#social 2017-12-20

2017-12-20 UTC
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aaronpk sandro: I assume I need some staff intervention for the IndieAuth note since it was not previously a WD?
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tantek aaronpk I believe sandro was saying that ALL of our notes need staff intervention because echidna supposedly doesn't publish NOTEs
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tantek (but that was news to me)
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tantek hmm - wondering if we should have just resolved to publish WDs until then
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tantek since jf2, ptd, swp could all be editor updated with WDs til a w3c staff pulls a NOTE lever or something
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aaronpk I thought he literally just said it CAN be used for notes
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aaronpk https://chat.indieweb.org/social/2017-12-19/1513721534877700
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Loqi [sandro] Hey @all it turns out echidna CAN publish notes, so ... editors should just go ahead and do that when they're ready!
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tantek interesting ok
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tantek yes for a *new* publication, you need staff intervention
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tantek so I *was* right then :P
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aaronpk cwebber I might not make the call in the morning, I'm coming down with a cold and might be passed out
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cwebber2 next SocialCG meeting in just over an hour! https://www.w3.org/wiki/SocialCG/2017-12-20
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cwebber2 hope to see you there, * :)
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banjofox hi everyone
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eprodrom hey all
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cwebber2 hi!
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cwebber2 oh wait a minute
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cwebber2 is 15:00 UTC now?
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cwebber2 I thought it was in an hour
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banjofox hah XD
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cwebber2 ugh
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cwebber2 daylight savings threw me off
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cwebber2 well I'm connected but I sent out messages saying it'll be in an hour, erk
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cwebber2 I'll stick around
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cwebber2 eprodrom: BanjoFox: hi
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cwebber2 so, should we do this in an hour since that's what I told the fediverse / twitter? or do we want to do this now
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banjofox XD
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cwebber2 hey aaronpk
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cwebber2 you up / around?
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rowan hey y'all i don't mean to very interrupt your meeting but: what is the socialcg?
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cwebber2 rowan: it's ok, due to scheduling/timezone errors nobody is in the meeting right now ;)
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cwebber2 rowan: anyway the Social Community Group is a place that we discuss and collaborate on federated social web standards stuff
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rowan cwebber2: yeah that's why i figured i could ask :)
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rowan oh cool.
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rowan thanks!
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cwebber2 I hate daylight savings so much
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cwebber2 SO MUCH
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cwebber2 sigh
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cwebber2 nerdrants
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cwebber2 https://www.w3.org/community/socialcg/
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cwebber2 anyway!
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cwebber2 rowan: you should totally join!
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cwebber2 it's open to everyone
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cwebber2 and you're working on a federated social web application
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cwebber2 so that means you should join us :)
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rowan haha ok
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Loqi rofl
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eprodrom cwebber2: I'm trying to install a mumble client
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cwebber2 eprodrom: well, take your time... do you want to do a meeting in 45mins, since I think that's when people are actually going to show up? ;)
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cwebber2 eprodrom: they have nice android/ios clients too
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cwebber2 plumble is really good
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eprodrom That's fine with me
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cwebber2 eprodrom: cool, let's do it then
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cwebber2 rowan: want to join us?
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eprodrom :thumbsup:
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rowan suuuure yeah
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cwebber2 install a mumble client :)
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cwebber2 https://wiki.mumble.info/wiki/Mumble_clients
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cwebber2 available for every major OS!
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cwebber2 meeting details, aside from time, are here: https://www.w3.org/wiki/SocialCG/2017-12-20
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cwebber2 rowan: signup for a user here: https://www.w3.org/accounts/request then hit the "join this group" button on https://www.w3.org/community/socialcg/
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cwebber2 look forward to seeing you in the meeting :)
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rowan i did that bit, working on the mumble bit now
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cwebber2 cool... I'll be on 10 mins early if you want to do any audio testing
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cwebber2 now I'm gonna eat the breakfast I have sitting out before I rushed to my computer being like "oh no oh shit daylight savinggssssss" :)
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banjofox o.X
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banjofox sorry I just found myself upto my elbows in something else XD
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banjofox well shit... now that i KNOW mumble clients exist for Android I feel -obligated- to log in :P
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banjofox #Nopressure
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banjofox oh right... I was doing that mumble thing...
