#indiewebcamp 2013-06-03

2013-06-03 UTC
morrocco_mole, tantek and melodie joined the channel
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melodie hi
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melodie is there somebody here for San Francisco?
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melodie s/for/from/ :)
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Loqi melodie meant to say: is there somebody here from San Francisco?
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melodie thanks Loqi :)
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Loqi you're welcome
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melodie well, I could also ask about someone living in San Francisco or around
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tantek what's up melodie?
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melodie hi tantek I was wondering if I could get some knowledge about how the life is there, from someone who does live there.
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tantek it's pretty good! any specific questions?
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melodie I have been reading a few pages on the web
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melodie yes, I have several questions
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tantek do you have your own URL? how did you find #indiewebcamp?
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melodie pdurbin talked a lot about #indiewebcamp and told me at #crimsonfu I might find people from SF here
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tantek and from London, and Portland, and Belgium
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melodie I have several Url, one is http://linuxvillage.net a friendly bilingual forum
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melodie I am from the south of France atm
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tantek which do you use as your primary identity on the web?
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melodie I don't use them to identify myself. :)
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melodie I mostly use some masterpass tools to generate strong passwords
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melodie I login with strong passwords which I don't even know.
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melodie so how is the life in San Francisco ? Would you say it is easy to install there or around, or difficult?
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tantek there are challenges - perhaps the biggest is the bit of housing crunch we have - fairly well documented
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tantek there's a bunch of construction but it's not yet enough to meet rising demand
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melodie this is what I saw yes
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melodie how is it like to seek around further and use buses or such?
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tantek public transit is decent but not as good as other major cities like Paris and New York
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melodie in my place I have my own house, and the mortgage is pretty low. I would eventuelly go to SF to work therefore I would try to avoid spending too much while not lacking confort
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melodie about food, are there markets and or open markets where it is possible to find farm productions?
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tantek there are many farmers markets, many days of the week, many locations
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melodie at these markets would you say the prices are decent?
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tantek this is a pretty good list: http://togetherinfood.wordpress.com/s-f-farmers-markets-the-full-list/
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tantek the prices vary depending on source and season for items
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tantek there are also many nice small / local neighborhood markets
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tantek I agree it is one of the most important things
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melodie :)
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melodie are you living and working right inside SF ?
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tantek yes
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melodie are you a native? :)
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tantek I travel often and am in the bay area in general
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pdurbin melodie: told ya ;)
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tantek SF is mostly people who have moved here
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melodie pdurbin thanks! :)
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tantek hello pdurbin
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melodie tantek some websites say it is becoming cold starting 4 pm, and that there can be quite some fog, what about it?
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melodie I read here: http://jasonevanish.com/2013/01/17/25-things-i-wish-i-knew-before-moving-to-san-francisco and a large part but not all of here:
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melodie http://sfloveaffair.wordpress.com/2013/01/19/34-on-things-you-should-know-about-san-francisco
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tantek yes - everyone who lives in SF expects the temperatures to drop rapidly in the afternoon potentially and evening - thus always brings/wears layers
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tantek no matter how warm it seems, always bring an extra layer
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tantek we have interesting weather
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tantek to be sure
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pdurbin so odd that September is your warmest month
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melodie that can be nice.
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melodie which month is the coldest and how cold can it be?
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melodie doesn't like cold
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tantek hard to predict
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tantek lots of random cold days in SF
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pdurbin melodie: we need to get you a farmer's almanac ;)
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melodie is it cold and dry or cold and wet due to the sea nearby?
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melodie pdurbin good idea! :D
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tantek the temperature is so variable in SF and different neighborhood that's there's "an app" just for that
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tantek SF Climates
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melodie would you send me one?
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tantek (iOS)
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melodie tantek how did people know before personal computing popped up? :)
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tantek that's a good question that can be asked about many things.
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tantek there are pre-personal-computing/device skills that are being lost I'm sure
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melodie I'm going to try Wikipedia for the time being, just incase they have pointers
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tantek there are many good SF related articles on Wikipedia
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pdurbin melodie: when are you moving to SF?
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melodie pdurbin I have not said I am moving. I might eventually get a job there. So I want to see if I would feel like I can go there
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pdurbin oh oh
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melodie here it says: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco#Climat
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melodie the temperatures can be
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melodie 10 et 15 °C during the day in winter, and 5°C during the night
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melodie for my scaling, it's nice, not cold :)
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melodie here we can have several days in a row with -15, sometimes -5 to -10 during 2 to 4 weeks in a row.
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melodie 5°
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melodie 5ºC = 41.000ºF
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melodie -10 : 14.000ºF
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melodie tantek do you confirm the Wikipedia stating?
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melodie tantek I had a look at the webpages related to what indiewebcamp website presents, your hcard page, and the one of the other author
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melodie there is something incredible about this, is there is not one single standalone application for managing contacts which exists as Free software, and can at same time import and export successfully contacts from other free software applications
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melodie in the paste I have used "Contacts" from the pimlico project, but when the project was bought by... not sure, perhaps Intel ? no one forked the code to make it continue.
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melodie and other apps I tried are not close to be light and simple as this one was.
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pdurbin melodie: a recent discussion about managing contacts: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-05-31#t1370024722
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melodie pdurbin thank you. I look
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melodie all this looks to me like a hammer just to manage adresses
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melodie I use Evolution because it is what was the closest to get the categories back along the adresses from Contacts which does not work anymore after the numerous updates of the system. but I'm not satisfied with it, because besides I use Sylpheed as a mail client.
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melodie pdurbin the project has disappeared completely, not even a little piece of code. too bad
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melodie pdurbin how do you use YAML?
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bret i use YAML a little for my jekyll site
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melodie I have to go... thanks to pdurbin who brought me here, and thanks to tantek for all the answers! :)
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tantek returns
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tantek oops - sorry I missed the follow-up qs
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tantek yes - a good Contacts app cross-device/platform doesn't really exist AFAIK
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tantek especially one that has good support for vCard3, vCard4, hCard etc.
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pdurbin I looked at http://abook.sourceforge.net a while back but meh
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tantek pdurbin - I think the reality is that a good addressbook app is so hard, and has so many moving pieces / interactions, that it anyone attempting to design one either settles for something simple/minimal (most attempts we see), or overdesigns it so much that it never ships or gets cumbersome, or ...
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tantek ends up creating a social network instead
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tantek I believe both LinkedIn and Facebook were essentially someone's address-book-like needs made real in socialnetwork form. many individuals treat both as personal address books.
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tantek so the address book challenge may be the indieweb challenge as a whole
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bret this one is kind of neat: http://ppladdressbook.org/
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bret for git nerds
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tantek I realize that means a problem defined in terms of a previous problem, but I do think that means that to solve the address book problem we must reframe the problem and ask different questions.
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pdurbin bret: heh. "good"
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bret some unix apps are not "good"
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bret ;)
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bret 3 really awsome unix apps right now actually: sup for email ppl for contacts task for todo
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pdurbin haven't heard of "task"
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pdurbin tantek: yes, definitely hard
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bret pdurbin: taskwarrior.org/
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pdurbin oh, I think I have heard of that
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sandeepshetty is adding microformats to sandeep.io.... but does not like the idea of having to change his design to do so....
