#indiewebcamp 2013-07-01

2013-07-01 UTC
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bret yeah it seems to work now
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bret cool
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bret openid is confusing
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aaronpk agreed
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bret but that one paragraph in the IWC wiki cleared all the confusion up
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aaronpk oh good
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bret in terms of making it work
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aaronpk we used to use openid for the wiki logins before indieauth was around
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bret lol at twitter: http://www.onebigfluke.com/2013/06/tcos-dns-resolves-to-nothing.html
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aaronpk nice
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aaronpk hm what is the commonly-recognized name of the Google Authenticator system
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aaronpk Google Authenticator is just the name of one app that can generate the codes, seems like the algorithm is called TOTP, but I don't think that's very freindly sounding
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bret Two factor authentication?
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aaronpk it's not really two factor if there isn't another factgor
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bret drop box calls it that, same with ICBIT
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aaronpk usually this is used in conjunction with a password, but in this case it's just going to be one factor, the code
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bret wow open ID is insane
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aaronpk lol
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bret there are like 3 different profile settings?
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bret wtf?
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bret Talk about trying to do too much
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aaronpk wow TOTP is like magic
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bret :)
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aaronpk this is totally going to work
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bret the second factor could be a password
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bret :p
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aaronpk no passwords!
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bret no passwords!
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aaronpk better
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aaronpk tantek: continuing the password-less login trend, i'm about 70% done adding google authenticator support to indieauth :)
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bret aaronpk are you worried about authenticator things getting hacked?
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aaronpk how do you mean?
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bret blizzard authenticator was hacked a year or so ago
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bret everyone had to reset their authenticators
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bret im not sure, some data was stolen and they made everyone reset their authenticators
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aaronpk goes to read up on the attack
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bret aaronpk http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/securityupdate.html
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aaronpk someone hacked into their database?
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bret something like that
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bret http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/08/09/its-official-blizzard-hacked-account-information-stolen/
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aaronpk holy crap it works
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bret :)
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bret what do I add to my site?
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aaronpk nothing, heh
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aaronpk that's the weird part
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bret o.0
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aaronpk this is the first one that establishes the idea of an "indieauth account"
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aaronpk cause it requires the initial setup to establish the shared secret
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bret sounds like a lot of responsibility
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bret but I like the idea of authenticators
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aaronpk only a little more than what currently exists
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tantek.com edited /webmention (+256) "happy to draft a rel-webmention spec if we decide we want that" (view diff)
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bret does anyone here use the smallest federated wiki?
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tantek.com edited /Atom (+130) "list indieweb implementations explicitly" (view diff)
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bret another indieweb implementation :) http://publog.stuifzandapp.com/
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aaronpk whoa where'd you find that?
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aaronpk whoa, perl??
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aaronpk wow ok this is cool
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aaronpk really need an indieauth logo now
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Loqi 7 files modified, 1 new files in aaronpk/IndieAuth/master by aaronpk https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieAuth/compare/5cb8670bcc9a...e05ab84edacf
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Loqi aaronpk: Adds support for Google Authenticator's TOTP as an authentication mechanism
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aaronpk whoa
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aaronpk that's slick
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aaronpk anyone else want to try?
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tantek is anyone else getting all the desperate Twitter "Vine: A new app for creating short, looping videos" emails?
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aaronpk heh, i ahven't gotten that yet
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tantek.com edited /responses (+638) "re-order points to flow better, note liked-item sounds better than "thing" or "object"" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk - I'm getting them on some of my secondary twitter accounts
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aaronpk crazy
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tantek hey I noticed in Barnaby's UI http://indiewebcamp.com/Taproot#Notes that he has a "Bookmark" button
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tantek (it shows for a few frames in the animated gif)
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tantek but there's no mention of bookmark on http://indiewebcamp.com/Taproot
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tantek aaronpk - do you post "bookmarks" ?
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tantek or are they just notes to you?
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aaronpk I do here http://aaron.pk/bookmarks/ and am planning to move them to aaronparecki.com soon
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aaronpk looking at aaron.pk/bookmarks shows a variety of ways I like to publish bookmarks
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aaronpk i give them tags, and sometimes I include a snippet of the page text to remind myself why I bookmarked it
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tantek aaronpk - care to start a stub? http://indiewebcamp.com/bookmark
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tantek even with just that
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aaronpk sure, I'll just go log in to the wiki with google authenticator :D
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tantek I don't really collect/post them myself
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tantek so… how does the google authenticator flow make sure you own the domain you claim to be?
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aaronpk you have to log in with another provider first :)
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aaronpk then you get the QR code you scan into the app
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tantek are you using 2-factor google login auth?
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aaronpk try it out, let me know what you think. just go to indieauth.com and sign in, then it will prompt you
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tantek aaronpk - sigh, the logged out page still links to Special:OpenIDLogin
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tantek :(
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=Special:UserLogout&returnto=bookmark
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tantek please fix?
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aaronpk urgh really? where?
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tantek " log in again "
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tantek links to
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aaronpk i sign out all the time...
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/Special:OpenIDLogin
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caseorganic tantek: aaronpk: i'd like to write a paper on indieweb for an IEEE journal with you. i can do a significant portion of the writing if desired. thoughts?
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tantek papers are dead
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tantek and journals would just slow us down
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aaronpk ah! now I see the link
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tantek I'm happy to let other anthropologists/historians document our progress
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tantek they can copy liberally from the wiki anyway
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aaronpk sounds like that's what it would be
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tantek note that the link is RED ;)
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tantek aaronpk - bug is also documented here: http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/#Bug_Fixes
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aaronpk ok, let me track this down
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aaronpk wtf is referencing that openid plugin...
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tantek isn't is just an admin page you have to edit?
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tantek I'd have edited it ...
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tantek ;)
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aaronpk ahhh
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tantek note the TWO places that link to the OpenID login (documented on http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/#Bug_Fixes )
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tantek hints strongly for admin/bureaucrat status for User:Tantek.com ;)
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aaronpk happy to do that if I can figure out how
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tantek I'm sure tommorris could help
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aaronpk there it is http://indiewebcamp.com/MediaWiki:Logouttext
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aaronparecki.com edited /MediaWiki:Logouttext (-2) "remove reference to OpenID plugin" (view diff)
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tantek um when I login it says tantek.com is a provider?!?
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aaronpk uhoh
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tantek lols
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bret aaronpk, I found it on eschnou's comment thread
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aaronpk bret: oh awesome
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bret also I would like to try out the google authenticator, but not right now IM about to grab some food
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aaronpk tantek: uhh it thinks your tantek.com is an app.net login
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tantek whut?
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bret wouldnt a peer reviewed journal article provide additional validation to these efforts?
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aaronpk I don't know...something got confused on may 20
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tantek bret - not really. shipping is what counts.
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tantek there are metric tons of peer reviewed journal articles about XML and RDF
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tantek and they added exactly ...
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tantek ZERO additional validation in practice.
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aaronpk ooh... I think that database ID used to be openID
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tantek the ONLY reason I can think of for bothering with writing a journal article is if it somehow helps get NSF grant funding or something
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tantek as a way to fund / dedicate more of your time to open source indieweb efforts.
