#social 2017-11-15

2017-11-15 UTC
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bengo https://activitypub.com
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@rektide I need to re-review Social Web Protocols (https://www.w3.org/TR/social-web-protocols/) with an eye towards whatever specs are closest to the dev-ships general common practical ReST. (twitter.com/_/status/930633013721010176)
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ajordan oh btw cwebber2 I felt like I should share this with you earlier but forgot: https://cloud.strugee.net/index.php/s/jM7Exe9KkUP2fmK
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ajordan ^^^ poem I wrote in the first couple minutes of the WG call, for the class I went to directly after the WG call :'D
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ajordan I'm a terrible student tbh
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puckipedia lol, my instance's view of the entire federation network https://puckipedia.com/_dumpAll (I hacked Kroeg to dump every activity in my sharedInbox into this collection)
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rhiaro quiet mastodon plug in here folks! https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/15/opinion/serbia-facebook-explore-feed.html
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csarven cwebber2: re https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/#create-activity-outbox
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csarven It seems like the object of as:object has to be in the payload. Is a URI permitted as the value of as:object or it must be the complete AS Object
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puckipedia csarven: so what's the use of as:object in a Create being a URI
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puckipedia because obviously it's created already
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csarven puckipedia: Apparenrlt i misunderstood
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cwebber2 csarven: it's best practice for it to be part of the payload for sure
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cwebber2 I mean, you could be "informing" people that it's created but
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cwebber2 there's another reason you'd want to do it too: if you're signing the object, it's useful to know that yes, this specific version was the version being created
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cwebber2 rhiaro: oh nice
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puckipedia cwebber2: is that actually useful information
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cwebber2 puckipedia: which specific version is being created or "just informing it's being created"
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puckipedia which specific version
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csarven cwebber2: What's the outbox at the test suite?
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csarven that I can send test payloads to
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csarven will try https://test.activitypub.rocks/
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cwebber2 csarven: currently the test suite posts to *your* outbox if you're a C2S server, but tests where you're the client ask a bunch of questions instead... having ones that fake an outbox are still on the horizon though
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csarven ETA?
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cwebber2 puckipedia: I'd say it is... say you signed a {type: Create, object: {whole object here}}
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cwebber2 csarven: January probably
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cwebber2 in that case, you actually know what the contents of the object were that were created and you can verify that it's a thing that was said
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cwebber2 if you just sign {type: Create, object: <id>}
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cwebber2 that doesn't say anything about what the contents were
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cwebber2 someone could bait & switch you
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csarven I suppose I'll have to ask you folks to manually check whether ym example payload is okay before submitting a test report?
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cwebber2 csarven: happy to do that
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csarven IIRC the WG ends this year?
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puckipedia cwebber2: "someone could bait & switch you"? so someone sends a Create, then changes the contents?
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cwebber2 yes
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puckipedia ... how about those contents being signed as well
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puckipedia or, how about someone posts a Note containing sensitive content. someone likes that note. does that mean that you can't censor the private content without invalidating the like?
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erincandescent One reason for Create to be a URI is because you created an object on a third party server
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cwebber2 you could sign it separately yes
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erincandescent e.g. you might have an ActivityPub connected bug tracker, which would post {type: Create, object: https://bugs.example.com/issue/2938} to your outbox
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cwebber2 puckipedia: well, if you had a CAS backend it's not a problem, you know the like was for a specific version, *and* you can know there's a new version eventually, but not everyone is going to do that
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puckipedia cwebber2: now imagine that the delete/update happened between the like being signed and the like being delivered
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puckipedia (I still totally think signing every object separately is way more than enough)
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erincandescent But you also don't want to be serving up old versions of objects, e.g. they might have had data redacted intentionally or the object might have been deleted
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cwebber2 that's true
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cwebber2 uh
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cwebber2 it's way too early in the morning for me to be thinking about these things! ;)
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puckipedia it's 15:42 somewhere in the world :P
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cwebber2 :)
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cwebber2 good points anyway, I'm stepping away for shower + breakfast
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csarven How much of the object that's to be Created needs to use AS2 as per AP spec?
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puckipedia effectively? nothing, I think
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puckipedia at least, I am 90% sure that Kroeg could Create an empty object
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puckipedia but I would suggest audience (to/bto/cc/bcc) and type to at least be something that's AS-y
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puckipedia you can even have non-AS2 Activities
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csarven I'm creating an annotation
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csarven I don't think to/bto/cc/bcc are relevant
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puckipedia I use to/cc to determine who can see the object
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csarven There is no constraint on that at the moment
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rhiaro to/bto/cc/bcc are for the client to instruct the server on how to access control the post
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csarven ie. "attention" is to anyone that can access the resource
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rhiaro not sure what the default server behaviour is if that's missing altogether. Probably to make it completely private
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csarven Which URI do you use to indicate "Anyone"?
