#social 2017-06-14

2017-06-14 UTC
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tantek after wrestling with respec (which is screwing up dates, generating a date-1 for "previous version" and "this veresion" links) which required manual post-fixing, and specberus, and echidna, new WD of PTD is published: https://www.w3.org/TR/2017/WD-post-type-discovery-20170614/
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Loqi [Tantek Çelik] Post Type Discovery
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@t Updated @W3C @SocialWebWG @PostTypeDisc Post Type Discovery WD: https://www.w3.org/TR/2017/WD-post-type-discovery-20170614/ New: Response Type Algorithm (ttk.me t4oq1) (twitter.com/_/status/874796548453957633)
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tantek checks logs
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@csarven ? LDP-CoAP http://sisinflab.poliba.it/swottools/ldp-coap/ implements #LinkedData Notifications https://www.w3.org/TR/ldn/ . All test reports: https://linkedresearch.org/ldn/tests/summary (twitter.com/_/status/874933857379917824)
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@hvdsomp Link to @w3c ActivityPub Implementation Report is dysfunctional. https://activitypub.rocks seems dead in the water… https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/ (twitter.com/_/status/874954972982632448)
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@hvdsomp Wish I had found this by @rhiaro sooner: @w3c Social Web Protocols. Explains relations between various protocols https://www.w3.org/TR/social-web-protocols/ (twitter.com/_/status/874959919841243136)
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jaywink missing some well used ones though, I guess it only includes ones which have clear specs, which makes some sense :D
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jaywink hmmm that document makes some assumptions about AP that iMHO are not in the spec
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jaywink "The receiver MUST verify the notification by fetching its source from the origin server." and "All notification POST requests are authenticated" are not there in such strictness AFAICR
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jaywink or at all except mentioned as examples of how could be done
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rhiaro hey jaywink, if you find errors or oversights in SWP please raise issues
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rhiaro thanks for reading!
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rhiaro it's possible it's not completely caught up with updates to the specs
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jaywink I'm not sure what it *should* say though ;)
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rhiaro That's okay, we can figure that out. Just flagging that something doesn't look right is useful!
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rhiaro We all have generally too much to do in here I think, so the more eyes on these kinds of things the better
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cwebber2 hi!
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cwebber2 oops
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cwebber2 looks like the activitypub.rocks certbot thing didn't auto-renew
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cwebber2 fixed
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ajordan \o/
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tsyesika waves
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cwebber2 jaywink: rhiaro: gonna join us maye? :)
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ajordan waves back
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sandro waves, hi tsyesika, long time
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sandro trackbot, start meeting
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trackbot is preparing a teleconference.
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RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/06/14-social-irc
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trackbot RRSAgent, make logs public
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RRSAgent I have made the request, trackbot
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trackbot Zakim, this will be SOCL
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Zakim ok, trackbot
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trackbot Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
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trackbot Date: 14 June 2017
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sandro chair: cwebber2
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sandro RRSAgent, pointer?
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RRSAgent See http://www.w3.org/2017/06/14-social-irc#T15-02-55
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sandro RRSAgent, make records public
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RRSAgent I have made the request, sandro
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rhiaro waves, irc only
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rhiaro hi tsyesika!
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MMN-work waves, irc only here too
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ben_thatmustbeme waves
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ben_thatmustbeme i am working at this time so i'll be listening in and only talk if needed
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ben_thatmustbeme MMN-work, i recognize that song
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aaronpk scribenick: aaronpk
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ben_thatmustbeme present+
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aaronpk cwebber2: we have a couple new people today
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MMN-work ben: They just discussed which song it was, some old one.
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ajordan present+
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MMN-work present+
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aaronpk present+
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sandro thinks we should all introduce ourselve, for th new people
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sandro present+
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tsyesika present+
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cwebber2 present+
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ben_thatmustbeme who are the new people?
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cwebber2 scribenick: cwebber2
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cwebber2 aaronpk: I'm co-chair of this group with cwebber2 and editor of a couple of specs in the Working Group
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aaronpk scribenick: aaronpk
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aaronpk ajordan: I usually go by AJ. I maintain pump.io, I started maintaining pump.io by accident. I'm in the working group and have done some work on activitypub
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ben_thatmustbeme I'll do it on IRC
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ben_thatmustbeme go ahead and i can write it up
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aaronpk cwebber2: i'm chris webber also co-chair of this group. I'm co-maintainer of mediagoblin which is implementing activitypub
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MMN-work is GNU social maintainer and interested in ActivityPub as a sort of evolution from OStatus which is what is used for federation (including WebSub, which should pass all tests as the implementation is PuSH v0.4 - we've renamed it recently in the source code).
