#indiewebcamp 2013-06-21

2013-06-21 UTC
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tantek aaronpk - each table has an id
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tantek so if there's a way for you to target parsing markup of a DOM node by id
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tantek you could get just the creatos
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tantek id=creators
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acegiak hey, question: is there an allowance in h-entry to say "this is where I'm posting what I'm replying to verbatim"?
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tantek or just the id="apprentices"
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aaronpk but i'm just running it through the php-mf2 parser
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tantek acegiak - huh? do you have an example of that on the web?
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@benwerd Tantek Çelik and Brett Slatkin on the #indieweb, openness and making a space on the web that you truly own: http://www.youtube.com/
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tantek aaronpk - perhaps we need to add an "id" param option to the php-mf2 parser
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tantek for it to only parse that DOM node
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acegiak tumblr allows a person to reblog an article by another person and add additional comment, both the original content and the comment are displayed as a post on the reblogger's page
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tantek !tell barnabywalters - what do you think of adding an "id" param to the php-mf2 parser which would only parse the DOM node with that "id"?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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aaronpk hmm
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tantek acegiak - that sounds like a blockquote
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acegiak tantek: that's what I'm doing at the moment, yeah
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tantek acegiak - I think it also depends on whether you doing a pure "repost/reblog" or if you're quoting and adding commentary
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acegiak tantek: yeah, it gets muddy
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tantek acegiak - well - not necessarily
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tantek it depends on the UI you're presenting
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tantek hence the request for a real world example
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acegiak tantek, my wall is just pulling your atom feed, I'll reply to a post in a second
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tantek oh you're consuming atom?
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tantek interesting
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tantek so few of those these days
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tantek (atom consumers)
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tantek.com edited /2013/Guest_List (+989) "add Wait List section/table" (view diff)
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acegiak tantek: this is what I'm working on: http://wordpress.org/plugins/whisperfollow/
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tantek whoa cool!!
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tantek acegiak - please add it here: http://indiewebcamp.com/projects
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tantek maybe here? http://indiewebcamp.com/projects#Other_Experimental_Projects
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acegiak tantek: at the moment it's a glorified rss reader, that allows "reblogging" but the idea is to recreate something like a facebook wall or a tumblr dash
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acegiak tantek: sure thing!
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tantek yes this is something we've talked a lot about in here
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tantek everyone running their own integrated aggregator on their own site
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tantek for exactly that reason
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tantek to do reblogging, quoting, citing, linking
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tantek tumblr style UI etc.
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acegiak wordpress has a cut down version of magpie-rss built in, so I'm using that
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tantek ok folks, here's the new URL to share for sign-ups: http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/Guest_List#Wait_List
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acegiak tantek: http://machinespirit.net/acegiak/ the two most recent posts are me reblogging and adding comment with the current setup of my plugin
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@t And @IndieWebCamp 2013 is AT CAPACITY!
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acegiak augh, I need to work out how to get around there being @ links in the blockquote though :P
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@indiewebcamp RT @t: And @IndieWebCamp 2013 is AT CAPACITY!
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acegiak ok, I'm gonna go get a cup of tea and get back to actual work
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tantek acegiak - I've got a PHP/JS library function that autolinks @-names
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tantek even in a blockquote ;)
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tantek see #cassis.js auto_link
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acegiak tantek: we were working out last night the wordpressy way of working out what to set as rel="in-reply-to" for wordpress plugins and themes
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tantek ooh
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tantek coming this weekend?
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acegiak we ended up using "the first thing to have an @ in the value of the link"
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acegiak I live in adelaide, australia
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tantek really
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tantek hmm - in-reply-to is to a *post* not a person
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tantek hopefully you chatted with some people in the channel who use wordpress who will be there this weekend
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acegiak I would google hangout in but I'm supposed to be working on a game that has to be in beta in three weeks
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tantek ah
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acegiak so that's most of my not-at-work time
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tantek cool
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tantek well - at least start with editing the /projects page
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acegiak tantek: I will do
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tantek let's persist some of this stuff in progress and increase discoverability
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tantek a bunch of us have been talking about turning off our Atom feeds
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tantek since Reader is dying
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tantek and just telling people to use php-mf2 to parse our home pages
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tantek who needs feeds when you have HTML+microformats?
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acegiak tantek: this is true
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acegiak I'll add to the projects page
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tantek :)
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acegiak I could update whipserfollow to ALSO parse pf2
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acegiak s/pf2/mf2/
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Loqi acegiak meant to say: I could update whipserfollow to ALSO parse mf2
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sandeepshetty_ tantek, aaronpk: suggestions for http://www.sandeep.io/70
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tantek sandeepshetty - but I *liked* your simple likes!
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tantek with the canned fallback content
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tantek I thought that was a genius solution!
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sandeepshetty_ :)
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tantek seriously
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sandeepshetty_ I can still like but I was seeing if I could drop it and see what happens... The new site design had made me focus more on simplicity...
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tantek you made more progress in IndieWeb "Like" presentation / interaction / fallback than all other efforts combined that I know of in the past 2 years
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tantek got to go for now
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tantek bbiab
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acegiak I've always wanted likes to be a value between 1 and -1 inclusive
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acegiak so that they could be presented as an "out of five stars" rating
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acegiak and have "dislike" as a thing
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sandeepshetty_ Do you have examples of stuff you want to dislike?
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acegiak the wikipedia page for westborough baptist church
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acegiak on my blog I currently "like" things by posting them as link posts in the "like" category
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acegiak but I don't see why there's a big difference between "I like this post about cooking" and "this restraurant was only slightly above average, 3.5/5 stars"
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sandeepshetty_ So that seems more like ratings...
