#social 2017-05-05
2017-05-05 UTC
timbl and dmitriz joined the channel
# 
cwebber moin moin
# cwebber reminder about https://www.w3.org/wiki/SocialCG/2017-05-05 in nearly 2.5 hours :)
# 
sandro sorry, cwebber, nightpool, I don't know the answer to that. I know it's definitely okay to participate pseudonymously if you if the staff knows your legal id; not sure about otherwise. eg you could send it in email to w3t-archive@w3.org, and maybe cc the relevant staff member (me in this case).
# sandro What I really want with mumber conferencing is the list of people on the channel displayed in a very wide window, and positional audio, so I can tell who is speaking. Even better, my understanding is positional audio allows the brain to have a chance of understanding two people speaking at once.
dmitriz joined the channel
# sandro Actually, I guess we could use a wiki page & https://wiki.mumble.info/wiki/Games#Manual_positional_audio_plugin and a little cleverness.
# cwebber sandro: in some future time we'll be holding meetings in some more cyberpunk augmented reality meeting setup :)
# cwebber sandro: huh... what distro / operating system are you on?
# cwebber haha.... uhoh :)
# cwebber good luck!
# cwebber install that phone version of mumble just in case ;)
sandroid joined the channel
# sandroid Irc on android, too
dmitriz_ joined the channel
# sandroid You joining the call today, Dmitri?
dmitriz joined the channel
# 
ben_thatmustbeme picturing a half robotic sandro now
# dmitriz @sandroid - yep, will be joining the call. it’s at noon boston time, right?
# sandroid As far as I can tell, yeah, in 79 minutes
# dmitriz brilliant.
dmitriz_, dmitriz and KevinMarks joined the channel
# 
KevinMarks Not sure how I tell id
# KevinMarks If the call is working
# cwebber heya KevinMarks
# cwebber KevinMarks: you mean Mumble?
# KevinMarks Sandro confirmed it
dmitriz joined the channel
# KevinMarks Audio that in an hour early because it's not gmt here
dmitriz_ joined the channel
dmitriz_ joined the channel
# cwebber poll for 2nd CG meeting
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber: timezone?
# ben_thatmustbeme oh i see it
# ben_thatmustbeme n/m
sandroid2 joined the channel
# cwebber sandro: oh
# cwebber sandro: help I don't know how to doodle poll
# cwebber maybe it's because I didn't set a specific timezone
# cwebber maybe I should star tit over
# cwebber start it over
# cwebber and select a timezone up front?
# cwebber I think it won't let me change the time zones now
# cwebber maybe I should try with a new one
# sandro not sure what's different, I just made http://doodle.com/poll/bwd2i78evvhwwy9t and didn't do anything, but it has a timezone option.
# cwebber I see
# cwebber ok
# cwebber alright http://doodle.com/poll/vvn2rn36ikgpx96b
# cwebber aaronpk: is there a certificate warning? maybe I already accepted it so didn't notice
# cwebber I didn't set it up to use dustycloud's ssl cert so it's probably self-signed
# cwebber yeah just accept it
# cwebber I'll look into setting up the dustycloud ssl cert later
# cwebber not gonna potentially break things 15mins before call :)
# cwebber aaronpk: it looks like you put username goblincamp, password goblincamp ;)
# cwebber sandro: wow
# cwebber nice job me
# cwebber aurgh
# cwebber http://doodle.com/poll/vvn2rn36ikgpx96bkhwp6rey ok ttry again
# cwebber ugh
# 
aaronpk i think i found a bug https://media.aaronpk.com/Screen-Shot-2017-05-05-08-45-57.png
# cwebber aaronpk: it *looks* like you selected your username right
# cwebber very strange
# cwebber aaronpk: try closing the program and re-opening it?
# cwebber .config/Mumble/Mumble.conf it looks like here
# cwebber aaronpk: your computer is cursed :)
# dmitriz but, it’s pretty awesome at what it does. (the voice conferencing part)
# cwebber yeah it does usually just work
# cwebber apparently excepting this username curse
# dmitriz it has something to do with how it binds a user to a device
maloki joined the channel
# maloki Hello
# cwebber oh!
# cwebber hi maloki
# cwebber aaronpk: it might be your certificate
# cwebber it generates a certificate for you iirc
# maloki omg I haven't been irc (discord doesn't count!) for years
# cwebber hm configure -> certificate wizard, but it looks like it doesn't associate with a username there maybe
# cwebber maloki: welcome back to irc :)
mastodon joined the channel
# sandro Poll for next meeting time: http://doodle.com/poll/vvn2rn36ikgpx96b
# cwebber aaronpk: it's in the audio wizard
# dmitriz go into properties / shortcuts
# cwebber oh or that
# cwebber I'm a dumb user, I just use the wizard
# cwebber sandro: lol
# nightpool protip: if you make a new keyboard shortcut, and then select the key before seletcting "push to talk", it'll let you choose a much larger selection of keys, such as function keys.