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MMN-work prepared a statement
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jaywink present+
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cwebber2 jaywink, are you irc only?
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aaronpk MMN-work: GNU social maintainer and interested in ActivityPub as a sort of evolution from OStatus which is what is used for federation (including WebSub, which should pass all tests as the implementation is PuSH v0.4 - we've renamed it recently in the source code).
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aaronpk copied from /me because /me things don't get included in minutes
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ajordan MMN-work: did you submit an implementation report? ;)
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jaywink cwebber2: yes
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cwebber2 jaywink, would you like to re-introduce yourself? we have a couple new people
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ben_thatmustbeme Hi, Ben Roberts (ben.thatmustbe.me), Invited Expert in the Working Group, dev in the IndieWeb, Editor of JF2, and have a bunch of individual projects going
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MMN-work ajordan: No, I've only tested the subscription so far. And this whole not-customer-with-github-etc .)
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MMN-work ajordan: Tested with websub.rocks that is.
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ajordan MMN-work: gotcha
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cwebber2 rhiaro, would you like to introduce yourself?
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aaronpk sandro: i'm sandro hawke, on the w3c staff. staff don't really participate in community groups. i'm here because i really believe in decentralization and i think this microblogging approach is a good start but really i want to decentralize everything
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sandro s/really/normally/
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aaronpk tsyesika: I implemented federation on GNU MediaGoblin, and am coeditor on activitypub but have largely been dormant in the WG over the last year but hopefully i can participate in the group again as well as the community group
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jaywink hi all (introduction). I work on my own project Socialhome mostly, which federates using the Diaspora protocol. SocialWG invited expert (though not super active), interested in implementing ActivityPub when the time is right. Generally interested in federated social web :)
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cwebber2 thanks jaywink
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rhiaro I'm rhiaro, offline Amy Guy, SWWG staff contact among other things. I'm on irc only because I also just got a Real Job (tm)
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rhiaro You may know me from such specs as Social Web Protocols
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sandro https://www.w3.org/TR/social-web-protocols/
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Loqi [Amy Guy] Social Web Protocols
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ajordan https://w3c.github.io/social-web-protocols
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aaronpk cwebber2: for those who don't know, Social Web Protocols is a meta document describing how all of these specs work together
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sandro :-)
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rhiaro thanks gang
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cwebber2 https://www.w3.org/wiki/SocialCG/2017-06-14
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ajordan sandro: jinx
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ajordan !
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aaronpk cwebber2: feel free to add things to the agenda
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aaronpk TOPIC: SocialWG Updates
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aaronpk cwebber2: from activitypub, still moving forward on the test suite. there have been more things happening in other parts of the group
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cwebber2 scribenick: aaronpk
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cwebber2 scribenick: cwebber2
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cwebber2 aaronpk: since webmention and micropub are Recs, the only one I'm tracking now is WebSub. We're about to publish a new CR with some updates dealing with response codes. We definitely need more implementation reports, so anyon who's implemented WebSub as a hub / subscriber / anything, please please submit implementation reports
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sandro -> https://www.w3.org/Consortium/Member/List List of W3C Member Organizations
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cwebber2 scribenick: aaronpk
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aaronpk sandro: the vote for extending the WG is still open
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aaronpk ... so if you're involved with any organizations on that list, you can nudge them to weigh in on the vote, open for only 2 more days
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aaronpk TOPIC: content-less topics in websub
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cwebber2 scribenick: cwebber2
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cwebber2 aaronpk: this is an issue in WebSub, it sounds similar to how Mastodon is handling subscription / deliveries, I wanted to hear from the group if anyone knows of someone doing something similar or interested
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aaronpk https://github.com/w3c/websub/issues/110
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Loqi [julien51] #110 Topics
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cwebber2 aaronpk: I'll quickly describe the issue here. here's the issue
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cwebber2 aaronpk: the historical way PuSH evolved is you have a feed and give a place where people can subscribe to real-time updates of that document. it's now moved to evolve to support other update types such as not just xml. this suggests something different where there might not even just be a document at a url. for example if you want to get updates from other updates from the site, you could use the homepage url to request updates even
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cwebber2 if not a feed. sounds similar to how I think mastodon handles all delivery because they want to handle private content there isn't actually a url all posts appear at, there isn't actually an xml feed of all posts, so posts are delivered in the PuSH payload. this seems to be done because it seems to avoid authenticated feeds because you send update in the payload
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jaywink brb back in 10
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cwebber2 aaronpk: so first am I understanding this correctly about how Mastodon does things? and maybe MMN-work can explain how their system does it. and is this a necessary mechanism or are there other ways to solve this?
