#social 2015-12-02

2015-12-02 UTC
#
azaroth
... if you don't know anything about micropub and you get a request you could use PTD to decide what to do with the request, per Amy
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eprodrom
ack kevinmarks
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Zakim
sees eprodrom, tantek on the speaker queue
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azaroth
eprodrom: Good principle to follow
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eprodrom
ack eprodrom
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Zakim
sees tantek on the speaker queue
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azaroth
kevinmarks: Sense of separation here. We are using micropub to route things between systems
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azaroth
... one example is ??? that uses instagram and micropub
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Zakim
sees tantek, cwebber on the speaker queue
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rhiaro
s/???/ownyourgram
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azaroth
another example is silo.pub that maps from MF to various things
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azaroth
... it wraps blog in an envelope to post to blogger, or finds the image to send to flickr
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azaroth
... mostly individual things we've built
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azaroth
... lots of targeted protocols that are moving together, whereas you have a bigger suite
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azaroth
... partly where the mappings get odd
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eprodrom
q?
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Zakim
sees tantek, cwebber on the speaker queue
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azaroth
Tantek: different kind of answer. What drove the different protocols. WebMention happened first.
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eprodrom
ack tantek
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Zakim
tantek, you wanted to note why webmention (federation) and micropub (API) are distinct and separate (different trust pre-requisites, user models, canonical data).
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Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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kevinmarks
azaroth: ownyourgram.com you sign into instagram and it posts your photos to your own site
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azaroth
... different user model between federation and users.
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azaroth
... Conceptually defend the distinction. Federation standpoint it's FYI. THe receiver is not required to do anything on any timescale
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azaroth
... other than how you validate it. After that there's suggested things you can do. If it has X content, then it's a comment and you should copy it to your post as a reply
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azaroth
... but the ultimate decision of action is on the receiever. It has its own agency
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azaroth
... all the boundaries for federation are corssed
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azaroth
... for an API scenario, both ends are under the control of the same user
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azaroth
... so the user issues a command to create something, then the server MUST create it
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azaroth
... it's a hard requirement, so very different from auth and user agency perspective, permissions, trust, number of actors etc.
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Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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azaroth
... don't do auth for federation, you just send it
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azaroth
... Maybe wrong with drawing the difference, but lots of differences?
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azaroth
sandro: Clear to me
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azaroth
tantek: User 1 vs user 2, rather than one user and thing 1 vs thing 2
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azaroth
cwebber2: Same technical design could do both
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azaroth
... webmention is cool in that it's very minimal
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azaroth
tantek: a different contract
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azaroth
cwebber2: You could emulate in activity pump, nice that it doesn't require a lot of work
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azaroth
... if I run my own pump io server, I know that I'm posting to my thing. The same design and serialization.
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azaroth
... little distinction between what is a client and a server
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Zakim
sees cwebber, rhiaro on the speaker queue
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azaroth
... don't always control the server. Might decide that you're a spammer even if you have an account, so might still filter
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azaroth
... if I set up my own server, better not do that to myself
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azaroth
... same concepts could be accomplished with same tech, more usable in the long run
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azaroth
... even with lack of distinction, it's not as big a division as you might thing
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azaroth
think
eprodrom_ joined the channel
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azaroth
rhiaro: my micropub endpoint when it receives a post sends a webmention
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azaroth
... webmention and mf completely separate so no requirement but that's how I hooked it up
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azaroth
... with activity pump you must do it
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azaroth
cwebber2: The receiving server might reject it
bblfish and bblfish_ joined the channel
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azaroth
... what happens if you do mpub post to a third party? Do you have to "own" the micropub endpoint?
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azaroth
tantek: You have to be oauthed up
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azaroth
... but not in webmention
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azaroth
... which is essential for lightweight federation
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kevinmarks
try silo.pub with twitter
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azaroth
cwebber2: Right not saying it's not useful, but that it would also be useful if mpub also did federation
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azaroth
aaronpk: another difference
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azaroth
... mpub as a way to create content, the content is part of the request
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azaroth
... the bearer token is prearranged
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azaroth
... webmention is only by reference, content is not in the request
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azaroth
... don't say here's my photo etc
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Zakim
sees cwebber, rhiaro, kevinmarks on the speaker queue
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Zakim
sees cwebber, kevinmarks on the speaker queue
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azaroth
... that would be trackback, and garbage because it's unauthenticated
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azaroth
... only way to send content is if it's authenticated
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azaroth
cwebber2: or go back and verify it, but then you might as well not send it
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azaroth
eprodrom: activity pump does two legged oauth
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azaroth
... so server to server
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azaroth
aaronpk: for mpub there's no URL until the request is handled
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azaroth
... if you used the same protocol for webmentions, you're delivering the contents of the post
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azaroth
... but unless you authenticate there's no way to trust it
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azaroth
... and they probably want to verify it anyway
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azaroth
... so just send the url
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azaroth
... so it's just what we have now :)
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azaroth
sandro: You might auth once every long period of time?
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azaroth
eprodrom: So because of pingback style of webmention, there's something here you might be interested in, it doesn't make sense to use the same interaction
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azaroth
... if it was PuSH service, ala activity pump, it would make sense?
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azaroth
aaronpk: Interesting. Pretty sure most PUSH systems dont' send the contents in the broadcast
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azaroth
... that would look more like micropub
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azaroth
... if PuSH has too many limitations, then may it's just micropub and that's where it fits in
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eprodrom
q?
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Zakim
sees cwebber, kevinmarks on the speaker queue
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azaroth
... not the same use case as micropub
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azaroth
cwebber2: suggesting that it's easy to drop into an existing blog which is hard with activity pump
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Zakim
sees cwebber, kevinmarks on the speaker queue
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tantek
q+ to note some brainstorming attempts to do site-to-site micropub
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Zakim
sees cwebber, kevinmarks, tantek on the speaker queue
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azaroth
aaronpk: extending to also handle distribution of content for subscribers is different from webmention
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eprodrom
ack cwebber
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Zakim
sees kevinmarks, tantek on the speaker queue
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azaroth
cwebber2: spec is well written. Main concern is that it doesn't talk about specific silos
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azaroth
aaronpk: Also anchors it in time
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azaroth
tantek: +1 :)
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eprodrom
q?
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Zakim
sees kevinmarks, tantek on the speaker queue
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eprodrom
ack kevinmarks
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Zakim
sees tantek on the speaker queue
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azaroth
s/it doesn't/it shouldn't/
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azaroth
kevinmarks: presumption for sending stuff out is that it's replication
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azaroth
... might be a way to couple the two together
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eprodrom
q?
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Zakim
sees tantek on the speaker queue
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eprodrom
ack tantek
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Zakim
tantek, you wanted to note some brainstorming attempts to do site-to-site micropub
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
azaroth
tantek: to argue against myself ... we have had some experiments and one production use of webmention like an api and webm for federation
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azaroth
... sending a copy somewhere is like federation, for federation-hostile people
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azaroth
... with webmention we have bridgy, that built a protocol for publishing on top of it
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azaroth
... it acts like micropub in a way
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azaroth
... if you send a particular mention to one place it'll publish content to another server
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azaroth
... take this specific action that is triggered by a webmention
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azaroth
... brainstorming on server to server, with distinct users
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azaroth
... didnt' scale well. If you're one someone's website and they have a comment box, you want it to post to YOUR site not just their site
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azaroth
... so it should act like a micropub client and then use webmention to get it back
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cwebber2
eprodrom: I'm staying shut up but you should mention what pump.io does here ;)
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azaroth
... if you auth in ... no you might not want to give out arbitrary permissions
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azaroth
... so walked down the path a bit and it didn't seem like a good trust design
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azaroth
kevinmarks: have web actions via client side voodoo
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azaroth
tantek: without auth
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azaroth
kevinmarks: looks like it's going to one site, actually to others
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bengo
q?
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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azaroth
tantek: federation of all the little buttons on posts like like, reply, bookmark, etc. a way to have sites take actions to a different site
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azaroth
... users configure their client to handle them
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azaroth
... built a shim with web components
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azaroth
... a protocol handler that makes it work
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azaroth
... your site will take over the functionality of those buttons on the remote site
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azaroth
... UI federation? not sure how we conceptually captured it
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azaroth
kevinmarks: The example of it working is woodwind
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azaroth
tantek: with micropub?
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azaroth
kevinmarks: with all of them
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azaroth
tantek: woodwind is a reader that you sign into with your own domain and it tracks what you're reading
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kevinmarks
woodwind is reader.kylewm.com
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azaroth
... if your own site supports micropub you can sign in there and it posts to your site
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azaroth
... if you don't, it can fall back to other options
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bengo
q+ to ask about separation of request semantics and resource representation
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Zakim
sees bengo on the speaker queue
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eprodrom
q?