geppy, dmitriz_ and masoud joined the channel
# KevinMarks Not sue what I push for push to talk
Gargron joined the channel
# KevinMarks Found it.
# Gargron I'M HERE
MMN-work joined the channel
geppy1 joined the channel
RRSAgent joined the channel
# 
RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/05/05-social-irc
Zakim joined the channel
# ben_thatmustbeme is muted
# ben_thatmustbeme i'm good
# KevinMarks Ouch, sorry
# ben_thatmustbeme ah found the text to speet settings
dmitriz_ joined the channel
# ben_thatmustbeme +1 to liking social stuff
# cwebber also if there is anyone who's on irc-only and would like to introduce yourself, I can relay for you
FrankMurphy joined the channel
# ben_thatmustbeme found headphones
# nightpool (s/a service/cybre.space/)
geppy joined the channel
# cwebber scribenick: aaronpk
# cwebber scribenick: cwebber
# cwebber aaronpk: for those who don't know I'm workign on MicroPub, a client to server system, which is on the second to last stage of the formalization process
# sandro or spec at https://github.com/w3c/activitypub
# cwebber aaronpk: webmention is a w3c recommendation right now, it's used for doing cross-site comments, more or less an evolution of pingback but more tightly specified
# Gargron I LOVED THE OLD NAME
# cwebber aaronpk: the third spec I'm editing is websub, which is basically pubsubhubbub, with a few but few functional changes
# maloki I can't even say it... I just skip half of it
# cwebber aaronpk: I should also add that one of the goals of this community group is to continue the work of these specs after this workign group chapter is over
# MMN-work Gargron: Pubsub my hub!
# ben_thatmustbeme Gargron, non-native speakers tended to not love it
# Gargron it sounded like you were summoning the dark lord
# FrankMurphy Sorry about that... I did the audio test before the call while my laptop was on a dock, but I took it off the dock so something must have gotten thrown off... Hi everyone, my background is a little unorthodox: I'm an attorney by trade (though one with a CS degree) specializing in technology matters and open source. I'm a lifelong techie and became interested in decentralized social networking because of Mastodon. Stumbled onto ActivityPub from there.
# cwebber aaronpk: one is to develop and formalize extensions around these specs. Many of our specs are designed to be relatively small at what they describe, but are designed to be extensible
# cwebber aaronpk: so that's we expect as apart of this cg
# MMN-work Gargron: PS, you can mute the mic (there's a mic icon in the toolbar in Mumble) so your keystrokes don't reach the audio level for broadcasting. .)
# cwebber q?
# maloki FrankMurphy: :> <3
# MMN-work (or configure push-to-talk, https://tserverhq.com/clients/knowledgebase/100/How-to-setup-push-to-talk-in-Mumble.html )
# ben_thatmustbeme present+
# cwebber ack sandro
# maloki 15th standard! :o
KevinMarks_ joined the channel
# cwebber q?
# nightpool just as a quick, 30,0000 foot view: micropub is more about client-to-server communication, right?
# cwebber scribenick: cwebber
# cwebber aaronpk: yes micropub is specifically about client to server
# cwebber aaronpk: you'll notice a recurring theme about the specs I'm working on is they're very broken up into discrete parts
# KevinMarks_ composable specs
# cwebber aaronpk: federation and client to server are in separate parts
# KevinMarks_ you're gapping a lot
# aaronpk this section is a nice side-by-side comparison https://www.w3.org/TR/social-web-protocols/#how-do-the-specs-relate-to-each-other
# ben_thatmustbeme note that it is entirely possible to do micropub for C2S and activitypub for S2S or activitypub for C2S and webmention or LDN for S2S, etc
# MMN-work KevinMarks: I think he's just pausing. .)
# KevinMarks_ hm, maybe it's my client
MMN-o joined the channel
# KevinMarks_ Q was 'what can we extend? is it just verbs?'
# geppy q+ activitypub implementations and tests
# cwebber ack geppy
# Gargron +q
# nightpool question was "just so I make sure I have this correctly, if I implement a linked set of extensions, I'm allowed to include a new context, and that works somewhat like an xml schema?"
# nightpool aaronpk ^
# nightpool (that was the followup for the question about extension points)
# KevinMarks_ mostly they try and interoperate and grumble about it ;)
# cwebber q?
# geppy q+ do you need help with AP tests?
# cwebber ack gargon
# cwebber ack Gargon
# cwebber ack Gargron
# MMN-work WebSub has a test suite that's being worked on afaik, which is a part of OStatus (in practice).
# KevinMarks_ q+ websub.rocks
# nightpool (meta question: is there a place where we can add topics for later that's less immediate then queuing? or should we just queue?)
# MMN-work Good, KevinMarks .)
# cwebber q?
# cwebber ack aaronpk
# nightpool q+ geppy to ask do you need help with AP tests?
# cwebber q?
# nightpool (geppy: your earlier one didn't go through for syntax reasons)
# KevinMarks_ ack websub.rocks
# cwebber KevinMarks_, were you queuing yourself?
# cwebber ah
# cwebber ok
# cwebber scribenick: cwebber
# KevinMarks_ I thought I was
# cwebber aaronpk: these aren't tests that are like unit tests, more functional tests
# geppy (nightpool: thanks! I didn't realize I need to say "... to ...".)
# cwebber aaronpk: you can see examples at webmention.rocks and micropub.rocks
# nightpool (yeah, you can elide the person if you're queueing yourself, but you do need to say "to")
# cwebber aaronpk: those are good examples of tools that people can use
# cwebber KevinMarks_: what I meant to say is that websub.rocks is to test for conformance for mastodon gnu social etc
# cwebber q?
# cwebber ack geppy
# cwebber geppy: do you need help with the ap tests?
# geppy Shiny, thanks!
# cwebber q?
# cwebber ack sandro
# cwebber cwebber: yes, let's talk more after meeting (and it's in scheme)
# Gargron +q websub.rocks, server authorization/trust
# cwebber sandro: so you do "q+ to: foo" to remind yourself about a topic
# geppy (Oh, thanks for explaining q!)
# cwebber q?
# Gargron oops
# 
Loqi [[MOVED] Christopher Webber] Hey everyone! So the first call of the Social Web Incubator Community Group is at 4PM GMT this Friday, May 5th. I hope you can make it! https://www.w3.org/community/swicg/2017/05/01/social-web-incubator-community-group-kick-off-call/ This will be a...