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tantek but if that's the case, better to be up front about it
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tantek bret - there's something really wrong when people still take seriously the idea of peer reviewed MSWORD/PDF documents about THE WEB.
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tantek It's like, um, THE WEB is here to replace your legacy 20th century tech. If you're still using that legacy tech, you don't get the web.
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bret does anyone remember the name of that wikipedia editor from the philippines was? he was at the preIWC drinkup
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tantek no idea
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bret tantek, my advisor :(
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bret he publishes like 3 papers a year
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tantek bret - tenure inertia.
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bret this is about physics stuff though, not the web. Its less shocking at least
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tantek bret - that being said, if your advisor is willing to let you spend your grad school time writing up a paper for/about the indieweb, by all means do so.
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bret no he would tell me to major in something different
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bret XD
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tantek yeah
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aaronpk tantek: i think you already have admin+bereaucrat status on the wiki
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bret I would like to try and make my work more visible using the web though
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aaronpk as of Jan 20
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tantek interesting, well apparently I can edit http://indiewebcamp.com/MediaWiki:Logouttext
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aaronparecki.com deleted /MediaWiki:Watchnologintext "remove openid"
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aaronparecki.com deleted /MediaWiki:Nosuchuser "remove openid"
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aaronparecki.com deleted /MediaWiki:Nologin "remove openid"
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tantek um - is it really a good idea to DELETE those pages?!?
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aaronpk yea, it falls back to the default
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bret ok see you all later
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aaronparecki.com deleted /MediaWiki:Nocreatetext "remove openid"
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aaronpk ok that's all of them
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aaronparecki.com edited /wiki/ (-493) "/* Bug Fixes */ removed references to OpenID login page from all system messages" (view diff)
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tantek woot!
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Loqi :D
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aaronparecki.com created /bookmark (+527) "stub bookmark article" (view diff)
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aaronpk ok well adding google authenticator support to indieauth was awesome, but not quite as amusing as if I had added fax logins
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tantek is waiting for postcard printing/mailing
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tantek (ala what banks do)
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aaronpk that could be arranged
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tantek too bad there's no "adr:" URI scheme :P
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tantek (I think, ahem.)
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aaronpk it would just have to find an h-adr on the home page
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tantek not *an* h-adr
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tantek but an h-adr inside the representative hCard for the page
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aaronpk right
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aaronpk that doens't sound too bad
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tantek heh
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tantek oh boy
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aaronpk i love the idea of having to wait 3 days to log in to a site
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tantek don't close that tab!
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aaronpk srsly, cause it'd need to set some sort of secret in the browser so that somebody who looks at the postcard en route can't just enter the code to log in
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tantek right
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aaronpk here we go https://click2mail.com/by-service/mol-classic-api/postcard-4-25x6#&slider1=2
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aaronpk and http://www.postalmethods.com/lp/postcard-api
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aaronpk oh jeez, postalmethods.com is the same company as I use for sending faxes via email
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aaronpk LOL
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tantek might as well call it legacycom.ms
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aaronpk oh i found a nicer one http://www.stannp.com/developers.php
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aaronpk whoa, super expensive, I think they expect full-color stuff
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aaronpk well, nice to know that's possible
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tantek is cranking on breaking out IndieMark areas/levels into multiple dimensions, so independents can decide if they want to achieve whole levels, or level up just in a particular area.
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aaronpk sweet
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tantek in rough order of ease of implementation (by personal and collective experience) and approximate number of folks that have implemented it already (as proof that more folks having done it = easier to do)
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tantek LOTS of incrementalism
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tantek gamifying indiewebness :D
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aaronpk i still think we should tie this in with openbadges :)
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tantek aaronpk - feel free - I'm not going to put any energy into open badges
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tantek also I feel like IndieMark is too fluid to lock down with any static badges as of yet
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tantek maybe by 2014 indiewebcamp we'll have enough data to do so
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aaronpk once the levels/marks are broken out explicitly I can do a couple, at least a few of the straightforward ones
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tantek it's going to be too fine grained for that I think
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aaronpk ah maybe
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tantek because for us, minimalism, and incrementalism, is much more important a motivator (being able to quickly get stuff working)
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tantek than a shiny badge
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tantek maybe we could brainstorm something akin to the different "skill" badges that Foursquare has
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tantek where you can level up in each "skill"
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tantek or "expertise" really - like coffee, or pizza, or museums
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bret Maybe there could be some kind of website you can make your site interact with.
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bret And it rates your domain based on the different kinds of interactions that have been successfully completed.
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tantek testing some of this will be hard
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tantek er, validating
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tantek we'll probably have to do it by self-assertion and/or peer-review
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tantek can we call it the pony-validator? ;)
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bret Yeah, I hear Brett from google likes ponys.
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bret I mean, it could be automatically validated by, this domain sent a we mention, but it was missing this microformat field
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bret But the automaticness might have to be self asserted.
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bret Or peer validated.
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bret Hey tantek, Before working at Microsoft did you work in a variety of software engineer roles at Sun Microsystems, Oracle Corporation and Apple Computer?
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tantek yes
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bret Great now we have a needed citation for your Wikipedia page http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-06-30/line/1372646234
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bret Thanks to the irc logs
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tantek uh, I'm not sure IRC logs are sufficient for a WP citation ;)
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bret Oh really? :(
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bret That's silly
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tantek especially when they're self-asserted by the subject of the citation
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bret Hey aaronpk , is tantek lying?
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tantek citations for sources that assert facts
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tantek and the object of the fact is usually insufficient as a source for the fact, regardless of medium (personal website, irc, etc.)
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bret Weird
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tantek bret - pretty sure similar standards apply to your academic paper citations :)
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bret That's true, but I don't write about people
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bret Typically
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bret I was going to ask you how you got involved with web standards, but Wikipedia kind of gave on okay picture :)
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tantek bret - was asked to implement CSS in IE/Mac while at Microsoft, eventually got involved with CSSWG directly when my questions got too hard for others to answer
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tantek 1998-05 participated in first CSSWG f2f meeting and from there it was all downhill :)
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tantek in *my* first CSSWG f2f meeting - the group had obviously met before then
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tantek some of that is in the interview I did with Eric Meyer
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tantek first link here: tantek.com/w/TantekInterviews
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tantek and plenty more history too if you're curious
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tantek.com edited /IndieMark (+4417) "incorporated all idea areas into specific axes with levels - still editing across levels / axes for consistency" (view diff)
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tantek phew that was a lot of typing. and I'm still not done making it consistent.
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tantek brb switching locations
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieMark#draft_axes is sort of the most up to date if you're curious about the areas and what each level in each area entails
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tantek a lot of this is educated intuitive guesses as what would be good to measure
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tantek so please feel free to question and provide feedback.
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tantek e.g. things being too easy, too hard, not incremental enough, not useful enough
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bret Sorry was in between locations. On my cell right now. Awesome! I'll read all if that. The typing is appreciated. :)
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bret It's not every day one runs into the mythical standards author.
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bret could the photo post type be more general? Like a media post type? That seems like it could accomidate video, comics, art, etc instead of just your plain singular photo instagram type post
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bret if a site wants to categorize them separately so that they are easier to sort, it seems like some kind of metainfo could handle that
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bret like a tago
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bret tag*
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bret similar to how article can handle blog posts, news articles, academic papers etc
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tantek bret - if you look at how instagram and flickr do photos vs. videos - they do present a different UI - which is a hint that they may be different post types.
