#social 2019-10-09
2019-10-09 UTC
lanodan, puck, xmpp-social, achim[m], KjetilK, KjetilK_, BitBot and dmitriz joined the channel
# 
jesopo meeting today?
# jesopo just looked at the wiki
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# hellekin yes!
# hellekin related topic on SocialHub is at https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/online-meeting-2019-10-09/63
# hellekin I updated the https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/last-tasks-before-launch/78 with the exhaustive list of topics that need love: if we can get a handful of people to step up, we can launch today.
# jesopo holá
# melody people can't step up if they can't get in because you haven't launched
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# kaniini for whatever reason i never got around to adding this when i switched to quassel
# kaniini oh well, fixed
# nightpool[m] probably because in march you said you were boycotting this channel, and haven't been back since
# jesopo i prefer personcott
# kaniini which march
# jesopo of the penguins
# hellekin melody: we have launched among the people present at APConf, and we have launched with this group here. You can be invited, but I need to know what email you want to use (pm).
# hellekin anyone on this channel can request early access to https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/ if they want to add their software of help around.
# hellekin s/of/or
# kaniini nightpool[m]: well i do not wish to rehash old conflict, but suffice it to say that the situation has evolved since then
# hellekin kaniini: you're welcome. I hope this is an agonist space, where differences can be listened to and heard.
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# kaniini that is what it is -- now, when litepub was started, this group was extremely biased toward JSON-LD and other semantic web technology, and also biased toward theory instead of what is actually happening in production. but, in many cases, both sides are able to work together and collaborate.
# hellekin It would be useful to have a litepub discussion on SocialHub kaniini, if you want to lead it.
# kaniini what the philosophical difference is (was?) is simple -- the litepub group want to incrementally move the protocol toward correctness in tangible ways. in my opinion, APconf marked a reset, because most of the proposals were about incremental fixes that are actually accomplishable
# kaniini (but litepub will continue to be a vendor-first group, focused on real-world development of the activitypub protocol)
# nightpool[m] ```
# kaniini i think, ultimately, everyone in both groups want the same thing. a fediverse with robust, easily understood security properties
# hellekin kaniini: It would be useful to have a litepub discussion on SocialHub kaniini, if you want to lead it.
# kaniini the fact that members of the litepub group and the SocialCG have been (and continue to) collaborate on issues like OCAP show this imo :)
# kaniini hellekin: maybe. i don't know, i have a lot on my plate right now
# hellekin everybody has. It's a matter of organizing collectively.
# nightpool[m] stepping aside from this discussion for a minute, these are the steps to start the meeting with proper minutes:
# nightpool[m] sent a long message: nightpool[m]_2019-10-09_14:33:00.txt <https://matrix.cybre.space/_matrix/media/v1/download/cybre.space/JzUzJhTNoqWfhrZUAMiRvlWG>
# nightpool[m] (hopefully that comes through okay on IRC)
# nightpool[m] if not you can view the formatted version here: https://matrix.to/#/!GwINGSasznCfuVLHqd:cybre.space/$15706315807302XsowZ:cybre.space?via=cybre.space&via=matrix.org&via=feneas.org
# jesopo apropos of nothing, is there any docs of what html can be expected to be found in a Note?
# kaniini you should expect *any* html in a note and strip it to what you are willing to support
# jesopo right
# jesopo what things are common
# jesopo <p> ofc
# jesopo <br>?
# kaniini one sec.
# jesopo <em>, <s>, ?
# jesopo oki
# jesopo gotta do html->irc translation for them :|
# kaniini https://git.pleroma.social/pleroma/pleroma/blob/develop/lib/pleroma/html.ex#L101 this roughly matches what mastodon accepts.
# kaniini https://git.pleroma.social/pleroma/pleroma/blob/develop/lib/pleroma/html.ex#L160 is what is accepted by pleroma, friendica, hubzilla and some others
# bengo jesopo: `curl -H "Accept: application/json" https://distbin.com/activitypub/public` will give you 971 'Create Note' activity examples
# jesopo brill, thanks
# jesopo kaniini: ty
# jesopo i thought masto doesn't do markdown? got a toot sent from Tusky to masto that has _underline_ in the `content` and `contentMap` just have it as raw _ _ and the masto web ui do the underline correctly?
# jesopo or does masto support a small subset of markdown
# jesopo soz, lotta dumb Qs ;P
# kaniini my actually good headset is packed away, so i apologize for potato quality
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# kaniini jesopo: some mastodon forks use text formatting -- glitch and pleroma worked on the extension to mastodon api together
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# 
RRSAgent logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/10/09-social-irc
# bengo I can scribe
# bengo cwebber2: Let's start. First topic is I'd said I'd reach out about evergreen spec stuff. I've been busy and haven't been able to, but hopefully will be next meeting.
