan published", evan's outbox of stuff he made, not activities, but text, videos, etc
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aaronpk ... and so the primary way you'd create things is to post to that feed and manage it that way instead of using activitystreams as a command language for crud
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aaronpk cwebber2: i think that sounds mostly fine, but only create should be replaced by that
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aaronpk ... kind of what james was saying, when you are distributing it to everyone else you still wrap it in a create, but for creating it initially yes
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aaronpk ... but for updating and deleting using the existing verbs
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aaronpk eprodrom: right now we have get put and delete on objects which should do ...
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aaronpk cwebber2: we talked about removing those http verbs an hour ago
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aaronpk ... i'm still referencing owen's thing from a long time ago
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tantek did find the easteregg to his site ;)
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aaronpk ... if the initial thing you're creating isn't wrapped in a create it simplifies things
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eprodrom B-)
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aaronpk ... we should test it in an implementation
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aaronpk sandro: doesn't delete have the same thing?
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aaronpk cwebber2: you use post for everything, but if you're creating something you just put the object somewhere
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aaronpk sandro: what about the other crud operations?
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aaronpk cwebber2: update and delete are pure side effect and then become a log
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aaronpk ... you're creating the object in your database that is the log, but you're only putting it there as the side effect
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aaronpk eprodrom: i don't like making it an exclusive thing
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aaronpk ... i don't like posting something to a feed that then changes in the feed
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aaronpk ... i expect if i post something i don't want it to change
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aaronpk ... even though i had posted the object it would then come back wrapped in a create
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aaronpk ... i'm saying i post an object to the feed and i see a bunch of activities, what happened to the object? oh its actually a property of one of the activities
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aaronpk ... i think if you post an object to a feed then it should come back in the feed
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aaronpk cwebber2: i understand in principle
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aaronpk ... it's also not the biggest detail in the world if we don't do this
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sandro q?
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Zakim sees eprodrom, tantek, cwebber on the speaker queue
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aaronpk ... it doesn't change things fundamentally. i can live with whatever
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eprodrom ack eprodrom
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Zakim sees tantek, cwebber on the speaker queue
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aaronpk sorry didn't catch the gist of what bengo was saying
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aaronpk cwebber2: amy you were saying if we moved activitystreams to a more content distribution then that would bring it closer to micropub
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tantek bengo - could you restate your concern?
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aaronpk sandro: this seems like a place where activitypump is a complete coin flip between using http verbs or not
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bengo Does GET /outbox mean
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bengo List the things I triggered to create their side effect?
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bengo Or List the things I've done (feed)
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bengo I don't think it can be both
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bengo s/thing/understand how
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aaronpk cwebber2: micropub is closer to what we're doing, where if create is not wrapped in a thing it just makes it
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aaronpk sandro: let me rephrase. it often seems like the entire industry is in love with restful apis. i don't know why personally.
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aaronpk tantek: because the term is ambuguous
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aaronpk sandro: specifically with HTTP PATCH to update and that is a thing that's really popular
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aaronpk ... evan you did that survey across a bunch of apis
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aaronpk ... i don't know why that's so popular, and i hesitate to go in a different direction
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aaronpk cwebber2: there ar e3 things being proposed here
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aaronpk ... activitystreams - everything is wrapped in an activity
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aaronpk ... REST - you use http verbs
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aaronpk ... the current indieweb style - closer to what owen suggested, don't wrap create in an activity
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bengo I can weigh in as to why command semantics outside of request body is useful (caching intermediaries like varnish can't easily understand semantics)
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aaronpk evanpro: i don't understand what the advantage is
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aaronpk cwebber2: i'm not sold on either of these but
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aaronpk ... two reasons. one is the ACL thing, when you post the initial thing you attach the ACL to the initial object
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aaronpk eprodrom: you can do that right now
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kevinmarks q+ to state issues with over-literal REST CRUD
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Zakim sees tantek, cwebber, kevinmarks on the speaker queue
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aaronpk lost track of that whole thread
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aaronpk cwebber2: the second is trying to move towards a more content-centric version of things
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aaronpk eprodrom: which is what i was saying, have a feed of content things
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aaronpk cwebber2: ironically, if we end up doing what i suggested, the activity stream of what other people are reading is activity centric but the client-server thing is content centric
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aaronpk ... but now we have to move to a model where anything that doesn't have a side effect we wrap in a create
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aaronpk ... it's a shift in the complexity, but we have these separate things and wehave to make a decision
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aaronpk eprodrom: we don't have to make a decision right now, we can mark it as an issue
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees tantek, cwebber, kevinmarks on the speaker queue
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bengo q+ to request answer to my orig question "What happens if I POST /outbox update facebook.com"?
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Zakim sees tantek, cwebber, kevinmarks, bengo on the speaker queue
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aaronpk cwebber2: i'm adding a note to my previous todo that evan hates it and we should discuss
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eprodrom ack tantek
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Zakim tantek, you wanted to ask if the intent is to keep ActivityPump use of terms like "displayName" in sync with AS2 changes e.g. displayName->name ?
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Zakim sees cwebber, kevinmarks, bengo on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 q-
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Zakim sees kevinmarks, bengo on the speaker queue
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aaronpk tantek: is your intent in AP to keep terminology in sync with activitystreams? so do the displayName -> name change?
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aaronpk cwebber2: yes because it's just the API version of activitystreams
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eprodrom q?
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Zakim sees kevinmarks, bengo on the speaker queue
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eprodrom ack kevinmarks
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Zakim kevinmarks, you wanted to state issues with over-literal REST CRUD
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Zakim sees bengo on the speaker queue
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aaronpk ... 'whatever man just go with the flow of activity streams'
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aaronpk kevinmarks: following sandro's point about rest and crud. the issue is that the crud assumption is you are the owner of the resource completely
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aaronpk ... when people go to the contacts app in their phone and see a bunch of emails they delete them and then wonder why gmail autocomplete doesn't work
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aaronpk tantek: there's an additional semantic that the http verbs didn't capture
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aaronpk cwebber2: we aren't planning on using http verbs anyway
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eprodrom q?
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Zakim sees bengo on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 q+
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eprodrom ack bengo
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Zakim bengo, you wanted to request answer to my orig question "What happens if I POST /outbox update facebook.com"?
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Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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sandro q+ to ask a trivial question about section 9
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Zakim sees cwebber, sandro on the speaker queue
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aaronpk tantek: a key design feature of using POST for everything was that you can exercise the whole protocol via a simple HTML form
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aaronpk ... which is easier than figuring out procedural stuff
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eprodrom q?
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Zakim sees cwebber, sandro on the speaker queue
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aaronpk bengo: i still think it's unclear, if we're triggering crud operations, what happens if i put an update activity where the object is facebook.com in my outbox? what should I expect?
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aaronpk cwebber2: so you're saying we should document responses when you do something screwy?
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aaronpk eprodrom: i think pump.io silently accepts as long as it's not an object in its own domain
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aaronpk bengo: does outbox mean always do this thing if you can?
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eprodrom q?
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Zakim sees cwebber, sandro on the speaker queue
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aaronpk eprodrom: that's a tricky part of it, once things are outside the server's control to what extent does it accept things or say "you can't update facebook.com" or does it just accept it
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aaronpk sandro: your feed can say "you became president, you deleted facebook, etc"
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aaronpk bengo: i would recommend not accepting it if it's a command that didn't work
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aaronpk eprodrom: i think that makes the most sense, if this is a thing you're going to execute then try to execute and give back an answer. if it's something you don't understand because you can't do it, then assume the user is talking about something that happened somewhere else.
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aaronpk sandro: what about adding a flag that says who is expected to perform the action
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aaronpk bengo: now that i'm talking about it out loud that may not even be necessary.
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aaronpk cwebber2: i think we just need to document how side effects work more
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bengo To record your own activities, post to your /inbox
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aaronpk .. activitypump has strong opinions about what to do about side effects
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eprodrom q?
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Zakim sees cwebber, sandro on the speaker queue
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eprodrom ack cwebber
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Zakim sees sandro on the speaker queue
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sandro q-
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aaronpk cwebber2: i have things i want to talk about with people in the room
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aaronpk ... i'm going to start with things least likely to explode
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eprodrom ack sandro
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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aaronpk sandro: section 9 includes things about binary data but then talks about reply objects
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aaronpk cwebber2: that looks like it's mis structured
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aaronpk cwebber2: okay i don't think that any of these things are blockers on hitting editor's draft
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aaronpk .. but there are some things that are underspecified in activitystreams or other things
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aaronpk ... the first is activitypump, discovery and profile stuff
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aaronpk ... suggests something that i don't think anyone suggests implementers to do
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aaronpk ... in the paris meeting i threw in something stupid.
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aaronpk ... previously pump.io did webfinger-type things. it seems like with the agreement with follow-your-nose, then at the very least webfinger-like things will be handled in a follow-your-nose way
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aaronpk ... so what are we going to do
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bengo define inbox, outbox, feed as linkRelations
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tantek wheeeee identity!
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bengo get html, link response header, webfinger support for free
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aaronpk eprodrom: that's a good question. one thing we could do is define ... how many endpoints do we have for a user? 4-5?
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aaronpk cwebber2: you can get the ednpoints for a user once you have their profile
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rhiaro rel=inbox ~ rel=webmention, rel=outbox ~ rel=micropub ... maybe??
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aaronpk eprodrom: there are 4-5? followers, following, inbox, outbox? we could define link relations for all of those
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bengo profile == link rel me?
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tantek rhiaro, I'd suggest clustering them with a prefix, like ap-outbox ap-inbox etc.
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aaronpk ... you could use whatever discovery mechanism you wanted, links, rels on a elements, or webfinger, or http headers, or...
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azaroth_ q+ to express concern :)
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Zakim sees azaroth_ on the speaker queue
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aaronpk ... that might be an easy way to punt on this
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tantek whereas rel values normally express links to *user* semantics
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tantek like a user's inbox
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aaronpk azaroth_: that seems like a lot of link rels to register
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tantek like a URL a browser could load and display, not an API endpoint
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aaronpk cwebber2: another suggestion, do a follow your nose thing that takes you to a json document that describes your profile
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aaronpk ... what do peopel feel about that?
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aaronpk eprodrom: that seems fine
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aaronpk azaroth_: (thumbsup)
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kevinmarks things have lots of endpoints already
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azaroth_ +1 to linking to a profile, not linking to potentially many endpoints
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aaronpk cwebber2: i shouldn't say JSONLD, i should say activitystreams with implied context
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aaronpk tantek: it sounds like you have an issue defined.
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aaronpk cwebber2: okay i'll file an issue on this and cc evan
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kevinmarks linking to many endpoints is common
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bengo q+
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Zakim sees azaroth_, bengo on the speaker queue
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aaronpk eprodrom: okay i like that a lot better
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kevinmarks try looking at any wordpress site
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eprodrom q?
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Zakim sees azaroth_, bengo on the speaker queue
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azaroth q-
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Zakim sees azaroth_, bengo on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 q+
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Zakim sees azaroth_, bengo, cwebber on the speaker queue
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eprodrom ack azaroth_
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Zakim azaroth_, you wanted to express concern :)
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Zakim sees bengo, cwebber on the speaker queue
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aaronpk tantek: if you're going to define a suite of link rels, then prefix them with ap- or something so that you don't conflict
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aaronpk cwebber2: maybe ap-profile or something?
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aaronpk eprodrom: i'll also open an issue, i'm not sure discovery is part of the API document
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aaronpk ... for example if i was twitter and implementing activitypump, you wouldn't have to discover it
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aaronpk cwebber2: along with amy's idea of implementation levels could this be a thing that is an optional implementation level
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eprodrom q?
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Zakim sees bengo, cwebber on the speaker queue
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kevinmarks on a wordpress blog I see pingback, alternate, EditURI and https://api.w.org/ as rels
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aaronpk eprodrom: yeah that's fine
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eprodrom ack bengo
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Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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aaronpk bengo: in the times where it says go to a uri and it returns a json document. but if you send it an accept header with HTML only then it shouldn't be required to return JSON. leave room in the spec for content negotiation.
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eprodrom q?
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Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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eprodrom ack cwebber
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aaronpk cwebber2: authentication
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bengo q+
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Zakim sees bengo on the speaker queue
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aaronpk ... this group has said it's not in scope, but by necessity is part of the specs. so far micropub and activitypump put OAuth 2 in the spec.
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aaronpk tantek: strictly speaking, the charter does not include specs for authorization and identity
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aaronpk eprodrom: yeah that makes sense
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aaronpk tantek: that's the restriction, but that doesn't mean we can't reference other specs
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aaronpk ... we're all encouraged to make that modular
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azaroth +1
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aaronpk eprodrom: yeah i think that doesn't make sense to include a full dependency on any particular
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azaroth Section X: Security Concerns. You should do authentication.
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aaronpk cwebber2: both actiivtypump and micropub, but not solid, say OAuth 2.0 bearer tokens and the specifics are not beyond that
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bengo q?
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Zakim sees bengo on the speaker queue
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aaronpk ... or do we want to say it's definitely OAuth 2 bearer tokens or should we say we recommend that and leave it open to replace it
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aaronpk tantek: maybe if it's an aspect in common between actiivtypump and micropub it's worth highlighting in the social web protocol document, and if there's enough critical mass that's a point forward
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aaronpk cwebber2: we adopted it mostly becasue the indieweb documented it
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aaronpk ... buti'm not sure this is the best way forward but it seems to be a solution
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azaroth q+ to +1 not mandating a particular version of a particular auth system
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Zakim sees bengo, azaroth on the speaker queue
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aaronpk sandro: the important thing is to say we need fthis sort of functionality and then one possible solution is OAuth 2
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aaronpk q+ to differentiate between authentication and authorization
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Zakim sees bengo, azaroth, aaronpk on the speaker queue
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aaronpk eprodrom: OAuth 2 is not a simple thing
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aaronpk sandro: should we spell that all out?
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aaronpk eprodrom: NO
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aaronpk bengo: oauth is a framework. it has things like client credentials for client authentication. i'm implementing openid connect, and yeah it's complicated.
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aaronpk eprodrom: and if you're not using SSL with bearer tokens that's bad
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aaronpk cwebber2: so then what do we do?
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aaronpk ... how do we get interoperability?
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aaronpk eprodrom: are we talking about client-server or server-server interop? server-server interop doesn't belong here
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aaronpk ... so client-server interop happens with documentation
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aaronpk cwebber2: so is this so complicated that it doesn't belong in these specs?
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aaronpk ... what is the group's policy on this then?
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aaronpk bengo: if you don't specify it, then there are other good things that will fill the gap
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azaroth q?
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Zakim sees bengo, azaroth, aaronpk on the speaker queue
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tantek q?
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tantek q+
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Zakim sees bengo, azaroth, aaronpk, tantek on the speaker queue
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aaronpk ... if you say 'it must use bearer tokens' then it doesn't really say much
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aaronpk eprodrom: another possibility is putting it in security considerations at the end and say authentication must be present
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aaronpk sandro: we can say we're intentionally not specifying that because it's a continually evolving space
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aaronpk tantek: we can say we're actively looking for implementer feedback
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aaronpk Arnaud: generally working groups stay away from this issue
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aaronpk ... unfortunately it hurts interop because you can't have interop without specifying this
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aaronpk eprodrom: at the risk of asking for crazy proliferation of specs, could it be a separate specification?
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aaronpk tantek: unlikely in this group because it would be outside the charter
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melvster just implemented inboxes + authentication ... ping me if any devs would like a demo
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aaronpk cwebber2: i don't know what to write, anyone want to help?
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aaronpk eprodrom volunteers
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jasnell FYI: AS2.0 Editor's Drafts updated to reflect today's resolutions and editorial comments discussed at the F2F (http://jasnell.github.io/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/activitystreams-core/, http://jasnell.github.io/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/activitystreams-vocabulary/ )
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tantek jasnell++ amazing
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Loqi jasnell has 36 karma
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Arnaud here is what the LDP WG did: http://www.w3.org/TR/2015/REC-ldp-20150226/#security
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aaronpk cwebber2: i have a feeling this will come up again when we look at interop between the specs
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bengo let it come up as an issue
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eprodrom q?
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Zakim sees bengo, azaroth, aaronpk, tantek on the speaker queue
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bengo q-
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Zakim sees azaroth, aaronpk, tantek on the speaker queue
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melvster Arnaud++ good text
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azaroth q-
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cwebber2 q+
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Loqi Arnaud has 29 karma
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aaronpk ... we're going to hit this again, and we can't pretend we won't have to talk about it again
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aaronpk q-
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Zakim sees tantek, cwebber on the speaker queue
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jasnell FYI: implementation for Node.js has been updated as well (npm install activitystrea.ms), as has the working copy of the JSON-LD context document at http://asjsonld.mybluemix.net
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eprodrom q?
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Zakim sees tantek, cwebber on the speaker queue
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azaroth jasnell++
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Loqi jasnell has 37 karma
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eprodrom ack tantek
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Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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aaronpk tantek: i did just pull up our charter to double check, the word identity is not in our charter. the reference to "auth" is one of the inputs from the indieweb community is IndieAuth.
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aaronpk ... so it's an input but not part of the scope and goals
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aaronpk sandro: i remember it being specifically out of scope but can't find an explicit reference in the charter
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aaronpk sandro: i'm more confused about identity since it ties to profile
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aaronpk tantek: i woudl argue that that aspect of identity is in scope
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eprodrom q?
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Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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aaronpk ... if it's not in the charter, you have to argue why it's relevant
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azaroth W3C Trail. You have died of Identity. Would you like to play again?
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bengo Activity Pump inboxes apply equal well to my house or plant or Thing as to my personal profile
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aaronpk sandro: activitystreams has the notion of identity, actors have a URL
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eprodrom q?
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Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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bengo activitysteams does not have identity anymore
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aaronpk tantek: profile URL or ID string is different from the notion of a profile with attributes
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aaronpk we should stop talking about identity, it's tiring my scribe fingers
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melvster aaronpk: sadly, you cant have a social web without identity
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aaronpk jasnell: the activitystreams spec has the notion of actor which has an ID, it has the "person" object type, and it says that if you are going to describe specific properties of a person then you should use vcard.
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cwebber2 we're having an identity crisis
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cwebber2 :O
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aaronpk ... additionally there is profile object type which is a nebulously defined thing that describes something else
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bengo jasnell Profile isn't in here? http://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-vocabulary/#actor-types
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eprodrom q?
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Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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eprodrom ack cwebber?
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Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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bengo fwiw http://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-vocabulary/#dfn-profile thanks jasnell
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sandro sandro: bottom line: we're going to leave identity/profiles fuzzy
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aaronpk cwebber2: what i was going to bring up was transient and private activities?
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aaronpk sandro: would it be okay to leave it out of the first version?