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Zakim
sees bengo on the speaker queue
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eprodrom
ack bengo
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Zakim
bengo, you wanted to ask about separation of request semantics and resource representation
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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azaroth
bengo: Maybe controversial, but keeping the object representation separate from what to do with the object. Curious why edit this or post this or delete this is in the body, rather than the method?
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Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
to respond
#
azaroth
aaronpk: Reason is to allow delegation of functionality, rpc-style.
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azaroth
... where you might have a static website other than GET, but you can delegate to some other endpoint
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azaroth
... but you can't delete that endpoint
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azaroth
... the objects don't live under the micropub endpoint
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azaroth
... thus the RPC style
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azaroth
... Could say that the endpoint could delete based on a query string, but seems contrived for no particular reason
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azaroth
eprodrom: to answer that for other things... for activity pump... pump.io does do that. One way to follow someone is to post your id to their following list
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azaroth
... you add yourself to their followers
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azaroth
... or deleting an object directly
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azaroth
... managing some of the life cycle of the social graph works that way.
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azaroth
... Some things are harder to do like that. If I like something, posting to a list of likers might make sense
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azaroth
bengo: Unliking a thing seems either deleting a like resource, or posting an unlike, could try different ways until something works
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azaroth
... but could be just one way
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azaroth
eprodrom: we would concentrate on the one way of using AS as written
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azaroth
... always been a logging style format we repurpose as a command langage
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rhiaro
"It's not the worst" ;)
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azaroth
... how that happened. Interesting to reconsider purely from a REST mechanism without a command language
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azaroth
bengo: having it all in the message is useful for websockets based things too not inherently bad, might just hear that's not restful over and over again
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azaroth
eprodrom: expectation has been there'd be a stream of activities, natural to think in atompub style of posting an activity to the feed
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eprodrom
q?
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Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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eprodrom
ack cwebber
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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azaroth
cwebber2: couple of CRUD activities, but also others like join ... no HTTP verb
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azaroth
eprodrom: COuld have a members resource and posting an ID to it
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azaroth
cwebber2: I think this group resolved ... should we use all these verbs...everyone was using the AS verbs not HTTP methods
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azaroth
... so do AS first
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eprodrom
q?
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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azaroth
tantek: I recall that as well. Don't want to have the argument again :)
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azaroth
eprodrom: wrap up with micropub? anthing to discuss in next 10 minutes?
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azaroth
cwebber2: ready to go to ED?
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azaroth
... I think we should propose it?
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cwebber2
PROPOSED: Move MicroPub to Editor's Draft status
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eprodrom
+1
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azaroth
+0
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bengo
+0
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azaroth
jasnell, et al: Make it explicit regarding moving to WD in the status section
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eprodrom
RESOLVED: Move MicroPub to Editor's Draft status
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cwebber2
whoooooo
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azaroth
eprodrom: Resolved :)
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azaroth
... have 90 minutes left, one more item on agenda
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aaronpk
jasnell, what was your specific wording?
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azaroth
... everyone in late afternoon doldrums. Dinner at 7.
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azaroth
... hopefully group photo will not take half an hour
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azaroth
tantek: 7th floor with bay bridge
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azaroth
[temporarily adjourn]
jasnell, azaroth, kevinmarks2, bengo and tantek joined the channel
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aaronpk
scribenick: aaronpk
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aaronpk
TOPIC: ActivityPump
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aaronpk
cwebber2: talking about bringing activitypump to editor's draft
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aaronpk
... i'm assuming everyone's familiar with it by now. sandro said before basically AP is ActivityStreams in API form
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aaronpk
... so, in that sense, if there's things peopel want to talk about specifically i'm happy to talk about them
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aaronpk
... i have a few things i'd love to go over while we have people her
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aaronpk
... but it might be more useful to have people who are not me say things
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azaroth
q+ to say it looked very good :D
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Zakim
sees azaroth on the speaker queue
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Zakim
sees azaroth on the speaker queue
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aaronpk
... github is being used for issue tracking
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aaronpk
sandro: can you paste the link to that?
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azaroth
ack azaroth
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Zakim
azaroth, you wanted to say it looked very good :D
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
eprodrom joined the channel
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eprodrom
q?
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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aaronpk
azaroth: looked really good to me
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bengo
q+
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Zakim
sees bengo on the speaker queue
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aaronpk
tantek: one request is to link to the issues from the document header
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aaronpk
cwebber2: sure i'll make an issue for that right now
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aaronpk
... so there are issues on it right now but i don't know if any of these are blockers to take this to editor's draft and if there ar ei'm happy to talk about them
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aaronpk
... i think activitypump is probably unsurprising right now
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eprodrom
q+
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Zakim
sees bengo, eprodrom on the speaker queue
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aaronpk
... the first question is is there anything specific someone wants to raise in person or should i start
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eprodrom
ack bengo
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Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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aaronpk
bengo: i think it's generally pleasant to read. i filed a bunch of issues. i think that the general part that's hard to wrap my head around is how to initiate crud operations around activities
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aaronpk
... would be good to have more specific error responses defined
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aaronpk
... if i say update facebook.com what should happen? 401? or maybe I did actually change whatever that was and am trying to record it
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aaronpk
... i'm having a hard time rationalizing triggering activities and recording activities in the same outbox
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aaronpk
... one way of resolving it is to have different endpoints for triggering activities vs recording them
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aaronpk
eprodrom: we were talking about this during the break. maybe having CRUD processes happen through posting and updating the object itself and how that would work
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Zakim
sees eprodrom, cwebber on the speaker queue
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aaronpk
... you'd keep a collection of everything you publish, once you hav ea permalink for hte thing you can read/update/delete really easily
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aaronpk
.. would you maintain one single feed/collection of everything you publish? would you keep different collections by type?
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aaronpk
... one collection of videos, of images, of text, or does it not matter?
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Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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tantek
q+ to ask if the intent is to keep ActivityPump use of terms like "displayName" in sync with AS2 changes e.g. displayName->name ?
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Zakim
sees eprodrom, tantek on the speaker queue
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aaronpk
... the meechanism we use is also how opensocial does activities
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Zakim
sees eprodrom, tantek, cwebber on the speaker queue
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aaronpk
... most of the crud mechanism was handled by the rest of the opensocial api
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aaronpk
... it would be an interesting exercise, chris, if we were to think about that as our mechanism for crudding stuff that lives on the server
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aaronpk
cwebber2: i'm not sure what...
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aaronpk
eprodrom: having a collection/feed of "stuff evan published", evan's outbox of stuff he made, not activities, but text, videos, etc
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aaronpk
... and so the primary way you'd create things is to post to that feed and manage it that way instead of using activitystreams as a command language for crud
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aaronpk
cwebber2: i think that sounds mostly fine, but only create should be replaced by that
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aaronpk
... kind of what james was saying, when you are distributing it to everyone else you still wrap it in a create, but for creating it initially yes
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aaronpk
... but for updating and deleting using the existing verbs
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aaronpk
eprodrom: right now we have get put and delete on objects which should do ...
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aaronpk
cwebber2: we talked about removing those http verbs an hour ago
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aaronpk
... i'm still referencing owen's thing from a long time ago
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tantek
did find the easteregg to his site ;)
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aaronpk
... if the initial thing you're creating isn't wrapped in a create it simplifies things
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eprodrom
B-)
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aaronpk
... we should test it in an implementation
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aaronpk
sandro: doesn't delete have the same thing?
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aaronpk
cwebber2: you use post for everything, but if you're creating something you just put the object somewhere
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aaronpk
sandro: what about the other crud operations?
bblfish joined the channel
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aaronpk
cwebber2: update and delete are pure side effect and then become a log
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aaronpk
... you're creating the object in your database that is the log, but you're only putting it there as the side effect
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aaronpk
eprodrom: i don't like making it an exclusive thing
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aaronpk
... i don't like posting something to a feed that then changes in the feed
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aaronpk
... i expect if i post something i don't want it to change
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aaronpk
... even though i had posted the object it would then come back wrapped in a create
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aaronpk
... i'm saying i post an object to the feed and i see a bunch of activities, what happened to the object? oh its actually a property of one of the activities
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aaronpk
... i think if you post an object to a feed then it should come back in the feed
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aaronpk
cwebber2: i understand in principle
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aaronpk
... it's also not the biggest detail in the world if we don't do this
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Zakim
sees eprodrom, tantek, cwebber on the speaker queue
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aaronpk
... it doesn't change things fundamentally. i can live with whatever
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eprodrom
ack eprodrom
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Zakim
sees tantek, cwebber on the speaker queue
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aaronpk
sorry didn't catch the gist of what bengo was saying
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aaronpk
cwebber2: amy you were saying if we moved activitystreams to a more content distribution then that would bring it closer to micropub
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tantek
bengo - could you restate your concern?
