#indiewebcamp 2013-06-12

2013-06-12 UTC
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bret woooooo schools out
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aaronpk friday!!
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aaronpk oh wait
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bret PSU is in finals week, just turned in my only final
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aaronpk nice
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bret how up to date is your location on your website typically aaronpk?
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aaronpk if it's more than 1 minute old I either a) am not moving or b) am on a plane
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bret b!
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aaronpk soon
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bre.tc edited /IndieAuth (+140) "/* To do */ Added my idea about Personas to the todo list" (view diff)
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@xtof_fr #short-domain research
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JonathanNeal hello
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silona.org edited /2013/Guest_List (-428) "/* Apprentices */" (view diff)
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@xtof_fr #indieweb Thx @billcpu for this economy : #dataexpense:118USD (#lebateau #lybie) http://www.flickr.com/photo.gne?short=eKaAec
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Loqi cweiske: sandeepshetty left you a message 8 hours, 14 minutes ago: IMO, send a webmention when a link is bookmarked but don't send one for voting because it seems like an action on "your" software rather than on the link that was bookmarked. Does that make sense?
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@philippeback Effectivement les silos c'est pas bô. http://christopheducamp.com/w/IndieWeb
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roblord.org edited /2013/Guest_List (+334) "/* Creators */" (view diff)
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roblord.org edited /2013/Guest_List (+20) "/* Creators */" (view diff)
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roblord.org edited /2013/Guest_List (+3) "/* Creators */" (view diff)
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sandeepshetty tommorris: what's your pingback endpoint?
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sandeepshetty tommorris: also your h-card doesn't have an author url, do you prefer people linking to the email isntead?
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sandeepshetty !tell tommorris: want to send a pingback for http://www.sandeep.io/49 but I can't seem to find the pingback headers/link rel. Wondering how barnabywalters sent you the pingback...
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@haverholm Worried about internet surveillance and your privacy? Here's a list of #IndieWeb projects: http://indiewebcamp.com/projects #prism
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sandeep.io edited /projects (+366) "/* experimental */ Added converspace" (view diff)
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@ozten @blaine Are you going to OSBridge or IndieWebCamp? Sent you an email from my http://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/new/ account about Poetica and your post.
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sandeepshetty aaronpk: Does this (http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http://www.sandeep.io/40) look ok for http://www.sandeep.io/40 ?
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aaronpk that's not bad! except for the markdown ;)
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sandeepshetty :)
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tantek sandeepshetty - I'm liking the presentation you're using for "likes" on your own site.
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sandeepshetty thanks... I'm liking them too :)
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sandeepshetty would love to get some feedback on http://www.sandeep.io/45
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tantek aaronpk - the markdown is not bad for a plain text summary - especially if you autolink it the hyperlink will be clickable
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aaronpk yea, I think I just have a personal hatred of the markdown link syntax
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tantek sandeepshetty - share - haha - it's a lost cause
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tantek aaronpk - I don't blame you
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tantek sandeepshetty - share has been so watered down it that all it means at this point is "do something"
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tantek so if you find yourself thinking, oh I should call this "share", then what it really means is that you're having trouble coming up with a specific verb, or specific UI for a specific verb, and you're falling back to a ( DO SOMETHING ) button
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tantek or post type
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tantek let me see if I can dig up the post on this
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tantek hmm - apparently I say "share" in posts quite often
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sandeepshetty :) do you have a suggestion given the context in that post? I've linked to an example post there where I just have a link and I do that very often...
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tantek found my brief debunking of "share" from a UI/UX perspective: http://tantek.com/2012/152/b1/citation-ui-focus-enabling-design#share-all-things
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sandeepshetty I think what differentiates more than it being link is that it's not a post..
