#social 2017-04-11

2017-04-11 UTC
wseltzer, timbl, KevinMarks and geppy joined the channel
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Loqi
[Julien Genestoux] WebSub
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cwebber
\o/
tantek joined the channel
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tantek
good morning #social
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tantek
"You are the first person to join the meeting. Please stand by." been a while since I heard that
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tantek
trackbot, start meeting
RRSAgent joined the channel
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trackbot
is preparing a teleconference.
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trackbot
RRSAgent, make logs public
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RRSAgent
I have made the request, trackbot
Zakim joined the channel
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trackbot
Zakim, this will be SOCL
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Zakim
ok, trackbot
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trackbot
Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
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trackbot
Date: 11 April 2017
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tantek
present+
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tantek
*crickets*
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aaronpk
present+
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rhiaro
present+
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cwebber
present+
eprodrom joined the channel
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cwebber
missed the last couple meetings so is going to stay out of the vote, since can't accurately review
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cwebber
nonetheless I am present+ :)
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tantek
chair: tantek
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rhiaro
zakim, pick a victim
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Zakim
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose tantek
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cwebber
I can scribe for the non-AP parts
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cwebber
oh ok!
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sandro
present+
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tantek
scribenick: eprodrom
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csarven
present+
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aaronpk
we should get Loqi to pick scribes
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eprodrom
TOPIC: approval of minutes
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rhiaro
+1 4th, +0 28th (wasn't there)
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eprodrom
+1
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csarven
is present via IRC only
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eprodrom
present+
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cwebber
yup
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cwebber
+0
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eprodrom
TOPIC: update on PRs
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eprodrom
tantek: let's start with AS2
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rhiaro
Yeah I did
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eprodrom
tantek: we have two new issues
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cwebber
yes I can scribe
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cwebber
scribenick: cwebber
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tantek
scribenick: cwebber
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cwebber
eprodrom: forgot I had actual speaking today. we have 2 new issues on AS2
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cwebber
eprodrom: one is geojson one, interesting but may be an extension / namespace thing rather than change to as2
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cwebber
eprodrom: also one on extending what the attribution mechanism is. I don't think either one is core
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tantek
issue URLs?
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trackbot
doesn't understand that ISSUE command.
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cwebber
eprodrom: geospatial stuff, we've all kind of gone with covering the top level of an object and then expect extensions to ...
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cwebber
eprodrom: first is around extensions around geojson one, second is around attribution/licensing
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cwebber
eprodrom: for second, Creative Commons already has a vocab, maybe show an example of using those
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cwebber
notes +1 on using ccREL as extension
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cwebber
eprodrom: my feeling is these are outside of the scope of AS2... if not outside of scope, good fit for extension
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cwebber
q+
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Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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tantek
ack cwebber
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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eprodrom
cwebber: +1 eprodrom. GeoJSON is a great example for an extension, ccREL has already done a lot of work handling licensing.
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eprodrom
cwebber: if we've gone to the trouble of including extensions, these are good examples of using extensions.
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cwebber
scribenick: cwebber
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csarven
Yea, good candidates for extensions. Not core.
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cwebber
tantek: ok, is there a place where we can have people look at a list of extensions we can encourage for reuse?
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Zakim
sees rhiaro on the speaker queue
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cwebber
eprodrom: I don't think we have a single place like that, could be a good wiki page. Now that I've said it, I wonder if that's a link we should include in the document
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tantek
ack rhiaro
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber
rhiaro: is this the domain of the community group? we said extensions were part of CG's work
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cwebber
rhiaro: as incubation
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cwebber
eprodrom: I think so
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cwebber
tantek: I think that's another good answer we can add to the issue
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cwebber
tantek: encourage incubation of extensions to the CG
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cwebber
tantek: sounds like we have some good responses, one of which is "great suggestion, would be great as an extension", second is to create a place perhaps on wiki where we can informally have a list of extensions or things underway
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cwebber
tantek: and lastly to encourage list of folks to join the CG and incubate their extensions there
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Zakim
sees rhiaro on the speaker queue
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cwebber
tantek: outside of the GH issues for this spec
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tantek
ack rhiaro
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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eprodrom
q+
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Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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cwebber
rhiaro: I'd say that we don't need to maintain a list of ongoing extensions, because that would go stale, and just say "the CG will provide it"
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tantek
ack eprodrom
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber
eprodrom: what I wanted to ask is should we include that in the text of the document? maybe in the vocab document, say we have a community group that maintains extensions?
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cwebber
sandro: you're certainly not imagining
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cwebber
tantek: I remember you filing an issue
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eprodrom
"Some popular extensions are included in the Activity Streams 2.0 namespace document, and can be reviewed at https://www.w3.org/ns/activitystreams#extensions."
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eprodrom
q+
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Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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cwebber
sandro: looking at spec, see geojson used as an example extension
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sandro
Some popular extensions are included in the Activity Streams 2.0 namespace document, and can be reviewed at https://www.w3.org/ns/activitystreams#extensions.
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tantek
ack eprodrom
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber
eprodrom: if it's ok for our document process, I would love to add a sentence underneath there along the lines of "extensions for AS2 are done in CG" with a link
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rhiaro
+1 what ean said
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cwebber
eprodrom: could be a good way to provide that continuity
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rhiaro
s/ean/evan
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rhiaro
hopefully if the CG changes its name it leaves a forwarding address
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cwebber
sandro: one problem is if we change name of CG maybe link becomes stale...
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cwebber
sandro: currently it doesn't link to the CG
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cwebber
sandro: it says the same space may be used by extensions... [whole quote happens here]
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cwebber
tantek: that seems like a reasonable small edit, to link to the specific CG since we have it
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cwebber
tantek: seems reasonable based on previouss decisions
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cwebber
sandro: in spec or in ?
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cwebber
tantek: in the spec
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cwebber
sandro: it's in the namespace doc right now, not the spec
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sandro
Some popular extensions are included in the Activity Streams 2.0 namespace document, and can be reviewed at https://www.w3.org/ns/activitystreams#extensions.
