#wordpress 2024-07-19

2024-07-19 UTC
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Zic I didn't mean to offend with my question. I'm just being direct.
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Zic Why do I think built-in comments in WordPress are not cool?
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GWG People don't iterate on it
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Zic 1. In many cases they cause delays in page loading
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Zic 2 Requires anti-spam plugins
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Zic 3. It takes a lot of work to make the comment form look elegant or use more plugins
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GWG Webmentions are stored as comments, but it doesn't have to work like the traditional comment system. Styling though...that's a big question
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Zic 4. default behavior - load all comments at once (if you don't want this, install another plugin).
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Zic I could list a few more points why I think that built-in comments in Wordpress are a dead end
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Zic Maybe I'll write right away what I mean
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Zic IndieWeb -> Webmention has a bright future ahead of it
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Zic At some point WordPress comments will become a burden for IndieWeb (plugin dependent on comments).
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Zic From my limited perspective, it seems like this should be moved outside of WordPress. For example, a Lamp stack app or even Docker. You can use any programming language, not just what WordPress imposes (php).
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Zic I know that not everyone can install a server application on a server. Maybe then there would be a place for a server for such a thing - a community server.
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Zic With good tutorials I was able to run a couple of LAMP server apps (I don't consider myself a devops person). If someone can use WordPress and configure IndieWeb with all the plugins then such an IndieWeb server app shouldn't be a challenge
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Zic Perhaps the following question is absurd:
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Zic What if WordPress drops comments? What about Webmention?
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Zic Having an external server application for Webmention, it would be enough to create a small plugin in IndieWeb that would allow You to indicate in the form of a shortcode where on the page the form (code fragment) referring to the server application should be placed.
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Zic If my question offended anyone, I apologize.
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Zic I suspect there are arguments for using WordPress's built-in commenting system, but I don't see them.
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gRegor Seems incredibly unlikely WP core would drop comments. If they did, I suspect there would still be a plugin to support them, similar to the Classic Editor plugin. The Webmention plugin could also pivot in that case to store webmentions in its own custom tables.
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gRegor Generally I don't think piggybacking on the comment system has caused major problems.
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gRegor Especially compared to "install a totally separate app outside of WordPress", which would be really limiting, basically only for devs.
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Zic You mean: there was no problem replacing from built-in WordPress comments? Or a problem staying in the built-in WordPress comment system?
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Zic Why would a server app be a limitation?
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gRegor My last comment? I was contrasting the friction of issues the WP comment system might have, to the suggestion of running a separate server app outside of WordPress to handle it
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gRegor You can definitely run a separate app if you prefer and you're comfortable with it, but most WordPress users don't want to be a sysadmin. Clicking "Add Plugin" and configuring a few things is preferable for a lot of people
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Zic "You can definitely run a separate app if you prefer and you're comfortable with it, but most WordPress users don't want to be a sysadmin. Clicking "Add Plugin" and configuring a few things is preferable for a lot of people" -> That's why I wrote about a public server (associated with an account). The server application would be only for those who want to have their own instance.
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Zic e.g. webmention.social
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Zic I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm just thinking out loud.
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Zic Yesterday's conversation @GWG and @nsmsn was about the necessity of editing the file: wp-config.php However, maintaining plugins costs a bit more effort
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Zic I'm falling asleep on my keyboard. To avoid any confusion, I didn't mean to turn everything upside down with my question. I simply wrote that an external application can provide some capabilities that are limited by WordPress' built-in commenting system.
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gRegor I'm not sure what you mean by instances
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gRegor No worries
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Zic If someone does not trust a public server (e.g. has been blocked), and the application installed on the server is open source, then this blocked person can install the application on their device (this is an instance).
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gRegor Are you talking about ActivityPub or Webmentions?
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gRegor ActivityPub is what I usually think of with regard to instances. Sorry, I might be missing earlier context in the conversation, I can read back.
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Zic "Are you talking about ActivityPub or Webmentions?" I referred to Webmention. But Any of the above. They can even be both.
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Zic In many cases I have trouble describing what I want to say, but I always try to explain.
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gRegor No problem, I see the original context is the ActivityPub plugin, which I'm not really familiar with. I know it's quite different (and more complex) than the Webmention plugin. I was only referring to the Webmention plugin and why it stores them in the comments structure of WP database. :)
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Zic I guess I'm the only skeptic when it comes to keeping anything in the comment database
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Zic Keeping everything local definitely has its benefits that I'm unable to see.
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gRegor Hey, skeptics are good, makes us take a fresh look at things sometimes. I'm not an active user of WP, btw, though I do a lot with it for some work clients.
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Zic In my opinion, such a server app for comments and everything else that Webmention offers would seem to be a more scalable solution.
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Zic Separating Webmention from WordPress comments would make it an independent, atomic service. Not just targeted at WordPress. How much work could be saved.
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gRegor Have you seen https://indieweb.org/Webmention and all the implementation examples?
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gRegor Webmention isn't WordPress specific
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Zic Thank you for the conversation. I already look like a zombie. I'm going to bed. I hope that tomorrow someone will find time to read my thoughts/arguments and share their reflections on this topic.
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gRegor https://indieweb.org/Webmention#Publishing_Software more specifically
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gRegor Ok, rest well :)
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Zic I've never used the phrase that Webmention is specialized for WordPress. In my speculations I wondered if the Webmention plugin could be in an external application and not in the comment database (WordPress)
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Zic Thank you for the conversation, good night :)
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GWG Zic: You could always integrate something like webmention.io
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nsmsn Getting late here, but I had my host edit the wp-config file, GWG
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GWG Did that work?
