#social 2017-05-04

2017-05-04 UTC
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@okapies ActivityPub 仕様書の例に唐突に出てくる石井健蔵さん何者なんだ…。 https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/#actor-objects (twitter.com/_/status/859997178856480768)
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aaronpk good morning #socia
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aaronpk l
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aaronpk oops
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ben_thatmustbeme good morning #socialoops
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ben_thatmustbeme :P
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ben_thatmustbeme socialloop, sounds like a social software actually
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sandro has anyone done anything with algorithmic feeds in decentralized social?
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aaronpk closest thing i've done is https://bulletin.p3k.io/indieweb which ranks URLs shared
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aaronpk based on how many people are talking about them, and scoring the links on a few factors
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aaronpk the source for this one is the indieweb chat logs, but it works with any h-feed
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cwebber sandro: btw have you been watching how mastodon uses Content Warnings?
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cwebber I was skeptical but it's surprisingly effective
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cwebber I wonder whether or not it may fit into AS2 as a special tag type
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cwebber kind of like how Mention is a special tag type
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cwebber but this one indicates that users may wish to hide content by default unless explicitly exposed
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cwebber so for example, if there was a violent protest
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cwebber I might add content warning tags for both "gore" and "politics"
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cwebber (I've been surprised btw that people often want CW for politics but I guess many people do want it)
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csarven Does CW do anything particularly different than say show/hide content with certain tags?
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cwebber csarven: nope, that's pretty much it. though mastodon doesn't specifically use a tag
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cwebber it's more of a short phrase
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cwebber but I was thinking that it might be implementable as tags
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csarven s/tag/term
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csarven either or
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aaronpk it's so funny cause this is kinda analogous to the "channels" idea i implemented in my twitter clone 10 years ago. that let you choose which "channel" to post things in, and people could follow one or more channels of your posts. that way you kind of get the CW built in based on who/what you're following.
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cwebber csarven: here I do mean tags, as in I'm talking about ading something to the tags field in as2
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cwebber aaronpk: I think it's more than just a filter of content to subscribe to
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sandro aaronpk, that's one aggregate for the world, right? I'm thinking more that I want my reader to help me find the stuff I really need/want to see, amongst all the things I'm allowed to see / subscribed to. It might work something like spam-scoring systems, annotating the posts in various way en route to my client.
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cwebber it's a way to have stuff come through the feed and decide if you do and don't want to see it
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cwebber aaronpk: oh maybe you're talking to sandro :)
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aaronpk sandro: that's an aggregation of links shared by specifica people i'm following
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cwebber oh no you said CW
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aaronpk cwebber: my point is that i'm challenging the "single feed" view
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aaronpk both producing and consuming
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cwebber aaronpk: there's good reasons to challenge the single feed view :)
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cwebber aaronpk: though I think CW in a way is meant for a single feed
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cwebber which is what's most interesting
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cwebber it's a way to have a stream of content and avoid some things that you might be sensitive to
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sandro I think single feed with annotations is provably equivalent to multiple feeds. IE you just annotate it with the feed it would have been in.
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cwebber you could probably extract either
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cwebber the reason I mean CW should be a *special* tag is that unlike many other tags, it might be a filter of things to avoid, rather than things you want to find
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cwebber eg you may want to avoid pornography, or gore, but maybe someone else is fine with it
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sandro I have seen CW, and like it. I spent a few minutes this morning, in the name of science, checking what was behind cw+nsfw blocks. It seemed to me to be like 20% PG-13, 70% R and 10% NC-17.
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cwebber :)
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aaronpk i've seen it used for spoiler alerts too
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sandro (mostly I was curious if there was hardcore stuff going on, because that would probably be good to know)
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sandro I kinda feel like CW should be a metadata on a tag. So like #nsfw is inherently (or at least by strong default) also cw, as is #spoiler, and ... whatever. But the recipient could toggle whether #gore was treated as CW or not. CW as a flag by itself seems annoying.
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sandro The ontology of possible CWs is .... a bit scarey.
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csarven StatusNet had groups. Notifications would include @groupname and so anyone subscribed to that group would see it, otherwise not.
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sandro Of course, really CWs should be a separate post. I want my friends to be able to CW-tag things for me.
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sandro csarven, do you have a pointer or brief explanation for how group federation worked/works?
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csarven woah, really don't recall.
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csarven I want to see it worked same as subscribing to any user on some other instance but..