# cwebber Gargron: I'm reminded of websub.rocks which is an amazing resource
# cwebber Gargron: it's not really a test you can add any account and it work
# cwebber Gargron: The problem is that websub.rocks does not work for mastodon, which is mainly because the implementation of private status in mastodon
# cwebber Gargron: the problem is if you have ??? only then is the push done to the server
# cwebber Gargron: so status is done not only to anyone who subscribes, but this accidentally breaks websub.rocks
# cwebber Gargron: so I have no problem doing this change
# ben_thatmustbeme would be good for public statuses for subscription between services
# cwebber Gargron: one problem with OStatus is nothing about reachability is not specified in the spec, so I had to invent my own xml tag, and no other software understood that tag
# nightpool "if you have at least one authorized follower" for the ??? cwebber
# cwebber Gargron: ActivityPub solves this
# cwebber Gargron: but the problem still remains that the user has to be aware of what servers the status travels to
# cwebber Gargron: because a rogue implementation can simply be modified to leak/reveal them
# cwebber Gargron: so I'm bringing up that concern
# cwebber q?
# cwebber q+
# MMN-work q+ to discuss public web content accessibility
# cwebber ack cwebber
# nightpool For the record, the specific question was about how subscription confirmation works
# dmitriz q+
# KevinMarks_ q+ to mention twitter history here
# nightpool q+ to clarify subscription question
# ben_thatmustbeme yikes queue
# cwebber ack MMn-work
# KevinMarks_ previously
# aaronpk ... i'm not sure if it's within the scope of activitypub to discuss these things, since of course public discussions should be available like a URL can point to a resource that is a discussion. of course ostatus only covers this specific use case. activitypub addresses private messaging, but i dont think its within scope to say how to protect these messages to be redistributed. since they might be
# cwebber ack dmitriz
# cwebber q?
# cwebber ack KevinMarks_
# aaronpk i liked to the private posts experiments https://indieweb.org/private
# nightpool not only does it not scale, it doesn't even make sense for non-technical users.
# cwebber ack sandro
# MMN-work +q to ask about scalability of per-person-distribution and ActivityPub's POV
# nightpool +1 social problems
# KevinMarks_ well, it depends on multiusers trysting admins - withknown does the same
# KevinMarks_ eg https://teach.kqed.org/ has many users that trust kqed as admin
# cwebber ack nightpool
# FrankMurphy Agree with your observations on the ToS issue. Happy to lend my expertise on that front.
# cwebber q+
# KevinMarks_ Salmon--
# cwebber q-
# Gargron +q to: follow requests via salmon
# Gargron +q to follow requests via salmon
# cwebber ack aaronpk
# nightpool salmon++
# cwebber scribenick: cwebber
# nightpool :P
# cwebber aaronpk: KevinMarks_ mentioned the indieweb approach of one server per person, but that's not exactly it, each user has one url
# KevinMarks_ I was being uncelar, sorry
# FrankMurphy q to cwebber: Somewhat relatedly, is data portability within the scope of the ActivityPub spec? Textbook use case is a user wanting to take his content from one ActivityPub-compliant instance to another.
# cwebber aaronpk: each person has a top level url, but might be a subdomain or suburl... the point is your user is a url, so you can have your own site, but it works with multiple users on sites.
# cwebber FrankMurphy: could you q+?
# cwebber q?
# cwebber ack MMN-work
# cwebber q+ to: antiabuse
# FrankMurphy q+ to cwebber: Somewhat relatedly, is data portability within the scope of the ActivityPub spec? Textbook use case is a user wanting to take his content from one ActivityPub-compliant instance to another.
