#social 2017-05-02
2017-05-02 UTC
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@philarcher1 Linked Data Notifications is a W3C Rec! Sending & receiving messages expressed in RDF https://www.w3.org/TR/ldn/ Congrats @rhiaro & @csarven (twitter.com/_/status/859357837264375808)
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@csarven ? https://www.w3.org/TR/ldn/ is a @W3C Recommendation w @SocialWebWG Let's continue to build an exciting ecosystem of #LinkedData applications (twitter.com/_/status/859375297069813764)
# @csarven Thanks: https://www.w3.org/TR/ldn/#acknowledgements , implementers & @W3C @SocialWebWG to make it happen! Looking forward to an excitin… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/859374409190178816 (twitter.com/_/status/859374409190178816)
KevinMarks, dmitriz, Loqi, lambadalambda, aaronpk, bitbear, mattl, sandro, dwhly, KjetilK, bigbluehat, jet, raucao, nightpool, bwn, csarven, ben_thatmustbeme, timbl, JanKusanagi, trackbot, wilkie, cwebber, KevinMarks_ and ajordan joined the channel
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# 
cwebber yes
# 
Loqi Benthatmustbeme made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2017-05-02]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=102895&oldid=102894
# 
KevinMarks Afternoon
# cwebber hi!
# cwebber time to call in...
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# eprodrom trackbot, start meeting
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RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/05/02-social-irc
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# KevinMarks I am thing to have to be irc only
# cwebber present+
# eprodrom present+
# eprodrom scribe?
# 
ben_thatmustbeme I can scribe, its been a few weeks
# KevinMarks Present+
# ben_thatmustbeme scribenick: ben_thatmustbeme
# ben_thatmustbeme scribe: Ben Roberts
# ben_thatmustbeme Chair: eprodrom
# ben_thatmustbeme irc lost topic, can someone put the agenda in topic?
# cwebber I'm here
# cwebber sandro, <KevinMarks> I am thing to have to be irc only
# cwebber I guess yes :)
# ben_thatmustbeme TOPIC: approval of minutes
# eprodrom PROPOSED: approve https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-04-25-minutes as minutes for April 25 meeting
# cwebber +1
# ben_thatmustbeme writing is harder
# eprodrom +1
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: can we get some +1s on minutes?
# KevinMarks I am today, as I had to take my father in law to the ophthalmologist
# eprodrom RESOLVED: approve https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-04-25-minutes as minutes for April 25 meeting
# ben_thatmustbeme TOPIC: next meeing?
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# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: from my point of view, at least helping chris with AP as well as just a chair here, it feels like we are doing a lot in these meetings, so i am in favor of having weekly meetings for now
# cwebber +1 to meeting on the 9th
# cwebber yep
# cwebber https://www.w3.org/community/swicg/
# ben_thatmustbeme who was that ajordan?
# cwebber I think that was ajordan
# cwebber oops
# cwebber https://www.w3.org/community/swicg/2017/05/01/social-web-incubator-community-group-kick-off-call/ more specifically
# ben_thatmustbeme ajordan: also note that there is a community group meething this friday
# cwebber ;)
# KevinMarks I just signed up for that
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: unless anyone has issues with it, i will say we have a meeting next week as we are in a pressure sensative time
# cwebber ajordan yeah evan is speaking
# ben_thatmustbeme ... i will have to confirm with tantek that he's ok to chair, but i think we have the power to just decide that we have a meeting
# Loqi Cwebber2 made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2017-05-02]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=102896&oldid=102895
# eprodrom https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-05-02 <- agenda
# cwebber audio is indeed complicated and myseterious
# ben_thatmustbeme present+
# ben_thatmustbeme forgot to do that hah
# cwebber like computers... are computers even real
# ben_thatmustbeme TOPIC: SWICG telcons
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber: we scheduled our first telcon for this friday on irc / mumble, been trying to drum up interest in various places, i recommend others do the same
# ben_thatmustbeme ... its going to be a loose call and open up discussion
# ben_thatmustbeme ... and what people would like to work on and guage next steps
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: is that enough advanced notice? i don't know of any rules for CGs, but its somewhat short notice
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# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber: yes, its pretty short notice, but its been scheduled now
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: well its okay if its only a few people, just want to set expectations
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber: yes, its ok if its a smaller number of people there
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: what are you using for audio calls?
