#indiewebcamp 2013-07-02

2013-07-02 UTC
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tantek.com edited /WebFinger (+374) "minimal usefulness - some quotes from IRC" (view diff)
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sandeepshetty so I'm guessing the 3+ enterprises constraint is there so that "standards" are not hijacked/biased by any one of them
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melvster sandeepshetty: most of the w3c membership are companies ... to have a charter you need at lest a *few* of the 600+ companies to show interest, or you'd just get tons of random stuff moved to working groups which normally takes up staff time
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melvster in a community group you can do whatever you want
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melvster if you make a decent spec, you are invited to write a charter and see if anyone is interested
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melvster it's normally possible to get 1 or 2 universities and a couple of friendly companies to sponsor something half way decent
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melvster but most standards bodies have a bias towards deployment ... and big companies have an advantage for deployment because they tend to have bigger budgets
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melvster until this year that is
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melvster now open source projects are starting to be able to write their own currencies thanks to projects such as bitcoin, this will give the fire power to get more things deployed
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melvster once we get crypto in the browser and Linked Data cloud storage we may not need much more in terms of standards at all
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melvster and both of those will happen in 2014
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tantek melvster, I for one am not holding my breath for yet another renamed RDFvana.
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sandeepshetty linked data cloud storage?
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tantek.com edited /antipatterns (+1819) "design for silos or enterprise and WS-Deathstar (may need its own page)" (view diff)
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melvster sandeepshetty: the so-called Linked Data Platform ... it allows you to GET PUT DELETE files and directories to the cloud
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tantek WebDAV 2.0?
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tantek ;)
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melvster tankek: yes maybe webdav lite :)
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tantek and for today's sense of silo/enterprise zen, I give you: http://indiewebcamp.com/antipatterns#WS-Deathstar
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tantek as part of http://indiewebcamp.com/antipatterns#design_for_silos_or_enterprise
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barnabywalters ws-* passed me by, is it worth looking into to try to learn from past mistakes?
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tantek barnabywalters - just enough to laugh at
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tantek nothing to learn from there
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barnabywalters or just to get the jokes?
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barnabywalters okay
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tantek other than don't get involved in a standards war in enterprise
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tantek akin to land war in asia etc.
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sandeepshetty has done a bit of corba & soap in a past life
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tantek sandeepshetty - sorry to hear about that.
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tantek did SOM, DSOM/CORBA, even DCOM in past live(s).
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tantek melvster - re: LDCloud/WebDAV 2.0: How quaint. it's ok, we've got simple HTTP CRUD working via webmention + microformats on the federated indieweb. Should have a dozen or so interop implementations by the time that workshop happens.
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melvster tantek: it's a working group ... they have 60+ people on it and 30 or so firms, including ibm oracle apache etc. it should go REC next year
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melvster not a 'workshop'
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tantek the FSW Workshop
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tantek I'm mixing metameetings/groups here.
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tantek Oh yay more enterprise designed tech!
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Loqi woot
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aaronpk loqi is easily excited
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melvster tantek: yeah that's great we had a few implementations of semantic pingback working earlier this year too, which I think was one of the partial inspirations for webmention ...
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tantek melvster - it was just plain "pingback" that was the inspiration AFAIK. sandeepshetty can clarify.
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tantek just without the unnecessary (as it were) XML-RPC
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tantek pingback with less, not more
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tantek in general it seems to be a good pattern to - drop all the XML
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aaronpk yea, I was saying for a long time that we should just use pingback and we could do all this cool comment stuff, and then started implementing it (which is where pingback.me came from), and finally sandeepshetty came along and simplified it to get rid of all the unnecessary xmlrpc crap
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tantek ahem, Loqi
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aaronpk drop all the XMLs!
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aaronpk gives loqi an XML
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melvster yeah i think xml is dying
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Loqi laughs at the XML
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tantek melvster I'd be more interested in HTML cloud storage. oh wait that's called The Web. ;)
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melvster tantek: yes exactly ... 'cloud' was just a rebranding of technology we had for years
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tantek melvster, it's quaint how people keep trying to reinvent HTML but in more complex and enterprisey ways so they can charge lots of consulting $ to "help" other companies deploy them and such.
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melvster another one is 'big data'
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tantek anything "big *" is named such so that the consultants for it can charge "big $" for it.
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sandeepshetty I did look at semantic pingback and lots of other stuff, but it was more to simplify pingback (and avoid having to do xmlrpc) than anything else.
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melvster incentive model run amok
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melvster we need to realign incentives with value creation
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aaronpk sandeepshetty: lol yea my answer to avoiding xmlrpc was to build pingback.me so I only ever had to write that code once
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tantek melvster - you're in the right place for that right here in #indiewebcamp
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aaronpk making webmention was a better idea :)
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tantek "realign incentives with value creation" = selfdogfood or go home
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tantek lost sandeepshetty's h-card question again
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tantek hey melvster, quit it with all non-selfdogfood noise/discussions - I can only document so many anti-patterns so quickly. :P
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sandeepshetty aaronpk: I suffer from NIH (obligatory mention of xkcd 927)
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tantek <3 927
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melvster tantek: i tend to implement the things i discuss, for example, my distributed likes system is modelled as payments hence incentives, you do create value, and you get credit ... see http://graphite.ecs.soton.ac.uk/browser/?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fmelvincarvalho.com%2Flikes
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sandeepshetty_ tantek: re h-card http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-07-01/line/1372721679
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tantek so http://graphite.ecs.soton.ac.uk is a silo aggregator of likes?
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tantek prefers the distributed liking / aggregation model that sandeepshetty came up with.
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tantek (and deployed)
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melvster tantek: it's a human readable view of linked data ... I actually have a linked data browser extension, but I suspect most people dont
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sandeepshetty_ tantek: I think graphite is just linked data browser
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tantek mlevster - meh, not really interested in a duplicate view of data. HTML is good enough.
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melvster curl would give you the same data as text
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tantek JSON for API consumer convenience.
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sandeepshetty_ tantek, melvster: whats the state of rdfa in the LD world?
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melvster it's just skinning, html is fine yes
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sandeepshetty_ melvster: when you say linked data what are we talking about exactly?
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tantek sandeepshetty re: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-07-01/line/1372721679 - I think the algo already works for that.
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melvster sandeepshetty_: rdfa has two flavours rdfa and rdfa lite ... both in HTML and XHTML ... I think they are RECs now, if not very close to REC
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tantek is there a specific h-card inside an h-feed case you're worrieda bout?
