#indiewebcamp 2013-07-03

2013-07-03 UTC
tantek joined the channel
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aaronpk
tantek: instagram.com now shows your instagram feed!
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tantek
I mean yes, I'm instagram.com/tantek
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aaronpk
no, like instagram.com!
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aaronpk
if you're logged in you see what you see in the app
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tantek
oh you mean they've implemented a home page?
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tantek
well a logged in home page
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tantek
ah ok
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tantek
I thought you meant something like I'd been featured or something. :P
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aaronpk
lol. erica does that too
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tantek
haha - but she actually *does* get featured.
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aaronpk
lol, true
tantek_ and b0bg0d joined the channel
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pdurbin
I was all "why is IRC so quiet tonight?" and I just realized I left this channel earlier today ;)
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bret
who was telling me about that github pages content editor that is actually hosted on ghpages and does all the work client site?
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bret
side*
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bret
was it prose?
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bret
yes, yes it is
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bret
"Prose itself is built with Jekyll and Backbone and hosted on GitHub. The browser side application interacts directly with the GitHub API for managing your repo's contents." holly shit yes
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bret.io
edited /pingback.me (+27) "Denoted the use of pingback.me"
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@silverton
#IndieWeb v #WalledGarden :: #Protocol vs #Empire RT @paulg: An open letter to Craig Newmark: http://krrb.com/craigslist Same as it ever was.
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tantek
anyone else here have a Tumblr, and is anyone else interested in customizing their Tumblr template to support h-entry?
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bret
oh wait, i was scrolled up
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bret
hi yall
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sandeepshetty
tantek: nice. I have 2 old accounts there. I used it as a bookmarking service.
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tantek
sandeepshetty - that makes sense
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sandeepshetty
maybe I can take my design from sandeep.io and create a uf2 theme for tumblr....
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sandeepshetty
(added to todo)
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tantek
sandeepshetty, I've successfully added h-entry, and put a link rel=author link in the header to tantek.com so hopefully the authorship algorithm will get my hCard from there
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sandeepshetty
it will be cool to add pingback.me support as well
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sandeepshetty
I really like tumblr and its social blogging model (except for the non-focus on original content creation)
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bret
but thats what makes it popular! ;)
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@sandeepshetty
Marco Arment:"Keep building... platforms to empower independence interoperability &amp
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Loqi
web property ownership" http://www.marco.org/2013/07/03/lockdown #indieweb
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sandeepshetty
is loqi alive?
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sandeepshetty
bret: the platform focuses on sharing but there are lot of original content creators there.
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melvster
Officially, Google killed Reader because “over the years usage has declined”. -- lol
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melvster
i better hope gmail usage doesnt over the years 'decline' too
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melvster
'But [Facebook] did grow. And grow. And grow. And suddenly the AOL business model didnÂ’t seem so crazy anymore. It seemed ahead of its time.'
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melvster
scary stuff!
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melvster
centralization can be more agile than decentralizatoin
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tantek
it's not scary stuff, it was inevitable when Facebook was innovating in user experience while *either* blogging tech stagnated (ahem, pingback), or web architects wanked about with XML or semweb data structures (neither of which matters a whit to users)
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melvster
The bigger problem is that they’ve abandoned interoperability. RSS, semantic markup, microformats, and open APIs all enable interoperability, but the big players don’t want that — they want to lock you in, shut out competitors, and make a service so proprietary that even if you could get your data out, it would be either useless (no alternatives to import into) or cripplingly lonely (empty social networks).
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melvster
^^ quoting
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bret
its funny to hear marco talk about this stuff, he writes iOS apps for a living. He has some good points though, but what is he doing about it?
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bret
help make the web more app friendly?
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melvster
'Google resisted this trend admirably for a long time and was very geek- and standards-friendly, but not since Facebook got huge enough to effectively redefine the internet and refocus GoogleÂ’s plans to be all-Google+, all the time.4 The escalating three-way war between Google, Facebook, and Twitter '
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bret
aww shit missed the federated wiki meeting
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tantek
bret - he's blogging about it on his own domain: marco.org
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tantek
so that's a start
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bret
thats true
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bret
but he makes money from that
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bret
which is also fine
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melvster
pretty good article imho
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tantek
I think Google Reader disappearing is helping wake people up
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tantek
so maybe that's a good thing
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sandeepshetty
bret: Marco was the co-founder of tumblr
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tantek
never depend on anyone's centralized social network or even centralized aggregation service.
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bret
I just have beef with him and Daring fireball for turning a blind eye to all the crap apple pulls
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tantek
this: "It allows anyone, large or small, to build something new and disrupt anyone else they’d like "
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tantek
except for one thing - not everything allows anyone
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tantek
different open/decentralized tech is of different difficulty
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tantek
a spectrum of difficulty
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melvster
decentralized tech is very hard
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melvster
not only do you have to make a system work for you, you have to make it work for others
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tantek
melvster - no
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tantek
that's the myth that average architects perpetuate
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tantek
decentralized tech doesn't have to be hard
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tantek
it's just that most folks designing decentralized tech make a hard version, and then stop
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bret
openID?
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tantek
bret openID was too hard to consume as an independent
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tantek
that difficulty is what spurred me and @progrium to come up with RelMeAuth
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tantek
melvster - the key with "make it work for others" is an adverb that is also missed by typical network architects
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tantek
…. *eventually*
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tantek
nearly all of them pursue "make it work for others" from the beginning, and that's a fatal flaw: http://indiewebcamp.com/antipatterns#mass_adoption
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tantek
neither Twitter nor FB were design or built to "work for everyone" from the start.
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tantek
both started out as just something for the creators, and their immediate friends/colleagues
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tantek
and they slowly grew outward from there
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tantek
that lesson is lost on the typical FSW crowd
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@fdevillamil
+1000 Attempting to design directly for "mass adoption" is will likely be an obstacle to designing something useful http://indiewebcamp.com/antipatterns#mass_adoption
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melvster
it's a good point but both facebook and twitter had the advantage of centralization
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bret
tantek, have you seen this? http://fargo.io/ The guy who blogs scripting.com is creating some new weird OPML based blog/twitter/outliner platform
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tantek
melvster - and burden. Twitter fell over so much so often. FB stressed out about servers being fast enough.