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cwebber
sandro: but we can change the namespace doc whenever
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cwebber
sandro: here's the line in the line: ^^^
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cwebber
tantek: ok, seems like a reasonable proposal, we can leave it to the CG
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cwebber
tantek: and if the CG terminates, we can say here's where to go from here
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cwebber
tantek: so you're proposing a small edit to the NS document and small edit to the spec itself in the same place that refers to extensions and the CG?
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cwebber
sandro: yes
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cwebber
eprodrom: does that set us back another 2 months
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cwebber
sandro: nope
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cwebber
tantek: is that something we can do and still hit our PR on thurs?
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cwebber
sandro: not sure if it will go in there, maybe if rhiaro has staged a version, but probably
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rhiaro
yeah I haven't staged anything yet
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cwebber
doesn't object
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cwebber
supports even
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cwebber
sandro: another possible thing to do would be at the top of the document, with github link and etc, have a link to extensions that pointed to ns document on extensions
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cwebber
tantek: I'm going to suggest not doing that, and here's why
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cwebber
uhoh I disconnected
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cwebber
someone scribe
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eprodrom
scribenick: eprodrom
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eprodrom
tantek: sometimes people propose extensions without reading the spec
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cwebber
is back
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cwebber
scribenick: cwebber
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tantek
PROPOSED: Resolve AS2 issues 413 414 with sounds like good extensions, but not core spec. Suggest joining SWICG. Edit ns document to link to SWICG. Similar small "Note:" in AS2 in the same place it refers to extensions and the ns doc.
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cwebber
cwebber: +1
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eprodrom
+1
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tantek
RESOLVED: Resolve AS2 issues 413 414 with sounds like good extensions, but not core spec. Suggest joining SWICG. Edit ns document to link to SWICG. Similar small "Note:" in AS2 in the same place it refers to extensions and the ns doc.
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cwebber
tantek: ok so we have only a couple editorial changes to as2, not sure if it will block PR or not but
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cwebber
tantek: what are we waiting for PR on?
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cwebber
sandro: amy submitted transition request on friday so we're waiting for ralph, expecting them to make the decision tomorrow? so we may transition on (friday?)
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cwebber
or was it thursday
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cwebber
tantek: I think that's all for as2
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rhiaro
s/(friday?)/thursday
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cwebber
tantek: let's move on to LDN
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eprodrom
scribenick: eprodrom
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eprodrom
TOPIC: LDN
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csarven
should have checked the agenda
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eprodrom
rhiaro: we are getting reviews, no formal objections, some implementations
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eprodrom
TOPIC: Micropub
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eprodrom
tantek: Ralph filed a security issue
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eprodrom
tantek: aaronpk provided text
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eprodrom
+1
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eprodrom
q+
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Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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tantek
ack eprodrom
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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aaronpk
+1 but i think that was implied because i wrote the text ;-)
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cwebber
I'm still here
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eprodrom
eprodrom: is there a document that we could refer to for security issues in sharing URLs?
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eprodrom
tantek: none comes to mind
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cwebber
give me one more minute
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cwebber
sorry, brain kicking in
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cwebber
it seems fine to me
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eprodrom
TOPIC: WebSub CR
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Loqi
[Julien Genestoux] WebSub
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eprodrom
sandro: it's out this morning
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eprodrom
tantek: congrats to aaronpk and jullien
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eprodrom
sandro: can you link the tweet
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Loqi
[@sandhawke] WebSub, the http Pub/Sub protocol formerly known as PubSubHubbub (PuSH) finally makes it to @W3C Candidate Rec! https://www.w3.org/TR/websub/
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eprodrom
tantek: aaronpk has to stage new pr draft, ralph has to review the edit for micropub
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cwebber
yes
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eprodrom
scribenick: eprodrom
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eprodrom
TOPIC: activitypub
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eprodrom
tantek: how are we doing?
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eprodrom
cwebber: changes to the spec are imminent
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eprodrom
cwebber: we had an extra # char at the end of the profile, inconsistent with AS2
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eprodrom
cwebber: OK since AS2 is authoritative
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eprodrom
cwebber: issues filed since last night
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eprodrom
cwebber: did not document side effects for the ignore verb; would be normative
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eprodrom
cwebber: document Ignore as a MAY
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eprodrom
q+
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Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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tantek
ack eprodrom
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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eprodrom
eprodrom: Mute and Block are important functions
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eprodrom
cwebber: could we include it as a MAY?
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rhiaro
It might be something that implementations decide to do anyway
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rhiaro
hopefully in a consistent way
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eprodrom
tantek: that would be more conservative, include as an extension
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eprodrom
cwebber: the commenter understands they're minor and last-minute
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eprodrom
cwebber: https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/180 is more difficult
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eprodrom
cwebber: we have some leftovers from pump.io
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eprodrom
cwebber: icon is either a link or an URL
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eprodrom
cwebber: what to do?
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eprodrom
cwebber: we have suggested change text
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eprodrom
cwebber: we could drop properties that are in AS2
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eprodrom
q+
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Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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aaronpk
is glad he's muted because that was a very loud sneeze
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eprodrom
tantek: it looks like sandro is in favor of dropping dupes
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eprodrom
tantek: my understanding is that's not a functional change
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eprodrom
rhiaro: I think it's fine
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eprodrom
q-
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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eprodrom
cwebber: this will shorten the doc anyway
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eprodrom
q+
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Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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eprodrom
q-
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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eprodrom
cwebber: "name" is called out as nickname or full name
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tantek
that seems fine to me
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eprodrom
cwebber: I don't see any properties that are restricted or more explicit
strugee joined the channel
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eprodrom
cwebber: should I keep the name one?
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rhiaro
It would be kind of conspicuously absent if it wasn't there
KevinMarks joined the channel
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eprodrom
cwebber: should we keep the one "name" property definition?