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aaronpk cwebber2: yeah the current version says you have to keep a link and for deleted things you have to keep a tombstone
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aaronpk ... i'm curious about people's thoughts, but not required for bringing to editor's draft
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aaronpk q+ to propose accepting ActivityPump as an editor's draft
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Zakim sees cwebber, aaronpk on the speaker queue
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eprodrom q?
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Zakim sees cwebber, aaronpk on the speaker queue
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eprodrom ack cwebber2
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eprodrom ack cwebber
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tantek q?
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cwebber2 q+
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eprodrom ack aaronpk
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Zakim aaronpk, you wanted to propose accepting ActivityPump as an editor's draft
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Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 q-
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eprodrom q?
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aaronpk PROPOSED: accept ActivityPump as editor's draft
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bengo +1
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melvster +1
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tantek +1
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cwebber2 +1
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azaroth +1
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rhiaro +1
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wilkie +1
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aaronpk +1
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eprodrom +1
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sandro +1
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ben_thatmustbeme +1
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aaronpk sandro: with the intent of putting it on the rec track
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eprodrom RESOLVED: accept ActivityPump as editor's draft
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azaroth :)
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ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2 no need to flip the table :)
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aaronpk tantek: i'd like to thank aaron and chris for their hard work, it shows in these drafts
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aaronpk FIN
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wilkie aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 14 karma
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wilkie rhiaro++
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Loqi rhiaro has 188 karma
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wilkie azaroth++
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tantek wilkie++
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Loqi azaroth has 9 karma
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Loqi wilkie has 24 karma
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aaronpk trackbot, end meeting
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trackbot is ending a teleconference.
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trackbot Zakim, list attendees
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Zakim As of this point the attendees have been Arnaud, csarven, rhiaro, aaronpk, shanehudson, sandro, elf-pavlik, kevinmarks, wilkie, eprodrom, jasnell, ben_thatmustbeme, cwebber,
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Zakim ... tantek, hhalpin, james, tsyesika, wseltzer, akuckartz, shepazu, Rob_Sanderson, Shane_, rene, cwebber2, Benjamin_Young, bengo
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trackbot RRSAgent, please draft minutes
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RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/12/01-social-minutes.html trackbot
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trackbot RRSAgent, bye
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RRSAgent I see no action items
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tantek RRSAgent, make logs public
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ben_thatmustbeme turns on video\
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tantek aside: http://www.w3.org/2013/socialweb/social-wg-charter.html does say: "Other components necessary for building federated/decentralized social Web systems are in scope but will not lead to Recommendation-track work without re-chartering, and should be discussed in the Social Interest Group."
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tantek I believe we could thus develop a W3C Note about identity.
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azaroth will be there about 10:20 or so today, shifted one on campus meeting and the big one was cancelled by someone else :)
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azaroth but need to step out from 12:00 till 1:00
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aaronpk good morning!
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tantek good morning aaronpk !
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rhiaro good breakfast!
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tantek Rene, are you around?
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tantek first thing we have listed this morning is to go over any issues / questions you have
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tantek re: AS2 extensions/features
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tantek https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-12-01#December_2
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eprodrom I'm running a few minutes late.
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kevinmarks my train gets in ~10:10 so there a bit before 10.30 but I can talky in if I'm needed
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tantek our talky is up btw
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tantek talky.io / socialwg
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Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-12-01]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=87028&oldid=86982
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme, tsyesika, elf-pavlik, rene - ^^^ our talky is up
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elf-pavlik thanks tantek!
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tantek if anyone has any more proposed techincal agenda items for today, please add them to : https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-12-01#Proposed_technical_items cc:bengo
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tantek who is on the talky?
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elf-pavlik i just joined
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elf-pavlik but will only listen
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elf-pavlik yes i can hear!
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tantek trackbot, start meeting
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trackbot is preparing a teleconference.
RRSAgent joined the channel
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RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/12/02-social-irc
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trackbot RRSAgent, make logs public
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RRSAgent I have made the request, trackbot
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trackbot Zakim, this will be SOCL
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Zakim I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
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trackbot Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
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trackbot Date: 02 December 2015
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tantek present+
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bengo present+
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aaronpk present+
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wilkie present+
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cwebber2 present~
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rhiaro present+ rhiaro
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sandro present+
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wseltzer present+
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cwebber2 present+ cwebber2
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jasnell_ present+ jasnell
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tantek scribenick: cwebber2
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cwebber2 tantek: the first thing is that cwebber2 had an item to propose
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cwebber2 tantek: the other first thing is to discuss the as2 features from rene but he's not online
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cwebber2 jasnell: he did document it in a github issue
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cwebber2 sandro: let's give him a few hours
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cwebber2 tantek: I agree
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cwebber2 tantek: there were a few things added to the agenda
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cwebber2 tantek: integration user stories. Is that you bengo ?
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cwebber2 bengo: yes
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cwebber2 tantek: how much time do you need? 10 minutes?
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cwebber2 bengo: yes
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cwebber2 tantek: and cwebber2 how much time do you need for the activipy demo
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cwebber2 cwebber2: 10-15 minutes
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cwebber2 tantek: I propose we do those first to give time for rene to show up
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cwebber2 bengo: so there's a sorting user stories wiki page
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bengo https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories#Integration_:_Adding_comments_to_bespoke_software
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tantek 10 minutes for this item
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cwebber2 bengo: this one is close to what we're doing at our company, we give people javascript snippets that people put on their site, templatized
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Loqi Bgoering made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-12-01]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=87029&oldid=87028
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Loqi Cwebber2 made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-12-01]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=87030&oldid=87029
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Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-12-01]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=87031&oldid=87030
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cwebber2 bengo: want to ask how this would work. lots of discovery stuff is about delegating servies
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cwebber2 bengo: frequent problem at big companies is the person who installed a cms no longer works there
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cwebber2 bengo: so webfinger (?) type things are useful in that you don't need to muck with the headers, etc
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rhiaro waves at tsyesika
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cwebber2 bengo: so service discovery is something I've talked about a lot, rather than just point to an activitypump endpoint, they want a traditional comment setup type thing
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tantek present+ tsyesika
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cwebber2 ... how do you do that with this
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cwebber2 sandro: is the comment box normally an iframe
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cwebber2 bengo: in our case no, most cases yes
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tsyesika present+
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eprodrom_ q+
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cwebber2 bengo: in our case it's mostly because customers like to use css to arbitrarily change things even though that makes our lives hard
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tantek present+ eprodrom
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cwebber2 sandro: so do users have accounts on your or their system
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cwebber2 bengo: it's pluggable
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cwebber2 bengo: when a user does something that needs to plug in, it gets a token, and ..?
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tantek ack eprodrom
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cwebber2 ... a lot of our things our these things but have been done internally as a proprietary way
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cwebber2 eprodrom: it's an interesting use case because many things do stuff like reviews, likes on a page., etc
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cwebber2 eprodrom_: there's a few ways it could work
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cwebber2 eprodrom_: on pumpio if you want to do something on a remote site, you log into their server via your server, via outh
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cwebber2 eprodrom_: so their server acts like a client to your server
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cwebber2 eprodrom_: it's a complicated mechanism, there are other ways it could work. There are some other patterns you may want to implement.
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cwebber2 eprodrom_: I don't know if you collect posts around the web but you could do that too
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cwebber2 eprodrom_: I think that's actually an interesting case for the api
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cwebber2 eprodrom_: my gut feeling is that it requires things like a global firehose that everybody aims their public posts towards
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cwebber2 ... and whoever wants to can drink from that firehose
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aaronpk q+ to bring up comment services via webmention
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Zakim sees aaronpk on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 ... but I think it' an interesting issue
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cwebber2 ... might be worth sketching out as a little api type protocol situation
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees aaronpk on the speaker queue
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tantek ack aaronpk
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Zakim aaronpk, you wanted to bring up comment services via webmention
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cwebber2 bengo: I think there's enough of existing specs where we could boot something up and see if indiewebbers and (?) want to do it
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aaronpk http://webmention.herokuapp.com
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cwebber2 aaronpk: there are som eexisting examples with webmention, like ^
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cwebber2 ... if you set your webmention endpoint to that, it pulls in the comments to put them on the page
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cwebber2 ... kind of like disqus, it shows the comments there
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cwebber2 ... we have the mechanism to show the comment form and stuff
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cwebber2 ... the nice thing it lets the author choose where their comments are bieng collected
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cwebber2 ... as opposed to "use twitter and tweet on the hashtag and we'll pull it out"
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bengo http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/11/18/obama-threatens-to-veto-bill-strengthening-syrian-refugee-screening/
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cwebber2 tantek: are you able to show examples of people using this bengo?
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cwebber2 bengo: yes *posts above link*
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aaronpk all the comments on http://www.kevinmarks.com/ are pulled in via that herokuapp
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cwebber2 bengo: in that case if you sign in on the page it does an arbitrary auth thing
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cwebber2 tantek: ok any other input you want to the working group?
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cwebber2 bengo: I think I got it
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tantek q?
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rhiaro scribenick: rhiaro
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rhiaro TOPIC: Activipy demo
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wilkie rhiaro++
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Loqi rhiaro has 189 karma
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rhiaro *technical setup*
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rhiaro *postponed until magical arrival of vga cable*
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Loqi Tantekelik made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2015-12-01]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=87033&oldid=87031
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cwebber2 scribenick: cwebber2
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tantek any word from Rene?
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eprodrom q+
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Zakim sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 tantek: ok, then let's jump right into federation protocol, which is our next agenda item
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cwebber2 TOPIC: federation protocol
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tantek ack eprodrom
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 eprodrom: I'd like to talk for a couple minutes for what our plan is for tackling federation protocol
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cwebber2 eprodrom: esp when we have a lot to do as in terms of syntax and api
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cwebber2 q+
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Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 eprodrom: sorry to be blunt, but it's the optional item on our charter, but I think it's likely the last rather than the immediately last piece
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cwebber2 tantek: ok for 5 minutes to discuss this beforehand?
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cwebber2 aaronpk: ok
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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rhiaro *vga cable arrives*
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cwebber2 tantek: ok 5 minutes on agenda prioritization
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tantek ack cw
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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tantek rhiaro, can you scribe?
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aaronpk q+
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Zakim sees aaronpk on the speaker queue
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rhiaro scribenick: rhiaro
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rhiaro Federation and social api things are not too different. I tmight end up not being in terms of micropub depending on what comes out of aaron's brainstorming. If it turns out we can do those things in one fell swoop, it would be kind of nice and nice to not force ourselces to not work on them if is actually most efficient for us to address them together
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees aaronpk on the speaker queue
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eprodrom q?
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Zakim sees aaronpk on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 scribenick: cwebber2
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tantek ack aaronpk
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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eprodrom q+
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Zakim sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 aaronpk: my take on it is why a social api is useful it's not too useful without federation
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rhiaro s/Federation and social api things are not too different. I tmight end up not being in terms of micropub depending on what comes out of aaron's brainstorming. If it turns out we can do those things in one fell swoop, it would be kind of nice and nice to not force ourselces to not work on them if is actually most efficient for us to address them together/cwebber2: Federation and social api things are not too different. I tmight end up not being in terms of
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rhiaro micropub depending on what comes out of aaron's brainstorming. If it turns out we can do those things in one fell swoop, it would be kind of nice and nice to not force ourselces to not work on them if is actually most efficient for us to address them together
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cwebber2 aaronpk: I agree there's value in it, but I think it's not a very good goal to stop there
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cwebber2 aaronpk: for me a lot of the goal of this group is to do federation
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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tantek ack eprodrom
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 aaronpk: and I don't want a repeat of oauth where nothing interops because there was no attempt to do it
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ben_thatmustbeme finally catching up on all the logs, i had an app that did server to server micropub for syndication to twitter, the negotiation of access keys was the most annoying part really, but once that was done, it worked fine
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cwebber2 eprodrom: so I think that by far the great majority of social programming is done as client/server apis, there are very few very small client/server apis comparativley
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 eprodrom: while most of us come from that federated social web world, while that might feel like the most important goal, I feel like the federation thing is the treat for us is all cool and fun, but I think giving the dessert first is a bad idea
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cwebber2 eprodrom: we do things like we tangle up the social api and federation
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sandro q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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sandro q+
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Zakim sees sandro on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 eprodrom: but I think attacking federation at this point is not the best use of our resources
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cwebber2 eprodrom: I'm happy to go at it but it feels like a big stretch
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tantek ack sandro
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 eprodrom: and I'd like to talk about what process we have to do it
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cwebber2 sandro: who's the market for the API without federation?
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cwebber2 eprodrom: so who would use it? take for example a new social network, which those launch all the time
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cwebber2 eprodrom: secret, instagram, periscope, etc
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aaronpk q+
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Zakim sees aaronpk on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 eprodrom: having a standard api that's close to hand might be what's used
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cwebber2 eprodrom: that might be a market is what they're doing
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cwebber2 sandro: and the benefit is it's less work to adopt their own
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cwebber2 sandro: ?
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cwebber2 q+
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Zakim sees aaronpk, cwebber on the speaker queue
bengo joined the channel
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cwebber2 sandro: I guess you're suggesting it's not cost effective to switch to the standard
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees aaronpk, cwebber on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 sandro: and the new folks don't know they want it
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cwebber2 eprodrom: yes, and I think it's easier to do incremental adoption
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wseltzer waves to kevinmarks, tsyesika , though I'm seated beside the video camera
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bengo q+
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Zakim sees aaronpk, cwebber, bengo on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 sandro: in the needs document, federation is 1, 2, and 5
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees aaronpk, cwebber, bengo on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 eprodrom: yeah, I think also managing profile stuff
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tantek ack aaronpk
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Zakim sees cwebber, bengo on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 aaronpk: follow-up question evan, the value is to design the api
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cwebber2 eprodrom: it's not me saying this, it's the charter
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cwebber2 aaronpk: my follow up question is you also see as part of that the value is someone's building an amazing iphone app that does video editing in a new way
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cwebber2 aaronpk: is the value that they can already do a web api they can point to?
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Loqi Tantekelik made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2015-12-01]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=87035&oldid=87033
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cwebber2 aaronpk: and someone wants to build something but not use the mobile app... ?
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cwebber2 aaronpk: there does seem some value in having federation standardized
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kevinmarks present+
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cwebber2 aaronpk: you're able to swap out what servers you're using
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tantek kevinmarks are you on talky?
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees cwebber, bengo on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 eprodrom: that's exactly it, you can use off the shelf libraries and etc
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kevinmarks I am now
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cwebber2 eprodrom: both on client and server side
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kevinmarks muted and video off
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cwebber2 eprodrom: I think there's a number of ways you could do something that doesn't have federation at its core
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cwebber2 eprodrom: for companies, individuals, everyone
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kevinmarks as the train is in noisy level crossing mode
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cwebber2 eprodrom: I think ultimately form a procedure standpoint, we have 3 deliverables, are not at CR for any of them, we have one that's optional, and we have worries about what to do about all of them is useful
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees cwebber, bengo on the speaker queue
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tantek ack cwebber2
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Zakim sees cwebber, bengo on the speaker queue
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tantek ack cwebber
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Zakim sees bengo on the speaker queue
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sandro q+
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Zakim sees bengo, sandro on the speaker queue
bengo joined the channel
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cwebber2 eprodrom: I'd like to hear we start federation protocol because XYZ not be cause we think it's cool
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rhiaro scribenick: rhiaro
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kevinmarks if we want to do a micropub+webmention+webaction demo later, I have all the bits for that set up
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tantek kevinmarks - if you want to do that, could you add to https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-12-01#Proposed_technical_items ?
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rhiaro cwebber2: I think a couple of things. 1) most of the companies that ar eputting out things like this probably don't want to use an off the shelf mobile app anyway, because they want to control their brand in some way. Although it is true that when media goblin implemented the pump api we were able to use existing clients and it just worked
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tantek q/
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees bengo, sandro on the speaker queue
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rhiaro ... that is pretty cool, but one concern is that it would take a lot of work to try to decouple the client to server stuff in AP
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kevinmarks hi wseltzer see you in 40 mins or so
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rhiaro ... I also worry that in terms of motivation to stay active in this group, it's going to be hard to stay motivated if federation is not on the horizon
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rhiaro ... My interest drops dramatically. That's the whole reason I'm int he group.
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees bengo, sandro on the speaker queue
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tantek ack bengo
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Zakim sees sandro on the speaker queue
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rhiaro ... If federation looks like it's not a likely target it's going to reduce the amount I'm enthused to stay involved. I want to keep it on the horizon. It's a high priority / life goal for m to advance that
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cwebber2 scribenick: cwebber2
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cwebber2 bengo: aside from social api benefits of the next api benefits etc, I think it's useful for reusable readers/writers etc, but also because web components that real enterprise buyers will have motivation to use
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees sandro on the speaker queue
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eprodrom q+
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Zakim sees sandro, eprodrom on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 bengo: those same benefits could come from a standardized api, might not benefit from federation
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cwebber2 bengo: my other question is evan, are you just not eager to talk about it for 4 hours right now?
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cwebber2 eprodrom: I'm more concerned over months and years than the next several hours
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kevinmarks is not sure the talky is worth it in this noise; will fall back to reading scribed
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cwebber2 eprodrom: we are at 5 drafts that we're working on, and we're going to start a new process for federation protocol
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cwebber2 etc
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tantek ack sandro
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Zakim sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 sandro: I think we concluded that the user stories covered both
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cwebber2 eprodrom: I think we said it's topology agnostic
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cwebber2 sandro: right, so that means we can just say applies across servers
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cwebber2 eprodrom: that sounds like a good thing to do
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cwebber2 tantek: so that's basically a requirement for a user story
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 eprodrom: so federation is server to server level, so I assume it has more to do with server protocol than about user interaction
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cwebber2 eprodrom: so we already have what we need?
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cwebber2 tantek: as part of our charter, webmention was part of our protocol, same as we accepted as2 as a draft, so proceeding a similar track as as2
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cwebber2 tantek: there's no sense of exclusivity for sure
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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tantek ack eprodrom
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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sandro q+
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Zakim sees sandro on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 tantek: but I understand there's a concern about the amount of time on it
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cwebber2 eprodrom: so I'd just like to hear what our plan is from the next few months
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cwebber2 eprodrom: are we choosing webmention immediately?
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cwebber2 tantek: I didn't hear that,
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cwebber2 eprodrom: so we're going to look at alternative systems?
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cwebber2 eprodrom: I propose we talk about how we're going to do this
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cwebber2 eprodrom: I suggest you add that
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cwebber2 tantek: that sounds more process oriented than tech oriented
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tantek https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-12-01#Proposed_admin_items
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bengo It would be interesting to resolve finalizing reader/writer Social API stories above federation, which could just be standardizing processing rules for that API
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cwebber2 sandro: that's what we're talking about now?