# bengo hellekin: Status update: there are a number of tasks before launch, e.g. creating categories, but we can make them later.
# bengo hellekin: nightpool is now an admin btw
# bengo hellekin: We still have a few topics to fill on datashards, OCAP, relationsihp between ActivityPub SIG and SocialCG
# bengo hellekin: We are ready to launch any time, but we can also wait a bit longer for cwebber2 and serge to start nice topics
# bengo hellekin: There is a poll about whether to launch or wait ^
# bengo hellekin: We need more people to get involved and fill more roles, so we have a team and no one person burns out. Other than that, it's pretty much ready.
# bengo cwebber2: Explaining if people want attention to type 'q+'
# bengo cwebber2: hellekin are you talking about the ActivityPub W3C CG, chaired by Evan?
# sl007 Prague session https://redaktor.me/pad/p/community
# bengo hellekin: No I'm referring to the discussion we had in Prague about what the role of this socialhub.activitypub.rocks forum would be.
# bengo cwebber2: Got it. The reason I was unsure is because all before ActivityPub was worked on by w3c SocialWG, Evan had made a w3c cg called ActivityPub. Nevermind then.
# bengo cwebber2: The general conversation we had in Prague was that this SocialCG maintains more than just ActivityPub
# bengo cwebber2: But we discussed it could be useful to have a more detailed collaboration space for ActivityPub since there is no SocialCG mailing list, and in there ideas related to ActivityPub could be discussed and percolate, and then could be brought to SocialCG.
# bengo cwebber2: I am A+ in on that. We could do a vote to give socialhub an official purpose, but I'm not sure it's needed.
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# bengo emacsen: I was at this discussion, but didn't fully have the background. I request a quick clarification because datashards came up.
# kaniini (that was Pleroma, but not me directly)
# sl007 q+
# bengo emacsen: Datashards isn't an AP protocol, but there are some AP implementors eager to integrate datashards into their projects. But that's a separate activity from AP. So is datashards discussion allowed/encouraged on socialhub.activitypub.rocks
# bengo cwebber2: 1) socialhub.activitypub.rocks is going to be "the" AP forum and sicuss issues, then raise important topics to SocialCG as needed.
# bengo cwebber2: 2) The people running socialhub, including hellekin and nightpool[m] want to bootstrap the forum with topics of interest to AP community before opening it to general public
# hellekin +1
# bengo cwebber2: One topic might be OCAP w/ AP, another might be Datashards w/ AP.
# bengo sl007: As hellikin already wrote on the forum, discourse will eventually implement AP, so the forum will be federated via AP. Also wrt datashards, there are categories in the forum, so to discuss datashards you could use #fediverse tag.
# bengo sl007: In general the forum is interesting for all kinds of 'fediverse' people, so it would be useful to have a summary of datashards there.
# bengo cwebber2: I think emacsen and I should have a conversation offline about getting this stuff going on the forum. I could use help since I'm timestrapped, emacsen is too. So emacsen and I should coordinate offline ASAP after call.
# bengo cwebber2: hellekin there has been a question about when forum is open to public. Do you want to respond to that?
# bengo hellekin: There is a poll in the forum. nightpool[m] and I think we're ready to go. Other, we're not sure. We have options: e.g. 15th of October fixed date.
# bengo hellekin: I'm okay with going as we are and launching right now.
# bengo proposal... launch socialhub.activitypub.rocks right now
# bengo cwebber2: My personal attitude is 'release early, release often'
# bengo cwebber2: But I leave it up to forum admins
# hellekin q+
# kaniini (i can't see what is on it, as i haven't asked for an account yet)
# bengo hellekin: Melody earlier didn't ask for invitation, but was wondering why people here couldn't participate
# bengo q+
# kaniini i couldn't hear any of that
# bengo +1
# rigelk +1
# sl007 +1
# hellekin +1
# jesopo +1
# bengo cwebber2: You can type +1 if you are in favor. -1 if you are against. or +0, 0, -0 if youa re wishy washy
# kaniini +1
# hellekin it's online :)
# bengo cwebber2: Let us enjoy having the liveness of it
# bengo cwebber2: <claps>
# bengo cwebber2: I realize we have some people who are new to the call. It's a tradition to have everyone introduce themselves.