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rhiaro
+1 simply listing AS2 ones that are expected
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rhiaro
expected/recommended
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eprodrom
cwebber: no other properties have been changed in AP
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eprodrom
cwebber: with those edits done we should not have any normative changes
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tantek
Keeping this text then? "Implementations SHOULD, in addition, provide the following properties:" ?
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eprodrom
tantek: any other comments
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eprodrom
cwebber: we reviewed with Ralph in email, he said it was OK
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tantek
PROPOSED: Resolve AP issues 180 182 per consensus as discussed above.
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eprodrom
+1
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cwebber
+1
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tantek
RESOLVED: Resolve AP issues 180 182 per consensus as discussed above.
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tantek
PROPOSED: Publish updated AP CR draft with editorial fixes http://w3c.github.io/activitypub/#changes-17-nov-11-apr
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cwebber
+1
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tantek
RESOLUTION: Publish updated AP CR draft with editorial fixes http://w3c.github.io/activitypub/#changes-17-nov-11-apr
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rhiaro
yeah needs publishing by hand, but no director approval, will take care of it
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tantek
RESOLVED: Publish updated AP CR draft with editorial fixes http://w3c.github.io/activitypub/#changes-17-nov-11-apr
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eprodrom
tantek: any other updates on AP
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eprodrom
cwebber: we have an implementation report template
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eprodrom
cwebber: working on the test suite
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eprodrom
cwebber: at worst 2 weeks
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eprodrom
cwebber: may end up an interactive text adventure
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eprodrom
cwebber: testing client-to-server (both sides), server-to-server
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eprodrom
cwebber: might be really hard
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eprodrom
q+
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Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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rhiaro
Same for LDN.. we just did a web form that people fill in after running their client, cwebber
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tantek
ack eprodrom
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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sandro
loves the interactive text adventure that makes you go through the motions of social networking
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eprodrom
cwebber: implementations have been moving along
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eprodrom
cwebber: mastodon has a couple of commits that AP will be coming
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eprodrom
cwebber: AP might be a good next step because it has a test suite
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Zakim
sees aaronpk on the speaker queue
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tantek
ack aaronpk
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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eprodrom
aaronpk: i released the report before the test suite, so any reports had to be reverified
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eprodrom
aaronpk: which was a hassle. So finish the test suite before getting implementation reports.
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eprodrom
aaronpk: take a look at micropub.rocks
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eprodrom
cwebber: strugee said they are hoping to get AP implementation in pump.io this month
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tantek
forgot one important agenda item - next telcon date!
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eprodrom
tantek: before we close, apologies that we are over
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strugee
cwebber: prospects look good to at least have it in progress, if not finished
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strugee
in terms of the time I can allocate to it
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eprodrom
tantek: next telcon date 4/25
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cwebber
strugee, \o/
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tantek
PROPOSED: Next telcon 2017-04-25
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eprodrom
tantek: any objections?
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cwebber
+1
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eprodrom
+1
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rhiaro
will be in full thesis-is-due mode
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rhiaro
maybe incoherant
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tantek
RESOLVED: Next telcon 2017-04-25
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eprodrom
tantek: hopefully we'll have more PRs then
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cwebber
thanks!
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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eprodrom
tantek++
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Loqi
tantek has 50 karma in this channel (329 overall)
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eprodrom
cwebber, so, what I was going to ask is, once we get test suite and implementation report template up
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eprodrom
...we make a page on the wiki linking to issues for each fedsocweb app asking for implementation
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cwebber
eprodrom: ah yeah
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eprodrom
Diaspora, Elgg, GNU Social, Mastodon, pump.io, rstatus, GNU MediaGoblin, Owncloud maybe?
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ben_thatmustbeme
sandro, go for it!
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cwebber
eprodrom: yes sounds good
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tantek
trackbot, end meeting
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trackbot
Zakim, list attendees
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Zakim
As of this point the attendees have been tantek, aaronpk, rhiaro, cwebber, ben_thatmustbeme, sandro, csarven, eprodrom
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trackbot
is ending a teleconference.
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eprodrom
Friendica or whatever it's called now
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trackbot
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
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RRSAgent
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/04/11-social-minutes.html trackbot
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trackbot
RRSAgent, bye
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RRSAgent
I see no action items
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cwebber
eprodrom, sounds good to me
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strugee
eprodrom: add Redmatrix to the list which is kinda but not really the same as Friendica I think?
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eprodrom
I think there might be some value in numbers
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cwebber
eprodrom: going to finish laying down the scaffolding for writing the tests and send you an email, I should be able to get it to you tomorrow
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eprodrom
strugee: exactly
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cwebber
on how to get things up and running
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cwebber
I think Redmatrix and Friendica are now independent
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cwebber
but yeha
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strugee
yeah they are
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cwebber
eprodrom: I agree re: value in numbers
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strugee
developed be the same people though
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cwebber
well, founded by at least
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strugee
unless something changed
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strugee
^^^ right
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tantek
if the codebases are different (and open source?) then we should be able to count them as different implementations
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tantek
for CR purposes
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cwebber
they are different
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eprodrom
cwebber, strugee ^^
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strugee
thx eprodrom
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strugee
can't add it myself since I don't have a wiki account
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eprodrom
strugee: you should get a wiki account!
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strugee
eprodrom: neat, thanks
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strugee
eprodrom: last I checked it was limited to WG members?
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eprodrom
strugee: I don't think so?
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strugee
> This wiki is restricted to members of one or several W3C groups.
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cwebber
maybe time to start using the CG wiki already ;)
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strugee
oh no I see
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eprodrom
cwebber: do you know where the MediaGoblin issue is for AP support offhand?
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strugee
neat
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eprodrom
cwebber I don't see an issue at https://issues.mediagoblin.org/search?q=activitypub clearly labelled for implementation
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tantek
struggee - pretty sure anyone can create a W3C account for the purposes of contributing to the wiki
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cwebber
now there is one :)
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strugee
eprodrom: account signup workd, thanks
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tantek
if you run into any trouble with that, please let me know!
