#indiewebcamp 2013-07-03

2013-07-03 UTC
tantek joined the channel
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aaronpk tantek: instagram.com now shows your instagram feed!
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tantek I mean yes, I'm instagram.com/tantek
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aaronpk no, like instagram.com!
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aaronpk if you're logged in you see what you see in the app
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tantek oh you mean they've implemented a home page?
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aaronpk yeah
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tantek well a logged in home page
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tantek ah ok
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tantek I thought you meant something like I'd been featured or something. :P
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aaronpk lol. erica does that too
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tantek haha - but she actually *does* get featured.
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aaronpk lol, true
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@ozten @jacksenechal @harlantwood @datacosmos http://innercircle.aok.io/camlistore_intro_status_update #Camlistore #IndieWeb
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pdurbin I was all "why is IRC so quiet tonight?" and I just realized I left this channel earlier today ;)
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@xtof_fr @epelboin FYI #brighton http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK
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@Brighton_RT RT @xtof_fr: @epelboin FYI #brighton http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK
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bret who was telling me about that github pages content editor that is actually hosted on ghpages and does all the work client site?
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bret side*
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bret was it prose?
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bret https://github.com/prose/prose
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bret yes, yes it is
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bret "Prose itself is built with Jekyll and Backbone and hosted on GitHub. The browser side application interacts directly with the GitHub API for managing your repo's contents." holly shit yes
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bret.io edited /pingback.me (+27) "Denoted the use of pingback.me" (view diff)
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@silverton #IndieWeb v #WalledGarden :: #Protocol vs #Empire RT @paulg: An open letter to Craig Newmark: http://krrb.com/craigslist Same as it ever was.
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tantek anyone else here have a Tumblr, and is anyone else interested in customizing their Tumblr template to support h-entry?
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tantek I started documenting it here: http://indiewebcamp.com/Tumblr#Add_microformats_support
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bret oh wait, i was scrolled up
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bret hi yall
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sandeepshetty tantek: nice. I have 2 old accounts there. I used it as a bookmarking service.
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tantek sandeepshetty - that makes sense
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sandeepshetty maybe I can take my design from sandeep.io and create a uf2 theme for tumblr....
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sandeepshetty (added to todo)
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tantek sandeepshetty, I've successfully added h-entry, and put a link rel=author link in the header to tantek.com so hopefully the authorship algorithm will get my hCard from there
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tantek from my tumblr, e.g.: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftantek.tumblr.com%2F
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sandeepshetty it will be cool to add pingback.me support as well
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sandeepshetty I really like tumblr and its social blogging model (except for the non-focus on original content creation)
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bret but thats what makes it popular! ;)
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@sandeepshetty Marco Arment:"Keep building... platforms to empower independence interoperability &amp
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Loqi web property ownership" http://www.marco.org/2013/07/03/lockdown #indieweb
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sandeepshetty is loqi alive?
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sandeepshetty Marco Arment on indieweb http://www.marco.org/2013/07/03/lockdown
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sandeepshetty bret: the platform focuses on sharing but there are lot of original content creators there.
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melvster Officially, Google killed Reader because “over the years usage has declined”. -- lol
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melvster i better hope gmail usage doesnt over the years 'decline' too
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melvster 'But [Facebook] did grow. And grow. And grow. And suddenly the AOL business model didnÂ’t seem so crazy anymore. It seemed ahead of its time.'
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melvster scary stuff!
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melvster centralization can be more agile than decentralizatoin
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tantek it's not scary stuff, it was inevitable when Facebook was innovating in user experience while *either* blogging tech stagnated (ahem, pingback), or web architects wanked about with XML or semweb data structures (neither of which matters a whit to users)
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melvster The bigger problem is that they’ve abandoned interoperability. RSS, semantic markup, microformats, and open APIs all enable interoperability, but the big players don’t want that — they want to lock you in, shut out competitors, and make a service so proprietary that even if you could get your data out, it would be either useless (no alternatives to import into) or cripplingly lonely (empty social networks).
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melvster ^^ quoting
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bret its funny to hear marco talk about this stuff, he writes iOS apps for a living. He has some good points though, but what is he doing about it?
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bret help make the web more app friendly?
