#social 2017-06-14

2017-06-14 UTC
tantek joined the channel
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tantek
after wrestling with respec (which is screwing up dates, generating a date-1 for "previous version" and "this veresion" links) which required manual post-fixing, and specberus, and echidna, new WD of PTD is published: https://www.w3.org/TR/2017/WD-post-type-discovery-20170614/
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Loqi
[Tantek Çelik] Post Type Discovery
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tantek
checks logs
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@hvdsomp
Link to @w3c ActivityPub Implementation Report is dysfunctional. https://activitypub.rocks seems dead in the water… https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/
(twitter.com/_/status/874954972982632448)
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@hvdsomp
Wish I had found this by @rhiaro sooner: @w3c Social Web Protocols. Explains relations between various protocols https://www.w3.org/TR/social-web-protocols/
(twitter.com/_/status/874959919841243136)
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jaywink
missing some well used ones though, I guess it only includes ones which have clear specs, which makes some sense :D
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jaywink
hmmm that document makes some assumptions about AP that iMHO are not in the spec
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jaywink
"The receiver MUST verify the notification by fetching its source from the origin server." and "All notification POST requests are authenticated" are not there in such strictness AFAICR
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jaywink
or at all except mentioned as examples of how could be done
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rhiaro
hey jaywink, if you find errors or oversights in SWP please raise issues
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rhiaro
thanks for reading!
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rhiaro
it's possible it's not completely caught up with updates to the specs
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jaywink
I'm not sure what it *should* say though ;)
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rhiaro
That's okay, we can figure that out. Just flagging that something doesn't look right is useful!
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rhiaro
We all have generally too much to do in here I think, so the more eyes on these kinds of things the better
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cwebber2
looks like the activitypub.rocks certbot thing didn't auto-renew
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cwebber2
jaywink: rhiaro: gonna join us maye? :)
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ajordan
waves back
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sandro
waves, hi tsyesika, long time
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sandro
trackbot, start meeting
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trackbot
is preparing a teleconference.
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trackbot
RRSAgent, make logs public
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RRSAgent
I have made the request, trackbot
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trackbot
Zakim, this will be SOCL
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Zakim
ok, trackbot
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trackbot
Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
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trackbot
Date: 14 June 2017
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sandro
chair: cwebber2
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sandro
RRSAgent, pointer?
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sandro
RRSAgent, make records public
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RRSAgent
I have made the request, sandro
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rhiaro
waves, irc only
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rhiaro
hi tsyesika!
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MMN-work
waves, irc only here too
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ben_thatmustbeme
i am working at this time so i'll be listening in and only talk if needed
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ben_thatmustbeme
MMN-work, i recognize that song
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aaronpk
scribenick: aaronpk
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aaronpk
cwebber2: we have a couple new people today
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MMN-work
ben: They just discussed which song it was, some old one.
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ajordan
present+
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MMN-work
present+
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aaronpk
present+
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sandro
thinks we should all introduce ourselve, for th new people
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sandro
present+
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tsyesika
present+
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cwebber2
present+
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ben_thatmustbeme
who are the new people?
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cwebber2
scribenick: cwebber2
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cwebber2
aaronpk: I'm co-chair of this group with cwebber2 and editor of a couple of specs in the Working Group
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aaronpk
scribenick: aaronpk
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aaronpk
ajordan: I usually go by AJ. I maintain pump.io, I started maintaining pump.io by accident. I'm in the working group and have done some work on activitypub
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ben_thatmustbeme
I'll do it on IRC
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ben_thatmustbeme
go ahead and i can write it up
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aaronpk
cwebber2: i'm chris webber also co-chair of this group. I'm co-maintainer of mediagoblin which is implementing activitypub
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MMN-work
is GNU social maintainer and interested in ActivityPub as a sort of evolution from OStatus which is what is used for federation (including WebSub, which should pass all tests as the implementation is PuSH v0.4 - we've renamed it recently in the source code).