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cwebber2 tantek: no this was 5 minutes to express concerns
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cwebber2 eprodrom: will add to proposed admin items
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cwebber2 tantek: based on concern over how much time, let me ask aaron how much time we need
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bengo e.g. decouple delivery/notification rules of ActivityPump from describing POST /outbox and expected semantics/errors
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cwebber2 tantek: how much time do you actually want?
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Loqi Aaronpk made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=87036&oldid=86942
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Loqi Eprodrom made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-12-01]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=87037&oldid=87035
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cwebber2 aaronpk: I have a couple issues I want feedback on
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees sandro on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 aaronpk: I also want to clarify process stuff about webmention spec
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cwebber2 tantek: how much total time do you want
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cwebber2 aaronpk: I imagine an hour is fine
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cwebber2 tantek: any objection to slotting an hour time?
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cwebber2 sandro: that's fine
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cwebber2 tantek: let's timebox yours to an hour. is that okay eprodrom ?
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cwebber2 eprodrom: sounds great
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jasnell btw, given that I have a 3.5 hour drive home, I'd like to try to get on the road home a bit early today, if at all possible, I'd like to see if we could handle the remaining AS2 issues a bit earlier in the agenda
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees sandro on the speaker queue
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tantek ack sand
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 sandro: let's do demo after break (vga cable had arrived)
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tantek TOPIC: discuss Webmention to take it to First Public Working Draft
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cwebber2 aaronpk: a lot of people read over webmention doc, lots of issues filed, lots of good discussion
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cwebber2 aaronpk: trying to work before this meeting
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cwebber2 aaronpk: before we do that, I wanted to clarify the place the spec lives etc
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kevinmarks when is break? I added a demo suggestion to the items
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cwebber2 aaronpk: after last call I made for issues only
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tantek kevinmarks, we'll take a break at 10:50
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Loqi I added a countdown for 12/2 10:50am (#5772)
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kevinmarks OK, I'll be there by then
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cwebber2 aaronpk: my proposal is to move from w3c issues to my personal account on github, so it follows same protocol as activitystreams (under jame's account) so there's no confusion over who's the admin of ther epo
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cwebber2 repo
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 aaronpk: I'll have to do the work of moving the actual spec contents to respec format, I'm planning on doing that on github because that's an easy way to manage source code, so that's then the source of the document using the normal workflow, and if I have trouble I can ask james
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kevinmarks if you want to schedule a few minutes for a webmention micropub demo
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cwebber2 sandro: so if you move the repo
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cwebber2 aaronpk: all the issues will stay
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cwebber2 aaronpk: I don't want to fragment the convo too much
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cwebber2 aaronpk: that also means the indiewebcamp wiki, which is where the spec is canonical right now, will have to figure out how to deal with that
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cwebber2 aaronpk: if we write that in the github html source, have to figure out how to move to the indieweb (?)
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cwebber2 aaronpk: I think that's outside the scope of this group though, I mostly wanted to make sure the described worklow makes sense
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cwebber2 aaronpk: since AS2 does that too
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cwebber2 aaronpk: happy to make chairs admin on the repo
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cwebber2 tantek: I'm not hearing objections to use same workflow as AS2
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 tantek: I think we can accept it if no concerns
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cwebber2 jasnell: no concerns, I think having it with full chair access helps
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cwebber2 jasnell: that's something you might want to consider, with full rights
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cwebber2 jasnell: having someone else there with same permission level helps balance that it's not just you
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cwebber2 jasnell: that's my recommendation
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cwebber2 tantek: that cover yer spec process issues/
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cwebber2 ?
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cwebber2 aaronpk: yes it does
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cwebber2 aaronpk: let's get onto the guts of it then
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aaronpk https://github.com/aaronpk/webmention/issues/5
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cwebber2 aaronpk: this has always been a vague par to fthe spec, verifying that source links back to the target
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cwebber2 aaronpk: in the land of html, it's easy to do that
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cwebber2 aaronpk: but if we're talking about other types of source docukments, need to see if it needs to be spelled out more explicitly
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cwebber2 aaronpk: that doc links to another doc
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 aaronpk: if that's clear by content type, then it doesn't need to be
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cwebber2 sandro: I think it's not well spelled out
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cwebber2 sandro: my instinct is there's motivation to spell it out but as I commented
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cwebber2 sandro: if there's a way to do webmentions, a blog system that does webmentions, to know if it's conformatnt to the spec, have to define what is a link that does webmention?
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cwebber2 sandro: if I have a piece of software with a webmention endpoint, then we should agree on what counts as passing verification
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cwebber2 aaronpk: right, first step of processing webmention is to see what's in it
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Loqi Kmarks2 made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-12-01]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=87038&oldid=87037
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Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-12-01]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=87039&oldid=87038
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cwebber2 sandro: first exmaple is relative URIs
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cwebber2 sandro: eg, "is this string in there, the url doesn't appear there, but it's absolutely specified"
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bengo q+
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Zakim sees bengo on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 aaronpk: ok so we don't need to discuss the actual contents right now, but worht specifying...?
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cwebber2 tantek: is it reasonable to say you raise issues as helpful...?
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cwebber2 sandro: you get my point it's not just about verificaiton, but aloso when do you send the webmention
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cwebber2 aaronpk: ok
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cwebber2 aaronpk: yeah
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cwebber2 aaronpk: 17 is a similar one
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees bengo on the speaker queue
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tantek ack bengo
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 bengo: webmention does seem useful as a way of doing an "FYI" standard
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cwebber2 bengo: I kind of agree that it's possible to recommend specifying algorithms
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cwebber2 bengo: webmention as FYI in a timely manner, that's separate from specifics
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kevinmarks is the verification part going to be normative?
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kevinmarks or suggested
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cwebber2 bengo: there seems like a way to separate FYI from each content type
tilgovi joined the channel
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cwebber2 sandro: for instance in json-ld to find out if there's links or not you have to do full expansion
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cwebber2 tantek: similar for html parsing algorithm you have to do media type parsing
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cwebber2 sandro: I don't know the right answer but conceptually here's webmention on this matrix, and here's webmention for each other possible mediat ype
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wseltzer s/mediat ype/media type/
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cwebber2 tantek: perhaps the general approach that sandro / bengo 's mentioning is apply webmention FYI, but if per media type processing to do, write an example for each media type
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eprodrom q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 tantek: then add after that and say, for other media types, handle their processing model for each term
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cwebber2 tantek: as bengo said for each media type it's worth processsing
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cwebber2 sandro: maybe spec says it can apply to each terms
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cwebber2 sandro: but conformance is weird maybe
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cwebber2 sandro: so it's a sender/receiver for different types
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kevinmarks what do we mean by 'each media type' - would we process a QR code?
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cwebber2 bengo: but even ?? ships
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cwebber2 bengo: if it's already should, it's specific about each type
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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aaronpk https://github.com/aaronpk/webmention/issues/18
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cwebber2 aaronpk: that brings me to something related, which is 18 from wilkie
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cwebber2 aaronpk: I think gist of this is that is there a way the spec can limit the amount of work receiver has to do
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cwebber2 wilkie: yep
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bengo https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sporny-http-proofs-01
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cwebber2 aaronpk: because anyone having to verify document, can link a document, which could even be a 1gb document...
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cwebber2 wilkie: I'm looking for some bullet points saying "this could happen, here's how to avoid some obvious/easy ways to get hut"
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cwebber2 sandro: for example, never bother to fetch more than a megabyte
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cwebber2 aaronpk: so this seems not part of the algorithm, but
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cwebber2 tantek: it's a MUST vs SHOULD
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cwebber2 sandro: alternatively you could say it's only defined for the first megabyte
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cwebber2 sandro: another technical solution is you could say include range
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cwebber2 someone: *trollish laughter*
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cwebber2 aaronpk: I'll try to find some way to avoid falling into a pit of processing
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cwebber2 tantek: maybe send two megabytes and see what happens
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cwebber2 sandro: many redirects is another thing
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cwebber2 wilkie: if anyone wants to give permission to have their webmention endpoint to be possibly broken
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 sandro: so another way to put it, do I have the legal authority to post whatever I want to an endpoint?
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cwebber2 tantek: for a lot of these things you can see if there's prior art in pingback or etc
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cwebber2 tantek: it's very mature
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cwebber2 sandro: it's also discarded
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cwebber2 tantek: unmaintained
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cwebber2 sandro: who should review webmention? particularly, what ietf groups might get upset, so we can approach in the appropriate way
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cwebber2 sandro: the kind of people who will say "this is crazy, you can't do this"
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ben_thatmustbeme present+
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ben_thatmustbeme totally confused myself on start time
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cwebber2 sandro: they look at pingback and say nobody should do this, we'd like them to have them say "oh this is (good?)"
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 aaronpk: (??) was left out of pingback
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cwebber2 sandro: jasnell you have some experience with the http working group right?
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cwebber2 sandro: if we could have them not hate it that'd be nice
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aaronpk s/??/what to display after you receive a pingback/
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wseltzer q+
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Zakim sees wseltzer on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 jasnell: we could float it, experience has been mixed
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tantek ack wseltzer
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 wseltzer: if it's something you want brought to ietf discussion that's the right place to raise an issue for people to review
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cwebber2 tantek: maybe consider that for draft advancement
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wseltzer s/ietf discussion/ietf apps-area discussion/
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cwebber2 jasnell: the apps working group might... hm.... might be a more appropriate venue. But I think it could rabbithole very quickly...
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cwebber2 jasnell: nneither is ideal, but of the two, apps might be it
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cwebber2 sandro: we could find liason types
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cwebber2 jasnell: I'm very familiar with both groups so I can do that....
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cwebber2 tantek: is there an appropriate maturity schedule needed to do that review?
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cwebber2 tantek: need is before CR? I'm sensing there's an opinoin that having review soner could be helpful?
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cwebber2 sandro: related thing is, how this is framed/scoped as... is it for everything on the web?
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cwebber2 sandro: it's grown out of the social use cases, but you could mention things that grew out of social or not social
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Zakim sees wseltzer on the speaker queue
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wseltzer q+
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cwebber2 sandro: do we want to say we don't care about some of those others? i don't know the righ answer
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cwebber2 sandro: it's simple/elegant enough it might be able to, but we might see it hits other issues....
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cwebber2 jasnell: that's a common problem for apps group, scope bloat
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cwebber2 tantek: sounds like you're asking for a scope section
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cwebber2 sandro: I'm... not sure scope section will help.
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aaronpk q?
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Zakim sees wseltzer on the speaker queue
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aaronpk ack wseltzer
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 sandro: quesiton back here is does anyone have interest in selling it more broadly? or are we too concerned about feedback?
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wseltzer q+
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Zakim sees wseltzer on the speaker queue
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wseltzer q+ to comment on security review
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Zakim sees wseltzer on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 aaronpk: within the realm of social web stuff, I don't know if it's appropriate for other uses stuff
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cwebber2 sandro: one relatively harmless way to do it might be to have a w3c staff technical ...?
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cwebber2 sandro: any group can say we'd love w3c staff to look at it but
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cwebber2 sandro: could be kinda interesting
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cwebber2 tantek: best before or after first working draft?
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cwebber2 sandro: probalby after
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aaronpk q?
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Zakim sees wseltzer on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 sandro: I don't think there's much risk
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tantek ack wseltzer
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Zakim wseltzer, you wanted to comment on security review
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 wseltzer: another productive avenue of review could be in security, and how will this actually worked when deployed at scale across a variety of malicious mentioners and mentioneees
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bengo q+
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Zakim sees bengo on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 wseltzer: what could one feed to someone else's verifier to have it blow up etc?
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cwebber2 wseltzer: we have ?? that w3c can invite at any time to review
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cwebber2 bengo: just thought, should it respec the robots.txt for ...?
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wseltzer s/??/Privacy IG and Security IG/
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wseltzer s/w3c/WG/
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cwebber2 aaronpk: whether to respect robots.txt ...
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bengo q-
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 sandro: robots.txt is about crawling
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aaronpk https://github.com/aaronpk/webmention/issues/9
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kevinmarks No-one is on reception, can someone let me in?
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cwebber2 aaronpk: this one is issue #9
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wseltzer imagines the "feed a prohibited URL to get the mention-collector blocked by authorities"
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kevinmarks Never mind
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cwebber2 aaronpk: issue #9 is about talking about parmeter name, source, target, and fact that they aren't actually URIs
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cwebber2 aaronpk: I don't... things seem to be working just fine as strings
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cwebber2 aaronpk: is there some way to get around this the way the json-ld workaround to wokr
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cwebber2 bengo: I got the author to agree later to language they would do
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tantek back
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cwebber2 melvin would resolve "we can convert this to semantics"
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cwebber2 sandro: we should pick a namespace
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cwebber2 bengo: not actually the protocol that needs to change
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bengo https://github.com/aaronpk/webmention/issues/9#issuecomment-159961360
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cwebber2 aaronpk: if not pingback what's the proper name
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cwebber2 tantek: namespace for what?
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cwebber2 aaronpk: term, source, targget
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aaronpk s/term,/for the terms/
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cwebber2 sandro: they're link relations from webmention...
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cwebber2 aaronpk: so string source is not a fully qualified uri
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cwebber2 rhiaro: same as AS2, default namespace
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cwebber2 sandro: I don't think it really matters, but it doesn't hurt to give a default namespace
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cwebber2 tantek: I recommend you follow up with jasnell
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rhiaro w3.org/ns/...
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ben_thatmustbeme presumably we don't actually need to send that namespace correct?
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cwebber2 bengo: needs a version
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ben_thatmustbeme or rather the context?
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cwebber2 tantek: now you're borderline trolling
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rhiaro ben_thatmustbeme: right
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sandro right, ben_thatmustbeme
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rhiaro just for receivers if they want to add it upon receipt
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tantek s/version/version ;)
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aaronpk https://github.com/aaronpk/webmention/issues/13
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elf-pavlik webmention seems to represent a link, how about using terms from as:Link ?
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cwebber2 aaronpk: let's talk about issue 13
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tantek s/trolling/trolling ;)
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jasnell fwiw, I've actually been playing around with an experimental draft for processing form data into json-ld
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cwebber2 aaronpk: right now every implementation afaik assumes only one webmention endpoint
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cwebber2 aaronpk: and only pings that one
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kevinmarks_ mine doesn't
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cwebber2 aaronpk: maybe correct anser is use first one you bump into
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cwebber2 tantek: but there's implementation agreement?
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cwebber2 kevinmarks: mine doesn't do that, it pings all
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cwebber2 kevinmarks: did it in response to tantek's comment
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cwebber2 aaronpk: but when you discover a webmention endpoint do you discover one
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cwebber2 kevinmarks: no it does as many as it can
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cwebber2 kevinmarks: an experiment, but useful use case is when transitioning from one endpoint to another
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cwebber2 tantek: do you feel strongly about that enuf to make that a should
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cwebber2 kevinmarks: you may want to ping more than one
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ben_thatmustbeme are we bothering with queue?
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cwebber2 ... the one I gbuilt stores entirely in ???
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cwebber2 aaronpk: my inclination is if you see value in multiple webmention pings, you can't acutlaly guarantee sending it to all of them, so you're better off sending to one
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bengo q+
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Zakim sees bengo on the speaker queue
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ben_thatmustbeme nevermind, aaronpk basically said what i was going to
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees bengo on the speaker queue
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bengo q-
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 aaronpk: the most reliable way is to have single webmention endpoint
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cwebber2 aaronpk: that's the only way to guarantee they all get the webmention
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cwebber2 kevinmarks: the other thing is to potentially handle webmentions for ones who haven't installed it yet
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cwebber2 kevinmarks: it's slightly off, but you could imagine a webmention sender automatically pings webmention services in case they have it there
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cwebber2 aaronpk: kind of like pinging archive.org(?)
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cwebber2 kevinmarks: potential utility in queueing, but not sure it's core enough to try to get everyone else to do it too
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 aaronpk: another risk that having senders send multiples, you might potentially send thousands
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cwebber2 aaronpk: kind of tempted to limit to just one first
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cwebber2 aaronpk: good things to document
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cwebber2 kevinmarks: if we do adopt the well-known approach to finding it, we do have the posssibility of doing ...(?)
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cwebber2 kevinmarks: we may want to discuss about related things
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cwebber2 tantek: there's order already for discovery
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cwebber2 tantek: sounds like you're close to proposed resolution
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cwebber2 aaronpk: I think so
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cwebber2 aaronpk: so, you MUST ping first on you find, then document reasons for not require multiple
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cwebber2 tantek: implementation guidance?
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cwebber2 aaronpk: yes
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cwebber2 sandro: I hadn't thought of well-known, I'd like to have it at end, but it woudl be nice to never have to do discovery again
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cwebber2 tantek: the stableness of well known is well known
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cwebber2 tantek: google kept breaking it
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cwebber2 sandro: they weren't updating their well known?
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cwebber2 tantek: correct
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cwebber2 tantek: so if the large corporation handling large centralized place, yeah they oculdn't
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cwebber2 tantek: if google can't get it right, then
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cwebber2 kevinmarks: not everyone there knew about well known
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cwebber2 tantek: that's a data point
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aaronpk q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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aaronpk https://github.com/aaronpk/webmention/issues/4
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cwebber2 aaronpk: so this is an interesitng one, it basically shows whether webmention payload should be allowed to have other content types
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cwebber2 it's basically url source and target
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cwebber2 aaronpk: it kind of looks like a minimal activity, where there's an id and an object
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cwebber2 aaronpk: what if you want to send activity as a paylod
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cwebber2 aaronpk: now it looks like federation protocol sending activities around
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cwebber2 aaronpk: interesting idea, quickly growing out of scope
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cwebber2 aaronpk: quickly growing into its own protocol with its own security concerns and etc
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cwebber2 aaronpk: it's potentially an even biger rabbithole
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cwebber2 bigger
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cwebber2 kevinmarks: that makes sense
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cwebber2 aaronpk: easy one
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aaronpk https://github.com/aaronpk/webmention/issues/1
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cwebber2 aaronpk: last one: issue #1 about property parameter
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cwebber2 aaronpk: don't bother reading whole thread... several months ago ?? gave source and target
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cwebber2 aaronpk: basically switched to rel, where to find the link
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cwebber2 aaronpk: if in-reply-to on page, what do you parse to get key in-reply-to(??)