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csarven s/see/say
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sandro That is a way that would work perfectly -- you could make a mailing-list bot that worked like that, without any server/protocol code at all.
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csarven Oh.. not @groupname but !groupname
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cwebber sandro: csarven: there was conversation about how to do !groupname stuff in AP and honestly I think it's totally straightforward
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cwebber it's just a collection
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sandro The question is are groupnames namespaced? If now, who gets to pick what each name means?
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cwebber you should be able to follow it
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cwebber sandro: ah, you mean between instances?
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sandro of course
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cwebber @!groupname@identic.a ;)
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Loqi +1
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cwebber Loqi: I'm glad we're not in a meeting where that showed up as a vote
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sandro So why have the "!"? Just groupname@site
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csarven Same as usernames, no? That is ns'd
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cwebber sandro: ! was the equivalent of #
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cwebber sandro: #foo is a tag
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cwebber !foo is a group
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csarven Yea
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cwebber sandro: it's not that it has to be that way I think, it's that that's how statusnet parsed how to sort things out
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sandro yeah, seems unnecessarily complicated.
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sandro and therefor confusing. Pretend it's a user, a bot which boosts everything that gets sent to it. Or some of the things, if it's moderating. That makes it very clear how it works.
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cwebber sandro: offtopic, what client are you using that's leading to four spaces between your sentences??? ;)
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sandro My brain. That's how I indicate a long pause.
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sandro S o r r y :-)
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cwebber :)
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sandro (I use hexchat these days)
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cwebber the combination irc client and hex editor
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wilkie yeah, it'd have to be something like @!groupname@site for those without the bangtag support
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cwebber needs more interrobangs
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wilkie you could infer that a "!groupname" exists in AS2 in a tag with the name = "!groupname" and then render it however you want tho... to keep the federation consistent at the scope of a node?
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cwebber ⸮foo <- a group/collection of content that belongs in foo, but only ironically
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cwebber https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony_punctuation context
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wilkie unicode solves all problems
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sandro So, coming back to algorithmic feeds and coincidentally also CW, I'm thinking 3rd-party-tagging is the way to do it. You give an algorithmic-feed-engine read access to your inbox and you subscribe to its output, and it outputs 3rd party tags, so then your UI can easily just filter on those tags to show you the good stuff.
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aaronpk that's a neat idea
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sandro thanks :-) hoping it'll work
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cwebber sandro: it is an interesting idea
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aaronpk i've been toying with a similar idea for adding algorithmic tags to my photos via micropub
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aaronpk i found a machine tag api that does a pretty good job of identifying things in the photos
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cwebber sandro: I'm hoping more of these tools can be run without third parties reading your content kinda, but that may be because I'm in the Maximum Individual Freedom (TM) camp or something, and sometimes maybe I'm unrealistic for it
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aaronpk so it would subscribe to my feed, and any posts that have a photo it could go back and update to add tags
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cwebber well
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cwebber not maximum individual freedom I guess
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cwebber I'm not a libertarian
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sandro cwebber, I'm all for running these things in an OS jail, so the only thing they can physically do is annotate your posts for you.
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sandro (or a browser jail, if you prefer)
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sandro aaronpk, which tagger? There was one I played with at csail.mit.edu that surprised me with its quality when I tested it. And there's a twitter bot that's hillariously bad. One of my kids and I laugh now when we see something knowing how it would mis-label it.
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aaronpk the one i found is a service, so you have to be okay with sending all your photos to it for recognition https://www.clarifai.com/
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sandro aaronpk, I was thinking of: http://places.csail.mit.edu/demo.html which I'm reminded now deals only with a certain kind of photo. On the plus side, it's downloadable.
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aaronpk ah cool
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sandro clarifai looks way easier to use :)
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sandro https://developer.clarifai.com/models is very cool
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aaronpk haha yes, the tradeoffs of a hosted service
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Loqi rofl
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cwebber the recent stuff with Uber and Unroll.me make me a bit nervous about having a third party read your timeline
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cwebber I'm assuming everyone probably saw that?
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cwebber https://theintercept.com/2017/04/24/stop-using-unroll-me-right-now-it-sold-your-data-to-uber/
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aaronpk only use third parties you trust?
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sandro Of course, I want it to recognize the people and things in my life, so that puts me into pay-as-you territory.