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tantek different UI = might want different post type
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bret hrrm, ill go check it out
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tantek blog posts, news articles, academic papers don't really have different UI
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tantek minor stylesheet differences maybe
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bret on instagram one shows a caption, and the other shows a big arrow in the middle
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bret play arrow
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tantek and touching does different things. you can add people to IG photos, but you can't to videos etc.
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tantek bret - feel free to update indiewebcamp.com/Instagram with these observations
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tantek.com edited /IndieMark (+2479) "sync/merge Level 1 overall requirements with axis-specific Level 1 requirements, note other Level overall requirements need similar such syncing, a bit more intro/summary/intent text" (view diff)
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tantek and a whole bunch more typing
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tantek ok I feel like I've got a reasonably solid first draft of IndieMark Level 0 and Level 1 requirements
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tantek please review and see how they "feel"
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tantek pretty much everyone who's been to an IndieWebCamp should be able to pass Level 0 with their personal site, and most of Level 1. Hopefully those that haven't fully met Level 1 will find the additional pieces both useful and not too hard to implement.
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tantek Levels 2+ are still very much in flux, but there are some general ideas there coalescing.
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tantek The axes provide some good clues as to how Level 2+ will shape up.
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tantek next I need to apply what the axes say for each axis to the overall Level definitions and see how Level 2+ turn out to see if they're sensible and have good overall "themes"
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tantek off to figure out evening meal - later!
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bret aaronpk, are you around? Can I try the google authenticator with indieauth?
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bret.io edited /How_to_set_up_OpenID_on_your_own_domain (+338) (view diff)
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bret.io edited /How_to_set_up_OpenID_on_your_own_domain (+3) "/* Delegating your domain to myOpenID */ Added question about the safety of removing non-valid html5 code from the openID header" (view diff)
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pfefferle good morning
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tantek good evening pfefferle
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pfefferle hey tantek
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pfefferle a question… are you PuSHing you main-page or only the feed?
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tantek I don't know how to PuSH an HTML page - do you have a URL to a how to?
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tantek I would prefer to PuSH my main page.
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pfefferle ok, let me run some more tests, then I write a small summary at the wiki
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bret.io edited /Instagram (+327) "/* Instagram */ Added some UX observations" (view diff)
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pfefferle but I think superfeedr does support html pages the same way you push feeds
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bret tantek, you could push your atom feed :)
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tantek bret I do
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bret oh, cool
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bret listening to your interview
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bret zeldman*
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+31) "/* Working On */ Show actual original tweet user (instead of just _) got working as of yesterday, just tested it." (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+125) "/* Working On */ post reply to any URL" (view diff)
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Loqi barnabywalters: tantek left you a message on 6/30 at 11:21am: ok I did the git tag / push things you said to do for cassis - did that work?
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Loqi barnabywalters: tantek left you a message on 6/30 at 11:21am: v0.1.15886
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barnabywalters tantek: it worked! https://packagist.org/packages/tantek/cassis#v0.1.15886.2 — so the next thing is getting it to autoupdate when you push — that’s an even simpler one-off task
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JonathanNeal good morning
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erikmaarten morning!
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JonathanNeal what's new, erikmaarten?
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erikmaarten JonathanNeal: nothing much today, I think ... saw some talk about IndieAuth getting support for "Google Authenticator" though I haven't tried it.
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JonathanNeal erikmaarten: cool.
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erikmaarten And my own site is getting closer to useful, added a good tag filter that catches arbitrary number of tags from the url to filter posts ...
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erikmaarten :)
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JonathanNeal I'm going to try and log in to the site again. I keep dropping the protocol on my URLS and it makes the authenticator sad.
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JonathanNeal *try to log in
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erikmaarten ah
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JonathanNeal erikmaarten: what's your site?
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erikmaarten what's your website, by the way?
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erikmaarten I was gonna say ...
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erikmaarten erikmaarten.com
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JonathanNeal jonathantneal.com
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erikmaarten your're not on http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC-people right?
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erikmaarten by the way, my home page doesn't actually lead to anything, it's a bit of a work in progress
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erikmaarten (haven't decided about a front-page feed yet ...)
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JonathanNeal What do your site run on?
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JonathanNeal I do not have permission to add myself to http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC_People
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JonathanNeal But I did log in successfully.
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erikmaarten oh, you're using disqus
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@julien51 @beaulebens @cfinke #indieWeb FTW! cc @t
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erikmaarten that's odd, when I added myself there no special permission was required
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erikmaarten perhaps something happened during the latest round of modifications to IndieAuth, but if you're logged in successfully that shouldn't be the problem ...
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erikmaarten my site runs on ... my home-brewed code, in php
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erikmaarten and a database
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erikmaarten what about yours, JonathanNeal?
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JonathanNeal it runs on wordpress :\
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JonathanNeal but i'm in the process of writing my own cms
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erikmaarten I had a Wordpress(.org) site some while ago, it's very nice because it's easy to get going and everything works well out of the box ...
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JonathanNeal Agreed. The PHP is really messy though.
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JonathanNeal Writing a plugin or a theme is not worth the trouble.
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erikmaarten when I encountered indieweb a little while ago though, I figured I'd just write everything on my own, incrementally, because it's a nice feeling to build everything bottom-up (when it works ...) :)
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erikmaarten what are you using for writing your own cms?
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JonathanNeal I'm writing that myself, too.
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JonathanNeal I'm working on a spec for pages, and I finished a spec for content @ https://gist.github.com/jonathantneal/5889625
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@xtof_fr #indieweb #fr http://www.egad.in/
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erikmaarten JonathanNeal: That's a nice and structured approach. So you're not going to use a dbms, then?
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JonathanNeal I have nothing against a database, and something like this could be worked into MySQL. I don't know much about Mongo, but probably that too.
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erikmaarten I chose MySQL simply because I have used it before and I don't have any practical experience with other good ways of storing information. I think barnabywalters stores everything in flat files, though I don't know exactly how.
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JonathanNeal What are you hoping to learn these days?
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pdurbin what a great question :)
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erikmaarten indeed!
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erikmaarten I'm hoping to get more experience of web development in general, from the website project. Not a very accomplished developer yet. So I guess that's a broad goal ... I might go over to learning Ruby later, hope that might be time well spent, and I didn't actually intend to write my site in PHP from the beginning.
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erikmaarten any learning goals, JonathanNeal and pdurbin? :)
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JonathanNeal Those all sound like good goals. I like the last goal, because it will involve working with HTML, CSS, and JavaScript.
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pdurbin erikmaarten: sure, that's what http://irclog.greptilian.com/wonderstudy/2013-05-11 is all about :)
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erikmaarten I was actually planning to write it in Python first, but support for Python is so-so on web hosts so I dropped it.
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erikmaarten pdurbin: nice! will keep an eye on it!