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aaronpk
sandro: this seems like a place where activitypump is a complete coin flip between using http verbs or not
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bengo
Does GET /outbox mean
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bengo
List the things I triggered to create their side effect?
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bengo
Or List the things I've done (feed)
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bengo
I don't think it can be both
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bengo
s/thing/understand how
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aaronpk
cwebber2: micropub is closer to what we're doing, where if create is not wrapped in a thing it just makes it
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aaronpk
sandro: let me rephrase. it often seems like the entire industry is in love with restful apis. i don't know why personally.
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aaronpk
tantek: because the term is ambuguous
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aaronpk
sandro: specifically with HTTP PATCH to update and that is a thing that's really popular
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aaronpk
... evan you did that survey across a bunch of apis
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aaronpk
... i don't know why that's so popular, and i hesitate to go in a different direction
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aaronpk
cwebber2: there ar e3 things being proposed here
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aaronpk
... activitystreams - everything is wrapped in an activity
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aaronpk
... REST - you use http verbs
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aaronpk
... the current indieweb style - closer to what owen suggested, don't wrap create in an activity
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bengo
I can weigh in as to why command semantics outside of request body is useful (caching intermediaries like varnish can't easily understand semantics)
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aaronpk
evanpro: i don't understand what the advantage is
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aaronpk
cwebber2: i'm not sold on either of these but
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aaronpk
... two reasons. one is the ACL thing, when you post the initial thing you attach the ACL to the initial object
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aaronpk
eprodrom: you can do that right now
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kevinmarks
q+ to state issues with over-literal REST CRUD
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Zakim
sees tantek, cwebber, kevinmarks on the speaker queue
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aaronpk
lost track of that whole thread
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aaronpk
cwebber2: the second is trying to move towards a more content-centric version of things
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aaronpk
eprodrom: which is what i was saying, have a feed of content things
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aaronpk
cwebber2: ironically, if we end up doing what i suggested, the activity stream of what other people are reading is activity centric but the client-server thing is content centric
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aaronpk
... but now we have to move to a model where anything that doesn't have a side effect we wrap in a create
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aaronpk
... it's a shift in the complexity, but we have these separate things and wehave to make a decision
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aaronpk
eprodrom: we don't have to make a decision right now, we can mark it as an issue
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Zakim
sees tantek, cwebber, kevinmarks on the speaker queue
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bengo
q+ to request answer to my orig question "What happens if I POST /outbox update facebook.com"?
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Zakim
sees tantek, cwebber, kevinmarks, bengo on the speaker queue
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aaronpk
cwebber2: i'm adding a note to my previous todo that evan hates it and we should discuss
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eprodrom
ack tantek
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Zakim
tantek, you wanted to ask if the intent is to keep ActivityPump use of terms like "displayName" in sync with AS2 changes e.g. displayName->name ?
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Zakim
sees cwebber, kevinmarks, bengo on the speaker queue
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Zakim
sees kevinmarks, bengo on the speaker queue
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aaronpk
tantek: is your intent in AP to keep terminology in sync with activitystreams? so do the displayName -> name change?
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aaronpk
cwebber2: yes because it's just the API version of activitystreams
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eprodrom
q?
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Zakim
sees kevinmarks, bengo on the speaker queue
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eprodrom
ack kevinmarks
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Zakim
kevinmarks, you wanted to state issues with over-literal REST CRUD
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Zakim
sees bengo on the speaker queue
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aaronpk
... 'whatever man just go with the flow of activity streams'
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aaronpk
kevinmarks: following sandro's point about rest and crud. the issue is that the crud assumption is you are the owner of the resource completely
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aaronpk
... when people go to the contacts app in their phone and see a bunch of emails they delete them and then wonder why gmail autocomplete doesn't work
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aaronpk
tantek: there's an additional semantic that the http verbs didn't capture
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aaronpk
cwebber2: we aren't planning on using http verbs anyway
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eprodrom
q?
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Zakim
sees bengo on the speaker queue
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Zakim
sees bengo, cwebber on the speaker queue
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eprodrom
ack bengo
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Zakim
bengo, you wanted to request answer to my orig question "What happens if I POST /outbox update facebook.com"?
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Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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sandro
q+ to ask a trivial question about section 9
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Zakim
sees cwebber, sandro on the speaker queue
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aaronpk
tantek: a key design feature of using POST for everything was that you can exercise the whole protocol via a simple HTML form
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aaronpk
... which is easier than figuring out procedural stuff
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eprodrom
q?
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Zakim
sees cwebber, sandro on the speaker queue
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aaronpk
bengo: i still think it's unclear, if we're triggering crud operations, what happens if i put an update activity where the object is facebook.com in my outbox? what should I expect?
#
aaronpk
cwebber2: so you're saying we should document responses when you do something screwy?
#
aaronpk
eprodrom: i think pump.io silently accepts as long as it's not an object in its own domain
#
aaronpk
bengo: does outbox mean always do this thing if you can?
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eprodrom
q?
#
Zakim
sees cwebber, sandro on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
eprodrom: that's a tricky part of it, once things are outside the server's control to what extent does it accept things or say "you can't update facebook.com" or does it just accept it
#
aaronpk
sandro: your feed can say "you became president, you deleted facebook, etc"
#
aaronpk
bengo: i would recommend not accepting it if it's a command that didn't work
#
aaronpk
eprodrom: i think that makes the most sense, if this is a thing you're going to execute then try to execute and give back an answer. if it's something you don't understand because you can't do it, then assume the user is talking about something that happened somewhere else.
#
aaronpk
sandro: what about adding a flag that says who is expected to perform the action
azaroth_ joined the channel
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aaronpk
bengo: now that i'm talking about it out loud that may not even be necessary.
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aaronpk
cwebber2: i think we just need to document how side effects work more
#
bengo
To record your own activities, post to your /inbox
#
aaronpk
.. activitypump has strong opinions about what to do about side effects
#
eprodrom
q?
#
Zakim
sees cwebber, sandro on the speaker queue
#
eprodrom
ack cwebber
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Zakim
sees sandro on the speaker queue
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
cwebber2: i have things i want to talk about with people in the room
#
aaronpk
... i'm going to start with things least likely to explode
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eprodrom
ack sandro
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
sandro: section 9 includes things about binary data but then talks about reply objects
#
aaronpk
cwebber2: that looks like it's mis structured
#
aaronpk
cwebber2: okay i don't think that any of these things are blockers on hitting editor's draft
#
aaronpk
.. but there are some things that are underspecified in activitystreams or other things
#
aaronpk
... the first is activitypump, discovery and profile stuff
#
aaronpk
... suggests something that i don't think anyone suggests implementers to do
#
aaronpk
... in the paris meeting i threw in something stupid.
#
aaronpk
... previously pump.io did webfinger-type things. it seems like with the agreement with follow-your-nose, then at the very least webfinger-like things will be handled in a follow-your-nose way
#
aaronpk
... so what are we going to do
#
bengo
define inbox, outbox, feed as linkRelations
#
tantek
wheeeee identity!
#
bengo
get html, link response header, webfinger support for free
#
aaronpk
eprodrom: that's a good question. one thing we could do is define ... how many endpoints do we have for a user? 4-5?
#
aaronpk
cwebber2: you can get the ednpoints for a user once you have their profile
#
rhiaro
rel=inbox ~ rel=webmention, rel=outbox ~ rel=micropub ... maybe??
#
aaronpk
eprodrom: there are 4-5? followers, following, inbox, outbox? we could define link relations for all of those
#
bengo
profile == link rel me?
#
tantek
rhiaro, I'd suggest clustering them with a prefix, like ap-outbox ap-inbox etc.
#
aaronpk
... you could use whatever discovery mechanism you wanted, links, rels on a elements, or webfinger, or http headers, or...
#
azaroth_
q+ to express concern :)
#
Zakim
sees azaroth_ on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
... that might be an easy way to punt on this
#
tantek
whereas rel values normally express links to *user* semantics
#
tantek
like a user's inbox
#
aaronpk
azaroth_: that seems like a lot of link rels to register
#
tantek
like a URL a browser could load and display, not an API endpoint
#
aaronpk
cwebber2: another suggestion, do a follow your nose thing that takes you to a json document that describes your profile
#
aaronpk
... what do peopel feel about that?