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cwebber aaronpk: a lot of people thought they trusted unroll.me
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cwebber it can be pretty hard for users to determine trust
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aaronpk but unroll.me was not a paid service
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aaronpk so obviously they're going to make their money some othrt way
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aaronpk if you're not paying then you're the product and all
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cwebber aaronpk: Uber is a paid service and they're still doing shady as f*** stuff with users and data mining
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wilkie ~~obviously~~
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sandro we need a much more serious version of tos;dr. Like A/B/C/D/F ratings as far as respecting their users.
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wilkie obviously it isn't obvious
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aaronpk i dunno at this point if you sign up for a free service you should not expect the service has your best interests at heart
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aaronpk but if you pay for a service, then you can be rightfully mad if they do shady stuff with your data as well
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wilkie that's an incredibly simplistic worldview
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wilkie all of our sites are free :)
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aaronpk i don't have to sign up for your site
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cwebber Parker Higgins had a really good comment on that https://mastodon.xyz/@xor/1490788
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sandro My heuristic: I trust folks that have pretty and funny websites that seem really useful.
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wilkie people shouldn't have to rely on trust nor the implied trust of payment. we shouldn't be building systems like that.
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aaronpk i dunno i still think it's naive to assume a service like unroll.me (you dont pay for it, scans all your email, has no obvious revenue model regardless of whether they charge you) wouldn't be pursuing alternative ways to make money some of which are going to piss off the users
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sandro I'm pretty sure we'll have to give up a LOT of functionality if we want to stop trusting lots of systems. (Although we can do a lot better if we give users real choice, and real information on which to make those choices.)
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aaronpk if i can look at a free service and determine how they are able to sustain themselves then i may trust it even if i'm not the one paying them
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wilkie I guess my point is that this is not "obvious" heh
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wilkie anyway, most people can't make that distinction, they need help
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aaronpk really tho? I remember seeing unroll.me ages ago and was like nope
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aaronpk but yes it shoudl be easier for more people to make these decisions
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wilkie maybe you're just a genius?
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wilkie there's just not a lot of information, especially in a world where people are expected to trust, say, google
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wilkie *shrug*
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wilkie and by genius I mean psychic :)
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sandro Bringing this back to social web: can we get federation servers to use one of a small number of TOS's and adverise which one (in /terms) and then every machine can check that and warn users before federating to there?
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sandro So e.g. my client wont let me DM a friend whose site has non-vetted /terms.
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sandro Kinda like the FOSS licenses
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cwebber sandro: MediaGoblin ships with a ToS which was based off the ToS StatusNet had (which was based off of someone else's and was CC BY(-SA?))
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sandro Sure. My key point is: Can we set the reasonable expectation that site admins will be held to their own /terms, (2) can we make there be few enough of those /terms documents that they can be machine recognized, so that users don't have to read the terms of every site any of their friends uses.
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cwebber nods
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cwebber it's generally acknowledged that copyright license proliferation is a problem in the FOSS world
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cwebber I guess a similar acknowledgment needs to come for ToS'es
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sandro I guess I / someshould should start a repo explaining this concept and gathering acceptable TOS docs.
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sandro If we can start with 2-4 nice ones -- something liKe CC -- maybe they wont need to proliferate much.
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sandro There probably need to be a couple variables, like whether how long you retain IP addresses.
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sandro But maybe that's like CC-xx-yy-zz
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cwebber sandro: default ToS in MediaGoblin https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mediagoblin.git/tree/mediagoblin/templates/mediagoblin/terms_of_service.html
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sandro Maybe it's just 1 bit -- you retain IP addresses or you dont
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cwebber sandro: IMO, and I worked at CC
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cwebber I think that CC xx-yy-zz is sometimes oversold
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cwebber really CC BY, CC BY-SA are the only good ones :)
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cwebber obviously not everyone, and not everyone at CC, agrees ;)
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sandro I'm inclined to agree. Every variation increases the cost.
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cwebber CC0 is also good but that fails the CC xx-yy-zz pattern match, and is arguably more of a waiver than a license... not that anyone but a very small segment of the world cares
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sandro So what do we call this.... "ToS Recognition" ?
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cwebber we don't want it to become a ToSal nightmare ;)
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sandro *smh*
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sandro is there an html-ized version of that mg tos i could send a lawyer?
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cwebber sandro: I'm guessing Goblin Refuge's is probably the same https://goblinrefuge.com/mediagoblin/terms
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cwebber also the doc is CC BY
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sandro I suppose this is a swicg topic. It's a new concern to want the ToS to protect people who don't know about the system and are just trying to get a message to someone who does.