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tantek "sharing a link" has typically been called public "bookmarking"
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tantek or posting a "bookmark"
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tantek (no new verb needed)
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tantek sandeepshetty - or e.g. it *is* a post just of post type "bookmark"
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tantek I don't think it merits a new post type though
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sandeepshetty no i mean the link target is not a post
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sandeepshetty it could be a link to a web app
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tantek in my opinion sharing a link is just a subset of a "note"
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tantek it's not interesting enough to merit its own post type or presentation
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tantek it's just a note that happens to only have a URL
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tantek which could easily include a URL and a few words of commentary
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tantek or a a URL and a few hashtags to more easily find it later
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sandeepshetty it's more close to repost than a note... with a note you can be sure I'm saying something
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tantek it's not a repost
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tantek because, as you said, you're not reposting the contents
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tantek and the destination link might not be a post either
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tantek it's just a note with only a URL
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tantek nothing more
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sandeepshetty I will be doing a preview.. just i do with like and reposts
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tantek and many of us do previews with URLs in notes also
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tantek e.g. aaronpk does it
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tantek p3k that is
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tantek and I do it with Falcon for links to media (images & video)
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sandeepshetty a note is more about me expressing personal opinion...
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sandeepshetty this is more me pointing to something...
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tantek in practice a lot of notes have a single URL and an optional opinion
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tantek people often share just links on twitter
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sandeepshetty BTW i identify with the context of my site primarily serving my readers
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sandeepshetty re twitter http://www.sandeep.io/47
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tantek and I'm saying there's insufficient difference between a note with just a link and a note with a link and a few words
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tantek it doesn't merit a new type nor presentation
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sandeepshetty it does from a ux perpective for me because it gives a different signal to my readers
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sandeepshetty it similar to how blogs used to do posts and remainder link (i think thats what they were called)
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tantek what people called "remainder links" was even different from either of those
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tantek they were posts that were *collections* of links
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tantek not just one link per post
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tantek might have been called "remaindered links" also
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tantek sandeepshetty - re: http://www.sandeep.io/47 - people *do* post photos on Twitter ever since Twitter started natively hosting pic.twitter.com photos and built-in photo taking/posting into their apps.
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tantek not sure about video - I don't know if they support posting videos to pic.twitter.com
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sandeepshetty as a reader it appears a link that i click to get more details on atleast on mobile...
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aaronpk interestingly, photos on twitter are still just links to the photo. it's just that twitter built the service
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sandeepshetty and previews are just that... preview of *links*
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sandeepshetty twitter doesn't say you've shared a photo... it just adds a lionk to your tweet... unlike fb
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aaronpk it's the same way I posted this photo as a note, http://aaron.pk/n4Ns2 even though the file itself is under the same path as the note text
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tantek.com created /share (+614) "stub with the problem with share" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk - that's an interesting distinction. I can see what you mean. It's like Twitter built a partial photo hosting silo, that you can only access through their note posting silo as a side-effect.
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tantek One distinction is that there are separate pic.twitter.com permalink URLs for the photo posts themselves
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sandeepshetty they extended the facebook og approach to photos
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tantek and those are the ones that get put in tweets
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aaronpk that's true, twitter has even one more level of indirection since the link isn't to the JPG, it's to an HTML page
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tantek and that HTML page is their photo hosting service
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tantek that's my point, Twitter *does* have a photo silo
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aaronpk yea
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tantek that's my contradiction of sandeep's assertion in his /47
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aaronpk I see it as sharing links to the photos as well
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tantek you *do* share photos on pic.twitter.com. you share links to them on twitter.com
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sandeepshetty yeah but from a users perpective it could be any service as long as twitter provides a previw
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aaronpk right
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tantek sandeepshetty - not true - when you share photos on pic.twitter.com - it's MORE than a preview
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aaronpk it's a nearly identical experience with flickr for example
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tantek it's a fully embedded lightbox experience
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tantek no it is NOT identical - not even close
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aaronpk https://twitter.com/pkbot/status/344720803499212800
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Loqi https://twitter.com/ ::
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aaronpk https://twitter.com/MatEllis/status/344879422790303744
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aaronpk how is that different?
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Loqi https://twitter.com/ ::
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tantek click on the pic.twitter.com URL that's how that's different
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tantek note that it doesn't open in a new tab/window
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tantek it opens *in place*
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tantek and note that it links back to the note
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tantek *very* different experience, flow etc.
