aaronpkuh... "https://alpha.app.net/ryantharp/post/4369735" "I actually followed the instructions of his contact page, listing that IRC is his preferred method of communication and so far he refuses to engage me there." ... it was 1:30am when he posted this, I was asleep
tantekaaronpk - it's interesting that in that follow-up thread the replies changed from defending openness to admitting app.net is a closed silo and being apologists for it
aaronpkI feel like I need a disclaimer, something to the effect of "yes I know setting up a blog and using pingbacks is hard right now, everyone at indiewebcamp is working to make it easier"
tantekdonpdonp - write a post (note/article/comment) on your own site, linking to the original with rel="in-reply-to", and have your webserver send aaronpk's server a pingback/webmention accordingly.
aaronpkthank you, someone else gets it "I disagree. I don't see it as him wanting ADN to serve his purpose. I see it as wanting to enact a purposeful change. The ability of not needing an ADN account to interact is great. The email approach to a social network would be awesome" (@aj)
tantek.comedited /comment (+412) "/* How To */ your server should send pingbacks/webmentions automatically, an IndieWeb Reply button would help with automating linking to originals" (view diff)
barnabywalterstommorris: oh brilliant! that’s exactly what I want to implement — great to know this has been done before. Why is it no longer in use — were there any problems with it?
tommorristantek: by DRY in this case, I mean that every single post had the same sidebar. the reader was downloading the same blob of HTML over and over again
tommorrisalso, there's a bit of a mismatch. blogrolls are "these people are worth reading", which is different set than "people who I know/trust/am related to/work with/would fuck/would vote for/whatever"
barnabywalterswhich in itself has many interesting uses — e.g. XFN on notes + feedreader which accepts XFN as input = feed from people I’ve communicated with in the last few days
aaronpkhmm now I feel a little bad about "the fact that this was written as a blogpost rather than "engaging" to ask questions first via various mediums is not something I appreciate." -dalton
bnvkbut, the reason I did not, as I really don't think all conversations should *always* be public all the time. opposing views (hot heads and trolls) get involved and add too much noise- hence a more private method like email is needed
tantekif all you can do is write a short tweet/app.net post about it, you're likely to be an armchair commenter that doesn't get it and/or doesn't really care about being helpful, but prefers short-form snark (as evidenced by those app.net threads)
tantekthe problem of private/closed/email conversations is that they inevitably leave out constructive contributors who then may feel ignored/neglected, and worse, whatever private email club you make up will almost certainly miss good ideas from the broader set of folks working on open web things
bnvkAll I'm saying is @aaronpk intentionally made entry to IndieWebCamp limited to people who can setup their own domain first with OpenID, then IndieAuth
tantekbecause if they're not willing to put that time/energy into their own site, they're unlikely to add anything but hypotheticals/theoreticals to the conversation
bnvkDalton, et. al. is working hard and building something I think is valuable. And MOST importantly, he is totally willing to engage and try to work towards our causes- I'm willing to meet him on his terms
bnvkaaronpk: yes, "an intentional bar you have to hurdle" which is such a hurdle for so many people, they see using Facebook / Twitter as a better option
bnvkI think what he meant was "I wish Aaron had asked me some questions (in any platform) before he wrote a big blog post slamming what we're doing here"
bnvkthey created this really cool micro funding (< $20,000) monthly pot that enables developers to get paid to do development- but the process of who gets funded is voted on by the community
tommorrisit's not just that it's a snowflake API, it's a snowflake API you have to pay for... because the only people who might want to use an API are people who are building "apps"
tantekyou said "designed was so any developer COULD develop as per whatever standards / protocols they chose". so that's obviously not true. there's no "could" and there's no way to "chose".
bnvkwhat I meant by that was "if I (a developer) wanted to build some sort of syndication hub / messaging que / magic spaceship that had complete interoperability with IndieWeb services as well as App.net, a developer COULD create such a thing"
bnvkand THEN said developer COULD get community approval and votes on said piece of technology as well as a little bit money to pay bills while developing it further
tommorrisI'm sticking with ifttt. if app.net want to up their game in terms of standards compliance, I'll start giving a fuck. until then, I'll just syndicate out there using ifttt. if that breaks, fixing it will be fairly low priority.
bnvkI'm kind of obsessed with this idea that most problems humans face are really just an issue of race conditions re: the distribution of the right information at the right time
bnvkYah, Brett Slatkin, that's who I am thinking of. And I recently read the Tom Morris (at Googles) stuff about semantic web- I figured this was the same guy
hadleybeemantommorris, you're both very different people. But the challenge comes when you send emails around the same time, and my mail client only shows your names!
tommorrisone silo solution for real-life-namespace conflict that I saw was a plugin for Gmail that would pull details from Facebook and elsewhere and display it in a sidebar
tommorrisbut I don't need the semanticy stuff on my personal wiki. it's a public notetaking place for myself, and it's a way to try and not use Google Docs/Dropbox/whatnot for stuff that should be on the web
hadleybeemanIf we're making a requirements wishlist, I'd love a multiplatform interface. Something like evernote in terms of input, but accessible on the Web like a wiki. With tagging.
tantekso multi-author for a wiki is *typical* but I think framed within the current discussion, that is, a *personal* wiki, multiauthor seems like a post 1.0 type feature
tantekaaronpk - yeah! when other indiewebcampers visit town you should organize indieweb drinkups or something! Maybe Green Dragon (now that beerandblog is defunct)
hadleybeemanI'm happy with that. Also, for anyone paying attention to the new UK regulatory frameworks, it should exempt you from needing membership in the Leveson body.
