#social 2017-04-11

2017-04-11 UTC
wseltzer, timbl, KevinMarks and geppy joined the channel
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rhiaro WebSub is published https://www.w3.org/TR/websub/ \o/
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Loqi [Julien Genestoux] WebSub
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cwebber \o/
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tantek good morning #social
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tantek "You are the first person to join the meeting. Please stand by." been a while since I heard that
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tantek trackbot, start meeting
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RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/04/11-social-irc
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trackbot is preparing a teleconference.
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trackbot RRSAgent, make logs public
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RRSAgent I have made the request, trackbot
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trackbot Zakim, this will be SOCL
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Zakim ok, trackbot
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trackbot Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
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trackbot Date: 11 April 2017
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tantek present+
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tantek *crickets*
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aaronpk present+
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rhiaro present+
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cwebber present+
eprodrom joined the channel
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tantek https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-03-28-minutes
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tantek https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-04-04-minutes
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cwebber missed the last couple meetings so is going to stay out of the vote, since can't accurately review
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cwebber nonetheless I am present+ :)
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tantek chair: tantek
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ben_thatmustbeme present+
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rhiaro zakim, pick a victim
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Zakim Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose tantek
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rhiaro tehe
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cwebber I can scribe for the non-AP parts
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cwebber oh ok!
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sandro present+
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tantek scribenick: eprodrom
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csarven present+
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aaronpk we should get Loqi to pick scribes
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eprodrom TOPIC: approval of minutes
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tantek PROPOSED: approve minutes of https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-03-28-minutes and https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-04-04-minutes
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rhiaro +1 4th, +0 28th (wasn't there)
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eprodrom +1
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csarven is present via IRC only
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aaronpk +1
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eprodrom present+
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ben_thatmustbeme +1
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cwebber yup
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sandro +1
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cwebber +0
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tantek RESOLVED: approve minutes of https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-03-28-minutes and https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-04-04-minutes
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eprodrom TOPIC: update on PRs
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eprodrom tantek: let's start with AS2
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rhiaro Yeah I did
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eprodrom tantek: we have two new issues
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cwebber yes I can scribe
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cwebber scribenick: cwebber
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tantek scribenick: cwebber
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cwebber eprodrom: forgot I had actual speaking today. we have 2 new issues on AS2
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cwebber eprodrom: one is geojson one, interesting but may be an extension / namespace thing rather than change to as2
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cwebber eprodrom: also one on extending what the attribution mechanism is. I don't think either one is core
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tantek issue URLs?
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trackbot doesn't understand that ISSUE command.
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eprodrom https://github.com/w3c/activitystreams/issues/414
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eprodrom https://github.com/w3c/activitystreams/issues/413
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cwebber eprodrom: geospatial stuff, we've all kind of gone with covering the top level of an object and then expect extensions to ...
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cwebber eprodrom: first is around extensions around geojson one, second is around attribution/licensing
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cwebber eprodrom: for second, Creative Commons already has a vocab, maybe show an example of using those
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cwebber notes +1 on using ccREL as extension
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cwebber eprodrom: my feeling is these are outside of the scope of AS2... if not outside of scope, good fit for extension
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cwebber q+
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Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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tantek ack cwebber
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eprodrom cwebber: +1 eprodrom. GeoJSON is a great example for an extension, ccREL has already done a lot of work handling licensing.
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eprodrom cwebber: if we've gone to the trouble of including extensions, these are good examples of using extensions.
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cwebber scribenick: cwebber
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csarven Yea, good candidates for extensions. Not core.
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cwebber tantek: ok, is there a place where we can have people look at a list of extensions we can encourage for reuse?
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rhiaro q+
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cwebber eprodrom: I don't think we have a single place like that, could be a good wiki page. Now that I've said it, I wonder if that's a link we should include in the document
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tantek ack rhiaro
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cwebber rhiaro: is this the domain of the community group? we said extensions were part of CG's work
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cwebber rhiaro: as incubation
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cwebber eprodrom: I think so
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cwebber tantek: I think that's another good answer we can add to the issue
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cwebber tantek: encourage incubation of extensions to the CG
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cwebber tantek: sounds like we have some good responses, one of which is "great suggestion, would be great as an extension", second is to create a place perhaps on wiki where we can informally have a list of extensions or things underway
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cwebber tantek: and lastly to encourage list of folks to join the CG and incubate their extensions there
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rhiaro q+
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cwebber tantek: outside of the GH issues for this spec
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tantek ack rhiaro
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eprodrom q+
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cwebber rhiaro: I'd say that we don't need to maintain a list of ongoing extensions, because that would go stale, and just say "the CG will provide it"
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tantek ack eprodrom
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cwebber eprodrom: what I wanted to ask is should we include that in the text of the document? maybe in the vocab document, say we have a community group that maintains extensions?
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cwebber sandro: you're certainly not imagining
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cwebber tantek: I remember you filing an issue
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eprodrom "Some popular extensions are included in the Activity Streams 2.0 namespace document, and can be reviewed at https://www.w3.org/ns/activitystreams#extensions."
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eprodrom q+
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Zakim sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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cwebber sandro: looking at spec, see geojson used as an example extension
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sandro Some popular extensions are included in the Activity Streams 2.0 namespace document, and can be reviewed at https://www.w3.org/ns/activitystreams#extensions.
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tantek ack eprodrom
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cwebber eprodrom: if it's ok for our document process, I would love to add a sentence underneath there along the lines of "extensions for AS2 are done in CG" with a link
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rhiaro +1 what ean said
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cwebber eprodrom: could be a good way to provide that continuity
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rhiaro s/ean/evan
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rhiaro hopefully if the CG changes its name it leaves a forwarding address
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cwebber sandro: one problem is if we change name of CG maybe link becomes stale...
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sandro https://www.w3.org/ns/activitystreams#extensions
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cwebber sandro: currently it doesn't link to the CG
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cwebber sandro: it says the same space may be used by extensions... [whole quote happens here]
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cwebber tantek: that seems like a reasonable small edit, to link to the specific CG since we have it
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cwebber tantek: seems reasonable based on previouss decisions
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cwebber sandro: in spec or in ?