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tantek e.g. here is the photo post: https://twitter.com/MatEllis/status/344879422790303744/photo/1
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Loqi https://twitter.com/ ::
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aaronpk i wouldn't call it a lightbox
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tantek no I wouldn't either, I'll amend that
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sandeepshetty so does the other one... both open in a modal
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tantek this is a photo post on Twitter: https://twitter.com/MatEllis/status/344879422790303744/photo/1
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Loqi https://twitter.com/ ::
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aaronpk loqi wtf
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tantek there is NOTHING modal about that URL
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tantek sandeepshetty - that is incorrect
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aaronpk that photo permalink doesn't even look like you're on twitter.com
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aaronpk it just happens to have the same domain as twitter.com
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tantek aaronpk - that's because you're on the photo hosting service subset of twitter.com
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sandeepshetty how did you get to it?
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aaronpk right, which is what i'm trying to say
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tantek that's a native photo post on twitter.com
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aaronpk it's not twitter.com, it's the photo hosting service
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aaronpk which is not native to twitter
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tantek it's Twitter.com's photo hosting service
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sandeepshetty thats incidental..
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tantek URL starts with twitter.com = native to Twitter
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tantek not at all
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tantek no other photo links work like that
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sandeepshetty i could be any service
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tantek no it couldn't
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tantek because all other services work differently
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sandeepshetty how did you get to that fullscreen preview?
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tantek I clicked on the pic.twitter link in the note
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aaronpk the only thing the flickr example doesn't have is a link back to the tweet
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sandeepshetty i get a modal when i do that
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tantek sandeepshetty - "fullscreen preview" is an oxymoron
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tantek it's not a preview
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tantek it's the actual photo
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sandeepshetty right
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tantek actual photo permalink
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sandeepshetty i dont get that though
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tantek actual photo *post* permalink that is
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tantek I"m looking it at on the weeb
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tantek web
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tantek on Firefox
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tantek where are you looking at it?
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sandeepshetty then its the same as any other app..
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tantek it's not
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sandeepshetty if the link take you to another service..
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tantek sandeepshetty - you're not reading what I wrote above
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sandeepshetty it's just that no other services do what it does yet
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tantek e.g. "note that it doesn't open in a new tab/window"
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tantek that's control on Twitter's side
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tantek shows evidence that it's a photo post
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tantek rather than a separate service
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aaronpk whether or not a link opens a new window is kind of irrelevant... I can always ctrl-click to open any link in a new window
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tantek also, reasoning by "does yet" or "could do" is not evidence - it's purely hypothetical
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tantek thus your arguments hold much less weight
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tantek than actually analyzing *existing* behavior *now*
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tantek aaronpk - nah - links to external stuff opens in new tabs across many social services, and links to native posts in those services opens in the same tab/window
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tantek that's common across Twitter/FB/G+
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tantek that's the convention for native posts vs. links to external things
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tantek and users are used to that difference
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sandeepshetty bbiab
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tantek I think you're wanting to put Twitter in a box instead of looking at the preponderance of evidence of the behavior of the system
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tantek and how that behavior resembles others' behavior
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tantek.com created /like (+754) "stub with real world indieweb example from sandeepshetty" (view diff)
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tantek sandeepshetty - ok your real world indieweb example of a "like" post type is worthy of capturing and documenting as something different - since you've chosen to give it an interesting and distinctive appearance / presentation
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tantek.com edited /posts (+77) "/* Kinds of Posts */ added like" (view diff)
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sandeepshetty ok I'm back... the recursive linking on the fullscreen photo on twitter is weird
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sandeepshetty re "done yet" and "could do", it's useful when stuff us possible but not done yet but you are right in this case: I don't think twitter will open external service links in place
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sandeepshetty let me reframe this in the context of what I want to do.. I would just treat photos as previews.... like aaronpk does
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sandeepshetty lastely re "share" : even if it means "do something" it's a better verb than "do something" and as a long time Android user I think it works very well
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sandeepshetty just like the http verb "post" is better than "do something"
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tantek but "post" is not "do something" - it has more specific semantics
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tantek "do something" includes all kinds of things like mailto: etc.