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@totally_unknown Finally moved all git repos from GitHub to GitLab #bitplaces #ownyourdata
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Garbee sandeepshetty, You shouldn't need to change your design at all.
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Garbee It may require some reworking of the selector targets in your CSS/JS depending on how things are currently setup.
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Garbee But your design should still be fully compatible besides some possible targeting issues.
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sandeepshetty The markup for the post doesn't have any info about the post
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sandeepshetty .. author
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sandeepshetty so nothing "visible" to add p-author to
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Garbee Oh, this is more of a personal twitter feed rather than a blog.
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Garbee Ok yea, that is an issue...
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sandeepshetty It's actually a little bit of both..
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Garbee Yea, this does need a theme change. :P I never realized no author informtion was present.
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barnabywalters sandeepshetty: most sane h-entry parsers will look for a root h-card if no p-author is found
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barnabywalters so on sandeep.io you can just mark up your h-card at the top
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sandeepshetty so even if it's outside the h-entry
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sandeepshetty ... ?
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barnabywalters there’s also an include pattern you can use which few parsers support but worth putting in there for the future
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barnabywalters which would allow you to use your root h-card as the author property for all your h-entries
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sandeepshetty that's interesting... where can I find info on that?
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barnabywalters http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern
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barnabywalters it’s something on the todo list for php-mf2
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barnabywalters I think glenn’s node parser handles it
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sandeepshetty anyways.. I just pushed something with some design changes... working on fixing this now: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http://www.sandeep.io/29
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barnabywalters sandeepshetty: looking good! what’s up with the url?
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sandeepshetty fix it now..
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sandeepshetty *fixed
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sandeepshetty is there a way for me to use that gravatar as the u-url for the p-author
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sandeepshetty I guess another way of asking the same thing is can I just add the h-card to same tag as my h-entry?
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barnabywalters sandeepshetty: yep, with <span class="p-author h-entry">
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barnabywalters then that span becomes a child microformat
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barnabywalters and and u-url, p-name, etc below that become properties of the child
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barnabywalters you could also use implied properties
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barnabywalters for simple h-cards involving only a name, url and/or photo
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sandeepshetty sorry did not understand (given my markup)... Where can i read up on this?
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barnabywalters http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-2-implied-properties
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sandeepshetty barnabywalters: Marked up the h-card at the top: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http://www.sandeep.io/29 is there a way to exclude the photo from the h-entry?
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barnabywalters I think that’s a php-mf2 bug/feature
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barnabywalters thanks to implied properties, it’ll look for an image and make that the u-photo
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barnabywalters but I think it’s overenthusiastic
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sandeepshetty yeah :)
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sandeepshetty so from what you were saying earlier the current implementations of webmention will pick up the first h-card as the author?
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barnabywalters certainly I think that is the case — they’ll look for a p-author on the h-entry, then fall back to the root one
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barnabywalters not sure I’m doing it for my reply contexts yet
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sandeepshetty is that a patter with microformats in general?
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sandeepshetty s/patter/pattern
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Loqi sandeepshetty meant to say: is that a pattern with microformats in general?
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barnabywalters yes, I think so
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Loqi [mention] http://www.socialbrite.org/2013/06/03/calendar-of-nonprofit-conferences-june-2013/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/Main_Page (pingback)
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sandeep.io created /User:Sandeep.io (+869) "Got around to signing in from my indieweb domain." (view diff)
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sandeep.io edited /IRC_People (-7) (view diff)
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sandeep.io edited /User:Sandeep.shetty.in () "(-805) Replaced content with "See [[User:Sandeep.io]]"" (view diff)
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sandeep.io edited /User:Sandeep.io (+0) "/* Personal Domains */" (view diff)
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sandeepshetty Looks like all set to send webmentions. Does the date have to be a specific format? http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http://www.sandeep.io/29
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barnabywalters sandeepshetty: see http://microformats.org/wiki/value-class-pattern#Date_and_time_parsing for info about mf2 datetime parsing
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barnabywalters it’s a little obscure and something I’ve been meaning to write up in a clearer, guide form for a while
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sandeepshetty Thanks...
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barnabywalters basically, <time class="dt-published" datetime="YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM:SS±TZ">human readable</time> is the holy grail ;)
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tommorris the data element is awesome too
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tommorris nobody seems to have noticed that little bit of semantic ridiculousness on my site yet
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tommorris I have this RDFa:
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tommorris <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovo-lacto_vegetarianism" property="http://schema.tommorris.org/diet#dietaryPreference" resource="http://dbpedia.org/resource/Ovo-lacto_vegetarianism" class="p-x-dietary-preference">ovo-lacto vegetarian</a>
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tommorris but I also have this:
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tommorris <data property="http://dbpedia.org/property/sexualOrientation" resource="http://dbpedia.org/resource/Homosexuality">
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tommorris why? because extravagant markup is fun.
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tommorris I need to dream up some even more extravagant RDFa for fun
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barnabywalters I’m still considering this: http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/1176/
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barnabywalters schema.org is funny
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tommorris heh
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tommorris this is what comes out of the RDFa on my site: https://gist.github.com/tommorris/5474597
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barnabywalters looks good — not sure I’m “S”emantic web-aware enough to see the joke ;)
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tommorris oh, no joke. I can publish RDFa and get out sane usable JSON. if I can stitch microformats2 into the same output, then we've got a pretty nice combined win
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tommorris basically currently can do html -> rdf -> json or html -> microformats json
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barnabywalters +1 for sane usable json — is that JSON-LD?
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tommorris yep
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tommorris but I might be able to have a unified microformats-in-JSON-LD output
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tommorris easily marked up pages (with microformats2) + custom semantics if needed (with RDFa) + JSON output. ;)
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barnabywalters woo!
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tommorris which means also that things like Schema.org, FB OG and Twitter card stuff, we could actually layer that into the HTML sanely rather than the current bolt-on method
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marjolein is away: getting some fresh air and groceries
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tantek barnabywalters, sandeepshetty, the "first h-card as author" thing is a bit of a hack and I wouldn't depend on it
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tantek rel=author is a better fallback alternative if you don't have or can't put a p-author h-card inside your h-entry
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tantek pretty sure I documented this on the wiki
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tantek yes
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/authorship
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tantek so clearly that page wasn't findable enough for you to find it and instead you brainstormed in IRC
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aaronpk whoa we have an authorship page?
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tantek what can we change about that page to make it more findable than just talking about it in IRC?
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tantek aaronpk - thanks for making my point :P
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aaronpk heh
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tantek aaronpk - yes, we have an authorship page, because someone asked the question, and I wrote it up
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aaronpk nice
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aaronpk let me link it up a bit more
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tantek in general, that should be all of our instincts
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tantek if someone asks a question about how to do something
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tantek first get the answer from the wiki
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aaronparecki.com edited /Category:building-blocks (+17) "/* Posts */ link to [[authorship]]" (view diff)
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barnabywalters if I know it’s on the wiki I point them toward that
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tantek second, if no answer is found, then see if we can brainstorm something similar to other questions/answers, here in the IRC channel
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tantek third, if we come up with anything remotely reasonable/useful, write it up as a stub on the wiki
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tantek make sense?