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cwebber tantek: in the spec
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cwebber sandro: it's in the namespace doc right now, not the spec
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sandro Some popular extensions are included in the Activity Streams 2.0 namespace document, and can be reviewed at https://www.w3.org/ns/activitystreams#extensions.
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cwebber sandro: but we can change the namespace doc whenever
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cwebber sandro: here's the line in the line: ^^^
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cwebber tantek: ok, seems like a reasonable proposal, we can leave it to the CG
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cwebber tantek: and if the CG terminates, we can say here's where to go from here
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cwebber tantek: so you're proposing a small edit to the NS document and small edit to the spec itself in the same place that refers to extensions and the CG?
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cwebber sandro: yes
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cwebber eprodrom: does that set us back another 2 months
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cwebber sandro: nope
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cwebber tantek: is that something we can do and still hit our PR on thurs?
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cwebber sandro: not sure if it will go in there, maybe if rhiaro has staged a version, but probably
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rhiaro yeah I haven't staged anything yet
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cwebber doesn't object
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cwebber supports even
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cwebber sandro: another possible thing to do would be at the top of the document, with github link and etc, have a link to extensions that pointed to ns document on extensions
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cwebber tantek: I'm going to suggest not doing that, and here's why
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cwebber uhoh I disconnected
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cwebber someone scribe
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eprodrom scribenick: eprodrom
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eprodrom tantek: sometimes people propose extensions without reading the spec
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cwebber is back
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cwebber scribenick: cwebber
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tantek PROPOSED: Resolve AS2 issues 413 414 with sounds like good extensions, but not core spec. Suggest joining SWICG. Edit ns document to link to SWICG. Similar small "Note:" in AS2 in the same place it refers to extensions and the ns doc.
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rhiaro +1
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aaronpk +1
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cwebber cwebber: +1
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eprodrom +1
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sandro +1
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tantek RESOLVED: Resolve AS2 issues 413 414 with sounds like good extensions, but not core spec. Suggest joining SWICG. Edit ns document to link to SWICG. Similar small "Note:" in AS2 in the same place it refers to extensions and the ns doc.
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ben_thatmustbeme +1
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cwebber tantek: ok so we have only a couple editorial changes to as2, not sure if it will block PR or not but
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cwebber tantek: what are we waiting for PR on?
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cwebber sandro: amy submitted transition request on friday so we're waiting for ralph, expecting them to make the decision tomorrow? so we may transition on (friday?)
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cwebber or was it thursday
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cwebber tantek: I think that's all for as2
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rhiaro s/(friday?)/thursday
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cwebber tantek: let's move on to LDN
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eprodrom scribenick: eprodrom
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eprodrom TOPIC: LDN
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csarven should have checked the agenda
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eprodrom rhiaro: we are getting reviews, no formal objections, some implementations
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eprodrom TOPIC: Micropub
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eprodrom tantek: Ralph filed a security issue
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aaronpk https://github.com/w3c/Micropub/issues/89
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eprodrom tantek: aaronpk provided text
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tantek PROPOSED Resolution of issue 89: https://github.com/w3c/Micropub/issues/89#issuecomment-292315067
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ben_thatmustbeme +1
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eprodrom Addition of https://micropub.net/draft/#external-content
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tantek 6.1 https://micropub.net/draft/#external-content
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rhiaro +1
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eprodrom +1
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sandro +1
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eprodrom q+
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Zakim sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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tantek ack
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tantek ack eprodrom
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aaronpk +1 but i think that was implied because i wrote the text ;-)
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cwebber I'm still here
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eprodrom eprodrom: is there a document that we could refer to for security issues in sharing URLs?
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eprodrom tantek: none comes to mind
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cwebber give me one more minute
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cwebber sorry, brain kicking in
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cwebber it seems fine to me
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eprodrom TOPIC: WebSub CR
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rhiaro https://www.w3.org/TR/websub
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Loqi [Julien Genestoux] WebSub
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eprodrom sandro: it's out this morning
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ben_thatmustbeme yay!
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aaronpk ?
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eprodrom tantek: congrats to aaronpk and jullien
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Loqi ?
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eprodrom sandro: can you link the tweet
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tantek RESOLVED: Resolution of issue 89: https://github.com/w3c/Micropub/issues/89#issuecomment-292315067
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sandro https://twitter.com/sandhawke/status/851799399172800514
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Loqi [@sandhawke] WebSub, the http Pub/Sub protocol formerly known as PubSubHubbub (PuSH) finally makes it to @W3C Candidate Rec! https://www.w3.org/TR/websub/
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eprodrom tantek: aaronpk has to stage new pr draft, ralph has to review the edit for micropub
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cwebber yes
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eprodrom scribenick: eprodrom
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eprodrom TOPIC: activitypub
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eprodrom tantek: how are we doing?
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eprodrom cwebber: changes to the spec are imminent
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cwebber http://w3c.github.io/activitypub/#changes-17-nov-11-apr
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eprodrom cwebber: we had an extra # char at the end of the profile, inconsistent with AS2
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eprodrom cwebber: OK since AS2 is authoritative
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eprodrom cwebber: issues filed since last night
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cwebber https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/180
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cwebber https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/182
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eprodrom cwebber: did not document side effects for the ignore verb; would be normative
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eprodrom cwebber: document Ignore as a MAY
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eprodrom q+
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eprodrom eprodrom: Mute and Block are important functions
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eprodrom cwebber: could we include it as a MAY?
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rhiaro It might be something that implementations decide to do anyway
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rhiaro hopefully in a consistent way
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eprodrom tantek: that would be more conservative, include as an extension
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eprodrom cwebber: the commenter understands they're minor and last-minute
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eprodrom cwebber: https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/180 is more difficult
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cwebber https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/#icon
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eprodrom cwebber: we have some leftovers from pump.io
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eprodrom cwebber: icon is either a link or an URL
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eprodrom cwebber: what to do?
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eprodrom cwebber: we have suggested change text
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eprodrom cwebber: we could drop properties that are in AS2
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eprodrom q+
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aaronpk is glad he's muted because that was a very loud sneeze
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eprodrom tantek: it looks like sandro is in favor of dropping dupes
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eprodrom tantek: my understanding is that's not a functional change
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eprodrom rhiaro: I think it's fine
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eprodrom q-
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eprodrom cwebber: this will shorten the doc anyway
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eprodrom q+
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eprodrom q-
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eprodrom cwebber: "name" is called out as nickname or full name
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tantek that seems fine to me
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eprodrom cwebber: I don't see any properties that are restricted or more explicit
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eprodrom cwebber: should I keep the name one?