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sandeepshetty_ tantek: on the homepage of sandeep.io, the h-card is now inside a h-feed (which is also a rel-author on post pages - same template)
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melvster sandeepshetty_: I mainly use RDFa so it's mainly just a case of putting the right "rels" in your documents, but some others like to use JSON LD and other turtle
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tantek sandeepshetty, note that the authorship algorithm doesn't say anything about "top level" - it works for whatever level the h-card is at inside the rel-author destination
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tantek so e.g. let's look at your home page
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tantek http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sandeep.io%2F
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melvster tantek: I also wrote a mini spec on how you can do payments over the web, hence trying to align incentives with value creation ... http://webcredits.org/ ... but I need to add in some of the good ideas from bitcoin and ripple ... lots of things to build!
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sandeepshetty_ melvster: ah so the blogrool stuff is just rels
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sandeepshetty_ *blogroll
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melvster yeah rels work well ... that's pretty much all linked data is
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melvster x is related to y
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tantek.com edited /authorship (+0) "numbered list items for easier referencing steps" (view diff)
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melvster x relation y <--- the so-called triple
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tantek sandeepshetty - so I can immediately see an h-card with url===uid===URL of the page so that makes sense to use per 3.1.1 of http://indiewebcamp.com/authorship#Determining
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melvster many triples make up what we call linked data, and x and y can be urls hence the 'linked'
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tantek should work fine
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melvster if you understand rel, you understand linked data
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tantek except it always takes more explanation to explain triples rather than property:value
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sandeepshetty_ tantek: post page http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http://www.sandeep.io/98
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melvster yes
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tantek so there's inevitably fewer people that can understand anything RDF/LD etc. = fewer authors, fewer developers, fewer libraries, etc.
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melvster explaining it is hard for some reason
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tantek melvster - it's unnecessarily complicated
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tantek we can get along fine without it
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melvster i think the language is confusing sometimes
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tantek it's more appealing to data architects than folks who want to ship features as quickly as possible
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sandeepshetty_ tantek: It will see the rel-author and then go to the home page and has to pick up the h-card ...
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tantek sandeepshetty right
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aaronpk melvster: re: http://www.w3.org/community/webpayments/wiki/Web_Credits how do you verify an IOU is legit?
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sandeepshetty_ tantek: so the client has to traverse all of the mf2 array and get all of the h-cards?
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tantek nah, just until it finds one that matches the condition in the algorithm
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melvster aaronpk: it not in the scope of that spec, or it would be pages long ... but there's a few ways, mainly using digital signatures
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tantek client can test them as it finds them
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tantek and stop when it's found one
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sandeepshetty_ tantek: depth-first?
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aaronpk melvster: odd...what is the point of the spec then?
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tantek sandeepshetty - yes that makes sense - per document order
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melvster aaronpk: it's a lego piece that can be put together into a greater mosaic ... there's other specs that document how you use digital signatures, and im dong one for proof of work, but you can even have a trusted relationship, say with a spouse of family member, in that case you might not need verification
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aaronpk huh, ok
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melvster modularity
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bret melvster: is webcredits different than payswarm?
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melvster bret: a bit like payswarm lite
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bret not that payswarm is much of anything yet'
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sandeepshetty_ tantek: something doesn't "feel" right (intuition) about the algo will get back to you when I have something concrete though.
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melvster bret: payswarm is pretty good ... they have a commercial implementation and are working closely with mozilla to get it into the browser ... i think it's pretty good
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bret something like it sounds like a good idea
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melvster but of course if you have something on your indie web page, you dont need to sign it
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melvster because that is definitive
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melvster you generally sign things to make them portable, same is true in the real world, when you sign a letter
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melvster so in this way I could not impose a signing strategy and keep the system modular
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melvster i dont believe in imposing any one auth system 'to rule them all' but rather, have building blocks that people can fit together for their use cases
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bret tantek: do you recommend any good reading on history of xml and/or why it failed?
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sandeepshetty_ tantek: one aspect (I asked barnabywalters about it earlier today) is that with reply-context and stuff like like counts, etc we have child h-cards to h-entry that shouldn't be considered
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melvster bret:
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melvster A good video on this from Douglas Crockford : http://inkdroid.org/journal/2012/04/30/lessons-of-json/
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bret thanks melvster, I'm new to a lot of webstuff still :p
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melvster one tiny error in his explanation and that is that JSON was not a complete subset of ECMAScript (and hence a standard) ... there are tiny differences, but only someone really pedantic would know that
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melvster to cut a long story short
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bret Does he talk about xml?
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melvster when you fetch json you automatically have it in a data structure ... with XML you have to fetch it and THEN query it ... yes watch the vid
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bret I'm going to ride home then watch it
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bret packing up to leave
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melvster have fun
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melvster essentially the rise of javascript came at the expense of xml
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bret funny how that works
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bret ok back in 20 mins
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tantek bret - re: XML fail - Tim Bray has some good blog posts
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tantek melvster, aaronpk, re: "sign things to make them portable" - I prefer camlistore for this.
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tantek So much better/simpler than *all* of the W3C stuff on the topic.
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tantek It's kind of ridiculous.
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tantek When we get around to all the portable/privacy type stuff, I'm fairly certain we'll just end up using camlistore (or something similar)
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tantek melvster - I don't buy the building block excuse you gave for that spec. Something has to be minimally useful on its own to be a building block.
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tantek if not, it's not a building block, it's a part of something
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melvster tantek: IOUs between people are useful ... just think of bar tabs
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tantek melvster - I expect the system that aaronpk and co have at geoloqi is more practical
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tantek he gave a good talk / demo on it at OSBridge
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tantek of coffee as currency
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melvster webcredits can easily have coffee as a currency
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melvster it's currency agnostic
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tantek I have more faith/expectation in aaronpk figuring out how to distribute the working system he has deployed than in something from a spec-first perspective.
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tantek spec-first usually means too overgeneralized.
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melvster tantek: see also http://opentabs.net/
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tantek = more work than necessary
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tantek I'll let aaronpk take a look and see if any of those merit attention;.
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tantek is not really looking at tipping/IOU systems yet.
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melvster im trying to get the w3c to accept bitcions :)
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melvster FSF already do
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melvster indieweb is the classic user base that can easily do payments
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melvster well i mean people that run their own websites
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melvster because if you have access to your web space, you dont need fancy signing etc.