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aaronpk sounds like that needs to be documented on the wiki ;)
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aaronparecki.com edited /posts (+23) "/* Pieces of a Post */ link to more articles" (view diff)
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tantek editing FAQ right now
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tantek :)
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aaronpk ok there we go, now a couple things link to [[authorship]]
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aaronpk oh yea, nothing linked to it before
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tantek thanks aaronpk - that's a good way to increase discoverability
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tantek interesting
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tantek I must have just quickly written it up so it existed
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aaronpk it'd be nice if there was a recentchanges feed showing only new pages
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tommorris Special:NewPages, no?
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tommorris http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=Special:NewPages&feed=atom&hideliu=&hidepatrolled=&hidebots=&hideredirs=1&limit=50&namespace=0
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tommorris or http://indiewebcamp.com/Special:NewPages if you prefer HTML ;)
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aaronpk lovely
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tantek.com edited /FAQ (+523) "How to answer a question" (view diff)
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aaronpk why are some highlighted?
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tantek tommorris - that's pretty cool!
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sandeepshetty tantek, barnabywalters : I moved the h-card to the top because I couldn't sanely add it to h-entry given my markup: https://gist.github.com/sandeepshetty/a178561ecbeb7e03bf78
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tantek sandeepshetty - please see: http://indiewebcamp.com/authorship
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tantek though I realize that describes it from the parser perspective, not the publisher perspective
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tommorris tantek: a fellow admin I know has English Wikipedia new pages as Atom in his Google Reader. he's quite possibly mad.
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tantek tommorris - yes, that's nuts
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tantek what aggregator is *he* switching to?
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tantek or she
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tommorris dunno, haven't spoken to them for a while
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tantek oh you said he - nm
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sandeepshetty tantek: I saw that... was asking if there was a way to do with inside the h-entry given my markup (gist)
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tantek sandeepshetty - certainly looks like it since you're already embedding your avatar next to your post!
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tantek this: class="media post"
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tantek is a big clue since it says POST
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tantek to turn it into
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tantek class="media post h-entry"
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tantek then this part: <a class="pull-left" href="#">
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tantek wait what's the "#" for? that's a bad URL
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tantek do you mean "/" ?
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sandeepshetty That's something I have to fix...
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tantek anyway then that's would you'd use for the p-author h-card
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tantek <a class="pull-left p-author h-card" href="/">
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tantek and then your img is missing an alt also (which is bad)
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tantek which you should use to put your name
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sandeepshetty tantek: can you edit the gist so I can see the diff?
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tantek oh look I can do that :)
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sandeepshetty :)
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tantek is still "new" at github
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barnabywalters argh why is realtime collaborative editing and forking of actual webpages still not a thing
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barnabywalters wasn’t there a demo at a previous IWC of something like that?
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tommorris remembers getting a beta invite to Github by sending in a patch to the Rails textmate bundle
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tantek sandeepshetty do you really want the tags to be inside all of the e-content p-name p-summary ?
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tantek is almost done editing
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sandeepshetty yeah I see them as part of the content... like on twtter..
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tantek barnabywalters - sortof - that was the concept that inspired the Federated Distributed Wiki that Ward did
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tantek concept came from me venting at lunch during OSBridge: http://tantek.com/2011/174/t1/read-fork-write-merge-web-osb11
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sandeepshetty BTW, I like include pattern http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern it reduces a lot of redundancy...
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tantek sandeepshetty - ok cool I wanted to check with you before making any changes
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barnabywalters tantek: speak of the devil — I’ve just deployed that for Vísar and am writing a blog post about deploying it to heroku using node instead of Sinatra
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tantek deployed what?
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barnabywalters SFW
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tantek barnabywalters - btw we are missing a page for that - could you create a stub?
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tantek sandeepshetty - how do I issue a pull request for this gist (I forked and edited, how do I send it back to your gist?)
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barnabywalters tantek: http://indiewebcamp.com/Smallest_Federated_Wiki ?
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tantek barnabywalters - that's the *session* from 2011
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sandeepshetty I should be able to see it...
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barnabywalters tantek: what do I need to add to it?
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Loqi I agree
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sandeepshetty I see 2 forks from you
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barnabywalters I don’t actually know much about the project — currently trying to wrap my brain around it
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tantek.com edited /Smallest_Federated_Wiki (+129) "stub, provide context, session notes only (for now), see also" (view diff)
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sandeepshetty tantek: is this the one: https://gist.github.com/tantek/955479f5d00e5d313650/revisions
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tantek yes - how did you find it?
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tantek so I don't need to do anything?
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@sandeepshetty "The Read Write Web is no longer sufficient. I want the Read Fork Write Merge Web." -@tantek http://tantek.com/2011/174/t1/read-fork-write-merge-web-osb11 #indieweb
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sandeepshetty I just followed the link to the forks and saw the revisions...
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tantek ok I deleted the empty fork/revision
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tantek sandeepshetty ok that's pretty cool
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barnabywalters woah, the tantek-head in that read-fork-write-merge note is pretty big — is that old styling?
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sandeepshetty ah didn't realize I could use the alt text... my bad... I was skip reading the microformats stuff... is that something I would have found if I read it properly?
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tantek.com edited /Smallest_Federated_Wiki (+327) "stub Project Description with questions" (view diff)
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barnabywalters sandeepshetty: to be fair the mf2 stuff is not at all beginner friendly yet
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tantek.com created /SFW (+37) "r" (view diff)
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tantek barnabywalters - yes, old CSS with new HTML :)
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tantek sandeepshetty - it's ok, microformats are easy enough to learn incrementally by example as you need new features.
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tantek incrementally *learn
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barnabywalters tantek: what is the process for turning the mf2 brainstorming into more concrete pages e.g. the ones classic microformats have?
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tantek barnabywalters, the simple/introductory examples at the top of http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2 do show how to use img alt though
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tantek barnabywalters - 1. we gain more experience with them, 2. have to create pages for them that are at least as modernly structured/styled as the hCard page
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tantek hardest part right now is that latter
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tantek since the spec structure/styling update (as hCard is an example of) is still a bit in progress
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tantek so that's a bottleneck (on me :/ )
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barnabywalters tantek: is it something we can help with? if so how?
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tantek.com edited /projects (+31) "/* hacks */ link SFW to main article, fix otherhacks heading" (view diff)
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tantek barnabywalters - designing usable spec authoring structuring and styling is probably one of the hardest problems in standards
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barnabywalters certainly I feel that we have enough experience publishing h-card and h-entry to give them their own pages
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barnabywalters explaining actually what all the properties mean
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tantek barnabywalters - yes I'd agree
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tantek do you see how http://microformats.org/wiki/hCard is structured? (at least mostly, I'm still working my way through redesigning/updating the document)
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barnabywalters I have been meaning to publish a series of blog posts covering some basic mf2 usage in guide/tutorial form for a while
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barnabywalters inspects
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tantek barnabywalters - how much experience have you had with reading / implementing specs from different publishers? E.g. W3C, IETF, WHATWG, microformats.org etc.