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cwebber https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/#actors
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rhiaro It would be kind of conspicuously absent if it wasn't there
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eprodrom cwebber: should we keep the one "name" property definition?
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rhiaro +1 simply listing AS2 ones that are expected
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rhiaro expected/recommended
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eprodrom cwebber: no other properties have been changed in AP
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eprodrom cwebber: with those edits done we should not have any normative changes
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tantek Keeping this text then? "Implementations SHOULD, in addition, provide the following properties:" ?
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eprodrom tantek: any other comments
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tantek in here: http://w3c.github.io/activitypub/#changes-17-nov-11-apr
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eprodrom cwebber: we reviewed with Ralph in email, he said it was OK
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tantek PROPOSED: Resolve AP issues 180 182 per consensus as discussed above.
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eprodrom +1
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cwebber +1
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aaronpk +1
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ben_thatmustbeme +1
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rhiaro +1
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tantek RESOLVED: Resolve AP issues 180 182 per consensus as discussed above.
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tantek PROPOSED: Publish updated AP CR draft with editorial fixes http://w3c.github.io/activitypub/#changes-17-nov-11-apr
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rhiaro +1
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cwebber +1
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aaronpk +1
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ben_thatmustbeme +1
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tantek RESOLUTION: Publish updated AP CR draft with editorial fixes http://w3c.github.io/activitypub/#changes-17-nov-11-apr
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rhiaro yeah needs publishing by hand, but no director approval, will take care of it
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sandro +1
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tantek RESOLVED: Publish updated AP CR draft with editorial fixes http://w3c.github.io/activitypub/#changes-17-nov-11-apr
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eprodrom tantek: any other updates on AP
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eprodrom cwebber: we have an implementation report template
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eprodrom cwebber: working on the test suite
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eprodrom cwebber: at worst 2 weeks
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eprodrom cwebber: may end up an interactive text adventure
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eprodrom cwebber: testing client-to-server (both sides), server-to-server
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eprodrom cwebber: might be really hard
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eprodrom q+
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rhiaro Same for LDN.. we just did a web form that people fill in after running their client, cwebber
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tantek ack eprodrom
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sandro loves the interactive text adventure that makes you go through the motions of social networking
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eprodrom cwebber: implementations have been moving along
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eprodrom cwebber: mastodon has a couple of commits that AP will be coming
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eprodrom cwebber: AP might be a good next step because it has a test suite
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aaronpk q+
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eprodrom aaronpk: i released the report before the test suite, so any reports had to be reverified
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eprodrom aaronpk: which was a hassle. So finish the test suite before getting implementation reports.
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eprodrom aaronpk: take a look at micropub.rocks
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eprodrom cwebber: strugee said they are hoping to get AP implementation in pump.io this month
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tantek forgot one important agenda item - next telcon date!
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eprodrom tantek: before we close, apologies that we are over
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strugee cwebber: prospects look good to at least have it in progress, if not finished
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strugee in terms of the time I can allocate to it
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eprodrom tantek: next telcon date 4/25
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cwebber strugee, \o/
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tantek PROPOSED: Next telcon 2017-04-25
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eprodrom tantek: any objections?
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cwebber +1
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ben_thatmustbeme +1
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aaronpk +1
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rhiaro +1
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eprodrom +1
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rhiaro will be in full thesis-is-due mode
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sandro +1
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rhiaro maybe incoherant
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tantek RESOLVED: Next telcon 2017-04-25
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eprodrom tantek: hopefully we'll have more PRs then
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cwebber thanks!
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tantek q?
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eprodrom tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 50 karma in this channel (329 overall)
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eprodrom cwebber, so, what I was going to ask is, once we get test suite and implementation report template up
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eprodrom ...we make a page on the wiki linking to issues for each fedsocweb app asking for implementation
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cwebber eprodrom: ah yeah
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eprodrom Diaspora, Elgg, GNU Social, Mastodon, pump.io, rstatus, GNU MediaGoblin, Owncloud maybe?
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro, go for it!
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cwebber eprodrom: yes sounds good
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tantek trackbot, end meeting
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trackbot Zakim, list attendees
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Zakim As of this point the attendees have been tantek, aaronpk, rhiaro, cwebber, ben_thatmustbeme, sandro, csarven, eprodrom
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trackbot is ending a teleconference.
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eprodrom Friendica or whatever it's called now
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trackbot RRSAgent, please draft minutes
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RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/04/11-social-minutes.html trackbot
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trackbot RRSAgent, bye
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RRSAgent I see no action items
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cwebber eprodrom, sounds good to me
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strugee eprodrom: add Redmatrix to the list which is kinda but not really the same as Friendica I think?
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eprodrom I think there might be some value in numbers
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cwebber eprodrom: going to finish laying down the scaffolding for writing the tests and send you an email, I should be able to get it to you tomorrow
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eprodrom strugee: exactly
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cwebber on how to get things up and running
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cwebber I think Redmatrix and Friendica are now independent
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cwebber but yeha
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strugee yeah they are
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cwebber eprodrom: I agree re: value in numbers
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strugee developed be the same people though
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cwebber well, founded by at least
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strugee unless something changed
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strugee ^^^ right
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tantek if the codebases are different (and open source?) then we should be able to count them as different implementations
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tantek for CR purposes
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cwebber they are different
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eprodrom https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/ActivityPub_network
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eprodrom cwebber, strugee ^^
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strugee thx eprodrom
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strugee https://github.com/pump-io/pump.io/issues/1241 is the pump.io issue
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strugee can't add it myself since I don't have a wiki account
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eprodrom strugee: how about that? https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/ActivityPub_network#pump.io
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eprodrom strugee: you should get a wiki account!
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strugee eprodrom: neat, thanks
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strugee eprodrom: last I checked it was limited to WG members?
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eprodrom https://www.w3.org/accounts/request
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eprodrom strugee: I don't think so?
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strugee > This wiki is restricted to members of one or several W3C groups.
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cwebber maybe time to start using the CG wiki already ;)
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strugee oh no I see
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eprodrom cwebber: do you know where the MediaGoblin issue is for AP support offhand?