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pdurbin erikmaarten: the short answer (about learning goals) is that I'm working my way through these: https://github.com/pdurbin/wiki/commits/master/java/javaone/2012.mdwn :)
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pdurbin .mdwn extension but it's actually yaml :) ... see also http://wiki.greptilian.com/markdown/as-yaml :)
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pdurbin here's the yaml/markdown rendered as html: http://wiki.greptilian.com/java/javaone/2012/
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JonathanNeal Immediately, I would love to find a job, then (perhaps unrelated) to complete the spec for this simple CMS and to implement it. Ultimately, I would love to make anything that makes the web more accessible to everyone.
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erikmaarten pdurbin: that's a rather hefty collection!
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pdurbin yeah.. taking me a while :)
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pdurbin my "reviews" are usually one sentence. or a few words :)
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erikmaarten JonathanNeal: sounds like a good plan. What kind of job are you looking for?
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JonathanNeal I am looking for a job involving HTML, CSS, JavaScript, and innovation, in an OpenSource or OpenSource-friendly company, leading or working in a small team.
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erikmaarten I imagine a fair deal of the job postings on hackernews might satisfy those criteria, haven't looked too closely though.
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erikmaarten anyway, off to bed now
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erikmaarten good night
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Loqi buenas noches
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erikmaarten and pdurbin, some broken links here: http://wiki.greptilian.com/vim/
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erikmaarten for your vim dotfiles, perhaps that's not a very big priority haha
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Loqi awesome
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JonathanNeal goodnight erikmaarten
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pdurbin erikmaarten: crap. yeah. from before I moved them to github. will fix. thanks!
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@xtof_fr @nicolas2fr et @egadenne
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@xtof_fr #authentification par mail : #indieauth supporte #persona
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@xtof_fr @PhilJ FYI http://www.flickr.com/photos/37996578526@N01/9184723672
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@CupUpdates RT @xtof_fr: @PhilJ FYI http://www.flickr.com/photos/37996578526@N01/9184723672
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@egadenne Ma nvelle identité sur le Web est basée sur un nom de domaine ultra-court inspirée par le mvt #IndieWeb =&gt
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Loqi http://www.egad.in
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Loqi et toi ?
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@laVeilleTechno RT @egadenne: Ma nvelle identité sur le Web est basée sur un nom de domaine ultra-court inspirée par le mvt #IndieWeb =&gt
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Loqi htt...
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@veganstraightedge Last night I dreamt of #indieweb improvements I need to my site and woke up with "Volcano Girls" by Veruca Salt in my head.
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Loqi [mention] http://www.howlife.asia/blog/uncategorized/where-the-free-software-movement-went-wrong-and-how-to-fix-it/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/projects (pingback)
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tantek erikmaarten: re: "I figured I'd just write everything on my own, incrementally, because it's a nice feeling to build everything bottom-up" welcome to the club :)
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tantek most of us are building our own - because we all have different itches to scratch, and different ways to scratch them
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aaronpk bret: yea go ahead and try out google authenticator! just sign in on indieauth.com and you'll see the prompt
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tantek.com edited /How_to_set_up_OpenID_on_your_own_domain (+209) "create issues subsection, respond" (view diff)
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ozten aaronpk: One thing that confuses me about http://news.indiewebcamp.com/ is comments. Is displaying them a TODO?
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ozten http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2013/06/28/1/indieweb has comments but http://news.indiewebcamp.com/post/aaronparecki.com/replies/2013/06/28/1/indieweb only has the instructions for commenting
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aaronpk comments will only appear there if the comment is also syndicated to indienews
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aaronpk 3) add a u-syndication link to IndieNews
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Loqi !calc 3) add a u-syndication link to IndieNews
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aaronpk that's required for the comment as well
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ozten aaronpk: cool. Seems like noone has done it in practise yet
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aaronpk here's a couple http://news.indiewebcamp.com/post/werd.io/event/51c94deebed7de5c2386a1b4/unofficial-portland-post-indiewebcamp-meetup
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aaronpk guess i'm not displaying the comment count on the link to "comments"
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aaronpk uhoh, my site does not follow the new authorship rules and now sandeepshetty's reply is blank, heh http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2013/06/28/1/indieweb
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tantek aaronpk - looks like we might need a comment validator :)
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tantek that shows comment components including authorship
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aaronpk ah, like one step past the pin13.net uf2 thing?
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aaronpk yea actually we need a library that handles all the authorship rules. i bet barnabywalters is already working on that
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tantek right, something that applies the /authorship and /comment-presentation algorithms and shows you what it finds
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barnabywalters aaronpk: already working? actually mostly done
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aaronpk YESSS
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tantek barnaby's parser has a method for it
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/authorship#php_mf2_getAuthor
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aaronpk great
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sandeepshetty FYI, I'm also working on an /authorship lib based on the latest edits to that page along with some html pages to test it out.
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tantek great!
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barnabywalters it’s not perfect but I’m using it and it hasn’t gone wrong so far
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barnabywalters mine doesn’t fetch the rel-author URL yet, only looks in the current context
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aaronpk excellent. I will replace my hacked up version with that library then!
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tantek aaronpk - any chance of a simple UI to it on pin13.net?
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aaronpk yea I'd be up for that
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aaronpk hey we now have 5 different domains on indienews! http://news.indiewebcamp.com/
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barnabywalters is working on a friendly wm+pb sending+debugging UI which includes a visual h-entry validator
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aaronpk nice
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aaronpk public or part of your site?
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barnabywalters aaronpk: both
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aaronpk sweet
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barnabywalters sandeepshetty: you mention you have HTML pages to test authorship — I do to, we should make a public compliance suite
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barnabywalters *too
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sandeepshetty I don't have them yet... working on it... maybe I could use yours?
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aaronpk someone already added a bunch to a github repo...let me find that
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aaronpk crap..where did that go
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barnabywalters mine are mostly embedded in the test files in my php-mf-cleaner repo
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barnabywalters but as I mentioned, only test one-page authorship, no fetching of remote rel-author URLs yet
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barnabywalters mf-cleaner is purely functional, no side effects
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aaronpk seems reasonable to leave it up to the user to decide how to fetch the page if needed
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ozten aaronpk: I wrote up instructions for using Squid as an outbound proxy cache https://etherpad.mozilla.org/browserid-squid-proxy
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ozten This should speed up IndieAuth w/o too much new code
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aaronpk as long as mf-cleaner has a clear response when it's required to go fetch the rel-author remote URL
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aaronpk ozten: oh awesome! I ended up doing a bunch of refactoring this weekend and sped it up a ton already
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ozten very cool
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aaronpk it will use the last known valid list of providers for returning users, and it gives you a "re-scan" button to go fetch and verify providers from your site manually
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sandeepshetty barnabywalters: I was inspired by something pfefferle did the other day.... Will be hosting the html pages on gist so ppl can quickly fork and test.
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sandeepshetty I don't write tests :p
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aaronpk oh that's a good idea
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aaronpk facebook's new hashtag thing is cool https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/indieweb
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sandeepshetty well that was foolish of me to expect that to be public (not require a login)
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aaronpk heh, it's not?
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sandeepshetty requires fb login
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aaronpk boo
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aaronpk we're going to need to make a microformats feed -> ifttt hook :)
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aaronpk oh jeez
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aaronpk just got this in my google alerts feed
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aaronpk "Google Alerts no longer supports RSS delivery"
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aaronpk apparently so did everyone else https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Google+Alerts+no+longer+supports+RSS+delivery%22
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aaronpk apparently this is the next step in Google killing off RSS
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barnabywalters wait, why is that happening?