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acegiak the problem with my approach though is that when it is presented as a boolean, ie "like" or "thumbs up" is that equal to 1 on the scale or like... 0.6?
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sandeepshetty_ When you rate something you send a different message than when you like
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acegiak do you? isn't a like just a really simple rating?
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acegiak I haven't seen your implementation
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sandeepshetty_ IMO, like sends a different social signal... it's either an emotional response by the liker or a way for the liker to show support / encourage the poster whose post is being liked
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sandeepshetty_ at least that's how it works on silos... there one other aspect of using it as a way to bookmark something
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sandeepshetty_ but I think primarily its the former (emotional response and showing support to original poster)
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sandeepshetty_ My site is in a state of flux right now but I have some stuff in the wiki http://indiewebcamp.com/like
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acegiak sandeepshetty_: fair enough, it's just that on silos I often used to see comments wishing for more granularity in liking systems
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acegiak anyway, that's my two cents
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sandeepshetty_ you could use ratings to do that...
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sandeepshetty_ there is a rating mf2 IIRC
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josephboyle.net edited /2013/Guest_List (-360) "/* Creators */ Canceling again :(" (view diff)
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sandeepshetty_ you could do something like: This post was mentioned by <source> and was rated a 4/5
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josephboyle.net edited /2013/Guest_List (+358) "/* Remote Participants */ Hopefully can participate some" (view diff)
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acegiak sandeepshetty_: oh I see it'spart of the h-review format
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josephboyle1 I'm out again, this time a death. Hope to see you all next year. Will attend some remotely if I can.
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josephboyle.net edited /2013/Guest_List (+80) "/* Official Guest List */ Noting one place freed up" (view diff)
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acegiak so is the reason I can't log in with indieauth because my personal site is a subdirectory?
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acegiak machinespirit.net/acegiak ?
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acegiak and should I, when I do my server rebuild later this year change the format to person.machinespirit.net rather than machinespirit.net/person ?
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sandeepshetty_ yeah indieauth doesn't support path based urls
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sandeepshetty_ is machinespirit.net your personal domain?
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acegiak it is my domain, but there are multiple blogs on there
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sandeepshetty_ there was some discussion about using path based urls but I think the general consensus is that the real world use cases don't justify it...
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acegiak most of them are different group blogs, but the idea is that once I get it working nicely then friends/family can use it to then have their own personal pages on there
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acegiak so for instance my wife could have machinespirit.net/blackwool and not have to do any setup
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acegiak I could rearrange the url structure thoguh
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acegiak though*
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acegiak my plan is to have openldap underneath managing accounts for email, xmpp, and wordpress based social networking
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acegiak the reason for choosing wordpress was so that if my friends wanted to then set up their own server and join in it would be easy
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acegiak cause all the other ostatus implementations (Which is what I was looking at when I set up) were hideous for non-technical people to set up
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acegiak I'm not sure what the term for something like machinespirit.net is though. Federated mini-silo?
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sandeepshetty_ Your use case is similar to what most federated social networks have where someone hosts your presence for you. I guess the question is about ownership... do the other users really own the /path based url... you (or any provider) could choose to just take it away based on your own TOS
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acegiak sandeepshetty_: I agree with you ethically
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acegiak pragmatically, my wife doesn't want to have to set up her own system unless it's super easy
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acegiak especially if it then has to be on a separate machine/virtual machine
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sandeepshetty_ I guess (bsaed on past discussions I've seen here) indieweb mandates "federated" setups give out subdomains but I'm not really sure how that's any better in this case
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sandeepshetty_ and given that even TLDs have different TOS, I'm not sure how even a domain is actually better.
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sandeepshetty_ so to me it's up for discussion :)
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acegiak I agree that the user should own their data, I just want to make that as easy as possible for the non-technical user
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acegiak I'm wondering about figuring out a set up for the raspberry pi so that then people can just plug that machine into their network and host from home
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acegiak but then you need to workk out dynamic dns and things like that
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acegiak the response from my family and friends seemed to be "I trust you, as a person, can you just set it up for me?" hence the mini-silo
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sandeepshetty_ evan is doing something similar with pump.io
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sandeepshetty_ I thinking he might be setting up a kickstarter for it...
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acegiak I don't like handling money :P
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sandeepshetty_ :)
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sandeepshetty_ http://www.element14.com/community/thread/24907
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sandeepshetty_ !tell tantek: what do you think about http://indiewebcamp.com/share#Framing
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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sandeepshetty_ Out of here. Later.
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acegiak bye
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www.sandeep.io created /anonymity (+234) "What is the indieweb take on anonymity?" (view diff)
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www.sandeep.io edited /anonymity (+118) "Cannot be anonymous if you have to buy a domain" (view diff)
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www.sandeep.io edited /anonymity (-1) (view diff)
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@benny_tha_dawg The Independent Web IndieWebCamp http://www.bestoftheinternets.com/tech/video/The-Independent-Web--IndieWebCamp.html
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m0hit.name edited /2013/Guest_List () "(-559) /* Creators */" (view diff)
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m0hit.name edited /2013/Guest_List (+558) "/* Remote Participants */" (view diff)
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Loqi tantek: sandeepshetty_ left you a message 4 hours, 19 minutes ago: what do you think about http://indiewebcamp.com/share#Framing
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pfefferle Good Morning folks
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pfefferle My webmention Plugin for WordPress should work stable now, can you please send me some pings/webmentions to http://notizblog.org/2013/06/20/5231/ or any other article?
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erikmaarten good work, pfefferle! That will probably eventually be immensely helpful for adoption of webmention.
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erikmaarten I don't have wordpress now, otherwise I'd help you out testing ...