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strugee neat
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eprodrom cwebber I don't see an issue at https://issues.mediagoblin.org/search?q=activitypub clearly labelled for implementation
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cwebber eprodrom: https://issues.mediagoblin.org/ticket/5503
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tantek struggee - pretty sure anyone can create a W3C account for the purposes of contributing to the wiki
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cwebber now there is one :)
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strugee eprodrom: account signup workd, thanks
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tantek if you run into any trouble with that, please let me know!
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cwebber I think informally we've just agreed in meetings it was happening, etc
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cwebber but having the ticket open is good :)
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strugee tantek: yeah I just got one, the login page is mislabled
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eprodrom cwebber: should I open one?
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tantek I'd rather we just keep things on the W3C's main wiki rather than fork-off to a separate CG wiki
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cwebber eprodrom: I just linked it
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cwebber https://issues.mediagoblin.org/ticket/5503
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tantek that way we get continuity with SWWG wiki
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tantek strugee great
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strugee cwebber: you should update https://wiki.mediagoblin.org/GSOC_2017#Port_federation_code_to_ActivityPub too
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cwebber strugee: we didn't get any gsoc submissions for it this year anyway
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wilkie I wonder how many of mastodon's 450 open issues are solvable by using a spec here instead of ostatus
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strugee ah
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strugee wilkie++
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Loqi wilkie has 41 karma
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cwebber probably for the best, it's probably something I should just do at this point
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eprodrom wilkie: !!!!
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wilkie eprodrom: !!!! :)
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tantek lol
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tantek eprodrom don't hold back now https://twitter.com/evanpro/status/851155551325229058 ???
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Loqi [@evanpro] I'm happy for Mastodon's success but disappointed they didn't use the modern protocol ActivityPub we developed at W3C. All I have to say.
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wilkie it's what we are all thinking!
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rhiaro I followed a bunch of people on mastodon, and the follow buttons went blue, but they're not listed in my followers and none of their posts show up. I'm sure AP would not have this problem :)
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strugee ^^^ SAME
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rhiaro no pressure
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KevinMarks Well one of them is solvable using websub
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eprodrom tantek: you would be surprised how many nastygrams I've gotten about that
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aaronpk whoa really?
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tantek wat seriously?!? wow
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strugee :/
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eprodrom Yeah
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tantek eprodrom: do they know WHO they are talking to? ;)
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eprodrom I think not
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aaronpk lol
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tantek ROFL
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aaronpk you should change your twitter bio to "invented mastodon"
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wilkie can't blame people for being proud. ostatus is still hard work to get right... too hard.
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eprodrom aaronpk: haw!
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rhiaro hahaha
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sandro ! :-)
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Loqi hehe
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eprodrom wilkie: it is so hard!
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rhiaro eprodrom: AS2 is ready for staging as PR right?
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tantek checks Wikipedia
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eprodrom and you still can't do private distribution
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eprodrom agonizing
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wilkie mastodon is a "simple" provider... I'll look at the code and see what could be done to implement activitypub for the stuff they already support
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eprodrom rhiaro: no, I need to make the change we approved today
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cwebber wilkie: :D
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eprodrom rhiaro: gimme a couple of minutes
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wilkie they already pass the websub validator haha
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cwebber wilkie: did you see this thread?
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cwebber https://toot.cat/@cwebber/119921
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Loqi [Christopher Allan Webber] @Gargron @tsyesika Thanks for the response! AP is modular; though you get the client-to-server "for free" (as in, once you have the rest it's easy to have) you don't need to use it; you can use just client-to-server, or just server-to-server. That's...
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cwebber ( and previously https://mastodon.social/@VamptVo/921853 )
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wilkie pft. I'll implement it.
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KevinMarks https://github.com/tootsuite/mastodon/issues/177#issuecomment-292999447
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rhiaro okay eprodrom, just ping me when it's ready
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cwebber wilkie: some very bare stuff here https://github.com/tootsuite/mastodon/tree/master/app/views/activitypub
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cwebber wilkie: \o/ \o/ \o/
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cwebber plz do
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strugee cwebber:
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strugee > just client-to-server, or just server-to-server.
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strugee I don't think so? not according to the spec
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strugee https://w3c.github.io/activitypub/#specification-profiles
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cwebber strugee: yes, we were very careful to permit that
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strugee > All servers claiming conformance to this specification are required to implement the [c2s] protocol, and may optionally implement the [s2s].
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cwebber oh wait
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cwebber shit
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eprodrom I want to do API facades for Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, etc.
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cwebber how did that happen
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wilkie KevinMarks: yes yes, I saw your comment. I don't think account migration is solved when you have to trust the server you are migrating from. I don't have an obvious reason other than the trust issue why redirects don't work for the trusted case.
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eprodrom Although most of them have TOS problems with API facades
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cwebber I don't remember there being required to implement the c2s
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sandro +1 API facades!
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rhiaro :o
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strugee cwebber: you can do it for all intents and purposes but _technically_ you're not conformant
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strugee sorry, thought that was intentional! otherwise I would've filed an issue :(
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rhiaro dangit how did I let that slip through, that is something I feel strongly about
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tantek what is an API façade?
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cwebber I don't think I wrote that
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cwebber I wonder where it came from
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tantek so that servers can act as clients to other servers?
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tantek *dependably
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strugee tantek: presumably wrap silos' APIs in the AP API so conformant clients can talk to silos
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tantek maybe that's why?
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tantek strugee oh! Ok like what Brid.gy and silo.pub do
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cwebber oh no
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tantek (wrap silo interactions with Webmention and Micropub respectively)
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strugee tantek: yea
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KevinMarks That issue likely needs breaking into pieces.
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tantek which issue? are we multithreading now?
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tantek cwebber, you first, what's the oh no, and can I help?
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KevinMarks The mastodon migration one, sorry
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cwebber tantek: somehow there's a requirement that servers must implement client to server
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cwebber if they're also to implement server to server
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cwebber I have no idea how that got in there
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cwebber in the specification profiles
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KevinMarks Can you git blame to see?
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eprodrom rhiaro: are you going to update the ns document with a link? If so, whither?