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MMN-work
prepared a statement
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jaywink
present+
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cwebber2
jaywink, are you irc only?
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aaronpk
MMN-work: GNU social maintainer and interested in ActivityPub as a sort of evolution from OStatus which is what is used for federation (including WebSub, which should pass all tests as the implementation is PuSH v0.4 - we've renamed it recently in the source code).
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aaronpk
copied from /me because /me things don't get included in minutes
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ajordan
MMN-work: did you submit an implementation report? ;)
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jaywink
cwebber2: yes
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cwebber2
jaywink, would you like to re-introduce yourself? we have a couple new people
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ben_thatmustbeme
Hi, Ben Roberts (ben.thatmustbe.me), Invited Expert in the Working Group, dev in the IndieWeb, Editor of JF2, and have a bunch of individual projects going
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MMN-work
ajordan: No, I've only tested the subscription so far. And this whole not-customer-with-github-etc .)
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MMN-work
ajordan: Tested with websub.rocks that is.
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ajordan
MMN-work: gotcha
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cwebber2
rhiaro, would you like to introduce yourself?
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aaronpk
sandro: i'm sandro hawke, on the w3c staff. staff don't really participate in community groups. i'm here because i really believe in decentralization and i think this microblogging approach is a good start but really i want to decentralize everything
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sandro
s/really/normally/
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aaronpk
tsyesika: I implemented federation on GNU MediaGoblin, and am coeditor on activitypub but have largely been dormant in the WG over the last year but hopefully i can participate in the group again as well as the community group
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jaywink
hi all (introduction). I work on my own project Socialhome mostly, which federates using the Diaspora protocol. SocialWG invited expert (though not super active), interested in implementing ActivityPub when the time is right. Generally interested in federated social web :)
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cwebber2
thanks jaywink
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rhiaro
I'm rhiaro, offline Amy Guy, SWWG staff contact among other things. I'm on irc only because I also just got a Real Job (tm)
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rhiaro
You may know me from such specs as Social Web Protocols
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Loqi
[Amy Guy] Social Web Protocols
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aaronpk
cwebber2: for those who don't know, Social Web Protocols is a meta document describing how all of these specs work together
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rhiaro
thanks gang
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ajordan
sandro: jinx
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aaronpk
cwebber2: feel free to add things to the agenda
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aaronpk
TOPIC: SocialWG Updates
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aaronpk
cwebber2: from activitypub, still moving forward on the test suite. there have been more things happening in other parts of the group
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cwebber2
scribenick: aaronpk
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cwebber2
scribenick: cwebber2
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cwebber2
aaronpk: since webmention and micropub are Recs, the only one I'm tracking now is WebSub. We're about to publish a new CR with some updates dealing with response codes. We definitely need more implementation reports, so anyon who's implemented WebSub as a hub / subscriber / anything, please please submit implementation reports
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sandro
-> https://www.w3.org/Consortium/Member/List List of W3C Member Organizations
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cwebber2
scribenick: aaronpk
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aaronpk
sandro: the vote for extending the WG is still open
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aaronpk
... so if you're involved with any organizations on that list, you can nudge them to weigh in on the vote, open for only 2 more days
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aaronpk
TOPIC: content-less topics in websub
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cwebber2
scribenick: cwebber2
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cwebber2
aaronpk: this is an issue in WebSub, it sounds similar to how Mastodon is handling subscription / deliveries, I wanted to hear from the group if anyone knows of someone doing something similar or interested
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Loqi
[julien51] #110 Topics
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cwebber2
aaronpk: I'll quickly describe the issue here. here's the issue
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cwebber2
aaronpk: the historical way PuSH evolved is you have a feed and give a place where people can subscribe to real-time updates of that document. it's now moved to evolve to support other update types such as not just xml. this suggests something different where there might not even just be a document at a url. for example if you want to get updates from other updates from the site, you could use the homepage url to request updates even
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cwebber2
if not a feed. sounds similar to how I think mastodon handles all delivery because they want to handle private content there isn't actually a url all posts appear at, there isn't actually an xml feed of all posts, so posts are delivered in the PuSH payload. this seems to be done because it seems to avoid authenticated feeds because you send update in the payload
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jaywink
brb back in 10
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cwebber2
aaronpk: so first am I understanding this correctly about how Mastodon does things? and maybe MMN-work can explain how their system does it. and is this a necessary mechanism or are there other ways to solve this?