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melvster 'Google resisted this trend admirably for a long time and was very geek- and standards-friendly, but not since Facebook got huge enough to effectively redefine the internet and refocus GoogleÂ’s plans to be all-Google+, all the time.4 The escalating three-way war between Google, Facebook, and Twitter '
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bret aww shit missed the federated wiki meeting
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tantek bret - he's blogging about it on his own domain: marco.org
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tantek so that's a start
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bret thats true
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bret but he makes money from that
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bret which is also fine
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melvster pretty good article imho
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tantek I think Google Reader disappearing is helping wake people up
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tantek so maybe that's a good thing
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sandeepshetty bret: Marco was the co-founder of tumblr
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tantek never depend on anyone's centralized social network or even centralized aggregation service.
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bret I just have beef with him and Daring fireball for turning a blind eye to all the crap apple pulls
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bret :p
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tantek this: "It allows anyone, large or small, to build something new and disrupt anyone else they’d like "
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tantek except for one thing - not everything allows anyone
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melvster yes
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Loqi [mention] http://werd.io/entry/51d3c98cbed7de6715d8fd15/what-idno-is linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/Main_Page (pingback)
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tantek different open/decentralized tech is of different difficulty
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tantek a spectrum of difficulty
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melvster decentralized tech is very hard
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melvster not only do you have to make a system work for you, you have to make it work for others
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tantek melvster - no
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tantek that's the myth that average architects perpetuate
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tantek decentralized tech doesn't have to be hard
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tantek it's just that most folks designing decentralized tech make a hard version, and then stop
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bret openID?
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tantek bret openID was too hard to consume as an independent
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tantek that difficulty is what spurred me and @progrium to come up with RelMeAuth
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tantek melvster - the key with "make it work for others" is an adverb that is also missed by typical network architects
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tantek …. *eventually*
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tantek nearly all of them pursue "make it work for others" from the beginning, and that's a fatal flaw: http://indiewebcamp.com/antipatterns#mass_adoption
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tantek neither Twitter nor FB were design or built to "work for everyone" from the start.
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tantek both started out as just something for the creators, and their immediate friends/colleagues
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tantek and they slowly grew outward from there
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tantek that lesson is lost on the typical FSW crowd
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@fdevillamil +1000 Attempting to design directly for "mass adoption" is will likely be an obstacle to designing something useful http://indiewebcamp.com/antipatterns#mass_adoption
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melvster it's a good point but both facebook and twitter had the advantage of centralization
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bret tantek, have you seen this? http://fargo.io/ The guy who blogs scripting.com is creating some new weird OPML based blog/twitter/outliner platform
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tantek melvster - and burden. Twitter fell over so much so often. FB stressed out about servers being fast enough.
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bret oh the twitter whale
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tantek bret - nah haven't seen it. took a quick look. not really into dropbox based apps myself.
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tantek right
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melvster the original openid was quite good ... it went downhill when bradfitz left
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tantek melvster - original openid was fine to use as an identity, but as soon as you tried to write code that consumed it - it was a pain
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melvster yes because is got more and more bloated
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tantek both Twitter and FB will eventually fall victim to the same thing that has led people to pay less attention to email - noise and a sense that there's no community there
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tantek dilution to the point of feeling absence of meaning
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melvster it depends
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melvster facebook has more longevity then twitter
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tantek Twitter especially. Random people can reply to your tweets, and you can't unlink/delete them. etc.
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tantek so you get spammed or trolled, or whatever, with no recourse in the UI
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tantek FB is a bit better about that
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melvster whoever masters the future incentives model of the web will be king ... and that's why zuckerberg knows bitcoin is key
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tantek but even then, there is so much pent up demand to use something non-FB with your friends
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bret I got an email from http://lionzan.me/ today after reading that blog post I wrote about IWC. He wants to start joining in on the fun! Is planning on going to IWC UK. I told him to join IRC, say hi if you see him
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tantek bret - great!
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bret I cant wait to see, "So why did facebook fail?" interview questions to MZ
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bret i wonder how many years that will be
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bret i should put together some jekyll templates that others can re-use
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tantek bret - FB ghettoized MySpace, and FB is vulnerable to the very same problem
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bret thats what he was asking about primarily
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bret tantek I was hoping that G+ would myspace facebook
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bret but that didnt really happen
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tantek bret - except that Google can't actually build a fast service
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bret just to keep that pattern going more rapidly
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tantek FB understands the value of speed in UI
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tantek responsiveness
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bret and beer
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bret err kegstands
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tantek as we build the indieweb into a higher value, higher signal-to-noise community than FB, more and more folks who want a higher quality experience will switch their focus accordingly
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bret "lets just turn off privacy and beg for forgiveness rather than ask for permission" you know thats what they did.
