#indiewebcamp 2012-10-05
2012-10-05 UTC
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# sandeepshetty Would love to get feedback on http://activitypingback.org/
# sandeepshetty it's part of a larger project I'm working on: http://activityweb.org/
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# sandeepshetty Own domain pointing to Blogger
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# tantek e.g. documented here: http://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started#Hosted_Solution
# sandeepshetty ItCNAME to blogger
# sandeepshetty *It's a CNAME to Blogger: http://support.google.com/blogger/bin/static.py?hl=en&ts=1233381&page=ts.cs
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# sandeepshetty Yes. Thats also my openid URL (thanks to blogger so super easy to remember and use)
# sandeepshetty <link rel="me" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/05858379451002808518" /> <link rel="openid.server" href="http://www.blogger.com/openid-server.g" /> <link rel="openid.delegate" href="http://sandeep.shetty.in/" />
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# @benatkin When people build their own websites, they get a better understanding of Internet Freedom. Check out http://indiewebcamp.com/Main_Page #Internet2012
dascher, zztr, Nadreck, josephboyle, dietrich, aaronpk, donpdonp, Alphi, hober, lmorchard, mkowens, catsup, reidab, singpolyma, benward, tommorris, jancborchardt, elf-pavlik, wajiii-afk and brianloveswords joined the channel
# @benatkin ;@zekeweeks @alexisohanian was glad to hear about #indieweb. The name makes it easy to explain. /cc @aaronpk @indiewebcamp #Internet2012
# @benatkin @zekeweeks be sure to sign up for next year and visit the IRC! #indieweb on freenode
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# barnabywalters hey sandeepshetty — good to see you here!
# barnabywalters I had a look over activitypingback
# sandeepshetty Great! What do you think?
# barnabywalters overall it looks to be a lot easier to implement than salmon would be/is
# barnabywalters the big benefit of using public keys, however, is that you get encryption as well as verification
# barnabywalters e.g. how would private messages be implemented using activitypingback?
# sandeepshetty I haven't thought this through because I was focusing on public activities like on blogs and twitter (because I think there are other channels for private secure messaging), but at the top of head you could do it with either HTTPS (only if the receiver has an HTTPS endpoint will the sender send the notification) OR a new content-type approach?
# barnabywalters if activitypingback is purely for public data, why not just use ordinary pingback? The same amount of requests are involved (sender -> receiver, receiver -> sender to verify content)
# sandeepshetty ActivityPingback has richer activity semantics (because of the activity streams payload) than the "someone linked to you semantics" of pingack...
# barnabywalters that behaviour could easily be added onto existing pingbacks, and ideally should be expressed by the sending endpoint
# barnabywalters e.g. if I favourite one of your posts, I send you an activitypingback…
# barnabywalters …with activitystreams data in (even though it’s an ordinary XMLRPC pingback)
# barnabywalters if you support the AS data, you can verify it
# barnabywalters if you don’t, it just counts as a link, and so legacy blogging applications can interop too
# barnabywalters even the HMAC auth could be piggybacked onto XMLRPC pingbacks
# sandeepshetty I see what you mean. I've always cringed at the XMLRPC based interface with it's hex return codes :)
# barnabywalters sandeepshetty: sure, me too :) but it already exists and is *really* widely supported
# barnabywalters like, every wordpress blog uses it!
# barnabywalters at the very least I plan on using it as fallback for whatever more advanced protocol becomes popular
# sandeepshetty The added semantics require a little more security than what Pingback provides... to avoid things like replay attacks
# sandeepshetty Senders should be able to verify that the "Activity" originated from them... I'm guessing it could still be done via regular pingbacks and if the receiver gets an AS, it can be pretty sure that the sender support a verification endpoint..