# bengo emacsen: Hi I'm serge (emacsen). This is my second call. Im very interested in AP, no current implementations, but I hope to soon. And I'm interested in tangentially related technologies like datashards
# bengo hellekin: Hi I'm Hellikin. I run a nonprofit in Brussels caled petit singularity (?). I've been catherding, and work for a nonprofit that helps fund free software like ActivityPub
# jesopo I'm jess. this is my second meeting. communication protocol nerd and writing a AP server implementation in an IRC that almost federates!
# jesopo got the name bang on cwebber2
# jesopo je so po
# hellekin Petites Singularités participates in the NGI0 consortium (see https://nlnet.nl/discovery)
# bengo kaniini: Hi. I'm me, kaniini. I work on Pleroma. I've also worked on Mastodon in the past. And also GNU Social very very very long time ago.
# bengo kaniini: I also started the litepub group, which is kind of like the opposite of the SocialCG.
# bengo melody: I'm melody. I'm working with a small team at my cooperative on potential AP implementation. I'm mostly concerned with anti-harassment and anti-abuse online.
# hellekin melody: you're super welcome to the well-being.team :)
# bengo rigelk: I'm rigelk. I'm working at a University in the East of France on Olki, a social platform for scientists that federates
# bengo sebi: Hi this is Sebastian. You might know me from the Prague conference. Aside from that I'm doing redaktor, a multimedia CMS that is based on ActivityPub. I'm trying to push self-hosting.
# bengo sebi: You can read about this in the forum's software category. Before, I worked as a photojournalist for 20 years, but unfortunately my camera sank to the Pacific ocean.
# bengo sl007: I posted some grants on the forum. If you want to help with redaktor it uses TypeScript, node.js
# bengo (hope sl007 is sedi)
# jesopo present+
# melody present+
# hellekin present+
# rigelk present+
# bengo cwebber2: I forgot another thing to start the meeting with the bot. we need to type 'present+' if you are present
# bengo present+
# sl007 present+
# bengo cwebber2: That way the logs will pick you up as having attended the meeting
# kaniini present+
# bengo cwebber2: Let's move forward to next topic: "Issue Triage from GitHub". First I want to talk about how we deal with it.
# hellekin Agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/SocialCG/2019-10-09#Topics
# bengo cwebber2: We've handled github issues in other groups. We usually ask people to raise issues ahead of time, and if they don't, we just go through the tortuous process of going one by one
# bengo cwebber2: Im interested in the metaconversation about how to handle these. The W3C Wiki is hard to edit for everyone and add topics to the meeting page
# bengo cwebber2: So I wonder if there is another way to raise issues to the group. Maybe we could have a thread before the meetings, including issues.
# bengo q+
# kaniini q+
# hellekin q+
# bengo q?
# bengo kaniini: One of the larger frustrations I've noticed amongst implementors who try to interact with the SocialCG (which led to litepub becoming a thing)
# bengo kaniini: Traditionally there have been these meetings that people go to every once in awhile. People are supposed to open a GitHub issue. But then there are no facts or figures about when consensus is going to be reached.
# bengo kaniini: e.g. someone files a bug, but there is never a response like 'we will discuss this issue at this time'
# bengo kaniini: Now that there is this socialhub forum, I think that's a better way to go. What you can do is to create the issue on GitHub, which tracks the issue. Then we can have a corresponding discussion on the forum that references it.
# bengo kaniini: That way there is a paper trail about what has been discussed, when consensus is made, and that way the entire reasoning behind each conslusion is clearly documented.
# bengo kaniini: If we can leverage socialhub to coordinate how issues are addressed, I think that would be optimal.
# bengo hellekin: I want to add to that. Discourse comes with GitHub integration. It's possible to allow discourse to write into GitHub
# rigelk +1 hellekin
# bengo cwebber2: For me, socialhub.activitypub.rocks hopefully points to a much happier future for the issue tracker.
# bengo cwebber2: I think we do want to aim for 'issues zero' and address/resolve all issues in some way
# bengo cwebber2: (as an ideal, if not in practice)
# bengo cwebber2: I think it was a mistake in this community that we kind of said 'now that the specs done, the issue tracker is both for discussion and issues we want resolved in the spec'
# bengo cwebber2: It made it very hard to sort through issues that need action vs open places for discussion
# kaniini +q
# bengo cwebber2: Now we have a big opportunity with socialhub forum to move not-actionable discussions to the forum. Before we worry about issue-zero, we should try to dequeue all conversational issues and move them to socialhub.activitypub.rocks
# bengo cwebber2: I think it would be a clean separation
# bengo cwebber2: It would be helpful to have volunteers to filter open issues and identify conversational ones that might be best moved to the forum
# bengo kaniini: As implementors of large deployments of AP (e.g. Mastodon/Pleroma), we have at times attempted to engage the SocialCG for guidance, and it's basically crickets. Some issues are more urgently actioned than others.