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cwebber2 aaronpk: if my webmention payload contains rel="in-reply-to" you don't need to look at all links on pag
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cwebber2 ee
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cwebber2 page
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cwebber2 augh
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cwebber2 aaronpk: thing that got me to really understand what this is about is to include rel parameter page may mean multiple things
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cwebber2 aaronpk: one is in-reply-to and one is ??-of
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cwebber2 aaronpk: one means reply one means like
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kevinmarks_ like-of
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cwebber2 aaronpk: if you want to send two webmentions to that you could
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cwebber2 aaronpk: if you tell me where to look in the page I can look and then stop
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cwebber2 sandro: in practice how do you do that
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cwebber2 aaronpk: stop as in most peoples' code when they look beyond "what does this mean" they have "is it a bla, or a blah"
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kevinmarks_ I implemented this in http://mention-tech.appspot.com
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cwebber2 rhiaro: if it's json you can just look
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kevinmarks_ and it was very confusing
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cwebber2 aaronpk: right in microformats world you can look
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cwebber2 aaronpk: look for one key you're looking at
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azaroth q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 kevinmarks: I implemented this and to see what it's like
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cwebber2 rhiaro: the idea is you send whatever you want
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ben_thatmustbeme q+ to discuss my concerns with it
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Zakim sees ben_thatmustbeme on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 rhiaro: you send what's in the document. if they receive what you understand then it's up the target anyway
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cwebber2 rhiaro: if it's rdfa you send rdfa prop, of microformats you send a microformats propoperty
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees ben_thatmustbeme on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 azaroth: seems like slipper slope towards oauth
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cwebber2 aaronpk: couldn't you use a fragment on url as subject?
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cwebber2 sandro: this seems like the perfect kind of at risk thing
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cwebber2 rhiaro: that was my lsat point
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cwebber2 aaronpk: I think if it goes in the spec it may be a suggestion
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cwebber2 aaronpk: they MAY prioritize that
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cwebber2 aaronpk: with assumption most implementations won't include
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cwebber2 sandro: with assumption we might take it out of the spec later
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees ben_thatmustbeme on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 aaronpk: that seems like a good path forward
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tantek ack ben_thatmustbeme
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Zakim ben_thatmustbeme, you wanted to discuss my concerns with it
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 ben_thatmustbeme: ok, so my concerns are that 1) especially with like-of it becomes possibly not even on that page
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bengo verification is already not required
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cwebber2 ben_thatmustbeme: so if they see like coming in and that's all they care about well
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cwebber2 ben_thatmustbeme: then it becomes why not send comments as well
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cwebber2 ben_thatmustbeme: it sends info about it instead of the actual stuff
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 tantek: do you have a counter-proposal?
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cwebber2 ben_thatmustbeme: I queued up before marking at risk
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cwebber2 ben_thatmustbeme: someone could send you the wrong type
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cwebber2 rhiaro: you always run the risk without validation
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bengo It all already says 'you cant trust the ping', you SHOULD verify it
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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kevinmarks_ like me - I record it without valdiating it
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cwebber2 rhiaro: someone can still process incoming webmention as a REPLY
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cwebber2 rhiaro: they could still violate the spec
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cwebber2 aaronpk: seems like good reasons on both sides
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tantek q+ to ask would this make more sense as a separate extension proposal, like Vouch?
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Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 aaronpk: looking for feedback from implementers might be right way forward
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tantek q-
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 aaronpk: as an extension what does it look like? a type hinting extension?
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wilkie I feel like in the context of the Social API that you would want to parse the entire page anyway. to pull out ALL comments and ALL likes that refer to you (with the same url) and represent them.
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cwebber2 kevinmarks: yes and property is not a good description (??)
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cwebber2 kevinmarks: for me that makes more of an extension
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cwebber2 cwebber2: wilkie: you mean federation api right? :)
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tantek q+ to note we have at least one Webmention extension already, Vouch, with multiple interoperable implementations, seems like other additions should also start documented as extensions.
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Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 rhiaro: one suggestion in that thread is for those who don't care about semantic content you just send it ...?
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cwebber2 rhiaro: I think it would be useful to get more feedback from different perspectives
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azaroth q+ re extensions and #9
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Zakim sees tantek, azaroth on the speaker queue
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ben_thatmustbeme other issue with one proposed advantage of it is that it allows you to dismiss types you don't support, but thats just as premature as accepting likes without verifying them
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cwebber2 tantek: I'm queed to talk about htat which is that we have more extensions already
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/Vouch
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bengo wilkie agree
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cwebber2 tantek: that's Vouch
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wilkie cwebber2: webmention would be the federation on top of the social syntax for servers that aren't known/trusted/discovered
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cwebber2 tantek: it already has multiple implementions
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cwebber2 tantek: for those who see value in it, they have the burden of writing it up first
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sandro q+ to ask who runs the registry for webmention extension field names
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Zakim sees tantek, azaroth, sandro on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 tantek: rather than burdening you with trying to interpret their wishes
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cwebber2 tantek: if that's something the community wants to do in core well....
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cwebber2 tantek: I want to resist the default tendency to mark everything at risk, I was criticized for that, and I think it was a legit criticisms
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cwebber2 tantek: also a good way to get person proposing to think more formally
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azaroth +1 to tantek
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cwebber2 tantek: rather than getting you to distribute the work
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cwebber2 rhiaro: it is written up, where does it go then
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rhiaro It is already written up at csarven.ca/webmention
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cwebber2 tantek: in a separate spec
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cwebber2 rhiaro: so published where?
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sandro q?
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Zakim sees tantek, azaroth, sandro on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 tantek: wherever person wants
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cwebber2 rhiaro: it's already up
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kevinmarks_ it's currently written up at http://csarven.ca/webmention
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cwebber2 tantek: give it a name, say its extension
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cwebber2 rhiaro: I just dropeped a link
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ben_thatmustbeme i wouldn't call that at all spec like. It generally explains it
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cwebber2 tantek: doesn't look like a spec,, make a separate spec
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cwebber2 tantek: not just a bunch of thoughts
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ben_thatmustbeme but what do you do with it if its not found? what do you do if it is given, also that page talks about making target optional
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cwebber2 tantek: I think jasnell_ is resistant to add stuff to as2 core, that's not a bad pracrtice
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cwebber2 tantek: call for review
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ben_thatmustbeme indeed, link to extensions in the spec +1
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Loqi kevinmarks, we'll take a break
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Loqi Countdown set by tantek on 12/2/15 at 9:52am
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azaroth q?
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Zakim sees tantek, azaroth, sandro on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 bengo: add a registyr?
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cwebber2 tantek: specs are registries by default
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees tantek, azaroth, sandro on the speaker queue
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tantek ack tsyesika
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Zakim sees tantek, azaroth, sandro on the speaker queue
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tantek ack tantek
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Zakim tantek, you wanted to note we have at least one Webmention extension already, Vouch, with multiple interoperable implementations, seems like other additions should also start
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Zakim ... documented as extensions.
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Zakim sees azaroth, sandro on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 sandro: if you're going to have extensions, what's the extension mechanism
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tantek ack sandro
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Zakim sandro, you wanted to ask who runs the registry for webmention extension field names
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Zakim sees azaroth on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 sandro: it might be the IWC wiki, because htat seems to be the answer. I don't like it, but that's how it is
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cwebber2 sandro: I don't understand why there's an extension mechanism in there
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cwebber2 tantek: ther'es no formal webmention, you can just do it
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cwebber2 sandro: but there's no way to detect who's implementing extensions
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bengo q+
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Zakim sees azaroth, bengo on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 sandro: so if two people come along and use vouch with conflicting terms, there's no way to do it
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bengo q-
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Zakim sees azaroth on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 azaroth: I believe that's issue 9 which we won't tlak about
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tantek ack azaroth
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Zakim azaroth, you wanted to discuss extensions and #9
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cwebber2 talk
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 sandro: converting to URIs is one way to solve this, having a registry is another
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cwebber2 bengo: one way to do it is what does this support
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cwebber2 sandro: we could add those to the link
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cwebber2 bengo: configuration endpoint
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bengo accounts.qa-ext.livefyre.com/.well-known/openid-configuration
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bengo https://accounts.qa-ext.livefyre.com/.well-known/openid-configuration
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cwebber2 tantek: we've had fewer than one extension per year, so I don't see any benefit for an abastract solution
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cwebber2 tantek: so far everyone knows about every extension
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cwebber2 azaroth: so if everyone that we know
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 tantek: if million people implement webmention I'll be impressed
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jasnell_ one possible approach is to have the discovery mechanism to allow a site to declare a prefix for a particular base URI mapping... for instance, "xyz-" = "http://xyz.example#", then a parameter named "xyz-foo" would expand to "http://xyz.example#foo"
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ben_thatmustbeme i think a registry of "extensions fields" and links to extension in IWC wiki would make a lot of sense
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cwebber2 aaronpk: effectively for now, the spec becomes registry of extensions, around CR we can revisit
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cwebber2 aaronpk: I saved that one for last because I knew it would be tricky
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cwebber2 aaronpk: talk about it on the next calll
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cwebber2 sandro: goal is for working draft?
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ben_thatmustbeme needs to switch computers, losing the conf room
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cwebber2 tantek: do we want to say we have a certain a mount of time?
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cwebber2 sandro: let's wait
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cwebber2 aaronpk: I can get it by... I'm not james so I can't probably do it during the rest of the day
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cwebber2 aaronpk: I'll try to have it done by next telecon
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cwebber2 aaronpk: I probably won't have it done by next telecon
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cwebber2 tantek: let's agenda to update and discuss at next telecon
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aaronpk ACTION: aaronpk publish new editor's draft of webmention before next telcon
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trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
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RRSAgent records action 1
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trackbot Created ACTION-81 - Publish new editor's draft of webmention before next telcon [on Aaron Parecki - due 2015-12-09].
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wseltzer ACTION: $login to do bar
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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tantek any word from rene?
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tantek reconvene at 11:05
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Loqi I added a countdown for 12/2 11:05am (#5773)
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eprodrom I sent Rene an email; let's see if it produces anything.
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tantek thanks eprodrom
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Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-12-01]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=87040&oldid=87039
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kevinmarks_ if I webmention people from the logs, what happens?
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Loqi reconvene
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Loqi Countdown set by tantek on 12/2/15 at 10:57am
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rhiaro scribenick: rhiaro
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rhiaro TOPIC: Activipy demo
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ben_thatmustbeme for demos could we turn talky to projector?
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tantek ActiviPy demo, showing a combination of ActivityStreams, Linked Data (through json-ld) and Microformats (through JF2) support - Chris Webber
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azaroth ben_thatmustbeme: is that better?
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ben_thatmustbeme thank you whoever that was :)
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rhiaro cwebber2: Activipy started off as a validator, then a generalised library for doing AS2 stuff
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ben_thatmustbeme yes
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azaroth :)
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ben_thatmustbeme azaroth++
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Loqi azaroth has 10 karma
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rhiaro ... But expands out into a linked data representation, but as of this morning alos handles microformats (jf2)
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rhiaro ... Readthedocs.org/activipy contains a full tutorial and documentation
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rhiaro ... But I'll show you
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rhiaro ... It has all the vocabularly loaded into it, including descriptions, making good use of our free software license
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rhiaro ... So self documenting
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rhiaro ... import library, call vocab.Person and it shows the description
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rhiaro ... Can set values of properties for AS2 classes
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rhiaro decides not to try to retype all of Chris's python commands into irc
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rhiaro ... Can get json-ld version, but doesn't do expansion until it needs to
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rhiaro ... Provides different ways of representing an activity
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rhiaro ... Can feed in JSON itself, or use a more pythonic constructor
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rhiaro ... In this one I'm creating a note, with a URI, setting all the properties
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rhiaro ... It's composed of several python objects
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rhiaro ... eg. has a person object
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rhiaro ... so can expand out
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rhiaro ... and can access individual properties
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rhiaro ... and can acess object to get python representation
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rhiaro ... all immutable, so change a value spits back a new version of the object
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rhiaro ... so very efficient
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rhiaro ... what's neat about this is... I can get types, and it gives you, but no json-ld expansion
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rhiaro ... But the moment I do types_expanded, it does json-ld expansion
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rhiaro ... Moving off the idea that theoretically it's just json until you need extensions
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rhiaro ... So it already knows all the vocabulary
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rhiaro ... Has all the objects, properties, short ids
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rhiaro ... So what can you do with an environment?
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rhiaro ... You want to do something with the stuff, and you might want to expand the vocabulary
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rhiaro ... So what i did this morning is an environment for jf2
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rhiaro *live demo woes*
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rhiaro ... the environment knows about all the classes available to it
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rhiaro ... So I create a very specific jf2 object and set properties
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rhiaro ... Can switch between python object and json
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rhiaro ... and I can get a linked data representation of the jf2
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rhiaro ... All I did was declaritively describe the vocabulary
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rhiaro ... use the context taht ben wrote up
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rhiaro ... and now it's composable with AS2
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kevinmarks_ this is very neat
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azaroth but wait ...
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rhiaro ... You can mix and match with AS2 now, and other linked data
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rhiaro ... But that's not all!
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ben_thatmustbeme "But Wait, Theres more"
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ben_thatmustbeme azaroth beat me to it
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rhiaro ... One of the motivators was writing a validator that could extend to new vocabularies
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rhiaro ... Python object inheritance model didn't work in the first place, because AS2 can have multiple types for objects
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rhiaro ... We want to be able to do method dispatch. If you're assuming a python or java style inheritance model, methods get attached
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rhiaro ... But we still might want eg. all collections to have certain methods available to them
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rhiaro ... So Activipy includes a method dispatch system based on environments
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rhiaro ... Uses the dumbest key value store possible. Serializes to key-value stor saved on disk. dbm
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rhiaro learnt about dbm from Activipy docs :)
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rhiaro ... Say you're doing an application that's streaming a bunch of objects and you know how you want to save them, maybe do functions on them, and save to database
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rhiaro ... Now I've got a note that's an AS object, and we want to serialize it to our database
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rhiaro ... this note has its own environment
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rhiaro ... the environment is the dbm environment
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rhiaro ... can now do method dispatch on it, with save
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rhiaro ... So now I've saved it to the database
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rhiaro ... now I can pull it out by id, which is URL of the note
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rhiaro ... You can have different applications that share vocabluary, and hook up different methods depending on the application
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rhiaro ... Really flexible, can fit changing vocab of application
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rhiaro ... So you can do it with AS2 based stuff, embed jf2 inside the same thing, alongside as2, and expand to linked data
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rhiaro ... Pretty cool!
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rhiaro ... The jf2 support was literally checked in this morning
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rhiaro ... All I had to do was add that vocabulary
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rhiaro ... Looks almost like the other one
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rhiaro ... You can compose it together with AS2
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rhiaro ... The worlds are brought together
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rhiaro *applause*
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rhiaro ... It's on pypy
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rhiaro ... can install and use today
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rhiaro ... 0.2 release - jf2 will be in next release
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rhiaro ... It can pull in jf2 json that's json-ld encoded
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rhiaro ... assuming that ben roberts' thing actually matches jf2 document, which isn't verified, it'll do the same thing
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rhiaro ... Basically just json-ld with an implied context
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rhiaro ... This is the implied context, that ben put together. Had to make one change
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rhiaro ... as2 context fix, then just worked
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rhiaro tantek: code knows about implied context?
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rhiaro cwebber2: that's right
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rhiaro ... in environment
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rhiaro ... context uri is ben's uri, implied context being jf2 context uri
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bengo https://github.com/w3c-social/activipy/blob/master/activipy/jf2-context.jsonld
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rhiaro ... Previously had it hard coded to be AS2, two line change to give it any implied context
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rhiaro ... So you can pass it
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rhiaro ... 2 commits this morning
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rhiaro sandro: the architecturally correct thing to do is media types have implied context
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rhiaro ... operating system maps file extensions to media types
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rhiaro ... so it should be able to read file extensions to get implied context
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rhiaro tantek: if it has an explicit context it just works?
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rhiaro cwebber2: right
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rhiaro ... either you have something set up so it goes to fetch it, or it alraedy knows about it
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rhiaro ... I have it set up so it already has it, so never has to fetch from the web
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rhiaro ... if you you pass it a url you already know about, it can use that
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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rhiaro tantek: Any questions for chris?
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tantek 10 min. demo of existing webmention+micropub federation using woodwind, known and other indie sites. Also webaction example Kevin Marks
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rhiaro TOPIC: kevin demos webmention and micropub federation
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rhiaro kevinmarks: This is woodwind, which is kylewm's feed reader
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rhiaro ... I've subscribed to a bunch of sites and it gives me their posts
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rhiaro ... If I click on a post, this little thing pops up which is a box, with three buttons - post, repost, like
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rhiaro tantek: this is in your reader?
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rhiaro kevinmarks: this is kyle's website, not mine
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rhiaro ... If I put in a response, it sends a micropub post to my website
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rhiaro ... Post appears on my site
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rhiaro ... and sent a webmention to jeremy
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rhiaro ... my site should have sent a webmention in response to getting a micropub request
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rhiaro ... (it didn't, sending one manually)
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rhiaro ... Back in reader, sending reply to kyle
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rhiaro *live demo woes strike again*
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rhiaro ... Shows published on site, webmention appears on kyle's site
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ben_thatmustbeme talky lost focus sooo bad
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ben_thatmustbeme azaroth a little to the left?
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rhiaro ... kyle's site shows reply thread/context
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rhiaro ... The other thing you can see in a few places
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azaroth that left?
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azaroth or the other left? :)
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rhiaro ... If I look in safari at this page, you can see reply, retweet, favorite on jeremy's site (adactio.com)
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tantek s/webintent/webaction
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ben_thatmustbeme thanks for trying, but still blurry as hell
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rhiaro ... actually wrapped with web intent
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ben_thatmustbeme was hoping it would help
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rhiaro ... so in chrome, with extension(?) his buttons are replaced with my buttons
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tantek s/web intent/web action
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tantek kevinmarks misspoke
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ben_thatmustbeme thinkgs its just color of the page
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rhiaro ... You can do it without a plugin
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rhiaro ... But then the like goes to my site, instead of twitter
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rhiaro ... directly from jeremy's site
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ben_thatmustbeme i can see now
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ben_thatmustbeme thanks
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azaroth no problem :)
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wilkie http://known.kevinmarks.com
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rhiaro ... THe point of this demo which is not working as well as I would like, is to show that we have multiple implementations of webmention receiving and micropub
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rhiaro ... so it's possible to embed the posting ui on one site and have it post to another
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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rhiaro ... and have it federate back again
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rhiaro tantek: which is the part that's showing federation? so thats' on topic
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rhiaro kevinmarks: Depends on the definition of federation. My sense is that I'm reading something on one site, responding to it on another site, and having that information show up on the first site
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rhiaro ... I'mr eading in one place, responding inline, which pings mine ,which pings his, so reply shows up there
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rhiaro ... Mine doesn't show context, but there's a link back to what I'm replying to
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bengo https://kylewm.com/2015/12/he-s-been-talking-about-service-workers-a-bit-is
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rhiaro ... Webmention based commenting
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rhiaro ... Different peopl ehave different versions of how much context they display
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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rhiaro wilkie: how does it work? it gets a webmention...