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barnabywalters has never used google alerts
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aaronpk you know about it though right?
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barnabywalters not really
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barnabywalters looks it up
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aaronpk they had two delivery options, emails and an RSS feed
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barnabywalters they email you search results? ???
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aaronpk yea, as they find them
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barnabywalters fair enough
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@xtof_fr #Orange #1 sur les #silos sociaux. Un moyen de contourner les centres d'appels. http://business.lesechos.fr/directions-generales/numerique/0202861228898-orange-bon-eleve-sur-les-reseaux-sociaux-7719.php #telemarketing #indieweb
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aaronpk but they also had an RSS feed they'd update
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barnabywalters and people pipe that into their blogs
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aaronpk so I used that to pipe search results into IRC in a few channels
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aaronpk example: http://www.google.com/alerts/feeds/08478734330167329138/10130567543491574804
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aaronpk and http://www.google.com/alerts/feeds/08478734330167329138/2164952690261605784
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aaronpk !tell tantek check this out -- google is killing off RSS delivery of google alerts... a final step in deprecating RSS, and taking out a chunk of the web in the process https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Google+Alerts+no+longer+supports+RSS+delivery%22
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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barnabywalters I’m all for downplaying RSS, but that’s downright disrespectful
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aaronpk yea, i dont even know if there was any notice given
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barnabywalters they could quite easily have just given email notice and turned the service off, instead of sending a dummy message out
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aaronpk yea, you had to have a google account to set up an alert
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bret What is the replacement?
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bret also, aaronpk, don't see anything about the authneticator when trying to log into indieauth. just a heads up nothing urgent
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bret Has anyone tried out the new firefox mobile?
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Loqi tantek: aaronpk left you a message 34 minutes ago: check this out -- google is killing off RSS delivery of google alerts... a final step in deprecating RSS, and taking out a chunk of the web in the process https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Google+Alerts+no+longer+supports+RSS+delivery%22
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@silverton @aaronp not to mention killing XMPP in Hangouts. #indieweb more vital than ever.
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tantek aaronpk wow
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tantek all of this points to another opportunity to rebuild Technorati
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tantek I think julien51 is best positioned to do it - since he has so many folks sending stuff to superfeedr
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tantek perhaps something for the business models page
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@xtof_fr @egadenne Peux-tu essayer cette semaine une connexion sur site avec ton email ? Le feedback #persona aidera #indieweb. Belle soirée.
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aaronpk bret: log in at indieauth.com and then you'll see it
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tantek so we have POSSE and PESOS...
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tantek what do we call it when you cross-syndicate from silo to silo, in an attempt to aggregate?
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tantek e.g. send everything to FB/Twitter/Tumblr
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tantek Publish Elsewhere Syndicate Everything To A Silo?
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tantek Pesetas?
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aaronpk hahahaha
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aaronpk well done sir
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tantek :D
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tantek I'm going to start PESETAS everything to Tumblr that I haven't moved to my own site yet
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tantek you know, now that Tumblr is owned by Yahoo, what could possibly go wrong?
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aaronpk heh
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aaronpk like as a backup?
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tantek yeah
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tantek cheap lazy public backup
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aaronpk I currently do that with foursquare -> google calendar
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tantek oh and Tumblr still supports RSS
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tantek so potentially I *could* use Tumblr as a PESOS aggregator
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tantek if I then import that RSS to my own site
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tantek no one watches my Tumblr anyway
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aaronpk how would you get everything into tumblr? ifttt?
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@AndrewKorf @theinferno congrats on the “acquisition” look forward to seeing where you head with @bebo #open #indieweb #federated ?
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aaronpk !! http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57591849-93/bebo-founder-buys-back-social-network-for-$1m/
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tantek aaronpk - most sites now have an option to "also post to Tumblr"
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tantek e.g. Instagram, Vine, Thisismyjam etc.
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aaronpk ouch! AOL acquired Bebo for $850 million in 2008, then sold Bebo to CCP for $10 million in 2010, now the founder is buying it back for $1 million
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aaronpk tantek: ah! at the time of creation
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tantek aaronpk - right - real-time-like even
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aaronpk yea it annoys me that instagram can't publish videos to flickr
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aaronpk you can run your tumblr account from a subdomain of tantek.com or ttk.me so you own the URLs too
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tantek pesetas.tantek.com :P
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aaronpk haha
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aaronpk i like this idea
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aaronpk huh.. might as well renew the SSL cert for indieauth.com for 5 years. will end up saving me a hassle every year and it seems to be working out quite well
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tantek now I just need to update my Tumblr theme to support h-entry h-card :D
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aaronpk OH that's interesting
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aaronpk doesn't that make it a viable way to host an indieweb site then?
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tantek I think you see where I'm going with this
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tantek I just need to take / publish my notes
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tantek and it might just empower a bunch more people to take more indieweb steps
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tantek even if it is PESOS like from a hosted content perspective
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aaronpk but with your own domain pointing to tumblr, it's actually more like treaing tumblr as a hosting company than a silo social network
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tantek yes - it can be
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tantek if you're not just posting stuff to it from other silos
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aaronpk right
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tantek which is Tumblr's very nature
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tantek it's by design a syndication destination
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tantek a place where you tumble stuff into
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tantek like linkblogging++
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aaronpk and if I set up pingback.me to support sending out webmentions automatically by watching a feed, we could enable that theme with webmentions too
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tantek whoa
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aaronpk the "feed" of course being the list of h-entry posts
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tantek so far Nike+, Foursquare don't share to Tumblr. I imagine Yahoo will lobby for that to change however.
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aaronpk tumblr has a post-via-email thing tho right?
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aaronpk so that would help bridge a couple more services in the mean time
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tantek I think tumblr has a post via-any-comm-channel thing
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tantek like IM
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aaronpk lol they still have posting by IM?
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aaronpk I used to do that on my site. wrote a little AIM bot I could send stuff to.
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tantek huh, I think we have a few more silos to document: http://www.conversationprism.com/
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aaronpk whoa
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aaronpk https://conversationprism.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/ConvoPrismLarge.jpg
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tantek hahaha the Events slice has "Upcoming"
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aaronpk aww
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tantek makes me wonder how many of these sites are dead
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aaronpk and not facebook
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tantek oh and is that Google Reader I see in the Bookmarks slice?
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tantek that's so yesterday.