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barnabywalters not an awful lot — I’ve read W3C and mf.org specs, developers.whatwg.org is my go-to reference for html5 but not sure it counts as a spec in terms of structure
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barnabywalters never actually looked closely at how they were structured
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tantek it's a big problem
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tantek most specs are horribly structured
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tantek too hard to read
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tantek too hard to figure out what to do as a publisher/parser etc.
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tantek intimidating to authors
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tantek etc.
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barnabywalters agreed on all points, esp intimidation
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tantek I've been explicitly redesigning/restructuring http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard as an example of how to do it right (friendly, quickly usable) and avoid all those problems.
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tantek so let's start there
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tantek would appreciate your feedback on how to incrementally improve *that*
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barnabywalters tantek: writing SFW-on-heroku-node article right now, I’ll get back to you in a min
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tantek in the mean time, perhaps it is time to create some simple stubs for /h-card /h-entry that at least shows an example in markup and lists the properties with short phrase / one-sentence descriptions
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tantek we can perhaps grow them incrementally
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tantek.com edited /Smallest_Federated_Wiki (+709) "add to Project Description based on summary on projects page" (view diff)
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tantek barnabywalters - np
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tantek I just updated http://indiewebcamp.com/Smallest_Federated_Wiki with a bunch of links/context
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tantek done editing it
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tantek please feel free to continue editing it as you see fit
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tantek thanks!
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tantek aaronpk, barnabywalters - are either you in touch with Ward? please be sure to ping him about IndieWebCamp 2013!
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tantek.com edited /Smallest_Federated_Wiki (+295) "link to posting of lunch conversation inspiration" (view diff)
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barnabywalters tantek: I hang out in their G+ meetups sometimes — last time Ward said he was planning on doing IWC every other year as it interferes with a traditional family holiday time IIRC
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tantek oh darn - that sucks to interfere with that
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sandeepshetty tantek: just saw the alt example... like I said my bad for skip reading... plus I was so focused on making the name inside the .media-heading part of the h-card that I dodn't think of anything else...
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tantek I know he couldn't make it last year due to that
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tantek but is it the same this year?
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tantek barnabywalters - just ping him about the dates (and if he's going to OSBridge)
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barnabywalters tantek: I think he said his compromise was to alternate
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tantek like he schedule his family thing right after OSbridge? or the timing is a coincidence or?
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tantek sandeepshetty - ah, makes sense
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tantek hope the edited gist helps!
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tantek but in general your instinct is correct
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tantek you shouldn't have to alter your design
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sandeepshetty a lot! just pushing these changes and then onward to sending a webmention :)
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Loqi agreed.
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tantek what Garbee said essentially :)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /Smallest_Federated_Wiki (+734) "/* Project Description */ Added links to sandbox, videos, deployment guides" (view diff)
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sandeepshetty barnabywalters: I'm guessing the keyword here is one?: "has but *one* child element that is an image" - http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-2-implied-properties#hyperlinked_image_and_name_photo_url_properties
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sandeepshetty if that's the case I'm guessing this needs a count() check? https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2/blob/e752d2d0e556c3d20c2a9eb7e001aef95ce0f637/mf2/Parser.php#L556
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sandeepshetty Re the weird photo property I'm seeing here: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http://www.sandeep.io/29
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barnabywalters sandeepshetty: yes that is the one
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barnabywalters I think I’m currently checking for one *image* child, not one child which is an image
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barnabywalters yes, a quick test shows that is what’s happening
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sandeepshetty so a count() check shoudl fix it right?
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barnabywalters sandeepshetty: no, I have to change the xpath too
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barnabywalters actually the phrasing on the wiki is unclear, both my current implementation and the correct logic could be inferred from it
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barnabywalters fixed
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sandeepshetty on pin13?
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barnabywalters barnabywalters: I fixed the phrasing on the wiki
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barnabywalters currently writing a sad path test case and fixing in php-mf2
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sandeepshetty awesome
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aaronpk barnabywalters: sandeepshetty: fyi pin13 updates from php-mf2 master every hour, so if you change the parser and push it'll pick it up :)
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sandeepshetty aaronpk: so pin13 is you?
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barnabywalters aaronpk: sandeepshetty: pushed to v0.1.14 with tests and fixes
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aaronpk yea, it's a random assortment of links and a place I put stuff temporarily sometimes
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barnabywalters currently updating my UI (taking a while because I’ve been working out of a majorly changed branch and I have to reinstall a bunch of stuff)
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sandeepshetty That commit reminds me that I need to do a deep dive into xpath soon...
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aaronpk ugh xpath
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aaronpk if you're in PHP land, barnaby showed me a cool CSS->xpath thing
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sandeepshetty so for sending the webmention, I was thinking I'll just take the (html) rendered markdown and look for a tags in it.
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sandeepshetty instead of regex
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aaronpk that's what I do, except I only look for links within the h-entry so I don't ping stuff linked in my footer and sidebar
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barnabywalters aaronpk: same
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sandeepshetty and your using this css->xpath thing you mentioned?
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barnabywalters okay, http://waterpigs.co.uk/php-mf2 is updated to v0.1.14 with the above bugs fixed
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aaronpk no I'm using a regex actually https://github.com/aaronpk/mention-client
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aaronpk barnabywalters: is that pushed to master?
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barnabywalters so that’s 30 mins turnaround including working on other stuff and reinstalling dependencies — not too bad, but want to get it better
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barnabywalters aaronpk: to master also
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sandeepshetty :)
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barnabywalters tags are for composer
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aaronpk nice. so pin13 should have it soon too
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sandeepshetty aaronpk: ah I was going to dive mention client in a bit...
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sandeepshetty aaronpk: don't see any h-entry stuff...
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sandeepshetty unless $sourceBody is just the h-entry
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aaronpk yea, mention-client just takes a chunk of HTML, it's up to you what you give it
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aaronpk I parse out my h-entry before handing it off to mention-client
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sandeepshetty which means $sourceBody is not passed it will send to all ping on $sourceURL?
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sandeepshetty argh... my hand is not moving as fast as my ming...
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sandeepshetty s/ming/mind
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Loqi sandeepshetty meant to say: argh... my hand is not moving as fast as my mind...
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aaronpk correct
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sandeepshetty I like the $sourceURL approach... makes the lib complete external and loosely coupled
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aaronpk I'd be up for modifying it to optionally parse the HTML looking for an h-entry. shouldn't be too hard to make it depend on php-mf2.
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sandeepshetty yeah that would be nice
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aaronpk seems like a reasonable piece to take on. would still be loosely coupled
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sandeepshetty so what is this css->xpath thingy?
