#indiewebcamp 2013-06-11
2013-06-11 UTC
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# 
JonathanNeal EHLOVader: yea, something should warn them.
# JonathanNeal I'm digging http://hitchjs.com/
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# JonathanNeal I don't use LESS or SASS, actually. Yet.
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sandeepshetty I'm liking syndicating markdown to avoid loosing context: http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2013/06/10/3/network (it would suck to syndicate comments but have a reader visit my site to get proper context of the comment).
# sandeepshetty !tell aaronpk: you could render comments as markdown with the no markup mode: http://michelf.ca/blog/2007/php-markdown-no-markup/ Re http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-06-11#t1370936986
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@sandeepshetty Interesting that a lot of well know bloggers don't accept comments on their blog: http://kottke.org/13/06/you-commit-three-felonies-a-day http://daringfireball.net/2013/06/ios_7_signature #indieweb
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# @sandeepshetty Share is a better verb than Repost and Link is a better verb than Mention because... http://www.sandeep.io/45 #rssb #indieweb #converspace
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cweiske do you know of someone offering hosted juvia[1] one can add to his pages? [1] https://github.com/phusion/juvia
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@BarnabyWalters Liked Indieweb Federated Likes by @sandeepshetty. Hopefully this’ll register as like on that page… (http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4QTCcn/)
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# @sandeepshetty RT @BarnabyWalters: Liked Indieweb Federated Likes by @sandeepshetty. Hopefully this’ll register as like on that page… (http://t.co/r2jUpZl…
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# evanpro aaronpk: that seems excessive
# evanpro Yes
# evanpro It's the kind of thing that makes sense in the abstract and that you don't really need
# evanpro "Evan liked that aaronpk shared that cweiske unfollowed singpolyma"
# evanpro ha ha
# @BarnabyWalters Liked Indieweb Federated Likes by @sandeepshetty. Hopefully this’ll register as like on that page… (http://t.co/r2jUpZlOw9)
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# sandeepshetty that kind of thing happens all the time on Facebook :)
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aaronpk sandeepshetty: my reply pulled in your hidden text: http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2013/06/11/1/microformats
# sandeepshetty Yeah I'll be undoing the hack I made for showing sensible comments when likes, reposts are not implemented.
# sandeepshetty aaronpk: though I'll still provide the plaintext markdown in that hidden div
# sandeepshetty cweiske: the problem is that when they ask for html they strip out the html to make it safe which results in a lot of context being lost
# sandeepshetty aaronpk: for articles as well?
# sandeepshetty hmm... you might be right.
# sandeepshetty so barnaby is writing notes in html?
# sandeepshetty Right, so that loss of context issue is unique to syndicating notes in html then...
# sandeepshetty Haven't thought this through but I think it will matter if/when we build feed readers into systems
# sandeepshetty s/into/into our
# sandeepshetty I googled a bit & found articles where feed reader writers talk about edge cases
# sandeepshetty doesn't sound fool proof to me.
# sandeepshetty Almost all social networks deal in text and external long-form content just gets shared with plaintext snippets.
# sandeepshetty if we were to follow a similar model then it looks like we'll end up only syndicating notes some of which are related to "sharing" articles?
# sandeepshetty cweiske: I will eventual just list them as links that mention my post
# sandeepshetty it's better in that it we comments
# sandeepshetty s/it we/we do
# sandeepshetty what do you mean?
# sandeepshetty I plan on writing a webmention plugin for WordPress at some point
# sandeepshetty you mean do it with existing pingback implementation?
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# sandeepshetty ah then it's the microformats approach that you want...
# sandeepshetty That should be easy to do. Pick up the microformats from source and just add a (native) comment.
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# sandeepshetty webmention is just a simpler pingback :)
# sandeepshetty Most of the problem there are solved in combination with microformats
# sandeepshetty and better ux :)
# sandeepshetty aaronpk: (I'm on the phone) can you add the discussion about syndicating only plaintext somewhere on the wiki? (maybe /plaintext)
# sandeepshetty aaronpk: that leaves us with the issue of syndication other types of content like photos. We might have to revist the activity streams stuff again maybe
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# sandeepshetty gtg. Later.
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barnabywalters has anyone used htmlpurifier.org for dealing with potentially harmful HTML?
# barnabywalters yes
# barnabywalters I’m going to start using it for inbound e-content stuff
# barnabywalters we still need to solve the p- e- ambiguity problem, but simply cleaning whatever comes in is probably a good solution
# barnabywalters I am habitually against syndicating in markdown or basically anything else which isn’t plaintext or HTML
# barnabywalters plaintext w/ autolinking is an excellent compromise
# barnabywalters and for the time being a good solution
# barnabywalters melvster: wat, no HTML ;)
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# barnabywalters I think the pump.io client is a JS app
# sandeepshetty barnabywalters: markdown *is* plaintext
# barnabywalters sandeepshetty: ugly plaintext
# sandeepshetty :)
# barnabywalters but if treated as plaintext, not processed, then yes
# sandeepshetty I'm used to the ugly part but there are ways to do stuff like liking in a cleaner way
# sandeepshetty s/liking/linking
# sandeepshetty hey melvster... have you been a regular here?
# sandeepshetty it was inspired by what eschnou with comment here http://eschnou.com/entry/testing-indieweb-federation-with-waterpigscouk-aaronpareckicom-and--62-24908.html
# sandeepshetty cweiske: I would
# sandeepshetty One way to solve that would be to have a page for the url (which lists all the other instances) and send one ping for it?
