#wordpress 2018-03-23
2018-03-23 UTC
# 
chrisaldrich GWG: sure? same Bat-time? Same Bat-channel?
# chrisaldrich Sunday evening around 6ish I think?
# chrisaldrich Perhaps the Facebook story with a bit of https://medium.com/@anildash/the-missing-building-blocks-of-the-web-3fa490ae5cbc and similar articles thrown in?
# chrisaldrich Could be an interesting way to have a "motivation" discussion for "why indieweb" with some building blocks convo.
# chrisaldrich we're on the same page...
tantek, [eddie], ben_thatmustbeme, j12t_ and [jeremycherfas] joined the channel
# 
[jeremycherfas] !tell GWG chrisaldrich Can you please try and balance the volume on the two channels a bit better. David too soft, Chris too loud. Relatively speaking.
chrisaldrich joined the channel
# chrisaldrich Thanks Jeremy. The overall levels seemed a tad low to me as well. It was tough to bluetooth into the car and have the volume high enough to hear over road noise and the heater.
# chrisaldrich it would help if I had a view on the levels to better modulate my end, but alas....
[asuh] joined the channel
# chrisaldrich How do you mean that asuh?
# 
[asuh] and it has a link URL: http://boffosocko.com/type/link/
# chrisaldrich I'm using a mixture of both WordPress's Post Formats (which uses the taxonomy "type") in addition to the Post Kinds which uses the taxonomy /kind/
# chrisaldrich It gives me some additional ways for providing data and feeds for various types of content.
# chrisaldrich Thus you can subscribe to the link you just gave as a broader category of "linkblog" but it will include the Post Kinds for reads, likes, favorites, bookmarks and follows
# chrisaldrich Post Kinds tries to make an intelligent guess and auto sets the Post Format for each Kind. (You can modify the setting within the code though I think most people will agree with the general choices that were made.)
# chrisaldrich I also have some of the taxonomy duplicated as categories as well for an additional layer of meta data choice.
# chrisaldrich eventually I want to hide some of the taxonomy, but I've left it all visible for now.
# chrisaldrich If you know how post formats and post kinds work you can use it to extract out really custom RSS feeds from my site for just about any sub-category of posts you'd like to get.
# chrisaldrich My home page has a "feed" called Food diary which is just a conglomeration of the food and drink Post Kinds.
# chrisaldrich my main /blog/ should be the firehose of everything if I recall correctly, but I think that's the equivalent of what you've said.
# chrisaldrich At one point I used to have a plugin that filtered out likes and checkins, but I don't think it does that at present.
# chrisaldrich As a comparison you can look at snarfed.org. He's filtering out a lot of content from showing on his front page and keeps archive pages for others.
# chrisaldrich All my "notes" and "articles" (via Post Kinds) should show up under the /blog/ stream too. The meta block with the author/date/time/etc. will indicate what Post Format and then under that will usually also indicate which Kind they are as well.
# chrisaldrich but Post kinds gives you views for all your notes with the pre-defined URL /kind/note/ or /kind/article/
# chrisaldrich so you could have one or more of those show as your primary "blog" feed depending on what you want to show visitors.
# chrisaldrich They're just two different types of taxonomy. One is much bigger than another.
# chrisaldrich david.shanske.com as an example has a customized version of the 2016 theme that completely disables Post Formats from WP core and relies entirely on Post Kinds and its taxonomy.
# chrisaldrich theoretically, yes, but since Post Formats is a smaller set the mapping isn't both one-to-one and onto
# chrisaldrich no, the other way, it wouldn't have /type/image/, it would only have /kind/photo/
# chrisaldrich I'll take it back, https://david.shanske.com/type/image/ does have images and it's a result of WP core functionality though Post Formats aren't specifically supported in the theme
# chrisaldrich Potentially not, but only those who are looking VERY closely would likely notice.
# chrisaldrich I've tried to explain some of the differences here: http://boffosocko.com/2017/08/11/post-kinds-plugin-for-wordpress/
# chrisaldrich Over time I've been moving away from using the built in Post Formats in WP core and relying more and more on Post Kinds.
# chrisaldrich I think WordPress in general has also been moving away from Post Formats as a community though many themes still support them to some extent.
# chrisaldrich in some sense the Post Formats 'aside' and 'status update' are nearly identical or relatively indistinguishable and both are roughly equivalent to Post Kind's 'note'
# chrisaldrich that's one of the places they diverge generally...
# chrisaldrich If you're using a theme that has both, you can go into it and remove the support for one or the other so that only one shows up in your admin UI and it's less an issue.