tantekand for (a), editability, it might be a neat trick to write software that made any static HTML page on your site automatically "editable" if you happened to be signed in with Web Sign-in / IndieAuth
tantek2) *-date-time suffixed versions of said page in the file system (or perhaps in the YYYY/ directories), linking to latest version and previous versions with rel values
hadleybeemanYeah, the versioning topic is messy. It was originally in our charter for the Gov Linked Data working group, and we ended up not having sufficient time/resources to tackle it properly.
hadleybeemantantek: Well, when you're talking about versioning a dataset, the policy part is messy. How do you deal with changes in individual values, vs the overall dataset? Updates vs next edition of a dataset? Changes in metadata (at what point is it no longer related to the original?) etc
tommorrishadleybeeman: so the answer to that is to have some kind of zen mind-meld and see that there is no datasets, there are just resources within the dataset. ;)
tommorrisa dataset is just a strange thing we do with data where we clomp it together into zip files and distribute it to people because we haven't put it on the web properly.
tommorristantek: so, hadleybeeman works on government data, which tends to be mahoosive CSVs with a blob of metadata (who created them, which government department, when they were collected etc.)
hadleybeemantraditionally, the metadata for a blog post would be date of publication, tags, and author. (Though we're nixing author here, right?) But it sounds like you're treating that as content, tantek?
tommorristhere's plenty of stuff that's attributed to semweb people that I really hate. metadata/data distinction is one. and the idea that the world needs 'controlled vocabularies' is another.
hadleybeemanDo we really want to get in to the nature of metadata here? :) I'm taking your point that you want to consider what I've called metadata at the content level "content" for the purposes of what you're doing.
tommorrisso, Wikidata is currently debating the use of a property which tries to split the world up into 7 types. and just occasonally hexagonal pegs don't quite fit square holes. so they get firmly shoved.
tommorrisanything that doesn't fit becomes simply a 'term'. Python is a 'term', not a programming language, because they don't seem to think programming languages are 'creative works'.
barnabywalterstommorris: RE list of friends from silos without APIs, php-mf2 might do this for twitter. You can register a built in set of class conversions which will treat some of the twitter.com class names as mf2 class names
tommorristo which they say "ah, but we need it so we can work out how many articles we have about people!" - and I respond "yeah, but if the data is garbage, any statistics you derive from it will be bullshit"
tommorriswe've reached deep semweb nerdery on the thread about it. and I am in the strange position of advocating a type system based on anarchy rather than the studious work of librarians.
tommorrisand the funniest thing about it is there's some guy who is all like "yeah, nothing useful ever got built on the basis of anarchy and bottom-up categorisation"... on the data platform for Wikipedia.
hadleybeemanis torn between defending the semweb world (some use cases lend themselves to controlled vocabularies!) and agreeing that too much dictatorship doesn't fit the way we use English.
barnabywaltersHa, I found yet another inconsistency between twitter implementations — on desktop twitter.com you must be signed in to see who people follow, but it’s available to the publis on mobile.twitter.com!
tommorrisnow, lots of those will be corporate accounts and brands and crap, but... that's a lot of people we can convince to start using those URLs again. ;)
tantek"in pagination, each of the pages has *different content* and is a sequence like a list, or a series of chapters. with historical revisions, each page (typically) has mostly the *same content* with just a few changes of differences"
hadleybeemanOkay, that is significantly different. It's not just a question of order, it's a difference in the fundamental unit of text you're looking at.
tantektommorris - the only time you can put a root class name and a property class name on the same element is when the root class name is basically providing an entire object as the value of the property which then belongs to some other object higher up the tree
tantek.comedited /wiki/ (+5627) "add disambig, page type, projects, and dump my brainstorm thoughts about building new personal wiki software based on static HTML as storage" (view diff)
tantektommorris - when you get back, feel free to expand on my attempt at structuring our wiki-related discussions: http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/#Page_type and the rest of that page
Loqi tantek: aaronpk left you a message 40 minutes ago: http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2013/03/31/1/a-response-to-replies-i-received-on-my-post-an-open-challenge-to-app-net
aaronpk !tell tantek here's another one for ya! http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2013/03/31/2/this-is-what-email-would-have-looked-like
@cstanhope RT @t: conversations on email do not require creating new accounts. neither should conversations on the web. #ADN #indieweb (ttk.me t4PF2)
christopheducamp.com edited /pingback-fr (+2) "/* Voir aussi */ [[Categorie:building-blocks]] changed in [[Category:building-blocks-fr]] ... is that ok ?" (view diff)
barnabywalters aaronpk: okay, I sent the PSR-0 pull request. ping me if there are any problems :)
christopheducamp tommorris thx. rager to test pingback.me
tantek.com edited /comment (+412) "/* How To */ your server should send pingbacks/webmentions automatically, an IndieWeb Reply button would help with automating linking to originals" (view diff)
tantek donpdonp - here is a URL answer to your question about how to comment: http://indiewebcamp.com/comment#How_To
tommorris classic IndieWeb styling: http://divshot.github.com/geo-bootstrap/ ;)
bnvk aaronpk: out of curiosity did you hear about (and look into) https://directory.app.net/app/118/customwebapps-pubsubhubbub-for-adn