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aaronpk https://github.com/symfony/CssSelector
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aaronpk http://symfony.com/doc/master/components/css_selector.html
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tantek scrolls up
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aaronpk i.e. turns 'div.item > h4 > a' into "descendant-or-self::div[contains(concat(' ',normalize-space(@class), ' '), ' item ')]/h4/a"
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tantek barnabywalters, sandeepshetty - re: one image child vs. one child image - what's the confusion again?
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tantek I don't understand
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tantek note that when in doubt - please consult the parsing spec for precision: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing#parsing_for_implied_properties
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tantek and let me know if you think the parsing spec is not consistent with your understanding of how it "should" work (by whatever intuition you have - I want to know what your mental model is and how it works)
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barnabywalters tantek: php-mf2 now follows that spec, in a different document the wording was less rigid
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barnabywalters the confusion was between one child image element and one child element AND that child is an image
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barnabywalters as opposed to two child elements, one of which was an image
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barnabywalters the parsing spec is clear, the other document wasn’t, and php-mf2 was implementing the wrong one
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tantek yeah I wanted to keep it more restrictive
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tantek oh weird
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tantek why did php-mf2 implement a prose document rather than the parsing spec?
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sandeepshetty tantek: see http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http://www.sandeep.io/29
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sandeepshetty it's picking up my gravatar as a photo for the post
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tantek ohhhh
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tantek good catch sandeepshetty!
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barnabywalters tantek: I probably read the prose document before the parsing spec, implemented it (working) then never wrote tests against the stricter spec
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tantek barnabywalters - that reveals a deeper problem in php-mf2 (maybe)
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tantek that img is not a direct descendant
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tantek of the post
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tantek how is it showing up at all?!?
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barnabywalters wait, what
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tantek it's inside the h-card so it shouldn't have *any* impact on the h-entry post outside it!
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tantek each microformat is like a wrapper for its properties - its properties / child elements should not be able to leak up to its parent / ancestors / containing microformats
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barnabywalters tantek: I believe sandeepshetty’s markup has changed since he discovered the bug
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tantek oh ok
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tantek I'll wait til the markup stabilizes and then we can take another look
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sandeepshetty what your seeing now is the latest version..
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sandeepshetty not making any changes now to the markup...
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sandeepshetty it's got all the changes suggested by tantek
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barnabywalters sandeepshetty: and parses beautifully :)
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barnabywalters any chance of a higher resolution datetime?
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sandeepshetty yep will be doing that soon... makes no sense without a timezone
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barnabywalters great stuff
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barnabywalters I’ll try replying to one of your notes, see what the reply context looks like
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sandeepshetty no wait.. i haven't implemented webmention yet
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sandeepshetty once I'm done I'll send you a :like: to the gurdy post
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barnabywalters sandeepshetty: :like: ? why the colons?
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barnabywalters and how are you marking that up/publishing it?
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sandeepshetty see the 5th use-case here: https://github.com/converspace/recentchanges/blob/master/README.md
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sandeepshetty I'm experimenting :)
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tantek what :like: ?
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sandeepshetty just my way of sending a like
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barnabywalters sending? so does it have a URL on your site?
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aaronpk my "likes" will have URLs
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sandeepshetty it will... it'll be a post with your post url as the in-reply-to and the :like:
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aaronpk i'm implementing the new URL scheme for them right now :)
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sandeepshetty ?
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sandeepshetty tell me more :)
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aaronparecki.com edited /p3k (-2) (view diff)
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aaronpk http://indiewebcamp.com/p3k#Favorite_.2F_Like_.2F_Star_.2F_etc (sorry for the icky url)
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barnabywalters aaronpk: looking forward to seeing how you’re laying them out!
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aaronpk new URL scheme: http://pk.dev/something/2013/06/02/092308/slug (note the full timestamp in the URL)
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sandeepshetty why do you need a new url scheme?
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sandeepshetty the webmention is taken care of by a regular post
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aaronpk oh, just for URLs on my own site
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sandeepshetty and you can always tag it with #like/#fav?
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sandeepshetty sorry din't understand...
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sandeepshetty is this like a diff post type?
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aaronpk sorta
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sandeepshetty is there a rel="like"?
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aaronpk right now my URLs are date+index. I need to change to date+timestamp in order for this to work properly. doesn't really matter to anybody else, it's just how i'm organizing things internally
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sandeepshetty That's interesting... a use case for time in the url
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sandeepshetty i might just go with date+timestamp when i drop the db
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@TerroirCamp @ludovicroif @JSeillier : il y a plusieurs mondes numériques ;-) #dflab #indieweb #opensource
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sandeepshetty not in the url but in the storage
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aaronpk yea, it's a strange artifact of the fact all my posts are files on disk
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aaronpk and because I now want to be able to create posts out of time order
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sandeepshetty doesnt the file time have that already?
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aaronpk yes, but when I retrieve the "latest N posts" I don't want to have to open all the files to sort them
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barnabywalters aaronpk: this is the reason I’m taking the combined DB and filesystem approach — the filesystem does what it does best (storing files) and the DB does what it does best (flexible querying)
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tantek aaronpk - my approach to the out of order posts problem was to segment the order by type
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aaronpk tantek: not sure I understand
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tantek figuring I wouldn't ever post notes / articles / photos themselves out of order with other notes / articles / photos respectively
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tantek hence DDDkNN
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aaronpk ah
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tantek so each post type k
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tantek gets its own numerical increment NN
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aaronpk yea I'm about to add a whole bunch of different types of data, and wanted it to all be part of the same feed
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tantek allows me to independently decide how each is stored etc.
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tantek without having to do a global redesign for each new post type or if I modify how it's posted or stored
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tantek bbiab
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sandeepshetty ok I still don't the reason for differenet post types?
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aaronpk tantek's reason or mine?
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sandeepshetty anyones yet.. I remember tantek telling me it's a personal preference..
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sandeepshetty not sure about the other..
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aaronpk yea. I currently have article/note/reply. I'm about to add a whole bunch like sleep/weight/location/steps/activity/favorite/bookmark
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sandeepshetty IIRC, I think tantek also mentioned ux... user centered design...
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sandeepshetty aaronpk: to me that is just the addition of tags.. #sleep #weight
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aaronpk yea, I'm not going to make a new top-level type for each
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sandeepshetty for example I have bookmarks: http://www.sandeep.io/bookmarks/
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aaronpk which is why I'm facing the insert-out-of-order issue
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aaronpk which is why I'm adding timestamps to the URL and to the filename on disk
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sandeepshetty if they are files on disk they should be time ordered right?
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sandeepshetty is the problem of going through the other types a big deal in terms of time?
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barnabywalters sandeepshetty: IIRC you can’t rely on that information sticking around — copy/paste the file or migrate it and it’s gone
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aaronpk my goal is to not have to open files in order to find the N newest
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sandeepshetty with the hybrid approach like barnabywalters, the db can give you that easily
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aaronpk yea I'm also trying to avoid a DB as long as possible :)
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barnabywalters aaronpk: an admirable goal!
