#social 2017-11-08
2017-11-08 UTC
timbl, tantek, rowan, timbl_, cdchapman, xmpp-social, _xmpp-social, KjetilK_, KjetilK and rowan_ joined the channel
# 
nightpool cwebber2: when the spec says "To do this, the server MUST target and deliver to the values of to, bto, cc, bcc, and/or audience if and only if all of the following are true", is that a double implication?
# nightpool That is, if the following are true is the server REQUIRED to deliver in that way? that seems to contradict the paragraph after the list, which says the server MAY filter for other reasons.
# nightpool If not, what is the point of saying "if and only if
# nightpool " there, rather then "only if" which is just a straightforward single implication?
cdchapman joined the channel
# nightpool change "if and only if" to "only if"
# nightpool Unless I'm misunderstaanding, and all compliant activitypub servers *should* forward things.
# nightpool i think in general i'm having a hard time trying to understand the exact requirements of that section and how it fits into what mastodon is doing
# nightpool if I get an activity that's 'cc'd to me, am I required to forward it to the person it's 'to'd to?
# nightpool I think a careful reading of that spec requires that I do
# nightpool oops, tag for cwebber2 (sorry, IRC is hard for me since I don't get notifications ^.^)
# nightpool we have two behaviors:
# nightpool - if user B replies to a post by user A, and it's to/cc PUBLIC, it gets forwarded to user A's followers
# nightpool er, I thought there might have been another relevant behavior, but I guess there's not
# nightpool This kind of fits the spec, but not really.
# nightpool "Server: Fetching the inbox
# nightpool " probably shouldn't be a common server test?
cdchapman joined the channel
# nightpool cwebber2: how do I turn a impl report link into a MD implementation report?
tantek joined the channel
tantek, npdoty_ and flackr joined the channel
# npdoty_ trackbot, start meeting
RRSAgent joined the channel
# 
RRSAgent logging to https://www.w3.org/2017/11/08-social-irc
# npdoty_ Meeting: Decentralized Social Networking & Games
# npdoty_ chair: cwebber2
# npdoty_ [introductions]
rowan joined the channel
# npdoty_ https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/
# npdoty_ cwebber2: actors can send messages to the rest of the world and an inbox to receive messages from outside
# npdoty_ ... activities can include notes, likes, shares, etc.
# npdoty_ ... not too far away from the old-school idea of MUDs etc. where actors take actions (pick up book, etc.)
# npdoty_ ... have more interactive spaces, a cyberpunk future where you participate with objects
# npdoty scribenick: npdoty
tantek joined the channel
# npdoty yay octodon.social!
# npdoty cwebber2: demonstration of mastodon, two different social network users on two different servers
# npdoty christopher_allen: what are the possibilities for "porting" an account to another server?
# npdoty nolan: only informal solutions like changing their "names" to indicate moved accounts
# npdoty cwebber2: Social Web Incubator Community Group is covering that topic
# npdoty cwebber2: private messages aren't end-to-end encrypted, just communicated between servers (transport-encrypted) and some basic trust in the administration
# npdoty ... could use DIDs as the identifier instead of just account URLs
# npdoty ... server-to-server side effects are specified, but that relies on server access to the contents of ActivityPub messages
# npdoty nolan: e2e scenario doesn't seem like the most high-value use case
# npdoty ... relative to account export/import features
# npdoty cwebber2: but is still raised as a privacy issue ("advisory privacy")
# npdoty npdoty: one way that people have tried is to use Keybase where you sign a statement that proves that you own multiple accounts
# npdoty ... which handles both key discovery and proof of connection of two accounts
# npdoty is there transparency for that?
# npdoty drummond: decentralized identifiers also allow you to specify those claims, including moving between accounts
# npdoty nolan: concern about usability, given that the competition is a streamlined centralized social networking service
# npdoty cwebber2: what would the user interface look like?
# npdoty drummond: have seen lots of demos for services like Signal where the UI really is getting to the point of being comfortable
# npdoty cwebber2: social networking sites can make it much easier to actually build a web of trust
# npdoty cwebber2: historically when people talked about blockchains for everything! zooko emphasized the utility of an entrypoint to cryptographic systems that have a human-usable experience
# npdoty https://ring.cx/
# npdoty a social network can introduce people into a cryptographically secure system
# npdoty contrasting to the keysigning party stereotype :)
# npdoty topic: games
# npdoty christopher: cross-game chatting or other interactions
# npdoty [lots of experience with MUDs and MOOs, cwebber2 gives a demo]
# npdoty games can include both chat and interaction with a world that you walk around
# npdoty christopher: objects can be more complicated, respond to different kinds of verbs, etc.
# npdoty cwebber2: these games were typically community programmable, users could build objects that would interact
# npdoty nolan: in a federated system, how would you prevent cheating?
# npdoty Lessons from Habitat, and a 1980s game Habitat, that had collaborative interactions, that used consent/capabilities
# npdoty Second Life has similar techniques
# npdoty could use VRML as well
# npdoty smart contracts to enable secure capabilities
rowan joined the channel
# npdoty sending messages from actor to actor about your position, etc.
# npdoty federated environments, could involve exchange of currencies between them
# npdoty how much of this is possible to implement with ActivityPub today?
# npdoty cwebber2: we could have customized software that had existing Mastodon-style feeds in some columns and have another column that is the game, with updates to the game state
# npdoty ... the effort to build that could be a compelling use case for adoption of federated social networking
# npdoty [cryptocurrency conversation]
# npdoty next steps?
# npdoty cwebber2: interest in trying out game development next year
# npdoty webrtc and data channel for peer-to-peer connections
# npdoty [adjourned]
# npdoty rrsagent, draft minutes
# RRSAgent I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2017/11/08-social-minutes.html npdoty
rowan joined the channel