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tantek cwebber really? I thought you deliberately wanted that (I have a vague memory of when you explained to me how your vision of federation worked, it required that, maybe 2ish years ago?)
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tantek I could be wrong, but that's what I'm recalling
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rhiaro a link to the CG? eprodrom
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rhiaro (does anyone have a link to swicg handy?)
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eprodrom https://www.w3.org/community/swicg/
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tantek nice eprodrom
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tantek checks our home page
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eprodrom rhiaro: should it be a page specifically about AS2 extensions?
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cwebber oh wow
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cwebber tantek: nope
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cwebber this is from Owen Shepherd
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cwebber way back in the original document
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tantek cwebber, ok then I misunderstood
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cwebber that's where it came from
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cwebber somehow I missed that in doing these edits
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cwebber criminy
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tantek cwebber, let's file an issue and get cracking on it
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sandro I'm very surprised to see https://www.w3.org/community/activitypub/ from 2012. At least Evan is chair.
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tantek uhhh eprodrom ^^^ is that still an open CG?
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tantek or is that one of the ones we resolved to close / redirect to SWICG?
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eprodrom tantek: it should probably be closed
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tantek looks for an ostatus CG
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tantek ;)
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eprodrom I think so yes
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sandro The group we want is https://www.w3.org/community/swicg/
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eprodrom tantek: there was an ostatus cg
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eprodrom There is not a wiki for the swicg though
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sandro It's very hard to tell which CGs are real and which are not. :-(
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tantek eprodrom: I recall in Lisbon we decided to just re-use w3.org/wiki/
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Loqi aww, cheer up
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tantek yeah there it is https://www.w3.org/community/ostatus/
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rhiaro I added a link to the CG where the CG is mentioned https://www.w3.org/ns/activitystreams#extensions
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aaronpk i thought all CGs got a wiki automatically
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tantek sandro, perhaps the descriptions of the old/closed CGs could be updated to point to https://www.w3.org/community/swicg/ ?
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tantek aaronpk: it may be one of the checkboxes upon creation
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tantek not sure
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cwebber rhiaro: tantek: https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/184
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cwebber maybe it's too late to deal with? :\
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cwebber it seems hard to change this non-normatively?
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tantek indeed since it is about conformance
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cwebber shit
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cwebber I wish we had caught this before the meeting today
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wilkie if you don't technically have to do it, and then some people don't do it, do they still conform??
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tantek cwebber same
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eprodrom so, how about language like this: https://gist.github.com/evanp/0c4e269b7adadce8811015312326f8e1
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tantek wilkie do you mean practically? because per spec "technically" you do
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eprodrom rhiaro: ^^^ does that sound about right?
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strugee wilkie: pragmatically yes but technically no
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eprodrom Assuming that that empty wiki page will become something
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wilkie hm
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rhiaro looks good eprodrom. Assuming the CG chairs approve that wiki URL
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cwebber seems good
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tantek might be good to start a stub page there :)
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eprodrom oh yeah
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tantek https://www.w3.org/wiki/Activity_Streams_extensions
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eprodrom tantek: I just added a sentence
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rhiaro I think jasnell had a couple of test extensions
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wilkie you conform to the protocol enough that people can talk with you without problem, but you technically don't validate against the spec on a technicality. dang, seems like a good thing to clarify/change then.
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rhiaro and I can dig mine up
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strugee not the end of the world though
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strugee at least you can practically conform
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strugee enough for interoperability
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cwebber "you won't conform on that standpoint but the editors are fine with it" ;p
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wilkie yeah, true :) that's all that matters
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tantek cwebber, rhiaro let's get the editorial AP CR updated published, and then address issue 184 please
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strugee lol
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cwebber tantek: what I fear is that we're too late to be able to do another CR that has normative changes if we wait till the 25th?
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tantek cwebber, could you propose an edit in the issue?
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tantek and then we can at least get folks to +1 / thumbs up it
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tantek yes this may merit a special telcon
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tantek just for time purposes
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cwebber tantek: yeah I'll propose the edit right now
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tantek thank you
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cwebber tantek: rhiaro: eprodrom: strugee: wilkie: https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/184#issuecomment-293326115
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wilkie that looks good at a glance
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wilkie I'd +1 that change
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strugee cwebber: proposed a rewording but generally LGTM
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sandro FWIW, I don't like the idea of the wiki page.
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tantek for extensions?
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sandro Right. I see wiki's as disliked / too-old-school now. Repos are cool now.
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tantek having an informal wiki page doesn't stop others from having more formal extension registry etc. places / mechanisms
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tantek lol
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tantek repos not on w3.org right?
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tantek ;)
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tantek cwebber LGTM
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sandro Compromise, "page" so we can make it whatever we want later, okay?
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ben_thatmustbeme redmatrix (now hubzilla) i believe is still heavily like friendica's code base. last time i looked they will occasionally borrow port commits directly between them
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tantek sandro, more importantly, are you following the normative issue cwebber just discovered for AP? https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/184
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ben_thatmustbeme but that was some time ago
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ben_thatmustbeme (sorry, just reading back a bit now)
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eprodrom rhiaro: OK, I pushed the update
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tantek ALL: please comment / thumbs up/down on https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/184 so we can see where the group is
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tantek sandro, we may need to schedule a special telcon to resolve this for AP for a normative CR iteration
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sandro looking
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tantek cwebber, do you want to take a day or two to do a fine-tooth review checking for anything else like that?
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tantek note that it's often hard to find these kinds of details *before* creating a test suite, so it's not surprising that you're finding an issue like this
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tantek though we're trying to move as swiftly as we can, that's one of the express purposes (and usual outcomes) of going through CR with test suites and implementations (iterating), exposing and fixing previously unseen/unrevealed normative issues.
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tantek it's ok to be optimistic that we don't have any/many, but we should be clear about expectations, especially since we are still expecting more/new implementations from outside the group (which tend to be a particularly high source of such discoveries - devs less familiar with the spec and its evolution as it were)
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cwebber tantek: yeah, unfortunately AP is coming together right at the end of the (extended) clock
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tantek regardless, I'm ok with making a special telcon for this, and then seeing where we are also on the 25th
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tantek and then again when we have complete test suites for clients and servers
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sandro I think a special telecon is a good idea, given the deadlines and current energy on AP. Not yet seeing anything that I think *requires* it though. issue#184 is super cloudy, but I think it can probably squeek by as editorial. It doesn't actually require changing code, really.
