2017-12-19 UTC
# 00:02 Gargron saranix: i feel like you underestimate the benefits of a changing key for every message # 00:02 Gargron and how it relates to storing messages server-side for later retrieval # 00:03 Gargron like, if i understand correctly, you are arguing in favour of a more traditional gpg system, right? # 00:03 Gargron so all DMs would be encrypted with the same key # 00:58 Loqi [@Hellchick] For those of you who work in social media, I need to share the story of my friend who died, and I didn't know because algorithms. # 03:43 saranix Gargron: I probably am underestimating the benefit, but I know I'm not underestimating the difficulty of getting it right. I'm not arguing in favor, just saying that sometimes good enough is good enough, and not everything has to be military grade bwn and xmpp-social joined the channel
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# 15:36 tantek processing as many PTD issues as I can before the telcon # 15:43 banjofox that sounds like fun KevinMarks and KevinMarks_ joined the channel
# 17:42 tantek no outstanding issues you want to discuss about it? eprodrom joined the channel
# 18:03 puckipedia oh right, it's tuesday. somehow I thought it was wednesday lol RRSAgent joined the channel
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# 18:04 Loqi eprodrom: csarven left you a message 3 days, 6 hours ago: Is as2.rocks taking a bath? # 18:06 eprodrom ben_thatmustbeme: are you on the call? # 18:06 Zakim rhiaro, you need to end that query with '?' # 18:06 Zakim Present: aaronpk, sandro, rhiaro, eprodrom # 18:06 Zakim On IRC I see RRSAgent, eprodrom, KevinMarks, tantek, rowan, xmpp-social, bwn, KjetilK, trackbot, Loqi, jankusanagi_, cwebber2, ben_thatmustbeme, Chocobozzz, dlongley, puckipedia, # 18:06 Zakim ... csarven, aaronpk, jet, sandro, distopico, DenSchub, dlehn, rhiaro, sknebel, ajordan, hadleybeeman, er1n, raucao, saranix, erincandescent, Gargron, melody, mattl, bigbluehat, # 18:06 Zakim ... surinna, bitbear, howl, dwhly, tsyesika, nightpool # 18:06 eprodrom tantek: did you call in? # 18:06 tantek puts down the text editor, grabs the earphone # 18:06 eprodrom yes I think you're chairing today # 18:07 rhiaro Attention everyone, last ever SWWG telecon. Roll up roll up, grab popcorn # 18:07 tantek eprodrom: can you start chairing and do the minutes approval # 18:07 eprodrom tantek: will do # 18:07 eprodrom scribe please? # 18:08 xmpp-social [ajordan] Omg I completely forgot and just woke up, dialing in # 18:08 eprodrom anyone on the phone who can scribe? # 18:08 eprodrom Maybe someone whose document has gone to PR already? # 18:12 cwebber2 eprodrom: I'd like to take a few minutes to talk about the main subject of our discussion today which is our note-track documents which we need to approve/disapprove for publication # 18:12 aaronpk has a bottle in the fridge but is fighting off a cold and should not partake # 18:13 cwebber2 eprodrom: before we do those I'd like to cover our Rec-track documents and make sure the ones that have not gone out all the way.. # 18:13 cwebber2 aaronpk: I did actually meet with som Twitch developers yesterday # 18:13 cwebber2 aaronpk: they finished their websub api, and they were super excited the spec existed and that they could use it as a template for their API # 18:14 cwebber2 aaronpk: it often answered questions they didn't know they had, a good sign # 18:14 cwebber2 aaronpk: one aspect of it where I added a slight change to the text # 18:14 cwebber2 aaronpk: clarifying that hubs may set a default value for ??? seconds # 18:14 cwebber2 aaronpk: it says the hubs can respect or not, is optional, they hadn't set a default value # 18:14 cwebber2 aaronpk: if a subscriber does not set a request lease seconds, hub can set a default lease duration # 18:15 cwebber2 aaronpk: that added confusion for devs so I added it to the spec # 18:15 cwebber2 aaronpk: hopefully that's the version we'll publish as a Rec # 18:15 cwebber2 eprodrom: sandro, anything else to do for websub to go through? # 18:16 cwebber2 sandro: afaik everything's good, trying to get confirmation # 18:16 cwebber2 sandro: we're well past the deadline so we're just waiting # 18:16 cwebber2 eprodrom: I'm not sure if I'm overstating it too much, but of what I think this group has done I think it's the broadest value, something to be proud of # 