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bret
oh the twitter whale
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tantek
bret - nah haven't seen it. took a quick look. not really into dropbox based apps myself.
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tantek
right
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melvster
the original openid was quite good ... it went downhill when bradfitz left
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tantek
melvster - original openid was fine to use as an identity, but as soon as you tried to write code that consumed it - it was a pain
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melvster
yes because is got more and more bloated
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tantek
both Twitter and FB will eventually fall victim to the same thing that has led people to pay less attention to email - noise and a sense that there's no community there
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tantek
dilution to the point of feeling absence of meaning
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melvster
it depends
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melvster
facebook has more longevity then twitter
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tantek
Twitter especially. Random people can reply to your tweets, and you can't unlink/delete them. etc.
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tantek
so you get spammed or trolled, or whatever, with no recourse in the UI
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tantek
FB is a bit better about that
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melvster
whoever masters the future incentives model of the web will be king ... and that's why zuckerberg knows bitcoin is key
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tantek
but even then, there is so much pent up demand to use something non-FB with your friends
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bret
I got an email from http://lionzan.me/ today after reading that blog post I wrote about IWC. He wants to start joining in on the fun! Is planning on going to IWC UK. I told him to join IRC, say hi if you see him
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tantek
bret - great!
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bret
I cant wait to see, "So why did facebook fail?" interview questions to MZ
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bret
i wonder how many years that will be
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bret
i should put together some jekyll templates that others can re-use
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tantek
bret - FB ghettoized MySpace, and FB is vulnerable to the very same problem
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bret
thats what he was asking about primarily
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bret
tantek I was hoping that G+ would myspace facebook
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bret
but that didnt really happen
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tantek
bret - except that Google can't actually build a fast service
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bret
just to keep that pattern going more rapidly
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tantek
FB understands the value of speed in UI
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tantek
responsiveness
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bret
and beer
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bret
err kegstands
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tantek
as we build the indieweb into a higher value, higher signal-to-noise community than FB, more and more folks who want a higher quality experience will switch their focus accordingly
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bret
"lets just turn off privacy and beg for forgiveness rather than ask for permission" you know thats what they did.
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tantek
it is
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tantek
let's not worry about FB
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bret
tantek, did you see that oztens indieweb blog is done on camlistor!?
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bret
how cool
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tantek
instead let's learn from their UX innovations/successes, make better versions for the indieweb, and continue to just ship and interoperate
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tantek
I'm fairly certain the indieweb is rapidly approaching a speed of innovation and interop that will soon surpass Twitter
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bret
he posted some stuff on http://news.indiewebcamp.com/
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tantek
and someday, we may even outrun FB
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bret
Do we have a running list of Indiweb implementations?
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tantek
we're not there yet, but I can certainly see that happening in 1-2 years
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tantek
at the current rate
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bret
sites that reach above some level of IndiMark?
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tantek
bret - yeah there's a table
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tantek
bret - still working on refining Levels 2+ for IndieMark :)
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tantek
but that's the basic idea
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bret
i cant remember what that table is called
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tantek
we set a series of bars, in a set of areas, and encourage each other to keep reaching
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tantek
sad that Marco is a Winer apologist
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tantek
I mean, yes, Dave Winer certainly figures out a lot of things quite early
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bret
Dave Winer, the one who does fargo
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tantek
but choice of tech (XML) and lack of community building has hamstrung his efforts (RSS)
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tantek
lots of important lessons to learn there
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bret
something seems off when you are still pushing opml subscriptions :/
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bret
well, hopefully maybe his project can eventually interop with some of this stuff here
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tantek
bret - you know about the proof that Kevin Marks and I did that OPML was never necessary?
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t37.net
edited /2013/UK (+390) "/* Remote Participants */"
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tantek
(co-authored with Mark Pilgrim naturally ;) )
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bret
no, but im curious
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bret
It sounded like Pilgrim was bummed xml failed
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tantek
lots of people were bummed xml failed
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bret
but out of that we have json
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tantek
JSON would have happened regardless
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tantek
Because Crockford is clever
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bret
(tm)
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bret
I'm going to start expanding this table
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bret
as I find indieweb stuffs
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tantek
bret - be sure to only add things where the creator is selfdogfooding
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bret
who isnt?
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tantek
otherwise you'll just end up reproducing a bunch of dead-end tables like on wikipedia and such
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tantek
bret - MOST people are not selfdogfooding their creations
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tantek
hence the deadends
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bret
hrrm... some folks are forking their main blogs. I'll run some by to you get a better idea myself
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tantek
bret - in general, be skeptical and suspicious
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tantek
LOTS of deadend social network / FSW projects
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tantek
bret - perfect example of NON-selfdogfooding - look at this hilarity: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributed_Social_Networking_Protocol
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bret
i kinda feel bad for it :[
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tantek.com
edited /Events (+128) "/* upcoming */ W3C Workshop - see also the invitation"
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bret
is it possible to rescue some of these projects? maybe try to encourage interop?
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tantek
yeah! another dead-end example
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tantek
bret - projects are not worth rescuing. people are.
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bret
watch it, they have their own channel on FN :p
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tantek
bret - yes, that's called a monoculture :P
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tantek
bret - from that URL: http://www.gnu.org/software/social/ in the "News" section:
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tantek
"Matt went to the Federated Social Web Summit in Portland, OR and met with Appleseed, Diaspora and Status.net developers, amongst others."
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tantek
guess which year that was?
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bret
buhhhh
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bret
2011?
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tantek
dead. end.
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bret
derp
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bret
Wheres loqi?
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tantek
oh Loqi
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tantek
where are you? come back!
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bret
last commit was 2011
Loqi joined the channel
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tantek
see now, if the creators were selfdogfooding, they'd be committing all the time
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tantek
no recent commits = evidence of absence of selfdogfooding = ignorable
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bret
hes not up on the list
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bret
xtfo are you the same as xtof?