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nsmsn not sure...I tried the two tests for receivers on webmention.rocks. Got a 400 response code on the first one
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nsmsn I disabled the Webmention plugin briefly and tried out the IndieBlocks implementation, which did pass both tests on webmention.rocks
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nsmsn TBH I think I like yours and Matthias' webmention plugin better
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GWG Could it be a conflict between the two?
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nsmsn Again, not sure. I only have one enabled at a time, at least for Webmention functionality.
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nsmsn The endpoint discovery is at https://nicksimson.com/wp-json/webmention/1.0/endpoint does that seem right?
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IWDiscord <n​smsn>
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GWG That's the URL for the endpoint
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nsmsn So what I see on the webmention.rocks test response code is
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IWDiscord <n​smsn>
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nsmsn "code": "webmentions_closed",
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nsmsn {
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nsmsn "message": "Webmentions are disabled for this post",
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nsmsn "status": 400
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nsmsn "data": {
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nsmsn }
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nsmsn }
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GWG So.. still disabled problem.
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GWG Can you enable it for the page?
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nsmsn I'm not sure how to enable it. I have comments allowed for this page, and Pages enabled in Webmention settings.
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nsmsn https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/866577476565336074/1263938524621701291/Screenshot_2024-07-19_at_2.48.29_PM.png?ex=669c0dfb&is=669abc7b&hm=b82eeba93e82310dbe0ca9340caf9018e1a1a0e035eb5cebdaff96241a0ffa03&
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GWG Did you enable in the post editor for the specific page?
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GWG WordPress disables page pings by default
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GWG It's a separate setting
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GWG On a per post basis
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nsmsn Oh I will check right now
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GWG As I said, we need to stop depending on a undernoticed WordPress 1.0 feature
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nsmsn All I see is that I have comments enabled for this page in the page editor...I don't know if ping settings are hidden in the block editor?
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nsmsn https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/866577476565336074/1263945612047421510/Screenshot_2024-07-19_at_3.46.32_PM.png?ex=669c1494&is=669ac314&hm=1eb5c2d20fd6e0b5decc4132f208dd929eba9f02e116aff87f5b55ba53974b38&
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GWG https://wordpress.com/support/comments/#enable-comments-on-a-specific-post
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GWG I just searched
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GWG That might not be current
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nsmsn I don't know...I'm not on WordPress.com, I use Flywheel for WP.org
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nsmsn I can't replicate that screen in the post editor. Going to search wp.org docs
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GWG Yes, I think I need to go to a test site.
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GWG I'm not at my desk yet
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nsmsn Are you familiar with "Decisions, Not Options", GWG? https://wordpress.org/about/philosophy/
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nsmsn [edit] Are you familiar with "Decisions, Not Options", GWG? https://wordpress.org/about/philosophy/
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GWG Yes, but this is their option not mine
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nsmsn lol
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GWG I made the case we should change on the basis that enabling the plugin meant you wanted Webmentions.
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nsmsn seems like a solid decision.
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nsmsn One could say that would almost "engineer" happiness...
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GWG I found it.
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GWG It's in my version in the block editor.
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nsmsn 👀
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GWG Oh...
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GWG It's on posts, but not on pages
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GWG Interesting
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GWG How about this. Enable the Classic Editor plugin, change it in there, then disable the plugin
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GWG Just to solve this now
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nsmsn sounds hacky but I'll give it a shot
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GWG I have some PRs to write this weekend
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nsmsn going to do a quick backup first
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GWG Because this is problematic
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nsmsn unbelievable! It passed the webmention.rocks receiver test #1
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nsmsn Would you mind sending me a webmention to nicksimson.com? I want to test this page now.
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GWG Publishing one now.
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GWG Might take a minute for it to cycle thorugh
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nsmsn no rush
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nsmsn I got the mention! It went to my spam. Now I just need to figure out the block-y stuff to get it to appear on my page. https://nicksimson.com/mentions/
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nsmsn [edit] I got the mention! It went to my spam. Now I just need to figure out the block-y stuff to get it to appear on my page. https://nicksimson.com/mentions/
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nsmsn [edit] I got the mention! It went to my spam. Now I just need to figure out the block-y stuff to get it to appear on my page. https://nicksimson.com/mentions/
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nsmsn Oh duh....Approved the comment
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nsmsn GWG ++ OK, now I know it works! Thank you!!!
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Loqi GWG has 13 karma in this channel over the last year (53 in all channels)
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nsmsn Let me know if you need a tester for the fix.
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nsmsn And I'm curious to find the discussion in GitHub or elsewhere to deprecate pingbacks/trackbacks in the Block Editor...https://wordpress.org/documentation/article/trackbacks-and-pingbacks/#how-do-i-send-a-trackback-classic-editor-only
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nsmsn [edit] And I'm curious to find the discussion in GitHub or elsewhere to deprecate pingbacks/trackbacks in the Block Editor...https://wordpress.org/documentation/article/trackbacks-and-pingbacks/#how-do-i-send-a-trackback-classic-editor-only
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nsmsn [edit] And I'm curious to find the discussion in GitHub or elsewhere to deprecate pingbacks/trackbacks in the Block Editor...https://wordpress.org/documentation/article/trackbacks-and-pingbacks/#how-do-i-send-a-trackback-classic-editor-only
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nsmsn [edit] And I'm curious to find the discussion in GitHub or elsewhere to deprecate pingbacks/trackbacks in the Block Editor...https://wordpress.org/documentation/article/trackbacks-and-pingbacks/#how-do-i-send-a-trackback-classic-editor-only
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