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rhiaro otherwise you can address to as:Public
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puckipedia csarven: as:Public / Public / https://www.w3.org/ns/activitystreams#Public
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puckipedia rhiaro: mine makes it entirely private, *except* if it's in a collection, then the owner of that collection can view it
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csarven You mean 'to': { 'type': 'Public' } ?
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puckipedia (and I need to check if I do access control if you POST something into a collection)
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puckipedia csarven: "to": "Public"
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csarven That's weird
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puckipedia it's mostly a JSON-LD thingy
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csarven so the range is a class as oppoosed to a thing?
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csarven an instance i Mean
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puckipedia range?
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csarven expected/allowed value for 'to'
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puckipedia just IDs / URIs
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puckipedia it's defined as a fake Collection inside AP
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puckipedia JSON-LD just kinda turns https://www.w3.org/ns/activitystreams#Public into as:Public
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csarven https://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-vocabulary/#dfn-to says as:Object .. and I take it that as:Public is added by AP
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csarven Object|Link
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rhiaro so you can infer that as:Public is an object from that, if you're inferring things
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rhiaro no reason why not
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rhiaro it doesn't say it's not
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rhiaro tis an 'individual'
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rhiaro I think that's the LD terminology for these things
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csarven alright, i can add that i guess
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erincandescent Shame we couldn't have made it an urn
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@kevinmarks #FHIRdevdays17 @GrahameGrieve: Kevin provided a link to Websub https://www.w3.org/TR/websub/ - we should look at it to see how it maps (twitter.com/_/status/930816265576501248)
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xmpp-social [ajordan] erincandescent: why isn't a URL not good enough? Just curious
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csarven erincandescent: why
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erincandescent Because its a non-dereferencable resource
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erincandescent It names a concept not an actual thing
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rhiaro 80% of RDF is concepts not things :p
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rhiaro mutters something about httprange14 and goes for a walk
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erincandescent Most RDF concepts named with URLs are types, though
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rhiaro I mean if we can have http://www.w3.org/2006/time#Wednesday we can have as:Public
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erincandescent Also more so its because its the one https URI which is a special case
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rhiaro maybe special for AP but in the grand scheme of LD it's normal
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csarven URN doesn't mean that it can't be resolved. They are just not required or expected to "globally"
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erincandescent Its more that if it was a special urn (or other uri scheme) then software which foolishly attempted to deliver to it would automatically fall over :p
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rhiaro and as:Public resolves to a description of it (where the description is a link to the bit of the AP spec which describes it)
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xmpp-social [ajordan] *sits back, gets some popcorn and watches the bikeshedding*
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csarven erincandescent: A system shouldn't be foolishly sending stuff to whatever is att the end of as:to. The point there as I understand it is that, if your system acknowledges that particular value, it can deliver to it.
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rhiaro the spec says that a server must try to deliver to things in to
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rhiaro not sure what 'acknowledges that particular value' means
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csarven What does it do with 'to': 'Public' ?
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erincandescent csarven: ActivityPub says to attempt to deliver to objects with https URIs in the audience properties, except for special value as:Public
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rhiaro and even if it did try to deliver, it just sends one post request and nothing else happens. Not the worst thing ever seen in the web.
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rhiaro I mean, I don't think the w3c ns does anything hilarious if you post to it
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rhiaro but should probably find out
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erincandescent Well it'll do a GET request to look up as:Public as an application/ld+json object first :p
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csarven it connects to timbl's pond computer and dispatches a message to every connected computer out there
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rhiaro erincandescent: oh yeah
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erincandescent Which I assume will get the context returned to it
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rhiaro and then it won't find an outbox
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rhiaro and the cycle ends
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rhiaro some wasted effort I guess but hopefully not server-crashingly bad
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erincandescent If you wanted to be crazy you could actually define as:Public in the context :p
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rhiaro as:Public *is* in the context..
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rhiaro that's not crazy
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rhiaro it needs it for expansion
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erincandescent Its defined as an LD term, but not as a LD object
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rhiaro oh okay
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erincandescent @graph [{id: as:Public, type: ???}]
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rhiaro we could rig a w3c server to email anything sent there to everyone we don't like
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csarven In my notifications, as:to points to the article's URL that was annotated
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csarven But i think i'll be using that as part of the Create activity as opposed to the object description (As discussed earlier re to/cc..)
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ajordan rhiaro++ for being an evil genius :P
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Loqi rhiaro has 164 karma in this channel (286 overall)
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csarven This @graph not being allowde really restricts things
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csarven It is not that I want @graph but existing libraries use it when transformed from non-JSON-LD RDF
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csarven hmm no, that's not th case..