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bret
i think so
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tantek
bret - xtof uses WordPress
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tantek
with plugins
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bret
no good?
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tantek
well it's good that we build interop with WordPress developers
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tantek
but it's still just "one" implementation
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bret
in the context of adding it to this table, to show a list of people who are working towards implementing commenting, replies, etc
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bret
should I make a wordpress box, and list sites using that?
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bret
I guess It seems like it would be nice to have a running list of folks who have something running, maybe that isnt the right list or table for that
erikmaarten joined the channel
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bret
Ok, well I'll start a list of possible additions below the table and discuss furthur, Im dont fully understand what qualifies yet I dont think
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tantek
bret - it's not clear it's worth adding anything to the table besides your own site and implementation.
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tantek
because that way, you know you'll keep it up to date (since it's yours)
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bret
ok, that make sense
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bret
ill set up my own collection of links
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werd.io
edited /2014/Planning (+28) "/* volunteers */"
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bnvk joined the channel
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melvster
gnu social fell down the ostatus rabbit hole ...
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melvster
it's frustrating because tim berners-lee sat down with matt lee and told him exactly how to build it (close to indie web style) ... he even gave him a mug and GNU social had lots of interest ... then the web 2.0 advocates got their teeth into it and gutted it
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melvster
if we had made the right turn there we could have a large indieweb FLOSS community now
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bret
how did they gut it?
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melvster
the deal breaker was that some ostatus code was donated to gnu social under AGPL so they thought they'd get a headstart, it turned out to be a black hole
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bret
[00:28] <bret> is this project still active?
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bret
[00:31] <ErkanYilmaz> yes
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melvster
bret: bloated it full of web 2.0 buzz protocols, most of which dont interoperate with themselves let alone anything else, and are so complicated that everyone implments them a different way
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bret
im not sure how to repsond to that warm intro
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melvster
so they are going to inherit what's left of status.net
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melvster
good luck with that!
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bret
yikes
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bret
didnt the status.net folks abandon it for pump?
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melvster
pretty much
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bret
Also, starting my own list of indieweb enabled sites spotted in the wild https://pinboard.in/u:bcomnes/t:indieweb/
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tantek
bret - reminds me of Monty Python
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tantek
"I'm not quite dead yet." "Shut up, yes you are"
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tantek
melvster the problem started with: "tim berners-lee sat down with matt lee and told him exactly how to build it "
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tantek
!= selfdogfood
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bret
tantek XD
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melvster
no one understand the web better than tim, imho
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melvster
s/understand/understands
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Loqi
melvster meant to say: no one understands the web better than tim, imho
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bret
can one person really understand all of the web?
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bret
Loqi, when did you come back?
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tantek
melvster - that was true when tim selfdogfooded. he doesn't code enough any more.
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melvster
tantek: tim still codes alot but he's in high demand for speaking around the world ... I work on the same project as him ;)
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tantek
"told him exactly how to build it" - nothing successful is built that way
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tantek
building always takes iteration
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tantek
melvster, good to hear that he codes a lot
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tantek
that's refreshing
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melvster
tantek: he was with world leaders at davos for the world economic forum, and he checked in a code fix during his lunch break ... now that's what I call dogfooding!
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tantek
was it a code fix for his own site?
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tantek
melvster - irony is that Tim still uses a w3.org URL rather than his own.
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@benwerd
In conversation with @alevin, realized that events can be replies to calendars (with, in turn, RSVPs). #indieweb
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tantek
coding != dogfooding
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melvster
tantek: for tabulator, it's a javascript based data browser, im working on the social pane right now, a full social network in your browser
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tantek
melvster - meh
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tantek
FF shipped Social API already
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tantek
works today
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tantek
benwerd even has it working indieweb style
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melvster
tantek: timbl dogfoods all the time, he even does his taxes using tabulator and code he wrote
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tantek
"data browser" - meh
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melvster
tantek: firefox didnt really do much ... they've not even fixed the bugs marc andreessen introduced yet
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tantek
melvster - FF dropped <blink> :)
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melvster
yeah a tragedy
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melvster
now you cant do
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melvster
shroedinger's cat is <blink>not</blink> alive
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tantek
melvster - just use CSS animations :P
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melvster
the original browser (actually called WorldWideWeb) was actually a browser / editor ... tim asked every browser since the beginning to keep the editor functionality but they all said it was too complicated
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melvster
that's why the web is mainly read only today
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melvster
tabulator tries to fix that and make put the original read / write functionality back into the browser
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@benwerd
@alevin I think absolutely. Of course they shouldn't care about indieweb or html5 - just a better app.
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bret
tantek are you using the new ff phone?
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tantek
bret - I'm trying to go post-phone
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tantek
wifi only if I can
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tantek
I am not a phone number.
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bret
i tried that a while back with a nokia n810 didnt go well
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bret
thats hardcore man
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bret
what do you use for voice?
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tantek
benwerd is falling prey to armchair rhetoric
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tantek
bret - Facetime or Skype
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tantek
Skype to 1800#s works quite well :)
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bret
aint that a bitch that those the the only options?
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bret
SIP totally sucks on mobile, xmpp evenmore so
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tantek
too bad about IM standards
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bret
IRC is actually one of the best real time proticols on the iphone I find
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melvster
tantek: we need an indieweb currency
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bret
ZNC + Colloquy + Apple push
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tantek
bret - yeah - I like IRC
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tantek
melvster - meh, not a priority for me personally.
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melvster
i guess we have karma already
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bret
melvster++
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Loqi
melvster has 1 karma
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bret
melvster ++
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bret
there we go
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melvster
yay! :D
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Loqi
giggles
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bret
virtual currency
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melvster
karma should be tradable
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tantek
bret++
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Loqi
bret has 1 karma
xtfo joined the channel
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bret
but what about the evil effects of profeit motive? i belive they have a term for that on reddit
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bret
woopwoop
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bret
i swell with power with my +1 karma
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bret
tantek ++
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bret
tantek++
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Loqi
tantek has 12 karma
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melvster
is there a league table?
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melvster
loqi, show me karma
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melvster
worth a try lol
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bret
loqis hella lazy right now
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melvster
is there a microformat for a bitcoin address?