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tantek "share" is just a pretend verb
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tantek just use "do" if you can't think of anything specific
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tantek sandeepshetty - wrote this up thanks to your example: http://indiewebcamp.com/like
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tantek also - it's not really recursive linking - it's reciprocal linking ;)
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tantek.com edited /posts (+135) "/* Footer sections */ likes" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /likes (+985) "stub with likes as a part of a post" (view diff)
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sandeepshetty tantek: thanks for writing that up... I'll add a screenshot ot it.
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tantek and a quick stub about what's displayed *on* posts ( http://indiewebcamp.com/likes ) as opposed to "like" posts themselves - which are two different things
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tantek (not going to repeat the "reply" post vs. "comments" section of a post mistake)
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tantek sandeepshetty - great! thanks for pioneering the "like" post type on the indie web :)
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sandeepshetty tantek: Re "share" is just a pretend verb It's not, and has a very real social context
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sandeepshetty I'm sharing things with my readers
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tantek sandeepshetty - that's what "share" used to mean
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sandeepshetty http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/share "to tell (as thoughts, feelings, or experiences) to others —often used with with"
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tantek until people started saying "share" to dropbox, or to email, or to a printer
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tantek where "share" just became "send"
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tantek new word, same concept
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sandeepshetty so lets reclaim it then, rather than give it up
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tantek it's too late
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tantek google/android killed it
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tantek actually, "share" is a good example of bulshytt
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/bulshytt
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tantek.com edited /bulshytt (+40) "see also" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /share (+119) "share qualifies as bulshytt" (view diff)
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sandeepshetty I'll choose to disagree :) especially given the fact that I'm using it in the same way that millions of facebook users are used to
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tantek sandeepshetty - ok, re: reclaim. so how you would you precisely define "share" different than Google/Android's meaningless version (do something), or just a synonym for "post" or "send"?
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sandeepshetty also another interesting thing with converspace is that like is not a different post type.. they are all posts just with different verbs
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sandeepshetty which is why photos doesn't make sense in my context
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tantek sounds like your conceptual model might be getting in the way of a useful feature ;)
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tantek.com edited /share (+348) "strawman reclaiming proposal" (view diff)
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tantek ok sandeepshetty - though I'm not sure there's much hope, I wrote this up for you: http://indiewebcamp.com/share#Reclaiming
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tantek feel free to expand - I tried to provide a specific definition which you're welcome to add to or replace
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tantek I'm actively enabling you to prove me wrong :)
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sandeepshetty Looks like I have a lot of wiki pages to edit tonight :)
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tantek = science :)
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sandeepshetty a microformats question related to how were are using it for comments..
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tantek words I never want to see in my email client: "Welcome to your new inbox"
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tantek fracking #gmail
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sandeepshetty I was just implementing showing comments on my site... it looks like everyone is showing "name" or "summary" because they are plaintext..
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sandeepshetty instead of the content which seems to be the "right" thing to do with comments..
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sandeepshetty aaronpk: what are you doing in this case?
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tantek sandeepshetty, aaronpk - didn't we have this discussion in IRC already? whether you get the content from "summary" or "content", if you want plain text, you have to strip tags yourself.
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tantek.com edited /like (+20) "like is also a webaction" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /like (-2) "-A" (view diff)
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sandeepshetty we did , I created /plaintext that day but everyone seems to agree on showing name or summary right now ... I think we should show content (which is why I have hidden plaintext content)
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tantek.com edited /posts (+44) "/* Footer sections */" (view diff)
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tantek sandeepshetty - it's because we discussed it a while ago I wrote this up accordingly: http://indiewebcamp.com/comments-presentation#How_to_display
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tantek note the list item "get the text of the comment to display"
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tantek there's an actual algorithm / heuristic there beyond "everyone seems to agree on showing name or summary "
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aaronpk sorry in emergency mode, will catch up on this later
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tantek np aaronpk - good luck!