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cwebber sandro: if anything it makes certain things compliant that weren't yet, but doesn't make anything non-compliant that already was
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tantek sandro I would agree if it wasn't for an apparent either disagreement or change or contrast of intention between editors Owen and Chris
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cwebber yeah one of the big initiatives of the group was to break up AP so that you could use things independently
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tantek cwebber, do you think that was Owen's intention? or accidental?
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cwebber having that old phrasing was an oversight :\
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strugee tantek: maybe just CC oshepherd on GitHub and ask?
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cwebber tantek: I think Owen probably meant what it said
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tantek cwebber ^^ ?
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tantek cwebber, agreed re: initiatives of the group
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cwebber Owen's been out of it for some time, the vision of AP as being a "do all of that stuff" comes from looking at Pump.IO
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cwebber but obviously since then we've put in a lot of effort... heck, that was even why rhiaro came out and stayed with me for a week
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cwebber so yes there's been a shift in intent
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sandro posts comment documenting why this isn't substantive, probably
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tantek agrees with sandro's finessing, still good that we call it out
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cwebber thanks sandro
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strugee side note: fyi @all, filed https://github.com/tootsuite/mastodon/issues/1557 to track AP support in Mastodon
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eprodrom strugee: can you update the wiki page?
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tantek sandro I feel like this kind of question should have come up before at W3C
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eprodrom strugee: I just added one for GNU Social https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/ActivityPub_network#GNU_Social
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strugee eprodrom: yeah, was about to do that and got distracted by the AP issue
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strugee thx for the link
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tantek that is, a normative change that does not impact any existing conformant implementations, does it still need a new CR with new clock?
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tantek I feel like that's a judgment call that may have already been made (hopefully in the way you indicate)
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tantek and thus it would be good to cite that so we can move forward. hoping you can dig that up with Ralph et al
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tantek you = sandro
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cwebber rhiaro: sandro: should we wait on this being reviewed by Ralph before we push the new CR anyway?
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cwebber since the issue seems to be coming to consensus
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tantek push the new CR anyway IMO
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tantek let's keep moving forward. if it is editorial we can do another editorial CR
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strugee eprodrom: I can't log in. I think probably the wiki note about being restricted to WG members is accurate
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tantek s/push the new CR anyway IMO/push the new CR anyway since we have a WG resolution on that!
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cwebber tantek: ah right, WG resolution before pushing a CR
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cwebber I guess taht's important ;)
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tantek yes. let's keep it moving!
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tantek strugee - the W3C wiki is definitely not restricted to just WG members so I'm not sure what's going on
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sandro strugee, what's your w3.org login? pm if you want
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tantek struggee you just created your account right?
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tantek thanks sandro.
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strugee sandro: it's strugee on there too
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strugee tantek: yep
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ben_thatmustbeme i thought they changed that, and it is limited to w3c members and IEs of any groups
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ben_thatmustbeme because the wiki got defaced so bad last year
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tantek I trust sandro to get to the bottom of it :)
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strugee login page says > This wiki is restricted to members of one or several W3C groups.
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strugee which sounds like it means WGs? idk
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strugee anyway didn't mean to derail the CR discussion
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tantek strugee did you join the SWICG?
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tantek you should be able to do that
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tantek here: https://www.w3.org/community/swicg/
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strugee tantek: yeah I did
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Loqi it is probable
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strugee lol thanks Loqi
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tantek heh
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tantek then you're in a "W3C group" as it were of at least some form, so that should be fine IMO
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strugee yah
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ben_thatmustbeme no, community groups are open access, the login isn't shared completely, i've managed to get desync between them
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sandro (I've ask systems folks; but they're not always prompt in replying.)
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ben_thatmustbeme some CGs have wikis that look like they were set up by request
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strugee sandro++
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Loqi sandro has 34 karma in this channel (39 overall)
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tantek sandro I always use #sysreq for that
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tantek which is usually pretty prompt
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: yeah there are some legacy wiki silos out there
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tantek that end up dying, unmaintained and abandoned
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tantek this was also a problem for former IGs (Interest Groups)
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ben_thatmustbeme indeed, i remember someone trying to get a hold of eprodrom recently to request access to the ostatus wiki
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sandro tantek, I used &sysreq which is the team version; should have same response time. We'll see.
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eprodrom ben_thatmustbeme: I am pretty sure it was the Mastodon dude
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strugee ah yeah ben_thatmustbeme
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ben_thatmustbeme ahh, okay
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strugee eprodrom: I don't think so? because we were discussing Mastodon's use of OStatus and I was like "it's a bummer"
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strugee and from their reply it didn't seem like they were associated
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strugee maybe not though; I don't remember very well
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eprodrom I don't know
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strugee shrugs
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strugee if you got an email or something that's probably way more concrete than my vague memory
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eprodrom Yeah it was an email
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eprodrom I should dig it up
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eprodrom But it's not really that important
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Loqi yea
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ben_thatmustbeme <drymer> pumabot tell evanpro Hi, I'm drymer (you can pm me in this server) and I wanted to ask for access to https://www.w3.org/community/ostatus/. Not for me but for mmn-o or mattl, both gnu social developers and on this server, so you can also ping them. If there's any problem on doing it, please tell some of us.
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ben_thatmustbeme from #pump.io
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strugee ahhh
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strugee thx ben_thatmustbeme
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ben_thatmustbeme i pointed them to the SWICG, don't know if they every joined
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tantek sandro, are you able to edit CG descriptions to explicitly note when they are closed and to direct people to another CG for follow-up?
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mattl fwiw, i joined that group
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aaronpk mattl: \o/
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tantek \o/
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mattl that's my GNU social work done for 2017
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sandro tantek, no, I have no special priv's on CGs
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aaronpk mattl: i bet the last couple weeks have been "fun" for you :-)
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sandro tantek, that has to go to sysrew
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mattl aaronpk: it's like seeing photos of a party you organized but didn't attend
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tantek mattl, in that case, be sure to file your TPS report ;)
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aaronpk ?
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ben_thatmustbeme hah
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ben_thatmustbeme PC Load Letter?!