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acegiak pfefferle: I'll pull the latest version and have a go
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pfefferle Thanks :)
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acegiak pfefferle: do I ned to set up any options or anything new?
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pfefferle Nope
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tantek.com edited /2013/Guest_List (+49) "update counts and messages. 2 spots freed up." (view diff)
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pfefferle But you have to enable pingbacks on your WordPress Core settings
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acegiak yeah I do
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tantek !tell sandeepshetty per even the definitions you looked up, share (self) does not make sense, not to mention the differences in emotional context between, self, send to a small few, and publish publicly.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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acegiak mines published
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acegiak tantek: I can't add to the wiki because my personal login is a subdirectory, not a root domain
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melvster acegiak: are directories not allowed?
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tantek acegiak - right - we've discussed that in the past and haven't come to any positive conclusion regarding subdirectories - since theyr'e not really "owning your own domain"
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acegiak tantek: this is what sandeeps says
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acegiak yeah
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tantek we've allowed subdomains because those make more sense from cookie/policy etc. perspective
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tantek and people setting up sites for themselves and their family
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acegiak so I should reorganise my url structure?
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acegiak yeah
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tantek givenname.familyname.tld
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acegiak that's why I have the subdir :P
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tantek your familyname is machinespirit?
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melvster subdomains can be a pain if you use https with a cert tho
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acegiak tantek: no, it's more of a small community of friends and family
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melvster cant the script be modified to accept a sub dir?
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tantek that's certainly not "owning your own domain" and identity then
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tantek so it's not really indieweb at that point
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tantek melvster - it's a policy decision
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tantek people have snuck through with sharecropped identities too
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tantek like *.github.io
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tantek but they get blocked quickly - because that's not the point
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tantek the point is own your own domain and identity on the web
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tantek and that typically means domain control
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tantek a subdirectory means someone else controls the domain, you're just sharing your identity with them
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melvster tantek: sure that makes sense, but it's sometimes possible that you own both the root domain AND the sub directory
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acegiak as I do
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tantek melvster - maybe - but also too much of both an edge case and not reliable to code for
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tantek also trying to encourage simpler / more usable identities
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tantek shorter / less typing etc.
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acegiak by expanding the length of all root domains due to competition?
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tantek like I said, subdomains still work
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acegiak ok, it seemed like you were suggesting that the shouldn't
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tantek that's the compromise we've made so far
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acegiak s/the/they/
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Loqi acegiak meant to say: ok, it seemed like you were suggesting that they shouldn't
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acegiak pfefferle: any luck with my webmention?
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erikmaarten so would a permanent redirect/rewrite of a subdomain to a subdirectory work then?
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erikmaarten for IndieAuth
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acegiak tantek: one of my main motivations is removing/lowering hurdles for my friends and family to get off corporate silos
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pfefferle acegiak: No, Thats Strange
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acegiak http://machinespirit.net/acegiak/2013/06/21/webmentioning-on-wordpress/
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acegiak do you want to try hitting me?
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pfefferle acegiak: Can you disable The Plugin and send it once again, to Check if The build in pingbacks will work?
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acegiak pfefferle: sure
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tantek acegiak - yeah - that's a fairly well agreed motivation
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acegiak pfefferle: http://pastebin.com/fpCDz6dE is my new version of the linking function that now also recognises <3 as a like
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pfefferle Nice! Can i use it for The Plugin?
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acegiak so for instance <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Churchill">&lt;3 Mad Jack Churchill</a>
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acegiak pfefferle: of course
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pfefferle <3
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acegiak pfefferle: pingback sent
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acegiak tantek: I'll have to rework my dns later then
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pfefferle Still nothing
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acegiak :S hmmmmm
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pfefferle Seems that this is a Problem with your installation
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acegiak ok then
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acegiak I'll have to have a look later, I'm off
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acegiak see you folks tomorrow
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pfefferle Bye
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@haxor @ade_oshineye Good list, especially theology. Makes me think of the #indieweb. Wondering what the list is really for~
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glennjones.net edited /2013/UK (+392) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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glennjones.net edited /2013/Guest_List (+392) "/* Remote Participants */" (view diff)
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@glennjones Could not make this years @indiewebcamp in Portland, but looks like there will be one in Brighton http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK - 8th Sept
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@gavinwye Looks like I'll be sticking around in Brighton after @dconstruct for @indiewebcamp Brighton http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK
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@brightonews RT @glennjones: Could not make this years @indiewebcamp in Portland, but looks like there will be one in Brighton http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK -…
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@drksvnt Indie Web Projects http://indiewebcamp.com/projects
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Loqi barnabywalters: tantek left you a message 9 hours, 17 minutes ago: - what do you think of adding an "id" param to the php-mf2 parser which would only parse the DOM node with that "id"?
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pfefferle just hacked a simple wordpress plugin which adds very basic microformats-2 support to any wordpress theme: https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-uf2
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barnabywalters !tell tantek RE php-mf2 id param — good plan, either that or give it a DOMNode as context and parse everything under that only. Will raise as issue.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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barnabywalters pfefferle: that’s great!
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pfefferle thanks
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tommorris was just about to note that tantek's suggestion has the potential for madness, but then read closer.
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pfefferle not as good as a real mf2 theme… but ok
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barnabywalters tommorris: how so?
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tommorris working out the current ID context of embedded data (microformats and RDFa) is painful. the RDFa spec is complicated because of that kind of context stuff
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barnabywalters pfefferle: hey, if it makes adding microformats *even easier* than it already is, it can’t be a bad thing :)
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pfefferle yes, but i can't access all values through the actions and filters :(
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tommorris because @id is overloaded to mean both fragment identifier and to mean "blob of page I want to style". it's invisible metadata
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@gavinwye Just got @bywordapp set up to publish direct to Wordpress now all my notes can actually live somewhere #indieweb
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tommorris and the semantic folks use @id one way, and then web designers come in and start slathering the page with more @id's for styling and crazy shit happens
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barnabywalters tommorris: no more so than @class, surely? not sure I understand the problem properly
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pfefferle barnabywalters: can you send me just another webmention/pingback? i think everything should be work fine now...