#
aaronpk
eprodrom: that seems fine
#
aaronpk
azaroth_: (thumbsup)
#
kevinmarks
things have lots of endpoints already
#
azaroth_
+1 to linking to a profile, not linking to potentially many endpoints
#
aaronpk
cwebber2: i shouldn't say JSONLD, i should say activitystreams with implied context
#
aaronpk
tantek: it sounds like you have an issue defined.
#
aaronpk
cwebber2: okay i'll file an issue on this and cc evan
#
kevinmarks
linking to many endpoints is common
#
bengo
q+
#
Zakim
sees azaroth_, bengo on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
eprodrom: okay i like that a lot better
#
kevinmarks
try looking at any wordpress site
#
eprodrom
q?
#
Zakim
sees azaroth_, bengo on the speaker queue
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azaroth
q-
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Zakim
sees azaroth_, bengo on the speaker queue
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Zakim
sees azaroth_, bengo, cwebber on the speaker queue
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eprodrom
ack azaroth_
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Zakim
azaroth_, you wanted to express concern :)
#
Zakim
sees bengo, cwebber on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
tantek: if you're going to define a suite of link rels, then prefix them with ap- or something so that you don't conflict
#
aaronpk
cwebber2: maybe ap-profile or something?
#
aaronpk
eprodrom: i'll also open an issue, i'm not sure discovery is part of the API document
#
aaronpk
... for example if i was twitter and implementing activitypump, you wouldn't have to discover it
#
aaronpk
cwebber2: along with amy's idea of implementation levels could this be a thing that is an optional implementation level
#
eprodrom
q?
#
Zakim
sees bengo, cwebber on the speaker queue
#
kevinmarks
on a wordpress blog I see pingback, alternate, EditURI and https://api.w.org/ as rels
#
aaronpk
eprodrom: yeah that's fine
#
eprodrom
ack bengo
#
Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
bengo: in the times where it says go to a uri and it returns a json document. but if you send it an accept header with HTML only then it shouldn't be required to return JSON. leave room in the spec for content negotiation.
#
eprodrom
q?
#
Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
#
eprodrom
ack cwebber
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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aaronpk
cwebber2: authentication
#
bengo
q+
#
Zakim
sees bengo on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
... this group has said it's not in scope, but by necessity is part of the specs. so far micropub and activitypump put OAuth 2 in the spec.
#
aaronpk
tantek: strictly speaking, the charter does not include specs for authorization and identity
#
aaronpk
eprodrom: yeah that makes sense
#
aaronpk
tantek: that's the restriction, but that doesn't mean we can't reference other specs
#
aaronpk
... we're all encouraged to make that modular
#
azaroth
+1
#
aaronpk
eprodrom: yeah i think that doesn't make sense to include a full dependency on any particular
#
azaroth
Section X: Security Concerns. You should do authentication.
#
aaronpk
cwebber2: both actiivtypump and micropub, but not solid, say OAuth 2.0 bearer tokens and the specifics are not beyond that
#
bengo
q?
#
Zakim
sees bengo on the speaker queue
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aaronpk
... or do we want to say it's definitely OAuth 2 bearer tokens or should we say we recommend that and leave it open to replace it
#
aaronpk
tantek: maybe if it's an aspect in common between actiivtypump and micropub it's worth highlighting in the social web protocol document, and if there's enough critical mass that's a point forward
#
aaronpk
cwebber2: we adopted it mostly becasue the indieweb documented it
#
aaronpk
... buti'm not sure this is the best way forward but it seems to be a solution
#
azaroth
q+ to +1 not mandating a particular version of a particular auth system
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Zakim
sees bengo, azaroth on the speaker queue
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aaronpk
sandro: the important thing is to say we need fthis sort of functionality and then one possible solution is OAuth 2
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aaronpk
q+ to differentiate between authentication and authorization
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Zakim
sees bengo, azaroth, aaronpk on the speaker queue
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aaronpk
eprodrom: OAuth 2 is not a simple thing
#
aaronpk
sandro: should we spell that all out?
#
aaronpk
eprodrom: NO
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aaronpk
bengo: oauth is a framework. it has things like client credentials for client authentication. i'm implementing openid connect, and yeah it's complicated.
#
aaronpk
eprodrom: and if you're not using SSL with bearer tokens that's bad
#
aaronpk
cwebber2: so then what do we do?
#
aaronpk
... how do we get interoperability?
melvster joined the channel
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aaronpk
eprodrom: are we talking about client-server or server-server interop? server-server interop doesn't belong here
#
aaronpk
... so client-server interop happens with documentation
#
aaronpk
cwebber2: so is this so complicated that it doesn't belong in these specs?
#
aaronpk
... what is the group's policy on this then?
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aaronpk
bengo: if you don't specify it, then there are other good things that will fill the gap
#
azaroth
q?
#
Zakim
sees bengo, azaroth, aaronpk on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
sees bengo, azaroth, aaronpk on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
sees bengo, azaroth, aaronpk, tantek on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
... if you say 'it must use bearer tokens' then it doesn't really say much
#
aaronpk
eprodrom: another possibility is putting it in security considerations at the end and say authentication must be present
#
aaronpk
sandro: we can say we're intentionally not specifying that because it's a continually evolving space
#
aaronpk
tantek: we can say we're actively looking for implementer feedback
#
aaronpk
Arnaud: generally working groups stay away from this issue
#
aaronpk
... unfortunately it hurts interop because you can't have interop without specifying this
#
aaronpk
eprodrom: at the risk of asking for crazy proliferation of specs, could it be a separate specification?
#
aaronpk
tantek: unlikely in this group because it would be outside the charter
#
melvster
just implemented inboxes + authentication ... ping me if any devs would like a demo
#
aaronpk
cwebber2: i don't know what to write, anyone want to help?
#
aaronpk
eprodrom volunteers
#
jasnell
FYI: AS2.0 Editor's Drafts updated to reflect today's resolutions and editorial comments discussed at the F2F (http://jasnell.github.io/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/activitystreams-core/, http://jasnell.github.io/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/activitystreams-vocabulary/ )
#
tantek
jasnell++ amazing
#
Loqi
jasnell has 36 karma
#
aaronpk
cwebber2: i have a feeling this will come up again when we look at interop between the specs
#
bengo
let it come up as an issue
#
eprodrom
q?
#
Zakim
sees bengo, azaroth, aaronpk, tantek on the speaker queue
#
bengo
q-
#
Zakim
sees azaroth, aaronpk, tantek on the speaker queue
#
melvster
Arnaud++ good text
#
azaroth
q-
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Zakim
sees aaronpk, tantek on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
sees aaronpk, tantek, cwebber on the speaker queue
#
Loqi
Arnaud has 29 karma
#
aaronpk
... we're going to hit this again, and we can't pretend we won't have to talk about it again
#
Zakim
sees tantek, cwebber on the speaker queue
#
jasnell
FYI: implementation for Node.js has been updated as well (npm install activitystrea.ms), as has the working copy of the JSON-LD context document at http://asjsonld.mybluemix.net
#
eprodrom
q?
#
Zakim
sees tantek, cwebber on the speaker queue
#
azaroth
jasnell++
#
Loqi
jasnell has 37 karma
#
eprodrom
ack tantek
#
Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
tantek: i did just pull up our charter to double check, the word identity is not in our charter. the reference to "auth" is one of the inputs from the indieweb community is IndieAuth.
#
aaronpk
... so it's an input but not part of the scope and goals
#
aaronpk
sandro: i remember it being specifically out of scope but can't find an explicit reference in the charter
#
aaronpk
sandro: i'm more confused about identity since it ties to profile
#
aaronpk
tantek: i woudl argue that that aspect of identity is in scope
#
eprodrom
q?
#
Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
... if it's not in the charter, you have to argue why it's relevant
#
azaroth
W3C Trail. You have died of Identity. Would you like to play again?
#
bengo
Activity Pump inboxes apply equal well to my house or plant or Thing as to my personal profile
#
aaronpk
sandro: activitystreams has the notion of identity, actors have a URL
#
eprodrom
q?
#
Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
#
bengo
activitysteams does not have identity anymore
#
aaronpk
tantek: profile URL or ID string is different from the notion of a profile with attributes
#
aaronpk
we should stop talking about identity, it's tiring my scribe fingers
#
melvster
aaronpk: sadly, you cant have a social web without identity
#
aaronpk
jasnell: the activitystreams spec has the notion of actor which has an ID, it has the "person" object type, and it says that if you are going to describe specific properties of a person then you should use vcard.
#
cwebber2
we're having an identity crisis
#
aaronpk
... additionally there is profile object type which is a nebulously defined thing that describes something else
#
eprodrom
q?