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aaronpk lol
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aaronpk wow I didn't realize you could make a completely custom tumblr theme http://www.tumblr.com/docs/en/custom_themes
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aaronpk i mean I kind of knew, but never really looked at it before
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tantek and they're missing thisismyjam.com from the Music slice
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tantek aaronpk - yeah my theme is pretty custom right now
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tantek it's got hentry (old school hAtom) because I haven't touched it in years
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tantek.com created /tumblr (+20) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Tumblr (+174) "add How to and POSSE with memory and question" (view diff)
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tantek anybody here POSSEing to Tumblr? How are you doing it? http://indiewebcamp.com/Tumblr#POSSE_to_Tumblr
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aaronpk LOL
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aaronpk "asking [Facebook] to teach it will lead either to collaboration or story worthy dissent
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aaronpk either of which will aid in the move to create the new standard." http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fedsocweb/2013Jul/0013.html
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sandeepshetty every time I see a reference to the acct URI scheme I feel :(
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@t that thing where you Publish Elsewhere &amp
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Loqi Syndicate Everything To A Silo (like Tumblr): #PESETAS #indieweb #ownyourdata (ttk.me t4Qn2)
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@shawnokeefe RT @t: that thing where you Publish Elsewhere &amp
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Loqi Syndicate Everything To A Silo (like Tumblr): #PESETAS #indieweb #ownyourdata (ttk.me t4Qn2)
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tantek sandeepshetty - yeah - it's a hack
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tantek aaronpk - hahaha - that's laughable. more humor from the W3C FSW list I see
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@MGZALLP RT @xtof_fr: #Orange #1 sur les #silos sociaux. Un moyen de contourner les centres d'appels. http://business.lesechos.fr/directions-generales/numerique/0202861228898-orange-bon-eleve-sur-les-reseaux-sociaux-7719.php #telemarketing #indieweb
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tantek I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this (or both) http://www.w3.org/2013/socialweb/
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aaronpk heh, oh yea and the invitation on the list http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fedsocweb/2013Jun/0200.html
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tantek ok, note to #indiewebcamp community, let us: create and ship all the protocols *before* 2013-08-07
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tantek show up and demo
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tantek and be like ok, we're done, when are the rest of you going to get on board?
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tantek and heck it's in SF
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aaronpk i could probably even go down for it
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tantek indiewebcampers Shane Caraveo (class of 2012), Julien (class of 2012), Kevin Marks (2011 & 2013), and Evan (2012) are on the Program Committee
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aaronpk oh that's a pretty good indiewebcamp contingent right there
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tantek aaronpk, we should at least get you, benwerd, and myself showing up and demoing
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tantek OH HAI, WE MADED YOU A FEDERATED PROTOCOL BUT WE SHIPPED IT
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aaronpk LOL!
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aaronpk "but"
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aaronpk so... "you do need to submit either a Position Paper by 1 July 2013 if you wish to present"
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tantek aaronpk, it's "but" because no one at W3C workshops like this demos stuff that's actually real / shipping. it's all concept / white paper / handwaving
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aaronpk can my position paper be "hey look it works"?
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tantek ok folks, we have our deadline
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tantek summer of indieweb
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tantek aaronpk, we can merely submit a "statement of interest"
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tantek oh I guess to demo we need to submit a position paper: http://www.w3.org/2013/socialweb/participate.html
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tantek.com edited /Tumblr (+1072) "How to Add microformats support, start with some h-entry tips" (view diff)
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tantek and check it: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftantek.tumblr.com%2F
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tantek first attempt. will iterate.
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aaronpk whoa awesome
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barnabywalters tantek: nice
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barnabywalters RE that W3C social thing — by opensocial, they mean the thing at opensocial.org, right?
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tantek yeah I think so
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barnabywalters I tried to figure out what it was but there were so many redirects, leading to a broken page :/
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tantek hah
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barnabywalters google -> opensocial.org -> “documentation” -> wiki -> broken page
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sandeepshetty whoa! http://rawgithub.com/
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melvster tantek: that socail web thing is harry halpin ... he used to be chair of the social web incubator, then he went off for a few years doing web crypto, now he's coming back into social stuff
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tantek melvster, yeah, I know Harry - we had a heart to heart at the Web Identity Workshop a few years ago at Mozilla
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tantek he knows my #indiewebcamp and selfdogfood biases
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melvster tantek: i met him last year at tpac (where I also met you :))
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melvster i think we made a mistake 2-3 years ago
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melvster we bet the house on OStatus
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melvster and while it did well, it didnt set the world on fire
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melvster and had a few technical issues
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melvster i think during that time ostatus has been in decline, e.g. status.net closing, and diaspora losing all their founders ... at the same time linked data is starting to grow
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melvster the problem with ostatus
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melvster which was originally called openmicroblogging
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melvster was that it was originally designed for micro blogs
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melvster then tried to scale to lots of different use cases
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melvster that type of scaling is hard
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melvster so now we live in a fragmented world
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melvster and it's really difficult to put the pieces together
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melvster the indieweb approach is good in that it's constantly dogfooding, imho
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tantek melvster - nah, the problem with ostatus is that most of it was too hard
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tantek = very few implementations that barely interoperated
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melvster tantek: that too
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tantek that was the *primary* problem
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tantek always is
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tantek complexity, difficulty
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melvster the SWAT0 test was too advanced
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tantek melvster - yeah, I'll take some blame for that
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melvster lol
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melvster ambitious i should say :)
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tantek more than just too advanced, it was insufficiently incremental
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melvster yes
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melvster exactly
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melvster i always tell people to get things such as friending and messaging working first, because you'll find that in itself is a challenge, and throws up many issues
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melvster basic building blocks of functionality
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sandeepshetty tantek: why is authorship part of iwc wiki & not the uf wiki?
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barnabywalters friending and messaging? hm, assuming you mean private messaging, I don’t think any indieweb creator so far has prioritised those two building blocks
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tantek too hard to predictably approach in baby stesp
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tantek s/stesp/steps
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Loqi tantek meant to say: too hard to predictably approach in baby steps
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tantek Evan really blazed a lot of trails there
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tantek it was the first real semi-practical attempt at coming up with a social stack
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tantek and frankly, he *did* selfdogfood it and shipped it
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tantek it's just that he's too smart for the rest of us ;)
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tantek melvster, you totally get the indieweb approach: constant iterative selfdogfooding
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tantek like very old school IETF
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tantek (not current email-list bike-shedding armchair-architect IETF)
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tantek melvster - I disagree re: "things such as friending and messaging working first"
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tantek note that we've gotten TONS done in indieweb without figuring out friending
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tantek nor messaging
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tantek basic building blocks of functionality for WHOM?
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tantek no one that selfdogfoods has bothered with those
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tantek (except for a minor indieweb messaging brainstorm early on in 2011)
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tantek sandeepshetty - because this is the community that cares more specifically about authorship and is actively figuring it out with live deployments
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aaronpk barnabywalters: there's the IndieWeb Messgaging thing i built a couple years ago, bnvk implemented it too
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melvster tantek: "such as" ... i like friending because I think it's social ... perhaps you do that with a blogroll
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tantek authorship builds on existing microformats, it doesn't introduce any new microformats
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tantek melvster - what do you do with friending on your own site?
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barnabywalters aaronpk: are either of those implementations still working, are you actively using them, did you prioritise that over identity and publishing?
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barnabywalters I’m guessing yes, no, no
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tantek melvster - the evidence so far is that EVERYONE who starts their own site/project here in the indiewebcamp community has done nearly ZERO about friending
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melvster tantek: i list all my friends on my indieweb home page
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tantek so the data demonstrates quite well that "friending" is not one of the "first things"
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aaronpk barnabywalters: correct. :) yes, no, no
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tantek also blogrolls have died too as a UI construct
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tantek nearly no one has them
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melvster ah ok
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tantek no new blogging software bothers to list them
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tantek thinks he should write up a few more misconceptions on the indiewebcamp wiki
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tantek eventually we'll have to figure out some form of "friending" when we get to things like private / limited access posts
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tantek but it's not been a priority for those of us who selfdogfood
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melvster tantek: I just think for a good social experience, having friends is important
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tantek in stark contrast to all the academics that just love to wank about privacy and social and crap
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tantek melvster WHY?