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber: its on mumble, it has clients on just about everything
# ben_thatmustbeme ... i've had pretty good success with it just working (tm)
# ben_thatmustbeme ... it also works well for people internationally well
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: also for anyone who hasn't signed up for the CG, please do
# eprodrom q?
# eprodrom ack sandro
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: is there any way to reach the members of the CG to let them know about the meeting?
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber: the current method i'm using is to post to all the social web type things
# KevinMarks_ Send them webmentions?
# ben_thatmustbeme ... we don't have an email list, i don't have strong opinions on this, which is why it got email removed
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber: personally i don't have any objections to email
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: there was discussion of possibly even using github issues for meeting scheduling
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber: sounds like a good this to discuss in the first meeting
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: aaronpk actually POSSE's from his site to email
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: am i muted?
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: sounds like we have a plan for this friday, glad that that is happening
# ben_thatmustbeme TOPIC: PR status updates
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: LDN came out and AS2 still needs another week or so, i don't think there is anything to say about it right now
# cwebber go amy!
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: for people who don't know amy turned in her doctoral thesis and is on retreat
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: that leaves next steps for the other PRs, as far as AS2 is concerned we haven't had other issues come in... actually we have 2 new ones from the group
# ben_thatmustbeme ... they look like they are just editorial, which i will review
# ben_thatmustbeme ... do we have any for the other PRs?
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber: there are a couple of example issues i found that are very small, nothing that should be normative, planning on sending a PR this week (for AS vocab doc)
# cwebber haha at yeeeeeahhhhh
# ben_thatmustbeme isn't going to scribe this unless sandro says so
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: talk to your AC reps to get some more feedback on these specs
# ben_thatmustbeme ... specifically for activity streams which has a deadline in the next week or so
# 
sandro https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/socialweb/ Deadline May 11
# ben_thatmustbeme TOPIC: our CRs
# ben_thatmustbeme TOPIC: PR status updates
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: since aaronpk isn't here, there are a few micropub issues that came up, please take a look at them to help process them
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: oh there is a new implementation for micropub as well
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: micro.blog has taken micropub as their client connection API
# ben_thatmustbeme ... so their client will work for any micropub servers, and existing micropub clients will work for them
# ben_thatmustbeme ... also micro.blog is not a w3c member, just a kickstarter project
# ben_thatmustbeme ben_thatmustbeme: i opened issues on various issue trackers, to request support for it too
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# ben_thatmustbeme is not regretting scribing this week :P
# ben_thatmustbeme TOPIC: current CR updates
# sandro Here's the W3C Member Confidential link to one negative comment on MicroPub: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-archive/2017Apr/0338.html
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom_: is there anything we can talk about on websub without aaronpk or julien here?
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: i was hoping to get a websub test suite update today
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom_: i think aaronpk said a 2 week schedule for it made sense
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: and i see 3 open issues
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom_: on to AP
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber: we have seen some implementation work from mastodon and ??
# ben_thatmustbeme ... in terms of a test suite, i have some working code, and i have discussed with eprodrom_ and its a bit too prompty, and its going to be some work to simplify it
# ben_thatmustbeme ... things are not there yet, but there is progress
# ben_thatmustbeme ... we had a CR scheduled for today, put the link to changes
# ben_thatmustbeme ... in irc
# ben_thatmustbeme ... mainly a new CR because there have been a lot of changes
# ben_thatmustbeme ... but before issuing another CR, we may want to talk about a few of these issues
# ben_thatmustbeme ... for 219 its a question of it should be a MUST to post ...
# ben_thatmustbeme ... i'm not completely convinced if those are reason enough
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom_: couple of tricky bits here, one is access control, if i publish something that is only visible to certain people, what does it mean to publish it to that outbox collection
# ben_thatmustbeme ... do they have different views of the
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber: we already have working about filtering the outbox based on ACLs
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom_: the only other issue i could see is with third party confirmation
# ben_thatmustbeme ... like a captca, or a confirmation you were tagged
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom_: a SHOULD would likely be fine
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: what happens if someone violates the should?