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tantek it is
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tantek let's not worry about FB
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bret tantek, did you see that oztens indieweb blog is done on camlistor!?
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bret how cool
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tantek instead let's learn from their UX innovations/successes, make better versions for the indieweb, and continue to just ship and interoperate
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tantek I'm fairly certain the indieweb is rapidly approaching a speed of innovation and interop that will soon surpass Twitter
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bret he posted some stuff on http://news.indiewebcamp.com/
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tantek and someday, we may even outrun FB
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bret Do we have a running list of Indiweb implementations?
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tantek we're not there yet, but I can certainly see that happening in 1-2 years
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tantek at the current rate
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bret sites that reach above some level of IndiMark?
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tantek bret - yeah there's a table
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tantek bret - still working on refining Levels 2+ for IndieMark :)
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tantek but that's the basic idea
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bret i cant remember what that table is called
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tantek we set a series of bars, in a set of areas, and encourage each other to keep reaching
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tantek sad that Marco is a Winer apologist
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tantek I mean, yes, Dave Winer certainly figures out a lot of things quite early
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bret Dave Winer, the one who does fargo
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tantek but choice of tech (XML) and lack of community building has hamstrung his efforts (RSS)
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tantek lots of important lessons to learn there
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bret something seems off when you are still pushing opml subscriptions :/
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bret well, hopefully maybe his project can eventually interop with some of this stuff here
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tantek bret - you know about the proof that Kevin Marks and I did that OPML was never necessary?
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tantek http://microformats.org/wiki/XOXO
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t37.net edited /2013/UK (+390) "/* Remote Participants */" (view diff)
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tantek (co-authored with Mark Pilgrim naturally ;) )
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bret no, but im curious
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bret It sounded like Pilgrim was bummed xml failed
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tantek lots of people were bummed xml failed
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bret but out of that we have json
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tantek JSON would have happened regardless
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tantek Because Crockford is clever
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bret (tm)
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bret I'm going to start expanding this table
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bret as I find indieweb stuffs
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bret http://indiewebcamp.com/indieweb-implementations
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tantek bret - be sure to only add things where the creator is selfdogfooding
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bret who isnt?
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tantek otherwise you'll just end up reproducing a bunch of dead-end tables like on wikipedia and such
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tantek bret - MOST people are not selfdogfooding their creations
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tantek hence the deadends
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bret hrrm... some folks are forking their main blogs. I'll run some by to you get a better idea myself
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tantek bret - in general, be skeptical and suspicious
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tantek LOTS of deadend social network / FSW projects
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tantek bret - perfect example of NON-selfdogfooding - look at this hilarity: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributed_Social_Networking_Protocol
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bret i kinda feel bad for it :[
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bret http://www.gnu.org/software/social/ ?
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tantek.com edited /Events (+128) "/* upcoming */ W3C Workshop - see also the invitation" (view diff)
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bret is it possible to rescue some of these projects? maybe try to encourage interop?
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tantek yeah! another dead-end example
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tantek bret - projects are not worth rescuing. people are.
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bret watch it, they have their own channel on FN :p
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tantek bret - yes, that's called a monoculture :P
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/monoculture
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tantek bret - from that URL: http://www.gnu.org/software/social/ in the "News" section:
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tantek "Matt went to the Federated Social Web Summit in Portland, OR and met with Appleseed, Diaspora and Status.net developers, amongst others."
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tantek guess which year that was?
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bret buhhhh
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bret 2011?
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bret 10?
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tantek 2010
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tantek dead. end.
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bret derp
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tantek herp
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bret Wheres loqi?
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tantek oh Loqi
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tantek where are you? come back!
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bret last commit was 2011
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tantek see now, if the creators were selfdogfooding, they'd be committing all the time
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tantek no recent commits = evidence of absence of selfdogfooding = ignorable
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bret http://christopheducamp.com/blog/premier-essai-pour-tenter-de-rejoindre-une-federation-indieweb-chez-eschnou-fra/ xtof self dog foods right?
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bret hes not up on the list
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bret xtfo are you the same as xtof?
