#wordpress 2018-04-18
2018-04-18 UTC
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chrisaldrich There's a few interesting UI pain points relating to WP and indieweb in general in this post: https://www.sadlerjw.com/2018/04/17/wrapping-my-head-around-micro-blog-and-indieweb/
# chrisaldrich I think some of the one's he's mentioned are ones that are relatively known among the regulars who are self-dogfooding, but may not be documented in repos, or are documented down quite a bit.
# chrisaldrich In particular, his one issue with threaded commenting is a relatively tough problem, particularly when cross-threading with a longer Twitter conversation.
# chrisaldrich I'm not sure anything syndicates from a WordPress comment to Twitter (other than some of us who do it manually), and even then, I don't think Brid.gy would backfeed properly with URL#fragments.
# chrisaldrich If not documented in github repos, we could put them into /WordPress_Outreach_Club
# chrisaldrich needs to catch up the conversation earlier today.
# chrisaldrich tantek: the nice part is that the pain points of newcomers has become pretty significantly advanced. This is the first time I've seen someone mention the threading issue which I know most have generally solved via manual methods if they're even aware that it exists.
# chrisaldrich naturally we should do better about trying to document them though.
# chrisaldrich it sounds like miklb has given up on that idea though if my brief glance earlier was the proper indication?
# chrisaldrich I had that same thought too tantek...
# chrisaldrich as well as a clearinghouse of recent updates/changes to make them more gen2+ friendly compared to some of the briefer changelogs which aren't always obvious.
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[pfefferle] I implemented threaded comments only for Webmentions, so the whole syndication stuff also needs to support it... I brid.gy publish supporting Comment-Webmentions?
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[jgmac1106] wordpress is getting closer to turn key. For those who have been trying plug-ions from the beginning things are amazingly improved and theme compatibility issues don't arise as often.
# [jgmac1106] I don't think it is a tool problem or tracking pain point, its a documentation problem. The indieweb wiki was written by devs for devs. It shows.
# [jgmac1106] I have to take my students from never having been online beyond social media to creating their own blog and focusing on the "values" of indieweb. I think it would take me a few semesters to truly indiewebify my students (wordpress.com>self hosted wprdpress>indieweb plug-ins>syndication)
# [jgmac1106] @gwg I agree but you folks are getting close all the plug-ins are compatible and come in one install, but how do you prepare for when folks have to do the great plug-in purge, turinging each one on and off to figure out is causing a problem. That isn't your fault, but that's just something you do
# [jgmac1106] I think a lot of focus needs to be put on theme developers. Currently indieweb only recommends two themes as fullt compatible
# [jgmac1106] part of the reason I recommend folks who do move from wordpress.com to a self hosted instance to pay for a theme just so you know you get developer suppor
# [jgmac1106] take the first three principles: ✊ Own your data.
# [jgmac1106] 🔍 Use visible data for humans first, machines second. See also DRY.
# [jgmac1106] 💪 Make tools for yourself
# [jgmac1106] I can teach a "norm" number one. They understand that. They can get that, but from 2-3 I know you are no longer to speaking to me as user but only to developers. WTF is DRY and why woul;d I also see it. What the hell do you mean machin vs human read data?
# [jgmac1106] even folks like jsadler who have some development chops don't even know what indieweb means
# [jgmac1106] and new users can't make tools themselves. Having that so high up in principles is exclusionary
# [jgmac1106] Kind of like micro.blog which uses "exclusionary development" by using a Markdown editor and not including a wysiwyg editor you are saying, "This tool isn't for you. It's for the cool kids who know tech" That can be deliberate. Going after niche markets make sense when fighting large incumbents
# [jgmac1106] me neither, I am an elementary school teacher and literacy professor
# [jgmac1106] You rare just quite ahead of me in understanding of php and WP
# [jgmac1106] I agree. It is still a community of devs for devs and its quite intimidating for folks like you and eye to step into the space,, let along folks who have never had a website
# [jgmac1106] but I do think theme compatibility, plus the known threaded comments and web mentions issues are biggest priority
# [jgmac1106] Semantics over pretty is also in the DNA of #indieweb hating images and infographics is even kind of meme (if wrongfully attributed) Wordpress users like pretty themes that do pretty things. If #indieweb isn't pretty they will choose social sharing plug ins that probably leak a ton of data
# [jgmac1106] I have a post I quit in 6th grade after doing a live demo of programs I wrote in 1988 using BASIC and feeling the social wrath, plus I hated computer teacher in middle school. You had to go through the "office suite" and learn spreadshaeets one horrible step at a time. Then you could take programming and learn Pascal...but I wasn't brave enough to face the stigma and she was mean teacher
# [jgmac1106] can you point me to a repo?
# 
GWG https://github.com/dshanske/syndication-links/ - Syndication Links
# GWG https://github.com/indieweb/wordpress-indieweb - Indieweb Plugin...the one with the widgets
# GWG https://david.shanske.com/2018/04/07/indieauth-for-wordpress/ - You can see it in the left sidebar here. The widgets..the rel-me and the h-card on the left.
