#indiewebcamp 2012-08-19

2012-08-19 UTC
tantek joined the channel
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aaronpk is it just me or is dev.twitter.com running reaaallly slow right now
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aaronpk could also be this coffee shop i suppose
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@aaronpk Posting a tweet from my own site. Sorry for the testing spam. #indieweb http://t.co/fOYxy0u9
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aaronpk hooooly crap it works
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adactio.com edited /2012/UK/Guest_List (+471) "/* Creators */" (view diff)
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aaronpk tantek: I now have a mobile app I can use to publish to my site and syndicate to Twitter and app.net!
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tantek whoa! a mobile *web* app?
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tantek so btw, what's the point of app.net? no, seriously, how is it anything more than a "country club for dues paying members" version of Twitter?
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aaronpk nope, this guy started writing an iPhone app to post to app.net, so I tweaked it to send the post request to my server first https://github.com/tonymillion/xtendr
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tantek ah iOS ok
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tantek still, it's a start
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aaronpk it does mean I have an API for my site now, so I can make a web interface next
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tantek what protocol does app.net use for posting? did they implement a standard like AtomPub or the MetaWeblog API? or did they create their own snowflake API?
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aaronpk they made their own, but they are actively taking suggestions from people https://github.com/appdotnet/api-spec
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tantek so it seems to me that there's a lack of vision for app.net
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tantek that pattern, "they made their own, but they are actively taking suggestions" does not bode well
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tantek e.g. same mistake with identity, they made their own (namespace of @-usernames), instead of using a standard (URLs - e.g. with IndieAuth, or email addresses - e.g. with Persona/BrowserID)
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tantek so I'm waiting for the first such aggregation service that is smart enough and has enough vision to "just say no" to "make their own", and instead finds and uses the standard building block for each aspect
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tantek and the bar to beat there is status.net
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aaronpk yea, status.net is the epitome of standards put together into a working product
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tantek we already have enough snowflakes (in APIs, identity, etc.)
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tantek so when there's yet another one, it's like, yawn
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tantek anyway, status.net proved that you don't need to create yet another aggregator that syndicates stuff in - you can simply subscribe *directly* to original real time sources, and use their remote permalinks as actual permalinks (instead of creating duplicates)
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tantek so it seems app.net is pursuing a bit of an obsolete model in that regard
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tantek unless the "country club version of Twitter" was the point of it
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tantek which makes it just yet another silo
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tantek which seems, meh
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tantek anyway, maybe I just being clueless and don't get it. hoping to be proven wrong.
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tantek BTW there are numerous blogging clients out there that support MetaWeblog API: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MetaWeblog
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aaronpk does wordpress use that protocol?
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tantek bingo
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tantek so you could just install the WordPress iOS app, point it to your blog that supports the MetaWeblog API - and go.
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tantek no need to reinvent
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tantek this is the kind of plug-and-play basic understanding of how all these standards work that is missing from any kind of app.net vision - and it's anywhere from frustrating to saddening.
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tantek here: http://ios.wordpress.org/faq/
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tantek and it's open source of course
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tantek so if we get our indieweb sites right, we *should* be able to just use an "off the shelf" standards-compliant client like the WordPress iOS client
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tantek no need to write new clients
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tantek (unless you really need new functionality - e.g. geocheckins etc.)
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aaronpk That was my first thought for an app to use to post to my site actually
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tantek cool!
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tantek and the wordpress folks are all very pro-indieweb too
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tantek so if we come up with an AtomPub or Metaweblog API extension for "checkins" - they might be willing to add it (or accept patches) to the iOS app
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aaronpk ah interesting
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tantek especially if paired with a WordPress plugin that *accepts* checkins via such protocol extension
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tantek so that's the right way to think about these things
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tantek use the existing standards-supporting clients etc., and extend the protocols openly to support new use-cases.
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tantek not, invent a new service / clone of Twitter, invent a new client just for said new service, then work hard to re-implement existing functionality in those clones
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aaronpk is xml-rpc just so out of style that that's what's preventing people from building on the wordpress/metaweblog standards?
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tantek could be a generational thing
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tantek then again, none of these "new kids" are much younger (if at all) than Matt Mullenweg
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aaronpk I feel like if I mention xml to anybody they just cringe
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tantek sure, but there's just libraries you use and you're done
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aaronpk yea totally, I used one to implement the pingback service, and it abstracted away all the xml parts
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tantek or if they don't like the XML, then they could just implement a JSON *mapping* of the standard API
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aaronpk it literally turned it into procedure calls in ruby
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tantek but no, instead they make shit up because frankly, they don't know any better, and don't know to ask the right questions
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tantek hence, tons of snowflakes
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tantek (which are also dumb from a security perspective BTW)
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tantek (since MetaWeblog API has been quite well tested / analyzed etc.)