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bret i think so
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tantek bret - xtof uses WordPress
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tantek with plugins
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bret no good?
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tantek well it's good that we build interop with WordPress developers
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tantek but it's still just "one" implementation
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bret in the context of adding it to this table, to show a list of people who are working towards implementing commenting, replies, etc
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bret should I make a wordpress box, and list sites using that?
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bret I guess It seems like it would be nice to have a running list of folks who have something running, maybe that isnt the right list or table for that
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bret Ok, well I'll start a list of possible additions below the table and discuss furthur, Im dont fully understand what qualifies yet I dont think
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tantek bret - it's not clear it's worth adding anything to the table besides your own site and implementation.
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tantek because that way, you know you'll keep it up to date (since it's yours)
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bret ok, that make sense
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bret ill set up my own collection of links
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werd.io edited /2014/Planning (+28) "/* volunteers */" (view diff)
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melvster gnu social fell down the ostatus rabbit hole ...
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melvster it's frustrating because tim berners-lee sat down with matt lee and told him exactly how to build it (close to indie web style) ... he even gave him a mug and GNU social had lots of interest ... then the web 2.0 advocates got their teeth into it and gutted it
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melvster if we had made the right turn there we could have a large indieweb FLOSS community now
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bret how did they gut it?
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melvster the deal breaker was that some ostatus code was donated to gnu social under AGPL so they thought they'd get a headstart, it turned out to be a black hole
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bret [00:28] <bret> is this project still active?
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bret [00:31] <ErkanYilmaz> yes
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melvster bret: bloated it full of web 2.0 buzz protocols, most of which dont interoperate with themselves let alone anything else, and are so complicated that everyone implments them a different way
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bret im not sure how to repsond to that warm intro
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melvster so they are going to inherit what's left of status.net
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melvster good luck with that!
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bret yikes
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bret didnt the status.net folks abandon it for pump?
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melvster pretty much
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bret Also, starting my own list of indieweb enabled sites spotted in the wild https://pinboard.in/u:bcomnes/t:indieweb/
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tantek bret - reminds me of Monty Python
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tantek "I'm not quite dead yet." "Shut up, yes you are"
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tantek melvster the problem started with: "tim berners-lee sat down with matt lee and told him exactly how to build it "
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melvster O_o
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tantek != selfdogfood
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bret tantek XD
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melvster no one understand the web better than tim, imho
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melvster s/understand/understands
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Loqi melvster meant to say: no one understands the web better than tim, imho
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bret can one person really understand all of the web?
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bret Loqi, when did you come back?
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tantek melvster - that was true when tim selfdogfooded. he doesn't code enough any more.
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melvster tantek: tim still codes alot but he's in high demand for speaking around the world ... I work on the same project as him ;)
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tantek "told him exactly how to build it" - nothing successful is built that way
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tantek building always takes iteration
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tantek melvster, good to hear that he codes a lot
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tantek that's refreshing
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melvster tantek: he was with world leaders at davos for the world economic forum, and he checked in a code fix during his lunch break ... now that's what I call dogfooding!
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tantek was it a code fix for his own site?
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tantek melvster - irony is that Tim still uses a w3.org URL rather than his own.
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@benwerd In conversation with @alevin, realized that events can be replies to calendars (with, in turn, RSVPs). #indieweb
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tantek coding != dogfooding
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melvster tantek: for tabulator, it's a javascript based data browser, im working on the social pane right now, a full social network in your browser
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tantek melvster - meh
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tantek FF shipped Social API already
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tantek works today
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tantek benwerd even has it working indieweb style
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melvster tantek: timbl dogfoods all the time, he even does his taxes using tabulator and code he wrote
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tantek "data browser" - meh
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melvster tantek: firefox didnt really do much ... they've not even fixed the bugs marc andreessen introduced yet
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tantek melvster - FF dropped <blink> :)
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melvster yeah a tragedy
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melvster now you cant do
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melvster shroedinger's cat is <blink>not</blink> alive
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tantek melvster - just use CSS animations :P
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melvster the original browser (actually called WorldWideWeb) was actually a browser / editor ... tim asked every browser since the beginning to keep the editor functionality but they all said it was too complicated
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bret this is so cool http://werd.io/entry/51d3c98cbed7de6715d8fd15/what-idno-is
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melvster that's why the web is mainly read only today
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melvster tabulator tries to fix that and make put the original read / write functionality back into the browser
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@benwerd @alevin I think absolutely. Of course they shouldn't care about indieweb or html5 - just a better app.