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mattl it has actually managed to get me a little bit out of my awful mood though. i basically didn't get out of bed for two months prior to this :/
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ajordan mattl: :(
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ajordan <3
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mattl yeah, i'm at my office now working on the movie again
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tantek mattl: fedmo, dfn, that feeling that somewhere there is discussion on a federated server that you're missing out on because, well, not everything is federated everywhere and you're not sure who you have to follow or @ to actually see such discussions
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eprodrom mattl: hey, check out https://git.gnu.io/gnu/gnu-social/issues/256
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mattl eprodrom: i saw it :) working on getting you something
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eprodrom FEDMO
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mattl NO U
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ajordan mo' protocols, mo' problems :P
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aaronpk mopromopro
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ajordan aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 73 karma in this channel (1280 overall)
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ajordan I literally laughed out loud at that one :'D
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tantek I read that as "mo promo pro" ?
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aaronpk also true
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mattl pro dro mou, or something
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ajordan oh tantek I read it as that originally... didn't even get the original joke lol
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mattl eprodrom: best way to get a PDF to you?
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eprodrom evan@prodromou.name
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eprodrom Unless it's too big for email
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mattl nah, sent. 300kb
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ajordan cwebber: https://twitter.com/dustyweb/status/851847009392832512 - not sure why you said ".@strugee2" but it didn't work
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Loqi [@dustyweb] .@strugee2 filed a bug for ActivityPub support in Mastodon https://github.com/tootsuite/mastodon/issues/1557 Would be really nice!
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ajordan I think Twitter fixed that bug
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mattl just that form I constantly forget to get you to sign
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ajordan that let you prefix mentions with .
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ajordan hey, did y'all ever decide what to do wrt upcoming CRs and https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/184?
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Loqi Tantekelik made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2017-04-11]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=102369&oldid=102350
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Loqi Rhiaro made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2017-04-11]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=102353&oldid=102352
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Loqi Aaronpk made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2017-04-11]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=102367&oldid=102353
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Loqi Eprodrom made 6 edits to [[Socialwg/ActivityPub network]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=102381&oldid=0
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cwebber nice convo happening already on the Mastodon issue
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eprodrom Yeah I saw
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eprodrom wilkie++
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Loqi wilkie has 42 karma
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eprodrom cwebber: are there other platforms that should be on https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/ActivityPub_network ?
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ajordan eprodrom: if we're already including ownCloud we should probably include Nextcloud too
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eprodrom ajordan: true that
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ajordan eprodrom: https://prism-break.org/en/all/#social-networks also has some others
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wilkie cwebber: https://activitypub.rocks/implementation-report/ this link is broken I think?
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ajordan buddycloud and movim both apparently run on top of XMPP, not sure if we care about them since that's such a radical departure from the AP model
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eprodrom Great, thanks
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wilkie cwebber: is there an activitypub implementation that's current to spec?
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eprodrom I wonder if it makes sense for tent.io
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ajordan ooo, good question
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cwebber wilkie: wow nice job me
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ajordan I think Tent uses a custom protocol right? idk what it looks like generally
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cwebber wilkie: can you tell who's using quasiquote
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wilkie I haven't kept up with tent, but that's my understanding too
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wilkie cwebber: :)
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ajordan wilkie: re: current implementation, soci-el and the other one I think are up to spec
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ajordan or at least they were recently
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ajordan "the other one" = cwebber's server implementation whose name I forget
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wilkie I was looking here https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/ActivityPub_network
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ajordan wilkie: ah yeah
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ajordan I don't think there are any implementations in the wild yet
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ajordan should we add cwebber's stuff to that page? idk
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cwebber wilkie: fixed
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cwebber thanx
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eprodrom ajordan: I think tent is like, this is the protocol, and here is a reference implementation
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Loqi Eprodrom made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/ActivityPub network]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=102383&oldid=102381
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cwebber wilkie: so yeah Pubstrate is up to spec, or should be
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cwebber wilkie: lunchtime brb
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eprodrom cwebber: is there a live pubstrate server somewhere?
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wilkie dang I'm so sorry but I always read that as prostrate
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wilkie but thanks, I'll add that to the list to validate against
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cwebber eprodrom: nooo
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cwebber eprodrom: shortly tho!
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wilkie cwebber: thanks
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ajordan eprodrom: yeah sounds right
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ajordan eprodrom: according to https://tent.io/docs/ their API isn't stable
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ajordan lol I should take a lunch break too
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ajordan leaving, back in ~10 minutes
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ajordan alrighty then
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ben_thatmustbeme created the minutes, didn't review or edit, just posted it for now
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ajordan ben_thatmustbeme++
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme has 67 karma in this channel (197 overall)
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tantek next telcon agenda is up - please add / expand as needed! https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-04-25
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sandro So, we're trusting we wont be restarting CR?
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tantek sandro I think I asked you to see if this situation already has precedent? (because it feels familiar / common)
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tantek looking for log link
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ajordan lol. wish I'd noticed that bug before the meeting. sorry :/
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tantek sandro https://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2017-04-11#t1491930653538 and next few lines
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Loqi [tantek] sandro I feel like this kind of question should have come up before at W3C
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sandro There's another reason to have Director's Decisions be public, like court decisions, so one could search and see. :-)
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tantek indeed
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sandro Anyway, we can't get an answer today.
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tantek ok let's move forward with the assumption that you'll get a positive answer from Ralph tomorrow
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tantek and if not, then we can schedule a telcon accordingly
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tantek cwebber: ^^^ FYI
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tantek (re: AP restart CR or not)
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sandro technically a telcon needs 7 days notice. Arguably that could be waived if no one objects.
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cwebber tantek: cool
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tantek updates our homepage
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tantek and done
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Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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Loqi bye
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ajordan hey before I forget: can someone with a wiki account fix the "repo" link next to ActivityPub under Candidate Recommendations on the wiki home page?
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ajordan it points to the AS2 repo, not AP
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sandro okay, doing it
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ajordan thanks sandro
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ajordan if you hear back from the sysops people will you ping me?
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sandro I'll move it to email and cc you
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sandro Alternatively, have we talked about you joining the WG?
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ajordan sandro: sounds good
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ajordan re: WG, no
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ajordan we haven't discussed it
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sandro Do you want to? Do you work for someone who is or "should be" a W3C member?