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ajordan
cwebber2++ for scribing
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Loqi
cwebber2 has 90 karma
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MMN-work
q+ to guess a little bit
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Zakim
sees MMN-work on the speaker queue
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aaronpk
scribenick: aaronpk
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aaronpk
sandro: my "uninformed" opinion is, I don't like this. it's best practice on the web to have every URL return some content. so any time you would make up a "virtual" URL you should probably handle GET requests on that. If you can't for access control reasons, you can give an access denied error. but in concept people should be able to prove they have access and then read it. so I don't see a reason to
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aaronpk
have URLs that 404 that are still a topic URL
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cwebber2
ack MMN-work
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Zakim
MMN-work, you wanted to guess a little bit
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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aaronpk
MMN-work: as far as i know, mastodon delivers private posts only in the payload and they don't have an accessible URL for that payload, so each notice doesn't resolve to a URL. what you subscribe to, the topic, is still a user account's atom feed, which just doesn't have private posts listed in there.
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aaronpk
... The current model is they have the topic you subscribe to which isn't an empty meta URL, it just doesn't have the private posts in it.
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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geppy
is sorry (wasn't paying attention to the clock)
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MMN-work
q+ to talk about meta URLs
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Zakim
sees MMN-work on the speaker queue
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MMN-work
q- what sandro said
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Zakim
MMN-work, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
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aaronpk
sandro: at some point in the future if there were authentication, then someone with authenticated access would see the private posts. it's not the way i prefer to do authenticated resources but it does work.
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aaronpk
TOPIC: introductions again
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aaronpk
geppy: i'm working on an open annotation social site using activitypub
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Zakim
sees MMN-work on the speaker queue
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aaronpk
queue=
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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bigbluehat
aaronpk: ❤️
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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aaronpk
cwebber2: what are people working on specifically regarding the groups specs
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bigbluehat
oh... aaronpk is scribbing ;-P geppy ❤️ :D
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sandro
specifically, in SOLID we used the principle that each user has all-or-nothing access to each resource, instead of each user getting different views. But in the case where the resource is an aggregate, like a feed, it's more comnpled
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Zakim
sees sandro on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
ack sandro
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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geppy
hihi bigbluehat!
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aaronpk
sandro: i went ahead and created a mastodon instance w3c.social, i officially got permission this morning to run it
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bigbluehat
wishing I'd dialed in now... ;-P
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cwebber2
bigbluehat: you still can!
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ajordan
trolololol "I got forgiveness this morning for infringing on W3C trademark"
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aaronpk
... there's more setup to do but you can sign in now
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aaronpk
... i want to try integrating with github and twitter, but people are free to play with it as well
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Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
ack cwebber
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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bigbluehat
way to noisy here for me to contrib...but I'll listen in for a bit
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geppy
would be interested in that (I don't know who the reps are, to tell people)
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aaronpk
cwebber2: question for sandro, if we know someone at an organization, is there a list of representatives at organizations so we know where to point people to within their organiztaion?
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aaronpk
sandro: there is a list, but it's access controlled
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geppy
thanks, sandro!
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aaronpk
... if they can read it they can tell who their representative is. otherwise they can email me.
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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sandro
amused at the sound of his own voice with his cold today :-)
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cwebber2
scribenick: cwebber2
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bigbluehat
hrm...not setup for mumble...