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bret tantek are you using the new ff phone?
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tantek bret - I'm trying to go post-phone
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tantek wifi only if I can
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tantek I am not a phone number.
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bret i tried that a while back with a nokia n810 didnt go well
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bret thats hardcore man
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bret what do you use for voice?
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tantek benwerd is falling prey to armchair rhetoric
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tantek bret - Facetime or Skype
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tantek Skype to 1800#s works quite well :)
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bret aint that a bitch that those the the only options?
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bret SIP totally sucks on mobile, xmpp evenmore so
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tantek too bad about IM standards
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melvster yeah
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bret IRC is actually one of the best real time proticols on the iphone I find
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melvster tantek: we need an indieweb currency
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bret ZNC + Colloquy + Apple push
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tantek bret - yeah - I like IRC
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tantek melvster - meh, not a priority for me personally.
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melvster i guess we have karma already
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bret melvster++
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Loqi melvster has 1 karma
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bret melvster ++
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bret there we go
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melvster yay! :D
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Loqi giggles
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bret virtual currency
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melvster karma should be tradable
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tantek bret++
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Loqi bret has 1 karma
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bret but what about the evil effects of profeit motive? i belive they have a term for that on reddit
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bret woopwoop
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bret i swell with power with my +1 karma
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bret tantek ++
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bret tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 12 karma
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melvster is there a league table?
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melvster loqi, show me karma
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melvster worth a try lol
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bret loqis hella lazy right now
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melvster is there a microformat for a bitcoin address?
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bret there is a URI!
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bret http://bret.io/ check the bottom
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melvster bret: nice url
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bret i had a better one before
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bret :(
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melvster i used to have mel.vn but ditched it ... i still have melvin.me
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bret aww thats good
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bret the old one
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melvster i also used to have hea.vn
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melvster but those .vn are expensive
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melvster nice email address god@hea.vn lol
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bret are you thinking about starting some indieweb projects?
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bret lol start emailing people with that
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melvster who me? sure ...
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melvster <a href="bitcoin:1DtDQM65KkrGjVQ8BsCdujZREoJNmt4JJf">1DtDQM65KkrGjVQ8BsCdujZREoJNmt4JJf</a>
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melvster but no @rel attribute
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bret i still like the https://twitter.com/@god
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melvster god of tweets?
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melvster bret: you should get a vanity address for bitcoin
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melvster mine is
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melvster <span rel="foaf:account" href="bitcoin:1MELViNpSnbjFQF1vWHr8pcWHMgvfMyChh">
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bret whats that?
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neuro` This @god account is a fake, it's now mine
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melvster it's like one of those license plates where you put in your own letters
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melvster mine starts ... 1MELViN
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bret oh i see it spells your name
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bret ha
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melvster it also shows you are not a sock puppet
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bret how do you do that?
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melvster ie someone that created a million accounts
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melvster vanitygen ... do a search
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bret can I put it into coinbase?
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bret running the client sucks, and I dont have much storage on my VM
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bret so keeping 8GB of block chains around is also a burden
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melvster use electrum
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melvster dont use coinbase
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bret whysat?
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bret why not coinbase?
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melvster i dont like them
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melvster e.g.
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melvster melvin@melvin-nT:~/dev/vanitygen$ ./vanitygen 1BRET
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melvster Difficulty: 4476342
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melvster Pattern: 1BRET
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melvster Address: 1BRETsyC8ZCxhAtGimQfzWUKWNsdai4jZf
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melvster Privkey: 5JNu37eGnzwWYJD3Ru4ChGw5ziwq76FJ3hABVQeKCQXrRo7gNff
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bret they seem more legit than a lot of other sites, plus they have real investors behind them
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bret plus I can just throw up a Bitcoin address and not give a shit
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melvster you can on your client anyway
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melvster i used to read hacker news
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melvster but i think paul graham favours coin base after his investment in them
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@tupprparty The rise of the IndieWeb http://sprd.local/f
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bret :( vanity gen isnt on homebrew
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melvster just use git
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melvster electrum is a good lite client
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bret yeaht that looks nice
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bret do I need to have the block chain downloaded?
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melvster nope
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bret ill keep it in mind
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melvster it's instant and even gives you a brain wallet seed
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bret what is that?