# cwebber q- to:
# cwebber q- antiabuse
# cwebber q+ to talk about antiabuse
# KevinMarks_ websub works for public posts between servers; for private posts you would need to send one per subscriber
# cwebber q?
# cwebber ack Gargron
# ben_thatmustbeme was testing it still works
# KevinMarks_ is this why remote follow takes 3 clicks?
# cwebber q?
# cwebber ack sandro
# nightpool oh, yikes, it was only an hour?
# dmitriz hahaha
# sandro Poll for next meeting time: http://doodle.com/poll/vvn2rn36ikgpx96b
# cwebber 2 (every 2 weeks)
# geppy 1 120
# cwebber I could do every 1 week if people find it helpful
# nightpool 1 / 120
# dmitriz do we have a mailing list or message board to have async discussions on this stuff?
# ben_thatmustbeme 1 / 60 or 2/120
# maloki 2 120
# MMN-work I'll jus read the minutes, I probably don't have more time than 1/month .)
# ben_thatmustbeme you can also leave messages here too
# nightpool logs ^
# geppy 1 week, 120 minutes
# cwebber 1 90
# FrankMurphy 2/120
# Gargron 1^60
# Gargron oops
# Gargron 1 60
# dmitriz 1, *
# eknutson 2 60
# ben_thatmustbeme 8 / 600
# KevinMarks_ 2w 60
# nightpool 1 90 is good actually. I think this meeting should probably go a little longer though
# nightpool because it's a kickoff
# maloki Maybe it's popular because people want to get through all these "pent up" discussions :)
# dmitriz is the lack of mailing list / message board incidental, or intentional?
# ben_thatmustbeme also as a "social" group, its good to use social methods
# nightpool I think github works pretty well as async
# nightpool re: mailing lists
# cwebber scribenick: cwebber
# cwebber aaronpk: I think you covered most of it, mailing lists tend to drag out whereas github links tend to allow for resolutions; irc tends to be great when you have the logs
# dmitriz do we have a CG github repo?
# sandro star this: https://github.com/swicg/general
# dmitriz aha
# cwebber aaronpk: I'm not inclined to add another channel, mailing list free has worked great for indieweb
# cwebber q?
# nightpool +1
# geppy +1
# eknutson +1
# Gargron +1
# cwebber +1
# FrankMurphy -1
# maloki +1
# MMN-work +0.5
# cwebber ack FrankMurphy
# FrankMurphy (mic not working) is data portability within the scope of the ActivityPub spec? Textbook use case is a user wanting to take his content from one ActivityPub-compliant instance to another.
# MMN-work PS. I'm not a customer with GitHub so if I were to start discussing issues I guess I'd have to relay it through others. But I also realise I'm probably not going to be the one taking on issues .)
# nightpool Having client-to-server in the spec gives it some amount of data portability, right?
# Gargron +q to follower portability
# MMN-work aaronpk: Yes, but I started cleaning out accounts at proprietary disservices a couple of years ago.
# dmitriz incidentally, cross-domain identity is a pre-requisite for being able to export/transfer your followers & contacts list
# cwebber q?
# cwebber ack Gargron
# nightpool yeah follower exfil is a big deal.
# dmitriz export & import is slightly different, though, than destructively “moving” followers
# MMN-work dmitriz: I guess export is just "download my activitystream" .)
# dmitriz but specifically export for the followers list / contact book
# MMN-work (that's how data portability - but not identity moving - is done (when it works) in GNU social)
# maloki Right now it's actually just follows on export. Not your posts.
# dmitriz globally unique? or unique per domain?
# dmitriz oh ok
# cwebber q?
# cwebber ack cwebber
# dmitriz for one, sounds like we need to clarify, with regards to WebFinger and redirects
# dmitriz yes please!
KevinMarks__ joined the channel
# cwebber ack sandro
# geppy (speaking of which, is rhiaro/Amy here? or is she defending her thesis?)
# cwebber geppy, she got her thesis in and is now on a meditation retreat :)
# geppy (Nice!)
# ben_thatmustbeme https://github.com/swicg/general/issues/1 created, thanks to sandro
# dmitriz that’s not quite a mismatch, in that WebFinger is just a mechanism to *resolve* an email to a URL
# cwebber we have an issue about this in activitypub btw https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/194
# dmitriz q+
# MMN-work +q to explain acct: usage and user URI
# cwebber q+
# nightpool q+ to migration faq in general
# cwebber q-
# cwebber q+ to talk about webfinger
# cwebber ack dmitriz
# cwebber q?
# cwebber ack MMN-work
# cwebber sandro, see PM btw
# maloki Which is why you should be me@aaronpk.com ;)
# cwebber ack nightpool;
# cwebber ack nightpool
# cwebber q+ sandro
# dmitriz useful link explaining WebFinger and using WebFist as a fallback mechanism: http://www.onebigfluke.com/2013/06/bootstrapping-webfinger-with-webfist.html
# cwebber ack cwebber
# KevinMarks__ webfist.org is down :(
# dmitriz dohhh
# MMN-work shakes his webfist high
# cwebber ack sandro
# KevinMarks__ I would love to replace webfinger with a small rel template
# maloki *yes*
# ben_thatmustbeme Gargron++ "thanks to mastodon"
# KevinMarks__ yes to what, maloki?
# cwebber q?
# maloki My reaction to "thanks to mastodon" :>
# Gargron q+ to importance of webfinger
# nightpool q+
# cwebber ack Gargron
# KevinMarks__ q+ to say why webfinger is creaky and overkill
# MMN-work Btw, WebFinger lets you do a URL lookup and not just acct: (the acct: uri is separate from WebFinger/RFC7033
user1 joined the channel
# cwebber q?
# MMN-work since it just says "a domain name should respond to resources on this URL" not speciying the format of the resource
# cwebber ack nightpool
# cwebber ack KevinMarks__
# cwebber q?
# KevinMarks__ I wrote a bit at https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/AccountDiscovery
# MMN-work KevinMarks: Let's talk more about the rel= stuff over OStatus, I remember you mentioning it on that videopodthing and I totally want to make sure GNU social works with indieweb if there are any implementations that desire it.