# ben_thatmustbeme ... does it break implementations?
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber: it wouldn't break federation but it just wouldn't federate
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: isn't that broken?
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom_: its like if something gets posted to the server but doesn't get posted publicly
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: do we know of a specific use-case for that?
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: the reason for should would allow for flexibility for other things?
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber: another example would be for transient messages
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom_: a common case is uploading files for processing, like video files get transcoded on the server, they may not appear immediately
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom_: we can't think of it as a bad thing if it did happen
# eprodrom_ q?
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: whenever you change a should to a must makes it more fragile
# ben_thatmustbeme ... its best to start with MUST and drop to a SHOULD only if it breaks for someone
# ben_thatmustbeme ... only go SHOULD if there is a specific use-case
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber: there is one case where it would break, which is transient activiites, which we have mentioned in other places in the spec
# ben_thatmustbeme too many people talking at once
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber: rather we permit it, like for game activities that stick around
# ben_thatmustbeme ... but we don't have really clear examples of it happening
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: you can say its a MUST except for transient activities or other things that might come along
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom_: it doesn't actually have a time constraint, if its delayed some amount of time, thats fine
# cwebber > The server MUST then add this new Activity to the outbox collection, unless there is a specific reason that this object will never appear in the outbox, such as the object being transient or be used for side effects only.
# ben_thatmustbeme ... even transient activiites can appear and then disappear, there is not requirement that they stay there
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: i like that interpretation
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom_: i think thats a common understanding of what a feed is, things don't get added right away, things change, things get removed without warning
# eprodrom_ PROPOSED: close issue https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/219 with proposed text including "MUST"
# ben_thatmustbeme points to queue
# eprodrom_ +1
# eprodrom_ ben_thatmustbeme: thanks
# eprodrom_ ack ajordan
# ben_thatmustbeme ajordan: is the proposed text we are dissing the one cwebber just posted to IRC?
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber: no, thats a more expanded version
# ben_thatmustbeme ajordan:so we are discussing the one on github?
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber: yes
# ben_thatmustbeme ajordan: can we add a note to that effect?
# ben_thatmustbeme ... as an implementor i wouldn't see that as obvious
# eprodrom_ PROPOSED: close issue https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/219 with proposed text including "MUST" with explanatory note for exceptions
# ben_thatmustbeme +1 not sure this needs a proposal any more, just resolve and adding note is up to editor discression
# eprodrom_ +1
# ben_thatmustbeme notes that even having something appear and dissapear doesn't matter as that can be ACLd to only the user themself, etc
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: i think the concern is a client that posts a note and then immediately reads the outbox and expects it to be there
# cwebber +1
# ben_thatmustbeme ... we should explain that there are several reasons why it might not be there
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: in the interest of interop, i'm in favor of fewer caveats
# eprodrom RESOLVED: close issue https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/219 with proposed text including "MUST" with explanatory note for exceptions
# ben_thatmustbeme wonders if its worth mentioning dropping .well-known from websub?
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: we might want to talk about posibilities of extending the group
# ben_thatmustbeme cannot extend
# ben_thatmustbeme the meeting that is
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber: i can wrap up AP quick i think
# ben_thatmustbeme ... i wanted to make sure before we approve the CR, we are okay with these images added
# ben_thatmustbeme ... the other issue is this is too complex to discuss, this whole thing as flagging things as direct messages, if we do the CR now, this will come up again
# eprodrom ack ben_thatmustbeme
# ben_thatmustbeme ben_thatmustbeme: if there are possibly normative changes, should we wait on CR?
# 
tantek with the set of changes in https://w3c.github.io/activitypub/#changes-11-april-to-2-may I think we should do a CR today
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber: what do you think sandro? can we wait?