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Loqi that is true for a system that exists outside a closed group of people
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melvster so you remember a little poem and you've got all your bitcoin addresses saved in your head
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melvster and can then access then from any computer
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bret interesting
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xtfo aaronpk Bonjour. I've a meeting next friday with href (indieweb creator in France) and would be happy to test pingback.me on my personal site. Could you open me a demo account ?
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bret bitcoins only like 90 bucks right now
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melvster bret: depends who you trade with, but that ball park
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bret i kinda want to buy one and see where it goes
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bret ill wait till I start getting paid again :[
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melvster it'll go to 1000 i suspect then meet some resistance
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@tupprparty WordPress and IndieWeb-Comments http://sprd.local/i
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melvster im on record when it was about $5 as having a price target of $1000
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melvster but the development needs to justify the valuation
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melvster there's every indication that it will, imho, the dev community is pretty strong
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melvster id like to incorporte it into indieweb ... or something similar
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melvster hence I'd like to be able to trade indieweb karma using relmeauth
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melvster every indie web page could also be a virtual wallet
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tantek bret - that is a great post from benwerd
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tantek http://werd.io/entry/51d3c98cbed7de6715d8fd15/what-idno-is
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tantek benwerd++
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Loqi benwerd has 1 karma
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tantek that's it?!?
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bret benwerd++
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Loqi benwerd has 2 karma
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bret +++++++++
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bret melvster electrum is nice
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melvster yup ... i know some of the devs
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melvster elgg was such a great concept
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bret way better than the QT implementation getting rid of that shit
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melvster such a pity they didnt get more devs
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melvster bret: write your brain seed down on paper
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melvster dont keep it in open text
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bret I put it into my keepass
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melvster kk
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bret which has mega encryption
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melvster lol
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bret so im told
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melvster 'mega encryption' ... that's ok then :)
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bret 3 factor authentication
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melvster yeah?
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melvster something you know, something you have, something you ARE?
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bret key file, windows account, password
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melvster normally 3 factor means something like retina or fingerprint these days
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bret its kind of redundant
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bret XD
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tantek.com edited /GitHub (+186) "Porting to the IndieWeb with feed" (view diff)
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melvster enjoying the article
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melvster until I got to 'Reinventing the social web'
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melvster now i cringe ... do I dare read on ...
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bret github is only good for text mostly, and small bin files
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bret they enforce a 1Gb soft limit
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bret you can go over, but they cut you off till you slim down I think
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melvster elgg was ahead if it's time
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tantek melvster - don't forget history, hypertext was reinvented several times until Tim came up with HTML
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melvster but that nosql + mysql hybrid thing they had was soooo slow
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tantek is documenting silo feeds
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tantek to help folks export their data and/or PESOS at least
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melvster tantek: ted nelson invented hypertext, tim just added global variables ... in timbls words, 'when you add global variables to some programming languages they fall apart, when you add them to hypertext, you get The Web.' -- this was the great insight, especially as every computer scientist is taught globals are bad
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melvster global variables == URLs
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melvster seems so obvious now
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melvster but back then was a genius insight
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bret.io edited /GitHub (+420) "/* No HTTP Status Code Control */ Added file type and size limit info." (view diff)
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melvster mongodb -- meh
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bret Should I capitalize wiki page names?
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bret.io edited /GitHub (-10) "Added more restrictions" (view diff)
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bret aww crap deleted the last section I wrote
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bret.io edited /GitHub (+420) "Re added section I deleted" (view diff)
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bret.io edited /GitHub (+106) "/* GitHub Pages */ Added note about the other services they offer in terms of webhosting" (view diff)
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bret.io edited /Jekyll (+386) "Added differentiation between jekyll and github's siloness" (view diff)
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bret.io edited /Jekyll (+306) "/* Related Tools */ Added more tools I found today that acutally make jekyll way more viable as an indieweb participant" (view diff)
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bret.io edited /Jekyll (+12) "/* Related Tools */ Fixed typo" (view diff)
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notizblog.org edited /PubSubHubbub (+655) "/* Testing */" (view diff)
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notizblog.org edited /PubSubHubbub (+8) "/* Arbitrary Content */" (view diff)
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@sandeepshetty Thanks you Google for reviving #rss/#atom. http://www.sandeep.io/102 #indieweb
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tommorris cracking good grumpery from marco: http://www.marco.org/2013/07/03/lockdown
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pdurbin tommorris: yup. linked earlier by sandeepshetty. good stuff
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www.sandeep.io edited /PubSubHubbub (+660) "Noted issue about there primarily being only one hosted hub" (view diff)
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neuro` Just one rethoric question: how do we login on sites providing indieauth if indieauth is down?