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barnabywalters pfefferle: doing
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tommorris barnabywalters: class is easier because classes are additive rather than exclusive
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pfefferle i think what tantek meant was, if it is possible to pass an id to the parser so it doesn't have to parse the whole document
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tommorris yep, and that's why it's okay. ;)
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melvster tommorris: are @id's not additive?
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tommorris nope.
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tommorris <div id="foo"><div id="bar"><span></span></div></div>
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melvster hmm i use @about in my homepage
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tommorris the ID of the span is... bar
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tommorris hence why RDFa has @about. ;)
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melvster yeah that seems cleaner
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melvster it also means i can put my public key in my document, so i can use PKI
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pfefferle what about also using the <main> tag, to decrease the html parsing overload?
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melvster pfefferle: is there a performance problem? you can put stuff in the HEAD iirc
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melvster sorry i mean you can put stuff in headers
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pfefferle don't know, thought there is one, because tantek mentioned the id-thing
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pfefferle barnabywalter: i think i have to fix the image placement of my theme: http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4QbH5C/ :)
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cweiske barnabywalters, why is pfefferle's time not linked?
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pfefferle oh, didn't mention that...
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barnabywalters ha ha yes :) RE not linked: probably because the parser isn’t picking up a u-url and I’m not using the source webmention URI there for some reason
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pfefferle oh, do i have to add a u-url?
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cweiske there shouldn't be the need for it IMO
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barnabywalters pfefferle: it’s a good plan, I should have auto-detected it but it makes your content more portable
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barnabywalters pfefferle: got “webmention successfully received” :)
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pfefferle received! awesome! the only problem: you are using relative links for your hash-tags
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pfefferle the parser only fixes the u-links?
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barnabywalters pfefferle: at the moment yes, over the weekend I’ll make it resolve *all* relative URIs
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pfefferle cool, thanks
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pfefferle next step: profile pics and custom comment types (like, reply, mention)
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pfefferle oh, even self-webmentions are working fine :)
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pdurbin selfies
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pfefferle ;)
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acegiak ok back for fixe minutes. need to work out what's wrong with my pingbacks and webmentions
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pfefferle acegiak: tested it with barnabywalters and it seems to work in both directions on my installation
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acegiak pfefferle, yeah there's something up with my install
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@MIKA_GMR “Own your data.” IndieWebCamp http://indiewebcamp.com/Main_Page#What_is_the_IndieWeb.3F
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Loqi sandeepshetty: tantek left you a message 5 hours, 45 minutes ago: per even the definitions you looked up, share (self) does not make sense, not to mention the differences in emotional context between, self, send to a small few, and publish publicly.
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sandeepshetty is feeling under the weather... hoping it doesn't stop him from remotely attending #indiewebcamp
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@TeaWithCarl @copiesofcopies
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sandeepshetty I've created a new branch for webmention 0.2. Here is a quick summary of changes: http://www.sandeep.io/71 Looking for feedback from implementors. Points 3, 4 and 5 there are the main changes.
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eschnou.com edited /2013/Guest_List (+416) "/* Remote Participants */ Added eschnou to the list" (view diff)
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sandeepshetty oh and also the note about updating existing webmentions
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pfefferle sandeepshetty: I like that you removed the "html or json" error response types
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sandeepshetty yeah as was notes on the wiki, it will normally be seen by a human for debugging.. I split errors into 400 and 500 so that you can retry reqeusts that you got 500 error for
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sandeepshetty s/notes/noted
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Loqi sandeepshetty meant to say: yeah as was noted on the wiki, it will normally be seen by a human for debugging.. I split errors into 400 and 500 so that you can retry reqeusts that you got 500 error for
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pfefferle sounds good
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sandeepshetty also the note about updating webmentions is imp so that we can have the ability to update comments on remote site and unlike stuff we might have liked before
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pfefferle oh man… that means a lot more work to do ;)
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sandeepshetty it's not actually...
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sandeepshetty The update is as simple as INSERT INTO ... ON DUPLICATE KEY UPDATE ..
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pfefferle yea, but have to be implemented ;)
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sandeepshetty yeah.. if we want it to be as useful as centralized commenting and likes :)
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pfefferle no seriously, it is very useful to do it like that! I am changing and extending my blogposts a lot!
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sandeepshetty yeah I had a case where I changed a comment after sending the webmention and one where I changed a like to a comment later :D
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erikmaarten sandeepshetty: Does the updating of comments really need to be part of the specification? Perhaps some would rather not update comments after they are made?
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cweiske webmention should not say anything about what happens afterwards
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pfefferle sandeepshetty: have you fully implemented web mentions in coverspace?
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sandeepshetty Pingback disallowed resending the same ping (with a special error code for it)...
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cweiske that's correct
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sandeepshetty with webmention you can choose to not implement it but it is recommended...
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sandeepshetty I'll change the language to reflect that... it's imp from the real world case of editing comments
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sandeepshetty pfefferle: Not yet.. but will this weekend
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cweiske upating is important IMO
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pfefferle i like your ideas with u-like!!!