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# sandeepshetty I obviously haven't thought this through so let me start by saying why I think sending a ping is good.. from the perpective of the author it's good to know when my content is linked to...
# sandeepshetty for a majority of users that shouldn't be 1000's of pingbacks
# sandeepshetty I don't know. Do you have a suggestion?
# sandeepshetty !tell cweiske: I've added your questions to the wiki. Certainly things to think about.
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willnorris aaronpk: what at IndieWebCamp still needs sponsoring? Lunch/Dinner on either day?
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# willnorris Google will pick up dinner Saturday night
# willnorris yep, willnorris@google.com
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aaronparecki.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:google-logo.png]]""
# aaronparecki.com edited /Sponsors (+419) "/* 2013 Sponsors */ update sponsor information" (view diff)
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# sandeepshetty that's an interesting idea... experimenting with an experimental u-like class at the moment: http://www.sandeep.io/39
# sandeepshetty sorry didn't understand the question...
# sandeepshetty did you mean one person giving more than one like?
# sandeepshetty Haven't thought about bookmarks.. rather haven't dogfooded it...
# sandeepshetty liking is very different from bookmarking
# sandeepshetty also voting is interesting.. haven't thought too much about it...
# sandeepshetty liking has an emotional context to it.. bookmarking is more about collecting...
# sandeepshetty though people use favorite on twitter for both
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Loqi OTHERWISE ALL THE QUESTIONS http://loqi.me/7SN
# sandeepshetty tantek: it's not just because the UI is different for me.... I added a note about that to the wiki
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tantek cweiskie: HTTP ERROR: 504 / Gateway Timeout / RequestURI=http://fotostore.cweiske.de/screenshots/2013-06-11%20vote-for-against.png
# sandeepshetty tantek: I could see the img
# sandeepshetty cweiske: I couldn't login with username:demo/password:demo
# tantek perhaps add to http://indiewebcamp.com/vote with a description of what you're trying to do?
# sandeepshetty cweiske: could also be framed as because I don't want to add an <a rel="me" :)
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# willnorris yeah the lack of support for <link rel="me" bugged me too, fwiw
# sandeepshetty cweiske: what does the vote mean to you? relevance? agreement?
# sandeepshetty BTW we have lots of activitystreams folks around today :) who have a lot more experience in these things
# tantek cweiske - is this an accurate capture of the issue? http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieAuth#link_rel_me_support
# sandeepshetty I meant the spec folk and people like evanpro (who is not here right now) that are actually using it
# sandeepshetty cweiske: That's the problem (Re can differ in different contexts) with generic solutions (like bookmarking software)
# sandeepshetty with our indieweb stuff I think we have very specific use-cases
# willnorris mostly +1 to tantek's point. The fact that I am no longer is any actual AS implementation (either personally or at Google) is the main reason I try and stay out of current discussions
# willnorris err, *involved in any AS implementations
# sandeepshetty tantek: it's the legacy arguments that interest me... I'm hoping there are some lessons there.
# sandeepshetty for example with RSSB I have in-reply-to, like and repost at the same level while with AS they have a comment object
# sandeepshetty and I'm just moving to share (from repost: http://www.sandeep.io/45) which is what the AS folks had...
# sandeepshetty I keep seeing the specs but I sorely miss the arguments for why things turned out the way they did in them
# sandeepshetty cweiske: what are the other contexts?
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tantek.com edited /ActivityStreams (+1141) "IndieWeb Support, issue - Lack of selfdogfooding, resort a bit" (view diff)
# tantek sandeepshetty - then you should indicate that as your indieweb perspective here: http://indiewebcamp.com/ActivityStreams#Indieweb_perspectives
# willnorris saying that AS has zero dogfooding my spec authors is certainly unfair. James Snell uses it extensively at IBM. I know Monica *was* using it extensively at socialcast, though I can't speak to what she's doing now
# willnorris dogfooding by* spec authors
# sandeepshetty yeah I've seen that :) just curious about why the AS folks didn't just add a reply verb (replied to a post) and have this weird indirection of "posted a comment with a inreplyto to a post"
# willnorris what would the object of the activity be if the verb were "reply"? The new comment, or the thing being replied to? Either way, where would you express the other one?
# sandeepshetty I see what you mean. I guess the difference between what I'm trying is embedding the info in the "new" object and not an abstract activity..