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cwebber2 puckipedia: ajordan: aaronpk: sandro: nightpool: melody: *pings usual suspects* ;)
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cwebber2 oh and Gargron
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cwebber2 oh and ben_thatmustbeme
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cwebber2 I'm sure I'm missing some... :)
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banjofox cwebber2: do I need an account for Mumble? >.>
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cwebber2 hey BanjoFox!
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banjofox >,>
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cwebber2 you don't need one
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banjofox I got the Plumble thing on my phone now XD
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cwebber2 instructions are here https://www.w3.org/wiki/SocialCG/2017-12-20
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banjofox Huzzah for bypassing own infosec tools! ... I mean... following exact company policies >.>
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cwebber2 :)
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aaronpk Sorry I can't join, super sick in bed right now. Tried to leave you a note last night
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cwebber2 aaronpk: oh no! hope you feel better
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eprodrom scribenick: eprodrom
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eprodrom Did we start?
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eprodrom cwebber2: since there are a lot of new people, we'll do introductions
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eprodrom cwebber2: I am co-chair
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eprodrom cwebber2: aaronpk is co-chair but sick
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eprodrom cwebber2: I am also co-editor of ActivityPub
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eprodrom BanjoFox: Independent infosec researcher
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eprodrom BanjoFox: started aardwolf
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eprodrom BanjoFox: aardwolf = federated Facebook
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eprodrom BanjoFox: Rust, ActivityPub
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cwebber2 scribenick: cwebber2
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eprodrom cwebber2, you can just scribe that as "hi I'm Evan"
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cwebber2 eprodrom: I'm Evan Prodromou, I'm original developer of StatusNet, Pump.io, one of the original authors of OStatus, one of the co-editors of ActivityStreams, and am co-author of ActivityPub. I've also been co-chair of the Social Web Working Group, which was kind of the predecessor to this group and the specs we're working on here
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eprodrom scribenick: eprodrom
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eprodrom melody: Main interest is in anti-harassment and anti-abuse
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eprodrom melody: here because I'm evaluating whether to use AP and whether it will meet needs
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eprodrom melody, that is FASCINATING
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eprodrom rowan: working on AP implementation, Smilodon server
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eprodrom q+
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cwebber2 eprodrom: rowan, I'd love to know what you're going to rename the sever to
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cwebber2 rowan: pylodon
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cwebber2 eprodrom: is it possible you can post an image of a pylodon so I can see what it is?
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cwebber2 rowan: I don't think it's a thing, it's just a pun on python and pylodon
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cwebber2 eprodrom: aw mannnnnn, I loved that theme... maybe a super giant...
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cwebber2 rowan: a giant python with super big teeth?
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cwebber2 eprodrom: a furred python
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cwebber2 BanjoFox: hit me up on Mastodon or IRC I will take care of this
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cwebber2 BanjoFox: if you haven't seen me on Mastodon I've been doing "Mastodon Classical Paintings" so I could probably pull this off
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eprodrom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megatherium <-- my fave
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eprodrom cwebber2: TOPIC SocialWG update
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eprodrom cwebber2: AP is up for REC, needs votes
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eprodrom cwebber2: WebSub will also go to REC
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eprodrom Notes: PTD, JF2, IndieAuth, Social Web Protocols
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cwebber2 eprodrom: we also published four notes, I think they were primarily on the IndieWeb spec; Post Type Discovery, JF2, IndieAuth, and finally Social Web Protocols, which is a "how to live in a world where we don't have one standard protocol"
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cwebber2 ack eprodrom
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cwebber2 q?
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cwebber2 trackbot, start meeting
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trackbot is preparing a teleconference.