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csarven now I'm confused. where the heck did i see graph
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rhiaro it'll probably generate @graph by default if there's more than one subject
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rhiaro but if there's only one it won't
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rhiaro I dunno your lib though
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csarven $ curl -iLH'Accept: application/ld+json' https://linkedresearch.org/annotation/csarven.ca/dokieli-rww/b6738766-3ce5-4054-96-ced7f05b439f
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rhiaro might be able to work around it with framing if it's implemented
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csarven On disk, it is in HTML+RDFa
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csarven mayktso is transforming based on rdf-ext parsers
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rhiaro error
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csarven no @graphs there
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csarven curl -iLH'Accept: application/ld+json' https://linkedresearch.org/annotation/csarven.ca/dokieli-rww/b6738766-3ce5-4054-96a9-ced7f05b439f
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rhiaro what changed
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csarven that's what i'm pizzled about
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csarven i think it was at distiller
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csarven that showed graph
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csarven but that content does have different sbjects
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rhiaro compaction algo puts it in a graph I think
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rhiaro that looks expanded
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csarven so in the form of [{}, {}..]
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csarven yea
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csarven Spaking of which, is expanded okay for AP outbox?
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csarven that's what dokieli will send
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rhiaro no https://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-core/#jsonld
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csarven What you see there will be value of as:object
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rhiaro I think @graph comes out of flattening, reading the jsonld spec
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rhiaro or.. flattening AND compacting together
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csarven So, AS2 and AP combined.. just constraints to the most basic thing and anything 'fancy' is no good
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csarven Vritualy no one is hand coding this, and it is bunch of scripts converting stuff.. so the restrictions make no sense to me right now
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rhiaro yeah but we're supposed to be accommodating people without rdf libraries
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rhiaro who are just processing plain json
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csarven in fact, to have it work, one has to write even more code to hack it up
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rhiaro so they're definitely not compacting
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csarven AP uses JSON-LD no?
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rhiaro though cwebber2 implemented JSON-LD himself, and I think puckipedia did too?
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rhiaro re: nobody is hand coding :p
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csarven I meant that the constraint is on a subset of JSON-LD
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rhiaro if you have a lib that does json-ld framing you should just be able to write a frame and have it do the nesting for you
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rhiaro if there's no nesting then it should work out okay with just compaction
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csarven that's exactly it. that's all sorts of work that I don't want todo
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csarven because a simple from/to JSON-LD parser will keep things isomor[hic
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csarven any way
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csarven THat ship sailed
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cwebber2 csarven: the goal is to uphold two things simultaneously: that json-mindset users are able to work with data, and graph people are able to work with data (and in fact, the json-mindset users will be able to get some of the robustness of having unambiguous terms without much thinking about it)
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cwebber2 the alternative for AP's sake would have been not "triples only without framing" but "no graph at all" :)
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cwebber2 indeed you can see that the biggest current user of AP at this point came from a REST+JSON'ish type background. Here at least we were able to bridge that divide with linked data... that wouldn't have happened if we went "graph soup only".
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cwebber2 I don't mean graph soup disparagingly because it's indeed really what the world boils down to :)
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cwebber2 so anyway, I think we struck the right balance with AP / AS2 by choosing json-ld.
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csarven hmm, hang on.. I think the as:object is all oa:Annotation stuff, so since that's not in the AS2 land, can it just stay as is? Bcecause right now, I'm going to take as:Create with some other as stuff (and sure we can have that in compact) and then the as:object will just include whatever is there. would that be valid?
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cwebber2 csarven: I'm lost... can you pastebin an example?
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csarven Have a look at curl -iLH'Accept: application/ld+json' https://linkedresearch.org/annotation/csarven.ca/dokieli-rww/b6738766-3ce5-4054-96a9-ced7f05b439f -- that will be the valu of as:object
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csarven and as:Create will be wrapped around that
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cwebber2 so first of all, I recommend you compact to the activitystreams context
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cwebber2 oh
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cwebber2 you are using schema.org/name not activitystreams anyway
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csarven [15:58:44] <csarven> How much of the object that's to be Created needs to use AS2 as per AP spec?
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cwebber2 got it
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cwebber2 csarven: AP the protocol doesn't require it
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cwebber2 though for the AP terms of Create, etc, I do recommend including and compacting to the as2 context so that a json-minimal server will know what Create is
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csarven Does AS2 forbid using other vocabs (contexts) alongside? (I think not)
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cwebber2 it doesn't
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cwebber2 you can certainly do so
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csarven I'm strictly talkiung about the objct value there, not hte activity (Create0
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cwebber2 kk
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cwebber2 yeah it should be fine, though!
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csarven okie dokie
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cwebber2 you may want to do separate Creates for these
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csarven now we are getting somewhere
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cwebber2 I don't think the spec requires it
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csarven ahhh.. why
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cwebber2 but probably many implementations expect it, at present
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csarven I don't think there is a single consumer out there that receives oa:Annotation at an as:outbox :)
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csarven server/consumer
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cwebber2 you mean at an as:inbox :)
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bigbluehat ...as much as I'd love to fix that...csarven is probably right...