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sandeepshetty tantek: thanks that help... I should get into the habit of looking at the wiki first ... though I wish those sections/page were linked to irc discussion
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sandeepshetty tantek: implementation don't seem to following that algo https://github.com/storytlr/storytlr/blob/master/protected/application/public/controllers/PingbackController.php#L63
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sandeepshetty it's the only open source one i can point to :)
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cweiske there is also https://github.com/pear2/Services_Pingback
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cweiske https://github.com/pear2/Services_Pingback/blob/master/src/PEAR2/Services/Pingback/Server.php
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cweiske wait. it isn't about pingback itself
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sandeepshetty from irc conversation it looks like aaronpk picks up "only name" (http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-05-29#t1369856550)
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sandeepshetty cweiske: yeah it's more to do with picking up microformats from source
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cweiske okok
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tantek cweiske - yeah, pingback never handled the presentation layer particularly well. In fact, quite the opposite - the few hints it had were very poor UI: http://indiewebcamp.com/comments-presentation#Existing_specifications_for_display
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tantek so we've fixed that now :)
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tantek with http://indiewebcamp.com/comments-presentation
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tommorris hey indiewebsters
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Loqi tommorris: sandeepshetty left you a message 9 hours, 58 minutes ago: want to send a pingback for http://www.sandeep.io/49 but I can't seem to find the pingback headers/link rel. Wondering how barnabywalters sent you the pingback...
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tommorris sandeepshetty: yes, was going to answer that. the 'pingbacks' on my site are currently fake. it's just frontend. I add them manually. I need to wire up pingback/webmention at some point
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tommorris also, barcamp this weekend. should give an indieweb session
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tommorris this is what I was working on this morning - http://cl.ly/image/0m142f2J0l2c - not indieweb, but openstreetmap crowdsourcey plumbing. ;)
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tantek sandeepshetty, one of the problems with markdown link syntax - and syndicating it - it can break typical auto-linkers, e.g. your first comment on http://eschnou.com/entry/testing-indieweb-federation-with-waterpigscouk-aaronpareckicom-and--62-24908.html ends up linking to http://www.webmention.org%29/Pingback which doesn't exist
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sandeepshetty yeah I saw that and told him about that on IRC.. wikipedia seems to () in links all the time
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sandeepshetty s/to/to use
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Loqi sandeepshetty meant to say: yeah I saw that and to useld him about that on IRC.. wikipedia seems to use () in links all the time
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tantek sandeepshetty - in this case it was your error - you missed a trailing slash on your URL
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tantek http://webmention.org/ - not http://webmention.org
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tantek so the close parenthesis got included as part of the TLD
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sandeepshetty actually it's assuming ) as part of the tld
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sandeepshetty because it shouldn't accept a ) before a /
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sandeepshetty it would still break but break differently
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sandeepshetty I mean the way it is interpreting it right now
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tantek ok I just checked and my cassis.js auto_link handles your text just fine: auto_link("Just implemented the ability to send [WebMentions](http://webmention.org)/Pingback.")
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tantek but apparently colloquy doesn't ;)
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tantek my code produces:
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tantek Just implemented the ability to send [WebMentions](<a class="auto-link" href="http://webmention.org">http://webmention.org</a>)/Pingback.
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tantek so yes, his code should be handling it better. that being said, you can publish more strictly by putting a trailing slash on top level URLs like that
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sandeepshetty with the trailing slash it becomes a valid...
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tantek maybe put spaces around the URL?
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sandeepshetty in the worn way because to accommodate wikipedia urls you have to allow for ( and ) in path segements
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sandeepshetty s/worn/wrong
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Loqi sandeepshetty meant to say: in the wrong way because to accommodate wikipedia urls you have to allow for ( and ) in path segements
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sandeepshetty space is a better workaround
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tantek sort of - Wikipedia URLs always use ( ) in matching pairs
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sandeepshetty but ppl don't write regexes that way
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tantek my auto_link code knows when to include a ")" at the end of a URL and when not to :)
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sandeepshetty they just put it in character classes
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sandeepshetty ah nice
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tantek WFM ;)
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sandeepshetty WFM?