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melvster you can just beam cash website to website
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tantek maybe
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melvster everyone else needs a third party
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tantek we'll see when it gets brainstormed/implemented
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melvster also you dont need to "tip" or "IOU" in an existing currency, you can create new currencies
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melvster i find traditional payments and tipping dull
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melvster it's much more interesting when individuals or projects create their own money systems ... that happend this year with ripple.com ... they are an open source project less than a year old, but their new currency, the XRP, is worth between 1 and 2 billion USD already ... not bad for a startup in its first year!
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melvster ditto bitcoin
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melvster 1 billion created from nothing
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melvster we will see more of these spring up
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melvster now that we understand how to do it
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tantek still remembers beanz
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melvster lol ... a long time ago
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melvster many have tried to implement virtual currency, including the original paypal
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sandeepshetty_ tantek: 3.1.3 shouldn't really be a child of 3.1 (http://indiewebcamp.com/authorship)
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melvster all failed until satoshi came along and showed how to do it
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tantek sandeepshetty good catch
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sandeepshetty_ tantek: became obvious as I was adding test cases: https://github.com/sandeepshetty/authorship-test-cases
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tantek sandeepshetty - well close, except that 3.1.3 *does* still check for rel=author
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tantek so let me restructure a bit
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sandeepshetty_ tantek: While your at it #1 is also not a rule... just something that can be included in 2 and renamed to 1
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tantek no these are steps
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tantek not rules
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sandeepshetty_ there's no test case for 1
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sandeepshetty_ test cases start at 2
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tantek yeah there is - verify that there's an h-entry :)
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sandeepshetty_ :)
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sandeepshetty_ if we say that explicitly.. it becomes a test case
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tantek.com edited /authorship (+76) "restructure step 3 a bit per feedback from sandeepshetty and iteration" (view diff)
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tantek sandeepshetty - ok added more explicit language to step 1
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sandeepshetty_ tantek: I'm a little confussed by 3.1.4
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bret thanks tantek, ill read some of his stuff too
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sandeepshetty_ client follows rel-author_link.. doesn't find u-url == u-uid = rel-author_link or u-url that is also rel-me so it now checks on the post page for an h-card that is (this is part that I'm not clear about)
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sandeepshetty_ tantek: sorry forgot to address that last msg to you
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@erikastotle RT @t: that thing where you Publish Elsewhere &amp
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Loqi Syndicate Everything To A Silo (like Tumblr): #PESETAS #indieweb #ownyourdata (ttk.me t4Qn2)
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sandeepshetty_ tantek: I think I understand now.. if there is rel-author on the post page, looks for a h-card on the page that also links to rel-author href?
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tantek yes
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tantek.com edited /authorship (+7) "update 3.1.4 detail for clarity per sandeepshetty feedback" (view diff)
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tantek better?
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sandeepshetty_ tantek: yep.. this test case should work: https://github.com/sandeepshetty/authorship-test-cases/blob/master/h-entry_with_rel-author_and_h-card_with_u-url_pointing_to_rel-author_href.html right?
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sandeepshetty_ aaronpk: any chance of fixing the redirect bug with indieauth (because of which I have to use www to login)?
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tantek alright I'm off to get evening meal - will check in again later
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www.sandeep.io edited /authorship (+212) "/* Determining */ Added link to test cases." (view diff)
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sandeepshetty_ !tell barnabywalters: Added the HTML files for testing out the Authorship Algorithm to github https://github.com/sandeepshetty/authorship-test-cases and linked to it on the wiki
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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sandeepshetty_ !tell barnabywalters: replace raw.github.com with rawgithub.com to server the pages with text/html
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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www.sandeep.io edited /authorship (+6) "/* Test cases */ made it obvious that it's the same algo." (view diff)
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www.sandeep.io edited /authorship (-1) "/* Test cases */ fixed typo." (view diff)
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@sandeepshetty Created HTML files for testing the #indieweb Authorship Algorithm... Discovered http://rawgithub.com in the process http://www.sandeep.io/101
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aaronpk melvster: I've lived inside an alternative currency system for 7 years, so naturally you can see why I'm interested in this and may have one or two opinions about the tech behind it ;)
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melvster aaronpk: 'lived inside'? :)
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melvster i use alt currencies quite often
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aaronpk literally :)
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melvster aaronpk: can you explain any more?
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melvster or any thoughts on building web currencies ...
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aaronpk i built and successfully used a system that we used in the group house i ran in college
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aaronpk there were about 5-9 people at a time using it
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melvster ahhh
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melvster nice!
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melvster im setting up my co working space with their own currency
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aaronpk over about 7 years, with about 20-25 people in total
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melvster great!
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melvster you could use something like webcredits then
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aaronpk well
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melvster or easiest just keep a central spreadsheet
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melvster in the beginning i just used pen and paper :)
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melvster but i like the digital form
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melvster ive been using my own currencies for a while too ... now id like to try and scale it a bit further
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aaronpk this kind of thing tends to not be as much a technology problem as it is a social one
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melvster sure
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melvster aaronpk: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webpayments/2013Jun/0009.html
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melvster you need liquidity
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aaronpk and theres also the usability side of course
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aaronpk the "coffee as currency" system tantek referenced is interesting. its somethijg that has actually stuck around a significant amount of time in our group
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melvster sure
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melvster my system is currency agnostic
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melvster anything can be a currency
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melvster aaronpk: I assume it's a simple shared ledger ... how do you keep track of things?
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aaronpk yea its a shared ledger
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melvster google docs? ... i assume you have an admin who is a trusted third party that prevents fraud ...
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aaronpk its actually a json file with a nice web interface and irc interface. but the implementation details aren't important ;)
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melvster cool ... is the web interface something you might share, or have any screen shots?
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aaronpk yea there are some on flickr... one sec
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aaronpk how do i paste lol
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melvster ctrl + v ?
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aaronpk im on an ipad
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aaronpk oh well, go to flickr.com/aaronpk and searh my photos for "coffee"
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aaronpk anyway, id ike to see a distributed web based currency
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aaronpk but in my experience, the only ones that have worked are based on a closed group of semi trusted people
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@xtof_fr ébauche armoire dotale de #mydatalabs pour recherche #mariage ou alliance sur #indieweb http://mydatalabs.com/Dot
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melvster lots of cups of coffee ... :)
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melvster aaronpk: have you heard of bitcoin?