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tantek without starting to build/deploy a social experience on your own site, I claim you have no basis for such an assertion of "importance"
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melvster tantek: because it's a metaphor that most people are used to, you have a feed and you see what your friends are doing, you can browser friends, you can add and remove contacts, you can see friends of friends etc.
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barnabywalters AFAIK the closest anyone here’s come to anything resembling “friending” is http://waterpigs.co.uk/contacts, which is one of the lowest priority parts of my site (and it shows)
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barnabywalters oh would you look at that, it’s actually broken
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tantek thanks barnabywalters for proving my point
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tantek melvster - you're talking purely theoretically
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barnabywalters is not sure he should be happy his point is proven or sad his site is broken ;)
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tantek we call that hand waving
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melvster :)
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tantek the empirical/anecdotal data shows (with actual people working on / deploying) that none of that is a priority
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tantek so you may want to recheck your metaphor methodology ;)
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melvster tantek: I can click on my homepage then browse my social graph extending to a wider circle of millions of profiles ... simply through mouse clicking ... would you consider that hand waving or deployment?
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tantek looks for melvster's home page
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melvster try : http://melvincarvalho.com/
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tantek goes to http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC-people
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tantek clicks on melvster
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tantek gets a create new wiki page UI
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tantek :P
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melvster hmm
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melvster one sec
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tantek hey - I "followed my nose" as the semweb people are fond of saying
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tantek ;)
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melvster maybe i did the markup wrong
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melvster one sec
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sandeepshetty if following = friending then it's what I'm working on (reader)
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tantek sandeepshetty - that's because you're one of the most advanced people here ;)
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sandeepshetty is wondering if that was a compliment?
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tantek um, YES. :)
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sandeepshetty :)
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tantek.com created /User:Melvincarvalho.com (+82) "stub with an h-card" (view diff)
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tantek hey barnabywalters nice going with the rel parsing!!
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tantek in php-mf2
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tantek melvster - here you go, I maded you an h-card: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2FUser%3AMelvincarvalho.com :)
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barnabywalters tantek: thanks for writing a spec which was super easy to implement :)
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melvster oh thanks ... in the page i have
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melvster * {{irc user|melvincarvalho.com|melvster|GMT}}
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melvster ah ha ... thanks!
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melvster so you can see on my homepage I have a list of friends
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melvster actually I was just about to add one
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melvster if your browser doesnt automatically show you a view in linked data click on the link saying 'view this page as linked data'
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melvster then you'll see a clickable list of all my friends
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melvster then you can click on say
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melvster henry story
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melvster http://graphite.ecs.soton.ac.uk/browser/?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fbblfish.net%2Fpeople%2Fhenry%2Fcard%23me#http://bblfish.net/people/henry/card#me
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melvster and you'll get links to all his friends
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barnabywalters melvster: wait, first you say that friending “is a challenge, and throws up many issues”, then you demonstrate the contrary, that all it requires is some well-marked-up hyperlinks? I’m not sure I understand what point you’re trying to make
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melvster actually I think the whole cloud extends several million
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melvster barnabywalters: well marked up hyperlinks is a challenge in itself!
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melvster you'd be amazed how many people dont even do that
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tantek.com edited /blogroll (+454) "add melvster's blogroll to list of examples, barnabywalters to a "previously" subsection (until he fixes it ;)" (view diff)
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melvster im actually working on a browser extension that will just pull everything in to the browser without the ugly interface
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barnabywalters tantek: I’m working on it ;)
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tantek melvster - in terms of marking up blogrolls of friends etc., XFN solved that problem simply with HTML 10 years ago ;)
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tantek melvster - it's telling how few of those on your blog roll actually have their own site
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melvster tantek: sure both xfn and foaf work for this use case, I selected foaf for my homepage ... in 2004 foaf was going to take off but then there was a huge pain integrating it to plaxo and the buzz died down, it's still a fairly solid name space tho
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tantek wouldn't mind seeing a resurgence of blogrolls but isn't holding his breath.
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tantek hah - there's no such thing as a "solid" namespace. I mean, maybe "solid" as in it gets in your way
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tantek http://microformats.org/wiki/namespaces-considered-harmful
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melvster i see both sides of the argument
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aaronpk I don't think "friending" as a feature of its own is useful
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melvster certainly centralized namespaces get you up and running faster, but decentralization is also good for scalability
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barnabywalters WOAH indieauth is fast now — great work aaronpk!
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sandeepshetty rawgithub.com is awesome :) https://rawgithub.com/sandeepshetty/authorship-test-cases/master/h-entry_with_p-author.html
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aaronpk barnabywalters: YEAH thanks!
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tantek scalability of divergence maybe - which is contrary / anathema to standardization and communication
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /blogroll (+8) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ my example is working and well marked-up" (view diff)
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melvster tantek: all standards have elements of decentralization and elements of centralization ... different people favour different approaches
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melvster i personally lean towards decentralization, because I like scalability, but it can sometimes come at the cost of rapid development
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melvster always tradeoffs there are
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aaronpk If you look at the purpose of "friending" people on other networks, it's always in the context of something else
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tantek melvster, it's ok the "decentralized extensibility" crowd can continue banging heads into various walls over time
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aaronpk you friend someone on facebook to see their status updates in your feed, or to be able to see private photos, etc
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tantek whether it's called XML, RDF, RDFa, linked data, etc.
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tantek eventually the people that want to ship and have stuff interoperate sustainably over time switch to HTML+microformats
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tantek namespaces are an anathema to interop
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tantek though they're probably ok for experiments
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aaronpk so most likely the first thing that looks like "friending" on my site will be me subscribing to peoples' feeds, or adding people to a whitelist to see my private content
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aaronpk is catching up on old discussions, sorry
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tantek XML makes more sense when it's thought of as eXperiment Markup Language
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barnabywalters hah
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tantek aaronpk - your discussion is more productive, unlike namespaces or meta-namespaces
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tantek once in a while a believer pops up
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tantek ;)
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melvster tantek: it really depends on what use cases you are trying to solve, if you are happy with a central registry of terms and that does everything you need, that's fine, but if you want to create features that may not have previously been anticipated, having your own terms can be useful ... one driver for me is payments, and i need my own terms for that, because they are not part of the registry, and probably never will be
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melvster at the same time I can use all the great features of indieweb
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melvster but then run payments through my network for those that have that functionality
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melvster im not satisfied with having to use high friction third parties for payments, for me the have to be low friction and instant peer to peer, so that new systems of incentives can be created on the web
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melvster paying someone should be as simple as a hand gesture captured by your leap motion device and sent to someone's indie web identity ... but all too often it's such high fatigue that people dont bother
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melvster it's things like that where namespaces become useful
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melvster but i agree it would be nice to reuse as much as possible
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /blogroll (+921) "added brainstorming section with overdue braindump" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /blogroll (-19) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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tantek melvster - I think you just repeated my point about experiments / experimentation.