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aaronpk well I think I may investigate using the wordpress ios app next, but in the mean time I now have a way to post to my site
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aaronpk it does a good job of auto-shortening the tweet to fit in 140 chars along with the link back to my site
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tantek also, does that new posting app use SSL?
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aaronpk yea it does
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tantek yeah? did you port my ellpsize function from cassis.js or write a new function?
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aaronpk I forgot to check if you'd made one already. but I have mine set up to preserve hashtags instead of trimming them off the end which was a common error case I was seeing in my first version
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tantek specifically the "ellipsize_to_word" function
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tantek hah - you ask me for Falcon open source and then forget to check it :P
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tantek the other Falcon function in cassis.js that's got a lot of intelligent details in it is "auto_link"
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tantek (IMHO better than Twitter's autolinking)
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aaronpk I will definitely look at the auto_link function, that is always hard to get right
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tantek bad autolinking on Twitter's part was one of the many annoyances that helped inspire Falcon
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tantek and that was before tco-ing
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aaronpk heh, the t.co thing made for some interesting logic in my shortening code.
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aaronpk if you write "app.net" it will turn the 7 characters into a 20-char t.co link, which counts against the 140 limit
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tantek yup - my autolinker handles that
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tantek I decided to create a separate function "tw_text_proxy" to "fake" what Twitter does with URLs in order to do more precise ellipsing.
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aaronpk we need a sentence or two people can put on their site in place of a comment form explaining why there is no comment form
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tantek I actually didn't want to corrupt my nice generic ellipsize_to_word function with special code just for Twitter's weirdness
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tantek so instead, the logic of ellipsing and taking into account Twitter's text expansion/compression due to URLs, is done by the calling code
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tantek aaonpk - or the comment form only appears if you sign-in with your own site, and the sites support site-to-site publishing of comments and then pingbacks.
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tantek e.g. if I sign-in to your site with my personal domain, and my personal site supports metaweblog API, then I should see a comment box *on your post on your site*
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aaronpk that's an interesting idea. I think a good start is just a paragraph of text tho :)
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tantek then if I post a comment *on the comment UI on the post on your site* - it should simply act like a blogging client posting "comment-type" post on *my* site, which should then pingback to the post on your site, thereby causing it to appear there in-line!
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aaronpk that is a good way to handle it
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tantek that's how we make peer-to-peer comments work
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tantek with the nice in-place comment box UI
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tantek no need to change the user experience or make excuses for why it's lacking
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tantek we just need to do the right indieweb plumbing underneath :)
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aaronpk that sounds like a fun challenge
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tantek (I really should write that up as a high level indieweb architectural comment-UI how-to)
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tantek (I've had that basic flow in mind for a few years now, since I first started coding on Falcon)
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tantek (it's just way down on the to-do list :) )
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aaronpk heh yea it requires at least a few other people to be on board before it's useful
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tantek not really
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tantek it will work with *any* indieweb site that supports a) metaweblog api, b) sending pingbacks
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aaronpk I don't see where the metaweblog api talks about comments
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tantek which means it immediately works with wordpress blog (as the place where the "comment-type" post is posted/saved)
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tantek a comment is just a short post without a title
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tantek with activity streams object type of "comment"
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aaronpk ah
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tantek think of the comment box as just another UI to write a blog post
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tantek and then it will all click
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tantek so every blog becomes a blog client as well
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aaronpk so if i'm looking at a post on your site, does the comment form have an action="http://aaronparecki.com/xmlrpc"?
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tantek assuming you've signed-in with aaronparecki.com, that sounds right
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aaronpk so you'd need a way to find my xmlrpc endpoint?
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tantek see metaweblog spec for that
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tantek that's also defined
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aaronpk ah
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tantek because blogging clients have to find the endpoint automatically
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tantek based on *just* the URL of the blog
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tantek so it all works
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tantek based on existing buliding blocks
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tantek s/buliding/building
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Loqi tantek meant to say: based on existing building blocks
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tantek thank you Loqi :)
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Loqi is done
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tantek lol
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tantek wow - I'm impressed with my Virgin Mobile 3G hotspot - I'm using it now on the train, and listening to thisismyjam.com (streaming music!)
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aaronpk Great, so a lot of pieces are already there, seems like authentication is the hard one
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aaronpk but thanks to relmeauth/indieauth it just got a lot easier
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tantek yes!
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tantek if we can get this all working, especially with "the other end" being a wordpress blog, that is, being able to use any wordpress blog to comment on *your site* (aaronparecki.com) - then that is worth proposing a session at a WordCamp for.
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tantek alright, switching transit modes, bbiab.