# chrisaldrich Here's the section of Post Kind's code that auto defines the corresponding Post Formats if you want to change them in your particular install: https://github.com/dshanske/indieweb-post-kinds/blob/master/includes/class-kind-taxonomy.php#L210
# chrisaldrich you'll notice 'article' is empty which corresponds typically to the 'standard' format while 'note' corresponds with 'aside'
# chrisaldrich If it's easier to not worry, you can go to 'screen options' in the upper right of the admin UI and deselect the 'Format' option and it will quit displaying that meta box for you.
# chrisaldrich There are pros/cons to doing that, particularly if someone switches between themes regularly or is just trying out Post Kinds without having bought into it completely.
# chrisaldrich The rare times I'll make a change in the auto-setting that Post Kinds does is for something like 'listen' which sets a Post Format of 'audio'. If my post doesn't have an audio file in it, I'll change it to either 'status' or 'link' as I feel appropriate.
# chrisaldrich The odd part is that not all themes provide support for Post Kinds and some that do only support a small subset of them and not all.
# chrisaldrich At least Post Kinds has a reasonable default display for all the kinds that one chooses to enable.
# [asuh] One of the bigger challenges in my adoption of the indieweb plugins so far is the complexity some of these plugins introduces, such as the dualing Post Formats vs Post Kinds. I always try to think of it as someone who sees a new Post Kinds widget for the first time and is confused by there being redundancy between the two taxonomies.
# chrisaldrich (Though I will admit that I think that some of the experimental or not completely supported types may not have displays, but you'd have to manually enable them in code to get them to work.
# chrisaldrich Perhaps Post Kinds should do the auto-hide of the Post Formats meta box to remove the cognitive dissonance?
# chrisaldrich Perhaps, but then there are always the longtime WP users who have had that box for ages and will still mentally want it for one reason or another.
# chrisaldrich Again, the mapping of the two taxonomies isn't 1-1 or onto since they have different sizes, so that could create issues too.
# chrisaldrich the /type/ path will still be there because it's built into core
# chrisaldrich attempting to disable that would be potentially painful
# chrisaldrich though in practice I'm not aware of many non-developers who would likely be using it
# chrisaldrich '/type' only show up only within the theme or if it's hardcoded into a page somewhere
# chrisaldrich the path for /kind/post-type/ doesn't show up anywhere specifically, but exists as a structure for those who want to provide it
# chrisaldrich Typically those who would provide for them would be developers or themers
# chrisaldrich And generally a themer would likely use a path like that to create custom archive templates for displaying those individual types in my experience
# chrisaldrich I'm not aware of any themes off hand that really leverage the /type/format/ setups in a way that many users would even notice them. Do you?
# chrisaldrich It could but it's usually far more difficult for plugins to hook into themes like that because you never know what a particular theme is going to do.
# chrisaldrich This is one of the big problems with the uf2 plugin trying to intelligently inject microformats v2 classes into themes
# chrisaldrich The theme itself has to do some of that presentation work and the level of knowledge of themers can vary greatly
# chrisaldrich Even themes like Twenty Fourteen do CSS styling on hentry if I recall, which is a major no-no for semantic classes like that. Thus if a plugin tries to add the proper h-entry microformat to the game, the entire theme breaks and most users will never figure out why, they'll just think the plugin is broken.
# chrisaldrich What you're suggesting, if it could be done well, might be somewhat worthwhile for gen3+ users, but would probably drive me crazy from a legacy data perspective.
# chrisaldrich This gets a bit into the problems WP has in general with trying to properly support legacy sites.
# chrisaldrich And naturally a lot of it may all go somewhat sideways when Gutenberg rolls out too...
# chrisaldrich As if things weren't hard enough....
# [asuh] If Post Kinds could be updated to support all Post Formats, or at least allow someone to update the Post Kinds titles to be the same as Post Formats, that could be analogous to injecting Microformats 2 alongside the old ones in WordPress core today. You don’t lose the legacy Post Formats if you’re able to keep them in Post Kinds, but you get to unify the experience into one widget
# chrisaldrich Ideally, it would be far easier to update post formats to add in all the post kinds, but that becomes a tougher political question because it involves core
# chrisaldrich and I think core WP is moving away from Formats in a general sense...
# chrisaldrich The code and the URL paths are all still there and built in regardless of if the theme is using them or not though
# chrisaldrich Individual themes need to declare that they provide support for Post Formats and identify which particular ones they do support.