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cwebber2 csarven: I bet Kroeg could
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cwebber2 puckipedia's server
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csarven Firs tthing first.. if i'm not breaking rules, then we are good to go.
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cwebber2 I think Pubstrate would (and I need to double check) accept it but treat it as a vanilla Object
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csarven otherwise there is an interop gap in the specs
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cwebber2 yes, Pubstrate would accept it, looking at it
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cwebber2 it wouldn't accept an activity it didn't know
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cwebber2 but it would accept a create of an object it didn't know
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cwebber2 because it expects it would have to handle the side effect for the wrapping activity
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cwebber2 csarven: you're right that the spec doesn't prevent that though
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cwebber2 re: multiple objects at once
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cwebber2 and indeed we defer to AS2, which its example of the "object" property includes an example where multiple values are given
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csarven Incoming long URL:
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csarven https://json-ld.org/playground/#startTab=tab-expanded&json-ld=%7B%22%40context%22%3A%22https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2Fns%2Factivitystreams%22%2C%22type%22%3A%22Create%22%2C%22object%22%3A%5B%7B%22%40id%22%3A%22https%3A%2F%2Flinkedresearch.org%2Fannotation%2Fcsarven.ca%2Fdokieli-rww%2Fb6738766-3ce5-4054-96a9-ced7f05b439f%22%2C%22%40type%22%3A%5B%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2Fns%2Foa%23Annotation%22%5D%2C%22http%3A%2F%2Fschema.org%2Fname%22%3A%7B%22%40language%22%
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csarven org%2Fns%2Foa%23prefix%22%3A%7B%22%40language%22%3A%22en%22%2C%22%40value%22%3A%22rchitecture%20and%20implementation%2C%20%22%7D%2C%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2Fns%2Foa%23exact%22%3A%7B%22%40language%22%3A%22en%22%2C%22%40value%22%3A%22demonstrating%20advanced%20document%20authoring%20and%20interaction%20without%20a%20single%20point%20of%20control%22%7D%2C%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2Fns%2Foa%23suffix%22%3A%7B%22%40language%22%3A%22en%22%2C%22%40value%22%3A%
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csarven 22.%20Such%20an%20environment%20provides%20t%22%7D%7D%2C%7B%22%40id%22%3A%22https%3A%2F%2Flinkedresearch.org%2Fannotation%2Fcsarven.ca%2Fdokieli-rww%2Fb6738766-3ce5-4054-96a9-ced7f05b439f%23note-b6738766-3ce5-4054-96a9-ced7f05b439f%22%2C%22http%3A%2F%2Fschema.org%2Fname%22%3A%7B%22%40language%22%3A%22en%22%2C%22%40value%22%3A%22Note%22%7D%2C%22http%3A%2F%2Fpurl.org%2Fdc%2Fterms%2Frights%22%3A%7B%22%40id%22%3A%22https%3A%2F%2Fcreativecommons.org%2Flicenses%
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csarven 2Fby%2F4.0%2F%22%7D%2C%22%40type%22%3A%5B%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2Fns%2Foa%23TextualBody%22%5D%2C%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F1999%2F02%2F22-rdf-syntax-ns%23value%22%3A%7B%22%40type%22%3A%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F1999%2F02%2F22-rdf-syntax-ns%23HTML%22%2C%22%40value%22%3A%22What%20are%20you%20trying%20to%20tell%20me%3F%20That%20I%20can%20dodge%20bullets%3F%22%7D%2C%22http%3A%2F%2Fschema.org%2Fdescription%22%3A%7B%22%40type%22%3A%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.
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csarven org%2F1999%2F02%2F22-rdf-syntax-ns%23HTML%22%2C%22%40value%22%3A%22What%20are%20you%20trying%20to%20tell%20me%3F%20That%20I%20can%20dodge%20bullets%3F%22%7D%7D%5D%7D&frame=%7B%7D&context=%7B%7D
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csarven OUCH
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csarven So, that probably cut off for you all?
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cwebber2 oof
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csarven Couldn't get a short URL on that
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cwebber2 you weren't kidding
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cwebber2 csarven: could you pastebin it instead
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cwebber2 it's line-wrapped
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cwebber2 or at least
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cwebber2 what are you linking it for
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csarven https://gist.github.com/csarven/339048def166f79727ccf445f2f38b79
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csarven So, is that valid 1) AS2 2) valid payload for AP outbox?
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tantek checks logs and sees a bunch of URL encoded spew wtf
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csarven tantek that's a label intended to be read (out loud) by humans
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csarven preferably in meetings
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tantek csarven ?
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tantek sees 0 people on the SWICG Mumble server, assumes call is over
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ajordan tantek: no call today
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tantek thanks ajordan
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ajordan np!
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ajordan btw congrats on the Quantum release!!