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sandro I mean, email has the same problem, but for one thing email privacy is written into statute, at least in the US.
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sandro (I believe)
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cwebber speaking of, I need to get that wiki page up
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cwebber someone else is welcome to also ;)
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cwebber I have to go to a dentist appointment in the meanwhile
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cwebber bbiab!
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sandro What the heck? I just looked at how to use echidna "without CURL" and it's insanity. All it needs is a web form, but they say to use a fancy third-party service or browser plugin. Am I missing something?
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aaronpk no
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aaronpk https://pin13.net/echidna/
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aaronpk classic case of overengineering
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sandro Yeah, they should replace all that text with that web form.
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aaronpk probably the same reason pingback used XMLRPC
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sandro yep. I guess we should just laugh, but I want to cry.
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sandro aaronpk, rhiaro asked me to publish swp while she's gone, and it's not working. I'm getting the error, "Only WD and Notes are allowed!" but as far as I can tell it is a WD. Any guesses? https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tr-notifications/2017May/0028.html
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sandro aaronpk, nvm. Of course, that'
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sandro 's the error when you feed it respec input instead of respec output.
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sandro of course now I can't get it to see the previous version is right.
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aaronpk ah yeah that'd do it
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aaronpk oh funny
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aaronpk ah there were two versions published in november
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aaronpk nov 1 and nov 2
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sandro Yeah, but I've got Previous version:
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sandro https://www.w3.org/TR/2016/WD-social-web-protocols-20161102/ in the thing I'm trying to publish, which is right.
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Loqi [Amy Guy] Social Web Protocols
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aaronpk yeah that looks right. the last one from the logs sees the 1101 version as the previousVersion tho https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tr-notifications/2017May/0030.html
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sandro Arg, it was just github publication delay. curl again did it.
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aaronpk oh heh
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cwebber sandro: aaronpk: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/swicg so the swicg page is namespaced under the Socialwg
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cwebber will this make sense once the SocialWG ends?
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aaronpk looks
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aaronpk finds revision 1 created by himself
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aaronpk IIRC i made that page during a f2f meeting as a way to collect documentation on our intent of the group
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aaronpk ah yes, to create the proposal that created the group
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aaronpk that was not intended to be the "home page" of the CG
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cwebber aaronpk: good to know
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aaronpk heh, tantek created https://www.w3.org/wiki/Swicg at the same time
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aaronpk reminds cwebber of the "preview" button
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cwebber aaronpk: yeah I should know better
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cwebber I keep thinking "this time for sure" ;)
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sandro I thing https://www.w3.org/wiki/Swicg makes more sense. Or socialcg maybe
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cwebber I would be happy with SocialCG
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cwebber that matches the SocialWG thing
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sandro Yeah
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aaronpk true
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aaronpk sounds good to me
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sandro And caps CG is good
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cwebber personally I find the Social Weg Incubator Community Group a mouthful
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cwebber and I want to say SocialCG
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aaronpk tis done https://www.w3.org/wiki/SocialCG
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cwebber similar to the shorthand of SocialWG
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cwebber huzzah
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sandro I've never liked how wg is lowercase on the wiki :)
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cwebber neither :)
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aaronpk mediawiki is finicky about how it handles casing :)
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cwebber mediaWikI
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sandro very
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cwebber mediawiki hits all the intersections of case sensitivity and making case assumptions
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cwebber a great interseciton for sure
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Loqi Cwebber2 made 5 edits to [[Socialwg/swicg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=102911&oldid=100799
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cwebber lol
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cwebber 5 edits
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cwebber shameface
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cwebber aaronpk: sandro: https://www.w3.org/wiki/SocialCG/2017-05-05 what do you think?
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cwebber also is https://www.w3.org/wiki/SocialCG/2017-05-05#Participation correct?
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cwebber does joining the group mean you've assigned the agreement? I forget
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cwebber aaronpk: also feel free to add your own topics there. I know I put ActivityStreams / ActivityPub at the top which is probably less interesting to you
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nightpool cwebber: on "joining the group". Do I have to associate my real name with my w3c account?
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nightpool I tried signing up for one, but I wasn't sure if I was going to get in trouble for using an obvious pseudonym.
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cwebber this keeps coming up and I don't know the answer
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cwebber sandro?
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nightpool If the only real concern is the CLA, then I believe that I would be bound by that whichever name I used to sign it
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nightpool (it would be the same as an author who signs their contracts under their pseudonym, which happens all the time)