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cwebber
I think informally we've just agreed in meetings it was happening, etc
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cwebber
but having the ticket open is good :)
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strugee
tantek: yeah I just got one, the login page is mislabled
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eprodrom
cwebber: should I open one?
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tantek
I'd rather we just keep things on the W3C's main wiki rather than fork-off to a separate CG wiki
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cwebber
eprodrom: I just linked it
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tantek
that way we get continuity with SWWG wiki
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tantek
strugee great
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cwebber
strugee: we didn't get any gsoc submissions for it this year anyway
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wilkie
I wonder how many of mastodon's 450 open issues are solvable by using a spec here instead of ostatus
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strugee
ah
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strugee
wilkie++
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Loqi
wilkie has 41 karma
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cwebber
probably for the best, it's probably something I should just do at this point
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eprodrom
wilkie: !!!!
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wilkie
eprodrom: !!!! :)
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Loqi
[@evanpro] I'm happy for Mastodon's success but disappointed they didn't use the modern protocol ActivityPub we developed at W3C. All I have to say.
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wilkie
it's what we are all thinking!
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rhiaro
I followed a bunch of people on mastodon, and the follow buttons went blue, but they're not listed in my followers and none of their posts show up. I'm sure AP would not have this problem :)
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strugee
^^^ SAME
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rhiaro
no pressure
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KevinMarks
Well one of them is solvable using websub
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eprodrom
tantek: you would be surprised how many nastygrams I've gotten about that
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aaronpk
whoa really?
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tantek
wat seriously?!? wow
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strugee
:/
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eprodrom
Yeah
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tantek
eprodrom: do they know WHO they are talking to? ;)
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eprodrom
I think not
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aaronpk
you should change your twitter bio to "invented mastodon"
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wilkie
can't blame people for being proud. ostatus is still hard work to get right... too hard.
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eprodrom
aaronpk: haw!
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rhiaro
hahaha
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sandro
! :-)
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Loqi
hehe
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eprodrom
wilkie: it is so hard!
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rhiaro
eprodrom: AS2 is ready for staging as PR right?
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tantek
checks Wikipedia
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eprodrom
and you still can't do private distribution
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eprodrom
agonizing
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wilkie
mastodon is a "simple" provider... I'll look at the code and see what could be done to implement activitypub for the stuff they already support
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eprodrom
rhiaro: no, I need to make the change we approved today
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cwebber
wilkie: :D
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eprodrom
rhiaro: gimme a couple of minutes
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wilkie
they already pass the websub validator haha
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cwebber
wilkie: did you see this thread?
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Loqi
[Christopher Allan Webber] @Gargron @tsyesika Thanks for the response! AP is modular; though you get the client-to-server "for free" (as in, once you have the rest it's easy to have) you don't need to use it; you can use just client-to-server, or just server-to-server. That's...
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wilkie
pft. I'll implement it.
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rhiaro
okay eprodrom, just ping me when it's ready
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cwebber
wilkie: \o/ \o/ \o/
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cwebber
plz do
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strugee
cwebber:
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strugee
> just client-to-server, or just server-to-server.
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strugee
I don't think so? not according to the spec
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cwebber
strugee: yes, we were very careful to permit that
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strugee
> All servers claiming conformance to this specification are required to implement the [c2s] protocol, and may optionally implement the [s2s].
#
cwebber
oh wait
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cwebber
shit
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eprodrom
I want to do API facades for Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, etc.
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cwebber
how did that happen
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wilkie
KevinMarks: yes yes, I saw your comment. I don't think account migration is solved when you have to trust the server you are migrating from. I don't have an obvious reason other than the trust issue why redirects don't work for the trusted case.
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eprodrom
Although most of them have TOS problems with API facades
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cwebber
I don't remember there being required to implement the c2s
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sandro
+1 API facades!
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strugee
cwebber: you can do it for all intents and purposes but _technically_ you're not conformant
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strugee
sorry, thought that was intentional! otherwise I would've filed an issue :(
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rhiaro
dangit how did I let that slip through, that is something I feel strongly about
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tantek
what is an API fa├žade?
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cwebber
I don't think I wrote that
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cwebber
I wonder where it came from
#
tantek
so that servers can act as clients to other servers?
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tantek
*dependably
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strugee
tantek: presumably wrap silos' APIs in the AP API so conformant clients can talk to silos
#
tantek
maybe that's why?
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tantek
strugee oh! Ok like what Brid.gy and silo.pub do
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cwebber
oh no
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tantek
(wrap silo interactions with Webmention and Micropub respectively)
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strugee
tantek: yea
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KevinMarks
That issue likely needs breaking into pieces.
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tantek
which issue? are we multithreading now?
#
tantek
cwebber, you first, what's the oh no, and can I help?
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KevinMarks
The mastodon migration one, sorry
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cwebber
tantek: somehow there's a requirement that servers must implement client to server
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cwebber
if they're also to implement server to server
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cwebber
I have no idea how that got in there
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cwebber
in the specification profiles
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KevinMarks
Can you git blame to see?
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eprodrom
rhiaro: are you going to update the ns document with a link? If so, whither?
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tantek
cwebber really? I thought you deliberately wanted that (I have a vague memory of when you explained to me how your vision of federation worked, it required that, maybe 2ish years ago?)
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tantek
I could be wrong, but that's what I'm recalling
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rhiaro
a link to the CG? eprodrom
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rhiaro
(does anyone have a link to swicg handy?)
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tantek
nice eprodrom
#
tantek
checks our home page
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eprodrom
rhiaro: should it be a page specifically about AS2 extensions?
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cwebber
oh wow
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cwebber
tantek: nope
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cwebber
this is from Owen Shepherd
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cwebber
way back in the original document
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tantek
cwebber, ok then I misunderstood
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cwebber
that's where it came from
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cwebber
somehow I missed that in doing these edits
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cwebber
criminy
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tantek
cwebber, let's file an issue and get cracking on it
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sandro
I'm very surprised to see https://www.w3.org/community/activitypub/ from 2012. At least Evan is chair.