# barnabywalters which is another good reason to send a dumb ping and let the receiver crawl the useful information off the page if it wants to
# barnabywalters I am increasingly leaning toward that approach, actually
# sandeepshetty The nature of activites (lots of them) means that not all info will be "on page" and crawlable...
# barnabywalters sandeepshetty: then I would ask "why not", and/or "why is a <link rel="alternative" type="application/json"> version being supplied"
# barnabywalters e.g. I have http://waterpigs.co.uk/activity
# barnabywalters add .json to the end of the URL (and pardon the incorrect mime type, it will be fixed in a min)
# barnabywalters the only reason all the extra data isn’t being exposed in the HTML is there is no agreed serialisation for AS data in h-atom yet
# barnabywalters and each activity has it’s own URL, so no need to load all the activities and have to crawl them
# sandeepshetty Yeah I was just thinking that..
# sandeepshetty makes sense..
# barnabywalters is fixing that MIME issue
# barnabywalters fixed. Should be nice JSON data (soon to be actual activitystrea.ms JSON data) now
# sandeepshetty (Y)
# sandeepshetty barnabywalters: I'm going to things about just piggybacking on Pingback and get back to you...
# barnabywalters sandeepshetty: fab. if you’re up for it we should build a prototype
# sandeepshetty Yep. What's the _list in the json?
# barnabywalters in the meantime I’ll have a look over AS-serialisation in HTML (tantek? you mentioned this previously, I believe?)
# barnabywalters sandeepshetty: residue from the framework I built. I refer to the view the activity’s being rendered in as list
# barnabywalters then the different versions for content types are list.html.php, list.atom.php, list.json.php…
# sandeepshetty I was actually going to write to tantek about that (saw point 4 here http://tantek.pbworks.com/w/page/21743425/Falcon)
# barnabywalters ah, that’s where I saw it mentioned!
# sandeepshetty BTW, is the publishing platform you're using/develeping open source?
# barnabywalters sandeepshetty: sort of. I’m against releasing the entire thing (it’s not a product, I don’t really think people will want to use it as it is), but I’m releasing the useful parts of it
# barnabywalters or, more accurately, I’m developing external modules for use with it and releasing them
# sandeepshetty (Y), BTW, that isn't a valid json activity stream right?
# barnabywalters not yet :) Haven’t made it valid yet due to lack of consumer apps and time. Now the spec is almost finalised I’ll see if I can make it valid
# barnabywalters at the mo it’s just a JSON representation of what’s in my DB
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# sandeepshetty barnabywalters: Time to go back to the drawing board.. be back soon...
# barnabywalters nice talking to you. goodnight (in the UK)!
# sandeepshetty Way past midnight for me (in India) :)
# aaronpk sandeepshetty: I'd be up for hacking on the pingback thing too, did you already see my Ruby version? https://github.com/aaronpk/Pingback
# sandeepshetty yep.
# sandeepshetty I'm thinking of changing my spec (https://github.com/converspace/activity-pingback/) to just extend existing pingback
# sandeepshetty Just adding you guys to the github prject team..
# sandeepshetty what's your github username?
# sandeepshetty Do you know barnaby's username?
# sandeepshetty It's not on his website: http://waterpigs.co.uk/
# sandeepshetty yeah found it :D
# sandeepshetty tankek: Thanks :)
# sandeepshetty aaronpk: Done. Can you check if you have access now?
# sandeepshetty tantek: I don't have an answer for the spam problem except for moderation
# sandeepshetty You can still get spam with Pingback
# sandeepshetty The spammer just chooses to host the content...
# aaronpk also see http://aaronparecki.com/2011/213/article/1/indieweb-messaging for an interesting approach to combating spam
# sandeepshetty agreed.
# tantek another good example for the "Why" page: http://www.thecoolhunter.net/article/detail/2126/when-facebook-disables-your-fan-page
# tantek tommorris, I think it's more like this: MetaWeblogAPI used XML-RPC, TrackBack used RDF (in model, philosophy, and implementation) and got spammed, Pingback was designed as a replacement in the context of being another "standard" blog API, and since the existing such standard used XML-RPC, it did too, for consistency with that API model.
# sandeepshetty aaronpk: indieweb-messaging messaging is pretty neat especially the factoring problem.. just needs discovery (link header or link element) and it be easy for anyone to implement..