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ajordan I don't work for anyone currently
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cwebber sandro: one question
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ajordan I'm taking a gap year before college
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cwebber does joining the WG disqualify ajordan's implementations from counting as independent implementations :P
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sandro no, cwebber, it's fine.
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tantek wat
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ajordan I'd have to join as an Invited Expert but the only work I've done is on pump.io
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cwebber for some reason I thought that was the current rule, that we needed implementations from outside the socialwg
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ajordan so I don't think I'd qualify as an "expert" :)
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cwebber ajordan: you're as much an expert as Jessica and I were when we joined
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tantek cwebber, it's not hard & fast like that, unlike the 2+ rule.
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ajordan heh, ok :)
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cwebber tantek: cool, I'm super +1 on ajordan joining then
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sandro ajordan, the term isn't a perfect fit. it's more like "invited person", but that doesn't sound as cool.
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tantek we've been holding ourselves to a higher bar, by distinguishing editor vs wg vs outside impls
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cwebber tantek: aha
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ajordan an neat sandro
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ajordan might as well apply then :-)
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tantek cwebber, that's my, Sandro etc. experience coming in, especially in comparison to some other WGs (who shall remain unnamed but may have overlapping tech :P)
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tantek this WG is different than most at W3C in that most (nearly all?) impls are from invited experts and not W3C members
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tantek thus it really helps our case (for positive PR votes by the AC etc.) to demonstrate above and beyond
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tantek especially should we or someone else try to propose another SWWG in the future
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cwebber gotcha cool, thanks
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cwebber yeah
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tantek one of the reasons we were very deliberate about Micropub client *and* server test suites, and then reports from those etc.
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cwebber tantek: it's weird, that also means that many of the participants like me *know* it's different than other groups, but have never experienced others, so
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tantek cwebber, you're better off
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ajordan lol I feel the same cwebber
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sandro ajordan, try to edit the wiki now. They told me how to control access and I added you.
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ajordan sandro: please stand by
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ajordan I still get "incorrect password entered" on the login page
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ajordan I do see "trusted wiki users" on my profile on w3.org though
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sandro So the error's different from what it used to be? Try shift-reload in case something's cached in the HTML?
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ajordan no that's the error I got before too
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ajordan I assumed it was just an ACL problem but that the web interface couldn't handle displaying that properly
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ajordan I'll try purging my cache
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ajordan didn't work
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ajordan lemme try resetting my password? maybe something got out of sync
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ajordan oh actually you know what it might be? my password is 128 characters long
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ajordan I wonder if the wiki's breaking because of that
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ajordan like maybe the password gets truncated somewhere and there's an inconsistency because of that?
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sandro Ha!!!!
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sandro yeah, I bet.
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ben_thatmustbeme lol
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sandro I'd stick with 'password' if I were you
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ajordan hahaha
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aaronpk or "correct horse battery staple" if you're feeling bold
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Loqi rofl
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ajordan sandro: that's horribly insecure!! better go with 'password123' instead
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ben_thatmustbeme https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9vABQFuItA
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tantek sandro I literally saw an ep of "Green Arrow" last night where PASSWORD was the the password
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sandro my w3c password was 'pw2' for a good while (back in 2001) because systems were so flakey I kept having to change it trying to get it to work, and finally it worked and I didnt want to touch it.
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aaronpk hahahaha
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tantek and appeared to be deliberately so, by very technical person, so as to be guessable by his friend in the know
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sandro Of course in those days you could find out a password easily by watching the wifi
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tantek when others would suspect a much stronger pw
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ajordan lolll
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sandro "Extended Version" indeed
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ajordan hunter2 is also a good choice
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ajordan http://bash.org/?244321
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sandro :-) always a good one
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ajordan oh boy
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ajordan now I don't know what my password is
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ajordan *sigh*
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ajordan I'll just use the password reset thing even though I'm *already logged in* lol
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cwebber rhiaro: I closed out 180 now
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cwebber https://w3c.github.io/activitypub/#actor-as2-properties
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cwebber rhiaro: wdyt?
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cwebber ajordan: ^^^
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ajordan LGTM
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ajordan sandro: wiki login doesn't work. password's only 32 characters now, and I purged caches and tried logging in in a Private Browsing windows to prevent interference from cookies
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ajordan sorry for the hassle :(
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aaronpk thepassword change takes a few minutes so give it some time and try again
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ajordan ah forgot to mention it's been just under 20 minutes
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sandro Also, I'd really recommend trying one 16 chars or less.
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sandro It's not just the two auth systems but the federation system between them that might have limits
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ajordan right
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ajordan I'll reset to 16
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ajordan will special characters break it?
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tantek passwords--
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Loqi passwords has -1 karma in this channel (-9 overall)
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ajordan tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 51 karma in this channel (330 overall)
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sandro They might. Stick to ones and zeros. :-) No, um, stick to alphanumeric for this test, maybe? If that doesn't work, can you email sysreq@w3.org ? Mention I added you to Trusted Wiki Users & cc me.
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sandro (I need to go offline for a bit)
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ajordan ok
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ajordan np
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ajordan thanks so much sandro
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sandro sure, thanks for your help with getting this stuff implemented
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tantek same same. have a good day all!
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ajordan of course :)
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ajordan you too tantek!
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ajordan sandro: I know you're afk but when you get back: I'm filling out the Invited Expert form
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ajordan should I put "pump.io" as an affiliated organization? or is that question more about legal entities?
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sandro apparently i'm not fully afk - um, I dunno what pump.io is really. basically, just be clear somewhere on the form about your gap year status, and what your connection pump.io is.
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ajordan sandro: pump.io = software project
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ajordan written by Evan originally - ActivityPub is based on its protocol
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ajordan I'll just make a note of it "somewhere"
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sandro but is there any legal org behind it? are there servers someone's paying for?
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ajordan not really
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sandro ok
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ajordan technically we'll be affiliated with Software Freedom Conservancy soon, which is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit? but they don't really have anything to do with the project itself, just handle some legal stuff
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sandro make sense
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sandro makes sense I mean
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sandro :-)
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ajordan coolio :)
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ajordan sandro: submitted
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ajordan \o/
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cwebber rhiaro: http://dustycloud.org/misc/activitypub-cr-2017-04-11.html
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