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bret
there is a URI!
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bret
http://bret.io/ check the bottom
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melvster
bret: nice url
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bret
i had a better one before
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melvster
i used to have mel.vn but ditched it ... i still have melvin.me
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bret
aww thats good
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bret
the old one
pfefferle joined the channel
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melvster
i also used to have hea.vn
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melvster
but those .vn are expensive
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melvster
nice email address god@hea.vn lol
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bret
are you thinking about starting some indieweb projects?
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bret
lol start emailing people with that
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melvster
who me? sure ...
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melvster
<a href="bitcoin:1DtDQM65KkrGjVQ8BsCdujZREoJNmt4JJf">1DtDQM65KkrGjVQ8BsCdujZREoJNmt4JJf</a>
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melvster
but no @rel attribute
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melvster
god of tweets?
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melvster
bret: you should get a vanity address for bitcoin
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melvster
mine is
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melvster
<span rel="foaf:account" href="bitcoin:1MELViNpSnbjFQF1vWHr8pcWHMgvfMyChh">
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bret
whats that?
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neuro`
This @god account is a fake, it's now mine
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melvster
it's like one of those license plates where you put in your own letters
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melvster
mine starts ... 1MELViN
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bret
oh i see it spells your name
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melvster
it also shows you are not a sock puppet
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bret
how do you do that?
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melvster
ie someone that created a million accounts
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melvster
vanitygen ... do a search
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bret
can I put it into coinbase?
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bret
running the client sucks, and I dont have much storage on my VM
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bret
so keeping 8GB of block chains around is also a burden
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melvster
use electrum
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melvster
dont use coinbase
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bret
whysat?
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bret
why not coinbase?
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melvster
i dont like them
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melvster
melvin@melvin-nT:~/dev/vanitygen$ ./vanitygen 1BRET
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melvster
Difficulty: 4476342
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melvster
Pattern: 1BRET
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melvster
Address: 1BRETsyC8ZCxhAtGimQfzWUKWNsdai4jZf
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melvster
Privkey: 5JNu37eGnzwWYJD3Ru4ChGw5ziwq76FJ3hABVQeKCQXrRo7gNff
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bret
they seem more legit than a lot of other sites, plus they have real investors behind them
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bret
plus I can just throw up a Bitcoin address and not give a shit
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melvster
you can on your client anyway
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melvster
i used to read hacker news
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melvster
but i think paul graham favours coin base after his investment in them
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@tupprparty
The rise of the IndieWeb http://sprd.local/f
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bret
:( vanity gen isnt on homebrew
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melvster
just use git
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melvster
electrum is a good lite client
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bret
yeaht that looks nice
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bret
do I need to have the block chain downloaded?
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bret
ill keep it in mind
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melvster
it's instant and even gives you a brain wallet seed
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bret
what is that?
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Loqi
that is true for a system that exists outside a closed group of people
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melvster
so you remember a little poem and you've got all your bitcoin addresses saved in your head
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melvster
and can then access then from any computer
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bret
interesting
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xtfo
aaronpk Bonjour. I've a meeting next friday with href (indieweb creator in France) and would be happy to test pingback.me on my personal site. Could you open me a demo account ?
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bret
bitcoins only like 90 bucks right now
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melvster
bret: depends who you trade with, but that ball park
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bret
i kinda want to buy one and see where it goes
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bret
ill wait till I start getting paid again :[
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melvster
it'll go to 1000 i suspect then meet some resistance
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@tupprparty
WordPress and IndieWeb-Comments http://sprd.local/i
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melvster
im on record when it was about $5 as having a price target of $1000
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melvster
but the development needs to justify the valuation
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melvster
there's every indication that it will, imho, the dev community is pretty strong
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melvster
id like to incorporte it into indieweb ... or something similar
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melvster
hence I'd like to be able to trade indieweb karma using relmeauth
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melvster
every indie web page could also be a virtual wallet
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tantek
bret - that is a great post from benwerd
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tantek
benwerd++
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Loqi
benwerd has 1 karma
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tantek
that's it?!?
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bret
benwerd++
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Loqi
benwerd has 2 karma
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bret
+++++++++
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bret
melvster electrum is nice
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melvster
yup ... i know some of the devs
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melvster
elgg was such a great concept
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bret
way better than the QT implementation getting rid of that shit
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melvster
such a pity they didnt get more devs
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melvster
bret: write your brain seed down on paper
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melvster
dont keep it in open text
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bret
I put it into my keepass
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bret
which has mega encryption
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bret
so im told
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melvster
'mega encryption' ... that's ok then :)
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bret
3 factor authentication
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melvster
something you know, something you have, something you ARE?
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bret
key file, windows account, password
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melvster
normally 3 factor means something like retina or fingerprint these days
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bret
its kind of redundant
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tantek.com
edited /GitHub (+186) "Porting to the IndieWeb with feed"
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melvster
enjoying the article
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melvster
until I got to 'Reinventing the social web'
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melvster
now i cringe ... do I dare read on ...
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bret
github is only good for text mostly, and small bin files
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bret
they enforce a 1Gb soft limit
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bret
you can go over, but they cut you off till you slim down I think
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melvster
elgg was ahead if it's time
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tantek
melvster - don't forget history, hypertext was reinvented several times until Tim came up with HTML
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melvster
but that nosql + mysql hybrid thing they had was soooo slow
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tantek
is documenting silo feeds
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tantek
to help folks export their data and/or PESOS at least
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melvster
tantek: ted nelson invented hypertext, tim just added global variables ... in timbls words, 'when you add global variables to some programming languages they fall apart, when you add them to hypertext, you get The Web.' -- this was the great insight, especially as every computer scientist is taught globals are bad
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melvster
global variables == URLs
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melvster
seems so obvious now
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melvster
but back then was a genius insight
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bret.io
edited /GitHub (+420) "/* No HTTP Status Code Control */ Added file type and size limit info."
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melvster
mongodb -- meh
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bret
Should I capitalize wiki page names?