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tantek
uhhh eprodrom ^^^ is that still an open CG?
#
tantek
or is that one of the ones we resolved to close / redirect to SWICG?
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eprodrom
tantek: it should probably be closed
#
tantek
looks for an ostatus CG
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eprodrom
I think so yes
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eprodrom
tantek: there was an ostatus cg
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eprodrom
There is not a wiki for the swicg though
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sandro
It's very hard to tell which CGs are real and which are not. :-(
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tantek
eprodrom: I recall in Lisbon we decided to just re-use w3.org/wiki/
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Loqi
aww, cheer up
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rhiaro
I added a link to the CG where the CG is mentioned https://www.w3.org/ns/activitystreams#extensions
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aaronpk
i thought all CGs got a wiki automatically
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tantek
sandro, perhaps the descriptions of the old/closed CGs could be updated to point to https://www.w3.org/community/swicg/ ?
#
tantek
aaronpk: it may be one of the checkboxes upon creation
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tantek
not sure
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cwebber
maybe it's too late to deal with? :\
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cwebber
it seems hard to change this non-normatively?
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tantek
indeed since it is about conformance
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cwebber
shit
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cwebber
I wish we had caught this before the meeting today
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wilkie
if you don't technically have to do it, and then some people don't do it, do they still conform??
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tantek
cwebber same
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tantek
wilkie do you mean practically? because per spec "technically" you do
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eprodrom
rhiaro: ^^^ does that sound about right?
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strugee
wilkie: pragmatically yes but technically no
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eprodrom
Assuming that that empty wiki page will become something
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rhiaro
looks good eprodrom. Assuming the CG chairs approve that wiki URL
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cwebber
seems good
#
tantek
might be good to start a stub page there :)
#
eprodrom
oh yeah
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eprodrom
tantek: I just added a sentence
#
rhiaro
I think jasnell had a couple of test extensions
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wilkie
you conform to the protocol enough that people can talk with you without problem, but you technically don't validate against the spec on a technicality. dang, seems like a good thing to clarify/change then.
#
rhiaro
and I can dig mine up
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strugee
not the end of the world though
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strugee
at least you can practically conform
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strugee
enough for interoperability
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cwebber
"you won't conform on that standpoint but the editors are fine with it" ;p
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wilkie
yeah, true :) that's all that matters
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tantek
cwebber, rhiaro let's get the editorial AP CR updated published, and then address issue 184 please
#
strugee
lol
#
cwebber
tantek: what I fear is that we're too late to be able to do another CR that has normative changes if we wait till the 25th?
#
tantek
cwebber, could you propose an edit in the issue?
#
tantek
and then we can at least get folks to +1 / thumbs up it
#
tantek
yes this may merit a special telcon
#
tantek
just for time purposes
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cwebber
tantek: yeah I'll propose the edit right now
#
tantek
thank you
#
cwebber
tantek: rhiaro: eprodrom: strugee: wilkie: https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/184#issuecomment-293326115
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wilkie
that looks good at a glance
#
wilkie
I'd +1 that change
#
strugee
cwebber: proposed a rewording but generally LGTM
#
sandro
FWIW, I don't like the idea of the wiki page.
#
tantek
for extensions?
#
sandro
Right. I see wiki's as disliked / too-old-school now. Repos are cool now.
#
tantek
having an informal wiki page doesn't stop others from having more formal extension registry etc. places / mechanisms
#
tantek
repos not on w3.org right?
#
tantek
cwebber LGTM
#
sandro
Compromise, "page" so we can make it whatever we want later, okay?
#
ben_thatmustbeme
redmatrix (now hubzilla) i believe is still heavily like friendica's code base. last time i looked they will occasionally borrow port commits directly between them
#
tantek
sandro, more importantly, are you following the normative issue cwebber just discovered for AP? https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/184
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ben_thatmustbeme
but that was some time ago
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ben_thatmustbeme
(sorry, just reading back a bit now)
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eprodrom
rhiaro: OK, I pushed the update
#
tantek
ALL: please comment / thumbs up/down on https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/184 so we can see where the group is
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tantek
sandro, we may need to schedule a special telcon to resolve this for AP for a normative CR iteration
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sandro
looking
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tantek
cwebber, do you want to take a day or two to do a fine-tooth review checking for anything else like that?
#
tantek
note that it's often hard to find these kinds of details *before* creating a test suite, so it's not surprising that you're finding an issue like this
#
tantek
though we're trying to move as swiftly as we can, that's one of the express purposes (and usual outcomes) of going through CR with test suites and implementations (iterating), exposing and fixing previously unseen/unrevealed normative issues.
#
tantek
it's ok to be optimistic that we don't have any/many, but we should be clear about expectations, especially since we are still expecting more/new implementations from outside the group (which tend to be a particularly high source of such discoveries - devs less familiar with the spec and its evolution as it were)
#
cwebber
tantek: yeah, unfortunately AP is coming together right at the end of the (extended) clock
#
tantek
regardless, I'm ok with making a special telcon for this, and then seeing where we are also on the 25th
#
tantek
and then again when we have complete test suites for clients and servers
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sandro
I think a special telecon is a good idea, given the deadlines and current energy on AP. Not yet seeing anything that I think *requires* it though. issue#184 is super cloudy, but I think it can probably squeek by as editorial. It doesn't actually require changing code, really.
#
cwebber
sandro: if anything it makes certain things compliant that weren't yet, but doesn't make anything non-compliant that already was
#
tantek
sandro I would agree if it wasn't for an apparent either disagreement or change or contrast of intention between editors Owen and Chris
#
cwebber
yeah one of the big initiatives of the group was to break up AP so that you could use things independently
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tantek
cwebber, do you think that was Owen's intention? or accidental?
#
cwebber
having that old phrasing was an oversight :\
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strugee
tantek: maybe just CC oshepherd on GitHub and ask?