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melvster that's a distributed currency
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aaronpk web-based :)
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melvster ah yes web credits can do that
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melvster json is a nice way to store things
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melvster because you can have a bunch of transactions in one file
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melvster but it's not trivial to translate that to a web page
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melvster there's 3 keys things
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melvster to identify the sender
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melvster the receiver
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melvster and the currency
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melvster of course everyone uses different strings for all of these 3
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aaronpk there are a number of ways to represent this technically
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melvster yes
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aaronpk i'm more curious in figuring out which methods are sustainable from the ux and social perspectives
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melvster you need liquidity
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aaronpk that is true for a system that exists outside a closed group of people
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melvster liquidity always helps even in a small group
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melvster without it, it's not very useful
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melvster with it, you build trust over time
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aaronpk as long as you trust that the currency will always be exchangable even within the system its fine
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melvster what web credits aims to do, is be able to link together lots of systems
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aaronpk maybe next year at indiewebcamp we can all self-dogfood alternate currency systems if we're forced into a situation of needing to lend small amounts of money to each other like to buy lunch/dinner/drinks during the event
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melvster yes we did that last year at unhosted conf
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aaronpk sweet
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aaronpk was there any documentation of how it turned out?
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@xtof_fr Fan #indieweb ch. job d'été en #Anjou - secteurs bâtiment ou #paperasse. Faire offre par DM merci. http://mydatalabs.com/Christophe_Ducamp
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melvster you can ask jan and michiel ... they were organizing it ... and they hang out on irc here often .... :)
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melvster actually michiel had a bunch of json files too
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aaronpk i wonder if something like indieweb messaging could be used as a delivery and acknowledgment system for the web currency
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aaronpk i should also probably re-spec indieweb messging using hashcash
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Loqi definitely
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aaronpk glad you agree, loqi
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aaronpk well i will be interested to follow this more, and im also curious when it will become an "itch" for me
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aaronpk heading to bed! goodight!
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melvster yes hashcash is good
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melvster you can use indieweb messaging for payments sure
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@xtof_fr Dur de quitter #flickr http://indiewebcamp.com/Flickr : ch. plugiciel pour exporter photos de Lightroom vers #trovebox ?
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melvster people are using bitmessage today
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bret did people here see ozten's indieweb commenting system? http://innercircle.aok.io/open_garden_any_good
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tantek whoa is that his domain?
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bret i dont know
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bret http://devdocs.io coo! with offline access
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tantek.com edited /POSSE (+14) "/* Related */ link to pesetas" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /PESOS (-11) "remove dup = heading" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /POSSE (-11) "remove dup = heading" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /PESETAS (+2552) "stub with definition, comparison, use-case, advantages, disadvantages, background, see also" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /syndication-models (+206) "add PESETAS" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Special:Log/move () "moved [[spofs]] to [[spof]] over redirect: singularize a definitive term" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /SPOF (+18) "r" (view diff)
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@t @erikastotle not at all! You own your domain, PESOS into it.
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tantek.com edited /PESETAS (+1) "/* Use Case */ ]" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /PESETAS (+516) "/* Use Case */ exception, if you're using Tumblr as your content host, then you're PESOSing, not PESETASing" (view diff)
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@t Google Reader is dead. The answer is not another SPOF, but integrated indie aggregation. Crazy? Join us: #indiewebcamp (ttk.me t4Qo1)
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@benwerd RT @t: Google Reader is dead. The answer is not another SPOF, but integrated indie aggregation. Crazy? Join us: #indiewebcamp (ttk.me t4Qo1)
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@fraying RT @t: Google Reader is dead. The answer is not another SPOF, but integrated indie aggregation. Crazy? Join us: #indiewebcamp (ttk.me t4Qo1)
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@kevinmarks RT @t: Google Reader is dead. The answer is not another SPOF, but integrated indie aggregation. Crazy? Join us: #indiewebcamp (ttk.me t4Qo1)
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@joshuajuran RT @t: Google Reader is dead. The answer is not another SPOF, but integrated indie aggregation. Crazy? Join us: #indiewebcamp (ttk.me t4Qo1)
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neuro` Good morning UGT
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bret hi neuro`
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@t As of 2013-182 I'm PESETASing my @flickr @instagram @path @thisismyjam posts all to @tumblr as a stopgap. #ownyourdata (ttk.me t4Qo2)
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tantek hello neuro` and bret
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bret ok now I know how to create and destroy dom elements
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bret I'm sad to say it, but I am really loving sublime text
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bret i wanted to avoid another proprietary text editor, but at least this one works everywhere
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bret and the fact its a full on git GUI
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bret :D
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neuro` Hi tantek and bret
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tommorris bret: Vim runs everywhere. ;)
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neuro` bret: did you try sublimetext3 beta?
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bret tommorris, tried vim
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bret its true, that does run even more places
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bret neuro` i did, but git gutter didnt work very well
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neuro` vim learning curve is too important
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bret im slowing learning vim
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bret I use it for my job
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neuro` When you really want to use it daily (which I do as a sysadmin)
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bret ST is a joy however
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tommorris I really need to install Ctrl-P and then uninstall TextMate ;)
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bret i love love love the ctl shift p menu in ST
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tommorris I love the window management side of Vim
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bret Textmate 2 is coming along, I really do love it for writing LaTeX
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tommorris tabs, split, vsplit etc.
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tommorris and I use Vim a huge amount when doing big wiki-editing tasks
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tommorris when I write stuff for Wikipedia and Wikinews, for all but the most trivial of edits, it's done in MacVim
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tommorris because I can move around the document at unparalleled speed
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tommorris and I hate mice ;)
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@t .@hirojin protocols are nice side-effects of simple selfdogfood implementations. join http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC for more. (ttk.me t4Qo3)
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bret i like sticking to the keyboard, but moving around in vim is painful still
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bret for me
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bret so many other things I would rather learn
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bret at the moment
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neuro` tommorris: I'm sitll in love with TM :)
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bret I like TM but I hate how its mac only
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bret cant use it everywhere
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bret its awsome that he GPL3d it
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neuro` Jesus, I really hate GPL, I wish it was MIT licensed.
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bret freeeedommmmm!! :p
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bret by forcing people to be moral
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bret XD
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bret yes mein fuhrer
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neuro` Mein fuhrer... I can walk!
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bret I respect GPLv3 though. It takes courage to assert your values over your work.