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ajordan cwebber2++ for scribing
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Loqi cwebber2 has 90 karma
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MMN-work q+ to guess a little bit
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Zakim sees MMN-work on the speaker queue
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aaronpk scribenick: aaronpk
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aaronpk sandro: my "uninformed" opinion is, I don't like this. it's best practice on the web to have every URL return some content. so any time you would make up a "virtual" URL you should probably handle GET requests on that. If you can't for access control reasons, you can give an access denied error. but in concept people should be able to prove they have access and then read it. so I don't see a reason to
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aaronpk have URLs that 404 that are still a topic URL
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cwebber2 ack MMN-work
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Zakim MMN-work, you wanted to guess a little bit
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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aaronpk MMN-work: as far as i know, mastodon delivers private posts only in the payload and they don't have an accessible URL for that payload, so each notice doesn't resolve to a URL. what you subscribe to, the topic, is still a user account's atom feed, which just doesn't have private posts listed in there.
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aaronpk ... The current model is they have the topic you subscribe to which isn't an empty meta URL, it just doesn't have the private posts in it.
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cwebber2 q?
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geppy is sorry (wasn't paying attention to the clock)
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MMN-work q+ to talk about meta URLs
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Zakim sees MMN-work on the speaker queue
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MMN-work q- what sandro said
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Zakim MMN-work, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
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aaronpk sandro: at some point in the future if there were authentication, then someone with authenticated access would see the private posts. it's not the way i prefer to do authenticated resources but it does work.
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aaronpk TOPIC: introductions again
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aaronpk geppy: i'm working on an open annotation social site using activitypub
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aaronpk q?
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aaronpk queue=
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bigbluehat aaronpk: ❤️
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cwebber2 q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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aaronpk cwebber2: what are people working on specifically regarding the groups specs
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bigbluehat oh... aaronpk is scribbing ;-P geppy ❤️ :D
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sandro specifically, in SOLID we used the principle that each user has all-or-nothing access to each resource, instead of each user getting different views. But in the case where the resource is an aggregate, like a feed, it's more comnpled
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sandro q+
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Zakim sees sandro on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 ack sandro
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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geppy hihi bigbluehat!
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aaronpk sandro: i went ahead and created a mastodon instance w3c.social, i officially got permission this morning to run it
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bigbluehat wishing I'd dialed in now... ;-P
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cwebber2 bigbluehat: you still can!
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ajordan trolololol "I got forgiveness this morning for infringing on W3C trademark"
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cwebber2 https://www.w3.org/wiki/SocialCG/2017-06-14
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aaronpk ... there's more setup to do but you can sign in now
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bigbluehat on it
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aaronpk ... i want to try integrating with github and twitter, but people are free to play with it as well
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cwebber2 q+
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Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 ack cwebber
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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bigbluehat way to noisy here for me to contrib...but I'll listen in for a bit
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geppy would be interested in that (I don't know who the reps are, to tell people)
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aaronpk cwebber2: question for sandro, if we know someone at an organization, is there a list of representatives at organizations so we know where to point people to within their organiztaion?
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aaronpk sandro: there is a list, but it's access controlled
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sandro https://www.w3.org/Member/ACList
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geppy thanks, sandro!
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aaronpk ... if they can read it they can tell who their representative is. otherwise they can email me.
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cwebber2 q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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sandro amused at the sound of his own voice with his cold today :-)
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cwebber2 scribenick: cwebber2
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bigbluehat hrm...not setup for mumble...