#
cwebber
tantek: I think Owen probably meant what it said
#
tantek
cwebber ^^ ?
#
tantek
cwebber, agreed re: initiatives of the group
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cwebber
Owen's been out of it for some time, the vision of AP as being a "do all of that stuff" comes from looking at Pump.IO
#
cwebber
but obviously since then we've put in a lot of effort... heck, that was even why rhiaro came out and stayed with me for a week
#
cwebber
so yes there's been a shift in intent
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sandro
posts comment documenting why this isn't substantive, probably
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tantek
agrees with sandro's finessing, still good that we call it out
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cwebber
thanks sandro
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strugee
side note: fyi @all, filed https://github.com/tootsuite/mastodon/issues/1557 to track AP support in Mastodon
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eprodrom
strugee: can you update the wiki page?
#
tantek
sandro I feel like this kind of question should have come up before at W3C
#
eprodrom
strugee: I just added one for GNU Social https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/ActivityPub_network#GNU_Social
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strugee
eprodrom: yeah, was about to do that and got distracted by the AP issue
#
strugee
thx for the link
#
tantek
that is, a normative change that does not impact any existing conformant implementations, does it still need a new CR with new clock?
#
tantek
I feel like that's a judgment call that may have already been made (hopefully in the way you indicate)
#
tantek
and thus it would be good to cite that so we can move forward. hoping you can dig that up with Ralph et al
#
tantek
you = sandro
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cwebber
rhiaro: sandro: should we wait on this being reviewed by Ralph before we push the new CR anyway?
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cwebber
since the issue seems to be coming to consensus
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tantek
push the new CR anyway IMO
#
tantek
let's keep moving forward. if it is editorial we can do another editorial CR
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strugee
eprodrom: I can't log in. I think probably the wiki note about being restricted to WG members is accurate
#
tantek
s/push the new CR anyway IMO/push the new CR anyway since we have a WG resolution on that!
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cwebber
tantek: ah right, WG resolution before pushing a CR
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cwebber
I guess taht's important ;)
#
tantek
yes. let's keep it moving!
#
tantek
strugee - the W3C wiki is definitely not restricted to just WG members so I'm not sure what's going on
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sandro
strugee, what's your w3.org login? pm if you want
#
tantek
struggee you just created your account right?
#
tantek
thanks sandro.
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strugee
sandro: it's strugee on there too
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strugee
tantek: yep
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ben_thatmustbeme
i thought they changed that, and it is limited to w3c members and IEs of any groups
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ben_thatmustbeme
because the wiki got defaced so bad last year
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tantek
I trust sandro to get to the bottom of it :)
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strugee
login page says > This wiki is restricted to members of one or several W3C groups.
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strugee
which sounds like it means WGs? idk
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strugee
anyway didn't mean to derail the CR discussion
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tantek
strugee did you join the SWICG?
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tantek
you should be able to do that
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strugee
tantek: yeah I did
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Loqi
it is probable
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strugee
lol thanks Loqi
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tantek
then you're in a "W3C group" as it were of at least some form, so that should be fine IMO
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strugee
yah
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ben_thatmustbeme
no, community groups are open access, the login isn't shared completely, i've managed to get desync between them
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sandro
(I've ask systems folks; but they're not always prompt in replying.)
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ben_thatmustbeme
some CGs have wikis that look like they were set up by request
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strugee
sandro++
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Loqi
sandro has 34 karma in this channel (39 overall)
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tantek
sandro I always use #sysreq for that
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tantek
which is usually pretty prompt
#
tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: yeah there are some legacy wiki silos out there
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tantek
that end up dying, unmaintained and abandoned
#
tantek
this was also a problem for former IGs (Interest Groups)
#
ben_thatmustbeme
indeed, i remember someone trying to get a hold of eprodrom recently to request access to the ostatus wiki
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sandro
tantek, I used &sysreq which is the team version; should have same response time. We'll see.
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eprodrom
ben_thatmustbeme: I am pretty sure it was the Mastodon dude
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strugee
ah yeah ben_thatmustbeme
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strugee
eprodrom: I don't think so? because we were discussing Mastodon's use of OStatus and I was like "it's a bummer"
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strugee
and from their reply it didn't seem like they were associated
#
strugee
maybe not though; I don't remember very well
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eprodrom
I don't know
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strugee
shrugs
#
strugee
if you got an email or something that's probably way more concrete than my vague memory
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eprodrom
Yeah it was an email
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eprodrom
I should dig it up
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eprodrom
But it's not really that important
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ben_thatmustbeme
<drymer> pumabot tell evanpro Hi, I'm drymer (you can pm me in this server) and I wanted to ask for access to https://www.w3.org/community/ostatus/. Not for me but for mmn-o or mattl, both gnu social developers and on this server, so you can also ping them. If there's any problem on doing it, please tell some of us.
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ben_thatmustbeme
from #pump.io
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strugee
ahhh
#
strugee
thx ben_thatmustbeme
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ben_thatmustbeme
i pointed them to the SWICG, don't know if they every joined
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tantek
sandro, are you able to edit CG descriptions to explicitly note when they are closed and to direct people to another CG for follow-up?
#
mattl
fwiw, i joined that group
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aaronpk
mattl: \o/
#
mattl
that's my GNU social work done for 2017
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sandro
tantek, no, I have no special priv's on CGs
#
aaronpk
mattl: i bet the last couple weeks have been "fun" for you :-)
#
sandro
tantek, that has to go to sysrew
#
mattl
aaronpk: it's like seeing photos of a party you organized but didn't attend
#
tantek
mattl, in that case, be sure to file your TPS report ;)
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ben_thatmustbeme
PC Load Letter?!