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rhiaro kevinmarks: it gets a webmention. What it says here is... this is marked up with microformats in-reply-to classes
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rhiaro bengo: then kyle stores a copy of it
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rhiaro kevinmarks: *parses page into mf2 json*
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rhiaro ... So you can see what's going on, shows all the properties
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rhiaro ... So on his side he is parsing it, then storing the reply in a way that makes sense for him, to display
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rhiaro ... You can send a webmention for a larger entity and you want to do more thinking about how you're going to extract the content, but for short notes it works quite well
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rhiaro wilkie: wondered if there's anything written explaining that
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rhiaro kevinmarks: there's discussion on the indieweb wiki on how to make sense of replies
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rhiaro ... The general assumption is the easy thing is you can take the name
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rhiaro ... The common type of a content type post is a h-entry, which will ahve a name
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rhiaro rhiaro: how to parse/mark up is deliberatley not in the webmention spec
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ben_thatmustbeme jf2 version http://stream.thatmustbe.us/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fkylewm.com%2F2015%2F12%2Fhe-s-been-talking-about-service-workers-a-bit-is&op=mf2-jf2
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ben_thatmustbeme :)
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rhiaro didnt' quite catch what wilkie said
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cwebber2 ben_thatmustbeme: btw where should I submit a patch to your jf2 context?
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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rhiaro bengo: rdfa or microformats explain how to parse/publish as options
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cwebber2 it totally worked minus one short thing
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rhiaro kevinmarks: so another one, here's my reply saying yes I'm coming to this event, which has an rsvp yes on it
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bengo (or microdata)
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ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2, in the next couple days i will be moving in to a more specific repo for the spec, but for now, https://github.com/dissolve/socialstream/issues
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wilkie I suggested what I thought the process was: you get a webmention and pull down the source page and look for links to you (in-reply-to, like-of) and work backward to determine the context
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wilkie I guess you can go backward until you find something you already know... to determine the conversation thread etc
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rhiaro ... So aaron parses my reply and can show that I'm attending
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tantek kevinmarks: shows federated RSVPs to an event
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ben_thatmustbeme or more specifically https://github.com/dissolve/socialstream/blob/master/jf2.jsonld
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rhiaro ... The webmention part is - these two are linked in some way, try to make sense of them
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rhiaro ... the like, repost, etc we've built separately
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rhiaro ... Other rsvps on here are coming in from facebook via bridgy
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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rhiaro ... bridgy translates silo mentions into webmentions and sends you those
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rhiaro tantek: wrap up, thanks
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ben_thatmustbeme kevinmarks++
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Loqi kevinmarks has 185 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2++ for last demo
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Loqi cwebber2 has 60 karma
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jasnell_ https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/266
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tantek rhiaro++ for scribing
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eprodrom scribenick: eprodrom
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Loqi rhiaro has 190 karma
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tantek cwebber2++ for scribing
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Loqi cwebber2 has 61 karma
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eprodrom jasnell_: I'm happy to summarize rene's issues
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tantek AS2 Extension questions/issues from Rene
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eprodrom jasnell_: He's opened a number of issues with new terms to add to the vocabulary
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eprodrom jasnell_: based on the discussion on those proposals, Rene asked what is the principle between vocabulary and extensions
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eprodrom jasnell_: Rene wants to have a documentation of those guidelines
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eprodrom jasnell_: Conversation has been between Rene and myself
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eprodrom jasnell_: I have said we should be conservative in expanding the vocabulary
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eprodrom jasnell_: Default position is to reduce, not add new classes
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tantek +1 on pull things out and simplify rather than add things new
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eprodrom jasnell_: Hopefully when Rene reads the minutes he can correct if necessary
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eprodrom q+
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Zakim sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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tantek ack eprodrom
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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azaroth q+
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Zakim sees azaroth on the speaker queue
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azaroth q-
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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azaroth (that :) )
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jasnell_ eprodrom: can we create a wiki page to document the current status ?
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sandro q+
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Zakim sees sandro on the speaker queue
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eprodrom eprodrom: can we document scope for vocabulary?
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cwebber2 :)
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bengo q+
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Zakim sees sandro, bengo on the speaker queue
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eprodrom tantek: This would be appropriate to discuss in the draft
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eprodrom jasnell_: are we in agreement on that position?
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees sandro, bengo on the speaker queue
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tantek ack sandro
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Zakim sees bengo on the speaker queue
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eprodrom bengo: It sounds like our principle is don't add anything that doesn't meet that bar
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eprodrom bengo: but what is that bar?
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eprodrom jasnell_: I'd like to leave that open
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eprodrom sandro: Do we have a registry for extensions?
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tantek related: https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/261
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eprodrom sandro: if good extensions come up, we may add them to the next versions
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eprodrom jasnell_: I have a list of items removed from the spec already, which could go to an extension
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eprodrom jasnell_: What is the process for registering extensions
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tantek q+ re: dropped terms, changes from AS1?
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Zakim sees bengo, tantek on the speaker queue
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eprodrom jasnell_: If it is a workgroup-managed thing, can we discuss the process?
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eprodrom q+
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Zakim sees bengo, tantek, eprodrom on the speaker queue
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eprodrom sandro: We can keep a list of extensions personally, or by the group
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eprodrom jasnell_: I have a list of other extensions
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eprodrom sandro: Do you own activitystrea.ms domain?
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eprodrom jasnell_: No, Chris Messina has it
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tantek ack bengo
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Zakim sees tantek, eprodrom on the speaker queue
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eprodrom jasnell_: but he will let us directly update it
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eprodrom bengo: A reasonable bar is approved user stories linked from the home page of the wiki
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bengo https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories#Approved_user_stories
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eprodrom bengo: if any of those can't be described using the vocabulary, then that makes sense for an addition
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees tantek, eprodrom on the speaker queue
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sandro q+ to suggest the bar for inclusion is 2+ independent implementations
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Zakim sees tantek, eprodrom, sandro on the speaker queue
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eprodrom jasnell_: in the list of proposals we have for adding vocabulary, we have 3 that might be worth discussing
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eprodrom jasnell_: Evan suggested a Blog type
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tantek ack tantek
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Zakim tantek, you wanted to discuss dropped terms, changes from AS1?
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Zakim sees eprodrom, sandro on the speaker queue
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azaroth q+ to respond to sandro to suggest 2+ _promises of_ implementations at this stage
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Zakim sees eprodrom, sandro, azaroth on the speaker queue
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eprodrom tantek: There's a section in the vocabulary about AS1 properties. Do you have any plans to include a section of changes, including dropped classes or properties?
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eprodrom jasnell_: Currently that table is not in the editor's draft to simplify
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eprodrom jasnell_: Considering creating a separate document to show differences, how to deal with differences
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eprodrom jasnell_: Still debating whether I'll have the time to write it
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees eprodrom, sandro, azaroth on the speaker queue
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tantek ack eprodrom
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Zakim sees sandro, azaroth on the speaker queue
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rhiaro scribenick: rhiaro
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rhiaro eprodrom: I wanted to talk about what sandro mentioned, having an extensions area that we may bring into the as2 vocabulary
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rhiaro ... although it seems like a nice mechanism, wouldn't the namespacing effort make that not backwards compatible?
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rhiaro ... if I had a geo store item that got widespread, it would not be identicaly to a store that ended up in our core
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees sandro, azaroth on the speaker queue
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rhiaro sandro: I suggest we keep namespaces intact, which suggests that either we use their namespaces or we suggest people use a w3c namespace for their extensions
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rhiaro jasnell: as I understand it, we're not creating a extension namespace that people add terms to, but people add their extension with their own namespace
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rhiaro eprodrom: I don't see pipeline of get a popular extension and that moves on to be in core
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rhiaro ... That doesn't seem important to me, but don't want to extend that as a possibility if it is hard to do
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees sandro, azaroth on the speaker queue
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rhiaro sandro: say in our doc if you think this extension is going to be popular and might be in future version, use a namespace that is going to b epersistant
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eprodrom scribenick: eprodrom
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eprodrom jasnell_: we can have the registry have its own content document
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azaroth +1 to jasnell
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azaroth s/content/context/
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eprodrom jasnell_: if an extension becomes popular enough, the registry context can import it
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eprodrom jasnell_: There could be a curated list
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eprodrom jasnell_: It gives us an ability to promote popular extensions consistently
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees sandro, azaroth on the speaker queue
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eprodrom sandro: if that's true, it should be a curated list by the WG or a CG
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tantek ack sandro
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Zakim sandro, you wanted to suggest the bar for inclusion is 2+ independent implementations
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Zakim sees azaroth on the speaker queue
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eprodrom sandro: if there are 2 implementations of a particular term, it should be included
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tantek ack azaroth
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Zakim azaroth, you wanted to respond to sandro to suggest 2+ _promises of_ implementations at this stage
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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eprodrom sandro: or maybe a larger N
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eprodrom azaroth: If we have promises of implementations, then that makes more sense
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azaroth q-
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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eprodrom sandro: if you're not going to write it, then that doesn't give us a lot of security that it's worth doing
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eprodrom tantek: I'd say deployed, not written
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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eprodrom bengo: What about stuff that was implemented in AS1?
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eprodrom tantek: implementation documentation for AS1 is poor
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azaroth has inescapable call now, apologies
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eprodrom tantek: implementation links are poor, broken
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melvster would be interested to see a list of AS implementations
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eprodrom jasnell_: except for in-reply-to, all other extensions of AS1 are out of AS2
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kevinmarks_ q+ to distinguish publishing and parsing implementations
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Zakim sees kevinmarks_ on the speaker queue
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees kevinmarks_ on the speaker queue
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eprodrom jasnell_: most implementations of extensions of AS1 are not in AS2
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eprodrom jasnell_: The registry has an implied context, then implementation can use terms from the extensions
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eprodrom sandro: Doesn't that suggest changing the media type?
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eprodrom kevinmarks_: As part of your implementation test, you'd need publishers and parsers
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eprodrom sandro: I'd set the bar at 2 publishers and 2 consumers
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eprodrom jasnell_: That's the bar for adding. For terms already in the vocabulary, we are getting the minimal level of interop for most common cases.
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eprodrom jasnell_: Minimal stuff doesn't get pulled out if we're not going to use them
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eprodrom sandro: it'll get pulled out when we go to PR
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sandro q?
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Zakim sees kevinmarks_ on the speaker queue
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eprodrom jasnell_: Every term in there is optional
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tantek ack kevinmarks
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Zakim kevinmarks_, you wanted to distinguish publishing and parsing implementations
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eprodrom jasnell_: Implementers don't have to support them
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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eprodrom kevinmarks_: If this is a bar for adding new things, then we should use the bar for deleting old things
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eprodrom jasnell_: we've already pulled things out like that
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eprodrom jasnell_: if we think some terms might be useful, we can reserve them, saying we might use them in the future
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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eprodrom q+
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Zakim sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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tantek ack eprodrom
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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eprodrom http://dret.github.io/W3C/SocialWG/AS1-in-AS2.html
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cwebber2 eprodrom: doesn't have the open farm game vocab ;)
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cwebber2 I guess we'll need an extension for that :)
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eprodrom ACTION eprodrom compare AS2 vocabulary with pump.io's use of AS1
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trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
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trackbot Created ACTION-82 - Compare as2 vocabulary with pump.io's use of as1 [on Evan Prodromou - due 2015-12-09].
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cwebber2 (yeah it was an extension originally I know)
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eprodrom eprodrom: this document is useful http://dret.github.io/W3C/SocialWG/AS1-in-AS2.html
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eprodrom sandro: This is useful
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tantek q+ to note at-risk vs pumpio
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eprodrom jasnell_: We could do this in the wiki
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Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
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tantek ack tantek
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Zakim tantek, you wanted to note at-risk vs pumpio
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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eprodrom tantek: the first time we talked about what it would take to get AS2 to CR, I suggested we mark everything as at-risk
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eprodrom tantek: Now, I think we should take stuff to at-risk that's not in pump.io
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eprodrom sandro: we need to review this in CR
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kevinmarks_ so would sending PR's to http://dret.github.io/W3C/SocialWG/AS1-in-AS2.html be useful for eg bengo to do for his implementation
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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eprodrom kevinmarks_: can we get information from bengo on this? Can we send PRs?
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eprodrom sandro: How do we update this document?
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eprodrom bengo: We don't use a lot of different verbs
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kevinmarks_ https://github.com/dret/W3C/tree/master/SocialWG is the repo
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eprodrom bengo: We do have an ongoing project to exercise more verbs
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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eprodrom tantek: There's a proposed agenda item for discussing federation protocol
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eprodrom tantek: 10-minute break
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eprodrom resume at 12:20
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Loqi I added a countdown for 12/2 12:20pm (#5774)
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tantek eprodrom++ for minuting!
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Loqi eprodrom has 27 karma
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wilkie how does loqi know what timezone we are in
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Loqi resume
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Loqi Countdown set by eprodrom on 12/2/15 at 12:10pm
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aaronpk shh it's a secret
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rhiaro loqi knows all
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wilkie does Loqi understand what is on the agenda? is Loqi scared? is Loqi trying to be useful?
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jasnell_ Loqi is becoming self aware
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jasnell_ SkyLoqi
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kevinmarks_ gives loqi some lunch
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ben_thatmustbeme i still want a dump of the things loqi has karma on
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wseltzer scribenick: wseltzer
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tantek Discuss process for Federation Protocol. --Evan
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wseltzer eprodrom: processes we've previously followed, esp for Social API
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wseltzer ... review of non-standardized implementations
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wseltzer ... about 20 APIs, a number of formats
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wseltzer ... collected candidate specs and then reviewed
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wseltzer ... we're trying to run in parallel or converge candidate specs for Social API
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wseltzer ... similar for Social Syntax
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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wseltzer ... Is this also the process for Federation Protocol?
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wseltzer sandro: strawman proposal: don't distinguish between API and federation
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wseltzer ... over past few months; activitypump, solid are both; rhiaro's doc is both
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rhiaro s/rhiaro's doc/Social Protocols doc
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wseltzer ... not closing the door, but until we see a different proposal
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cwebber2 q+
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Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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wseltzer eprodrom: saying we won't support unfederated social API?
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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wseltzer aaronpk: my understanding was that while developing specs, we won't treat them as separata things, but that doesn't mean the result is combined
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wseltzer eprodrom: so one doc?
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wseltzer sandro: we have 3 stacks, keep thinking about them together
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wseltzer ... Social Web Protocols doc -- perhaps reorg so API sections first, federation second
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bengo q+
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Zakim sees cwebber, bengo on the speaker queue
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bengo q-
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Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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wseltzer tantek: I heard, we've done a whole process for API, re-use that for fderation
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tantek ack cwebber
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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wseltzer cwebber2: most of the work on federation has already been considered, discussed in many conversations
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tantek cwebber++ for Star Trek reference
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Loqi cwebber has 5 karma
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wseltzer eprodrom: we haven't looked into details of what's required for federation
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rhiaro is happy to be in Federation Space
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wseltzer ... you can't use webmention for subscribing to remote feed
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tantek s/required for federation/required for federation space
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wseltzer ... so we haven't fully considered federation
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wseltzer ... what does it mean to read a remote feed?
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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aaronpk q+
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Zakim sees aaronpk on the speaker queue
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wseltzer ... thesse are reqts of what a federation protocol do, not nec reflected in usec ases for API
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wseltzer cwebber2: starting to break things into levels
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aaronpk q-
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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wseltzer ... I think it's feasible to keep going that way
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kevinmarks_ the webmention bug on known.kevinmarks.com is fixed now
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wseltzer ... rather than saying federation stuff is off the table
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wseltzer ... we're already making progress
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sandro q+
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Zakim sees sandro on the speaker queue
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wseltzer tantek: I didn't hear eprodrom say federation is off the table
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wseltzer ... but exisiting rqts not yet reflected
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wseltzer cwebber2: can we say that moving forward with API, editors are encouraged to keep working with federation?
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wseltzer eprodrom: that we mix up the 2 deliverables we're supposed to produce?
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wseltzer ... We don't have rqts for federation protocol; we don't have significant analysis of what's out there
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wseltzer ... I'm not trying to stop federation
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tantek rhiaro can you update the link to "Amy's Social API document" here https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-12-01#Editors_drafts ?
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wseltzer ... but asking for systematic analysis, not just byproduct of API wokr
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees sandro on the speaker queue
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wseltzer ... good protocol that people cna implement
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tantek ack sandro
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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wseltzer sandro: Like you, I think federation is important; it would be interesting to analyze
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kevinmarks_ stop trying to make federation happen
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wseltzer ... also think each of the 3 stacks has already come up with a solution they think works
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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tantek q+ to acknowledge Evan's concerns that we have not yet captured explicitly all the desired requirements for federation, and propose we come up with a way to collect those, rather than re-do all of our process steps that we did for Social API.
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Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
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wseltzer ... we're all talking about federation; could probably do it better, but that sounds like R&D
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
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wseltzer eprodrom: we did analysis of API, syntaxes
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wseltzer aaronpk: have we used that?
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wseltzer tantek: for API we did
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
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wseltzer ... AS we chose to move with because so much adoption already
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tantek ack ta
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Zakim tantek, you wanted to acknowledge Evan's concerns that we have not yet captured explicitly all the desired requirements for federation, and propose we come up with a way to collect
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wseltzer ack tantek
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Zakim ... those, rather than re-do all of our process steps that we did for Social API.
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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wseltzer tantek: Existing federation solutions may not be solving all rqts Evan sees as necessary
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eprodrom Review of social syntaxes
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eprodrom https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_syntax/Patterns
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wseltzer ... We did lots of reserach for API
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wseltzer ... user stories, gathering, voting, etc. took lots of time
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cwebber2 q+
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Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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wseltzer ... I wouldn't want to repeat all for federation
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eprodrom q+
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Zakim sees cwebber, eprodrom on the speaker queue
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wseltzer ... and yet we need method to address Evan's issues
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wseltzer ... hope we could find some middle ground; some user stories illustrating federation
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees cwebber, eprodrom on the speaker queue
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tantek ack cwebber2
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Zakim sees cwebber, eprodrom on the speaker queue
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wseltzer ack wilkie
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Zakim sees cwebber, eprodrom on the speaker queue
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tantek ack cwebber
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Zakim sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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wseltzer ack cw
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Zakim sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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kevinmarks_ http://i.imgur.com/9nOuB7F.jpg
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tantek kevinmarks not helpful!
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wseltzer cwebber2: user stories designed to be topologically neutral
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kevinmarks_ sorry
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wseltzer ... Evan, what ground od we need to cover; how to use work already done?
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wseltzer eprodrom: List of requirements for federation:
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tantek feedback on replies, hmm, sounds like Salmentions
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wseltzer .... e.g. @@ remote access to replies
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Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-12-01]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=87048&oldid=87040
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Loqi Rhiaro made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-12-01]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=87049&oldid=87048
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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tantek ack eprodrom
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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wseltzer .... comment remotely, remote interaction with local site
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wseltzer ... which are in-scope, which out
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wseltzer cwebber2: I think everything you said is captiured in user stories
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wseltzer eprodrom: but not expressed as protocol requirements
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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wseltzer ... could we do minimal amount of work, eg. wiki approved in a telcon?