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sandeepshetty I was thinking of going with sqlite for the index
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aaronpk also even if I didn't change my URL scheme, the numbered indexes like I currently have wouldn't make sense even if there was no technical issue with them
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sandeepshetty AFAIK, you already have scripts to build indexes/frontpage...
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aaronpk true, I could treat all my feeds as indexes
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sandeepshetty adding it to sqlite is just an extenstion of that
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aaronpk not actually a bad idea
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barnabywalters aaronpk: if you would like to give a hybrid approach a go, I’ve open sourced the library I’m using
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barnabywalters it’s a bit weird and limited, but I’m liking it so far
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sandeepshetty aaronpk, barnabywalters: just remember I had bookmarked this a while ago http://code.google.com/p/phpquery/
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barnabywalters then again, going with redbean would probably give you better results
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aaronpk here's my current filesystem for notes: http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3692/8939025445_ed4d8c9807_o.png
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aaronpk here is the new format i'm considering http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7406/8939031907_761c56e10e_o.png
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sandeepshetty barnabywalters: Where is your lib? https://github.com/barnabywalters?tab=repositories
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barnabywalters sandeepshetty: http://github.com/taproot/librarian
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sandeepshetty ah yes you have an org
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barnabywalters https://github.com/Taproot/librarian/blob/master/librarianApiNoodling.php is probably the most interesting bit
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sandeepshetty oh... you've gone all NoSQL
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barnabywalters nope, all PDO :)
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sandeepshetty now that redbean ref makes sense..
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sandeepshetty I meant there's no schema right?
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sandeepshetty https://github.com/Taproot/librarian/blob/master/librarianApiNoodling.php#L40
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sandeepshetty oh wait my bad...
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sandeepshetty missed the setup...
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barnabywalters sandeepshetty: roughly speaking. You specify which properties you want indexed. They’re independent of the actual data
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aaronpk hm i may have to take a look at this again
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sandeepshetty quick back to my original question... aaronpk: why the diff posts then?
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barnabywalters I’m running it in my test environment, almost ready to push live
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aaronpk sandeepshetty: what do you mean?
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barnabywalters just need to get /articles and /music using it
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sandeepshetty aaronpk: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-06-03#t1370284450
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aaronpk ah
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aaronpk i'm making a single new post type for all my quantified self data
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aaronpk so most of those will fall into that type. I'll have articles/notes/replies and something else, haven't figured out what to call it yet
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sandeepshetty and why do you have the distinction between article/notes?
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aaronpk briefly described here http://indiewebcamp.com/p3k#Notes_vs_Articles
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aaronpk and some other people wrote about their distinctions here http://indiewebcamp.com/Semantics_Of_Article-Note_Distinction
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sandeepshetty I've seen the later.. Have added my take to it as well..
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aaronpk i may need to add an example in mine
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aaronpk to make it clearer
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sandeepshetty Is the distinction based on the fact that your writing one as html and one as plain text?
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aaronpk no
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sandeepshetty based on where it is syndicated to?
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aaronpk example: twitter treats everything as plaintext. so if I have html on my site that contains 'Link to <a href="http://example.com/">Example Site</a>' and want to post that to twitter, it would be rendered as 'Link to Example Site' and I would lose the href
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aaronpk the same is true when I syndicate to other peoples' sites here. also when I pull in content from others' sites, I only pull in plaintext
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sandeepshetty write that's what I mean with my first question...
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sandeepshetty s/mean/meant
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Loqi sandeepshetty meant to say: write that's what I meant with my first question...
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sandeepshetty I write in markdown and just syndicate markdown to twitter...
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aaronpk I don't want to syndicate markdown to twitter or others' sites
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aaronpk [Example Site](http://example.com) is quite possibly the ugliest thing around
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sandeepshetty so where it's syndicated doesn't matter and since I write both long-form and small updates in markdwon I don't see the difference..
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aaronpk at least mediawiki has a somewhat sane link syntax: [http://example.com Example Site]
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aaronpk nobody wants to read that. that's source code, even if it's slightly nicer looking than html.
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sandeepshetty sure I'm looking to replace markdown but I guess it's because I write in it and don't mind syndicating it (or hand-editing what I don't like) I don't see the diff between the two
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aaronpk i write all my articles in markdown, but you don't have to know that
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aaronpk i write my notes like i write tweets
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aaronpk if i'm going to share a link, the URL will be in the note text
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sandeepshetty is busy implementing webmention on sandeep.io
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aaronpk excellent. send me some pings too!
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tantek aaronpk, barnabywalters, sandeepshetty - re: post types
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tantek in general, we should avoid creating new post types
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tantek both personally and as a community
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tantek simpler is better and all that
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tantek I think the key is whenever you *think* you have something new to post, try posting it as your simplest existing post type
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tantek which I think are "notes"
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tantek maybe with tags, e.g. what barnabywalters does with steps, and sandeepshetty does with tags as well
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tantek and then document why/how that doesn't work if you run into problems
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tantek document *on the wiki*
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tantek one reason why it might "not work" is that you really want to present it differently, provide a specific UX for a particular kinds of posts
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tantek in fact, that really should be the *primary* reason that drives any desire to create new post types
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tantek if you're not doing custom UX for the post type, then you don't have a new post type. just use a note or article
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sandeepshetty tantek: What's a good example of post types that *need* custom UX?
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sandeepshetty is :( because indieweb libs he can reuse use OO :p
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tantek sandeepshetty OO is a fundamentally flawed methodology
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tantek it tricks you into thinking you can model the world abstractly, instead of user-first.
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sandeepshetty plus there's so much noise!
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sandeepshetty Since PHP 5.3 (closures) I haven't felt the need to use OO and have been building a small collection of non-OO libs: https://github.com/phpish/
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sandeepshetty tantek: In case you missed it: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-06-03#t1370287852
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aaronpk whoa neat collection
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aaronpk tantek: yes I agree re: post types
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aaronpk however even if I do publish my steps as a "note" I still don't want it in my /notes feed
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aaronpk so even if it's published as a note in terms of markup and formatting, I will still make that distinction
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tantek sandeepshetty++
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Loqi sandeepshetty has 1 karma
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tantek for: "building a small collection of non-OO libs: https://github.com/phpish/"
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tantek woot!
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Loqi :D
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tommorris aaronpk: so, my posting UI - http://cl.ly/image/1f09252g3l1M - see the "twitter" tickbox. there may be more of them soon. ;)
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tantek sandeepshetty - I'm building a small collection of non-OO functions: https://github.com/tantek/cassis
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tantek :)
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aaronpk tommorris: w00t
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tantek aaronpk - you can filter things by tag
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tantek re: still don't want it in my /notes feed
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tommorris has been doing some OO recently and it has worked reasonably well.
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tommorris but then it is for a back-end corporate database system... ;)
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aaronpk heh
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aaronpk I use classes but mostly just as a way to namespace functions
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barnabywalters aaronpk: big advantage of that technique is that you get autoloading
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barnabywalters (in PHP)
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aaronpk yea, I actually decided to stop using autoloading a couple years ago
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barnabywalters interesting, why?