#
mattl
it has actually managed to get me a little bit out of my awful mood though. i basically didn't get out of bed for two months prior to this :/
#
ajordan
mattl: :(
#
mattl
yeah, i'm at my office now working on the movie again
#
tantek
mattl: fedmo, dfn, that feeling that somewhere there is discussion on a federated server that you're missing out on because, well, not everything is federated everywhere and you're not sure who you have to follow or @ to actually see such discussions
#
mattl
eprodrom: i saw it :) working on getting you something
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eprodrom
FEDMO
#
ajordan
mo' protocols, mo' problems :P
#
aaronpk
mopromopro
#
ajordan
aaronpk++
#
Loqi
aaronpk has 73 karma in this channel (1280 overall)
#
ajordan
I literally laughed out loud at that one :'D
#
tantek
I read that as "mo promo pro" ?
#
aaronpk
also true
#
mattl
pro dro mou, or something
#
ajordan
oh tantek I read it as that originally... didn't even get the original joke lol
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mattl
eprodrom: best way to get a PDF to you?
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eprodrom
evan@prodromou.name
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eprodrom
Unless it's too big for email
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mattl
nah, sent. 300kb
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ajordan
cwebber: https://twitter.com/dustyweb/status/851847009392832512 - not sure why you said ".@strugee2" but it didn't work
#
Loqi
[@dustyweb] .@strugee2 filed a bug for ActivityPub support in Mastodon https://github.com/tootsuite/mastodon/issues/1557 Would be really nice!
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ajordan
I think Twitter fixed that bug
#
mattl
just that form I constantly forget to get you to sign
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ajordan
that let you prefix mentions with .
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ajordan
hey, did y'all ever decide what to do wrt upcoming CRs and https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/184?
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cwebber
nice convo happening already on the Mastodon issue
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eprodrom
Yeah I saw
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eprodrom
wilkie++
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Loqi
wilkie has 42 karma
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eprodrom
cwebber: are there other platforms that should be on https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/ActivityPub_network ?
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ajordan
eprodrom: if we're already including ownCloud we should probably include Nextcloud too
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eprodrom
ajordan: true that
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wilkie
cwebber: https://activitypub.rocks/implementation-report/ this link is broken I think?
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ajordan
buddycloud and movim both apparently run on top of XMPP, not sure if we care about them since that's such a radical departure from the AP model
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eprodrom
Great, thanks
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wilkie
cwebber: is there an activitypub implementation that's current to spec?
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eprodrom
I wonder if it makes sense for tent.io
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ajordan
ooo, good question
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cwebber
wilkie: wow nice job me
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ajordan
I think Tent uses a custom protocol right? idk what it looks like generally
#
cwebber
wilkie: can you tell who's using quasiquote
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wilkie
I haven't kept up with tent, but that's my understanding too
#
wilkie
cwebber: :)
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ajordan
wilkie: re: current implementation, soci-el and the other one I think are up to spec
#
ajordan
or at least they were recently
#
ajordan
"the other one" = cwebber's server implementation whose name I forget
#
ajordan
wilkie: ah yeah
#
ajordan
I don't think there are any implementations in the wild yet
#
ajordan
should we add cwebber's stuff to that page? idk
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cwebber
wilkie: fixed
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cwebber
thanx
#
eprodrom
ajordan: I think tent is like, this is the protocol, and here is a reference implementation
#
cwebber
wilkie: so yeah Pubstrate is up to spec, or should be
#
cwebber
wilkie: lunchtime brb
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eprodrom
cwebber: is there a live pubstrate server somewhere?
#
wilkie
dang I'm so sorry but I always read that as prostrate
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wilkie
but thanks, I'll add that to the list to validate against
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cwebber
eprodrom: nooo
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cwebber
eprodrom: shortly tho!
#
wilkie
cwebber: thanks
#
ajordan
eprodrom: yeah sounds right
#
ajordan
eprodrom: according to https://tent.io/docs/ their API isn't stable
#
ajordan
lol I should take a lunch break too
#
ajordan
leaving, back in ~10 minutes
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ajordan
alrighty then
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ben_thatmustbeme
created the minutes, didn't review or edit, just posted it for now
#
ajordan
ben_thatmustbeme++
#
Loqi
ben_thatmustbeme has 67 karma in this channel (197 overall)
#
tantek
next telcon agenda is up - please add / expand as needed! https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-04-25
#
sandro
So, we're trusting we wont be restarting CR?
#
tantek
sandro I think I asked you to see if this situation already has precedent? (because it feels familiar / common)
#
tantek
looking for log link
#
ajordan
lol. wish I'd noticed that bug before the meeting. sorry :/
#
Loqi
[tantek] sandro I feel like this kind of question should have come up before at W3C
#
sandro
There's another reason to have Director's Decisions be public, like court decisions, so one could search and see. :-)
#
tantek
indeed
#
sandro
Anyway, we can't get an answer today.
#
tantek
ok let's move forward with the assumption that you'll get a positive answer from Ralph tomorrow
#
tantek
and if not, then we can schedule a telcon accordingly
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tantek
cwebber: ^^^ FYI
#
tantek
(re: AP restart CR or not)
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sandro
technically a telcon needs 7 days notice. Arguably that could be waived if no one objects.
#
cwebber
tantek: cool
#
tantek
updates our homepage
#
tantek
and done
#
Zakim
excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
#
ajordan
hey before I forget: can someone with a wiki account fix the "repo" link next to ActivityPub under Candidate Recommendations on the wiki home page?
#
ajordan
it points to the AS2 repo, not AP
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sandro
okay, doing it
#
ajordan
thanks sandro
#
ajordan
if you hear back from the sysops people will you ping me?
#
sandro
I'll move it to email and cc you
#
sandro
Alternatively, have we talked about you joining the WG?
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ajordan
sandro: sounds good
#
ajordan
re: WG, no
#
ajordan
we haven't discussed it
#
sandro
Do you want to? Do you work for someone who is or "should be" a W3C member?
#
ajordan
I don't work for anyone currently
#
cwebber
sandro: one question
#
ajordan
I'm taking a gap year before college
#
cwebber
does joining the WG disqualify ajordan's implementations from counting as independent implementations :P
#
sandro
no, cwebber, it's fine.