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RRSAgent logging to https://www.w3.org/2017/12/20-social-irc
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trackbot RRSAgent, make logs public
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RRSAgent I have made the request, trackbot
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trackbot Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
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trackbot Date: 20 December 2017
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cwebber2 scribenick: eprodrom
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cwebber2 eprodrom: we're re-emerging into a more ad-hoc process, this is much more about getting things done rather than protocol meetings... so this is the fun part I think
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eprodrom present+
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cwebber2 present+
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melody present+
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rowan present+
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cwebber2 present+ BanjoFox
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cwebber2 q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 topic: Evan's exciting new ActivityPub projects
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cwebber2 scribenick: cwebber2
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cwebber2 eprodrom: yes! I've got a set of slides I'd like to share
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eprodrom http://slides.com/evanpro/tags-pub
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cwebber2 eprodrom: this is the first time I've talked about hte hashtag server process, so I've found it fairly interesting
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banjofox Back at my desk for a few minutes :D
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cwebber2 eprodrom: the ActivityPub network, if you think about it abstractly it's a web of people and groups and programs that are connected through a social graph that create and consume streams of activities
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cwebber2 eprodrom: that's the short and sweet version of what ActivityPub does
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cwebber2 eprodrom: hashtags, which are a pretty common model used on social networks, are a light categorization tool that allow us to track conversations outside our social graph. You can follow a person's post, but hashtags are useful as a general namespace, and it's very author-driven hashtag process
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cwebber2 eprodrom: the way most federated systems I've seen use hashtags is to have a local hashtag object
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cwebber2 eprodrom: for example the slide that shows the object with the hashtag that's on its same server
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cwebber2 eprodrom: this is how 90% of them work on the federated social web... the advantages are it's easy and it's distributed. the problem is that it's very fragmented... the serendipity of global conversations doesn't happen because conversations are focused around server rather than social network
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cwebber2 eprodrom: it also results in search functionality through also the hash tab
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cwebber2 *tag
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cwebber2 eprodrom: the more we had public stream hashtags, it caused more centralization on those server
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cwebber2 eprodrom: you get network effects that result in supernodes
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cwebber2 eprodrom: so if we move to a global hashtag server, instead of a hashtag that's on a local server you have a remote server, and in general people use the same servers
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cwebber2 eprodrom: then you also don't need to provide all this functionality on a single server, and you get global search
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cwebber2 eprodrom: so those conversations are no longer fragmented, they're in one place
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cwebber2 eprodrom: the con is centralization
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cwebber2 eprodrom: and any time you have a lot of activities going through a single point, there's also privacy issues
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cwebber2 eprodrom: today in 2017/2018 any hashtag in the server... there's a temptation as it grows
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cwebber2 eprodrom: tags.pub are interesting because they're first class AP objects... they have inboxes and etc and any time they receive an activity meeting certain criteria they'll reshare that activity
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cwebber2 eprodrom: any time they receive it they may reshare it, so if you're interested in #metoo or #blacklivesmatter or #rust, you can follow that hashtag, so you can get updates on a hashtag even if you don't follow that person directly because the hashtag shares that directly. so only thing devs have to do is also address the hashtag object. So when you have to: Public, you'd also ad to: hashtag.pub/...the-tag
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cwebber2 eprodrom: that'll distribute in a way that makes sense
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cwebber2 eprodrom: if you look at what a tags.pub object looks like, it has inbox/outbox/following/followers, has a public key for http signatures, and it has a liked collection even though it's an empty object
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cwebber2 eprodrom: so it looks like a person object
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cwebber2 eprodrom: seems to work nicely, seems to work, but does it cause a centralization issue? how can we mitigate the centralization? the main way we do that is by having a back plane of redistributing tag objects. So the trick here is that the tags.pub server is an AS2 object like any object. it also has inbox/outbox/followers/following, and just as any hashtag can reshare any object, the server itself can reshare public content
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cwebber2 eprodrom: so it looks like a firehose pushing out anything publicly addressed sent to the server
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cwebber2 eprodrom: that lets us set up a network of interrelated hashtag servers that can share all content that comes to them
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cwebber2 eprodrom: so I think this is like an NNTP (?) server that can share, and other servers can reshare ones that are tagged, even if on another server
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cwebber2 eprodrom: it's an ok scalable system, can maybe scale to dozens/hundreds/maybe thousands of servers
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cwebber2 eprodrom: there's some issues with id comparison failing
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cwebber2 ?