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sandro
using android mumble, pretty painless
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ben_thatmustbeme
there was some talk about timing of it just this morning
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cwebber2
aaronpk: I think the last thing I've been working on is private webmentions, that's an attempt to verify webmentions for people that have access control. I guess that gets more interesting when you want to send webmentions from a private post. there's a private webmention draft spec written up, but we're still having conversations about what's the best approach. the thing I'm struggling with is do we try to solve proper server to
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cwebber2
server oauth using urls as identities or do we take the shortcut of per-post permissions specifically. I'm interested in solving it if we have more poeple to bounce things off of
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cwebber2
sandro: what's the best place online to see where this discussion's happening?
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ben_thatmustbeme
#indieweb-dev on freenode
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cwebber2
aaronpk: I think most is happening on the indieweb dev channel
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cwebber2
... with parts on wiki pages linked
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cwebber2
... you'll notice a whole issues section on that page, which is part of the discussion on what's happening
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cwebber2
scribenick: aaronpk
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aaronpk
cwebber2: if you don't have something in particular you want to share, that's fine
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aaronpk
cwebber2: i've been working on the activitypub test suite which i probably made more complicated than necessary. the client-to-server stuff is nearly complete. the big gap that's left is still the auth side of things.
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ben_thatmustbeme
currently working on rebuilding my entire webside in laravel , so going through all the micropub.rocks tests and have to rebuild my webmentions as well, so I will revisit it all soon. https://github.com/Inklings-io/splatter
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Loqi
[Inklings-io] splatter
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aaronpk
... at the moment, we've made it so you paste in an actor URL and bearer token. it will get a little trickier on the server-to-server side
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ben_thatmustbeme
also have been working on a super simple php websub hub, but its really just alpha at this poing
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aaronpk
... I want to explore a signatures based approach which is a little controversial but i think is the ideal path forward
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ben_thatmustbeme
s/poing/spoint/
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jaywink
I started working on ActivityPub for my Python federation library (which currently handles DIaspora), but didn't get very far partly due to time issues but partly as I'm not sure how to handle things. Kinda waiting on Mastodon to show an example ;)
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aaronpk
MMN-work: i'll work on the websub.rocks tests
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aaronpk
MMN-work awesome! the implementation report instructions are on the home page of websub.rocks
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bigbluehat
sorry folks...headphones are on the fritz...
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geppy
q+ to ask aaronpk if he still might want help with the AP test suite
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Zakim
sees geppy on the speaker queue
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MMN-work
aaronpk: Yeah, I just need to sit down and not get distracted for a while .)
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tsyesika
I don't have anything to discuss this week btw :)
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aaronpk
sandro: i'm interested in algorithmic feeds, not from the silo-make-money perspective, but as a user there is too much to follow so i want to hav ea bot to help pick out stuff to boost those. i'd be interested in any ideas people have around that.
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aaronpk
... last week i was in a meeting of the credibility schema working group, a broad range of people including journalists, trying to figure out how to deal with fake news by annotations. somewhere in the pipeline of content being created and displayed to users via google/facebook/twitter, it'd be nice if there was a way to have annotations to help the system know whether things are credible
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ben_thatmustbeme
I also published an update of JF2 this week, which now includes JF2 Feed, which is a profile of JF2 that is incredibly close to JSONFeed, but is directly parsable from MF2
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aaronpk
... this group of people came together after misinfocon
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Loqi
[Benjamin Roberts] JF2 Post Serialization Format
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ben_thatmustbeme
*gasp* ending early?!
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Zakim
sees geppy on the speaker queue
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MMN-work
I don
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MMN-work
't mind ending early .)
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cwebber2
ack geppy
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Zakim
geppy, you wanted to ask aaronpk if he still might want help with the AP test suite
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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aaronpk
cwebber2: you probably want to ask me since i'm working on the test suite :)
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MMN-work
geppy: aaronpk was the one scribing cwebber ;)
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aaronpk
... the big challenge is it's a gigantic pile of scheme code to learn, but i can point you to where to start
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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aaronpk
cwebber2: want to talk after this meeting?