#
ajordan
I'd have to join as an Invited Expert but the only work I've done is on pump.io
#
cwebber
for some reason I thought that was the current rule, that we needed implementations from outside the socialwg
#
ajordan
so I don't think I'd qualify as an "expert" :)
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cwebber
ajordan: you're as much an expert as Jessica and I were when we joined
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tantek
cwebber, it's not hard & fast like that, unlike the 2+ rule.
#
ajordan
heh, ok :)
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cwebber
tantek: cool, I'm super +1 on ajordan joining then
#
sandro
ajordan, the term isn't a perfect fit. it's more like "invited person", but that doesn't sound as cool.
#
tantek
we've been holding ourselves to a higher bar, by distinguishing editor vs wg vs outside impls
#
cwebber
tantek: aha
#
ajordan
an neat sandro
#
ajordan
might as well apply then :-)
#
tantek
cwebber, that's my, Sandro etc. experience coming in, especially in comparison to some other WGs (who shall remain unnamed but may have overlapping tech :P)
#
tantek
this WG is different than most at W3C in that most (nearly all?) impls are from invited experts and not W3C members
#
tantek
thus it really helps our case (for positive PR votes by the AC etc.) to demonstrate above and beyond
#
tantek
especially should we or someone else try to propose another SWWG in the future
#
cwebber
gotcha cool, thanks
#
cwebber
yeah
#
tantek
one of the reasons we were very deliberate about Micropub client *and* server test suites, and then reports from those etc.
#
cwebber
tantek: it's weird, that also means that many of the participants like me *know* it's different than other groups, but have never experienced others, so
#
tantek
cwebber, you're better off
#
ajordan
lol I feel the same cwebber
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sandro
ajordan, try to edit the wiki now. They told me how to control access and I added you.
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ajordan
sandro: please stand by
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ajordan
I still get "incorrect password entered" on the login page
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ajordan
I do see "trusted wiki users" on my profile on w3.org though
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sandro
So the error's different from what it used to be? Try shift-reload in case something's cached in the HTML?
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ajordan
no that's the error I got before too
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ajordan
I assumed it was just an ACL problem but that the web interface couldn't handle displaying that properly
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ajordan
I'll try purging my cache
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ajordan
didn't work
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ajordan
lemme try resetting my password? maybe something got out of sync
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ajordan
oh actually you know what it might be? my password is 128 characters long
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ajordan
I wonder if the wiki's breaking because of that
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ajordan
like maybe the password gets truncated somewhere and there's an inconsistency because of that?
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sandro
Ha!!!!
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sandro
yeah, I bet.
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sandro
I'd stick with 'password' if I were you
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ajordan
hahaha
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aaronpk
or "correct horse battery staple" if you're feeling bold
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Loqi
rofl
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ajordan
sandro: that's horribly insecure!! better go with 'password123' instead
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tantek
sandro I literally saw an ep of "Green Arrow" last night where PASSWORD was the the password
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sandro
my w3c password was 'pw2' for a good while (back in 2001) because systems were so flakey I kept having to change it trying to get it to work, and finally it worked and I didnt want to touch it.
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aaronpk
hahahaha
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tantek
and appeared to be deliberately so, by very technical person, so as to be guessable by his friend in the know
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sandro
Of course in those days you could find out a password easily by watching the wifi
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tantek
when others would suspect a much stronger pw
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sandro
"Extended Version" indeed
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ajordan
hunter2 is also a good choice
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sandro
:-) always a good one
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ajordan
oh boy
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ajordan
now I don't know what my password is
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ajordan
*sigh*
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ajordan
I'll just use the password reset thing even though I'm *already logged in* lol
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cwebber
rhiaro: I closed out 180 now
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cwebber
rhiaro: wdyt?
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cwebber
ajordan: ^^^
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ajordan
sandro: wiki login doesn't work. password's only 32 characters now, and I purged caches and tried logging in in a Private Browsing windows to prevent interference from cookies
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ajordan
sorry for the hassle :(
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aaronpk
thepassword change takes a few minutes so give it some time and try again
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ajordan
ah forgot to mention it's been just under 20 minutes
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sandro
Also, I'd really recommend trying one 16 chars or less.
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sandro
It's not just the two auth systems but the federation system between them that might have limits
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ajordan
I'll reset to 16
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ajordan
will special characters break it?
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tantek
passwords--
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Loqi
passwords has -1 karma in this channel (-9 overall)
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ajordan
tantek++
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Loqi
tantek has 51 karma in this channel (330 overall)
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sandro
They might. Stick to ones and zeros. :-) No, um, stick to alphanumeric for this test, maybe? If that doesn't work, can you email sysreq@w3.org ? Mention I added you to Trusted Wiki Users & cc me.
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sandro
(I need to go offline for a bit)
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ajordan
thanks so much sandro
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sandro
sure, thanks for your help with getting this stuff implemented
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tantek
same same. have a good day all!
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ajordan
of course :)
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ajordan
you too tantek!
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ajordan
sandro: I know you're afk but when you get back: I'm filling out the Invited Expert form
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ajordan
should I put "pump.io" as an affiliated organization? or is that question more about legal entities?
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sandro
apparently i'm not fully afk - um, I dunno what pump.io is really. basically, just be clear somewhere on the form about your gap year status, and what your connection pump.io is.
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ajordan
sandro: pump.io = software project
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ajordan
written by Evan originally - ActivityPub is based on its protocol
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ajordan
I'll just make a note of it "somewhere"
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sandro
but is there any legal org behind it? are there servers someone's paying for?
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ajordan
not really
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ajordan
technically we'll be affiliated with Software Freedom Conservancy soon, which is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit? but they don't really have anything to do with the project itself, just handle some legal stuff
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sandro
make sense
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sandro
makes sense I mean
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ajordan
coolio :)
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ajordan
sandro: submitted
KevinMarks and KevinMarks_ joined the channel