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tommorris I'm tempted to release ferocity under AGPL.
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tommorris that would require me to actually clean it up though ;)
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neuro` I'm releasing everything I do under either MIT or WTFPL
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bret thats your blogging engine right tommorris?
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tommorris yeah. well, hack engine ;)
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tommorris which reminds me, I actually need to formally deprecate some open source code I published a while back
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neuro` Except for my blog / photos which ar CC 2.0 BY-SA
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tommorris not CC 3?
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neuro` Didn't change it for a while, that's the reason :) But another thing to add on my TODO, which is close to 600 lines
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bret do we have a generaized name for webmention/pingbacks?
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tantek bret - just webmention is good enough
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tantek at this point we should treat "pingback" purely as legacy
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tantek and build everything on webmention because it's simpler
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tantek using pingback.me for compat only when needed
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bret i building off of pingback.me, which does webmentions too
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neuro` I'd go that way too, the word "pingback" has a too long story and spammy / tech debt (plus I don't think the term is acurrate regardin what Web mentions are) even though no one under 30 remember what pingbacks were.
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bret i guess its not dependant on that, but the model I am using is some kind of webmention hub style thing
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bret i guess thats a detail aaronpk would need to decide on
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bret but I do like the idea of having public hubs
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bret or hub software
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@julien51 RT @t: Google Reader is dead. The answer is not another SPOF, but integrated indie aggregation. Crazy? Join us: #indiewebcamp (ttk.me t4Qo1)
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tantek aaronpk - heads-up, I'm recommending IndieAuth as a replacement for OpenID in the #barcamp channel :)
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melvster what's barcamp?
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tommorris barcamp is awesome, that's what. ;)
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tommorris http://enwp.org/BarCamp
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neuro` aaronpk: too bad indiauth.com doesn't find rel="me" at http://t37.net even though it has one. Maybe a small parser issue?
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tommorris I really need to clean up the WP article on BarCamp
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tommorris and now I no longer organiser BarCamps, I don't have a COI :)
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tantek tommorris - I actually made an attempt at cleaning up a bunch of the BarCamp article using citations and such a while ago and most of my changes seemed to stick reasonably well. Though I haven't looked at the article in a few months.
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tommorris for some reason, my edits seem to stick around longer. may be because admins are whitelisted from the anti-vandalism tools like Huggle
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tantek that's cool.
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tantek one thing that I have no idea what the right way to fix is credit (as in listing and direct linking by name) for the BarCampFounders for creating BarCamp
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tommorris tantek: I'll dig out sources :)
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tommorris that reminds me, really must organise a web history editathon at some point
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tantek tommorris - this page: http://barcamp.org/w/page/400751/BarCampFounders
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bret what the shit are all of these #text items in my child nodes?
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bret anyone who knows js, mind visiting http://bret.io/2013/06/29/getting-started-with-bower/ then running `document.getElementsByClassName('breadcrumb')[0].childNodes`
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tantek and is quite old in archive.org as: http://web.archive.org/web/20060717042600/http://barcamp.org/BarCampFounders
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tommorris tantek: I could pinch the photo off Flickr and include it in the article ;)
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tantek tommorris if you're looking for a founding/creation day photo - there's these two:
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tantek http://www.flickr.com/photos/tantek/55758090/
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tantek http://www.flickr.com/photos/tantek/55758092/
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tantek the barcamp.org domain was registered by termie at that table at Ritual Roasters, and the wiki installed/created
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neuro` Wow, this brings us back in time. We did a Microformats session at the founding Barcamp Paris, June the 11th 2006.
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neuro` + with Chris
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tantek wow
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@xtof_fr Ch. #designer #créateur #carreleur ou maçon pour carreler ma #cuisine ? #indieweb
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neuro` After 1 year or so, Barcamps Paris turned into "I'm here to pitch you my cool innovative startup and do my personal branding" events. Or over specialized non conferences (like Xtof Barcamp Bank), which were awesome brainstorming sessions on the future of banks
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neuro` The way it turned to is one of the reasons why I'd like to start over with indie Web camp, which is much more focused on hacking and getting things done, and gives less room to "personal branling" (french joke with personal branding and "branlette" which is a word to define masturbation")
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tantek heh
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tantek yeah, neuro` we had similar problems with marketing/sales pitches in some US barcamps
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tantek we had to make announcements in the opening sessions asking for no such sessions
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erikmaarten "erikmaarten: re: "I figured I'd just write everything on my own, incrementally, because it's a nice feeling to build everything bottom-up" welcome to the club :)" - thanks tantek :)
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tantek that helped mostly
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tantek we also created an opportunity at BarCampBlock (2007, Palo Alto) for anyone who had a product or startup to pitch to do so at a sponsored happy hour after the first day.
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tantek by providing that opportunity, it got most of the sales/marketing folks to do their brief pitch on a projector while everyone else drank at the bar and enjoyed snacks.
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tantek rather than having sales/marketers use entire sessions
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tantek and they all got bigger audiences too - so everyone was happy
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tantek I don't know if we ever documented that technique
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neuro` I wish you had, this would have avoided barcamps to die here.
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tantek ouch - I'm sorry to hear that. yes we tried to document so many things. I'm sure we missed many things too. :/
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neuro` No problem, I think we also were unable to renew ourselves.
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tantek it has made me more diligent in documenting more and more on wikis over time
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tantek e.g. with microformats, and most recently with indiewebcamp.com
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neuro` For me, generic Barcamps in Paris died at Yahoo! in 2007 when it turned to a fight betwen 2 identity certification startups.
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neuro` We then had some tech barcamps like Rails ones, then it slowly died.
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tantek wow - are either identity certification startups still around?
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tantek neuro yes with indiewebcamp we have a strong Creator focus / requirement which tends to scare away most marketing/sales people
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/Creator
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@haverholm RT @t: Google Reader is dead. The answer is not another SPOF, but integrated indie aggregation. Crazy? Join us: #indiewebcamp (ttk.me t4Qo1)
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neuro` tantek: just checked and no. One of them survived up to last year thought.
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tantek neuro` community management and curation is quite challenging.
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tantek the default path is toward a lower lowest common denominator and spam (sales/marketing pitch people)
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tantek it takes a challenging combination of energy, cleverness, and compassion to keep things at an optimistic level
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neuro` So true. The new hack*.* trend is less likely to attract big idea people because you're forced to produce something, and startup week-end like events are a good mix of business - ideas / tech / design.