18:16 Loqi websub has 2 karma in this channel (3 overall) # 18:16 cwebber2 eprodrom: on behalf of the group, aaronpk thanks a lot and thanks to you and julien for taking it all the way through # 18:18 ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2: no new issues, no new news, i don't think there is anything to report or discuss, i think its just waiting on steps to REC status # 18:19 ajordan sandro are you able to tell us who the votes are from? just curious # 18:20 ben_thatmustbeme that way when the transition request goes through, each change has a documented issue # 18:21 ben_thatmustbeme ... we really should have added a week or two to the deadline to account for the holidays # 18:22 ben_thatmustbeme tantek: does anyone in the group think we should REQUEST an extensions on the PR vote deadline. and often that type of request is accepted # 18:22 ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: i just wanted to add my voice to say we extend it say 2 weeks in to january because of the holiday # 18:23 ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2: yeah, it sounds like its good, i can't imagine any reason why it would be anything but good # 18:24 ben_thatmustbeme ... if for some reason you come up with other editorial fixed, file issues on them and we'll try to process them through github # 18:25 cwebber2 ben_thatmustbeme: no updates on JF2, no new issues, no changes since last week... just waiting for people to read it through and see if there are any problems # 18:26 cwebber2 eprodrom: I wanted to ask on the JF2 we have a number of open issues # 18:26 cwebber2 ben_thatmustbeme: for most of them I need to organize them, some of them I discussed offline # 18:27 cwebber2 ben_thatmustbeme: most of them aren't responded and I need to flag as timeout effectively # 18:27 cwebber2 eprodrom: there's definitely a slog to get through some of the comments... long multi-paragraph convos. from a process POV if we publish JF2 as a note today, how will the issues be addressed / get resolved? # 18:27 cwebber2 tantek: good question, that's why we talked about maintenance last time # 18:27 ajordan ah and I've just realized I never responded to the normative one :/ # 18:28 cwebber2 sandro: I was going to ask eprodrom to clarify, what seems unclear? # 18:28 cwebber2 eprodrom: if we publish as a note, does that mean we won't resolve these issues? or will we say "ben can resolve issues and make editorial changes over some time period # 18:28 cwebber2 sandro: I don't think there's a way to update the nope unless we have a new WG # 18:29 cwebber2 tantek: what we could do is resolve to do is assuming we publish it as a note today, we can resolve to allow editor to make editorial changes and update the note # 18:29 cwebber2 sandro: we can make requests to publish until the WG is closed # 18:30 cwebber2 eprodrom: I assume we'd hand off to the SocialCG any future issues, etc? # 18:30 cwebber2 sandro: I like the idea of the note somewhere fairly prominent saying "here's where we expect ongoing work to be happening" # 18:30 cwebber2 tantek: so the default thing we discussed last time was to allow people to adjust ED in place # 18:31 cwebber2 tantek: any note-track things link to the ED so we can say "here's informal updates" etc # 18:31 cwebber2 sandro: they don't even need to say that, the top of the document says "here's the ED <link>" # 18:31 cwebber2 tantek: yeah I think that's fine and provides the flexibility for the editor to choose where they want to work on it # 18:32 cwebber2 tantek: once we close the WG we can't publish it as a note, but we can use it as a CG report # 18:32 cwebber2 tantek: we do have the ED, and as long as the ED indicates "here's the official version at FOO location" # 18:32 cwebber2 tantek: if there aren't any other questions about JF2 I'd like to propose it published as a note # 18:32 cwebber2 sandro: include something about publishing over next 10 days? # 18:33 Zakim Present: aaronpk, sandro, rhiaro, eprodrom, ben_thatmustbeme, ajordan, tantek # 18:33 Zakim ... csarven, aaronpk, jet, sandro, distopico, DenSchub, dlehn, rhiaro, sknebel, ajordan, hadleybeeman, er1n, raucao, saranix, erincandescent, Gargron, melody, mattl, bigbluehat, # 18:33 Zakim ... surinna, bitbear, howl, dwhly, tsyesika, nightpool # 18:33 Zakim sees on irc: RRSAgent, eprodrom, KevinMarks, tantek, rowan, xmpp-social, bwn, KjetilK, trackbot, Loqi, jankusanagi_, cwebber2, ben_thatmustbeme, Chocobozzz, dlongley, puckipedia, # 18:34 cwebber2 ben_thatmustbeme: going through issues now, to see which ones have been resolved # 18:34 ajordan ben_thatmustbeme: my finals are done Thursday so I can try to send some PRs, *maybe* before then but definitely after # 18:35 cwebber2 ben_thatmustbeme: some of them, esp the longer ones from AJ need to be split out into separate issues, some of them have been handled as well # 18:35 cwebber2 ben_thatmustbeme: I don't see any changes other than minor issues but I think we should split out the minor issues into new issues # 18:35 cwebber2 ben_thatmustbeme: most of them are working with ajordan I think # 18:36 cwebber2 ben_thatmustbeme: the only one I can see that would be normative is we discussed with references you have an embedded object beneath the main object you can maybe reference directly in the main object # 18:36 cwebber2 ben_thatmustbeme: so you can say here it is but I can't guarantee it's correct # 18:37 Loqi [richardcarls] #11 Example 13: author card should be moved to references property # 18:37 Loqi [richardcarls] #11 Example 13: author card should be moved to references property # 18:37 cwebber2 ben_thatmustbeme: when it a requirement that it must be a reference... I'm very hesitant because people are using it as-is # 18:38 cwebber2 tantek: one labels we have on our issues is postpone to future version, I've been saying that for this is out of what can be done # 18:39 cwebber2 ajordan: seems like what we're really discussing here is whether or not the spec can be more uniform or whether we want to have... it's really a minor nit, it doesn't matter a ton # 18:40 cwebber2 ajordan: historically I'm not sure we've ever decided to break implementations, whatever # 18:40 ajordan ben_thatmustbeme: hope you feel better. I'm just getting sick myself :/ # 18:40 cwebber2 tantek: alright, a couple of options, we could reject the request saying it would break existing implementations, or propose ??? # 18:40 cwebber2 ben_thatmustbeme: my preference is to reject it to say it'll break code # 18:41 tantek PROPOSED: Resolve jf2 issue 11 with reject because it will break existing impls. # 18:42 ajordan never again am I filing a massive issue like that, this is such a pain :/ # 18:42 cwebber2 +0 <- not breaking things is good but I don't know what's going on ;) # 18:42 tantek RESOLVED: Resolve jf2 issue 11 with reject because it will break existing impls. # 18:43 cwebber2 ben_thatmustbeme: I think most are non-normative documentation or are long-winding convos best to postpone # 18:46 tantek PROPOSED: Allow editor to make non-normative changes to jf2 per issues, and with reviewer aaronpk approval (in issues), publish updated jf2 NOTEs until group close. # 18:47 tantek RESOLVED: Allow editor to make non-normative changes to jf2 per issues, and with reviewer aaronpk approval (in issues), publish updated jf2 NOTEs until group close. # 18:49 cwebber2 tantek: so I have updated PTD with resolutions to issues I thought were appropriate for the general scope of changes the group has been moving forward with # 18:50 ajordan tantek: there are two "to this version"s in the changelog # 18:50 Loqi [rhiaro] #9 Use AS2 specific language for post types # 18:50 cwebber2 tantek: there are a handful of issues waiting for commenter, some have been postponed / edited # 18:51 cwebber2 eprodrom: a lot of them seem future development of PTD, do any seem normative for this version of PTD # 18:52 cwebber2 tantek: probably the biggest normative changes are one change to add event type discovery because we had numerous implementations of that, and the other normative change is I added the as2 equivalents table # 18:53 cwebber2 tantek: that's probably the biggest normative change requested per issue 9 and 15... was waiting for list of events # 18:53 cwebber2 tantek: that all went fine but I had one challenge with that... I could not find the AS2 equivalent to a repost # 18:53 aaronpk q+ to request 30 more minutes for the call because we still have two specs to get to # 18:54 Zakim aaronpk, you wanted to request 30 more minutes for the call because we still have two specs to get to # 18:55 ajordan cwebber2 but then why not keep Share instead of Announce? because it's supposedly more "general" # 18:55 rhiaro ajordan i can suggest some issues to read on the topic :p cdchapman joined the channel