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wseltzer tantek: one possible way of turning rqts into something more concrete
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wseltzer ... do you think we could come up with user stories to illustrate federation?
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wseltzer ... assuming there are holes, what additional miminal user stories would we need to cover rqts?
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cwebber2 q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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sandro q+
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Zakim sees sandro on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 q+
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Zakim sees sandro, cwebber on the speaker queue
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wseltzer ... can you do the diff, and see what's missing from current user stories for federation?
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wseltzer ... add the misssing stories?
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wseltzer cwebber2: I think I mostly understand it, there are propbablyu some holes in the understanding
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wseltzer eprodrom: I'm thinking we take a number of federation protocols to the public/w3c, and say "this is a federation protocol", they'll ask "what does that mean"
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wseltzer ... we want to be able to say "here's what we considered; here's what we left out"
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees sandro, cwebber on the speaker queue
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wseltzer sandro: first reax, use cases cover them all
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tantek ack sandro
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Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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wseltzer ... each stack has a topology
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wseltzer ... yet solid and indieweb have basic one-user-one-site
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wseltzer eprodrom: solid is everything mediated through the client
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wseltzer tantek: webmention demos going through proxies
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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tantek ack cwebber
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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wseltzer cwebber2: strawman: take evan's concern that not everything has been addressed, and try to address
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wseltzer ... ideally through user stories, or supplemental requirement, by a deadline
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melvster Im not sure either statement is accurate: solid does not mandate one user one site, afaik, and the technology can be deployed on the server or the client, typically it's on the client to be user centric and offer more control, but that's not a must
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wseltzer ... discuss
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wseltzer ... only if not already exposed by existing user stories
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wseltzer eprodrom: current user stories are topologically neutral.
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wseltzer ... e.g. 2 players in a "following" scenario, harder in a federated situaiton
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wseltzer tantek: I think we're using "topoligcally netural" differently
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kevinmarks_ we have done SWAT0 with both all indieweb players and with a facebook player https://snarfed.org/silo-swat0-on-facebook
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wseltzer cwebber2: we were saying, you should be able to take all these stories and assume users are on differnet servers, so must be federated
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wseltzer eprodrom: that igves different scope of work
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wseltzer tantek: provide lots of rqts for federation
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sandro q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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wseltzer cwebber2: so show that all the user stories, including gap-fillers, are met
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wseltzer tantek: if someone tags and responds, that's SWAT0
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wseltzer ... following a person is approved user story
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wseltzer eprodrom: we need a remote follow
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wseltzer cwebber2: current user story covers, if you say diff servers
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bengo https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories#Following_a_person
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wseltzer cwebber2: could formalize: you ahve to assume users are on different servers
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wseltzer ... and b) give opprotunity to plug the gap
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wseltzer ... [repeat]
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wseltzer ... a) for your spec to qualify as federation...
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kevinmarks_ that one says "company social network"
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wseltzer eprodrom: does that mean we're soliciting new specs?
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wseltzer cwebber2: we're taking existing stacks
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kevinmarks_ which is not topologically neutral
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wseltzer ... unless there's a really good case for new
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wseltzer eprodrom: will we be adding new parts?
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tantek approved user stories: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/Sorting_user_stories#Entirely_Positive
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wseltzer sandro: Protocols document has indieweb stack, etc
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wseltzer eprodrom: expanding from micropub to indieweb stack
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wseltzer cwebber2: are you happy with loose description of "indieweb stack" ?
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wseltzer tantek: I'd prefer to avoid that characterization
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ben_thatmustbeme micropub was never a federation api, its social API isn't it?
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rhiaro eprodrom: https://github.com/rhiaro/Social-APIs-Brainstorming/blob/gh-pages/indiewebspecs.md
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme, yesterday cwebber asked if micropub could be used for federation
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aaronpk that's the context of that comment
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ben_thatmustbeme ah
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wseltzer cwebber2: more inclusivity; but not actively searching new approach
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bengo "Federation with Microformats2"
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ben_thatmustbeme okay, yead i read the logs on that
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kevinmarks_ well, there's syndication in micropub
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wseltzer cwebber2: proposal b) if gaps, opportunity to propose things not covered by existing user stories
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wseltzer ... do those proposals get there?
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wseltzer eprodrom: why not take tiem to think it through?
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wseltzer ... having already implemented 2 federation stacks, it's not an easy process, doesn't just fall out of user stories, so worth thinking through
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wseltzer ... don;'t want to force on the group, but think hard about what uiser stories imply about server-server communication
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wseltzer ... and requriements: discovery, identity,
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kevinmarks_ q+
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Zakim sees kevinmarks_ on the speaker queue
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees kevinmarks_ on the speaker queue
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wseltzer ... if we pursue each of 2.5 stacks is the best way to go forward, let's, but think abou tit
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wseltzer cwebber2: what' smissing?
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wseltzer eprodrom: looking at other federation stacks that have been tried before, user stories, come up with requirements for federation protocol.
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wseltzer ... I think that's weeks, not months.
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bengo q+
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Zakim sees kevinmarks_, bengo on the speaker queue
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wseltzer needs a new scribe in 4 mins.
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tantek ack kevinmarks
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Zakim sees bengo on the speaker queue
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kevinmarks_ http://indiewebcamp.com/swat0
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bengo q-
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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wseltzer kevinmarks_: one possible approach is SWAT0 on indieweb, wehre we asked what do we need fore ach person in the graph
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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wseltzer ... mapping was informative
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tantek q+ re: Evan's doesn't just fall out of user stories, looking at other federation stacks that have been tried before
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Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
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wseltzer ... we found a few new pieces we needed to implement
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cwebber2 q+ to turn conversation into real proposals
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Zakim sees tantek, cwebber on the speaker queue
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wseltzer ... how would you expand story into sequence of steps.
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eprodrom q+
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Zakim sees tantek, cwebber, eprodrom on the speaker queue
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wseltzer tantek: eprodrom has built many of these systems
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wseltzer ... so I'm willing to believe that verything doesn't necessarily fall out of user stoires
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wseltzer ... wilkie has built a lot too
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eprodrom q+
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Zakim sees tantek, cwebber, eprodrom on the speaker queue
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees tantek, cwebber, eprodrom on the speaker queue
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tantek ack tantek
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Zakim tantek, you wanted to discuss Evan's doesn't just fall out of user stories, looking at other federation stacks that have been tried before
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wseltzer bengo: can you add more of that knowledge to the not-existing stories
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Zakim sees cwebber, eprodrom on the speaker queue
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rhiaro wseltzer: I'll pick up scribing if you need to run
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wseltzer tantek: I agree we're missing pieces
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bengo https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?title=Socialwg/Federation/Requirements&action=edit&redlink=1
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wseltzer thanks rhiaro
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wseltzer tantek: but I don't think we need such thorough research as previously
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wseltzer ... open the door for a few weeks
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sandro q+
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Zakim sees cwebber, eprodrom, sandro on the speaker queue
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wseltzer ... ... additional user stories for federation holes is reasonable; good place to cite prior efforts
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wseltzer ... e.g. in the past, this story was implemented by PQR
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wseltzer ... implementations as background to user story
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees cwebber, eprodrom, sandro on the speaker queue
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wseltzer eprodrom: I thin that makes sense
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tantek ack cwebber
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Zakim cwebber, you wanted to turn conversation into real proposals
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Zakim sees eprodrom, sandro on the speaker queue
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wseltzer cwebber2: since I'm making three proposals, I should type them out
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wseltzer scribe appreciates that :)
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees eprodrom, sandro on the speaker queue
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tantek ack eprodrom
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Zakim sees sandro on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 q+
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Zakim sees sandro, cwebber on the speaker queue
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wseltzer eprodrom: I suggest that we ack that we're unlikely to solicit other federaation protocol proposals
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wseltzer ... besides activity pump, solid, indieweb cluster
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kevinmarks_ indieweb components?
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wseltzer ... pulling in lots of things there
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rhiaro indiewebstuff
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tantek (aside: indieweb has tended to use Webmention + Salmention + PuSH for Federation use-cases)
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kevinmarks_ not so much a stack as a jumble
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wseltzer ... we'll move forward with those, review other feed proposoals, review of user stories with critical eye ot federation
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tantek kevinmarks, or building blocks
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wseltzer ... we probably won't implement federated search
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ben_thatmustbeme was that wseltzer's phone?
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wseltzer ... idea that federation is "doing whatever social does on the web" is a long reach
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ben_thatmustbeme oh, n/m that was on talky i think
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wseltzer ... so describe what we ned to do
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wseltzer ... I'll take th lead
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sandro +1 eprodrom taking the lead on writing the list of which features are in bounds and which are out of bounds
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wseltzer ... remote subsscribe, remote feedback, access to profilees
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wseltzer ... and "this is what we're not trying to do" e.g. federated search
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees sandro, cwebber on the speaker queue
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wseltzer ... so list, agree on telecon, and them move forward
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wseltzer ... reasonable next step?
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kevinmarks_ as in tantek.com/2015/224/b1
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tantek ack sandro
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wseltzer tantek: would you be open to be acuretor?
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Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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wseltzer eprodrom: yes
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tantek s/acuretor/curator
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wseltzer sandro: I can't think of a user story
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wseltzer ... each feature that's out of bounds needs a paragraph explaining why it's out of bounds
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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tantek ack cwebber
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 ack that we are unlikely to solicit other protocols / the bar is very high; as a side effort do review of other federation protocols, consider user stories with critical eye to federation, being critical of inbound new requests for expanding scope of the group (Evan will take lead / be "curator")
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wseltzer cwebber: ^
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wseltzer ... 1. we are unlikely to solicit other protocols / the bar is very high
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wseltzer .... 2. as a side effort do
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wseltzer review of other federation protocols, consider user stories with critical eye to federation, being
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wseltzer critical of inbound new requests for expanding scope of the group (Evan will take lead
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wseltzer tantek: those sound like guiding principles
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wseltzer sandro: is pubsubhubbub part of the stack?
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wseltzer cwebber2: if indieweb stack does so
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wseltzer tantek: table that discussion
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wseltzer cwebber2: things we agreed at Boston meeting
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rhiaro scribenick: rhiaro
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bengo This page now exists and has some related work: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Federation/Requirements
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Loqi Bgoering made 3 edits to [[Socialwg/Federation/Requirements]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=87058&oldid=0
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rhiaro cwebber2: Can turn these principles into actual proposals?
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rhiaro tantek: thought I heard that from evan, with modified suggestsion from myself and sandro
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rhiaro eprodrom: I'll see if I can do a proposal
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rhiaro a pile more than a stack
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rhiaro .. or a healp
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eprodrom PROPOSED: Continue developing federation aspects of existing candidate specs (ActivityPump, SoLiD, Micropub/IndieWeb building blocks) and in parallel develop requirements from user stories and other federation protocol efforts
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rhiaro .. heap
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rhiaro tantek: you're volunteering for that right?
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rhiaro eprodrom: yes
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cwebber2 social register machine
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eprodrom PROPOSED: Continue developing federation aspects of existing candidate specs (ActivityPump, SoLiD, Micropub/IndieWeb building blocks) and in parallel Evan will curate requirements from user stories and other federation protocol efforts
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rhiaro tantek: make that an open call fro requirements from the wg, and trust you to curate the input you receive
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rhiaro ... and from sandro, any non-requirements you document with a paragraph explaining why
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rhiaro sandro: with bodies
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eprodrom PROPOSED: Continue developing federation aspects of existing candidate specs (ActivityPump, SoLiD, Micropub/IndieWeb building blocks) and in parallel Evan will curate requirements from user stories and other federation protocol efforts, with documented reasons for non-requirements
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cwebber2 +1
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rhiaro tantek: how much time for call for reqs?
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rhiaro eprodrom: next month?
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rhiaro ... next 4 telecons?
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sandro +1
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wilkie +1
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tantek_ +1
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rhiaro kevinmarks: will need more than a month
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tsyesika +1
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rhiaro eprodrom: not a great month to get work done
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bengo +1
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kevinmarks_ +1
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eprodrom +1
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aaronpk +1
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rhiaro RESOLVED: Continue developing federation aspects of existing candidate specs (ActivityPump, SoLiD, Micropub/IndieWeb building blocks) and in parallel Evan will curate requirements from user stories and other federation protocol efforts, with documented reasons for non-requirements
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rhiaro ACTION: eprodrom to Continue developing federation aspects of existing candidate specs (ActivityPump, SoLiD, Micropub/IndieWeb building blocks) and in parallel Evan will curate requirements from user stories and other federation protocol efforts, with documented reasons for non-requirements
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trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
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RRSAgent records action 2
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trackbot Created ACTION-83 - Continue developing federation aspects of existing candidate specs (activitypump, solid, micropub/indieweb building blocks) and in parallel evan will curate requirements from user stories and other federation protocol efforts, with documented reasons for non-requirements [on Evan Prodromou - due 2015-12-09].
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rhiaro *adjourn for lunch*
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aaronpk RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
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RRSAgent ok, aaronpk; I will not start a new log at midnight
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ben_thatmustbeme @here, as I already have wget copies of all old socialWG minutes, would it be useful to put a page together for WG resolutions and what meetings they were in?
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aaronpk oh yes we were just talking about this
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eprodrom ben_thatmustbeme: that would be amazing
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rhiaro ben_thatmustbeme, aaronpk: was it azaroth who said he has a script for this already?
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melvster I'd like to clarify one point. Solid is not bound to the one user one site policy. It would be essentially incapable of widespread adoption if it were, because it would be impossible for social nets like facebook, google, twitter, icloud etc. to adopt. If that's a limitation (actual or perceived) it should be looked at. But im not sure it is.
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rhiaro melvster: that discussion was rapid and could have been minuted in more detail. Thanks for the clarification for the minutes!
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melvster And in practice Tim's profile is on w3.org with a bunch of other people, so in reality I think that's not the situation
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rhiaro melvster: I don't think anyone actually in the room thinks that, we know solid allows both multi user and single user
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melvster ok cool
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Loqi Eprodrom made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/Federation/Patterns]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=87062&oldid=0
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melvster the other part is about Solid being client side technology ... I can see why it gives that impression because most of the demos are client side apps ... but the same JS could actually live anywhere ... e.g. on a server running node, on a different server running node, in a desktop say electron app, or anywhere else ... when you want performance you'll probably use a server, when you want user control you'll probably use the the client ... in short, Solid
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melvster is super flexible and probably covers the topologies of both of the other two stacks
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ben_thatmustbeme huh, rhiaro, eprodrom, azaroth, it looks like there would be a lot of manual checking with that, but i'll throw a quick fetch of what i get in to the wiki, and we can work with it from there
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ben_thatmustbeme just literally grepping all minutes for 'resolved:' (case insensative)
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eprodrom melvster: sure
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: do you have a permalink associated with them that you can also add?
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: i'll have the link to the document, i don't have link to the specific lines
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eprodrom But there are things like, if I post a note, the server would take care of distributing that note to all of my followers
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eprodrom In SoLiD, that is up to the client
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eprodrom Sorry, rhiaro just corrected me, there is server-to-server communication using WebSockets
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melvster eprodrom: it's good that you raise that, it ties in to my previous point. When a user posts a note, it happens on the server. Now all that is specified (loosely) is that some javascript (or other language) will then act on that posting and then federate out to followers. In the case of systems with few followers you can 'get away' with that JS living on the client. In the case of larger user bases, it's probably going to mean the JS has to live very
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melvster close to, or on the server (or server farms). So there is architectural flexibility much like 3 tier MVC programming vs fat clients. Solid allows both. Hope that makes sense!
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melvster eprodrom: in practice, because solid is young, we've not dont much of this kind of stress testing, but we'd like to see more of it happen as the work progresses
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melvster and yes solid can communicate via websocket and/or HTTP
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Loqi Eprodrom made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/Federation/Patterns]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=87063&oldid=87062
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bengo https://aaronparecki.com/notes/2014/09/10/1/webactions
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melvster it strikes me that IWC is more the one user one site policy, AP is more the one site many users ... solid is either
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aaronpk plenty of indieweb examples of multiple users per site in IWC, (*.withknown.com, *.wordpress.com, etc)
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aaronpk it's just that when they federate, they use the same protocol as they would if they were on different domains
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melvster i should probably replace 'site' with 'origin'
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melvster or in IWC case, 'homepage'?
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melvster but we could probably not expect facebook to adopt the *.facebook.com policy for every user
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aaronpk the IWC specs don't actually care about whether something is in a subfolder or not, a URL is a URL
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melvster any examples of that in the wild?
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melvster ie multiple users on the same origin?
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aaronpk you can find some of those here http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk, eprodrom https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/resolutions
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ben_thatmustbeme don't know where you want to link that
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme++
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme has 125 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme needs a lot of cleanup still
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ben_thatmustbeme and i'm sure there are some missing
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aaronpk lol "with unanimous silence, we've approved it"
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melvster hmmm 'own your data is one of the principles of the IndieWeb and is an encouragement to always post content directly to your own domain'
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eprodrom ben_thatmustbeme: really nice!
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eprodrom ben_thatmustbeme: one thing is that URLs are being handled weirdly
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eprodrom The full <a> is in there
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eprodrom Rather than just the URL
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melvster 'Examples of what doesn't count: You post some notes on your own site, and some notes directly to Twitter'
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: yeah, i know thats just a quick dump, there is certainly cleanup to do
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aaronpk melvster, i'm not sure what point you are trying to make
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ben_thatmustbeme and i've already found others
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bengo ben_thatmustbeme is there a github repo to which I can make pull requests of https://github.com/w3c-social/Social-Syntax-Brainstorming/wiki/jf2#context ?
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eprodrom ben_thatmustbeme: OK. Let me know when you're tired of re-dumping and I can edit by hand
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Zakim eprodrom, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
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eprodrom Oh, am I still the scribe?
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Loqi Benthatmustbeme made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/resolutions]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=87065&oldid=0
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wilkie I can edit by hand
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Zakim wilkie, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
#
eprodrom ben_thatmustbeme: OK. Let me know when you're tired of re-dumping and I can edit manually
#
wilkie hand
#
Zakim sees wilkie on the speaker queue
#
tantek zakim talk to the hand
#
Zakim tantek, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
#
rhiaro Let's give everyone a big hand
#
Zakim rhiaro, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
#
wilkie ack wilkie
#
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk i raise my hand
#
Zakim aaronpk, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
#
eprodrom lower hand
#
wseltzer zakim, raise hand
#
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
#
Zakim I see wseltzer on the speaker queue
#
eprodrom hand
#
Zakim sees wseltzer, eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
eprodrom lower hand
#
Zakim sees wseltzer on the speaker queue
#
wseltzer zakim, lower hand
#
Zakim I see no one on the speaker queue
#
jasnell we've got to hand it to the developers
#
aaronpk upper hand
#
Zakim sees upper on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2 Zakim, high five
#
Zakim I don't understand 'high five', cwebber2
#
cwebber2 aw
#
tantek Zakim, I'd like to offer you my hand to help you with your queue.