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tantek re: payments that you want to innovate with
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melvster yes
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tantek "need my own terms for that" = good reason to do an experiment
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melvster the web is shaped via incentives
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tantek but not standards
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tantek even IETF dropped the whole x-* thing
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melvster well you can have a hyperlink in a link relation anyway
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tantek aaronpk - agreed about following others' content, or providing permissions to read (and maybe edit) some content.
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tantek melvster - yeah, at least they're not subject to the namespace prefix brittleness problem
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aaronpk yea, whatever it is, it's not going to look like "friending" and all of a sudden we'll realize we built it
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tantek aaronpk - there's something about the UI model of reciprocal friending that FB has popularized that we *may* want to look at at some point
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tantek just given the fact that FB has taught so many people to use / think in terms of that model
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melvster tantek, aaronpk: so perhaps friending is not an important use case at this time in indie web, but it's one i think ive already solved (at least from a read only browsable perspective) and it's one that's perhaps more important in the wider context of the federated social web
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aaronpk yes, sure the UI may be similar, but we're not going to get there by all of a sudden everyone wanting to "friend" each other on the indieweb
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melvster we dont want all our friends to be trapped in a centralized walled garden
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tantek melvster, friending is far more than just a public blogroll
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aaronpk it's going to be beacuse you want to do X, where X is seeing private content, etc etc
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sandeepshetty tantek: every time it says rel-author or h-card it means top level rel-author & h-card right? or do I need tests cases where they are children (rel-author on sandeep.io is now inside h-feed!)
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tantek that's such a degenerate (in the maths sense) example of the problem it's not even worth mentioning
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tantek sandeepshetty - rel values are always page level
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barnabywalters sandeepshetty: rels are page scoped, there are only top-level rel-authors :)
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tantek thank you barnaby :)
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barnabywalters can’t tell is that was sarcastic or not :)
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melvster sandeepshetty: I think the proposed acct: URI scheme is mainly syntactic sugar, we'll have to wait and see if it catches on, im not going to rush to implement it until I see good adoption or have a good reason ...
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sandeepshetty right sorry my bad. the question still stands for h-card though
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tantek barnabywalters not sarcastic. :)
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melvster lol
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sandeepshetty melvster: it's designed by silo ppl for silo accounts
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tantek melvster I think you mean syntactic vinnegar
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barnabywalters accnt: is syntatic *sugar*?!
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melvster acct: not accnt:
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tantek sandeepshetty please restate the question about h-card
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melvster tho many people actually make that typo
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sandeepshetty tantek: thinking I'll need tests for rel-author pointing to a page where h-card is inside an h-feed. so the authorship algo should qualify which h-card (top-level+ inside h-feed)
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tantek is lolling at the Bebo story
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barnabywalters sandeepshetty: ftr, mf-cleaner::getAuthor flattens page h-cards and walks through them
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melvster sandeepshetty: that the acct scheme was invented by people that build silos is sort of a coincidence ... it because they wanted to query data where email was the object, and their technology meant they had to provide a subject, the choice was between mailto: and acct: and acct seems to be winning
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tantek silo invented tech -> meh
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tantek I think if you ignore silo invented tech long enough it just ends up dying of its own accord
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tantek kind of like all hypertext systems before HTML
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tantek (snap)
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sandeepshetty barnabywalters: by flattens do you mean pulls out all h-card at any depth?
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barnabywalters sandeepshetty: yep, including properties, so h-feed.author would still pop up in the flattened lsit
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barnabywalters *list
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sandeepshetty what about h-cards of reply-context?
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tantek is now PESETASing to Tumblr
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barnabywalters sandeepshetty: they’re included but should be ignored as their domains aren’t the same as the root domain. actually I hope to get rid of that particular bit of code, just thought it was worth mentioning
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sandeepshetty melvster: the *real* choice should have been just a URL
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barnabywalters argh Numbers doesn’t do HTML export — any recommendations for a good data table authoring application, mac/web, with HTML export?
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sandeepshetty I mean an http url
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aaronpk google docs?
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melvster sandeepshetty: sure, i suggested 18 months ago that the solution to webfiger was as simple as : user@host -> http://host/@/user ... or something like that ...
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melvster design by committee takes time :)
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melvster but maybe not 5 years!
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tantek.com created /friending (+618) "stub" (view diff)
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sandeepshetty what pisses me of even more is that all the silo ppl asking for it... will not end up using it.
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sandeepshetty like we saw with activitystreams as well
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sandeepshetty but they'll just end up complicating stuff
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barnabywalters hm, turns out you can just copy/paste numbers charts into textedit and save as HTML. that’s tolerable
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sandeepshetty it's telling that the webfinger spec has hypothetical examples of "possibilities" "
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melvster sandeepshetty: what will be real useful is going to be to discover meta data from an email address, e.g. avatar, blog, homepage, name etc. ... if you have to jump through a few hoops to get it, i guess that's ok, it's useful information ... but webfinger probably isnt robust enough to be the foundation of a web scale identity or discover system, time will tell ... it's a good tool for discovery, if it ever ships ...
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tantek sandeepshetty - your analysis is correct. thus, just ignore the silo people as they won't actually ship / interoperate anything anyway.
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tantek they might as well just be making a bunch of noise on a mailing list. oh wait.
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aaronpk oh snap
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melvster lol
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tantek the only webfinger relation that matters is email address -> home page. everything else (avatar, blog, homepage, name) is already well defined / implemented / support as hCard/h-card on your home page.
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tantek oh and rel-me for all those "other" profiles for those that spray & pray their content across silos
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tantek is still guilty of some of that, hence the PESETASing to Tumblr.
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sandeepshetty it's sad that they didn't just use web linking and went the known path way
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tantek sandeepshetty - it's a crowd that has a fetish for email, kind of like people in the 1980s had a fetish for fax machines.
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tantek it'll pass in 20 years.
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melvster sandeepshetty: well-known is OK ... it saves one round trip, and that can be important to the enterprise ...
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sandeepshetty no I meant get the domain from the email address and do a head on it to get a link rel
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tantek enterprise is fairly ignorable. once the open web adopts something the enterprise eventually begrudgingly adopts it too.
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tantek no need to actually include enterprise in any early (any at all?) standards discussions.
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melvster tantek: you need 3+ enterprises to start a standard at the W3C iirc
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tantek though if you can honeypot them into their own standards committees, it can help reduce the amount of noise/distraction they cause elsewhere. e.g. WS-Deathstar
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tantek melvster LOL!!!
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melvster i mean to charter a working group
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tantek and here I thought that was at OASIS.
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tantek do new working groups actually work any more?
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tantek actually has to try to help fix that problem, now that he's on the W3C AB.
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sandeepshetty tantek: think you missed my question about qualifying h-card?
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tantek sandeepshetty - sorry, will scroll
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melvster well id say the first decade of the web was quite grass roots, but now the enterprise is much more dominant, and we seem to be seeing more centralization as a result, but I could be completely misreading the situation ... it seems very few people now promote the properties that made the web take off such as decentralization and freedom to publish
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sandeepshetty search for "qualify"
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sandeepshetty tantek: love the idea of using tumblr. thanks to it's blogging roots is pretty open.
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sandeepshetty enterprise = maximize stakeholder profits != maximize benefits for everyone.
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melvster yes