#
Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
#
eprodrom
ack cwebber?
#
Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
#
sandro
sandro: bottom line: we're going to leave identity/profiles fuzzy
#
aaronpk
cwebber2: what i was going to bring up was transient and private activities?
#
aaronpk
sandro: would it be okay to leave it out of the first version?
#
aaronpk
cwebber2: yeah the current version says you have to keep a link and for deleted things you have to keep a tombstone
#
aaronpk
... i'm curious about people's thoughts, but not required for bringing to editor's draft
#
aaronpk
q+ to propose accepting ActivityPump as an editor's draft
#
Zakim
sees cwebber, aaronpk on the speaker queue
#
eprodrom
q?
#
Zakim
sees cwebber, aaronpk on the speaker queue
#
eprodrom
ack cwebber2
#
Zakim
sees cwebber, aaronpk on the speaker queue
#
eprodrom
ack cwebber
#
Zakim
sees aaronpk on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
sees aaronpk on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
sees aaronpk, cwebber on the speaker queue
#
eprodrom
ack aaronpk
#
Zakim
aaronpk, you wanted to propose accepting ActivityPump as an editor's draft
#
Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
eprodrom
q?
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
PROPOSED: accept ActivityPump as editor's draft
#
bengo
+1
#
azaroth
+1
#
eprodrom
+1
#
aaronpk
sandro: with the intent of putting it on the rec track
#
eprodrom
RESOLVED: accept ActivityPump as editor's draft
#
azaroth
:)
#
ben_thatmustbeme
cwebber2 no need to flip the table :)
#
aaronpk
tantek: i'd like to thank aaron and chris for their hard work, it shows in these drafts
#
wilkie
aaronpk++
#
Loqi
aaronpk has 14 karma
#
wilkie
rhiaro++
#
Loqi
rhiaro has 188 karma
#
wilkie
azaroth++
#
tantek
wilkie++
#
Loqi
azaroth has 9 karma
#
Loqi
wilkie has 24 karma
#
aaronpk
trackbot, end meeting
#
trackbot
is ending a teleconference.
#
trackbot
Zakim, list attendees
#
Zakim
As of this point the attendees have been Arnaud, csarven, rhiaro, aaronpk, shanehudson, sandro, elf-pavlik, kevinmarks, wilkie, eprodrom, jasnell, ben_thatmustbeme, cwebber,
#
Zakim
... tantek, hhalpin, james, tsyesika, wseltzer, akuckartz, shepazu, Rob_Sanderson, Shane_, rene, cwebber2, Benjamin_Young, bengo
#
trackbot
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
#
RRSAgent
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/12/01-social-minutes.html trackbot
#
trackbot
RRSAgent, bye
#
RRSAgent
I see no action items
#
tantek
RRSAgent, make logs public
#
ben_thatmustbeme
turns on video\
#
tantek
aside: http://www.w3.org/2013/socialweb/social-wg-charter.html does say: "Other components necessary for building federated/decentralized social Web systems are in scope but will not lead to Recommendation-track work without re-chartering, and should be discussed in the Social Interest Group."
#
tantek
I believe we could thus develop a W3C Note about identity.
bblfish, shepazu_, tantek, Arnaud, jasnell, kevinmarks, Arnaud1, kevinmarks2, jaywink, shevski, peacekeeper, elf-pavlik and azaroth joined the channel
#
azaroth
will be there about 10:20 or so today, shifted one on campus meeting and the big one was cancelled by someone else :)
#
azaroth
but need to step out from 12:00 till 1:00
kevinmarks, kevinmarks2, tilgovi, tantek and jasnell joined the channel
#
aaronpk
good morning!
#
tantek
good morning aaronpk !
#
rhiaro
good breakfast!
jasnell, kevinmarks and jasnell_ joined the channel
#
tantek
Rene, are you around?
#
tantek
first thing we have listed this morning is to go over any issues / questions you have
#
tantek
re: AS2 extensions/features
bengo and eprodrom joined the channel
#
eprodrom
I'm running a few minutes late.
#
kevinmarks
my train gets in ~10:10 so there a bit before 10.30 but I can talky in if I'm needed
#
tantek
our talky is up btw
#
tantek
talky.io / socialwg
#
tantek
ben_thatmustbeme, tsyesika, elf-pavlik, rene - ^^^ our talky is up
#
elf-pavlik
thanks tantek!
#
tantek
if anyone has any more proposed techincal agenda items for today, please add them to : https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-12-01#Proposed_technical_items cc:bengo
#
tantek
who is on the talky?
#
elf-pavlik
i just joined
#
elf-pavlik
but will only listen
#
elf-pavlik
yes i can hear!
#
tantek
trackbot, start meeting
#
trackbot
is preparing a teleconference.
RRSAgent joined the channel
#
trackbot
RRSAgent, make logs public
#
RRSAgent
I have made the request, trackbot
#
trackbot
Zakim, this will be SOCL
#
Zakim
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
#
trackbot
Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
#
trackbot
Date: 02 December 2015
#
tantek
present+
#
bengo
present+
#
aaronpk
present+
#
wilkie
present+
#
cwebber2
present~
#
rhiaro
present+ rhiaro
#
sandro
present+
#
wseltzer
present+
#
cwebber2
present+ cwebber2
#
jasnell_
present+ jasnell
#
tantek
scribenick: cwebber2
#
cwebber2
tantek: the first thing is that cwebber2 had an item to propose
evanp joined the channel
#
cwebber2
tantek: the other first thing is to discuss the as2 features from rene but he's not online
#
cwebber2
jasnell: he did document it in a github issue
#
cwebber2
sandro: let's give him a few hours
#
cwebber2
tantek: I agree
#
cwebber2
tantek: there were a few things added to the agenda
e_s_p joined the channel
#
cwebber2
tantek: integration user stories. Is that you bengo ?
#
cwebber2
bengo: yes
#
cwebber2
tantek: how much time do you need? 10 minutes?
Arnaud joined the channel
#
cwebber2
bengo: yes
#
cwebber2
tantek: and cwebber2 how much time do you need for the activipy demo
#
cwebber2
cwebber2: 10-15 minutes
#
cwebber2
tantek: I propose we do those first to give time for rene to show up
#
cwebber2
bengo: so there's a sorting user stories wiki page
#
tantek
10 minutes for this item
#
cwebber2
bengo: this one is close to what we're doing at our company, we give people javascript snippets that people put on their site, templatized
#
cwebber2
bengo: want to ask how this would work. lots of discovery stuff is about delegating servies
#
cwebber2
bengo: frequent problem at big companies is the person who installed a cms no longer works there
#
cwebber2
bengo: so webfinger (?) type things are useful in that you don't need to muck with the headers, etc
#
rhiaro
waves at tsyesika
#
cwebber2
bengo: so service discovery is something I've talked about a lot, rather than just point to an activitypump endpoint, they want a traditional comment setup type thing
#
tantek
present+ tsyesika
#
cwebber2
... how do you do that with this
#
cwebber2
sandro: is the comment box normally an iframe
#
cwebber2
bengo: in our case no, most cases yes
eprodrom_ joined the channel
#
tsyesika
present+
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eprodrom_
q+
#
Zakim
sees eprodrom_ on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
bengo: in our case it's mostly because customers like to use css to arbitrarily change things even though that makes our lives hard
#
tantek
present+ eprodrom
#
cwebber2
sandro: so do users have accounts on your or their system
#
cwebber2
bengo: it's pluggable
#
cwebber2
bengo: when a user does something that needs to plug in, it gets a token, and ..?
#
tantek
ack eprodrom
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
... a lot of our things our these things but have been done internally as a proprietary way
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: it's an interesting use case because many things do stuff like reviews, likes on a page., etc
#
cwebber2
eprodrom_: there's a few ways it could work
#
cwebber2
eprodrom_: on pumpio if you want to do something on a remote site, you log into their server via your server, via outh
#
cwebber2
eprodrom_: so their server acts like a client to your server
#
cwebber2
eprodrom_: it's a complicated mechanism, there are other ways it could work. There are some other patterns you may want to implement.