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sandro using android mumble, pretty painless
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ben_thatmustbeme there was some talk about timing of it just this morning
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cwebber2 aaronpk: I think the last thing I've been working on is private webmentions, that's an attempt to verify webmentions for people that have access control. I guess that gets more interesting when you want to send webmentions from a private post. there's a private webmention draft spec written up, but we're still having conversations about what's the best approach. the thing I'm struggling with is do we try to solve proper server to
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cwebber2 server oauth using urls as identities or do we take the shortcut of per-post permissions specifically. I'm interested in solving it if we have more poeple to bounce things off of
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ben_thatmustbeme https://indieweb.org/Private-Webmention
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cwebber2 sandro: what's the best place online to see where this discussion's happening?
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ben_thatmustbeme #indieweb-dev on freenode
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cwebber2 aaronpk: I think most is happening on the indieweb dev channel
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cwebber2 ... with parts on wiki pages linked
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cwebber2 ... you'll notice a whole issues section on that page, which is part of the discussion on what's happening
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cwebber2 scribenick: aaronpk
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aaronpk cwebber2: if you don't have something in particular you want to share, that's fine
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aaronpk cwebber2: i've been working on the activitypub test suite which i probably made more complicated than necessary. the client-to-server stuff is nearly complete. the big gap that's left is still the auth side of things.
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ben_thatmustbeme currently working on rebuilding my entire webside in laravel , so going through all the micropub.rocks tests and have to rebuild my webmentions as well, so I will revisit it all soon. https://github.com/Inklings-io/splatter
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Loqi [Inklings-io] splatter
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aaronpk ... at the moment, we've made it so you paste in an actor URL and bearer token. it will get a little trickier on the server-to-server side
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ben_thatmustbeme also have been working on a super simple php websub hub, but its really just alpha at this poing
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aaronpk ... I want to explore a signatures based approach which is a little controversial but i think is the ideal path forward
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ben_thatmustbeme s/poing/spoint/
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jaywink I started working on ActivityPub for my Python federation library (which currently handles DIaspora), but didn't get very far partly due to time issues but partly as I'm not sure how to handle things. Kinda waiting on Mastodon to show an example ;)
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aaronpk MMN-work: i'll work on the websub.rocks tests
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aaronpk MMN-work awesome! the implementation report instructions are on the home page of websub.rocks
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bigbluehat sorry folks...headphones are on the fritz...
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geppy q+ to ask aaronpk if he still might want help with the AP test suite
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Zakim sees geppy on the speaker queue
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MMN-work aaronpk: Yeah, I just need to sit down and not get distracted for a while .)
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tsyesika I don't have anything to discuss this week btw :)
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aaronpk sandro: i'm interested in algorithmic feeds, not from the silo-make-money perspective, but as a user there is too much to follow so i want to hav ea bot to help pick out stuff to boost those. i'd be interested in any ideas people have around that.
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aaronpk ... last week i was in a meeting of the credibility schema working group, a broad range of people including journalists, trying to figure out how to deal with fake news by annotations. somewhere in the pipeline of content being created and displayed to users via google/facebook/twitter, it'd be nice if there was a way to have annotations to help the system know whether things are credible
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ben_thatmustbeme I also published an update of JF2 this week, which now includes JF2 Feed, which is a profile of JF2 that is incredibly close to JSONFeed, but is directly parsable from MF2
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aaronpk ... this group of people came together after misinfocon
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ben_thatmustbeme https://www.w3.org/TR/jf2/
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Loqi [Benjamin Roberts] JF2 Post Serialization Format
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ben_thatmustbeme *gasp* ending early?!
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cwebber2 q?
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Zakim sees geppy on the speaker queue
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MMN-work I don
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MMN-work 't mind ending early .)
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cwebber2 ack geppy
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Zakim geppy, you wanted to ask aaronpk if he still might want help with the AP test suite
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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aaronpk cwebber2: you probably want to ask me since i'm working on the test suite :)
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MMN-work geppy: aaronpk was the one scribing cwebber ;)
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aaronpk ... the big challenge is it's a gigantic pile of scheme code to learn, but i can point you to where to start
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cwebber2 q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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aaronpk cwebber2: want to talk after this meeting?
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aaronpk geppy: yes!