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neuro` But I miss the mix of ideas and passion that was leveraged at Barcamps
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tantek even the hack* events are trending a bit too much toward beer and startups rather than ideas and passion
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neuro` True. That's the reason why we're setting up http://releaseparty.net/
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tommorris vodka+web standards > beer+startups.
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bret gnighjt
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bret good night*
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Loqi gute nacht!
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bret Loqi, mein liebling
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Loqi grins profusely
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tantek nice
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tommorris starts a discussion with danbri about Google Reader: https://twitter.com/tommorris/status/351999207462273024 :)
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@tommorris @danbri being able to keep track of the web outside of the corporate-owned siloweb is quite useful. ;)
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neuro` Talk to you later, it's lunch time. And I need to discuonnect to finish porting the webmention-client in Ruby
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neuro` Or I'll just spend the day talking on IRC and never get it released.
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Loqi barnabywalters: sandeepshetty_ left you a message 8 hours, 6 minutes ago: Added the HTML files for testing out the Authorship Algorithm to github https://github.com/sandeepshetty/authorship-test-cases and linked to it on the wiki
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Loqi barnabywalters: sandeepshetty_ left you a message 8 hours, 5 minutes ago: replace raw.github.com with rawgithub.com to server the pages with text/html
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tantek tommorris - twitter is quite futile for discussions in general
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tommorris indeed
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@kevinmarks » @benguild: @kevinmarks keep the dream alive« the Web dream of the 90s is alive in Portland #indiewebcamp #xoxofest
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@sandeepshetty RT @t: Google Reader is dead. The answer is not another SPOF, but integrated indie aggregation. Crazy? Join us: #indiewebcamp (ttk.me t4Qo1)
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neuro` tantek: for online discussion and brainstorming, hackpad is one of the best thing since sliced bread, a pity it's not open source.
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tantek neuro` I think I found the login stuff on hackpad just annoying to dismiss it
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tantek and prefer etherpad instead
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tantek (which is open source)
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tantek this is still blowing my mind a bit: https://conversationprism.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/ConvoPrismLarge.jpg
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tantek so many silos
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pdurbin neuro`: any features in hackpad that etherpad doesn't have?
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sandeepshetty pfefferle: morning
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pfefferle good morning
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sandeepshetty looking forward to your commits to indie reader :)
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pfefferle me too… pubsubhubbub debugging isn't fun at all :(
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sandeepshetty in holding off in PuSH.
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sandeepshetty *on
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pfefferle what do you mean?
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sandeepshetty not looking at PuSH.
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@markuslanthaler WebMention, a modern (and minimal) alternative to Pingback http://webmention.org/ Can be used for distributed #indieweb comments, likes etc.
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@laprice RT @t: Google Reader is dead. The answer is not another SPOF, but integrated indie aggregation. Crazy? Join us: #indiewebcamp (ttk.me t4Qo1)
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@OjoFadero RT @t: As of 2013-182 I'm PESETASing my @flickr @instagram @path @thisismyjam posts all to @tumblr as a stopgap. #ownyourdata (ttk.me t4Qo2)
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benwerd !tell tantek A preview of coming attractions: http://werd.io/file/51d2f810bed7dee523aaad1b Interested in feedback.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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benwerd thanks, Loqi
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Loqi dude
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benwerd excellent
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aaronpk benwerd: awesomeeeee
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benwerd aaronpk: Tonight I'll build in the concept of notifications to idno, so that when (for example) someone comments on a post it'll ping me in Firefox
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Loqi tantek: benwerd left you a message 18 minutes ago: A preview of coming attractions: http://werd.io/file/51d2f810bed7dee523aaad1b Interested in feedback.
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aaronpk benwerd: that's awesome
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benwerd aaronpk: Thanks! I was up waaaaay too late working on it ;)
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aaronpk hah nice
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tantek benwerd - is that a browser add-on for RSVP?
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benwerd tantek: that's the Firefox Social API with a share extension that automatically detects the kind of content on the page and displays a different form appropriately
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benwerd session also works
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benwerd tonight after work I'll add notifications
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aaronpk !!!
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benwerd the way it works is: the share pane determines what kind of indieweb comment / reply is appropriate, then asks installed plugins if they can handle it
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benwerd it goes ahead and displays the edit form for the first one that replies, filling in link and body details as appropriate
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tantek benwerd that is brilliant
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benwerd * nb: installed idno plugins, not Firefox plugins
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tantek so you don't have to leave whereever you in order to reply or blog about what you're reading
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benwerd right. I also grudgingly included a Twitter shim, so it handles tweets appropriately.
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benwerd I'm most excited about the notifications though, once I get those working.
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aaronpk benwerd: is this what you're using? https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Social_API/Share
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benwerd aaronpk: yes
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benwerd but actually aspects of the whole of https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Social_API
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benwerd I've got a sidebar, and my logged-in user appears in a Firefox contextual menu when you click that "idno" button
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@tabatkins RT @t: Google Reader is dead. The answer is not another SPOF, but integrated indie aggregation. Crazy? Join us: #indiewebcamp (ttk.me t4Qo1)
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benwerd again, notifications to follow (which will also show up in that sidebar, as part of the wider activity stream)
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benwerd tantek: anyway, wanted to get your thoughts because we were talking about it the other evening
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aaronpk how do i do that!!
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aaronpk lol
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aaronpk 404 https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Social_API/Guide/FirstSteps
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aaronpk linked from https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Social_API
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benwerd Yeah, the tutorials are blank
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benwerd which is partially why I was up very late ;)
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benwerd I'm going to write up a tutorial blog post about it
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aaronpk sweeeet
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aaronpk tantek: awesome, I'm feeling a lot better about using indieauth wider now that it supports non-oauth providers like persona and SMS :)
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tantek aaronpk - sorrry about the 404 :/
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benwerd aaronpk: The SMS integration is so unbelievably cool
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tantek I think the docs are "in progress"
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aaronpk benwerd: oh and you should try out the google authenticator one now too :)
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benwerd oh! brb
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aaronpk tantek: oh I get it, it's just not written yet... should say {{stub}} or {{placeholder}} instead of 404
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tantek yeah seriously
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aaronpk huh... logging in from the 404 page just gives me a blank page after finishing the persona login
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benwerd aaronpk: google works beautifully. nice work
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benwerd I'm finding it a very useful way to check which of my profiles actually point to my new domain, too.