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sandeepshetty and if it's not in the spec then the resending case is ambiguous and if you make it an error like pingback then you can't have updates
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cweiske but sandeepshetty, it should be up to the application how to handle that case
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sandeepshetty pfefferle: I'm moving away from using them :) experiementing with simple mentions and comments only
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cweiske If it does not support updates, it may send out an error
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cweiske if it supports it, it will just say "accepted"
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sandeepshetty cweiske: yes which is why I might make it a MAY
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pfefferle but the spec should say that it is possible to send a mention again for updating
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sandeepshetty I think a SHOULD is better
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sandeepshetty will make those changes later today
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sandeepshetty I'm currently editing some other minor stuff in it to make it coherent
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pfefferle what do you mean with "simple mentions"??
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pfefferle sandeepshetty: soo sad… wanted to experiment with likes this weekend :(
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sandeepshetty pfefferle: you should..
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sandeepshetty I still accept them just that I might not be publishing likes.. I'm leaning towards commenting on a post rather than just liking it
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pfefferle thats true but sometimes you want to share a link and want to say that you like the idea!?!
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sandeepshetty pfefferle: with simple mentions I meant just saying next to the post that this linked was mentioned in all these places (along with author photo, dt-published, etc.)
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pfefferle ah ok
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sandeepshetty So I think it's important to separate social verbs based on what signal you want to give and to whom
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pfefferle yes
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sandeepshetty like and share have subtle differences.. but I think I prefer sending simpler signals now :)
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pfefferle acegiak had a nice idea to convert wordings like @http://.… to <a href="" class="u-in-reply-to"> or <3 http://... to <a href="" class="u-like">
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pfefferle http://pastebin.com/nap0LewA
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sandeepshetty I was meaning to talk to you all about that... I thought @http://.. was a way to tell the editor/filter to turn it into a in-reply-to?
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sandeepshetty I like that syntax for systems where you can't edit html
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pfefferle yes and it's markdown like
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sandeepshetty I was toying with (Y) for likes...
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pfefferle you can parse the site for the p-name before saving it so it would be displayed nicely
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sandeepshetty I like the idea, looking forward to seeing your implementations.. I might try using @ as well this weekend
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pfefferle for example @http://notizblog.org/2013/06/18/the-rise-of-the-indieweb/ is becoming <a href="http://notizblog.org/2013/06/18/the-rise-of-the-indieweb/" class="u-in-reply-to">The rise of the IndieWeb</a>
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sandeepshetty (i use markdown)
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pfefferle i know ;)
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pfefferle i stalked your github page ;)
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sandeepshetty :)
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sandeepshetty I"m really glad there is so much wordpress action happening with this indieweb stuff.. it makes it accessible to lot of non-tech creators.
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sandeepshetty bbiab (working on implementing showing comments)
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pfefferle sandeepshetty: hopefully!
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pfefferle sandeepshetty: why? i like the json output ;)
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sandeepshetty pfefferle: lol :)
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sandeepshetty API first design
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sandeepshetty is fixing stupid css issues
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@TeaWithCarl @eschnou Laurent - are you going to participate in #indieweb "remotely" from France/Belgium? Do you know if there's live videocasting?
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@eschnou @TeaWithCarl Belgium :-) I will try to be around, at least on IRC, they do plan a remote feed but nothing confirmed yet. #indieweb
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acegiak sandeepshetty: i cant acd to the wiki. can you add whisperfollow to the projects page for me?
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sandeepshetty sure.. details?
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josephboyle.net edited /2013/Guest_List (-1) "/* Official Guest List */ Kaliya unable to attend" (view diff)
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sandeepshetty acegiak: should I put it under http://indiewebcamp.com/Projects#experimental ? How many users using it (need this to figure out sort order)? URL to project and personal domains of users using it
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josephboyle.net edited /WordPress (+43) "/* WordPress software */ I use WP" (view diff)
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josephboyle.net edited /WordPress (-2) "/* WordPress software */ too many brackets" (view diff)
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josephboyle.net edited /projects (+41) "/* WordPress */ I use WP" (view diff)
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sandeepshetty acegiak: and a short discription. should I just add http://wordpress.org/plugins/whisperfollow/ ?
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josephboyle.net edited /2013/Guest_List (+0) "/* Official Guest List */ do the math" (view diff)
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Loqi tantek: barnabywalters left you a message 5 hours, 4 minutes ago: RE php-mf2 id param — good plan, either that or give it a DOMNode as context and parse everything under that only. Will raise as issue.
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acegiak sandeep, i only know of myself machinespirit.net/acegiak using it personally and wordpress.org only gives me download numbers not continuing usage
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sandeepshetty Not sure if it should go under a plugins section under Wordpress or a separate project? There's also the /wordpress page where indieweb pluging could be added... suggestions?
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pfefferle a plugin section would nice. so others can set up their indieweb server with wordpress and a bunch of plugins
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pfefferle perhaps we can categorise it
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pfefferle POSSE plugins, Webmention plugins, ...
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acegiak url is http://wordpress.org/plugins/whisperfollow/
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acegiak and yeah experimental
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acegiak god i am on the worst connection
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acegiak short description: wordpress based social aggregator currently supports rss, atom and pubsubhubbub
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acegiak also, were you guys discussing the thing i modded on pfefferles theme to use <3 as a shortcode for likes?
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sandeepshetty yeah... check the logs
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acegiak will do when i have a less shitty connection. im keen to read your opinions
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acegiak ill hit the saxk and look on my actual desktop in the moening
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acegiak night
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sandeepshetty I like the idea.. I was toying with (Y) but I like the idea of syntax to add mf2 when you can't edit html
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Loqi [mention] http://pdxmob.com/indiewebcamp-2013/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/Guest_List (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://pdxmob.com/indiewebcamp-2013/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/Schedule (pingback)
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www.sandeep.io edited /projects (+297) "/* experimental */ Added WhisperFollow" (view diff)
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sandeepshetty acegiak: I use php-markdown-extra so I can do things like [Link Text](link){.in-reply-to}
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pdurbin I like the <table> support in php-markdown-extra. it works in ikiwiki
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sandeepshetty yep I also used footnote recently
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sandeepshetty also fenced code blocks (very useful when you mix lists and code blocks)
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notizblog.org edited /WordPress (+865) "/* WordPress software */" (view diff)
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sandeepshetty pfefferle: adding mf2 theme stuff as well?