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sandeepshetty neuro`: I use persona on my site and it has the same problem.
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neuro` sandeepshetty: sites owner using indieauth should probably provide both client and server implementation to ensure a real decentralized system, but then it limits the use of indie auth to hardcore geks.
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neuro` geeks
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barnabywalters or just host their own instance of indieauth
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pdurbin is there a main instance of indieauth people are relying on always being up?
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barnabywalters indieauth.com
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pdurbin ok. yeah, that's... suboptimal
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sandeepshetty indieauth actually has two points of failure.
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tommorris you can run your own indieauth instance. the code is open source. indiewebcamp uses indieauth.com but there's no reason you can't run you rown
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neuro` tommorris: agree, and that's what I plan to do, BUT, it's another point that may prevent the spread of indie auth
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notizblog.org edited /PubSubHubbub (+114) "/* Issues */" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /GitHub (+6) "/* Porting to the IndieWeb */ activities" (view diff)
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tantek neuro` - IndieAuth is just one particular open source implementation (and service deployment) of Web Sign-in. The best implementation currently.
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tantek.com edited /silo (+85) "add a couple more" (view diff)
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tantek neuro` - more broadly speaking it's Web Sign-in we'd like to see spread
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tantek and indieauth is greatly helping with that
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tommorris emails theryanking asking to get the barcamp photo relicensed for use on wikipedia. :)
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tommorris now Flickr has been so helpfully redesigned, it uses infinite scrolling, which means I need infinite RAM and infinite time to load the oldest photo
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tantek tommorris - it's not infinite, it's just A LOT. eventually it does hit some pagination point.
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tommorris near-infinite ;)
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grawity infinite scrolling also means you need infinite time to reach the "privacy policy" and "contact us" links in the website's footer
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tommorris I tried to do that the other day on a site. couldn't ever get to the 'about' link
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tommorris which is a real shame if I wanted to send them an email or something
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neuro` tantek: agree for spreading Web Signin, but since we've been talking about removing SPOFs, lately
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tantek tommorris, email? ;)
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tommorris I know. e-fail.
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tommorris trust me, email is usually my method of last resort.
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neuro` I've spen the past 6 years in a company developing a product to eradicate email from the enterprise field. We've ben acquired by a company that trademarkeed "zero email company", and I've never been into that much mass mailings in my whole life.
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tantek neuro` lol
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tantek.com created /FFFFound (+286) "stub with description, example of a user's feed" (view diff)
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EHLOVader question on these updates which are stubs about other social networks
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EHLOVader are those things which have been integrated with the social network ideas for the open web?
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EHLOVader or just social networks you think would be worth it? or just a list of social networks for looking into ideas
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tantek feel free to document any silos you want to, especially if you can document how to get your data out
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tantek (e.g. exports, feeds)
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tommorris I should probably release my Tumblr code.
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tommorris s/release/finish/g :)
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Loqi tommorris meant to say: I should probably finish my Tumblr code.
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tommorris getting data out of Tumblr is pretty easy. no having to get API keys or OAuth tokens or anything
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tantek tommorris - hence it's a logical destination for PESETAS
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tantek.com edited /Tumblr (+218) "PESETAS" (view diff)
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tantek EHLOVader - go ahead and add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC-people
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EHLOVader loving the lurk
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EHLOVader need to setup my domain with all the stuff for authentication
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EHLOVader looking into that still
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EHLOVader what backend framework is most popular in here for the open web (either due to ease of use or larger supportive community)
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barnabywalters EHLOVader: I don’t think there is any one which is “most popular”
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EHLOVader yup
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EHLOVader that is like religion in most these channels, everyone has an opinion
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tommorris tantek: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=BarCamp&diff=562702503&oldid=562515394 ;)
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tantek tommorris man that's a rough photo :)
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tommorris.org edited /Tumblr (+316) "/* How to */ adding export" (view diff)
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@gcouprie http://indiewebcamp.com/databases-antipattern?utm_content=bufferaffc7&utm_source=buffer&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Buffer and now, I imagine the CMS managing files lists and folders instead of doing SQL. Bad performance, bad security.