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aaronpk benwerd: oh I meant using the google authenticator app :)
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aaronpk it's still a bit secret. log in here, https://indieauth.com/ and then you'll get the login form with info about the google authenticator app
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benwerd Ohhhh
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bret aaronpk, the google authenticator works great! Except when you try to add it using the phone tag has the authenticator on it. Great work though.
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bret That*
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bret Also, cool benwerd !
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bret I wonder if chrome will follow with the social api.
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tantek bret - or if they'll just integrate G+
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benwerd my assumption, too, is that the Social API will work in Firefox OS / Mobile eventually, which is partially what made me decide to do it
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benwerd that contextual share becomes a really big deal
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@ozten Looks like Google Takeout for Reader is a little busy http://innercircle.aok.io/google_takeout_for_reader_is_busy #IndieWeb
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Loqi 1 files modified, 1 new files in aaronpk/IndieAuth/master by aaronpk https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieAuth/compare/e05ab84edacf...b0bda56daa2f
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Loqi aaronpk: toto auth tokens can only be used once. adds login form to the /totp page so I can send a link directly to people
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aaronpk toto??
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aaronpk ok now you can just go here to set up google authenticator: https://indieauth.com/totp
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neuro` Hello xtof
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neuro` I was about to write you one day or another.
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aaronpk neuro`: lol, please don't use the WTFPL
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xtof cool
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xtof are you in Paris ?
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neuro` xtof: what about importing an indie web camp to Paris, old school barcamp style, about both protocols and implementation of indie web?
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neuro` xtof: still in Paris yes.
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neuro` << Frédéric de Villamil (in case of)
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xtof let's talk IRL :) http://doodleLcom/xtof I'd be happy to imagine any #uf dinner during the holidays
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neuro` I'm leaving at the end of the week and am all alone with the kids til then, but I'm totally free starting July the 29th
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xtof cool news sorry for the broken link http://doodle.com/xtof should be better
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neuro` I fixed it myself.
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xtof nice, I'd be happy to have any dinner whenever you want. currently working on bipolar disorder : calm needed.
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neuro` Then you should leave Paris for a while :)
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xtof Yeah : planning to leave Paris July 12 th.
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neuro` I'm leaving for 3 weeks with a 3g only connection, planning to work on all my side projects on my spare time.
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xtof have some nice holidays and just call me ! 06 32 03 97 96 whenever you want in my #chronodream. Good vibes here
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xtof fiesta : 32 rue de l'échiquier 75010 Paris
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xtof leaving now cheers
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tantek hey aaronpk, was Ben Atkin at IndieWebCamp 2013? I'm doing a bit of scrubbing the Guest List per who actually showed up and who we missed
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aaronpk oh thanks. meant to do that the other day.
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tantek.com edited /2013/Guest_List (+0) "move a few folks that didn't show up to the Missed You section, note Joel gave notice ahead of time" (view diff)
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aaronpk I don't remember seeing him
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tantek +0 that's a good sign :)
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tantek also I'm having trouble remembering Eric Holscher (I'm bad with names though so I might be mistaken)
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tantek was Johannes Ernst there?
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aaronpk eric didn't show up
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tantek did Kyle make it to stop by? I don't remember seeing him.
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tantek also don't remember Matt Lee being there
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tantek also don't know
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tantek Richard Cáceres
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aaronpk kyle didn't come
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tantek.com edited /2013/Guest_List (+92) "moved a few more to missed you, updated counts of actual creators, apprentices" (view diff)
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tantek ok folks, heads-up, deadline for submitting papers/notes to attend the W3C "Workshop on Social Standards"
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tantek the organizer specifically contacted me and asked me to participate and pass along to indieweb folks
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tantek http://www.w3.org/2013/socialweb/
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aaronpk tantek: is there an example of a position paper? I've never written one before
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tantek aaronpk - you've written blog posts. same thing. :)
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tantek I'd say just a one pager about what you want to talk about
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tantek it can be a summary
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tantek and demo
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tantek e.g. a brief description of IndieAuth, and demo, a brief description of p3k, and demo
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aaronpk ok cool
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benwerd cool.
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tantek I specifically asked Harry (organizer) to contact you two explicitly :)
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tantek.com edited /Events (+752) "add W3C Workshop on Social Standards, IndieWebCamp 2014" (view diff)
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tantek and feedly falls over: https://twitter.com/haxor/status/352121082813218816
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@haxor This is why I'm using NewsBlur. https://twitter.com/haxor/status/352121082813218816/photo/1
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neuro` tantek: which feed reader did you switch to?
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tantek I'm not going to bother switching to another SPOF
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tantek neuro` - the answer is to build/integrate feed reading into your own site
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@gregoire @xtof_fr oui parlons :) …hasard du calendrier : j’ai parlé de toi et de #indieweb sur le chan’ IRC #barcamp avec @t aujourd’hui :) Bisous
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@Hack_in_a_Box RT @gregoire: @xtof_fr oui parlons :) …hasard du calendrier : j’ai parlé de toi et de #indieweb sur le chan’ IRC #barcamp avec @t aujourd’h…
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neuro` tantek: definitely agree, but all the self hosted feed readers are in PHP, and hosting PHP on my server goes against my religion (even though I'm working - but not for long - for a company that does a PHP based Web app)
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aaronpk lol
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neuro` So I belive I'll have to hack something quick and dirty.
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aaronpk php is quick and dirty
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neuro` There's a dirtyness limit I'm trying not to reach
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neuro` :)
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benwerd Hey now
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benwerd neuro`: what's your preference?
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neuro` benwerd: sh, Ruby or Python I'm learning for my new job.
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benwerd neuro`: Python's definitely something I want to pick up too.
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benwerd (But for now I guess I don't mind being quick and dirty.)
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benwerd I actually think PHP 5.3+ is a pretty solid environment for development. The previous versions, maybe not quite as much.
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@t @sampullara need #indieweb site integrated reader.
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neuro` benwerd: I think I'm going to hack a quick RSS reader based on https://github.com/pauldix/feedzirra
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benwerd neuro`: if you wanted to include h-feed / h-entry stream parsing I think a lot of us would love you forever #hinthint
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neuro` Great idea. Like it.
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benwerd Cool!
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benwerd As I think tantek said a little earlier - an IndieWeb reader would be a really great thing to have
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neuro` Maybe I can setup a hacking day with a few friends here.