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cwebber2 eprodrom: but if we get to the point where it's not scaling that's fine(?)
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cwebber2 eprodrom: so if developers aren't using this model, we're not getting in the local hashtag data... we can look for ways to get that too
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cwebber2 eprodrom: I think this is a healthy pattern for the AP network so I have a couple of other slidedecks I'm going to be doing along the same lines
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cwebber2 eprodrom: places.pub is for location objects, and I'm looking at puttting Musicbrainz vocbualry with a music.pub or etc, don't have a good domain yet but similar pattern of having objects and having them rebroadcastable and also public
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eprodrom https://tags.pub/ https://gitlab.com/evanp/tags-pub
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cwebber2 eprodrom: if you're interested in this project, I have links to tags.pub or to gitlab codebase
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cwebber2 eprodrom: any questions? I kind of burned right through this
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banjofox I don't have any questions ;)
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eprodrom Thanks!
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eprodrom cwebber2: Any interesting design challenges while going through this?
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cwebber2 eprodrom: there were a couple of things that were difficult.. getting this design down in a way that made sense was interesting, once I realized that any object on the AP network can be a first class citizen, it makes a lot of other patterns really interesting... being able to do this pattern between servers is really cool, and it works right out of ActivityPub. that's been a tricky part
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eprodrom https://gitlab.com/evanp/activitypub-mock
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cwebber2 eprodrom: also I did the implementation in node.js, and testing any of this stuff is really complicated... I actually spent quite a lot of time working on a mock server that implements activitypub in order to be able to test server to server and client to server functionality
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cwebber2 eprodrom: so that's the other part of it... we're at an early time with AS2 and AP, and a lot of the infrastructure we need isn't quite there yet. So a lot of the implementors in 2018 I think that'll be a lot of it... is there an AS2 library in Go? is there an AP server/framework in Ruby? A lot of us will be building those things up in 2018 and that'll make building easier in 2019
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cwebber2 BanjoFox: how do we connect contributors?
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cwebber2 cwebber2: I think rowan, you're doing in Python and collaborating with other users right?
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cwebber2 cwebber2: and I think that's part of the SocialCG's space
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cwebber2 rowan: yes, Mastodon is doing Ruby, I'm collaborating on some with Python, sometimes it's hard to find others, and IRC has been useful enough... and I was fortunate enough to know Shel and met cwebber that way
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cwebber2 BanjoFox: question for me is, is there a current list of people more or less that have raised their hand and said "hey ActivityPub is really cool, I'm doing an implementation in XYZ language"
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cwebber2 rowan: gotcha... there's the implementation reports page
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cwebber2 https://activitypub.rocks/implementation-report/
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eprodrom cwebber2: languages are listed at the bottom
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eprodrom cwebber2: it's not a complete answer, since people aren't ready to do IRs if they don't have everything ready
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eprodrom q+
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Zakim sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 ack eprodrom
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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melody q+
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Zakim sees melody on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 eprodrom: I was going to suggest maybe have something on activitypub.rocks that's a "here's your links to libraries in different languages"... that would be a quick way to get people started, and that page could also link to "here are the languages we don't have an impleemntation of... if you want to do a PHP based system would be huge, or a drupal system or a wordpress system... those would be a big help, and flagging them out would be
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cwebber2 a "bounty for glory" type thing
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eprodrom BanjoFox: I'm primarily interested in how we build things out with Rust
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cwebber2 BanjoFox: I got it... my specific interest is in the Aardworlf project and I'd have to ask them where we are at this point... at this point I've written a couple small projects in Rust, so to your point I saw the implementation report and say "that's great... we're working on it?"
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eprodrom Unfortunately I need to leave...
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eprodrom Thanks all!