# ben_thatmustbeme KevinMarks++
# MMN-work KevinMarks__: *goes to link*
# KevinMarks__ the rel stuff I discussed at http://www.kevinmarks.com/distributed-verify.html
# Gargron +1
# nightpool +1
# maloki +1
# cwebber +1
# dmitriz +1
# KevinMarks__ +1
# ben_thatmustbeme MMN-work, i'd definitely be interested in that discussion
# geppy +1
# FrankMurphy +1
# MMN-work +/- 0
# KevinMarks__ q+ to ask if the swicg should take over https://www.w3.org/community/ostatus/ formally
# cwebber RESOLVED: Would like to extend the Social Web WG so there's time to update ActivityPub, to take into account currently exciting projects
# cwebber ack KevinMarks__
# 
Zakim KevinMarks__, you wanted to ask if the swicg should take over https://www.w3.org/community/ostatus/ formally
# cwebber q?
# MMN-work Rollerstatus tyccoon
# dmitriz I ran into that problem as well (the ostatus specs being down)
# KevinMarks__ q+ to say use the wiki https://www.w3.org/community/ostatus/wiki/Main_Page
# nightpool that's probably not the right place for it?
# nightpool But somewhere, yeah
# FrankMurphy Rollercoaster Tycoon... The imagination runs wild
# nightpool cwebber -- for puns
# cwebber q?
# cwebber ack KevinMarks__
# Zakim KevinMarks__, you wanted to say use the wiki https://www.w3.org/community/ostatus/wiki/Main_Page
# dmitriz what’s the relationship again between this group & the SocialWG?
# ben_thatmustbeme you cannot i don't believe
# dmitriz heh
# ben_thatmustbeme waves
# MMN-work Cheers!
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber++
# KevinMarks__ ah. well, you can always edit this wiki
# ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk++
# FrankMurphy Thanks, cwebber!
# KevinMarks__ or the indieweb one
# cwebber aaronpk++
# nightpool cwebber: ++
# nightpool oops let me try that again
# nightpool cwebber++
# ben_thatmustbeme trackbot end meeting
# RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/05-social-minutes.html trackbot
# ben_thatmustbeme wait what?
# MMN-work goes back to work
# cwebber oops
# KevinMarks__ we could just use the loqi logs
# ben_thatmustbeme its easy enought to fix that up from logs as everyone spoke i think
# MMN-work Gargron: I've got an OStatus W3C account thingie, I could probably edit the wiki but I think Evan has to do stuff for the front page. (I'm leaving with this user, MMN-o is still here)
# KevinMarks__ mastodon to h-feed translator BTW http://www.unmung.com/mastoview
# cwebber :)
# cwebber yes I agree!
# cwebber not bad for a kick-off meeting
# cwebber it went so well we had to extend it to 1.5x the scheduled time :)
# nightpool cwebber, aaronpk: can someone write up the meeting proceedure stuff? just a quick reference to the bot incantations, attendees, scribing, stuff like that
# nightpool would be super helpful
# KevinMarks__ composability++
# maloki Bye guys, thank you for the invite. :)
# sandro here's one guite to the bots.... https://www.w3.org/dpub/docs/scribing-guidelines.xhtml
# maloki feel free to cc me when some new dates are set, and I'll boost it to my meager following :D
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro, thats behind login
# cwebber maloki++
# ben_thatmustbeme mine works, yes, but others won't have them
# ben_thatmustbeme there are several links here for scribing stuff https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#Scribes
# cwebber sandro, aaronpk: I thought the Mumble + IRC setup worked pretty well, what did you think?
# cwebber now to make that cert not self-signed ;)
# aaronpk minutes posted https://www.w3.org/wiki/SocialCG/2017-05-05/minutes
# cwebber aaronpk: fast work!
# cwebber aaronpk++
# cwebber geppy: btw
# cwebber you wanted to talk about helping with the activitypub tests?
# aaronpk nightpool: https://www.w3.org/wiki/SocialCG#Meeting_Process did I forget anything?
# geppy Yes! I might be called out the door in a minute, but I'm definitely interested.
# geppy (Haven't been called out the door yet, though.)
# cwebber geppy: so, I'm going to be doing some cleanup of things this weekend, since I'm changing tactics a bit after talking to Evan
# geppy Oh, okay. Sounds good to me. Did you get my email?
# cwebber geppy: one thing in the meanwhile, are you willing to install the Guix package manager? (are you on a gnu/linux distro?)
# geppy *my email address
# cwebber geppy: oh I think I haven't yet
# geppy Oh, I PMed it to you, I'm me at geppy.im
# geppy Sure thing! I'll just put it in a Docker container, probably. I'm on Windows. (Don't tell anyone.) :)
# cwebber :)
# cwebber I *might* be able to make a docker image with the necessary stuff set up, but I'm not sure
# cwebber theoretically guix can do that
# cwebber I've never tried it
# ben_thatmustbeme btw, with the exception of diaspora i think all the major players in the social web now have parsable mf2
# ben_thatmustbeme either deployed or coming out in the next version
# ben_thatmustbeme i need to get on diaspora for that
# nightpool aaronpk: maybe mention something about "topic:"s? now that I'm reading the scribe docs.
# dmitriz does anybody have a link to the (AS/AP?) javascript blog engine eknutson mentioned?
# sandro the webfinger question I wanted to ask is: can we please try to actually include email server at all these email-like addresses? At least forwarding? Maybe that's not practical. I think I want to try https://mailinabox.email/ but maybe I'm being a fool.
# dmitriz what do you mean?
# dmitriz oh, as in, have the various activitypub or whatever servers also run email servers?
# dmitriz hmm, that’s tough.
# nightpool sandro: mastodon gets around this by advertising identifiers with @user@host
# nightpool it's a small hack but it works well
# dmitriz nice
# nightpool (this may just be an emergent behavior, honestly, I don't know)
# nightpool well, it's nice from a user's perspective
# dmitriz it differentiates the identifyer tho
# dmitriz how did twitter handles seem to you initially?
# nightpool it's kind of the way +IDs work. For all of google plus' faults, you were never confused about what was going on if someone gave you a google plus address.