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aaronpk that looks liek a nice project
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aaronpk curious to check out all the sanitization stuff they have there
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aaronpk aaand the number of sites with broken RSS imports continues to grow https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Google+Alerts+no+longer+supports+RSS+delivery%22
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neuro` But first, I need to finish the rebranding of our blogging engine since we've changed its name after 7 long years.
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neuro` Typo was 1/ a stoopid name for a blogging engine where you should deliver quality content 2/ too much typography related 3/ not searchable 4/ too cose to Typo3, another publishing tool
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aaronpk oh hey feedzirra specifically mentions microformats
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tantek URL?
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aaronpk https://github.com/pauldix/feedzirra
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aaronpk specifically https://github.com/pauldix/feedzirra#description
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aaronpk "Feedzirra could be used to parse much more than feeds. Microformats, page scraping, and almost anything else are fair game."
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aaronpk how's that ruby microformats-2 parser coming along?
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tantek would need to ping shaners or jlsuttles about that
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tantek maybe tommorris can help out too
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aaronpk i feel an itch coming
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aaronpk gotta finish events first tho
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neuro` I'll finish the rebranding from typo to publify tonight, then switch to playing with feedzirra
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aaronpk this? http://getpublify.com/
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aaronpk and https://github.com/fdv/publify ?
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neuro` aaronpk: the latter, and OMG, there was already a publify around
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neuro` I forgot to check it, only the domain name :(
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Loqi it'll be ok
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neuro` Well, they didn't release anything, so...
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neuro` Also they registered the name in 2011 and never did anything with it.
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aaronpk it's not listed on their main page either
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neuro` aaronpk: my publify is https://github.com/fdv/publify, but I'm fixing the build before I change the README
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neuro` also moving to publify.co
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aaronpk cool
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neuro` And we're working on adding web mentions to publify, that's the reason why I'm porting webmention-client to Ruby.
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aaronpk great! oh cool, that shouldn't be too hard
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neuro` It's not. But my days are only made of 24 hours, and I'm home alone with my 3 kids til the end of the week.
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aaronpk hmm I should have put "php" in the name of this https://github.com/indieweb/mention-client
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neuro` And also too verbose on IRC
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aaronpk neuro`: I know, I wish there were more hours or that I needed to sleep less
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neuro` Yup, probably
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neuro` Probably was for the PHP
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aaronpk well, could always put both php and ruby into the same repo, lol, then just publish them separately on their respective package managers
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aaronpk probably not much would break if I renamed mention-client to mention-client-php
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aaronpk I can make mention-client-ruby for you
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neuro` No, github makes nice redircts
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aaronpk oh right, the new redirect thing is awesome
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aaronpk neuro`: do you already have a repo for the ruby version?
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neuro` aaronpk: not yet.
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aaronpk is wondering if I should rename pingback.me to something about webmention to avoid the legacy sounding name
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bret webmention.io
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bret ??
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bret or me
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aaronpk io is too expensive :(
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neuro` aaronpk: 29 euros?
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aaronpk i thought it was like $80
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aaronpk where do you get them for 29 eur?
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neuro` No no. I'm renewing some of my domain names, I can offer the indie Web webmention.io for at least 2 years.
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neuro` https://www.gandi.net biggest French domain seller
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bret aaronpk: we.bm is available
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bret XD
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bret they might also be on sale at iwantmyname
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bret webmention.me is also available
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aaronpk i could do .io if it's $29
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aaronpk oh and I can pay in $$ instead of EUR
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neuro` bret: .bm needs you to register a company in Bermuda
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neuro` aaronpk: you can pay by Paypal
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neuro` which I usually do
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bret oh really? haha
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bret having a two letter domain sounds sketchy
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bret sill http://domai.nr
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bret silly*
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aaronpk sketchy? why?
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bret since they are high demand. it seems like it would put you at more risk of whatever it is that can happen to domains
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aaronpk heh taxes too
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aaronpk ah yea
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neuro` aaronpk: do you want me to register it?
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neuro` I'm in France, may be easier.
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aaronpk nah it's cool, almost done
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neuro` Cool
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aaronpk speaking of TLDs... http://www.mydotnyc.com/ new .nyc
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bret ah col
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bret cool*
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neuro` Gandi.net is the best domainer I know, been there since 96 or 97, consider themselves as stealign people because you shouldn't charge anyone for domain names. Founder are well known French interenet activists.
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bret bret.pdx
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bret :)
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neuro` I have fdv.me, will probably make it my URL shortener.
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bret I like the ping back.me logo though. Looked good
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aaronpk maybe i can make the W look like that
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bret some kind of shoopdewoop arrow pointing somewhere
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bret yeah if you feel like it :)
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bret I have my script picking out page elements and modifying them
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bret next step is to start pulling my data in
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aaronpk i'm getting better at this gem thing
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aaronpk neuro`: stubbed it out: https://github.com/indieweb/mention-client-ruby
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neuro` aaronpk: cool, thank you. I'll fork and send pull requests
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neuro` First, I have an urgent task: our production ssl certs are expiring in 4 hours...
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aaronpk sweet. i'll hopefully be able to do a bunch on it too
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aaronpk neuro`: oh jeez... yea get on that asap!
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aaronpk i just renewed 3 of mine yesterday
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neuro` Yeah, I'm in vacation, but my junior screwed up a few things it seems
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aaronpk :(
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tantek.com edited /sign-in-use-cases (+448) "yet another use-case, show "message me" form to folks who've signed in with Web Sign-in / IndieAuth. cc: aaronpk" (view diff)
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aaronpk oh yea cool
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aaronpk also nice use of the edit comment
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tantek.com edited /sign-in-use-cases (-2) "remove numbers from use cases, not reasonable to maintain, rm redundant h1" (view diff)
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neuro` aaronpk: btw, can you check why http://t37.net does not work with indieauth despite having a rel="me" link please?
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aaronpk oh yea sure
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neuro` Must be something obvious, or a parser issue
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neuro` Thank you very much
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aaronpk ah, link to https://twitter.com instead of http
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aaronpk need to surface that error better
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neuro` OK, I'll change this
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neuro` Thank you very much
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aaronpk noted: https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieAuth/issues/20
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@osiziqol Google Reader is dead. The answer is not another SPOF, but integrated indie aggregation. Crazy? Join us: #indiewebcamp (ttk.me t4Qo1) #aggr
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aaronpk whoa!!! just noticed instagram launched a feed on http://instagram.com/