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ajordan "yoo omg I updated Firefox and it is SO FAST WTF - this update is all I've been waiting for to stick with Firefox" - my friend
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csarven uses Firefox Nightly so he diesn't understand the Quantum stuff
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Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2017-11-14]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=105220&oldid=105215
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ajordan csarven: same lol
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tantek csarven - you've been living it for a while then, and perhaps saw the speed increase gradually
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csarven certainly!
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ajordan though it's been unstable for me recently, maybe cause of e14smulti :/
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ajordan been meaning to report a bug but it's not reproducible UGH
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tantek edits the home page
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ajordan tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 74 karma in this channel (401 overall)
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ajordan alright real question is, is it worth hacking on my Webmention implementation for 7 minutes before I go to lunch
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tantek yes of course
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ajordan can't argue with that logic!
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tantek Draft agenda for next week up: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-11-21 please add as necessary!
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tantek ajordan, are you working on sending or receiving?
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ajordan sending
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ajordan I receive via webmention.io
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tantek nice. so do I
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ajordan this is the implementation I mentioned yesterday, I *think* you were on the call at the time?
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tantek ajordan, do you support posting RSVPs?
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tantek yes I was
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ajordan generally? or via Micropub?
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tantek generally, like at your website with a permalink
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ajordan I build my site statically out of Markdown so in principal I can do any type of markup (that's how I RSVP'd to IndieWebCamp in June, I just manually wrote an RSVP)
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ajordan so yes
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ajordan it ended up on my blog though which was a little wird
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ajordan s/wird/weird/
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ajordan my site actually has relatively primitive IndieWeb support for me being in this group lol
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Loqi Tantekelik made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2017-11-21]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=105223&oldid=0
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Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=105222&oldid=105200
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tantek ajordan cool! when you want to try sending a webmention, you can try RSVPing to today's HWC SF (even if the answer is "no" :) ) http://tantek.com/2017/319/e1/homebrew-website-club and you should see it show up very quickly there at the bottom
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Loqi Homebrew Website Club SF
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ajordan sounds great!
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ajordan I probably won't ship today though. _maybe_?
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ajordan lol the core has worked great for a while now, it's just polish stuff at this point
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ajordan a decent logging story and also not throwing Errors in the middle of requests and crashing Node
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ajordan although I _could_ just run it on localhost and send Webmentions anyway...
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puckipedia <rhiaro> though cwebber2 implemented JSON-LD himself, and I think puckipedia did too? <- I have, lol
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puckipedia csarven: my suggestion is to only Create a single object at a time
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csarven That's vague
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puckipedia in https://gist.github.com/csarven/339048def166f79727ccf445f2f38b79
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puckipedia also there's no as:actor on the as:Create
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csarven the 'object' makes sense as a whole
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csarven individual statements could just as well be objects, but why bother
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csarven Sure.. only wanted to show type Create and object
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puckipedia csarven: the as:object is https://linkedresearch.org/annotation/csarven.ca/dokieli-rww/b6738766-3ce5-4054-96a9-ced7f05b439f; http://csarven.ca/dokieli-rww#abstract; and http://csarven.ca/#i
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puckipedia oh and the note fragment thingy
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csarven Why
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csarven the primary object that's being created is the annotation (a note if you will)
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csarven the rest is descriptions based off that
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csarven But I'd like to understand why create single objects at a time
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csarven and whether that's a requirement
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puckipedia so technically, it isn't -- but the spec is ambiguous enough that, I think, every single implementation only supports a single object
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puckipedia and somehow I feel like you aren't creating your schema:Person every single time
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csarven Obviously not
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csarven again, the 'object' is about the annotation
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puckipedia then only as:Create that object
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csarven dissecting that into groups of statements centered around a subject is arbitrary i find
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csarven it has references ot parts that would need to exist somewhere
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csarven like the note itself
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csarven Can't simply remodel Annotation into AS
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puckipedia well, there's no requirement t hat you as:Create every single object. as:Create just notifies everyone that you created it (in s2s, in c2s it does store it as well)
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csarven if implementations only wish to support a single object for create, that's their call right?
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csarven the spec doesn't prevent multiple objects as I understand it
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rhiaro one of the triples in there is <> as:object <http://csarven.ca/#i>. Is that right?
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csarven doesn't seem right.. where at?
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rhiaro where <> is the Create, so semantically that means you created <http://csarven.ca/#i>
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rhiaro that's what puckipedia is saying
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puckipedia ^ that's what I mentioned as well
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rhiaro the object value is a list
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rhiaro of things, including <http://csarven.ca/#i>
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csarven I see
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csarven I think the example is wrong
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csarven basically i want that whole thing to be 'the' object
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csarven The array with multiple objects
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csarven have to re nest that object starting with the annotation as root
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csarven Updated example
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csarven Are we good with that?