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notizblog.org edited /WordPress (+4) "/* Plugins */" (view diff)
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pfefferle sandeepshetty: oh yes, thanks
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notizblog.org edited /WordPress (+262) "/* WordPress software */" (view diff)
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pfefferle sandeepshetty: do you think it's ok like that?
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sandeepshetty nice! good job adding links to all the plugins :
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pfefferle do you know any more?
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sandeepshetty nope. Not sure how wispherfollow fits in... and at some point we could also categorize plugings by http://indiewebcamp.com/building-blocks
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pfefferle thats what i tried
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sandeepshetty my bad I was thinking of comments as a building block
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sandeepshetty what you've done is perfect compared to that page
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pfefferle ah ok, i see… we could use sub cats if the posts section gets big enough
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sandeepshetty barnabywalters: I see you "liking" stuff on twitter. Do you use it as a bookmark?
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sandeepshetty s/liking/fav
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Loqi sandeepshetty meant to say: barnabywalters: I see you "fav" stuff on twitter. Do you use it as a bookmark?
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barnabywalters sandeepshetty: no, http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes?tagged=bookmark are my bookmarks
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barnabywalters liking on twitter is either emotional response or positive reinforcement
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sandeepshetty got it.
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sandeepshetty pfefferle: Re "sometimes you want to share a link and want to say that you like the idea" isn't sharing itself saying that you like the idea? Why would you share if you don't like it? and how is sharing+like different from sharing plus adding a comment?
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sandeepshetty pfefferle: trying to figure out how you think/feel about these things...
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pfefferle i won't say so… sometimes you share a link because you want to mention a bad example
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pfefferle that means share != like
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sandeepshetty yeah .. I though you might have that example in mind so I added that last question..
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pfefferle ;)
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barnabywalters it’s the “do I like the status update about my friend’s grandads’s funeral” thing
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sandeepshetty doesn't it make sense then to have a comment on your share that explicity says this is a bad example?
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barnabywalters what message is that sending?
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barnabywalters like/bookmark/favourite/share… the semantics and presentation of each is so fragmented
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sandeepshetty I'm guessing you *will* need to have a comment saying it's a bad example so the lack of a like along with it doesn't say much right?
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pfefferle that's perhaps a bad example… I about something like "Facebook even gets more evil and changed his tos once again"
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sandeepshetty barnabywalters: what do you mean by fragmented? I think of them as having subtle differences.
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barnabywalters yes, they have subtle differences, each tied to a particular silo
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sandeepshetty ah I see what you mean...
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sandeepshetty like using fav for bookmarking is just a workaround on twitter?
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barnabywalters can I do the equivalent of a facebook “like” on twitter? is there a way of sending the same message? and vice versa, for all silos+verbs
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sandeepshetty pfefferle: what would you do with that post? share and !like or just share or something else?
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pfefferle I wouldn't use something like dislike
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sandeepshetty barnabywalters: I think the twitter fav is very similar to the facebook like, both are meant to be primarily signals to the orignal poster (and not to your audience)
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pfefferle I think I would call it a share
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sandeepshetty pfefferle: so whats an example of when you need share and like together?
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pfefferle your post about using u-like ;)
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barnabywalters sandeepshetty: twitter fav !== fb like. Likes influence future advertising, future content, might show up on friends’ streams. favs are not broadcast, might influence ads but don’t influence future content
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melvster wait a share is not a like, a like is a +1
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melvster a share posts to your wall
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melvster time line
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melvster news feed
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melvster activity stream
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melvster whatever you call it
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sandeepshetty barnabywalters: ah you also talking off system side-effects
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barnabywalters sandeepshetty: *tangible*, *direct* effects
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barnabywalters seeing more content in your feed is a direct effect
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barnabywalters showing up on friend’s feeds is a direct effect
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grawity Twitter favs are kind of broadcast, just not in the main timeline
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barnabywalters twitter fav has no such effect
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barnabywalters unless people actively seek them out
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grawity (https://twitter.com/activity)
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pfefferle agreed, the twitter pendant to like is retweet ;)
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barnabywalters I found some great audio interviews with fb engineers which cover the multitude of effects liking things have, will try to post later
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sandeepshetty grawity: I see nothing on /activity because I don't follow anyone publicly... I have private lists..
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barnabywalters pfefferle: nope, retweet and like are very different again
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barnabywalters retweet doesn’t effect the future contents of your feed
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barnabywalters more like fb’s “share”
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sandeepshetty barnabywalters, pfefferle: I agree retweet = share
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pfefferle on that perspective yes i thought more about the counters behind the buttons
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sandeepshetty it's a signal to *your* audience and a show of support to the original poster by exposing them to your audeince
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barnabywalters that is one of the few examples of these “activities” which is vaguely consistent between silos
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sandeepshetty share = retweet = reblog
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barnabywalters still, the two are used in extremely different ways purely due to UI and UX differences
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barnabywalters e.g. twitter almost guarantees your posts showing up in order, so you can retweet a bunch of tweets then reply to/comment on them all publicly in one go
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barnabywalters !todo find examples, document on the wiki
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barnabywalters fb has no such guarantee, and so people don’t tend to do that
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sandeepshetty pfefferle: I like how Like is a low friction way to give feedback to the original author (without involving your audience)...