#
Zakim I don't understand you, tantek
#
aaronpk !tell Zakim good morning
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
tantek !tell Zakim hand
#
Zakim sees upper, !tell, Zakim on the speaker queue
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
aaronpk oh no
#
Loqi Zakim: aaronpk left you a message 16 seconds ago: good morning http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-12-02/line/1449093231431
#
aaronpk ack Zakim
#
Zakim sees upper, !tell on the speaker queue
#
Loqi Zakim: tantek left you a message 44 seconds ago: hand http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-12-02/line/1449093242149
#
aaronpk (everyone waits for Zakim to say something before we can continue the meeting)
#
cwebber2 in socialwg russia, zakim queues zakim
#
wseltzer aww, give a bot a hand
#
Zakim wseltzer, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
#
Loqi :)
#
tantek zakim, hand to zakim
#
Zakim I don't understand 'hand to zakim', tantek
#
wilkie lower upper hand
#
Zakim sees upper, !tell, lower on the speaker queue
#
tantek zakim, drop hands
#
Zakim sorry, tantek, I can't do that anymore
#
wseltzer zakim, respond also to HAL
#
Zakim I don't understand 'respond also to HAL', wseltzer
#
tantek Zakim, open the pod bay doors
#
Zakim I don't understand 'open the pod bay doors', tantek
#
cwebber2 zakim, help
#
Zakim Some of the commands I know are:
#
Zakim Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot for more detailed help.
#
Zakim xxx is yyy - establish yyy as the name of unknown party xxx
#
Zakim if yyy is 'me' or 'I', your nick is substituted
#
Zakim xxx may be yyy - establish yyy as possibly the name of unknown party xxx
#
Zakim I am xxx - establish your nick as the name of unknown party xxx
#
Zakim xxx holds yyy [, zzz ...] - establish xxx as a group name and yyy, etc. as participants within that group
#
Zakim xxx also holds yyy - add yyy to the list of participants in group xxx
#
Zakim who's here? - lists the participants on the phone
#
Zakim who's muted? - lists the participants who are muted
#
Zakim mute xxx - mutes party xxx (like pressing 61#)
#
Zakim unmute xxx - reverses the effect of "mute" and of 61#
#
Zakim is xxx here? - reports whether a party named like xxx is present
#
Zakim list conferences - reports the active conferences
#
Zakim this is xxx - associates this channel with conference xxx
#
Zakim excuse us - disconnects from the irc channel
#
Zakim I last learned something new on $Date: 2015/08/27 01:09:18 $
#
azaroth zakim, who holds your hand
#
Zakim sorry, azaroth, I do not recognize a party named 'who'
#
azaroth zakim, azaroth holds your hand
#
Zakim sorry, azaroth, I do not recognize a party named 'azaroth'
#
azaroth :(
#
tantek zakim hand
#
Zakim sees upper, !tell, lower, zakim on the speaker queue
#
wseltzer i/*adjourn for lunch*
#
cwebber2 zakim, what's the code?
#
Zakim I have been told this is
#
wseltzer i/*adjourn for lunch*/Topic: LUNCH
#
bengo https://gist.githubusercontent.com/gobengo/aef6d083290930e25025/raw/02bdf242d4d39000efdb4849db414bad85ec3463/indieweb-social.json
#
tantek zakim, what is?
#
Zakim I don't understand your question, tantek.
#
aaronpk i?
#
bengo forgot we actually have a bit of as2-ish like that
syncbot joined the channel
#
tantek who is syncbot?
#
cwebber2 syncbot: hello!
#
syncbot Oh hi cwebber2!
#
cwebber2 syncbot: source
#
syncbot I'm a little irc bot for 8sync! Patches welcome / happy hacking!
#
syncbot My source: https://notabug.org/cwebber/syncbot
#
syncbot 8sync's source: https://notabug.org/cwebber/8sync
#
jasnell Zakim why you no queue yourself?
#
tantek !tell syncbot hello
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
jasnell Zakim y u no do queue yourself?
#
Loqi http://meme.loqi.me/4eXaYt73.jpg
#
azaroth And then we told them, RESOLVED: ...
#
Loqi http://meme.loqi.me/4eXuJ4NS.jpg
#
cwebber2 syncbot: botrival
#
cwebber2 nope
#
cwebber2 syncbot: botrival
#
syncbot *engages turing test with trackbot*
#
Loqi syncbot: tantek left you a message 3 minutes ago: hello http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-12-02/line/1449093573562
#
syncbot *stupid puppy look*
#
cwebber2 syncbot: help
#
syncbot I can't help you... I can't even help myself!
#
tantek syncbot, what is your function?
#
rhiaro notes for bystanders that she will clean the bot taunting from the minutes afterwards
#
azaroth thanks rhiaro
#
cwebber2 syncbot: d20
#
syncbot cwebber2: *rolls*... you get a 2!
#
cwebber2 loqi: botsnack
#
azaroth syncbot: dfate
#
syncbot *stupid puppy look*
#
azaroth syncbot: df
#
syncbot *stupid puppy look*
#
cwebber2 azaroth: roll-fate
#
cwebber2 oops
#
cwebber2 syncbot: roll-fate
#
syncbot cwebber2: Rolling at 0: [_] [+] [-] [+] -> 1! (average)
snarfed joined the channel
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azaroth :)
#
cwebber2 syncbot: botsnack
#
syncbot *eyes treat suspiciously... then furiously devours it!*
#
cwebber2 syncbot: sorry, time to kick you out
#
syncbot *stupid puppy look*
#
wseltzer [Lunch is over]
#
wseltzer Topic: Agenda-bash, post-lunch
#
wseltzer Arnaud1: jasnell wanted to talk activity streams, and he needs to leave
#
wseltzer ... how much can we discuss without overriding agenda
#
wseltzer tantek: I relinquish my time in favor of AS2
#
wseltzer ... return with AOB if time
#
wseltzer Arnaud1: more to talk about re API and federation protocol?
#
ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom, cleaned up more https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/resolutions
#
wseltzer ... f2f meeting schedule
#
wseltzer ... github workflow
#
wseltzer ... so for the next hour, we can talk AS2
#
wseltzer ... Anything else not on the agenda?
#
Loqi Benthatmustbeme made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/resolutions]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=87066&oldid=87065
#
wseltzer ... hearing no additions, let's move forward
#
wseltzer ... Good progress yesterday closing AS issues, let's continue
#
wseltzer Topic: Activity Streams Issues
#
wseltzer Arnaud1: James, over to you
#
wseltzer i/Agenda-bash/scribenick: wseltzer
#
wseltzer jasnell: most pressing issues: adding new things, or bringing back things that were removed
#
wseltzer ... about 3 we should discuss individually
#
wseltzer ... Propose we start with bulk issues
#
wseltzer ... If objection, pull it out of the list for discussion
#
jasnell Specific types of Offer? - https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/175
#
jasnell Account / accounts - https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/235
#
jasnell Assign activity (bring back) - https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/240
#
jasnell Confirm Activity (bring back) - https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/256
#
jasnell CheckOut / CheckIn activities - https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/242
#
jasnell Blob Types - https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/223
#
wseltzer jasnell: as posted to irc ^
#
wseltzer ... 175, author activity. eprodrom wondered if we need specific kinds of authors
#
wseltzer s/author/offer/
#
wseltzer s/authors/offers/
#
wseltzer jasnell: I think we should drop offer
#
wseltzer ... I'm recommending we close all these
#
wseltzer jasnell: Account. none of our use cases call for it
#
wseltzer ... Assign and Confirm previously removed from vocab for lack of broad interest
#
wseltzer ... Checkout, Checkin. source-control use case
#
wseltzer ... blob types, proposal was unclear, no justifying use-cases
#
wseltzer ... PROPOSED: close the set due to lack of action/justification
#
tantek +1
#
aaronpk +1
#
jasnell +1
#
wilkie +1
#
bengo +1
#
wseltzer ... all can be done as extension if someone wants
#
wseltzer jasnell: to eprodrom, do you ahve specific types of offers?
#
wseltzer eprodrom: in the example, URN product-offer
#
wseltzer ... examples should use core vocab if it exists, if not, are we covering schema of the verb
#
wseltzer jasnell: we're only covering a bit of the idea
#
azaroth +1
#
wseltzer ... in general offer should be marked at-risk
#
wseltzer eprodrom: that sounds ok to me
#
cwebber2 +0
#
wseltzer eprodrom: I'd rather put at-risk than define fully
#
eprodrom +1
#
wseltzer jasnell: hearing no objectins, mark the above set closed.
#
wseltzer RESOLVED: mark the above set closed
#
sandro RRSAgent, pointer?
#
RRSAgent See http://www.w3.org/2015/12/02-social-irc#T22-16-57
#
wseltzer RESOLVED: mark the above set closed: 175, 235, 240, 256, 242, and 223
#
jasnell https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/208
#
wseltzer jasnell: Also recommend closing 208 without action
#
wseltzer ... proposal to revisit a fundamental design point in RDF
#
wseltzer ... since RDF is optional, nothing to do, close
#
wseltzer PROPOSED: close 208
#
tantek +1
#
cwebber2 +1
#
jasnell +1
#
azaroth +1 to closing rather than starting again
#
eprodrom +1
#
wilkie +1
#
bengo +1
#
sandro +1
#
aaronpk +1
#
wseltzer Arnaud: Challenge, when we close issues when the person who raised it is not present in the discussion
#
wseltzer ... likely a bit of resentment at not being able to defend
#
wseltzer jasnell: this issue has been on github for a while
#
wseltzer Arnaud: At least I'd like the justification we agreed on to be recorded
#
wseltzer ... can we agree on the reason to close?
#
ben_thatmustbeme also, we have a system for that, object at next meeting before approval of minutes
#
wseltzer jasnell: as I said, the RDF modeling is optional, non-normative
#
Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-12-01]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=87067&oldid=87049
#
Loqi Sandro made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-12-01]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=87068&oldid=87067
#
wseltzer azaroth: it's a total recasting of the spec to say that things that are currently classes should be relationships
#
wseltzer jasnell: it goes back and changes fundameental design
#
wseltzer sandro: no justification given for reopening this previously settled issue
#
wseltzer Arnaud: also, the issue lacks description of the rational for reopening
#
wseltzer rhiaro: there's a bunch of dsicussion in github
#
wseltzer ... sounds as though it's going back to AS1, which was presumably changed for a reason
#
wseltzer Arnaud: there's a link in the issue to a wiki page
#
wseltzer ... describing a model he thnks is better without xplaining the benefit
#
wseltzer rhiaro: I think he's saying the benefit is types of properties we can reuse for direct relations
#
azaroth +1 to bengo
#
tantek aside: azaroth do you have a link to the minutes of the Web Annotation breakout session at TPAC?
#
wseltzer bengo, can you type that in?
#
wseltzer missed it, thanks
#
bengo wiki page proposes "If we have Follow, we need isFollowing and isFollowedBy relation"
#
tantek aside: azaroth n.m. just found it at https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2015/SessionIdeas#Web_Annotations
#
bengo that's state, not atomic activities (like log objects)
#
bengo that may or may not still be true or guaranteed to have not been reversed
#
azaroth tantek: ... Yep :) was just looking it up
#
wseltzer jasnell: while it could be better in some use cases, that's not drawn out, unclear they're core use cases
#
bengo state is harder than activity objects
#
bengo make scope had
#
bengo *hard
#
ben_thatmustbeme ahs to go catch a train
#
wseltzer Arnaud: can we agree that we're not convinced possible benefits justify reengineering the data model at this point?
#
sandro yep
#
wseltzer RESOLVED: close issue 208
#
wseltzer rhiaro: it could be reopened as an alternative
#
bengo updating a stateful social graph from activity objects out of scope of this syntax
#
wseltzer sandro: it could be a straightforward transform
#
wseltzer jasnell: next set of proposals
#
jasnell https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/268
#
sandro (from RDF to RDF)
#
wseltzer ... 268 is one I'd like to see happen
#
wseltzer ... removing existing content object, flatten hierarchy, simplify vocab
eprodrom joined the channel
#
wseltzer ... Content obj in vocab now is non-functional abstract
#
wseltzer ... duration could move up a layer, eliimnate layer of abstraction, simplify
#
wseltzer ... clarify use of dimensions
#
wseltzer ... overall, think it's an improvement.
#
wseltzer ... I have a current;y open pull request
#
eprodrom q+
#
Zakim sees upper, !tell, lower, zakim, eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
wseltzer PROPOSED: close the issue, dropping content objects
#
wseltzer q=eprodrom
#
Zakim wseltzer, if you meant to query the queue, please say 'q?'; if you meant to replace the queue, please say 'queue= ...'
#
Zakim sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
wseltzer queue=eprodrom
#
Arnaud ack eprodrom
#
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
#
wseltzer eprodrom: to make sure I understand issue, content is intermediate abstract type
#
wseltzer ... prperties used by it will be sent to object or used on clasees
#
tantek +1
#
azaroth q+ to clarify properties -not- on the subclasss
#
Zakim sees azaroth on the speaker queue
#
wseltzer ... since we dont' have range specified for CRUD verbs, no reason to maintain
#
wseltzer jasnell: right
#
wseltzer jasnell: only three properties. Height, width, duration
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wseltzer ... height and width move to link
#
wseltzer ... dureation moves to object
#
Arnaud ack azaroth
#
Zakim azaroth, you wanted to clarify properties -not- on the subclasss
#
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
#
eprodrom +1
#
wseltzer ... duration nt on link
#
wseltzer s/nt/not/
#
azaroth +1
#
aaronpk +1
#
eprodrom +1
#
wilkie +1
#
sandro +1
#
rhiaro +1
#
wseltzer Arnaud: please vote
#
cwebber2 +1
#
bengo 0
#
Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-12-01]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=87069&oldid=87068
#
wseltzer RESOLVED: close the issue, dropping content objects
#
jasnell https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/157
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wseltzer jasnell: 157, opened by eprodrom
#
wseltzer ... do we need a blog object type to repreesent that common use case
#
wseltzer ... I'd like to propose either website or site
#
wseltzer ... currently have a "page" type
#
wseltzer ... site as same level of generality
#
jasnell q?
#
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
#
wseltzer eprodrom: motivation was that first example in core was using extension type for blog
#
wseltzer ... if it's such a good exmample, maybe it should be in vocab, or change example
#
bengo Site is in our domain: https://github.com/gobengo/activity-mocks/blob/master/mocks/livefyre/site-post-collection.json#L3
#
wseltzer ... I like change to use ordered collection, rather than blog, in example
#
bengo (as1)
#
wseltzer ... as that's the only place "blog" is referenced
#
wseltzer Arnaud: which do you prefer?
#
wseltzer eprodrom: jasnell's pull request replaces "blog" with "prdered collection". that makes sense to me
#
wseltzer s/prdered/ordered/
#
wseltzer ... I prefer ordered collection.
#
wseltzer PROPOSAL: close 157, replacing example with ordered collection
#
wseltzer tantek: collection vs ordered collection?
#
azaroth +1
#
wseltzer jasnell: blogs tend to be ordered by date
#
wseltzer s/PROPOSAL/PROPOSED/
#
eprodrom +1
#
wseltzer ... and it's just informative
#
tantek +1
#
eprodrom +1
#
wilkie +1
#
jasnell +1
#
aaronpk +1
#
cwebber2 +1
#
wseltzer Arnaud: everyone agrees?
#
wseltzer RESOLVED: close 157
#
jasnell https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/251
#
wseltzer jasnell: 251, language property
#
wseltzer ... background. JSON-LD has @language keyword
#
wseltzer ... that can be used within context
#
wseltzer ... to specify language of document
#
wseltzer ... or at value, to set for value
#
wseltzer ... according to W3C guidelines, every format should have way to specify language default for each item
#
wseltzer ... the only way we can do that is JSON-LD
#
wseltzer ... current spec says it's optional, since JSON-LD is optional
#
wseltzer ... propsal from Rob is to add language property
#
wseltzer ... challeng is that it's not compatible with JSON-LD
#
wseltzer tantek: you can't just alias?
#
wseltzer jasnell: no
#
tantek sounds like a bug in JSON-LD if it can't handle JSON documents that have a "language" property explicitly
#
wseltzer jasnell: @Context processing requires a processing model
#
wseltzer sandro: or "use this boilerplate text, put your language here"
#
wseltzer tantek: why doesn't it play well?
#
wseltzer sandro: JSON-LD has its own way to do language tagging, and this isn't it
#
wseltzer azaroth: JSON-LD, all the string values are now lang-type
#
cwebber2 q+
#
Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
#
wseltzer ... thta doesn't mean you can use it with a web page
tilgovi joined the channel
#
wseltzer jasnell: when I have a JSON-LD doc that @context Lang=EN, every string will be expanded to a language-tagged string
#
Arnaud I see you, cwebber ;-)
#
wseltzer ... vs if we @@ the strings don't get tagged
#
wseltzer ... to some of the JSON-LD folks, it's recognized as a limitation of JSON-LD
#
wseltzer ... possibly to be addressed in new version, but not there yet
#
wseltzer ... so we could go with limited profile of JSON-LD, boilerplate text
#
tantek q+ to note that we could add a 'language' property for JSON processors, and then add extra processing step for JSON-LD consumers to pay attention to the 'language' property.
#
Zakim sees cwebber, tantek on the speaker queue
#
wseltzer ... or we go with the language property, that was in the original version of AS2, that doesn't play well with JSON-LD
#
Arnaud ack cwebber
#
Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
#
wseltzer ... JSON-LD implementers would have to do more work with language property
#
sandro q+
#
Zakim sees tantek, sandro on the speaker queue
#
wseltzer cwebber2: I understand @language doesnt' cover all the case we want
#
wseltzer ... within the scope of things it does do
#
wseltzer ... is it possible ot alias @language to Language
#
wseltzer jasnell: no.
#
wseltzer ... JSON-LD algorithms will ignore Language except in very specific places
#
wseltzer cwebber2: same for @vocab, @base
#
wseltzer jasnell: yes
#
Arnaud ack tantek
#
Zakim tantek, you wanted to note that we could add a 'language' property for JSON processors, and then add extra processing step for JSON-LD consumers to pay attention to the
#
wseltzer ... only ID and type can be aliased
#
Zakim sees sandro on the speaker queue
#
Zakim ... 'language' property.
#
wseltzer tantek: inclusion of lang in HTML at a document level is at least 1/2 a disaster
#
wseltzer ... lang=en is meaningless in the wild because it
#
wseltzer ... is in templates
#
wseltzer ... if we need to specifry language, we should have a property
#
wseltzer ... if that requires extra work for JSON-LD processors, we should specify the extra work
#
wseltzer jasnell: the extra work is not necssarily trivial
#
jasnell q?