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bret.io
edited /GitHub (-10) "Added more restrictions"
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bret
aww crap deleted the last section I wrote
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bret.io
edited /GitHub (+420) "Re added section I deleted"
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bret.io
edited /GitHub (+106) "/* GitHub Pages */ Added note about the other services they offer in terms of webhosting"
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bret.io
edited /Jekyll (+386) "Added differentiation between jekyll and github's siloness"
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bret.io
edited /Jekyll (+306) "/* Related Tools */ Added more tools I found today that acutally make jekyll way more viable as an indieweb participant"
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bret.io
edited /Jekyll (+12) "/* Related Tools */ Fixed typo"
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notizblog.org
edited /PubSubHubbub (+655) "/* Testing */"
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notizblog.org
edited /PubSubHubbub (+8) "/* Arbitrary Content */"
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@sandeepshetty
Thanks you Google for reviving #rss/#atom. http://www.sandeep.io/102 #indieweb
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tommorris
cracking good grumpery from marco: http://www.marco.org/2013/07/03/lockdown
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pdurbin
tommorris: yup. linked earlier by sandeepshetty. good stuff
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www.sandeep.io
edited /PubSubHubbub (+660) "Noted issue about there primarily being only one hosted hub"
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neuro`
Just one rethoric question: how do we login on sites providing indieauth if indieauth is down?
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sandeepshetty
neuro`: I use persona on my site and it has the same problem.
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neuro`
sandeepshetty: sites owner using indieauth should probably provide both client and server implementation to ensure a real decentralized system, but then it limits the use of indie auth to hardcore geks.
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neuro`
geeks
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barnabywalters
or just host their own instance of indieauth
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pdurbin
is there a main instance of indieauth people are relying on always being up?
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barnabywalters
indieauth.com
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pdurbin
ok. yeah, that's... suboptimal
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sandeepshetty
indieauth actually has two points of failure.
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tommorris
you can run your own indieauth instance. the code is open source. indiewebcamp uses indieauth.com but there's no reason you can't run you rown
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neuro`
tommorris: agree, and that's what I plan to do, BUT, it's another point that may prevent the spread of indie auth
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notizblog.org
edited /PubSubHubbub (+114) "/* Issues */"
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tantek.com
edited /GitHub (+6) "/* Porting to the IndieWeb */ activities"
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tantek
neuro` - IndieAuth is just one particular open source implementation (and service deployment) of Web Sign-in. The best implementation currently.
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tantek.com
edited /silo (+85) "add a couple more"
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tantek
neuro` - more broadly speaking it's Web Sign-in we'd like to see spread
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tantek
and indieauth is greatly helping with that
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tommorris
emails theryanking asking to get the barcamp photo relicensed for use on wikipedia. :)
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tommorris
now Flickr has been so helpfully redesigned, it uses infinite scrolling, which means I need infinite RAM and infinite time to load the oldest photo
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tantek
tommorris - it's not infinite, it's just A LOT. eventually it does hit some pagination point.
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tommorris
near-infinite ;)
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grawity
infinite scrolling also means you need infinite time to reach the "privacy policy" and "contact us" links in the website's footer
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tommorris
I tried to do that the other day on a site. couldn't ever get to the 'about' link
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tommorris
which is a real shame if I wanted to send them an email or something
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neuro`
tantek: agree for spreading Web Signin, but since we've been talking about removing SPOFs, lately
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tantek
tommorris, email? ;)
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tommorris
I know. e-fail.
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tommorris
trust me, email is usually my method of last resort.
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neuro`
I've spen the past 6 years in a company developing a product to eradicate email from the enterprise field. We've ben acquired by a company that trademarkeed "zero email company", and I've never been into that much mass mailings in my whole life.
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tantek
neuro` lol
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tantek.com
created /FFFFound (+286) "stub with description, example of a user's feed"
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EHLOVader
question on these updates which are stubs about other social networks
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EHLOVader
are those things which have been integrated with the social network ideas for the open web?
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EHLOVader
or just social networks you think would be worth it? or just a list of social networks for looking into ideas
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tantek
feel free to document any silos you want to, especially if you can document how to get your data out
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tantek
(e.g. exports, feeds)
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tommorris
I should probably release my Tumblr code.
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tommorris
s/release/finish/g :)
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Loqi
tommorris meant to say: I should probably finish my Tumblr code.
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tommorris
getting data out of Tumblr is pretty easy. no having to get API keys or OAuth tokens or anything
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tantek
tommorris - hence it's a logical destination for PESETAS
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tantek.com
edited /Tumblr (+218) "PESETAS"
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tantek
EHLOVader - go ahead and add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC-people
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EHLOVader
loving the lurk
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EHLOVader
need to setup my domain with all the stuff for authentication
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EHLOVader
looking into that still
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EHLOVader
what backend framework is most popular in here for the open web (either due to ease of use or larger supportive community)
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barnabywalters
EHLOVader: I don’t think there is any one which is “most popular”
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EHLOVader
that is like religion in most these channels, everyone has an opinion
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tantek
tommorris man that's a rough photo :)
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tommorris.org
edited /Tumblr (+316) "/* How to */ adding export"
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@gcouprie
http://indiewebcamp.com/databases-antipattern?utm_content=bufferaffc7&utm_source=buffer&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Buffer and now, I imagine the CMS managing files lists and folders instead of doing SQL. Bad performance, bad security.
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tantek.com
edited /silo (+287) "encouragement to document silos that your friends use (thus POSSE candidate), or for documenting data export"
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tantek
LOL - one of the SQL holdouts.
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barnabywalters
those utm URL params completely disrespect the content they’re attached to
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barnabywalters
assuming it’s only ever going to be seen in one context
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tantek
indeed. perhaps Loqi can be taught to strip them.
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Loqi
woot!
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barnabywalters
it would be nice to get some citations for the FAQ on that page — IIRC most of them came from IRC dicsussions
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tantek
oh he's a consultant. Databases are very good to high paid consultants. :)
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tantek
barnabywalters - sure, as they come. most of us have better things to do (build stuff) than continue to debunk bad ideas
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barnabywalters
yeah, just like (bad) SEO people love schema — they get to write more lines of code so it looks like they’re doing something
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barnabywalters
tantek: good point ;)
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tantek
you too :)
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tommorris
manages a database for a living at the moment. ;)
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tantek
barnabywalters - it's worth documenting debunking of bad ideas if they end up being distracting in IRC
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tantek
so eventually you can just send URLs to people instead of having to argue the same arguments.