#
cwebber2
eprodrom_: I don't know if you collect posts around the web but you could do that too
#
cwebber2
eprodrom_: I think that's actually an interesting case for the api
#
cwebber2
eprodrom_: my gut feeling is that it requires things like a global firehose that everybody aims their public posts towards
#
cwebber2
... and whoever wants to can drink from that firehose
#
aaronpk
q+ to bring up comment services via webmention
#
Zakim
sees aaronpk on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
... but I think it' an interesting issue
#
cwebber2
... might be worth sketching out as a little api type protocol situation
#
Zakim
sees aaronpk on the speaker queue
#
tantek
ack aaronpk
#
Zakim
aaronpk, you wanted to bring up comment services via webmention
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
bengo: I think there's enough of existing specs where we could boot something up and see if indiewebbers and (?) want to do it
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: there are som eexisting examples with webmention, like ^
bengo joined the channel
#
cwebber2
... if you set your webmention endpoint to that, it pulls in the comments to put them on the page
#
cwebber2
... kind of like disqus, it shows the comments there
#
cwebber2
... we have the mechanism to show the comment form and stuff
#
cwebber2
... the nice thing it lets the author choose where their comments are bieng collected
azaroth joined the channel
#
cwebber2
... as opposed to "use twitter and tweet on the hashtag and we'll pull it out"
#
cwebber2
tantek: are you able to show examples of people using this bengo?
#
cwebber2
bengo: yes *posts above link*
#
aaronpk
all the comments on http://www.kevinmarks.com/ are pulled in via that herokuapp
#
cwebber2
bengo: in that case if you sign in on the page it does an arbitrary auth thing
#
cwebber2
tantek: ok any other input you want to the working group?
#
cwebber2
bengo: I think I got it
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro
scribenick: rhiaro
#
rhiaro
TOPIC: Activipy demo
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wilkie
rhiaro++
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Loqi
rhiaro has 189 karma
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rhiaro
*technical setup*
#
rhiaro
*postponed until magical arrival of vga cable*
#
cwebber2
scribenick: cwebber2
#
tantek
any word from Rene?
#
eprodrom
q+
#
Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
tantek: ok, then let's jump right into federation protocol, which is our next agenda item
#
cwebber2
TOPIC: federation protocol
#
tantek
ack eprodrom
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: I'd like to talk for a couple minutes for what our plan is for tackling federation protocol
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: esp when we have a lot to do as in terms of syntax and api
#
Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: sorry to be blunt, but it's the optional item on our charter, but I think it's likely the last rather than the immediately last piece
#
cwebber2
tantek: ok for 5 minutes to discuss this beforehand?
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: ok
#
Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro
*vga cable arrives*
#
cwebber2
tantek: ok 5 minutes on agenda prioritization
#
tantek
ack cw
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
tantek
rhiaro, can you scribe?
#
Zakim
sees aaronpk on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro
scribenick: rhiaro
#
rhiaro
Federation and social api things are not too different. I tmight end up not being in terms of micropub depending on what comes out of aaron's brainstorming. If it turns out we can do those things in one fell swoop, it would be kind of nice and nice to not force ourselces to not work on them if is actually most efficient for us to address them together
#
Zakim
sees aaronpk on the speaker queue
#
eprodrom
q?
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Zakim
sees aaronpk on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
scribenick: cwebber2
#
tantek
ack aaronpk
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
eprodrom
q+
#
Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: my take on it is why a social api is useful it's not too useful without federation
#
rhiaro
s/Federation and social api things are not too different. I tmight end up not being in terms of micropub depending on what comes out of aaron's brainstorming. If it turns out we can do those things in one fell swoop, it would be kind of nice and nice to not force ourselces to not work on them if is actually most efficient for us to address them together/cwebber2: Federation and social api things are not too different. I tmight end up not being in terms of
#
rhiaro
micropub depending on what comes out of aaron's brainstorming. If it turns out we can do those things in one fell swoop, it would be kind of nice and nice to not force ourselces to not work on them if is actually most efficient for us to address them together
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: I agree there's value in it, but I think it's not a very good goal to stop there
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: for me a lot of the goal of this group is to do federation
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Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
tantek
ack eprodrom
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: and I don't want a repeat of oauth where nothing interops because there was no attempt to do it
#
ben_thatmustbeme
finally catching up on all the logs, i had an app that did server to server micropub for syndication to twitter, the negotiation of access keys was the most annoying part really, but once that was done, it worked fine
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: so I think that by far the great majority of social programming is done as client/server apis, there are very few very small client/server apis comparativley
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: while most of us come from that federated social web world, while that might feel like the most important goal, I feel like the federation thing is the treat for us is all cool and fun, but I think giving the dessert first is a bad idea
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: we do things like we tangle up the social api and federation
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
sees sandro on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: but I think attacking federation at this point is not the best use of our resources
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: I'm happy to go at it but it feels like a big stretch
#
tantek
ack sandro
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: and I'd like to talk about what process we have to do it
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cwebber2
sandro: who's the market for the API without federation?
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: so who would use it? take for example a new social network, which those launch all the time
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: secret, instagram, periscope, etc
#
Zakim
sees aaronpk on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: having a standard api that's close to hand might be what's used
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: that might be a market is what they're doing
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cwebber2
sandro: and the benefit is it's less work to adopt their own
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cwebber2
sandro: ?
#
Zakim
sees aaronpk, cwebber on the speaker queue
bengo joined the channel
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cwebber2
sandro: I guess you're suggesting it's not cost effective to switch to the standard
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Zakim
sees aaronpk, cwebber on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
sandro: and the new folks don't know they want it
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cwebber2
eprodrom: yes, and I think it's easier to do incremental adoption
#
wseltzer
waves to kevinmarks, tsyesika , though I'm seated beside the video camera
#
bengo
q+
#
Zakim
sees aaronpk, cwebber, bengo on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
sandro: in the needs document, federation is 1, 2, and 5
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Zakim
sees aaronpk, cwebber, bengo on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: yeah, I think also managing profile stuff
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tantek
ack aaronpk
#
Zakim
sees cwebber, bengo on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: follow-up question evan, the value is to design the api
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: it's not me saying this, it's the charter
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: my follow up question is you also see as part of that the value is someone's building an amazing iphone app that does video editing in a new way
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: is the value that they can already do a web api they can point to?
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: and someone wants to build something but not use the mobile app... ?
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: there does seem some value in having federation standardized
#
kevinmarks
present+
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: you're able to swap out what servers you're using
#
tantek
kevinmarks are you on talky?
#
Zakim
sees cwebber, bengo on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: that's exactly it, you can use off the shelf libraries and etc
#
kevinmarks
I am now
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: both on client and server side
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kevinmarks
muted and video off
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cwebber2
eprodrom: I think there's a number of ways you could do something that doesn't have federation at its core
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: for companies, individuals, everyone
#
kevinmarks
as the train is in noisy level crossing mode
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: I think ultimately form a procedure standpoint, we have 3 deliverables, are not at CR for any of them, we have one that's optional, and we have worries about what to do about all of them is useful
#
Zakim
sees cwebber, bengo on the speaker queue
#
tantek
ack cwebber2
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Zakim
sees cwebber, bengo on the speaker queue
#
tantek
ack cwebber
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Zakim
sees bengo on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
sees bengo, sandro on the speaker queue
bengo joined the channel
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: I'd like to hear we start federation protocol because XYZ not be cause we think it's cool
#
rhiaro
scribenick: rhiaro
#
kevinmarks
if we want to do a micropub+webmention+webaction demo later, I have all the bits for that set up
#
tantek
kevinmarks - if you want to do that, could you add to https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-12-01#Proposed_technical_items ?
#
rhiaro
cwebber2: I think a couple of things. 1) most of the companies that ar eputting out things like this probably don't want to use an off the shelf mobile app anyway, because they want to control their brand in some way. Although it is true that when media goblin implemented the pump api we were able to use existing clients and it just worked
#
Zakim
sees bengo, sandro on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro
... that is pretty cool, but one concern is that it would take a lot of work to try to decouple the client to server stuff in AP
#
kevinmarks
hi wseltzer see you in 40 mins or so
#
rhiaro
... I also worry that in terms of motivation to stay active in this group, it's going to be hard to stay motivated if federation is not on the horizon
#
rhiaro
... My interest drops dramatically. That's the whole reason I'm int he group.
#
Zakim
sees bengo, sandro on the speaker queue
#
tantek
ack bengo
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Zakim
sees sandro on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro
... If federation looks like it's not a likely target it's going to reduce the amount I'm enthused to stay involved. I want to keep it on the horizon. It's a high priority / life goal for m to advance that
#
cwebber2
scribenick: cwebber2
#
cwebber2
bengo: aside from social api benefits of the next api benefits etc, I think it's useful for reusable readers/writers etc, but also because web components that real enterprise buyers will have motivation to use
#
Zakim
sees sandro on the speaker queue
#
eprodrom
q+
#
Zakim
sees sandro, eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
bengo: those same benefits could come from a standardized api, might not benefit from federation
#
cwebber2
bengo: my other question is evan, are you just not eager to talk about it for 4 hours right now?