#
Zakim sees sandro on the speaker queue
#
azaroth Playground: http://json-ld.org/playground/index.html#startTab=tab-expanded&json-ld=%7B%22%40context%22%3A%7B%22language%22%3A%22%40language%22%2C%22value%22%3A%22%40value%22%2C%22foo%22%3A%22http%3A%2F%2Fexample.org%2Fvalue%22%7D%2C%22foo%22%3A%7B%22language%22%3A%22en%22%2C%22value%22%3A%22other%20stuff%22%7D%7D
#
Arnaud ack sandro
#
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
#
wseltzer ack sandro
#
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
#
wseltzer sandro: can you do @language in AS per-value?
#
wseltzer jasnell: @@
#
wseltzer ... extension would ahve to define themselves
#
wseltzer sandro: so issue is you read i18n guidelines as saying we need a whole-doc language tag?
#
wseltzer ... my sense is it does more damage than help, so we shouldn't do it
#
wseltzer jasnell: we could take current lang defaul tout
#
wseltzer ... and dont add language property
#
azaroth JSON-LD Playground example of aliasing @language and @value: http://tinyurl.com/zrnxo27
#
wseltzer ... explicitly don't provide default language in the format
#
wseltzer cwebber2: I think that's better
#
wseltzer tantek: I didsagree
#
cwebber2 s/didsagree/agree/
#
wseltzer sandro: proactively go to i18n group with this question
#
tantek thx cwebber2
#
cwebber2 np
#
wseltzer jasnell: there's one doc section with default language context. propose to remove that section
#
tantek q?
#
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
#
wseltzer ... and document the reasoning
#
wseltzer tantek: anohter way to be proactive, is document, highlighting for specific i18n review
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wseltzer ... at CR time
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wseltzer Arnaud: what's our position in the meantime
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wseltzer jasnell: in the interime
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wseltzer ... remove the current text, close issue 251
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wseltzer PROPOSED: remove the current text, close issue 251
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wseltzer Arnaud: are you happy with that?
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wseltzer azaroth: yes
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wseltzer sandro: and get i18n review
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wseltzer jasnell: this has been messy for a while
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wseltzer ... so I'm happy to see movement
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wseltzer ACTION: Sandro to bring issue to i18n
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trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
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RRSAgent records action 3
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trackbot Created ACTION-84 - Bring issue to i18n [on Sandro Hawke - due 2015-12-09].
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jasnell +1
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azaroth +1
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sandro +1
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cwebber2 +1
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wilkie +1
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rhiaro +1
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wseltzer note action-84, the "issue" is default language for whole document
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tantek +1
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eprodrom +1
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wseltzer Arnaud: seeing agreement
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wseltzer RESOLVED: remove the current text, close issue 251
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wseltzer scribenick: bengo
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jasnell https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/269
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bengo jasnell: one way we could deal with transience is expires
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azaroth q+ to ask about value of property
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Zakim sees azaroth on the speaker queue
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bengo jasnell: without necessarily needing processing model specified
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azaroth q-
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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bengo jasnell: value would be date and time at whcih it should be considered invalid. has come up a few times
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bengo jasnell: was'nt acted upon because no implementations needed it
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eprodrom q+
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Zakim sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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bengo jasnell: one way of dealing with this
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cwebber2 q+
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Zakim sees eprodrom, cwebber on the speaker queue
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bengo azaroth: are there two implementations of this or promises to impl
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bengo jasnell no
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Arnaud ack eprodrom
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Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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bengo eprodrom: this seems like a informative, nonpresriptive way
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bengo eprodrom: it's elegant way to handle
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Arnaud ack cwebber
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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sandro q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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bengo eprodrom: this makes the most sense. dont see better alternative
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bengo cwebber2: transiency came up. in pump.io you have to leave tombstone behind
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bengo cwebber2 that way other things can still reference it
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bengo cwebber2: how can you verify subcomponents of message if they go away
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bengo cwebber2: i had originally thoguht of dealing with this via source signatures, which are complex
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bengo cwebber2: Expires is interesting but in a federated context it could create its own complexities
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sandro q+
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Zakim sees sandro on the speaker queue
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bengo cwebber2: if you make something and tell another system, but it's expired by then, the other system doesn't know if true or false
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bengo cwebber2 I'm not sure expires doesn't add more complexity unless thought through more.
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azaroth +1 to extension and experimentation
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bengo cwebber2 use an extension it would be easier to take time to think through
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tantek q+ to note that transient *content* (part of a post) is a use-case seen more than just "whole posts", from IndieWeb research: https://indiewebcamp.com/expiring_content
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Zakim sees sandro, tantek on the speaker queue
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bengo cwebber2: Whether expires, signatures, something else. Leave this as an unsolved problem
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bengo sandro: on flip side, can't do as extension
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bengo Arnaud: yes you can
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eprodrom q+
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Zakim sees sandro, tantek, eprodrom on the speaker queue
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Arnaud ack sandro
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Zakim sees tantek, eprodrom on the speaker queue
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bengo sandro: snapchat means expires and transiency is important enough to be Core
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bengo cwebber2: It's possible if activitypump processing rules require it
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bengo cwebber2: (even if extension)
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bengo cwebber2: might even be that we can't solve in this timeframe but do have to do in core eventually, but we should take our time
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bengo cwebber2: Each server in federation has a decision to make on expiry
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azaroth q?
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Zakim sees tantek, eprodrom on the speaker queue
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bengo eprodrom: Please don't say signatures again (to cwebber2 )
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Arnaud ack eprodrom
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Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
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bengo eprodrom: another form of transiency is very small or not that important of activities
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bengo eprodrom IMing, turned left, turned right, big data stuff
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bengo eprodrom expires coul dindicate "this isn't crucial"
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bengo cwebber2 ephemeral
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cwebber2 q+
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Zakim sees tantek, cwebber on the speaker queue
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bengo Arnaud: Is anything like this in requirements?
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bengo Arnaud that would necessitate 'expires'
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tantek your signature was eaten by a grue
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bengo cwebber2 idk but I've wanted to bring this up since Boston
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bengo Arnaud ok just wanted to clarify
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eprodrom q-
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Zakim sees tantek, cwebber on the speaker queue
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bengo jasnell: Worth noting this isn't first time
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bengo jasnell: last time we said to pump
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cwebber2 q-
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Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
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sandro q+
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Zakim sees tantek, sandro on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 q+ for suggestion of ephemeral on create
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Zakim sees tantek, sandro, cwebber on the speaker queue
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bengo jasnell: long standing discussion but only recently do prominent silos impl
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Arnaud ack tantek
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Zakim tantek, you wanted to note that transient *content* (part of a post) is a use-case seen more than just "whole posts", from IndieWeb research:
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Zakim ... https://indiewebcamp.com/expiring_content
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Zakim sees sandro, cwebber on the speaker queue
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bengo tantek: even if federation can't validate transient things, may still be useful
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bengo tantek like parts of post could expire even if not full post
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cwebber2 reminding myself: can only come from same origin
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bengo tantek: In favor of dropping it
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wseltzer ack sand
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Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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Arnaud ack sandro
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Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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jasnell q+
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Zakim sees cwebber, jasnell on the speaker queue
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bengo sandro: It's complicated, i get it. But so is rest of vocab. So what's the harm of putting it in
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bengo q+
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Zakim sees cwebber, jasnell, bengo on the speaker queue
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bengo sandro: gives us a first best effort at it if we let 'expires' in
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bengo sandro whats the harm?
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bengo sandro: only harm is if it people interpret as more than it does
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bengo tantek: there is harm with every addition
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Arnaud ack cwebber
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Zakim cwebber, you wanted to discuss suggestion of ephemeral on create
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Zakim sees jasnell, bengo on the speaker queue
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bengo sandro it's hard to build a system wihtout this
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bengo cwebber2: There may be a way of doing this without time-based expiration.
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bengo cwebber2: In IMing and Game stuff, you don't need a log of it all anyway. The server can just relay and give a UUID
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bengo cwebber2: Could just have ephemeral flag instead of expiry date
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bengo q-
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Zakim sees jasnell on the speaker queue
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bengo 'DNT'
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bengo cwebber2 there wouldn't be a permanent url
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bengo cwebber2 only for same-origin
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Arnaud ack jasnell
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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bengo jasnell we can do something like that already
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azaroth bengo - for the same person talking, you can put ... instead of their name for second and subsequent lines
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rhiaro bengo you're dropping colons :)
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azaroth e.g. azaroth: Says something \n ... and then says something else
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wseltzer ENOMORECOFFEE
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bengo jasnell we have other activities in core like Invite and Offer that have a lifecycle
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bengo ... there are alreayd use cases for this
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rhiaro bengo colons are crucial for minutes being parsed properly
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cwebber2 w+
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azaroth wseltzer GET coffee => 404 :( :(
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cwebber2 q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 q+
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Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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bengo jasnell: Offer may be at risk, but this could still be useful for Invite
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sandro q+
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Zakim sees cwebber, sandro on the speaker queue
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bengo jasnell: Not arguing for. Just sayign we can
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bengo jasnell: but if we add, should mark at risk
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cwebber2 q-
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Zakim sees sandro on the speaker queue
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bengo jasnell: Then in CR if it's not going to work out, we drop
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bengo Arnaud: that's reasonable way of moving forward. Draws attention from others
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Arnaud ack cwebber
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Zakim sees sandro on the speaker queue
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bengo cwebber2: At risk is good
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Arnaud ack sandro
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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bengo sandro: I'm now more in favor of not having it
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bengo sandro: we need to solidify extensinos so it doesnt matter if in core
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bengo jasnell: Let's not decide to accept/reject yet. And see if there's a better solution
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bengo (consensus)
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bengo jasnell: we should consider a few more
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bengo jasnell: Is there anything else bad in spec to be forwards compatible? e.g. lists of lists
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bengo https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/271
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bengo sandro: if they upgrade JSON-LD they'll have to be back compat anyway
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bengo jasnell: all open proposals are closed
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bengo jasnell: oops one more abuot lifecycles
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rhiaro list all the things
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Loqi http://meme.loqi.me/4eXd_Q8B.jpg
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bengo sandro: we should make a community group that maintains a website that maintains all the terms/verbs/words
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bengo sandro: Thing description status of that thing
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bengo Arnaud: how about wiki page?
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bengo jasnell: start as wiki, if difficult, then we can adjust and see if CG is necessary
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bengo sandro: CG needed (even if trivial) because it gets us a wiki
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bengo tantek: siloed wikis are W3 antipattern
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bengo sandro: but they can give out namespaces
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bengo sandro: and that helps with extensions using a w3 namespace
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bengo tantek: What's wrong with custom elements convention of hyphens
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bengo sandro: Because that doesn't help with collissions
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bengo cwebber2: And we want JSON-LD expansion to work
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azaroth q+
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Zakim sees azaroth on the speaker queue
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bengo tantek: ostensibly cusom elements have solved this
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wseltzer q+
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Zakim sees azaroth, wseltzer on the speaker queue
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bengo sandro: no x-header (??) are the real solution
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azaroth q-
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Zakim sees wseltzer on the speaker queue
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bengo sandro: x-headers are widely acked as mistake i HTTP
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bengo sandro: And in this case we have an easier solution than that
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bengo sandro: (w3 namespace for extensions)
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Arnaud ack wseltzer
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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bengo wseltzer: prefixes are bad pattern
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bengo tantek: only for some things
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cwebber2 q+
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Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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bengo wseltzer: because they require revision later once the old prefix is standardized
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bengo tantek: As a trivial counterexample, border-radius in CSS
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Arnaud ack cwebber
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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bengo cwebber2: big db of past accrued activities would be really hard to re-name properties
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azaroth +1 to cwebber2
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bengo cwebber2: We should avoid that if possible
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bengo cwebber2: CG is reaosnable solution
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bengo sandro: Hard for even more reasons
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bengo eprodrom: One big apps to is schema at read
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bengo eprodrom: and avoid db migrations
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bengo eprodrom: *what big apps do
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bengo sandro: so whats wrong with CG?
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bengo jasnell: just whether the process overhead is worth it
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bengo sandro: Process overhead vs extension overhead
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bengo Arnaud: Who's signing up to create CG?
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sandro q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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bengo cwebber2: could just have wiki page of extensions with their own ns
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bengo ... not curated by official group but at least the activities are preserving their contents
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Arnaud s/create CG/do the reviews of proposed additions/
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bengo jasnell: Other way of not having it be a WG thing is to make a github project managing this
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bengo jasnell: PRs/issues accepted
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bengo jasnell: this doesn't need w3 tamp
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bengo cwebber2: I'm cool with that
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bengo sandro: CG overhead is 10min
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bengo sandro: and github is compatible with that
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bengo jasnell: as long as overhead isn't too much and folks are willing to participate
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bengo sandro: same people as adminning a github repo
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bengo Arnaud: that's always the challenge. open wiki is open toa bbusers. Control requires personhours/effort
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bengo sandro: Should we let them use main namespace
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bengo bengo: no
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cwebber2 AS2 Pro namespace, I'm telling you!
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bengo jasnell: that could cause problems for implementations that build that into their namespace
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bengo jasnell: something can be in namespace without bieng in jsonld context
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bengo sandro: namespace just means they use it as imaginary prefix
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bengo jasnell: idk...
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bengo sandro: Let's analyze options later
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bengo Arnaud: What should we do?
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bengo eprodrom: Is this last one?
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bengo Arnaud: We said yesterday we would give folks two weeks to bring up issues so we have to wait now anyway
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bengo sandro: A more conventional way to do this would be to ask editor when they would like next review to happen
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bengo sandro: then 1 week or so before next phase
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bengo tantek: publishing moratorium coming soon
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bengo tantek: soon enough that changes just made are of sufficient enough value that we ought to publish WD with jasnell changes by... friday
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bengo sandro: And then aim to go to CR by early Jan
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wseltzer [W3C publications moratorium 21 Dec-1 Jan]
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bengo tantek: yeah issue velocity has dropped but if it picks back up we wont go to CR
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bengo tantek: it's great there is renewed interest and activity
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bengo jasnell: seems reasonable
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bengo jasnell: remaining issues are mostly editorial
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bengo jasnell: I think we're done
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tantek PROPOSED: publish a new WD of AS2 drafts as of / by Friday.
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azaroth +1
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jasnell +1
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bengo +1
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wilkie +1
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cwebber2 +1
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rhiaro +1
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eprodrom +1
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kevinmarks_ +1
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sandro +1
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bengo Arnaud: Let's shift gears
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wseltzer RESOLVED: publish a new WD of AS2 drafts as of / by Friday.
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bengo 15m break
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wseltzer rrsagent, draft minutes
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RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/12/02-social-minutes.html wseltzer
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tsyesika is going to bed, it's late here in stockholm.
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kevinmarks_ bye jessica
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wseltzer rrsagent, make logs public
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RRSAgent I have made the request, wseltzer
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wseltzer rrsagent, draft minutes
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RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/12/02-social-minutes.html wseltzer
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bengo eprodrom: next up, resolve more issues in api and federatio protocl. next F2F schedule
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kevinmarks_ did we lose post type?
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bengo just made https://github.com/gobengo/as2-validate
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eprodrom reconvene at 3:45
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tantek kevinmarks: yes I reliquished my time and deferred to resolving AS2 Issues instead.
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wseltzer i|as I already have wget copies|Topic: LUNCH
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wseltzer rrsagent, draft minutes
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RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/12/02-social-minutes.html wseltzer
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snarfed bengo: cool! any idea how you expect it to differ from https://github.com/jasnell/activitystreams.validator , https://github.com/apparentlymart/activity-streams-tester , https://github.com/w3c-social/as2test , etc?
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bengo it depends on the former
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bengo and james told me to keep as separate
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bengo I just wanted a cli
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snarfed ah ok
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bengo so i could
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bengo (curl "https://gist.githubusercontent.com/gobengo/aef6d083290930e25025/raw/02bdf242d4d39000efdb4849db414bad85ec3463/indieweb-social.json" | node index.js ) && echo "perfect"
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bengo ... it is not perfect
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snarfed lol
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bengo sorry, not `node index`, `as2-validate`
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bengo which you can now `npm install -g as2-validate`
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Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-12-01]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=87070&oldid=87069
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aaronpk scribenick: aaronpk
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wseltzer Topic: Open Issues for other drafts than AS2
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aaronpk eprodrom: let's talk about next f2f first then fill the rest of the time with issues
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aaronpk tantek: when I put that there it was an umbrella for peopel to put specific issues, but if nobody has a specific issue then that becomes a no-op
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aaronpk eprodrom: then what makes sense is to do the f2f planning, for people to take part of that time to identify issues they want to talk about, then we can have people propose them as they come up
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aaronpk rhiaro: we need to resolve something about github
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aaronpk eprodrom: okay yes
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aaronpk tantek: and i just added somethign about post-type-discovery
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aaronpk eprodrom: f2f, admin items, PTD, then extra issues
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aaronpk TOPIC: Next Face-to-Face meeting
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aaronpk sandro: MIT in the spring?
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tantek q+ re: productivity at f2fs
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Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
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aaronpk eprodrom: MIT in mid-march would be 4 months
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rhiaro q+
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Zakim sees tantek, rhiaro on the speaker queue
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aaronpk sandro: spring break is march 21-ish
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eprodrom q?
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Zakim sees tantek, rhiaro on the speaker queue
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aaronpk ... i'm traveling and stuff so after march 28th is better
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rhiaro q-
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Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
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aaronpk cwebber2: libre planet 2016 won't fit then (march 19-20)
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aaronpk ... best for me would be after the stripe open source retreat
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wseltzer and there's a W3C Advisory Committee meeting March 20-22
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aaronpk ... ideally end of april or beginning of may
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tantek wseltzer indeed - hence I'd prefer something near that
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
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rhiaro libreplanet 19-20 March
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eprodrom q?
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Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
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aaronpk tantek: i wanted to make the observation that w'eve been tremendously productive at f2f, more than at telcons, which is more than irc/github, more than email
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eprodrom ack tantek
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Zakim tantek, you wanted to discuss productivity at f2fs
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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aaronpk ... i feel like the time cost of the f2f pays off in the productivity and group morale that comes out of these f2f
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aaronpk ... so i would advocate that we consider having 3 or 4 in 2016
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aaronpk ... it's our last year of our charter and we'll be furiously trying to get through a lot
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aaronpk sandro: does that suggest doing it earlier like february?
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aaronpk tantek: early march, then another one in june maybe
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aaronpk ... another data point is TPAC next year is mid september
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aaronpk ... in Lisbon
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cwebber2 so the end of the stripe open source retreat is april 15 2016
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cwebber2 right after would also work for me
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aaronpk ... i'm going to be going there already, anyone else?
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aaronpk ... september 19-23