#social 2017-11-07
2017-11-07 UTC
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# 
npdoty scribenick: npdoty
# npdoty trackbot, start meeting
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# 
RRSAgent logging to https://www.w3.org/2017/11/07-social-irc
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# npdoty scribenick: npdoty
# npdoty present+
# npdoty zakim, agenda?
# npdoty agenda+ transition to CG
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# npdoty agenda+ abuse and harassment
# npdoty present+ annbass
# npdoty Zakim, take up agendum 1
# npdoty tantek: the WG will close at the end of the year, not many more teleconferences
# npdoty ... no furhter f2f meetings scheduled
# npdoty ... need to transition any ongoing work items that may last beyond the end of the year: errata/revised recommendations, extensions (already in CG to some extent),
# npdoty ... CG scope is broader, so work that was out-of-scope for WG could be raised here
# npdoty cwebber2: already in CG: implementation discussion
# npdoty ... handle new extensions of vocabulary
# npdoty ... wiki page has staged extensions, that can be voted into more official status
# npdoty ... `sensitive` flag for Mastodon, and Hashtag object type
# npdoty fine to scribe for now, but could maybe use help later
# npdoty tantek: normative AS2 sets a vocabulary; open-ended vocabulary model of Linked Data; microformats vocabulary documented in wiki pages
# npdoty present+ hadleybeeman
# npdoty "Social Web Protocols" should terminate as a Note prior to closing the WG
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# npdoty snarfed: Granary has a test suite with informal mappings
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# snarfed https://github.com/snarfed/granary converts between most social data formats - microformats2, AS1 and 2, Atom, etc.
# npdoty cwebber2: the extensions and a conversation point for implementations already part of the CG
# npdoty ... not sure what new standards would be in this space
# snarfed demo: https://granary-demo.appspot.com/
# npdoty tantek: work in progress, like Vouch for WebMention
# npdoty cwebber2: a community-run anti-spam service called @@@
# npdoty tantek: could start with a list of documents in progress that could be CG reports
# 
cwebber2 documents from https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/
# npdoty ... do we want to continue the Social Web Protocols document, for example?
# npdoty tantek: contributors can see what the current deliverables are that they might be able to work on
# npdoty npdoty: CG can still be a place for general discussion on implementation and problems, but also have specific document deliverables
# npdoty annbass: besides maintaining and errata, do any of the existing documents have big gaps that need to be flushed out?
# npdoty tantek: for each spec, there were issues that were postponed for later versions
# npdoty hadleybeeman: "enthusiastic spectator" -- is this group only in existence for the end of the WG? or is it a separately useful lighter touch entity?
# npdoty present+ torgo
# npdoty cwebber2: major issues to address: harassment, account migration between servers
# npdoty ... still significant work to do, but maybe enough of a concrete output for a dedicated WG
# npdoty tantek: +1
# npdoty annbass: move to a CG, see where the energy is for which work, and then see if there's a new WG needed
# npdoty tantek: combining related smaller groups that are all Social but were specific to a single tech
# npdoty hadleybeeman: relation to Mastodon?
# npdoty cwebber2: yes, Mastodon is a large implementation of ActivityPub
# npdoty [discussion of support and maintenance of StatusNet, GNUSocial, etc.]
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# npdoty snarfed: some projects might not have technical energy to switch to ActivityPub
# npdoty annbass: CG could attract participation from non-members, including Mastodon developers
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# npdoty snarfed: fed.bridgy will bridge OStatus and ActivityPub
# 
@hadleybeeman @agriculios They're growing out of the @SocialWebWG, which is winding up the to-do list in its charter: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg (twitter.com/_/status/927696439576162306)
# npdoty [discussion of using dedicated instances for companies and using Mastodon for support/engagement]
# 
tantek note: https://social.csswg.org/
# npdoty federation allows anyone to set up any instance, but there is also a culture of the existing audience/community
# npdoty [is Gargron actually Satoshi Nakomoto?]
# npdoty npdoty: running separate Mastodon instances, or maintaining slightly different forks, might contribute to interop of ActivityPub, not just Mastodon versions
# npdoty tantek: companies that start their own projects that use the protocols, would make it a peer in the system
# npdoty Zakim, take up agendum 2
# npdoty cwebber2: different approaches, including: federation of blocklists
# npdoty shared blocklists on Twitter have had difficulties, including opening up further attack
# npdoty cwebber2: filtering tools (based on specified words), or spam (bayesian inference) techniques
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# npdoty cwebber2: or Web-of-Trust-style building a network of who you trust and their subsequent relationships
# npdoty hadleybeeman: use cases for what can a victim do, but also interested in community responses / collective action
# npdoty ... what about law enforcement or someone-who-wants-to-help or an authority, and how could they establish evidence, etc.
# npdoty distinguishing between wide-scale surveillance and user features that could help with collaborating with authorities
# hadleybeeman to be clear, I'm not advocating surveillance or any kind of back door here. I'm talking about a different kind of user, who can pull data on (or be asked to help with) a situation where someone may need help.
# hadleybeeman Since there isn't a central authority to work out that one user is harrassing a bunch of people — how do a group of us gather evidence to for an offline authority to help/take action?
# npdoty npdoty: an intrinsic advantage of federation is having different policies for different instances, rather than a single central system that has to have a single policy for everyone
# hadleybeeman @npdoty: Agreed. I'm more thinking of tools rather than policies
# tantek FYI: citations debunking more than not the notion of filter bubbles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filter_bubble#Reactions
# npdoty npdoty: having more granular tools would make bubbles created by very blunt instruments even less likely to be a problem
# npdoty cwebber2: try to prototype a lot of different filtering and blocking approaches, and see how well they actually work out
# npdoty hadleybeeman: +1
# npdoty ... will require regular adaptation/evolution over time
# npdoty ... having granularity available, can make it so that superusers can develop different approaches that various users can try out
# npdoty cwebber2: should try to push more power to the user rather than server or global level
# 
@agriculios @hadleybeeman @SocialWebWG Thank you ? very, very interesting. (twitter.com/_/status/927706640991657984)
# npdoty cwebber2: keeps me up at night that anyone can send something to your ActivityPub inbox
# npdoty tantek: as it was with SMTP
# npdoty HTTP 409 Payment Required
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# npdoty tantek: don't have as much experience with as many users as large social networks and handling abuse in those situations
# npdoty ... and can certainly have protocol designers that are blind to the privileges in place, as in W3C and IETF
# npdoty torgo: there is a community of users who are especially familiar with abuse
# npdoty cwebber2: and we can build on that
# npdoty [discussion of Vouch and "web of trust" used in different ways]
# tantek torgo FYI: https://indieweb.org/Vouch
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# npdoty group interest in dedicating some time to documenting cases and building methods for addressing harassment
# RRSAgent I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2017/11/07-social-minutes.html trackbot
# tantek stub and photo is up at https://www.w3.org/wiki/SocialCG/2017-11-06
# @agriculios @hadleybeeman @SocialWebWG Dropped a quick email, apologies I haven't been in touch. When you're back in Blighty, coffee is on me. (twitter.com/_/status/927713919543758848)
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