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sandeepshetty barnabywalters: I though you could sort your fb feed...
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pfefferle your and his audience
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sandeepshetty by recency as well
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barnabywalters sandeepshetty: but it’s up to user choice. so not consistent between users
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sandeepshetty right
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barnabywalters some will see them in order, others will see random disconnected posts
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sandeepshetty but since comments are nested does it matter?
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barnabywalters say you retweeted some stuff you strongly disagree with, to then comment on. Wouldn’t happen on FB due to danger of people not seeing comments
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pfefferle agreed
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sandeepshetty on fb you would share by additing additional text.. can't do it on twitter much because of char limit
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pfefferle thats also true
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sandeepshetty the twitter one is a work around
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barnabywalters indeed, but it shows that the two actions are not consistent
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barnabywalters they mean different things, due to very real UX differences
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sandeepshetty I think they are consistent is who it's directed at...
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pfefferle and often people doesn't see replys on twitter either
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sandeepshetty share and retweets are directed at your audience/followers
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sandeepshetty like/fav is directed more towards the orignal poster
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pfefferle but you can disable retweets from other users for your stream
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pfefferle sandeepshetty: agreed
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sandeepshetty right but that doesn't change the actors intention
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barnabywalters that is almost consistent, apart from fb likes inconsistently being broadcast to some friends
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sandeepshetty barnabywalters: right... mixing it with advertising messes (lies about) with the original intention
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barnabywalters so there are inconsistencies nested within the inconsistencies ;)
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sandeepshetty :)
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pfefferle ;)
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sandeepshetty It's also interesting that along that dimension (who it's directed towards) almost all of them are consistent - fb has share and like, twitter has retweet and fav and tumblr has reblog and like
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sandeepshetty but when you add other dimensions it becomes very inconsistent
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barnabywalters anyone know when twitter introduced fav, and whether or not it was based on paving a cowpath as retweet was?
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barnabywalters the examples where the community created the syntax interest me the most
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barnabywalters thing I like about twitter it that it’s unambiguous, which gives people much more freedom to experiment
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barnabywalters unlike facebook. no idea what tumblr is like as I’ve never used it
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sandeepshetty barnabywalters: you mean ambiguous? being unambiguous makes it more rigid and less flexible?
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barnabywalters no, with twitter you know that anything you post/retweet will turn up in your follower’s stream in order. also you know favs are not broadcast. facebook guarantees neither
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sandeepshetty ah.. favs are actually just published to another stream right on twitter? it's the same with tumblr.
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sandeepshetty so they do broadcast but to a minor stream that your followers have to explicitly check
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sandeepshetty hadn't thought of the time-based-ordering difference between fb and twitter till now.
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barnabywalters relephant to this discussion is tommorris’s sellotape blog post: http://tommorris.org/posts/2488
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tommorris Oh yes, that. ;)
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barnabywalters we should make a required/suggested reading list for people wanting to learn more about indieweb principles
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Loqi fo sho
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barnabywalters blog posts like that have an awful tendency to get lost/forgotten :(
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tommorris we should probably have a reading list page on the wiki
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barnabywalters we have a section on /posts but it’s a bit hidden/neglected
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barnabywalters ah, http://indiewebcamp.com/Posts_about_the_IndieWeb
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tommorris.org created /reading-list (+190) "starting page" (view diff)
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tommorris oh, wait
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barnabywalters probably redirect reading-list to the other one. it has a long and nasty title
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tommorris.org edited /Posts_about_the_IndieWeb (+48) "/* See Also */ adding reading-list" (view diff)
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bret.io edited /2013/Guest_List (+2) "/* Creators */ Updated my Domain name" (view diff)
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@minggwu From CERN's Citizen Cyberspace Centre and the New York Hall of Science to The National Writing Project and IndieWebCamp check out these amaz
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bret Woo iwc is tomorrrow!
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sandeepshetty does anyone know the plan for remote participation?
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sandeepshetty anyoen doing etherpad for people that might be able to connect with video?
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sandeepshetty s/might/might not/
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Loqi sandeepshetty meant to say: anyoen doing etherpad for people that might not be able to connect with video?
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barnabywalters sandeepshetty: usually we say hello early on using G+, then communicate using IRC and etherpad for the rest of the event
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sandeepshetty thats sounds like a good plan
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barnabywalters but hanging out on G+ might be fun as there’ll be a few of us this time
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barnabywalters the etherpads tend to be the best way of interacting
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barnabywalters see http://waterpigs.co.uk/articles/remote-participation
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barnabywalters based on my first experiences last year, updated after tending to remote participation at IWCUK
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sandeepshetty yep I've seen it.. I remeber seeing etherpads at some other event that tantek went to.. was it fedsocweb... I think etherpad is a good way to record a session
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barnabywalters etherpad is great, especially if we use wiki syntax and then dump it on the wiki for later
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sandeepshetty (Y) or maybe <3
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tommorris plans to be on Google Hangout tomorrow
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barnabywalters I *love* the idea of using <3 as like syntax
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barnabywalters it’s already an established microsyntax
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sandeepshetty I'm used to (y) from using exodus and y!chat
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sandeepshetty in the good old days :)
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tommorris Skype uses (y) and (n)
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tommorris the Skype smiley shortcuts are burning their way into my mind as we use Skype for work chat
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barnabywalters hm, never actually used (y) and (n) in skype
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barnabywalters when i used skype I communicated mainly using (ninja)
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sandeepshetty facebook also uses (y) and so does gmail I think
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barnabywalters we seriously need to document these
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barnabywalters the old microsyntax wiki is long dead
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sandeepshetty but <3 looks so much better
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barnabywalters sandeepshetty: yep, there’s no need to turn it into an emoticon for it’s meaning to be clear
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sandeepshetty there's always been this discussion about how (Y) look like a crotch
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barnabywalters yes, there is that
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barnabywalters or the CND symbol
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barnabywalters a little
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sandeepshetty CND?