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puckipedia yep, though you can replace @id with id and @type with type - AS defines those aliases
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csarven using libs here to convert, not handcoding
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csarven i could postprocess.. but not sure what the gain is
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puckipedia ehm, why isn't your JSON-LD doing the above
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puckipedia it /should/ do the above
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csarven my lib gives me expanded
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csarven and i'm gong to process that to do the nesting
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puckipedia compact it with the @context?
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csarven Source is HTML+RDFa
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csarven I'm not sure I get a choice on the output unfortunately
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csarven hmm apparently it is there on a lower layer somewhere
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tantek !tell ajordan were you able to get your RSVP post to automatically send a Webmention?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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xmpp-social [ajordan] tantek: haven't posted it yet
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xmpp-social [ajordan] I just got out of class and now I have a meeting about doing some research in the spring :-)
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cwebber2 https://mastodon.social/@ortegacmanuel/99009958174165183 yay
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Loqi [Manuel Ortega] I'll be showcasing a mini #ActivityPub implementation in #Ruby during the November Ruby meeting in #Madrid http://www.madridrb.com/topics/mini-implementacion-de-activitypub-en-ruby-567 Here the code https://github.com/ortegacmanuel/hanatachi/blob/mas...
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Loqi ?
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puckipedia and I can client-side render emojis :)
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puckipedia https://dl.puckipedia.com/up/emojo.png
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ajordan lol alright tantek
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Loqi ajordan: tantek left you a message 1 hour, 29 minutes ago: were you able to get your RSVP post to automatically send a Webmention?
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ajordan I want to take a nap but I'm gonna try RSVP'ing before I do, just for you
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tantek woohoo!
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Loqi giggles
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ajordan alright, post deployed to production and I added some logging so I can actually see what's going on
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ajordan here goes nothin!
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ajordan lol I was like "GitHub has a Webmention endpoint????" and then realized my log message was misleading
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ajordan tantek: weird, it *definitely* sent (according to my logs) from the permalink to the right post, but I don't see it live on your website
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ajordan do you show rsvp nos? do you show mentions with no profile picture (I think my post pages don't have my full h-card)
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ajordan oh yikes I don't link to my profile picture *anywhere*
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tantek ajordan yes I show "no" RSVPs
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tantek pretty sure I saved an example of one that got lots of nos
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tantek it should work even without a profile pic
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tantek ajordan what was the URL?
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bengo started federated conversation with @cwebber2 about the ActivityPub features at risk and which people can implement before next week (cc puckipedia )
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bengo https://distbin.com/activities/14020ff5-289a-49df-9fe0-f4fd93865bfe
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cwebber2 :D
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cwebber2 federated pastebinnnnn
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puckipedia cwebber2: server:security-considerations:sanitize-fields, shouldn't that be client?
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cwebber2 puckipedia: yes, you're right
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cwebber2 I have a local TODO to switch it over ;)
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puckipedia anyways, I am working on ticking most of the No/(N/A) items to Yes :P
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cwebber2 I guess I could do it now but I also need to update the test suite
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cwebber2 puckipedia: :D :D :D
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cwebber2 is also working on flipping as many of theirs to yes as possible! currently working on inbox:delivery:deliver-to-collection:recursively
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puckipedia server:security-considerations:do-not-post-to-localhost done
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cwebber2 puckipedia: nice :D
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cwebber2 puckipedia: you want to file an issue with all these updates or want me to flip 'em as you go?
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puckipedia the client tags, in order of page, yes/yes/yes/yes/(can't do Add/Remove)/yes/no/no/yes
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puckipedia so, ehm, do I add a quick "add to collection/remove from collection" thingy - yes I do
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cwebber2 puckipedia: sounds like you're doing a bunch at once... when you feel like it, wanna open an issue with a list of ones to flip from no -> yes?
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cwebber2 and ty ty ty ty ty ty
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puckipedia sounds good :P
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cwebber2 :D
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puckipedia also quick question: what *does* count for the filtering malicious content? :P
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puckipedia because Kroeg is trying to be as generic as possible...
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puckipedia it's easy enough to hook something into Kroeg to filter spam
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cwebber2 if you have a hook into the application where you can plug in any sort of filter
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cwebber2 that qualifies IMO
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cwebber2 keeps it extensible too
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puckipedia well, Kroeg already processes every item going through an in/outbox by putting it through a bunch of filters
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cwebber2 I think here meaning filtering specifically for unwanted content
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cwebber2 but what "unwanted content" means is left open
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cwebber2 hence me suggesting some kind of hook
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puckipedia right, so I'll pop in a bit of code that allows you to load external libs and then decide the order in which filters are ran inside the config :P
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puckipedia and add the """spam""" filter as an example
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cwebber2 bd
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cwebber2 (thumbs up)
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puckipedia :D: I can't create Collections from the GUI
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puckipedia fixed https://puckipedia.com/status/fb732ab2/this-is-a-collection
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puckipedia :D that's a collection containing an object I added with the "add" button :P
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puckipedia Remove didn't work
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puckipedia ugh ugh ugh I know why
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puckipedia I also know why deduplication didn't work
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cwebber2 horray I implemented inbox:delivery:deliver-to-collection:recursively
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puckipedia aand I fixed deduplication *and* removing entities
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puckipedia post is gone again :D
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puckipedia ticks box
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cwebber2 yay
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Loqi woot
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puckipedia for recursively-add-targets, does a depth of 1 count? :P
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puckipedia ... also I'm 100% sure my templating language is now turing-complete
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cwebber2 puckipedia: that's... sneaky ;)
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cwebber2 puckipedia: I don't think that counts.