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tantek last bullet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WFM
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blog.gratzi.org edited /2013/Guest_List (+387) "/* Creators */" (view diff)
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sandeepshetty funny I googled it but just noticed the linked bullets :)
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tantek huh, gratzi.org doesn't seem like a personal site
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blog.gratzi.org edited /2013/Guest_List (+5) "/* Creators */" (view diff)
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sandeepshetty "gratzi is an example of an unhosted application. "
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tantek well then we'll just have to ask him to explain at the camp ;)
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tantek aw Silona is not coming
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sandeepshetty but it does look like a product site than a personal site.. especially with all the "we"
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blog.gratzi.org edited /2013/Guest_List (-4) "/* Creators */" (view diff)
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tantek sandeepshetty - so far we haven't had to enforce the - your domain should be your personal domain thing
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tantek so I'm leaning toward giving him a chance to explain himself ;)
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iamshane.com edited /bulshytt (+250) ""Bullshytt" is bullshit." (view diff)
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tantek lol
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tantek.com edited /bulshytt (+217) "response to criticism, cited Wikipedia naturally" (view diff)
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blog.gratzi.org edited /2013/Guest_List (+239) "/* Apprentices */" (view diff)
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blog.gratzi.org edited /2013/Guest_List (+17) "/* Apprentices */" (view diff)
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sandeep.io edited /share (+605) (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /share (+298) "move criticism to a new section" (view diff)
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sandeep.io edited /share (+2) "/* Criticism */" (view diff)
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sandeep.io edited /share (-254) "Removed reclaiming section since it's not needed IMO, and added a comment to criticism counter." (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2013/Guest_List (+137) "sort Rob Lord, update counts, note duplicate URL usage for apprentice, note product URL rather than personal URL" (view diff)
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sandeep.io edited /share (+37) "/* Criticism */" (view diff)
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sandeep.io edited /share (+19) "/* Perspectives */" (view diff)
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sandeep.io edited /share (+47) "/* Criticism */" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /share (+697) "provide examples section, and start listing examples of sites / tools / platforms that have made share meaningless" (view diff)
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tantek 10 days left til indiewebcamp 2013 and 10 spots left!
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sandeep.io edited /share (+270) "/* Criticism */ note about examples." (view diff)
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sandeepshetty shared an update: time for me to get some shut eye :)
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tantek.com edited /share (+192) "follow-up - this is not Wikipedia, we demonstrate points here with original research, as documented with real world examples" (view diff)
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sandeep.io edited /share (+194) "/* Perspectives */ I wasn't talking about a share button" (view diff)
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bret Is there any video or audio from past IWCs?
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tantek not AFAIK
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tantek unless someone recorded the Google Hangout from 2012
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sandeep.io edited /share (+250) "/* Criticism */ still requires objective data." (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /share (+496) "/* Criticism */ majority people perception is unnecessary if sites are adopting a convention - that's sufficient "proof". provide real world example site UIs as (counter-)examples" (view diff)
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tantek hmm - something changed with the Twitter API and it looks my snowflake POSSE code to Twitter is busted.
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tantek (insert Twitter API maintenance tax whinging here)
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bret :/
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bret twitter needs a meta API, so that people can develop off that, and the meta API would be used to accomidate all their random changes for lots of people
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tantek bret I believe that's been tried, it was called WSDL ;)
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tantek oh and then Google tried again, with their ill-fated "Web Intents"
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melvster bret: there is a meta api
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melvster https://github.com/sockethub/sockethub
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EHLOVader bret: did you just get caught with v1?
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tantek.com edited /IndieAuth (+378) "/* Twitter t.co */ Perhaps related - relmeauth / tmhOAuth issue (PHP libraries)" (view diff)
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tantek sockethub sounds interesting
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