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aaronpk
geppy: yes!
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MMN-work
+1
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geppy
+1
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sandro
+1 good day to end early, ttyl
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aaronpk
cwebber2: i see nobody on the queue, so looks like we can end early
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MMN-work
cwebber2++ for chairing
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Loqi
cwebber2 has 91 karma
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aaronpk
cwebber2: class dismissed. thanks for showing up and enjoy the extra 20 minutes of your day
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aaronpk
trackbot, end meeting
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trackbot
is ending a teleconference.
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trackbot
Zakim, list attendees
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Zakim
As of this point the attendees have been ben_thatmustbeme, ajordan, MMN-work, aaronpk, sandro, tsyesika, cwebber, jaywink
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ajordan
cwebber2++ for chairing
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MMN-work
aaronpk++ for scribing!
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Loqi
aaronpk has 91 karma in this channel (1349 overall)
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trackbot
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
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RRSAgent
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/06/14-social-minutes.html trackbot
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cwebber2
aaronpk++ for scribing :)
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Loqi
aaronpk has 92 karma in this channel (1350 overall)
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trackbot
RRSAgent, bye
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RRSAgent
I see no action items
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ajordan
aaronpk++ for scribing!
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Loqi
slow down!
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MMN-work
Loqi++ for chillin'
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aaronpk
haha i gotta make karma allowances for the meeting hours
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Loqi
rofl
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MMN-work
Bye!
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MMN-work
Thanks for today
tantek joined the channel
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aaronpk
will likely have to miss next week's call
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aaronpk
next week's agenda, feel free to add topics! https://www.w3.org/wiki/SocialCG/2017-06-21
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Zakim
leaving. As of this point the attendees have been ben_thatmustbeme, ajordan, MMN-work, aaronpk, sandro, tsyesika, cwebber, jaywink
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ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk: just need to have it look if RRSAgent is in the room, then allow some extra karma
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tantek
fumbles for mumble
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sandro
thinks tantek is off an hour
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tantek
realizes he completely missed the CG call, hopes everyone had a productive fun time!
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tantek
is pleased to report that Post Type Discovery DID get published, after wrestling with BOTH respec and echidna bugs.
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tantek
somehow manages to break things that work for everyone else :(
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Loqi
[tantek] #1272 Respec is errantly subtracting 1 day from previousPublishDate and publishDate
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tantek
checks logs
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ben_thatmustbeme
wonders if its two bugs that actually work in tandem with everything else, respec subtracts a day, and echnida expects it to be a day behind, lol
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tantek
that sounds like time laundering which is expressly forbidden by the second revision of the temporal prime directive.
KevinMarks_ and geppy joined the channel
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saranix
sandro: "a broad range of people including journalists, trying to figure out how to deal with fake news by annotations. somewhere in the pipeline of content being created and displayed to users via google/facebook/twitter" -- my solution revolves around data ownership, and social trust...
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saranix
... annotations via web of trust. I'm in the process of integrating w3c annotations (it didn't exist yet when I first designed my system), but it actually overlays differently than annotations (trust is a whole separate semantic)
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saranix
... I don't yet have a commercial product but hopefully soon
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sandro
saranix, very cool
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sandro
saranix, there's not a lot public from the group yet, I hope soon
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cwebber2
sandro: I would think that as for trust, a signature chain would help too
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saranix
sandro: I'd be very interested to hear what others are doing in the space... not that I have time to spread myself thinner
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sandro
cwebber2, for kinds of use cases I see, I don't see any need for that. Signatures are only useful if the original site no longer has the content, and only sometimes then.
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sandro
(or you're in some weird semi-offline state)
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saranix
"So one important next step for the June working group meeting is get a clearer sense of what potential implementers want (both providers and consumers)" <-- very interested in this outcome
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cwebber2
saranix: oh, they're already looking at the VCWG's work
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cwebber2
sandro:
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cwebber2
writing a streams-based api for traversing AS2 collections... kind of a fun exercise
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