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puckipedia okay I'll add multiple layers of recursion
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puckipedia wow this is broken
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puckipedia https://dl.puckipedia.com/up/broken_recursion.png
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puckipedia fixed
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puckipedia it recurses, but only 3 posts deep
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puckipedia cwebber2: so far, https://gist.github.com/puckipedia/80b3494fc69f578ae96534641c6c8e5c -- I think
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cwebber2 puckipedia: cool, updating
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puckipedia not yet done :P
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cwebber2 puckipedia: oh
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cwebber2 oops
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puckipedia eh
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cwebber2 should I not have pushed?
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puckipedia it's one no/yes :P
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cwebber2 heh :)
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cwebber2 lmk when to flip that last it
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cwebber2 bit
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cwebber2 Kroeg is the coolest AP implementation because it's the completest ;)
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cwebber2 is completest a word?
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cwebber2 psh
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cwebber2 wow!
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cwebber2 puckipedia: that knocked out all the client ones!
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puckipedia I know :P
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puckipedia tbh I had most of them
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puckipedia but the client part of Kroeg is weirdly wonky
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puckipedia time to test the """Spam""" filter
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cwebber2 \o/
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puckipedia cwebber2: this configurable enough? :P https://github.com/puckipedia/Kroeg/commit/bc5f31e8f31e10f10c0460ea887c1998b5372039
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cwebber2 puckipedia: LGTM
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cwebber2 I think since you made it extensible that meets the criteria
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puckipedia and I have a prepared Spam filter :P
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puckipedia tbh a config field that says "regex to filter content with" would be good enough I bet
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cwebber2 seems like you could slot that in with the demo plugin
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puckipedia of course :P
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cwebber2 and indeed that's not far from how early spam filters worked
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puckipedia a neural network that tries to decide which posts are okay:
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puckipedia Math.random() < 0.9 ? ok : not ok
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cwebber2 lol
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cwebber2 one node to kind of rule them all
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ajordan tantek: sorry
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ajordan https://strugee.net/blog/2017/11/not-going-to-todays-hwc-san-fransisco-2017
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ajordan
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Loqi [AJ Jordan] Not going to today's HWC San Fransisco
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cwebber2 puckipedia: I think with that I'm gonna flip Kroeg's final unflipped bit!
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puckipedia sooo, which ones do we still need an implementation of, heh
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cwebber2 puckipedia: https://activitypub.rocks/implementation-report/ congrats on being AP's first totally-complete AP implementation :)
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cwebber2 https://distbin.com/activities/030d37a5-34d8-44f9-aea3-6de33c05c353
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cwebber2 updooted
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cwebber2 hm didn't nicely preserve newlines tho :)
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puckipedia yeah :<
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cwebber2 http://sebsauvage.net/paste/?2719853236374fcc#MMJEuB86A2+1ZNWU1Fn8yu6hJoDgYNFZbXx3BzqGRGI= alternate ;)
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puckipedia gonna try to force a distbin object into Kroeg
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cwebber2 that's 50% of them knocked out in one day though!
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cwebber2 we're gonna make itttttt!
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puckipedia :)
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cwebber2 so the rest of them I just need to do also... I think they should be pretty easy
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puckipedia I just realised I don't do s2s Add/Remove to local collection
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puckipedia ... I very quickly fixed that
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tantek whoa scrollback
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cwebber2 tantek: puckipedia is killin' it over here
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tantek ajordan: s/Fransisco/Francisco
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tantek wonders if ajordan's slugs are 1) editable, 2) redirect properly or 404 when edited
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tantek ajordan your markup looks like it produces an RSVP h-entry properly with author http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https://strugee.net/blog/2017/11/not-going-to-todays-hwc-san-fransisco-2017
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tantek however it looks like a webmention was never received from struggee.net: https://webmention.io/api/mentions.jf2?target=http://tantek.com/2017/319/e1/homebrew-website-club&wm-property=rsvp&sort-by=rsvp
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tantek ajordan - does your lazymention tool have a log of Webmentions discovered/sent?