# willnorris tantek: that's at least more accurate, though I don't agree with the statement that you must be selfdogfooding, as opposed to corporate-dogfooding in order to have something relevant to say with regard to "present implementation / standards / building-blocks"
# sandeepshetty the h-entry is the new object and it has a link to the think being replied
# sandeepshetty trying to figure out if it's an issue or if I'm plain wrong :)
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# sandeepshetty will do
# willnorris but that just means slower progress with more frequent turnover. Not "no progress" or irrelevant contributions
# sandeepshetty willnorris: does that make sense?
# willnorris though exactly to your point, Chris and I no longer work on Activity Streams at Google… the folks working on activity related stuff (albeit mainly under schema.org) for both G+ and Gmail are newcomers to the space /shrug
# willnorris sandeepshetty: yeah, that makes sense… just having the object. But having a lone object like that is simply interpreted as having an implied activity with the verb "post". So you're really right back where you started, albeit with less syntax
# sandeepshetty right but that "post" is the difference between user posting the object vs the system posting an activity object... that post (verb) is also there with the activity?
# willnorris in an implied activity, the actor is unknown unless it can be inferred from the object, so it's not really interpreted as the system posting the object… it's just unknown
# willnorris XRD doesn't *really* have empty subjects. The <Subject /> element is optional, but only so that the logical subject can be identified by other means
# willnorris the only real use case at the time was for host-meta, which used an <hm:Host /> element. No one really cares about that use case anymore though, since webfinger doesn't use host-meta
# sandeepshetty willnorris: I see what you mean... I guess the difference is more fundamental then: in my case it's an object with some context (verb) vs. with AS it's an activity that describes an object and it's context. Question is will I encounter issues by not having the abstract activity?
# willnorris an implied activity is different though, in that it really does have an unknown subject. An activity with no actor still makes sense and can still be useful (though maybe not as useful as if the actor were known). An XRD document without knowing what it is that you're describing it meaningless
# willnorris is* meaningless
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# willnorris sandeepshetty: where are you identifying the verb? Are you letting it be implied by the fact that the object as an in-reply-to, or are you making it explicit (in which case, I would assume that you have an actual activity object, no? even one without an actor?) ?
# sandeepshetty within the h-entry (object) I have an p-author/h-card (subject) and links in the h-entry are marked up with verbs (in-reply-to, repost, like)
# willnorris are those links to perform those actions or to get a list of historical activities of those types?
# willnorris in other words, are they for future or past actions?
# willnorris err… sorry. I think I misinterpreted what you meant
# sandeepshetty the fact that the h-entry was posted implies that the link was liked/reposted/commented on
# sandeepshetty in AS terms when I subject I meant actor
# sandeepshetty s/subject/said subject
# sandeepshetty more context here: http://www.sandeep.io/39
# sandeepshetty let me know if I'm not making sense :D
# willnorris the example definitely helps
# willnorris semantically, this maps to AS nicely. syntactically, it deviates a bit to the point that an AS parser probably wouldn't recognize, though I do like the simplicity of it
# sandeepshetty do you see any potential issues with it?
# willnorris and it extends webmention nicely
# willnorris not off the top of my head, but to Tantek's point earlier… don't take it from me, as I'm not actually implementing this stuff myself :-D
# sandeepshetty I'm already seeing some issues around how to interpret the content of h-entry
# sandeepshetty for example you ignore it for likes and repost but you use the content for replies
# willnorris why is that a problem? Not all actions necessarily need content.
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# sandeepshetty just realized that the problem I had in mind was because of someone else's incorrect implementation... you're right that should not be problem.
# sandeepshetty melvster: were are you implementing it?
# sandeepshetty tabulator?
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# sandeepshetty link?
# sandeepshetty melvster: "Couldn't set callback for redirects: TypeError: Cannot set property 'notificationCallbacks' of undefined" - http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2005/ajar/ajaw/tab
# sandeepshetty `it did load though eventually
# sandeepshetty A lot of stuff there is alien to me cause I never really got into the rdf and semantic web stuff :)
# sandeepshetty melvster: that's be great (re blog post/write ups)... at some point I want to dig into it
# sandeepshetty melvster: Re "people make it complicate" there is a lot of jargon in the community..
# sandeepshetty on the rw list I can't understand most of things they are saying because of the jargon.... I need like a one page jargon index :)
# sandeepshetty thanks that would be great.. I've always had interest but never really got into it... I would love the get your "it's real easy" perpective (assuming it's not coming from the I've crossed this jargon hurdle so it's simple for me now
# sandeepshetty kinda like emacs :)
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# aaronpk don't think I heard anybody talk about it last year http://indiewebcamp.com/Category:2012
# aaronpk but there is this self-hosted bitcoin wallet: https://github.com/kyledrake/coinpunk
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# Loqi [mention] http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4QTN9U/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com (pingback)
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# sandeepshetty !tell cweiske: IMO, send a webmention when a link is bookmarked but don't send one for voting because it seems like an action on "your" software rather than on the link that was bookmarked. Does that make sense?
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# sandeepshetty aaronpk: fixed the issue with hidden plaintext. Any way to refresh http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2013/06/11/1/microformats ?
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# sandeepshetty actullay it might make sense to leave it as is given the content of your comment