# 18:55 cwebber2 was not in general in support of the massive term-culling but that's kind of behind us now # 18:57 cwebber2 eprodrom: aside from these items do you feel this is ready to go to Note as editor? # 18:57 eprodrom PROPOSED: publish Post Type Discovery ED as a Note # 18:58 ajordan q+ to ask about Note publishing process, but we should probably vote on extending first # 18:58 eprodrom RESOLVED: publish Post Type Discovery ED as a Note # 18:59 cwebber2 tantek: potential non-normative issues, maybe I can do before the end of the group # 19:00 Loqi [strugee] #34 Move Implementations section to the W3C wiki # 19:00 cwebber2 eprodrom: if we're there we should probably round it up and move on to the next doc, thanks for the work you've done on this tantek # 19:02 ben_thatmustbeme PROPOSED: Allow editor to make non-normative changes to PTD per issues, and with reviewer ben_thatmustbeme approval (in issues), publish updated PTD NOTEs until group close. # 19:03 eprodrom RESOLVED: Allow editor to make non-normative changes to PTD per issues, and with reviewer ben_thatmustbeme approval (in issues), publish updated PTD NOTEs until group close. # 19:04 Zakim ajordan, you wanted to ask about Note publishing process, but we should probably vote on extending first # 19:05 cwebber2 eprodrom: I don't think notes have the same level of IP scrutiny that rec-draft documents have # 19:06 cwebber2 rhiaro: did a bunch of updates, I think it's ready to publish # 19:07 cwebber2 tantek: are there any particular major changes which you think the group should look at? # 19:08 cwebber2 rhiaro: profile section is mostly new, it's not big... also added authentication next ot the bit # 19:08 sandro was trying to indicate without interrupting that he has to step away for a moment, cwebber2 # 19:09 cwebber2 tantek: anyone have any questions regarding the status of SWP/ # 19:10 cwebber2 rhiaro: I think I'm going to close this one because a feature matrix would be huge and complicated, and the spec has changed a lot # 19:10 tantek PROPOSED: Resolve SWP issue 17 as wont fix -- too much work # 19:11 ajordan oh we're just resolving not to expand it basically? # 19:11 tantek RESOLVED: Resolve SWP issue 17 as wont fix -- too much work # 19:14 Loqi [aaronpk] #56 Reference key related specs # 19:15 cwebber2 tantek: is this an issue that can be resolved after the version we publish today? # 19:16 aaronpk s/not if it gets to note/not if it should get into this same note # 19:16 cwebber2 I feel like analyzing what microsub as a new spec is in the next 15 minutes is impossible # 19:16 aaronpk microsub is a separate issue not mentioned in #56 # 19:17 tantek aaronpk, can we do #58 after we publish today? # 19:17 cwebber2 rhiaro: microformats is referenced throughout the document but I can add it to that section # 19:18 cwebber2 rhiaro: oauth and indieauth I think maybe don't go as much on that list, I'll add microformats # 19:18 cwebber2 tantek: did you say you have a resolution on #56 you'd commit? # 19:18 aaronpk s/oauth and indieauth I think maybe don't/oauth I think maybe doesn't/ # 19:20 Loqi rhiaro has 167 karma in this channel (289 overall) # 19:21 cwebber2 rhiaro: re: other issues, but I have a bunch of travel plans for the end of the month # 19:22 ajordan I sent a patch with literally a single character change # 19:24 cwebber2 aaronpk: why not link to wiki in related specifications section # 19:25 tantek Update to RESOLVED - include resolution to #58 per consensus # 19:25 cwebber2 tantek: any other issues that need to be resolved for SWP since rhiaro says no updates after today? # 19:25 ajordan can the CG take over SWP if rhiaro doesn't want to update it further? # 19:25 eprodrom That makes sense # 19:26 cwebber2 ajordan let's leave that to rhiaro to decide at a later date # 19:26 cwebber2 tantek: socialcg could do updates, but strongly suggest working with the editor # 19:26 cwebber2 ajordan: I didn't meant is the CG allowed to but would rhiaro mind # 19:27 cwebber2 aaronpk: a few issues filed, reviewed document, they're addressed... good news is there's activity on it and it's better than it was 2 weeks ago # 19:28 cwebber2 eprodrom: glad to see there's been discussion/review of indieauth, seeing