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: I'm more concerned over months and years than the next several hours
#
kevinmarks
is not sure the talky is worth it in this noise; will fall back to reading scribed
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: we are at 5 drafts that we're working on, and we're going to start a new process for federation protocol
#
tantek
ack sandro
#
Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
sandro: I think we concluded that the user stories covered both
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: I think we said it's topology agnostic
#
cwebber2
sandro: right, so that means we can just say applies across servers
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: that sounds like a good thing to do
#
cwebber2
tantek: so that's basically a requirement for a user story
#
Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: so federation is server to server level, so I assume it has more to do with server protocol than about user interaction
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: so we already have what we need?
#
cwebber2
tantek: as part of our charter, webmention was part of our protocol, same as we accepted as2 as a draft, so proceeding a similar track as as2
#
cwebber2
tantek: there's no sense of exclusivity for sure
#
Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
tantek
ack eprodrom
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
sees sandro on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
tantek: but I understand there's a concern about the amount of time on it
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: so I'd just like to hear what our plan is from the next few months
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: are we choosing webmention immediately?
#
cwebber2
tantek: I didn't hear that,
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: so we're going to look at alternative systems?
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: I propose we talk about how we're going to do this
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: I suggest you add that
#
cwebber2
tantek: that sounds more process oriented than tech oriented
#
bengo
It would be interesting to resolve finalizing reader/writer Social API stories above federation, which could just be standardizing processing rules for that API
#
cwebber2
sandro: that's what we're talking about now?
#
cwebber2
tantek: no this was 5 minutes to express concerns
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: will add to proposed admin items
#
cwebber2
tantek: based on concern over how much time, let me ask aaron how much time we need
#
bengo
e.g. decouple delivery/notification rules of ActivityPump from describing POST /outbox and expected semantics/errors
#
cwebber2
tantek: how much time do you actually want?
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: I have a couple issues I want feedback on
#
Zakim
sees sandro on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: I also want to clarify process stuff about webmention spec
#
cwebber2
tantek: how much total time do you want
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: I imagine an hour is fine
#
cwebber2
tantek: any objection to slotting an hour time?
#
cwebber2
sandro: that's fine
#
cwebber2
tantek: let's timebox yours to an hour. is that okay eprodrom ?
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: sounds great
#
jasnell
btw, given that I have a 3.5 hour drive home, I'd like to try to get on the road home a bit early today, if at all possible, I'd like to see if we could handle the remaining AS2 issues a bit earlier in the agenda
#
Zakim
sees sandro on the speaker queue
#
tantek
ack sand
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
sandro: let's do demo after break (vga cable had arrived)
#
tantek
TOPIC: discuss Webmention to take it to First Public Working Draft
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: a lot of people read over webmention doc, lots of issues filed, lots of good discussion
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: trying to work before this meeting
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: before we do that, I wanted to clarify the place the spec lives etc
#
kevinmarks
when is break? I added a demo suggestion to the items
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: after last call I made for issues only
#
tantek
kevinmarks, we'll take a break at 10:50
#
Loqi
I added a countdown for 12/2 10:50am (#5772)
#
kevinmarks
OK, I'll be there by then
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: my proposal is to move from w3c issues to my personal account on github, so it follows same protocol as activitystreams (under jame's account) so there's no confusion over who's the admin of ther epo
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: I'll have to do the work of moving the actual spec contents to respec format, I'm planning on doing that on github because that's an easy way to manage source code, so that's then the source of the document using the normal workflow, and if I have trouble I can ask james
#
kevinmarks
if you want to schedule a few minutes for a webmention micropub demo
#
cwebber2
sandro: so if you move the repo
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: all the issues will stay
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: I don't want to fragment the convo too much
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: that also means the indiewebcamp wiki, which is where the spec is canonical right now, will have to figure out how to deal with that
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: if we write that in the github html source, have to figure out how to move to the indieweb (?)
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: I think that's outside the scope of this group though, I mostly wanted to make sure the described worklow makes sense
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: since AS2 does that too
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: happy to make chairs admin on the repo
#
cwebber2
tantek: I'm not hearing objections to use same workflow as AS2
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
tantek: I think we can accept it if no concerns
#
cwebber2
jasnell: no concerns, I think having it with full chair access helps
#
cwebber2
jasnell: that's something you might want to consider, with full rights
#
cwebber2
jasnell: having someone else there with same permission level helps balance that it's not just you
#
cwebber2
jasnell: that's my recommendation
#
cwebber2
tantek: that cover yer spec process issues/
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: yes it does
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: let's get onto the guts of it then
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: this has always been a vague par to fthe spec, verifying that source links back to the target
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: in the land of html, it's easy to do that
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: but if we're talking about other types of source docukments, need to see if it needs to be spelled out more explicitly
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: that doc links to another doc
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: if that's clear by content type, then it doesn't need to be
#
cwebber2
sandro: I think it's not well spelled out
#
cwebber2
sandro: my instinct is there's motivation to spell it out but as I commented
#
cwebber2
sandro: if there's a way to do webmentions, a blog system that does webmentions, to know if it's conformatnt to the spec, have to define what is a link that does webmention?
#
cwebber2
sandro: if I have a piece of software with a webmention endpoint, then we should agree on what counts as passing verification
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: right, first step of processing webmention is to see what's in it
#
cwebber2
sandro: first exmaple is relative URIs
#
cwebber2
sandro: eg, "is this string in there, the url doesn't appear there, but it's absolutely specified"
#
bengo
q+
#
Zakim
sees bengo on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: ok so we don't need to discuss the actual contents right now, but worht specifying...?
#
cwebber2
tantek: is it reasonable to say you raise issues as helpful...?
#
cwebber2
sandro: you get my point it's not just about verificaiton, but aloso when do you send the webmention
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: ok
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: yeah
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: 17 is a similar one
#
Zakim
sees bengo on the speaker queue
#
tantek
ack bengo
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
bengo: webmention does seem useful as a way of doing an "FYI" standard
#
cwebber2
bengo: I kind of agree that it's possible to recommend specifying algorithms
#
cwebber2
bengo: webmention as FYI in a timely manner, that's separate from specifics
#
kevinmarks
is the verification part going to be normative?
#
kevinmarks
or suggested
#
cwebber2
bengo: there seems like a way to separate FYI from each content type
tilgovi joined the channel
#
cwebber2
sandro: for instance in json-ld to find out if there's links or not you have to do full expansion
#
cwebber2
tantek: similar for html parsing algorithm you have to do media type parsing
#
cwebber2
sandro: I don't know the right answer but conceptually here's webmention on this matrix, and here's webmention for each other possible mediat ype
#
wseltzer
s/mediat ype/media type/
#
cwebber2
tantek: perhaps the general approach that sandro / bengo 's mentioning is apply webmention FYI, but if per media type processing to do, write an example for each media type
#
eprodrom
q?
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
tantek: then add after that and say, for other media types, handle their processing model for each term
#
cwebber2
tantek: as bengo said for each media type it's worth processsing
#
cwebber2
sandro: maybe spec says it can apply to each terms
#
cwebber2
sandro: but conformance is weird maybe
#
cwebber2
sandro: so it's a sender/receiver for different types
#
kevinmarks
what do we mean by 'each media type' - would we process a QR code?
#
cwebber2
bengo: but even ?? ships
#
cwebber2
bengo: if it's already should, it's specific about each type
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: that brings me to something related, which is 18 from wilkie
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: I think gist of this is that is there a way the spec can limit the amount of work receiver has to do
#
cwebber2
wilkie: yep
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: because anyone having to verify document, can link a document, which could even be a 1gb document...
#
cwebber2
wilkie: I'm looking for some bullet points saying "this could happen, here's how to avoid some obvious/easy ways to get hut"
#
cwebber2
sandro: for example, never bother to fetch more than a megabyte
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: so this seems not part of the algorithm, but
#
cwebber2
tantek: it's a MUST vs SHOULD
#
cwebber2
sandro: alternatively you could say it's only defined for the first megabyte
#
cwebber2
sandro: another technical solution is you could say include range
#
cwebber2
someone: *trollish laughter*
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: I'll try to find some way to avoid falling into a pit of processing
#
cwebber2
tantek: maybe send two megabytes and see what happens
#
cwebber2
sandro: many redirects is another thing
#
cwebber2
wilkie: if anyone wants to give permission to have their webmention endpoint to be possibly broken
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
sandro: so another way to put it, do I have the legal authority to post whatever I want to an endpoint?