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barnabywalters http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CND
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barnabywalters wrong way round, but I still pattern-matched it
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sandeepshetty ah like an upside down peace sign?
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barnabywalters yeah, which might not be such a bad connotation
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www.sandeep.io created /microsyntax (+373) "Created page with "{{stub}} A place to brainstorm indieweb microsyntax especially for plaintext [[notes]] * <nowiki>@http://example.com => <a href="http://example.com" class="in-reply-to"></nowik..."" (view diff)
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@adaptivepattern @borismus Intriguing ~ where practical. #IndieWebCamp #IndependentContentAuthor #ShareFreely #Identity #FreedomOfExpression PersonalDomain
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bnvk_ tylergillies: lo pilgrim
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tylergillies yo
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@erinjo @borismus You can add yourself to the remote group here to get looped in: http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/Guest_List
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@sandeepshetty RT @pfefferle: My Webmention plugin for #WordPress should be kind of stable now… Time to ping the #IndieWeb… http://notizblog.org/2013/06/20/5231/
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tantek good afternoon from Portland
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tantek.com edited /microsyntax (+96) "see previous work" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /microsyntax (+38) "No-one’s going to type atsign aitch tee tee pee colon slash slash domainname.com :)" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /microsyntax (+294) "proper sections for brainstorming, see also, dfn" (view diff)
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www.sandeep.io edited /microsyntax (+313) "/* Brainstorming */ The thing following the @ should be a link to a post." (view diff)
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@kevinmarks Off to Portland for indiewebcamp (@ Norman Y. Mineta San José International Airport (SJC) - @flysjc w/ 31 others) https://foursquare.com/kevinmarks/checkin/51c4bc23498ed5c6feca4a8f?s=oVsyIZmMECkUOScJHxNKlZmldSE&ref=tw
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sandeepshetty is making UI changes to accommodate comments and other mentions http://www.sandeep.io/39
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sandeepshetty so IWC starts at 22:00 hrs for me :) http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/converted.html?iso=20130622T0930&p1=202&p2=44
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sandeepshetty What time do remote participants need to be there? I'm guessing after breakfast?
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@stein2 RT @t: What is the #indieweb and @indiewebcamp?
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www.sandeep.io edited /indieweb-implementations (+94) (view diff)
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www.sandeep.io edited /indieweb-implementations (+27) (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /indieweb-implementations (+228) "new first column, POSSE support, Falcon supports many auto-embeds using CASSIS" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /indieweb-implementations (+124) "ought to be ordered by IndieMark features/levels" (view diff)
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www.sandeep.io edited /indieweb-implementations (+59) (view diff)
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fu9ar good talk, thanks for the heads up
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tantek welcome fu9ar!
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tantek hello Guest7825 - are you visiting from OSBridge?
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@gmorehou #osb13 #TakingDownFacebook When $power or $money doesn't like something on indieweb, indieweb will suddenly not be a solution. #p2p
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Guest7825 i am! i'm in the atrium at this very moment
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tantek Guest7825 - awesome - I was the loud indieweb advocate :)
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tantek (in the atrium)
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Guest7825 and convincing, too
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Guest7825 if i could just change my password, i could have a name of my very own -- but that can wait till after
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@benwerd That thing where I hate flying and I'm never flying again, but I'm actually in a plane and have to suck it up. Coming atcha, #indiewebcamp.
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@RTp2p RT @gmorehou: #osb13 #TakingDownFacebook When $power or $money doesn't like something on indieweb, indieweb will suddenly not be a solution…
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tantek.com edited /projects (+21) "move WhisperFollow into other projects since it's a plugin not a primary hosting project" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /RSS (+750) "stub copied from microformats site" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /rss (+17) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /microsyntax (+191) "/* Brainstorming */ not into @-post-URL" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /microsyntax (+246) "/* Brainstorming */ -1 for @mentions of post URLs (and can we please all sign our discussion contributions?)" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /microsyntax (+2) "/* Brainstorming */ wording" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2013/06/21/1/indiewebcamp linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/Schedule (pingback)
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tantek.com edited /IndieMark (+1047) "iterate on idea capture, start documenting Level 0" (view diff)
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tantek hey everyone - I've written a brainstorm draft for IndieMark Level 0: http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieMark#Level_0
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tantek please review - feedback welcome!
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tantek working on Level 1 next
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tantek welcome mathpunk!
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tantek heading to Pints with ozten
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tantek for the IndieWebCamp pre-party! http://plancast.com/p/ic3e
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tantek starts at 16:30 PDT
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solomonkinard.com edited /2013/Guest_List (+344) "/* Creators */" (view diff)
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@benwerd Anyone else landing at ~4:50pm interested in sharing a cab from PDX to the #indiewebcamp preparty? @kevinmarks @haxor
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@benwerd Another great benefit of the #IndieWeb: being able to edit typos in your status updates. http://werd.io/view/51c4e161bed7de073150079b
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www.sandeep.io edited /microsyntax (+94) "/* Brainstorming */ I guess we need pfefferle and acegiak to clarify their use case." (view diff)
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www.sandeep.io edited /microsyntax (-6) "/* Brainstorming */ doesn't apply to <3" (view diff)
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@jessykate Bustin a move with my jetpack and boombotix at the opening happy hour for #indiewebcamp. let's hack some awesome federated shit!
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fu9ar \window prev
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www.sandeep.io edited /microsyntax (-81) "/* Brainstorming */ Added link to IRC discussion." (view diff)