# [jgmac1106] http://jgregorymcverry.com/ there is h card on my site
# [jgmac1106] even on your site your mentions come juts as an icon and not the actual text of the webmention. When I do get folks to try indieweb on wordpress that's one of the things they notice
# [jgmac1106] my website...you will notice 1,000s of typos
# [jgmac1106] proofreed after publishing, you hvae no readers anyways, that's my philosophy
# [jgmac1106] ....ahh I think this goes back to that earlier thread yesterday about documenting indieweb wordpress changes , and now the pain point, happy to write content for folks
# [jgmac1106] under general settings of the inidieweb plug-in settings?
# [jgmac1106] i meant or
# [jgmac1106] Or just provide guidance...I won't have time this week, but let's spin up an instance and just do a walkthrough of turning on and off indieweb features, make it a podcast
# [jgmac1106] I use a wordpress site for my support page for review. I wonder if we need an indieweb wordpress support community or is it better running this through the plug-ins support pages? Do you get inbounds from there?
# [jgmac1106] a quick video tutorial after a major version or even a point release makes sense. Just a 3-5 minut video. Shorter better
# [jgmac1106] I can help
# [jgmac1106] Yeah a link to the chat room would be smart
# [jgmac1106] yeah I laugh as you always write I can't wait for vacation so I can work a ton for free. Thanks, man
# [jgmac1106] Well off to start my day, I will take a look at the design of the h-card plug in. What about the design do you not like?
# [jgmac1106] okay and all this work will all have to be redone when Gutenberg drops and breaks everything
# 
jeremycherfas !tell [jgmac1106] I'm not sure what your students are studying, but wouldn't it be great if they could document their experiences (and yours) to improve matters for those who come later?
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# [jgmac1106] sknebel, it's inside baseball (American idiom as being something requiring specail knowledge among in -crowds" Just a semantic first vibe that I believe is rooted in DNBA older than indieweb community....and I was of course half joking about heard going off on screenshots of texts on Twtter not brining "readable" you haven't lived
# [jgmac1106] I can not type when I wake up in the morning sorry all
# jeremycherfas Maybe you would like to try again later?
# jeremycherfas I'm still trying to understand "kind of meme"?
# [jgmac1106] [jeremycherfas] I did this when we were building and testing Thimble for Mozilla in my class. Here is the class: http://edu106class.networkedlearningcollaborative.com/module2.html
# jeremycherfas What is thimble?
# 
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "thimble" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "thimble is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# [jgmac1106] I was being rude and snarky
# jeremycherfas All I got was incomprehensible. Is meme an adjective in your world?
# jeremycherfas Or a typo?
# [jgmac1106] the best way to teach folks to write html/css/javascript https://thimble.mozilla.org/en-US/
# [jgmac1106] ohh the word "meme"??
# [jgmac1106] noun
# [jgmac1106] but I will also use memes as verbs, adjectives, and adverbs
# jeremycherfas Kind of "noun"? Does not compute.
# [jgmac1106] you being serious or just joking around?
# jeremycherfas To meme?
# jeremycherfas Serious as all get out. Please use meme as an adjective.
# jeremycherfas That's a really meme dog?
# jeremycherfas OK, out of here.
# [jgmac1106] no meaning I might use a meme to describe somebody or something. there my reactionary meme is acting like a an adjective describing something
# [jgmac1106] yeah I need to get my started as well. Already tried once
# [jgmac1106] meme as adjective, while meme is a noun it can be used as any part of speech in web dialogue
# [jgmac1106] or the next tool Mozilla will sunset. Not mutually exclusive
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[stefp] Is my reply on this another quirk of the Independent Publisher theme? That doesn’t look good at all. https://aaronparecki.com/2018/04/09/5/
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# [jgmac1106] [stefp] I don't think so though the image you shares is set to 100% width
# [jgmac1106] were you replying to his post with an image post from your wordpress site?
# [jgmac1106] it doesn't seem like thats your author photo in h-card
# [jgmac1106] ooops, never mind.
# [jgmac1106] should have saw the gravatar link. Can you post a link to your website?
# [jgmac1106] ...ahh then even I can help you figure out how to add the h-card widget
# [jgmac1106] skenbel if no h-card is present indieweb plug in defaults to WP bio page correct?
# [stefp] if I add the h-card widget to the front page should that fix it?
# [jgmac1106] best way to find out is test it
# [stefp] yeah
# [jgmac1106] but yeah, you can set the photo but the plug-in does pull from the user profile page I believe so different themes to different things sometimes
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# [chrisaldrich] It looks like it's also pulling in your post's reply context in addition to your response. That may be a quirk with post kinds and your theme? I would think the theme would handle that properly though.