# sl007 q+
# bengo kaniini: I'd like there to be an 'urgent, actionable' status on these issues.
# bengo kaniini: Sometimes when we've engaged the socialcg for guidance, it's because we have ongoing problems.
# bengo kaniini: which means that we have users that are rightly angry because there is some defect in the way that the federated network works.
# bengo kaniini: ocap, key rotation are things we're pushing for because people are asking for answers.
# bengo kaniini: Ultimately what we need is some workflow for urgent items.
# bengo kaniini: The best thing we could get out of socialcg is support for getting these things accomplished.
# bengo q+
# bengo kaniini: In liu of that support, we sometimes resort to quick-fixes. And having a priority queue would help us avoid quick fixes.
# bengo cwebber2: I think you're right that socialcg has not been the most responsive to issues people want to address. In some ways it's possible for the community to help us do better. You're right there could be better workflow, which we could discuss on the forum.
# bengo cwebber2: Here is my interim workflow proposal: If it's a conversational issue, post on socialhub.activitypub.rocks. It's an issue with a spec, raise it on the issue tracker.
# bengo cwebber2: If one of those things looks like we need to have a conversation, raising it for these calls would be helpful, and say that explicitly so it gets on the agenda.
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# bengo cwebber2: We've had these meetings in the past, and the agendas are empty. I think not being able to edit the wiki has been a barrier. But we can work around that with people saying on issues or forum posts as 'please put on agenda for next call'
# bengo cwebber2 +1
# bengo cwebber2: Was that a sufficient response kaniini ?
# bengo kaniini: yeah i think we're on the same page. As long as there's a workflow for something when things are on fire we need a solution now.
# bengo kaniini: Traditionally we haven't had that.
# bengo cwebber2: Let's work on it
# bengo hopes sebi is sl007
# jesopo where's the issue tracker?
# kaniini +q
# jesopo thanks
# bengo kaniini: I agree many issues aren't actionable. That's one thing that makes litepub group different from socialcg. It's more close-door, but when we release something it's more in the form of a full specification.
# bengo kaniini: That's kind of due to the background of how that group formed. But I think we can document a lot of what we've learned in litepub (e.g. how to write a good specification), and that help us move toward actionable specification on the issue tracker. Like how IETF does RFCs
# bengo kaniini: I think if we can shift toward that model for SocialCG, it could be really productive
# bengo kaniini +1
# bengo kaniini: (without the closed-door aspect)
# bengo cwebber2: closed-door wrt socialcg or litepub?
# bengo kaniini: litepub. The way litepub has made most specs, some developers in the group get together, talk privately, and someone makes a spec (usually me)
# bengo kaniini: e.g. pixelfed and pleroma work well on many topics. Mostly because we get together, bang out interop, and release something
# bengo kaniini: That's how our work on OCAP got released
# bengo kaniini: That's what I mean about closed-door: one or two people get together and bang out a draft and get it done
# bengo kaniini: socialcg seems to be the opposite: conversation, consensus, etc. I think we need the best of both worlds.
# sl007 [lost connection]
# sl007 did i understand right that implementations having most users should
# sl007 I do understand the anger of "great implementations"
# sl007 First off and don't get me wrong
# sl007 be treated first?
# bengo kaniini: COnversation and consensus discussions a solid draft, not vague ideas.
# sl007 then it raises a broader question to me which is about democracy
# sl007 base democracy is important for the AP community.
# sl007 [ the same than with one very great very white man currently ]
# sl007 I just mean : Diversity means to put weaker on the same level and
# sl007 And we should treat Issues important for protocol itself first …
# bengo kaniini: There are people who come in and are idea people, but someone also has to turn ideas into specs. If you let idea people dominate the conversation without having actual spec-work, without being able to prove things out in an actual document that has revision/thought-process, then you ultimately hit the ground but the wheels are spinning instead of actual traction
# bengo kaniini: What I think is necessary is balance between ideas and hardened polished drafts.
# bengo kaniini: I think that socialhub could come into that. What we can do is have threads on socialhub for ideas. Then people who know how to turn ideas into specifications can do so.
# bengo cwebber2: <encourages to look above at what sl007 typed>
# kaniini +q
# bengo cwebber2: I think the call to make things more actionable is being said all around. Sounds like there in consensus. And that everyone also wants a place for conversations.