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tantek
saves us all time so we can focus on useful/constructive things
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tommorris
see, I think the database trap is fixable in one way: a database that would require you to set up offsite backup before you can do ANYTHING
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tommorris
like, it asks you for Dropbox or Amazon S3 credentials and runs automated backups
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tommorris
which reminds me: need to set up a Postgres backup for tommorris.org
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tantek
tommorris - you're welcome to build such a database to disprove the database-antipattern :)
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tommorris
Amazon already have created one if you are in the enterprise market. I use it everyday: Redshift.
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tommorris
it's perhaps overkill for a blog though.
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barnabywalters
we just need to tell anyone who like DBs that the filesystem is actually a mature, robust, portable NoSQL key-value storage database with high-speed native drivers which come with every programming language
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barnabywalters
and viewers/querying tools built into every operating system
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tantek
barnabywalters - you should add that to the wiki page :)
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tantek.com
edited /Flickr (+907) "add feeds examples from Flickr for export/PESOS purposes"
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tantek.com
edited /Tumblr (+203) "rm h1, expand dfn, add feeds section"
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tantek.com
created /Twitpic (+356) "stub with username re-use note, feed example"
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tantek.com
edited /silo (+52) "/* Specialized Silos */ add Twitpic"
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tantek
anyone here who actually used Google Reader to subscribe to feeds from silos, please stub pages for those silos and add examples of feeds from them. I've documented the few silos I apparently had subs to feeds thereon.
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tantek
cc: tommorris in particular
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tantek
(since he noted how much he had in Google Reader)
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aaronpk
barnabywalters: best description of a filesystem ever
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aaronpk
catching up on logs, holy crap lots of midnight chatter!
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aaronpk
looks like there was a huge netsplit. I imported all the logs from my IRC client
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Loqi
IMPORTED ALL THE LOGS http://loqi.me/7_0
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tantek.com
edited /Twitter (+484) "/* POSSE entire note to twitter */ expand description and explanation of permashortcitation"
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tantek.com
edited /short-domains (+184) "related permashortcitations and permashortids, link to related Twitter POSSE advice"
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tantek
waits for Loqi to get his own indieweb site at loqi.me
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tantek
so we can reply, favorite, etc. all his memes
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aaronpk
oh dear
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tantek
woot!
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Loqi
yay!
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tantek
see I think he wants it
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aaronpk
maybe I can install idno for him
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tantek
just saw melvster note about gnu being doomed because of adopting some ostatus OSS. that's about one of the dumbest things I've read about failure. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-07-03/line/1372837888
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tantek
gnu social that is
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tantek
since when has a random donation of OSS code been a good predictor of a "headstart"?
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barnabywalters
I’m a little more confused by “he gave him a mug”
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tantek
contrast that with how much progress has been made here in the indieweb community with so many people starting *their own implementations* first, and then looking to reuse just *bits and pieces* of code second
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aaronpk
it was barnaby's php-mf2 parser that really got me off the ground though
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tantek
aaronpk - you had *tons* working before that
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tantek
for the comment stuff yeah
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tantek
aaronpk - you even went through code rewrite iterations yourself!
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aaronpk
i meant specifically in regards to the interop with other sites
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tantek
this is ironic coming from an RDF/LD advocate: "bloated it full … protocols, … so complicated that everyone implments them a different way"
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tantek
and yes, that (perhaps implicit) focus on "protocols first" is why you (the greater you of RDF/LD/FSW efforts) fail.
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tantek
this is why it's so important that here in the indieweb we focus on UX first, which is one of the nice side-effects of selfdogfooding
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tantek
selfdogfooding = it hurts everytime you look at your site and it looks ugly or awkward = you fix the UX of your site first, worry about protocols second.
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tantek
is trying to figure out a way to capture this contrast in principles/priorities on the wiki
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tantek
if someone has a suggestion (which might help educate newcomers to the community), please speak up!
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tantek
aaronpk - yes, re: interop with other sites - agreed. however, note that you got to the much later after getting posting and POSSEing your own content working.
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tantek
got to *that much later
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tantek
capturing all our order-of-implementation success is important for helping newcomers who want to incrementally build / implement / deploy their own solutions
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tantek
at least it seems that way - would appreciate benwerd's input on that (as a "newcomer" who is kicking butt)
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tantek
aaronpk - also I'll point out that you've spent a bunch of time (early on) making your site, posts, etc. look quite nice - a very good UX
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tantek
I think that's made a big difference
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tantek
(still one of the cleanest/nicest reply-context and comment-display presentations I've seen - aaronpk)
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tantek
(hoping to measure up to that once I've got mine implemented)
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tantek.com
edited /WordPress (+365) "/* Problems */ note explicitly: Maintenance Vulnerability, and list the independents who's sites have been publicly hacked by spammers etc."
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aaronpk
thanks tantek!
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Demis
Hi guys, I'm trying to implement web-login following the instructions on the indiewebcamp site. I added rel="me" to the relevant links on my site, and my site to twitter/github. When I try to login with my site on indiewebcamp indieauth comes back saying No rel="me" links were found on your site! When I open my site and view the code in firefox the rel="me" links are clearly visible though. Any ideas? My site is running on node.js/expres
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Demis
s.
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tantek
Demis - URL?
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aaronpk
Demis: make sure you link to https://twitter and https://github not http
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aaronpk
that's my guess without looking at your url
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Demis
it's demisflanagan.com
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aaronpk
tantek: suggestions welcome for wording: https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieAuth/issues/20
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Demis
okay i'll try the https now thanks!
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Demis
sweet the https worked! thanks so much :)
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aaronpk
great!