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tantek either of us could always manually send a webmention, but that's not the point - hoping to help figure out and make sure lazymention is working as expected
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ajordan tantek: whoops, typo fixed
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ajordan tantek: slugs are just the Markdown filename so I just avoid renaming files once they're published
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ajordan if I ever did I'd have to redirect in Apache
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ajordan logs coming up
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ajordan https://gist.github.com/strugee/b6f751e84053a9de289569888dfd0501
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ajordan there's a filtered, pretty version at the bottom of the gist, or you can view the JSON locally with `bunyan`
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ajordan which is on npm
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ajordan https://github.com/strugee/lazymention/blob/feeb87b99ad5408b825fe726ae66cd833fc69e86/lib/webmention.js#L61 here's where that's coming from - since the logs say it worked I'm inclined to think it's a bug in the Webmention library I'm using
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ajordan which tbh doesn't seem so great
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ajordan the underlying discovery library works fine but manually invoking the sending library returns success: false
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ajordan aand the only other thing it shows me is the HTML which isn't helpful
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ajordan sighs because this library is unnecessarily complicated
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tantek which one the discovery or sending?
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tantek (library)
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ajordan sending. discovery might be too but it works so I say Ship It
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tantek ajordan, how do I lookup those libraries from your webmention.js source?
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tantek is there some magical code discovery that occurs upon a "require('webmention-client')" ?
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ajordan require() pulls from node_modules
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ajordan s/pulls/loads/
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ajordan https://github.com/strugee/node-webmention-client is the source for that
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Loqi [strugee] node-webmention-client: WebMention Client
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ajordan hang on, I'm busting out a debugger
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tantek logs seem to indicate you're passing in the right target URL
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ajordan I'm stepping through the library in a debugger and I just got back HTTP 200 from (I think?) the POST
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tantek the POST to webmention.io ?
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ajordan yeah
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ajordan I think. I'm not sure
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tantek I didn't think it returned 200. I thought it returned one of the other 20x codes
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ajordan ah yeah the library checks success by seeing if the response is 202
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ajordan I get back HTML in the body too which is strange
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tantek no that's normal - in case the POST was the result of a form submission from a browser, the HTML returned is displayed!
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tantek helps with manual debugging of webmention endpoints
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ajordan ahhh right
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ajordan think I found the problem
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ajordan I think it's doing a GET, not a POST. I may have broken it when I upgraded a dependency
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ajordan or maybe it was broken already - come to think of it, the test suite didn't pass. but I assumed it was my machine
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tantek a-ha!
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tantek yes it definitely needs a POST
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ajordan RTFM's
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tantek I think a GET will return you an HTML form UI that you can use to manually send a POST :)
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ajordan lol no kidding
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ajordan yeah that's what I found strange about the HTML
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tantek in case someone decides to just browse to the URL to see what's there
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ajordan it had the <form>
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tantek there you go!
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tantek I think it's actually quite a nice API design pattern
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tantek fallback to a simple manual UI
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tantek serves as discovery, teaching, and manual testing all in one
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ajordan yeah it's nice
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ajordan content negotiation at its fniest
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tantek HTML can do all kinds of cool things
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ajordan s/fniest/finest/
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tantek technically not even conneg. just GET vs POST different verb handling
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ajordan Webmention is `application/x-www-form-urlencoded` yeah?
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tantek Webmention is default HTML form submission, which is yes that :)
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ajordan wonders how in the world this library shipped
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tantek turned out there was no need for XML-RPC in the first place. HTML had all the necessary features.
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tantek overarchitecture seems to be a common design anti-pattern in web related technologies
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ajordan alright let's try this again... I'm deleting the record that says we sent a mention already
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ajordan tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 75 karma in this channel (402 overall)
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tantek :)
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ajordan also you'd like the design of lazymention - it doesn't fall into the db antipattern ;)
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tantek indeed!
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ajordan it works! \o/
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ajordan didn't show up on tantek.com though
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ajordan but it's present in https://webmention.io/api/mentions.jf2?target=http://tantek.com/2017/319/e1/homebrew-website-club&wm-property=rsvp&sort-by=rsvp
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tantek oh?
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tantek hmm
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tantek ok let me check the stream.tmbu output
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ajordan pulls his changes out of the npm-managed directory before he accidentally blows away his bugfix
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tantek oh yeah! be sure to make a pull request to upstream your fix!
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tantek ajordan: it's showing up but without a profile pic, it's 0px wide and the not attending [x] overlaps the previous RSVP
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tantek http://tantek.com/2017/319/e1/homebrew-website-club
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Loqi Homebrew Website Club SF
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ajordan I've already had to patch it to make it work on modern Node.js versions - sent a PR; upstream seems dead unfortunately
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tantek so that's something I need to figure out, better fallback for RSVPs without a profile pic
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ajordan I'll just publish my version to the npm registry. it'll show up on the front page since there aren't that many results for "webmention" :P