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: it can wait another week
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: its not clear that we will have a solution next week either
# ben_thatmustbeme ben_thatmustbeme: i'm not saying we shouldn't do a CR, just asking that
# eprodrom PROPOSED: new CR for ActivityPub with changes https://w3c.github.io/activitypub/#changes-11-april-to-2-may and changes to issue 219 and vector graphics
# cwebber +1
# eprodrom +1
# eprodrom RESOLVED: new CR for ActivityPub with changes https://w3c.github.io/activitypub/#changes-11-april-to-2-may and changes to issue 219 and vector graphics
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: websub, aaronpk looked for implementations that publish it and or depend on it, its sort of a last call for implementations of it
# ben_thatmustbeme and his plan is to not implement a test for it
# ben_thatmustbeme ... otherwise its assumed this at-risk feature is getting killed
# ben_thatmustbeme TOPIC: extending the WG?
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: tantek, sandro, and I have been talking about if its possible for extending this group
# ben_thatmustbeme ... there has been some push for activity streams, there has been a lot of interest with mastodon, and lots of implementation work
# eprodrom ack tantek
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# ben_thatmustbeme ... i'd like to discuss this next week
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: i agree the last month has shown tremendous implementation update in all of our specs
# ben_thatmustbeme ... from the mastodon phenomenon, to micro.blog, to LDN getting funding for impelmentations, i think we can make a case for that to recharter, we just have to figure out what that means
# eprodrom Thanks all
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: thanks everyone for your time
# ben_thatmustbeme can end meeting if wanted, eprorom?
# ben_thatmustbeme trackbot end meeting
# RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/02-social-minutes.html trackbot
# ben_thatmustbeme Zakim, bye
# cwebber thanks :)
# cwebber and sorry I did it so helter-skelter quick... I think it's important to start it rolling though, especially as tantek said we're seeing an uptick in interest in the work we're doing at an all time high
# cwebber of course everyone here is also welcome / encouraged to join the call if they can find time for it :)
# cwebber tantek: yeah we discussed it
# Loqi Benthatmustbeme made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=102897&oldid=102856
# Loqi Benthatmustbeme made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2017-05-02-minutes]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=102898&oldid=0
# ben_thatmustbeme minutes are up (removed 'am i muted?' hehe ) https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-05-02-minutes
# 
ajordan tantek and/or sandro: I'm not super familiar with W3C process and what the intentions/guidelines are behind WG charter periods, etc. are either of you able to give a sense of how likely it is that we can get an extension, given the recent uptick in activity? or why that'd be an important factor?
# ben_thatmustbeme don't think that works on this channel at all
# tantek cwebber, hey look did you know SWICG has a home page? https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/swicg perhaps you could add a telcon schedule there like we have on the SWWG home page?
# tantek ajordan, ok here you go https://www.w3.org/2017/Process-20170301/
# ben_thatmustbeme i realized half way through that meeting how far my clock on my home computer is off
# ben_thatmustbeme not sure at what point i forgot to install ntp
# ben_thatmustbeme oh yeah, don't think him, that process doc isn't pretty
# cwebber tantek: oh right yeah I guess I should do that.
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# Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=102900&oldid=102897
# cwebber ajordan: yeah I think we're intending to minute, though maybe if aaronpk and I are the only ones with minuting experience we might have to switch off on the minuting
# cwebber whoa!
# cwebber sandro: surprise implementation! https://nextcloud.com/blog/nextcloud-12-beta-introduces-the-next-generation-of-secure-collaboration/
# cwebber nextcloud has some activitypub implementation out in a beta and I didn't even know
# cwebber Frank used to be part of this group when OwnCloud was NextCloud
# cwebber I'm gonna email him and invite him to the CG
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# 
@prototypo Linked Data Notifications is now a @w3c Recommendation https://www.w3.org/TR/ldn/ Congratulations @csarven #linkeddata #rdf (twitter.com/_/status/859548972834111488)