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MMN-work +1
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geppy +1
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ajordan +1
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tsyesika +1
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sandro +1 good day to end early, ttyl
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aaronpk cwebber2: i see nobody on the queue, so looks like we can end early
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MMN-work cwebber2++ for chairing
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Loqi cwebber2 has 91 karma
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aaronpk cwebber2: class dismissed. thanks for showing up and enjoy the extra 20 minutes of your day
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aaronpk trackbot, end meeting
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trackbot is ending a teleconference.
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trackbot Zakim, list attendees
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Zakim As of this point the attendees have been ben_thatmustbeme, ajordan, MMN-work, aaronpk, sandro, tsyesika, cwebber, jaywink
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ajordan cwebber2++ for chairing
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MMN-work aaronpk++ for scribing!
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Loqi aaronpk has 91 karma in this channel (1349 overall)
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trackbot RRSAgent, please draft minutes
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RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/06/14-social-minutes.html trackbot
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cwebber2 aaronpk++ for scribing :)
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Loqi aaronpk has 92 karma in this channel (1350 overall)
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trackbot RRSAgent, bye
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RRSAgent I see no action items
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ajordan aaronpk++ for scribing!
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Loqi slow down!
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MMN-work Loqi++ for chillin'
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aaronpk haha i gotta make karma allowances for the meeting hours
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Loqi rofl
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cwebber2 https://gitlab.com/dustyweb/pubstrate
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MMN-work Bye!
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MMN-work Thanks for today
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cwebber2 https://gitlab.com/dustyweb/pubstrate/blob/master/HACKING.org
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aaronpk minutes: https://www.w3.org/wiki/SocialCG/2017-06-14/minutes
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aaronpk will likely have to miss next week's call
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cwebber2 http://spacemacs.org/
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aaronpk next week's agenda, feel free to add topics! https://www.w3.org/wiki/SocialCG/2017-06-21
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ben_thatmustbeme Zakim, bye
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Zakim leaving. As of this point the attendees have been ben_thatmustbeme, ajordan, MMN-work, aaronpk, sandro, tsyesika, cwebber, jaywink
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: just need to have it look if RRSAgent is in the room, then allow some extra karma
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aaronpk nice
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tantek fumbles for mumble
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sandro thinks tantek is off an hour
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tantek realizes he completely missed the CG call, hopes everyone had a productive fun time!
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sandro yep
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tantek is pleased to report that Post Type Discovery DID get published, after wrestling with BOTH respec and echidna bugs.
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tantek somehow manages to break things that work for everyone else :(
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tantek https://github.com/w3c/respec/issues/1272 if you're curious
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Loqi [tantek] #1272 Respec is errantly subtracting 1 day from previousPublishDate and publishDate
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tantek checks logs
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ben_thatmustbeme wonders if its two bugs that actually work in tandem with everything else, respec subtracts a day, and echnida expects it to be a day behind, lol
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tantek that sounds like time laundering which is expressly forbidden by the second revision of the temporal prime directive.
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saranix sandro: "a broad range of people including journalists, trying to figure out how to deal with fake news by annotations. somewhere in the pipeline of content being created and displayed to users via google/facebook/twitter" -- my solution revolves around data ownership, and social trust...
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saranix ... annotations via web of trust. I'm in the process of integrating w3c annotations (it didn't exist yet when I first designed my system), but it actually overlays differently than annotations (trust is a whole separate semantic)
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saranix ... I don't yet have a commercial product but hopefully soon
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sandro saranix, very cool
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sandro saranix, there's not a lot public from the group yet, I hope soon
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cwebber2 sandro: I would think that as for trust, a signature chain would help too
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saranix sandro: I'd be very interested to hear what others are doing in the space... not that I have time to spread myself thinner
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sandro saranix, details here: https://misinfocon.com/an-update-from-the-san-francisco-credibility-working-group-cb102d21ffe
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sandro cwebber2, for kinds of use cases I see, I don't see any need for that. Signatures are only useful if the original site no longer has the content, and only sometimes then.
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sandro (or you're in some weird semi-offline state)
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saranix "So one important next step for the June working group meeting is get a clearer sense of what potential implementers want (both providers and consumers)" <-- very interested in this outcome
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cwebber2 saranix: oh, they're already looking at the VCWG's work
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cwebber2 oops
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cwebber2 sandro:
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cwebber2 writing a streams-based api for traversing AS2 collections... kind of a fun exercise
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