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tantek
aaronpk do we have an IndieAuth troubleshooting FAQ? the http vs. https thing should definitely be in there
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aaronpk
funny, I don't think we do
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tantek.com
edited /IndieMark (+924) "/* Level 1 */ update summary description to provide overview, explain, be more approachable, understand why"
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aaronpk
would probably be easiest to manage on the indiewebcamp wiki, although could do it as indieauth.com/troubleshooting or something
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tantek
agreed with putting it on the indiewebcamp wiki
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tantek
likely to be useful to troubleshooting other relmeauth / web sign-in implementations
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tantek
of course! just recognize what's objectively obvious :)
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@benwerd
Interesting post by @anildash on the golden age of RSS: http://dashes.com/anil/2013/07/the-golden-age-of-rss.html For markup for likes etc, see the #indieweb community.
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tantek.com
edited /IndieMark (+132) "/* Level 2 */ general theme: posting replies on your own site"
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tantek.com
edited /IndieMark (+139) "/* Level 3 */ general theme: receiving and displaying indieweb replies as comments on your posts in realtime"
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tantek.com
edited /IndieMark (+187) "/* Level 4 */ general theme: support full CRUD for replies from indieweb sites and updates to comments presentation on your posts in realtime"
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Demis
I just came across the indiewebcamp site yesterday after searching decentralized social networks, is anyone here into that at all or could offer some suggestions? So far I've tried diaspora and tent status.
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bret
tantek: just a followup, I was told to check out statusnet if I wanted to see what gnu social was about
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tantek
Demis - perhaps you could describe your experiences with Diaspora and Tent and why you were unsatisfied with them
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tantek
bret - not sure saying to check out project B if you're asking about project A is very helpful. sounds like you reached another conversational dead-end.
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bret
yeah it was awkward
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bret
oops
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Demis
I wanted an implementation where the code runs on my own server and meshes with other servers running the same. I have tentd and status running on my server but wanted to see if there is anything else I could try before committing to integrating that fully
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tantek
bret - because it sounds like the discussion channel is more of a "watching something on life-support" rather than active development type of thing.
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tantek
Demis - you may want to read up on http://indiewebcamp.com/monoculture before looking for "code that *only* meshes with other servers running the same."
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Demis
yes there are some good points on there
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Demis
one thing I liked about tent is that it's aimed as being a protocol that apps can use
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Demis
when I say the same, I mean any site capable of pulling content from my own. So the 'how' should be the same, the 'who' can be different, as long as my 'what' remains under my control.
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Demis
You list Tent.io on the monoculture page, is that because of the limitations on the current client software base? It certainly would seem like a monoculture if nobody else elected to implement the protocol on their service (i.e. twitter).
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tantek
it's because the Tent folks didn't bother to re-use existing working protocols, engage with existing healthy communities, and went down the path of solving it all themselves and expecting others to follow them (when they didn't bother to follow anyone else)
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Demis
lol very true
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Demis
so do you know of anyone doing that - reusing existing protocols with the community support?
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Demis
I guess I got the feeling about tent that you describe above, hence my curiosity about what else is out there, even in the early stages.
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tantek.com
edited /monoculture (+535) "/* Examples */ Common patterns among monoculture projects include..."
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Demis
I like the web-sign in approach, it would be great to have a social stream app running on my site, that other people can log into so that their own sites start pulling content when they view their stream.
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tantek
Demis - you have found an entire community of people and various projects that work on reusing existing protocols, improving them when possible.
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Demis
when I found the site I wished I had found it before the 2013 camp :)
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Demis
reading the POSSE page, makes an excellent point about staying in touch with current friends. That's definitely an issue I've seen with services like diaspora and tent.
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tantek
Demis, it's ironic really, it's as if those other services somehow lost focus of the fact that being *social* means prioritizing staying in touch with current friends.
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Demis
tentek interesting, tried logging in at http://tantek.com/falcon/ but got 'None of your providers are supported. Tried https://twitter.com/demisflanagan, https://github.com/demisflanagan.'
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tantek
Denis - yes the relmeauth PHP lib I'm using there needs some updating :/
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tantek
it's not nearly as robust / up to date as IndieAuth
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Demis
ah okay
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tantek
yes this is me saying someone else's code/project is better than the one I'm maintaining using :)
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Demis
no worries :) Well thanks a lot for your help today, I'll keep reading up on the site and try out some of the content servers like p3k and falcon over the next while.
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tantek
I'd say Storytlr and idno are worth checking out
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tantek
they're fairly advanced IMO
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aaronpk
they are also pretty well packaged as something you can actually use, whereas p3k is not at all
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tantek
certainly way more advanced than Falcon
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tantek
also their maintainers/leads hang out here fairly often (eschnou and benwerd respectively)
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aaronpk
when can we move idno from "experimental" to "production"? :)
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benwerd
wakes up and waves
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tantek
aaronpk I think that's benwerd's call
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benwerd
aaronpk: when I ship it
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benwerd
there's code out there, but I don't consider it shipped until there's an installer and documentation
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aaronpk
ah cool
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benwerd
although! it sounds like the second ever public install might be today
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tantek
with Loqi?
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Demis
thanks I'll check those out too!
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benwerd
(there's already a private install in the wide, but this is the first third-party public site running it. unfortunately, running MongoDB turns out to be a bit of an obstacle)
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benwerd
Demis: definitely get in touch if you're interested in / need help with idno
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Demis
thanks benwerd I'll take a look and let you know
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www.sandeep.io
edited /selfdogfood (+430) "Are there two dimensions to selfdogfooding?"
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aaronpk
well now I need to show how many people have "liked" individual lines in IRC
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sandeepshetty
melvster: what is this about timbl giving matt lee a mug? (http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-07-03/line/1372837806)
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sandeepshetty
aaronpk: I'm just quoting them.. not liking...
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aaronpk
oh yea true
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sandeepshetty
but showing mentions for lines would be neat
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sandeepshetty
I so want to hear about this mug... so I can make a post saying GNU Social failed despite Timbl giving Matt Lee a mug!
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sandeepshetty
tantek: Don't remember how I landed here.. but still relevant: "A comment is a comment is a comment." -http://tantek.com/log/2003/01.html#L20030104t1249
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tantek
my goodness you dug deep to find that!