# nightpool sandro: I agree that twitter has been getting rid of that, but that's still the dominant way I see people exchange twitter handles verbally or in text
# nightpool "I'm @nightpool on twitter, or you can check out my website at ..." etc
# nightpool I think it's a very small step for users to "I'm @nightpool@cybre.space"
# nightpool general question: is there a difference between https://www.w3.org/wiki/SocialCG/2017-05-05/minutes and https://www.w3.org/2017/05/05-social-minutes.html?
# nightpool where?
# cwebber the @foo@bar stuff is inherited behavior from GNU Social which inherits from StatusNet which inherits it from being a Twitter clone
# dmitriz they all have web domains
# cwebber and inherits it from before federation even existed in StatusNet/Laconica!
# nightpool sandro: something like @news@nasa.gov
# cwebber the @bar in @foo[@bar] was added later
# dmitriz actually them being @nytimes@nytimes.com would be a benefit, in terms of verifiability / legit-ness, for users
# dmitriz ok that too
# dmitriz @nytimes.com should also work
# dmitriz right right
# nightpool but there's also like @breaking@nytimes.com and @contact@nytimes.com
# nightpool there's room for all of that stuff to
# nightpool why force single-user-ness on companies?
# dmitriz for what user though?
# dmitriz as in, somebody logs in to an Admin panel. what do they type into the Username: box?
# ben_thatmustbeme really hates the two @ things
# nightpool I think it's fine to have a domain be an identifier but we should be cautious in that this is an issue that will affect nearly zero users, rounding down.
# dmitriz I’m just curious how you picture the UX working
# dmitriz nightpool: completely agree, re nearly zero users.
# nightpool expecting people who want to join our social network to be able to navigate the DNS system is super weird. the system is antiquated as heck
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: also the conflict with email addresses without it
# nightpool that's all I'm saying.
# ben_thatmustbeme gets so messy
# dmitriz seems legit.
# nightpool I guess this goes against the mastodon norm that brands are evil, frankly.
# cwebber On the other hand, doing a "mention" of someone using https://katyperry.com/ in the middle of a microblog post
# cwebber is kinda weird
# nightpool it's all about communities, you know?
# nightpool sandro: but what about katyperry@sony.com?
# nightpool :P
# cwebber aaronpk: what about @katyperry.com/u/katyperry/ ;)
# cwebber sandro: oh ok @https://katyperry.com/u/katyperry/
# cwebber which is a different uri from @http://katyperry.com/u/katyperry/ just to confuse implementors :)
# dmitriz lol
# dmitriz wait.. but what’s wrong with just @katyperry.com? all joking aside, that’s quite usable
# dmitriz in addition to @whoever@example.com
# nightpool I don't have anything really against it, I'm just being obstinate because I think that we gain better social networks by forcing people to join communities, instead of single-user instances.
# dmitriz nightpool: highly disagree with that. :)
# nightpool so I'm loathe to optomize things just for them
# dmitriz hideous abstract entities need their own account too, tho.
# dmitriz it’s not really optimizing.
# nightpool aaronpk: I get that you feel that way, but ultimately, you're .1% of people who can do that sort of thing.
# nightpool I mean, the way our DNS system works prevents it from ever being possible, frankly.
# nightpool but we have to acknowledge the limitations of the platforms we're building on
# JanKusanagi [5/5/17 20:36] <cwebber> On the other hand, doing a "mention" of someone using https://katyperry.com/ in the middle of a microblog post ← well, as long as the addressing is in separate fields, like Pump.io does, you don't need to have that "mention" in the post contents
# cwebber JanKusanagi: that's true
# sandro I'm hoping we can agree to suppose both/all options here. @katyperry@sony.com @katyperry.com and https://katyperry.com If we're willing to use wf or a template system, we should be able to do all-of-the-above easily enough.
# cwebber JanKusanagi: so, since we have
{"tag": [{"id": "https://katyperry.com/"}]}# cwebber it doesn't even matter what's in the content assuming the client knows how to infer participants based on the message
# cwebber sorry that should be a
{"type": "Mention", "id": "https://katyperry.com/"}# cwebber sandro, I direct messaged introduced you to FrankMurphy on Mastodon btw, see there for details, since they want to help the group with some things and I think you'd have interesting stuff to talk about
# dmitriz nightpool: corporations are their own legit entities. that should be addressable in social media
# nightpool dmitriz: disagree :)
# nightpool Again, I'm not really against @host in any important fashion, but I want to make it clear that we're adding affordances for, basically, people who have access to the DNS system, and what that means.