# tantek aaronpk - the article that image is from: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/tutorials/x-sparql/section2.html
# tommorris as in, if you are responding to /posts/47, you send your XML-RPC responses to /posts/47
# tommorris I may use https://rubygems.org/gems/pingback too
# @t "The problem is you don't know if what you are posting could irk FB"/G+/Tw http://www.thecoolhunter.net/article/detail/2126/when-facebook-disables-your-fan-page #ownyourdata #indieweb (ttk.me t4LJ1)
# tantek tommorris - FYI as of 2009 TBL was still including the 7-layer semantic burrito diagram in presentations: http://www.w3.org/2009/Talks/0120-campus-party-tbl/#(14)
# tommorris given my current exposure to Semantic Web stuff at the moment is building storage stuff for data that is inherently trustworthy (it's official and governmenty), I don't really keep up with what people are saying about trust on the open web. it tends to be that if you get a bunch of data from gov.uk, you kind of trust the source. ;-)
# tommorris.org edited /projects (+174) "/* experimental */ adding my little contribution to this effort" (view diff)
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# sandeepshetty tantek: Did you make any progress on point 4 (http://tantek.pbworks.com/w/page/21743425/Falcon)? re: figure out how to add Activity Streams semantics to hAtom
# sandeepshetty aaronpk: Haven't done much XML-RPC. Do you know if servers complain if they receive more than the expected parameters?
# sandeepshetty aaronpk: seems like it might be implementation specific though...
# sandeepshetty is reading about microformats2 http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-2
# tantek sandeepshetty - FYI h-entry: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2#h-entry
# sandeepshetty is rethinking piggybacking on Pingback
# sandeepshetty Looks like it's a common recommendation to disable pingback in the wordpress community
# sandeepshetty " In short, we have found 99% of all trackbacks/pingbacks to be SPAM. This is the reason why we have disabled it entirely. It is not worth the time to moderate a lot of SPAM like this." -http://www.wpbeginner.com/beginners-guide/what-why-and-how-tos-of-trackbacks-and-pingbacks-in-wordpress/
# sandeepshetty tantek: re:echo-chamber this is what the twitter stream feels like
# sandeepshetty No I meant following is type of whitelisting...
# sandeepshetty and you peek at the mentions once in a while (moderating)
# sandeepshetty you mean a netwrok of trust
# tommorris (we had a crazy banned wikipedia nutter a while back who managed to friend most of the Foundation people on the basis that if they know a few people, they could friend more on the basis of "friends with N people" stuff on Facebook. which given people use Facebook for personal stuff is kind of scary.)
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# sandeepshetty The other thing I like about Twitter is that replies are only visible to you, so spammers have less incentive or they are limited to just "you"
# sandeepshetty You mean @replies?
# sandeepshetty and followers right...
# sandeepshetty any other type of spam?
# sandeepshetty :)
# sandeepshetty that still @replies/@mention
# sandeepshetty which are limited to you.. will blog comments spammers are targetting all your readers/visitors
# sandeepshetty *with
# tommorris incidentally, icerocket seems like a nice way of getting stuff out of Twitter without the API these days: http://www.icerocket.com/search?tab=twitter&q=from%3Atommorris&rss=1
# sandeepshetty haha That seems more like a search problem (like if you search for PHP you'll also get posts with links ending in .php that might be relevant to PHP)
# sandeepshetty and it's using webintents :)
# sandeepshetty * might not be relevant to PHP
# sandeepshetty Visiting that link in chrome poped up the web intents dialog for me..
# sandeepshetty "Which service should be used ofr viewing?"
# sandeepshetty I'm on ubuntu/chrome
# sandeepshetty Maybe its chrome doing something based on content-type?
# sandeepshetty which is cool if that's the case..
# sandeepshetty I know what you mean.. but in this case if it renders the content-type better and I can save the preference, I wouldn't mind it
# sandeepshetty tantek: Thats pretty close to what I'm doing with http://activityweb.org
# sandeepshetty I agree. I'm just getting started putting my thoughts down, but you're right, the proof is in the implementation, which I'm working on :)
# sandeepshetty goes back to working on implementation
# sandeepshetty the thing I like about the current federated infrastructure that exists is that you can do this incrementally..
# sandeepshetty the doing begins with an idea :)
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# sandeepshetty what are your thought on this: https://github.com/tent/tent.io/issues/88#issuecomment-9101418
# tantek much better to use HTML link relations for discovery than "special" paths like /profile, /followings etc.
# sandeepshetty and .well-known (yucks!)
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# tommorris !tell tantek initial design work on pingbacks: http://gyazo.com/f28d71f025e75637f5009af321be2ae5 - just using your site as an example.
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# Loqi tantek: tommorris left you a message 16 minutes ago: initial design work on pingbacks: http://gyazo.com/f28d71f025e75637f5009af321be2ae5 - just using your site as an example.
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# tommorris and a post about it - http://tommorrisbeta.herokuapp.com/posts/88
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