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aaronpk can't remember exactly anymore, heh
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tantek sandeepshetty re: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-06-03#t1370287852
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tantek all of the current ones we've deployed :)
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tantek so for me personally:
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tantek notes, articles, comics
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tantek each of those pages on the wiki documents what about the UX is special for that post type
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tantek and provides links to real world examples thereof
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tantek aaronpk - delayed thanks! re: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-06-03#t1370288892
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tantek in that case, that's enough vote of approval for me to add that to the page
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tantek.com edited /posts (+1300) "New Post Types - in general avoid, why and how" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk - make sense? http://indiewebcamp.com/posts#New_Post_Types
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tantek sandeepshetty - does this address your question(s) about post types? http://indiewebcamp.com/posts#New_Post_Types
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aaronpk is really liking the new highlighting of the linked line numbers in the IRC logs
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aaronpk tantek: so I separate notes and replies in my presentation and feeds, but both are marked up as notes. is that worth documenting as a possible alternative to creating a new post type on that page?
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tantek aaronpk - that's one of the examples I gave!
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aaronpk ah so you did!
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tantek so I think what we need to do is separate /reply vs. /comments
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tantek and start a new /reply ( /replies redirect ) article that is specifically about the implied reply post type
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tantek perhaps that's the way we should talk about them
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tantek explicit vs. implicit post types
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tantek note and article are explicit
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tantek reply is implicit
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tantek is going to grab some lunch
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sandeepshetty scrolls up
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tommorris so, Twitter seems to be down. ;)
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tommorris if only there were some alternative
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sandeepshetty tantek: Re cassis, I have it on my today to look into it for stuff like the newbase60 funcs and I remember thinking "woah! those comment hacks look interesting" when I saw it first
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sandeepshetty aaronpk: php now has namespaces, so you don't need classes for namespaces anymore.
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aaronpk yea I suppose that's true
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pdurbin finally ;)
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aaronpk every now and then I do want to extend a class to add stuff to it tho
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sandeepshetty inheritance is evil :D
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sandeepshetty lots of coupling...
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sandeepshetty prefer composition
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aaronpk well yea that's the point! I have a Category base class, and two types of categories extend my base class. that sounds very coupled to me
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aaronpk the subclasses just define different regexes and a few variables. the base class does all the logic
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sandeepshetty is looking at tantek.com to see the ux difference between article, note, comic
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sandeepshetty agress with aaronpk: the highlighting of the linked line numbers in the IRC logs is cool!
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sandeepshetty aaronpk: are you doing the highlighting on the server-side?
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sandeepshetty it doesn't work when I click on an anchor after the page has loaded but that might be a common use-case... I miss it though...
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sandeepshetty I meant *might not*
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tantek yeah I saw that problem too
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tantek the highlighting should be using the :target pseudo-class
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sandeepshetty aaronpk: RE inheritance... you can do with closures... create a func that returns a func
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sandeepshetty tantek: I can't seem to find articles from your homepage...
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tantek sandeepshetty - yeah, archive nav is on the to do list :/
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sandeepshetty so the comic and note don't look that diff..
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sandeepshetty except for the inline img
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tantek sandeepshetty - they're VERY different
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tantek depending on *where* you look at them
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tantek also, here's an example article: http://tantek.com/2013/001/b1/twelve-blog-post-writing-tips
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tantek :)
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tantek e.g. in aggregators, note and comic look VERY different
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tantek compared to web view
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tantek (mostly because aggregators are dumb, but hey, that's the status quo)
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sandeepshetty On your site they don't look that different to me...
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sandeepshetty the markup/micoformats might be different...
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tantek sandeepshetty - very
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sandeepshetty but does it need to be?
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tantek comics have a lot of markup structure (necessary to represent the information), notes don't
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tantek sandeepshetty - when there's essential textual post content in an image - yes
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tantek look at it in Google Reader for example
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tantek you'll see a different view
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tantek or whatever aggregator you use
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tantek sandeepshetty - note also that part of that essential text is the name of the post - in the image!
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tantek notes are unnamed
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tantek so that's a big difference
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sandeepshetty you mean the object "title" by "textual post content"?
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tantek comics are closer to articles than notes
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tantek nah, I haven't even gotten to title attributes
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tantek or how they're best handled
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tantek I just put that in there in XKCD style
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sandeepshetty BTW, it's annoying that you can't click the object... (I was trying to inspect)
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tantek sandeepshetty - agreed that that's annoying
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sandeepshetty *right-click
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tantek sandeepshetty - what do you expect to happen when you click it?
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tantek bbiab
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sandeepshetty I was trying to right-click on it to inspect the dom but it's all just dead space.
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tantek about just "click"?
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sandeepshetty I'm ok if it's not clickable...
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sandeepshetty just saw the child nodes of object ..
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tantek bbiab
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sandeepshetty tantek: All that stuff inside object is not visible... so why not just regular html with display:none?
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sandeepshetty (by regular I mean not-object)
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tantek Welcome JonathanNeal!
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tantek sandeepshetty - incorrect. all that stuff in the object IS visible to feed readers, search engines, non-visual user agents. etc.
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JonathanNeal Thanks tantek. I hear you have banned stakes to burn me at.
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tantek yeah we save those for silo apologists
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aaronpk silo apologists!! lol!
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tantek aaronpk, I know, right?
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sandeepshetty tantek: Couldn't you do the same with hidden divs?
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tantek sandeepshetty - why are you suggesting a worse solution? (*hidden*)
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sandeepshetty I was thinking it's *hidden* in the same way the object children are: to browsers but not to aggregators, (not sure about) search engines, (not sure about) non-visual user agents
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sandeepshetty rather i don't understand why it's a worse solution... looking to learn why it's worse...
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tantek it's not hidden, it's fallback content
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tantek they're different
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tantek e.g. http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/DefinitionFallBackContent
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JonathanNeal What is the primary difference between the web and the indie web?
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tantek JonathanNeal - independence and independents
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tantek is good at expanding abbreviations like "Indie" :)
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JonathanNeal So, the indie web is the web as built and contributed to by individuals.
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tantek who are typically /creators who are /selfdogfooding
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/creators
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/selfdogfood
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JonathanNeal Cool, I suppose I qualify based on my own expectations then.
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aaronpk also people building their own identities online
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aaronpk rather than a website for a company or project, etc
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JonathanNeal Oh, maybe I don't then. I see.
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tantek aaronpk - it can be in addition to, instead of rather than
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tantek JonathanNeal - here's a good test: add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC-people
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JonathanNeal I build things for everybody, but I don't market myself.
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aaronpk yes, a lot of it still applies. we've just been very focused on individual websites for now
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tantek JonathanNeal - selfdogfooding is a core principle of the indieweb
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pdurbin what if I register durbin.com and I'm p.durbin.com and my brother is t.durbin.com ... would that be considered building my own identity?
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tantek that might be the missing piece you're looking for
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tantek pdurbin - seems to fit the spirit
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JonathanNeal microformats stuffs
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tantek JonathanNeal - on the indieweb, microformats stuff are just the most efficient way to get things done.