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cwebber2 BanjoFox: I'm not sure what the implementation report is supposed to be, but I'm kind of a head hunter for the people who are there
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cwebber2 eprodrom: thank you for coming!
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eprodrom I'll be here in 2 weeks. This is where the fun is.
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cwebber2 :)
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cwebber2 BanjoFox: how do I find folks who may be interested in coming then
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eprodrom cwebber2: if I were to write up a Getting Started page, how would I get it added to activitypub.rocks ?
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cwebber2 cwebber2: I can start putting together that page on activitypub.rocks
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cwebber2 melody: is there a distinction between applications and libraries?
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cwebber2 melody: if you wanted to do a Ruby implementation of AP, Mastodon isn't a great start because it has so many other things, so maybe we should have a distinction between libraries vs full "tool" applications
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cwebber2 rowan: sounds like an important distinction to me, and is why I started on my project
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cwebber2 BanjoFox: we're defining a library as the core code to add to the application
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cwebber2 eprodrom, it's here https://gitlab.com/dustyweb/activitypub.rocks
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cwebber2 https://gitlab.com/dustyweb/activitypub.rocks/blob/master/haunt.scm
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cwebber2 melody: I'm looking at what useful distinctions might be for organizing this
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cwebber2 eprodrom but if you want to start writing up text
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cwebber2 and don't want to learn that page, just send me the text
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cwebber2 and I'll get it incorporated
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cwebber2 cwebber2: I'm working on porting my stuff to Racket, and also rowan you and I should collaborate on ActiviPy
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cwebber2 cwebber2: regarding errata, the SocialCG will be taking that on but I think we need people more familiar with the W3C process in order to make progress on that in the meeting
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cwebber2 cwebber2: and on that note, good meeting everyone, see you next time!
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cwebber2 trackbot, end meeting
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Zakim As of this point the attendees have been eprodrom, cwebber, melody, rowan, BanjoFox
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trackbot is ending a teleconference.
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trackbot Zakim, list attendees
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trackbot RRSAgent, please draft minutes
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RRSAgent I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2017/12/20-social-minutes.html trackbot
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trackbot RRSAgent, bye
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RRSAgent I see no action items
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banjofox XD
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Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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Loqi bye
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puckipedia https://vulpine.club/users/kellerfuchs/statuses/99207707751666402 this is exactly what I tested already haha
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Loqi [Kabuki Fox & security theater] @cwebber @banjofox Eh, I still haven't done /anything/. *needs to poke @puckipedia about evil evil ideas re: multi-tenancy and cost-efficient instances.*
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Loqi hehe
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puckipedia boop
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cwebber2 beep
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saranix bzzt
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banjofox blorp
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cwebber2 :)
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banjofox so yeah... apparently my project is a real thing now LOL ... we even have a (Jekyl-powered) landing page !
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banjofox now If only I could remember what I was supposed to do at $daygig today... LOL
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xmpp-social [ajordan] Oh hey I meant to say this earlier but so sorry I missed the telecon
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xmpp-social [ajordan] I too am sick and I have a final exam tomorrow so I elected to continue sleeping
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xmpp-social [ajordan] I'm really bummed I missed Evan's presentation though, I was really looking forward to it :(
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puckipedia cwebber2: ping?
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puckipedia mmm, nvm
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cwebber2 puckipedia: pong, in case you still want to talk about something
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puckipedia I found a mastodon bug and had to test it against someone
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puckipedia foudn someone else instead :P
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puckipedia it's a security vuln even lol
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cwebber2 puckipedia: whuhoh
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cwebber2 maybe ping Gargron or nightpool
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puckipedia yeah, going to send Gargron a DM
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xmpp-social [ajordan] Aaawkward
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puckipedia waiting for a screenshot
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puckipedia (as I'm not running Mastodon myself)
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puckipedia https://i.imgur.com/lEbg6rJ.png
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puckipedia return of the spinny text
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cwebber2 puckipedia: LOL
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puckipedia I have dubbed it "return of the spinny text"