#
cwebber2
tantek: for a lot of these things you can see if there's prior art in pingback or etc
#
cwebber2
tantek: it's very mature
#
cwebber2
sandro: it's also discarded
#
cwebber2
tantek: unmaintained
#
cwebber2
sandro: who should review webmention? particularly, what ietf groups might get upset, so we can approach in the appropriate way
#
cwebber2
sandro: the kind of people who will say "this is crazy, you can't do this"
#
ben_thatmustbeme
totally confused myself on start time
#
cwebber2
sandro: they look at pingback and say nobody should do this, we'd like them to have them say "oh this is (good?)"
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
aaronpk: (??) was left out of pingback
#
cwebber2
sandro: jasnell you have some experience with the http working group right?
#
cwebber2
sandro: if we could have them not hate it that'd be nice
#
aaronpk
s/??/what to display after you receive a pingback/
#
wseltzer
q+
#
Zakim
sees wseltzer on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
jasnell: we could float it, experience has been mixed
#
tantek
ack wseltzer
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
wseltzer: if it's something you want brought to ietf discussion that's the right place to raise an issue for people to review
#
cwebber2
tantek: maybe consider that for draft advancement
#
wseltzer
s/ietf discussion/ietf apps-area discussion/
#
cwebber2
jasnell: the apps working group might... hm.... might be a more appropriate venue. But I think it could rabbithole very quickly...
#
cwebber2
jasnell: nneither is ideal, but of the two, apps might be it
#
cwebber2
sandro: we could find liason types
#
cwebber2
jasnell: I'm very familiar with both groups so I can do that....
#
cwebber2
tantek: is there an appropriate maturity schedule needed to do that review?
#
cwebber2
tantek: need is before CR? I'm sensing there's an opinoin that having review soner could be helpful?
#
cwebber2
sandro: related thing is, how this is framed/scoped as... is it for everything on the web?
#
cwebber2
sandro: it's grown out of the social use cases, but you could mention things that grew out of social or not social
#
Zakim
sees wseltzer on the speaker queue
#
wseltzer
q+
#
cwebber2
sandro: do we want to say we don't care about some of those others? i don't know the righ answer
#
cwebber2
sandro: it's simple/elegant enough it might be able to, but we might see it hits other issues....
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cwebber2
jasnell: that's a common problem for apps group, scope bloat
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cwebber2
tantek: sounds like you're asking for a scope section
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cwebber2
sandro: I'm... not sure scope section will help.
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Zakim
sees wseltzer on the speaker queue
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aaronpk
ack wseltzer
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
sandro: quesiton back here is does anyone have interest in selling it more broadly? or are we too concerned about feedback?
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wseltzer
q+
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Zakim
sees wseltzer on the speaker queue
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wseltzer
q+ to comment on security review
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Zakim
sees wseltzer on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
aaronpk: within the realm of social web stuff, I don't know if it's appropriate for other uses stuff
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cwebber2
sandro: one relatively harmless way to do it might be to have a w3c staff technical ...?
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cwebber2
sandro: any group can say we'd love w3c staff to look at it but
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cwebber2
sandro: could be kinda interesting
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cwebber2
tantek: best before or after first working draft?
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cwebber2
sandro: probalby after
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Zakim
sees wseltzer on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
sandro: I don't think there's much risk
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tantek
ack wseltzer
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Zakim
wseltzer, you wanted to comment on security review
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
wseltzer: another productive avenue of review could be in security, and how will this actually worked when deployed at scale across a variety of malicious mentioners and mentioneees
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bengo
q+
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Zakim
sees bengo on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
wseltzer: what could one feed to someone else's verifier to have it blow up etc?
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cwebber2
wseltzer: we have ?? that w3c can invite at any time to review
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cwebber2
bengo: just thought, should it respec the robots.txt for ...?
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wseltzer
s/??/Privacy IG and Security IG/
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wseltzer
s/w3c/WG/
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cwebber2
aaronpk: whether to respect robots.txt ...
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bengo
q-
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
sandro: robots.txt is about crawling
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kevinmarks
No-one is on reception, can someone let me in?
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cwebber2
aaronpk: this one is issue #9
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wseltzer
imagines the "feed a prohibited URL to get the mention-collector blocked by authorities"
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kevinmarks
Never mind
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cwebber2
aaronpk: issue #9 is about talking about parmeter name, source, target, and fact that they aren't actually URIs
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cwebber2
aaronpk: I don't... things seem to be working just fine as strings
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cwebber2
aaronpk: is there some way to get around this the way the json-ld workaround to wokr
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cwebber2
bengo: I got the author to agree later to language they would do
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cwebber2
melvin would resolve "we can convert this to semantics"
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cwebber2
sandro: we should pick a namespace
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cwebber2
bengo: not actually the protocol that needs to change
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cwebber2
aaronpk: if not pingback what's the proper name
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cwebber2
tantek: namespace for what?
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cwebber2
aaronpk: term, source, targget
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aaronpk
s/term,/for the terms/
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cwebber2
sandro: they're link relations from webmention...
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cwebber2
aaronpk: so string source is not a fully qualified uri
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cwebber2
rhiaro: same as AS2, default namespace
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cwebber2
sandro: I don't think it really matters, but it doesn't hurt to give a default namespace
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cwebber2
tantek: I recommend you follow up with jasnell
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rhiaro
w3.org/ns/...
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ben_thatmustbeme
presumably we don't actually need to send that namespace correct?
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cwebber2
bengo: needs a version
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ben_thatmustbeme
or rather the context?
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cwebber2
tantek: now you're borderline trolling
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rhiaro
ben_thatmustbeme: right
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sandro
right, ben_thatmustbeme
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rhiaro
just for receivers if they want to add it upon receipt
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tantek
s/version/version ;)
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elf-pavlik
webmention seems to represent a link, how about using terms from as:Link ?
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cwebber2
aaronpk: let's talk about issue 13
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tantek
s/trolling/trolling ;)
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jasnell
fwiw, I've actually been playing around with an experimental draft for processing form data into json-ld
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cwebber2
aaronpk: right now every implementation afaik assumes only one webmention endpoint
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cwebber2
aaronpk: and only pings that one
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kevinmarks_
mine doesn't
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cwebber2
aaronpk: maybe correct anser is use first one you bump into
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cwebber2
tantek: but there's implementation agreement?
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cwebber2
kevinmarks: mine doesn't do that, it pings all
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cwebber2
kevinmarks: did it in response to tantek's comment
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cwebber2
aaronpk: but when you discover a webmention endpoint do you discover one
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cwebber2
kevinmarks: no it does as many as it can
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cwebber2
kevinmarks: an experiment, but useful use case is when transitioning from one endpoint to another
azaroth joined the channel
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cwebber2
tantek: do you feel strongly about that enuf to make that a should
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cwebber2
kevinmarks: you may want to ping more than one
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ben_thatmustbeme
are we bothering with queue?
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cwebber2
... the one I gbuilt stores entirely in ???
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cwebber2
aaronpk: my inclination is if you see value in multiple webmention pings, you can't acutlaly guarantee sending it to all of them, so you're better off sending to one
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bengo
q+
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Zakim
sees bengo on the speaker queue
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ben_thatmustbeme
nevermind, aaronpk basically said what i was going to
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Zakim
sees bengo on the speaker queue
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bengo
q-
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
aaronpk: the most reliable way is to have single webmention endpoint
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cwebber2
aaronpk: that's the only way to guarantee they all get the webmention
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cwebber2
kevinmarks: the other thing is to potentially handle webmentions for ones who haven't installed it yet
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cwebber2
kevinmarks: it's slightly off, but you could imagine a webmention sender automatically pings webmention services in case they have it there
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cwebber2
aaronpk: kind of like pinging archive.org(?)
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cwebber2
kevinmarks: potential utility in queueing, but not sure it's core enough to try to get everyone else to do it too
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
aaronpk: another risk that having senders send multiples, you might potentially send thousands
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cwebber2
aaronpk: kind of tempted to limit to just one first
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cwebber2
aaronpk: good things to document
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cwebber2
kevinmarks: if we do adopt the well-known approach to finding it, we do have the posssibility of doing ...(?)
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cwebber2
kevinmarks: we may want to discuss about related things
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cwebber2
tantek: there's order already for discovery
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cwebber2
tantek: sounds like you're close to proposed resolution
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cwebber2
aaronpk: I think so
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cwebber2
aaronpk: so, you MUST ping first on you find, then document reasons for not require multiple
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cwebber2
tantek: implementation guidance?
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cwebber2
aaronpk: yes
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cwebber2
sandro: I hadn't thought of well-known, I'd like to have it at end, but it woudl be nice to never have to do discovery again
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cwebber2
tantek: the stableness of well known is well known
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