a number of issues/resolutions makes me more confidence in it as a note # 19:28 cwebber2 eprodrom: anything that might keep this from being published? # 19:29 cwebber2 aaronpk: I believe everything in here have been implemented # 19:29 cwebber2 eprodrom: some placeholders for test suite etc, but that's probably fine for note track? # 19:30 cwebber2 aaronpk: this is what people are using with micropub right now, it links to the other specs for future work / issues # 19:31 cwebber2 tantek: sandro, do we need to do anything special to publish a note for the first time? # 19:31 cwebber2 sandro: I don't think so, the process is the same, which is we need permission for Phillipe, which we need for notes too # 19:32 cwebber2 sandro: we probably want to wait for all these Dec 31st changes, right? # 19:33 cwebber2 tantek: if there are no other questions for indieauth, let's go to a proposal # 19:36 sandro overtime to another meeting, needs to run, ciao all! # 19:36 cwebber2 eprodrom: look forward to talking to everyone in the CG tomorrow # 19:37 eprodrom tantek: thanks for chairing, one last time! # 19:37 Zakim As of this point the attendees have been aaronpk, sandro, rhiaro, eprodrom, ben_thatmustbeme, ajordan, tantek, cwebber RRSAgent left the channel
# 19:38 Loqi tantek has 76 karma in this channel (407 overall) KevinMarks joined the channel
# 19:41 ajordan hahahaha Evan left and then immediately went and pushed something to pump.io's database abstraction layer # 19:46 ajordan anyway I went looking for a gif of Leslie Knope saying "I have so many thoughts of feelings right now" but I couldn't find one, so oh well I guess? Zakim left the channel
# 22:04 Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed # 22:06 puckipedia cwebber2: hm, how does thgat system work? # 22:07 puckipedia voting, that is # 22:08 cwebber2 puckipedia: my knowledge of the process is limited to "if you're a paying w3c member, you can vote" :) # 22:08 puckipedia timespan, rquirements, etc? # 22:08 cwebber2 puckipedia: well the requirements are the entire process AP already went through # 22:08 puckipedia I mean, "at least 20% of members has to vote" or something # 22:09 cwebber2 timeline is... well it was put to Jan 2nd, but we realized in this meeting that the holidays and a bunch of other activity kind of drowned AP's PR vote out # 22:12 sandro Hey @all it turns out echidna CAN publish notes, so ... editors should just go ahead and do that when they're ready! tantek joined the channel
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# 23:49 tantek alright I'm filing an issue on respec. this is not my bug. # 23:58 Loqi [tantek] #1448 bug: respec artificially inflates heading level for no reason # 23:59 tantek gosh markdown defaults are so dumb. if I put an <h3> in the middle of some text inline, do you really think I want it to be an actual element? no. so markdown makes me pollute my readable plain text with backtick noise ``` ``` because it's too dumb to do the right thing # 23:59 Loqi markdown has -3 karma in this channel (-7 overall)
Gargron saranix: i feel like you underestimate the benefits of a changing key for every message
ajordan https://twitter.com/Hellchick/status/942863353403150336 feels relevant to this room
Loqi Aaronpk made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=105408&oldid=105278
ben_thatmustbeme in case i run a bit late today, no update on jf2, just need approval for NOTE
RRSAgent logging to https://www.w3.org/2017/12/19-social-irc
KevinMarks Not on the call but in irc
tantek note changes section: https://dissolve.github.io/jf2/#changes-from-26-oct-2017-wd-to-this-version
cwebber2 happy to see https://github.com/tantek/post-type-discovery/issues/9 has been done
@HongPong @Dries @davewiner everyone plz note there is now ActivityPub spec which creates more complex social media-ish feeds https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/ [ #mastodon + #GNUsocial ] & we have a basic #Webmention & pingback module here > https://drupal.org/project/linkback < #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/943223452357550080)
@dustyweb If you or someone you know are a representative for a W3C member, consider voting for ActivityPub to become a recommendation! https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/ (twitter.com/_/status/943238442086957057)