# chrisaldrich You can get into some display trouble if you move a site that supports all 9 Formats to a theme that only supports 3, for example.
# chrisaldrich Sort of, the way the two are handled from a display perspective is a bit different while still being really flexible.
# chrisaldrich The 9 will still show up, but the way they're displayed may be very drastically different looking than they were before.
# chrisaldrich That's certainly part of it.
# chrisaldrich Post Kinds has many more data fields and moving pieces than Post Formats does and is also a lot more flexible
# chrisaldrich Yes, in practice most themes don't care much about Post Formats anymore or they're all relatively the same.
# chrisaldrich The primary difference often being that asides and status updates don't display the titles.
# chrisaldrich Post Formats really only have the title, the body, and maybe the excerpt to be able to play around with. Thus they rely on the user only putting very specific things into those fields.
# chrisaldrich If your Video format is styled to better feature YouTube or other embedded videos as their only content in the_body, then things can go sideways if you add a few paragraphs of text underneath them
# chrisaldrich Sadly, I think there are often more issues between functional code and themes than we'd like to admit.
# chrisaldrich Even some of the IndieWeb friendly themes that do exist can have odd quirks with Post Kinds
# chrisaldrich As an example the Post Format for Video would have been a horrible choice for something like this: http://boffosocko.com/2018/03/22/wont-you-be-my-neighbor-official-trailer-focus-features/
# chrisaldrich It features some additional metadata about the video and includes some commentary on it as well.
# chrisaldrich A well featured Post Format version would really have only best contained the video by itself (at least the way the Format was originally intended), and some of it would depend on the particular theme and how it wanted to handle those things.
# chrisaldrich Even David regularly admits he could be better at theme integration (he did just a day ago: https://chat.indieweb.org/wordpress/2018-03-21#t1521670513323200)
# chrisaldrich No, it's an example of how Post Kinds does better with video/watch posts compared with the Post Format of Video.
# chrisaldrich Examples of the other can be found in the issue queue of ZenPress: https://github.com/pfefferle/ZenPress/issues
# chrisaldrich And even there, Pfefferle really knows what he's doing and GWG is usually actively trying to make things work better and dovetail in a nicer way.
# chrisaldrich Themes aren't always easy because you often need a bit of spackle between the theme and how not only core will work with it, but how any of the thousands of plugins is going to react with it.
# chrisaldrich I know the feeling... hope some of this has helped... there's a lot of subtlety
jeremycherfas joined the channel
# jeremycherfas !tell chrisaldrich Maybe this week you won't be driving? In any case, are you each recording locally and then splicing, or is one of you recording? The former is a little easier for audio level matching, but it isn't hard the other way either.
[kevinmarks] joined the channel
# jeremycherfas You recorded both ends? On separate tracks?
# jeremycherfas So do I!
# jeremycherfas But I do stuff like mix-minus to record one speaker hard left and the other hard right, which makes it relatively easy to split them and then normalise.
# jeremycherfas It would improve my listening experience, for sure!
# jeremycherfas Er, unstructured? I know it perplexed some people who aren't into IndieWeb and WP and all that.
# jeremycherfas I'll keep listening, of course, but I think maybe you need to have at least a bit of a clear outline in mind, and maybe keep it under 45 minutes if possible.
# jeremycherfas I love the conversational format. Nothing wrong with that. But you can still plan what you're going to say, and maybe even who is going to say it.
# jeremycherfas Good plan.
test, [cb], [kevinmarks], [eddie] and [unoabraham] joined the channel
# 
[unoabraham] I understand its related to H Card, but not sure how to proceed here.
# [unoabraham] Getting <span class='p-name'></span> in the RSS feed for the blog title and link to the blog post.
# [unoabraham] Any pointers please?
# [unoabraham] And getting <span class='p-author h-card'>Abraham</span> for the post author and post archive link.
# [unoabraham] Hi,
[pfefferle] joined the channel
# 
[pfefferle] you have to disable the uf2 plugin
[cleverdevil] and tantek joined the channel
# [unoabraham] Thanks!
[kevinmarks], [manton] and tantek joined the channel
[snarfed], [jgmac1106], [kim_landwehr], [jeremycherfas], [manton], [eddie], [kevinmarks], tantek, toomim, gRegorLove and [tantek] joined the channel
# 
loqi.me created /wordpress_jetpack (+20) "prompted by tantek and redirect added by snarfed" (view diff)
[kevinmarks] joined the channel