# nightpool it's misleading to say that this is about identity, because *everyone* deserves identity.
# nightpool even if they don't have a domain name
# dmitriz but it’s not just for people
# dmitriz it’s for organizations too
# nightpool again, I don't think corporations have an inherent right to exist as entities in the social space.
# dmitriz uh...
KevinMarks joined the channel
# nightpool I mean, I get that people disagree with me on this, but it's the perspective I come from
# cwebber it's going to be impossible to keep corporations out; whether you want to follow them or not, I dunno
# cwebber we don't have to design around them
# cwebber but they will certainly be there
# cwebber uhoh :)
# nightpool cwebber: absolutely. I'm not disagreeing with that.
# cwebber backs out of the room
# cwebber aaronpk: for a minute there I was afraid you were going to say corporations are people :)
# nightpool no?
# cwebber corporations and people intersect, yes that's true
# nightpool the line is that you're also a person?
# nightpool I said that they don't have an *inherent* right to exist
# dmitriz sandro: +1
# nightpool uh if we can pivot away from the current topic a bit, what's the argument for https?://whatever?
# nightpool I think it would be super hard to teach users to look at a URL and go "oh, yes, that's an actor" rather then "oh, that's a page" (/resource/whatever)
# nightpool well, you can't put it into a browser if it's on a business card :P
# nightpool in more general terms, there's no way for it to be immediately obvious to a user what type of thing it could be
# nightpool which is where the @whatever is useful
# sandro I actually really like mastodon's other convention of https://domain/@USER but the more common convention is https://domain/users/USER
# nightpool I think I could maybe be tempted by "if availible, in order of preference: @user@domain, @domain, URI"
KevinMarks joined the channel
# nightpool so that, if it's availible, always use @user@domain, if that's not availible, use @domain, if that's not availible, use the URI
# nightpool (and only use the URI in places in the user interface where it is already clear from context that it's an actor)
# nightpool sandro: right, you can't DO anything with it, but you KNOW what it is
# 
bigbluehat I like NPM's use better...matches the much older (even pre-web?) style username convention of using `~` prefix: http://npmjs.org/~bigbluehat
# sandro nightpool, sure, but I was answering why https://... is nice.
# nightpool sandro: I would assume that they might be
# nightpool sandro: well, in that case, wouldn't you just type it into your favorite AP client? that's what we do in the fediverse
# nightpool So for example a domain could have a "default account" that is both "@support@zendesk.com" and "@zendesk.com"
# nightpool right
# nightpool I don't think you should be *forced* to
# nightpool which is why I listed them in the order I did, so that people who prefered not to have a user would just not create one
# nightpool but users would be required to be shown if availible.
# sandro But what is the pumbing? When I write a post and mention @bob@alice.com or @alice.com or https://alice.com or https://alice.com/users/bob ... what AS is generated? (ie do the @things get turned into http URLs BEFORE being put in AS2, or not until the recipient wants to deref them?) And does the text get transformed or stay as the composing-UI left it?
# nightpool that's a great question
# nightpool I guess to keep things simple with the existing spec, I would say that you should transform all @mentions into hrefs, and then make tag entities for them, and then substitute them back on the client side, although that's just off the top of my head and I don't know if it covers everything.
# nightpool I guess there's also the distiction between "metions @nightpool in passing" and "tags @nightpool (with the intent of sending a notification)", if clients want to support that
# nightpool although I guess that somewhat is covered by addressing?
# nightpool hmm. maybe that's not an issue then.
# sandro I'm also thinking about facebook does mentions. You CAN use an @, but mostly it tries to just recognize entity names, and use drop-down menus to confirm its recognition. So in that kind of a system, the user only ever sees the entity ID by clicking on it, in which case URL form is probably appropriate.
# cwebber aaronpk: that's how some Pump.IO clients do things right now
# cwebber the client figures out who they are
# cwebber and then in the tags field you can add mentions of specific people
# cwebber obviously we're going to need to come up with a good answer for how to do things with webfinger and ap though
# cwebber whether it's something that simple, with clear ways to fetch webfinger style addresses
# cwebber or something with a bit more process to it
# cwebber I think this call made that pretty clear that multiple existing federation systems want an answer
tantek joined the channel
# aaronpk Gargron: btw you mentioned you are in germany! are you anywhere near Düsseldorf or Nürnberg? I'll be there next week for IndieWebCamp and it'd be great if you could make it! https://indiewebweek.indieweb.org/
# Loqi IndieWebWeek 2017 https://indiewebweek.indieweb.org/img/iwc-logo.svg
# 
tantek so we've never used "GMT" in any of our telcon times for #social or SWWG so that was unfortunate. W3C convention is to use US Eastern time to pin telcon times, and typically also offer US Pacific equivalent, and only third UTC or others. E.g. https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#Meetings
# cwebber uhoh tantek
# cwebber sorry tantek, I was trying to be as i18n as I could!
# cwebber (though if I was going to be really i18n I guess I shoulda used UTC anyway)
# cwebber yes yes :)
# cwebber tantek: did you see the poll for the next meeting?
# cwebber just used what we've used before...
# cwebber huh it was showing something else before
# cwebber I had it using the old interface
# cwebber ugh
# cwebber you can select the old doodle interface
# cwebber but you have to use the new one to do it
# cwebber fail
# cwebber (node is fine, but I sure hate npm)
# tantek lol the fallback version is at a http://doodle.com/kiss/ URL
# cwebber lol
# cwebber tantek: probably because many sites aren't going to have fallbacks anymore
# cwebber since most of the work goes into building a js-only interface
# cwebber is not endorsing this
# nightpool really?
# cwebber tantek: sadly (and again, not endorsing it) probably once you're using something like react
# nightpool when I was last at a big company where we had a js-only interface (angular) we had a ton of server side rendering stuff