# [stefp] Yes. I think Independent Publisher has a few quirks.
# [chrisaldrich] [stefp] you can test with https://IndieWebify.me or https://pin13.net/mf2/ to check
# [chrisaldrich] It has quirks but I thought it was more IW friendly than that.
# [jgmac1106] [chrisaldrich] @gwg going back to the wp knowledge base idea for new pages, maybe a theme review page would be helpful.
# [jgmac1106] for example on the h-entry card how many themes will use the featured image for u-photo, that's what people would expect to happen
# [jgmac1106] ohh and [chrisaldrich] I meant to ask did you just delete the default post page and replace it a page and add feeds to all your post categories or post kinds?
# [jgmac1106] I was digging through your source code when trying to write a filter to get only articles to publish on the default "post page" then thought...wait I can just forget that page and build the ones I want with feeds I want
# [chrisaldrich] [jgmac1106] I'm using a static page as my front page and then in the customizer I set a "posts page" to be a titleless page with the /blog/ permalink
# [chrisaldrich] since I'm using both post formats and post kinds, they typically create "archive" pages for all those pieces of content.
# [chrisaldrich] eg: post kinds provides a page at boffosocko.com/kind/articles/ with all the articles and a feed of them at /kind/articles/feed/
# [chrisaldrich] post formats do something similar for standard/audio/video/image/status update/etc. with the pattern /type/status/ and the feed at /type/status/feed/ where "status" is the name of the content type
# [chrisaldrich] These types of pages are also automatically generated for tags and categories, thus: http://boffosocko.com/category/indieweb/ with a feed at http://boffosocko.com/category/indieweb/feed/
# [chrisaldrich] [jgmac1106] I've documented some bits of these at http://boffosocko.com/2016/12/18/rss-feeds-a-follow-up-on-my-indieweb-commitment-2017/ and http://boffosocko.com/2017/08/11/post-kinds-plugin-for-wordpress/#Custom%20feeds%20for%20Post%20Kinds
# [chrisaldrich] The nice part is for almost everything, WP core generally provides an archive page and an affiliated feed for it.
# [chrisaldrich] You can even use syntax in the URL to get mashups of various pieces. Thus my /eat and /drink streams can be combined as http://boffosocko.com/kind/eat,drink/ to come up with a "food diary" of both eats and drinks
# [chrisaldrich] Come to think of it, with Post Kinds Plugin set up, I could create a "media diary" using http://boffosocko.com/kind/listen,watch,read,jam,play/ with posts of all those types. I'll note that the archive page generated will have a heading that reads as the type which occurs first, in this case "listen"
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# chrisaldrich For those using /Known I think it has a similar URL structure patterns which cleverdevil makes good use of (and these also have URL patterns for the attendant RSS feeds as well).
# [chrisaldrich] Hmmm... not finding any of his prior examples, but the general pattern on Known for statuses and photos would be something like: https://cleverdevil.io/content/statusupdates/photos/
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# [jgmac1106] thx [chrisaldrich] I am testing right now if I want to keep everything on just WP like you or keep my status updates and other stuff going through Known.
# [chrisaldrich] I do a little bit of both, particularly for short one-off replies which I do via Known at http://stream.boffosocko.com/. I've been slowly but surely trying to do everything with WP, but still have a tremendous soft spot for /Known
# [chrisaldrich] What is multi-site indieweb?
# Loqi Multi-site Indieweb is a hybrid approach to Indieweb in which a wide range of people have two (or more) indieweb enabled platforms for a multitude of reasons https://indieweb.org/multi-site_indieweb
# [jgmac1106] I didn't really think about it until indigenous, an Android flavor MicroPub app was what I was missing
# [chrisaldrich] Many of us have been "cheating" on mobile with URL Forwarder described here: /mobile_posting if you haven't come across it yet. A native micropub solution is certainly welcome though!
# [jgmac1106] I just used post by email
# [jgmac1106] and known on ff for android was doable
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