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tantek since when you selfdogfood, in general you don't have time to waste with all the overly complex alternatives
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JonathanNeal And here I was using http://humanstxt.org/
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tantek unless of course, wasting time with overly complex alternatives is a hobby
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tantek humanstxt is one of the dumbest things I've seen in a while
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tantek sorry to say
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tantek in short, it's a DRY violation
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JonathanNeal It's a violation?
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tantek you've already got an about or contact page. you don't need to redundantly create a humanstxt page
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tantek yeah - it's a classic mistake
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JonathanNeal It's something for developers by developers to express themselves.
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tantek because they can't express themselves on a /about page?
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tantek or a /authors page?
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pdurbin tantek: ok. I figured
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JonathanNeal Not in the same way. Like "animal style" is to In&Out, it's the well known off menu item.
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JonathanNeal http://html5boilerplate.com/humans.txt
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JonathanNeal http://otpa.org/humans.txt
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tantek JonathanNeal - meh. one-off text format. boring and dead-end.
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tantek oh look the text doesn't wrap
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JonathanNeal I've never seen you so opinionated. Interesting. Well, I'll go rel myself.
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tantek plain text is only "human" to developers and folks pre-web
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tantek and "humans.txt" is poorly named as well
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tantek it's more like colophon.txt: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colophon_%28publishing%29
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JonathanNeal It's about having fun, it's named like robots.txt
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tantek JonathanNeal - I don't have time to debunk every bad standards idea
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tantek so mostly I just ignore them figuring they'll rot and go away with the inevitable entropy of time
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JonathanNeal it's too indie for standards
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aaronpk really? this is one of the less-opinionated tantek's ive seen
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tantek aaronpk :)
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JonathanNeal Is this a room to discuss <subline> and <main> in too?
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JonathanNeal Or the thought experiment of dropping all <div> elements for the more agnostic <span> element, intensifying our reliance on proper class name usage?
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JonathanNeal I'll take that as a yes, citing Thomas Moore.
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tantek bbiab
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sandeepshetty !tell tantek: Makes sense re fallback content vs hidden.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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JonathanNeal ?tell tantek: Really? Protocol required? https://indieauth.com/auth?me=jonathantneal.com
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pdurbin JonathanNeal: humans.txt does look kinda fun
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aaronpk or you could just make a nice looking /about page
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reidab I thought the whole point of humans.txt was giving the people who did the work credit in a context where they were making a non-personal site
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reidab like, giving the designers and developers credit on a commercial site
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tantek reidab so it's a political solution
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tantek because the powers-that-be that decide about the commercial site refuse to let them build a /colophon.html page that describes all the humans.txt content
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reidab that's kinda how i see it
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Loqi DESCRIBES ALL THE HUMANS http://loqi.me/7Ny
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tantek disempowered-creators.txt
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reidab but I agree that having a colophon link is more appropriate
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reidab :)
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tantek sad
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reidab or just HTML comments
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tantek "some URL that marketing won't care about"
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reidab or meta tags
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tantek marketing cares about those now, thanks to OGP, TwitterCards, and all the other SEO/SEM metacrap
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reidab oh right
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sandeepshetty I like how the team page is h-team :) http://humanstxt.org/H-team.html
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sandeepshetty microformats envy?
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tantek sandeepshetty - that. is. hilarious. good catch.
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sandeepshetty It's also interesting how (*h-friends*) http://humanstxt.org/H-friends.html with its (human friends & geek friends) is richer than http://humanstxt.org/humans.txt (which only has a thanks sections)
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sandeepshetty not to mention the inconsistencies between the two lists.
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sandeepshetty so what's the context to this: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-06-03#t1370293846
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@tabatkins @unconed Devoting most of your words to shaming people who use your CoC doesn't seem productive. Why not just http://indiewebcamp.com/code-of-conduct-why ?
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@tabatkins @unconed Bah, wrong link: http://indiewebcamp.com/code-of-conduct (but I guess the link I gave you is a nice read, too).
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tantek sandeepshetty - we were discussing http://indiewebcamp.com/code-of-conduct and http://indiewebcamp.com/code-of-conduct-why
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tantek and well done with pointing out the internal inconsistencies of the humanstxt site / practices.
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sandeepshetty Not sure if that was the answer to the context for: "<JonathanNeal> Thanks tantek. I hear you have banned stakes to burn me at."
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sandeepshetty so wishes he could make it to IWC
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tantek sandeepshetty - yes - context
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tantek sandeepshetty - sign up to remote participate!
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/Guest_List#Remote_Participants
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marjolein is away: in my hammock ZZZZZzzzzz..... tzaf!
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sandeepshetty yep was going to sign up...
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tantek woot!
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Loqi woot
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sandeepshetty tantek: for some reason that table (*remote participation) doesn't understand the gravatar link
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sandeepshetty maybe because it doesn't end with a .jpg?
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tantek sandeepshetty - others have gotten it to work
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tantek look at others' gravatar examples
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tantek on that page
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sandeepshetty yeah checking the "creators" section... should have done that before asking actually :)
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sandeep.io edited /2013/Guest_List (+632) "/* Remote Participants */" (view diff)
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sandeep.io edited /2013/Guest_List (+104) "/* Remote Participants */" (view diff)
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tantek woot!
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Loqi woot
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sandeepshetty is off to get some shut-eye... hopes to send a webmention tomorrow...
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JonathanNeal tantek: disempowered creators dot text
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pdurbin :)
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JonathanNeal So I'm still not cool enough https://indieauth.com/auth?me=jonathantneal.com
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JonathanNeal Because I am not cool enough for protocols.
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tantek JonathanNeal - you're too cool apparently and finding bugs :)
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tantek aaronpk - looks like indieauth is not handling protocol relative URLs
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tantek e.g. on http://www.jonathantneal.com/ he has: <a href="//twitter.com/jon_neal" rel="me">
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tantek do you have an issue filed on that for indieauth aaronpk?
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tantek JonathanNeal - technically you should be putting https explicitly since
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tantek Twitter itself on your profile has:
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tantek <link rel="canonical" href="https://twitter.com/jon_neal">
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tantek that being said, it's likely you'll run into the same t.co problem that everyone else has been :/
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/indieauth#Twitter_t.co
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JonathanNeal For shame, http://twitter.com/t
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tantek so...
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tantek you may want to add a link to your github profile in addition and use that
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tantek is wondering what he's being shamed about
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JonathanNeal Or rather, http://viewsource.in/tantek.com#L183
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JonathanNeal I am joking with the "for shame" expression, but using it to point out that http:// seems pretty valid, even by your standards.
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JonathanNeal So, the protocol-less version seems equally legit, but if you want me to change it, I will.
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JonathanNeal I will conform to our indie standards.
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JonathanNeal ;)
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JonathanNeal You and I tinker by nature. If I ran the #viewsource or #humanstxt channel, you would be giving me hell, for sure.
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tantek no you can leave the protocol-less one there
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tantek if you want for testing
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tantek even though it's less legit
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tantek because "fixing it" won't help since you'll just run into the t.co redirect problem