sandroid2 joined the channel
# nightpool and we were super excited for angular2 because it let us do angular rendering serverside.
# cwebber tantek: I'm not saying it's not worth the effort, just saying it probably is more work
# nightpool oh, yeah, it's definitely more work though
# cwebber especially if you're *not* using javascript on teh backend
# cwebber then you have disjoint templating
# nightpool (: (:
# cwebber this is one reason guile -> js is really high on my wishlist items
# cwebber tantek: well I'm talking about if someone is using a newer reactive-style js framework
# cwebber tantek: https://github.com/tantek/cassis this?
# cwebber tantek: is this a php implementation in js????
# cwebber that sounds like a hell of a project given how many edges php has! :O
# cwebber oh ok.
# cwebber yes if you have some language that can be a common abstraction layer and then lower itself to something else you can do it
# ben_thatmustbeme CASSIS is an impressive bit of code
# cwebber https://github.com/tantek/cassis/blob/master/package.json#L25 wow CC BY-SA for code
# cwebber tantek: btw CC BY-SA 4.0 is GPL compatible
# cwebber consider a version bump :)
# cwebber tantek: well I don't see a specific COPYING file so I just jumped to package.json
# cwebber tantek: I won't go into my opinions on CC licenses for code today :) but! part of the reason CC BY-SA 4.0 is GPL compatible is because I started the process of pushing for it when I worked at CC
# cwebber (not claiming credit because I didn't do the most of the work (the legal team did))
# cwebber I just raised a lot of fuss about it ;)
# cwebber though
# cwebber now that it did happen in 4.0 I guess that article isn't needed anymore :)
KevinMarks joined the channel
# tantek cwebber, I was serious: https://github.com/tantek/cassis/pulls :)
# nightpool cwebber: ... have you gone into your thoughts on cc licenses for code anywhere I could read about them?
# cwebber nightpool: well the above link is kind of related
# nightpool I would be Interested In Doing So
# nightpool cool!
# cwebber but as in terms of whether or not to use cc licenses for code, I care a lot less now that CC BY-SA 4.0 is gpl compatible
# dmitriz whoa, interesting. (re games & functional content)
# cwebber I also have strong opinions about CC0 because I'm the one that submitted it to the FSF and the OSI to get accepted as an open source license
# cwebber and then it blew up in my face
# dmitriz blew up how?
# cwebber tl;dr CC0 explicitly disclaims patent rights from being covered
# cwebber unlike expat/bsd/etc which just don't talk about it
# cwebber er
# cwebber not disclaims
# cwebber it explicitly excludes
# cwebber so there's an equitable estoppel defense with expat (mit)/bsd/etc
# cwebber where you can say "well it was implied that you wouldn't sue me for patents"
# cwebber but since CC0 1.0 *explicitly says* this doesn't cover patents
# cwebber you could use it as a vehicle to get people to adopt code then more easily sue them in court for patents
# cwebber so if you use CC0 for code, add a patent waiver.
# nightpool oh, wow, that's nasty
# cwebber former job as CC tech lead and licence pedant
# ben_thatmustbeme wow, interesting
# tantek cwebber - hence why I worked on making this happen at Mozilla - to use CC0+OWFa (for patent stuff) https://wiki.mozilla.org/Standards/license
# cwebber tantek: oh hey I didn't see this
# cwebber tantek: there's still some interest at CC on getting a more software compatible CC0
# cwebber maybe we should start up that convo again
# cwebber tantek: interesting
# cwebber tantek: https://github.com/tantek/cassis/blob/master/cassis.php why one line per function btw??
# cwebber oh ok
# cwebber that makes a lot more sense
# cwebber I was like whoa how do you edit this
sandroid2 joined the channel
# cwebber oh ok
# cwebber tantek: gotcha ok
# cwebber tantek: btw I see you're also out for the weekend on the doodle poll in 2 weeks, I assume that's also becasue of IWC
# cwebber I'm wondering if next meeting in 2 weeks we should do at same time on friday as we did this week, but the week after testing how the sunday at that same time works
# cwebber mainly because there are some people who expressed that they'd like to make it but can't do weekdays due to work
KevinMarks joined the channel
# cwebber tantek: heh :)
# cwebber tantek: though you do have the advantage that your work supports you calling into these things!
# cwebber but anyway
# cwebber probably the next call should be on the friday anyway
# cwebber tantek: well mumble does work on phones I hear :)
# cwebber should give it a test at some point
# cwebber tantek: no cell phone you mean?
# cwebber yes
# cwebber android and ios clients
# cwebber :)
# cwebber surprisingly it seemed like it worked pretty well... it seems like the main thing is to make sure if you're dialing in from a computer to wear headphones, but otherwise things seem to have worked pretty cleanly
# cwebber at the very least, I've been on many far more disasterous VoIP calls :)
KevinMarks_ joined the channel
# sandro nightpool, I'm filling in the issue statement for https://github.com/swicg/general/issues/1 which is going to make your comment read differently, sorry
KevinMarks joined the channel
# nightpool thanks sandro, updated.
dmitriz joined the channel
# aaronpk speaking of Brands™ https://twitter.com/Wendys/status/860178107927539712
timbl joined the channel
# cwebber btw, probably largely my fault
# cwebber cleaned up https://www.w3.org/wiki/SocialCG/2017-05-05/minutes a bunch
# cwebber we kept forgetting to do "scribenick:" despite switching scribes
# cwebber yep
# cwebber I was looking at this and was like "man aaron sure is talking a lot more than I remembered, like 80% of the time"
# cwebber "oh shoot"
dmitriz, sandroid2, KevinMarks and geppy joined the channel