# hellekin https://github.com/swicg/general/issues
# hellekin cwebber2: I would help, but need access to the repo
# bengo cwebber2: Any volunteers to identify conversational issues and propose they be moved to the socialhub forum
# hellekin cwebber2: for Oauth access from Discourse
# bengo Can we start a socialhub forum thread for a megaproposal to close a list of github issues an dencourage refiling as forum threads? People can then raise concerns (if any) and we can vote all at once
# bengo kaniini: I want to address what sl007 said about democracy
# hellekin bengo: sure
# bengo kaniini: In practice I agree. But also we're trying to make something that people depend on in the real world. So a balance is necessary. Can't have complete democracy without the actual userbase [having a say].
# hellekin bengo: you may paste the URL to the issues list on Github in the topic title, then describe the topic. There's a #todo tag ;)
# bengo kaniini: Implementations of all sizes and maturity level should be equally at the table. At the same time, when you have bad actors in the fediverse going around harassing people utilizing security vulnerabilities in the design of the protocol or caused by unclearness, I do believe that those issues do need more urgent triage
# bengo kaniini: Because the fediverse is based on trust, but if users cannot trust that their data is being processed in a secure way, then there is no fediverse anymore. Or maybe there is, but people wont use it if they don't trust it.
# sl007 About "security issues" is what I would strongly consider as "we should treat Issues important for protocol itself first …"
# bengo kaniini: In terms of implementations needing to come to consensus on an extension, I think they can just follow the new socialcg process we're working on.
# hellekin kaniini: do you think we need a private space to discuss these security issues urgently?
# bengo +1
# kaniini +1
# sl007 q+
# rigelk +1
# hellekin +1
# melody +1
# sl007 +1
# jesopo +1
# kaniini hellekin: i don't. because by the time these security issues are being discussed, they are likely being exploited in the wild already
# sl007 q-
# hellekin sounds good to me
# bengo emacsen: To volunteer to help triage issues, should I coordinate with hellekin
# bengo cwebber2: Yeah and bengo
# kaniini (and besides, there is litepub group for mature implementations to privately discuss security matters)
# bengo cwebber2: We had a discussion about litepub how and how to work on specs and stuff, and think we might continue that discussion in next meeting. For now let's talk scheduling next meeting
# bengo cwebber2: A couple weeks ago we discussed doing this every other week, not just monthly.
# bengo cwebber2: We had also discussed switching between wednesdays and saturdays. Because some people can't make some days
# bengo cwebber2: I'd like a vote on those topics
# bengo +1
# rigelk +1
# jesopo +1
# hellekin ¿1
# kaniini +1
# sl007 +1
# hellekin +1
# jesopo i think hellekin was aiming for some kinda cheat code
# hellekin yeah, wrong keymap :P
# hellekin +1
# bengo -0
# jesopo +0
# rigelk +1
# sl007 +1
# jesopo might be more palatable if there were a reminder system
# kaniini +0
# melody +0
# rigelk jesopo, there are now events on the forum
# jesopo does that send out emails?
# jesopo or so
# hellekin if we put the meetings on socialhub, there's an agenda
# rigelk not that I know of - hellekin ?
# bengo cwebber2: This raises a meta-conversation about how do we schedule meetings in the future across wiki/forum/irc.
# hellekin https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/c/meeting/socialcg/l/agenda only shows upcoming meetings
# bengo cwebber2: Let's discuss later. Until then, people should feel free to propose topics on the forum, and I will move them to the wiki
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# kaniini i would also like to see a working group established for security / anti-abuse concerns (and mitigation) in the protocol itself
# RRSAgent I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/10/09-social-minutes.html cwebber2
# kaniini for example, spam is a serious problem right now
# bengo rigelk: Historically, there are 'topics' section on this wiki (if you have an account): https://www.w3.org/wiki/SocialCG/2019-10-09
# lain_soykaf *amateur and rare porn lover liked this*
# jesopo um
# kaniini lain_soykaf: well, that spam issue is pretty easily resolved by just blocking sinblr/humblr ;)
# 
cwebber2 created next meeting page: https://www.w3.org/wiki/SocialCG/2019-10-09
# kaniini hellekin: how do i get this pleroma swag that lanodan has on socialhub?
# kaniini Sorry, Insufficient Access Privileges
# kaniini :)
# cwebber2 I put up https://www.w3.org/wiki/SocialCG/2019-10-09/minutes based on my irc logs again because insufficient access privileges :P
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# bengo cwebber2: I missed discussion last week about 'evergreen' spec status. If there isn't already a forum post about it, will you please make one?
# kaniini hellekin: ping again about socialhub pleroma forum thingy
# kaniini (:
# hellekin kaniini: I'm on it
# hellekin kaniini: you got it
# kaniini thx
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# hi hello!
# hi is https://test.activitypub.rocks broken?
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