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tantek
sandeepshetty - allow me to quote my 10 year ago self:
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tantek
"I'd rather see folks write comments on their own blogs, or possibly in newsgroups, or some other place that is archived on the web. Just as I was encouraged, I encourage everyone who has something to say to start their own blog. "
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sandeepshetty
oh and "SSearch tantek.com using Yahoo! using AltaVista , using A9 :)
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tantek
oh wow - and:
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tantek
" I must ask - why is there any distinction in the presentation? I ask because many blogs present separate and different interfaces for their comments, trackbacks, and/or pingbacks. "
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sandeepshetty
what is attention.xml ?
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tantek
how/why did it take 10 years to fix this.
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tantek
hahaha - attention.xml was a dumb idea
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tantek
sandeepshetty - seriously - HOW did you find that post? "Comment markup, presentation and plumbing " 2003-01-04
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tantek
my blog archives before 2006 are noindex
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tantek
so Google wouldn't have found it
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sandeepshetty
I don't remember how... and then I found the rest...
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tantek
oh no sorry, my blog archives before *2004*. 2004 and later is indexed.
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sandeepshetty
yeah I think I landed there from some reference to hcard or hcalender
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tantek
oh look at that - back when I included select posts in a sidebar
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sandeepshetty
and a blogroll and an orkut a/c lol
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tantek
sandeepshetty - yes, welcome to the timecapsule of my blog archives - static HTML + CSS
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tantek
aaronpk - a-ha - that makes more sense
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sandeepshetty
there are lots of gems (links to other sites) on the page
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tantek
hilarious!
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sandeepshetty
"Why can't I synchronize state information to a server, so I can read feeds at home without having to re-read them the next morning at work? (Dear BlogLines users: shut up. Web apps suck.)"
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aaronpk
lol, should the IRC logs also send out webmentions?
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sandeepshetty
send all the mentions! :p
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aaronpk
that would be pretty funny
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aaronpk
except I think it might result in some infinite loops
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sandeepshetty
I have a note in my todo about webmention loops..
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sandeepshetty
(to think about this)
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sandeepshetty
but how would there be infinite loops?
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sandeepshetty
(in this case)
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aaronpk
well, if you link to a line in IRC, that creates a new IRC line since Loqi tells us about the link
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aaronpk
so then that line would send out a mention back to your post
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aaronpk
i guess it should stop there
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sandeepshetty
yeah only people posting links should send webmentions
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aaronpk
oh, the question is whether your site should send webmention notifications for comments it displays
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aaronpk
for example, I should not send mentions to the three posts below mine here: http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2013/06/28/1/indieweb
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sandeepshetty
that's the part that I have the todo for..
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sandeepshetty
I think links added as a result of a webmention should not send webmentions themselves..
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aaronpk
yes, that's what I was trying to say
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sandeepshetty
I had the todo item in the context of comment propogation..
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sandeepshetty
*propagation
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sandeepshetty
but we skipped that for now so it should not be a problem http://indiewebcamp.com/comment-propagation
andreypopp, tantek and tilgovi joined the channel
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tantek
a webmention should only get sent if some sort of change occurred. e.g. something was created/posted, or updated, or deleted. :)
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pdurbin
continues to happily /ignore Loqi ;)
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Loqi
yeah!
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tantek
I think we should seek to enable different user models
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tantek
e.g. I know the slashdot/reddit potentially infinitely nested comment thread is a popular model among some programmers
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tantek
however
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tantek
I've come to prefer the FB style of 2 levels deep max
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tantek
whereby you the post, and comments on the post, and comments on those comments, and that's it. everything else gets flattened up to the 2nd level of commets.
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tantek
and ordered by time
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tantek
(with shared 1st level comment parent/ancestor)
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sandeepshetty
the only way to stop at 2 levels would be the person at the 2nd level to not accept any comments...
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sandeepshetty
commenting is infinitely threaded by default using webmention+uf2
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sandeepshetty
(the way to not accept comments is to not advertise a webmention endpoint for the comment permalink)
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sandeepshetty
we decide to leave the presentation upto different impementations.. but the idea is that the it will follow the in-reply-to's and let you navigate the thread
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tantek
sandeepshetty - right - it's at the presentation level
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tantek
I think FB made a good UI judgment call
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sandeepshetty
yep.. and we decided that we don't need the complicated stuff to propagate comments, etc.
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tantek
I find the deeply nested comments hard to follow
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sandeepshetty
it depends on how you present it..
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tantek
I have yet to see *any* deeply nested presentation that is *not* hard to follow
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tantek
so no, for now it doesn't depend at all - they all suck :/
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tantek
also - I'd rather solve multi-replies myself rather than nested comments
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tantek
but that's just me
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tantek
aaronpk convinced me that multi-replies (and displaying them nicely) is worth solving
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sandeepshetty
I'm not looking to implement multi-reply
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tantek
so I'm saving multiple in-reply-to link per reply sometimes
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sandeepshetty
it feels like a rare enough case (for me) that I won't implement it
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tantek
right, it's a personal thing
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tantek
aaronpk pointed out he and caseorganic do it all the time
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tantek
and I found evidence that I'd done it in the past
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tantek
and have started doing it more and more now that I POSSE thread my @-replies to twitter
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tantek
I certainly create multi-replies FAR more often than *any* nested comments
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tantek
so nested comments are kind of a meh use-case for me personally, but that's why we document what we're each trying to solve
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sandeepshetty
I've been itching to do this for a long time: http://cafbit.com/entry/the_lost_art_of_threaded
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tantek
it's ok (and good!) that we're working on solving different things
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hober
multi-reply, in email, is basically the main reason i use gnus for mail
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sandeepshetty
nested comments haven't been done right (tree navigation, tree visualization and branch management) since the usenet days (conversation centered vs content centered)
tantek-ipod and sandeepshetty joined the channel
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sandeepshetty
hober: what is multi-reply in email?
spinnerin joined the channel
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tantek
hober - can you share a screenshow of what a multi-reply in email looks like?
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sandeepshetty
hober: do you mean a "very wide reply" (gnus term)