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tantek.com edited /silo (+287) "encouragement to document silos that your friends use (thus POSSE candidate), or for documenting data export" (view diff)
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tantek LOL - one of the SQL holdouts.
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barnabywalters those utm URL params completely disrespect the content they’re attached to
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barnabywalters assuming it’s only ever going to be seen in one context
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tantek indeed. perhaps Loqi can be taught to strip them.
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Loqi woot!
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barnabywalters it would be nice to get some citations for the FAQ on that page — IIRC most of them came from IRC dicsussions
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tantek oh he's a consultant. Databases are very good to high paid consultants. :)
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tantek barnabywalters - sure, as they come. most of us have better things to do (build stuff) than continue to debunk bad ideas
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barnabywalters yeah, just like (bad) SEO people love schema — they get to write more lines of code so it looks like they’re doing something
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barnabywalters tantek: good point ;)
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tantek you too :)
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tommorris manages a database for a living at the moment. ;)
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tantek barnabywalters - it's worth documenting debunking of bad ideas if they end up being distracting in IRC
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tantek so eventually you can just send URLs to people instead of having to argue the same arguments.
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tantek saves us all time so we can focus on useful/constructive things
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tommorris see, I think the database trap is fixable in one way: a database that would require you to set up offsite backup before you can do ANYTHING
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tommorris like, it asks you for Dropbox or Amazon S3 credentials and runs automated backups
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tommorris which reminds me: need to set up a Postgres backup for tommorris.org
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tantek tommorris - you're welcome to build such a database to disprove the database-antipattern :)
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tommorris Amazon already have created one if you are in the enterprise market. I use it everyday: Redshift.
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tommorris it's perhaps overkill for a blog though.
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barnabywalters we just need to tell anyone who like DBs that the filesystem is actually a mature, robust, portable NoSQL key-value storage database with high-speed native drivers which come with every programming language
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barnabywalters and viewers/querying tools built into every operating system
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tantek barnabywalters - you should add that to the wiki page :)
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tantek.com edited /Flickr (+907) "add feeds examples from Flickr for export/PESOS purposes" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Tumblr (+203) "rm h1, expand dfn, add feeds section" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /Twitpic (+356) "stub with username re-use note, feed example" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /silo (+52) "/* Specialized Silos */ add Twitpic" (view diff)
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tantek anyone here who actually used Google Reader to subscribe to feeds from silos, please stub pages for those silos and add examples of feeds from them. I've documented the few silos I apparently had subs to feeds thereon.
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tantek cc: tommorris in particular
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tantek (since he noted how much he had in Google Reader)
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aaronpk barnabywalters: best description of a filesystem ever
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aaronpk catching up on logs, holy crap lots of midnight chatter!
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aaronpk looks like there was a huge netsplit. I imported all the logs from my IRC client
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Loqi IMPORTED ALL THE LOGS http://loqi.me/7_0
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tantek.com edited /Twitter (+484) "/* POSSE entire note to twitter */ expand description and explanation of permashortcitation" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /short-domains (+184) "related permashortcitations and permashortids, link to related Twitter POSSE advice" (view diff)
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tantek waits for Loqi to get his own indieweb site at loqi.me
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tantek so we can reply, favorite, etc. all his memes
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aaronpk oh dear
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tantek woot!
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Loqi yay!
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tantek see I think he wants it
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aaronpk maybe I can install idno for him
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tantek just saw melvster note about gnu being doomed because of adopting some ostatus OSS. that's about one of the dumbest things I've read about failure. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-07-03/line/1372837888
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tantek gnu social that is
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tantek since when has a random donation of OSS code been a good predictor of a "headstart"?
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barnabywalters I’m a little more confused by “he gave him a mug”
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tantek contrast that with how much progress has been made here in the indieweb community with so many people starting *their own implementations* first, and then looking to reuse just *bits and pieces* of code second
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aaronpk it was barnaby's php-mf2 parser that really got me off the ground though
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tantek aaronpk - you had *tons* working before that
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tantek for the comment stuff yeah
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tantek aaronpk - you even went through code rewrite iterations yourself!
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aaronpk i meant specifically in regards to the interop with other sites
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tantek this is ironic coming from an RDF/LD advocate: "bloated it full … protocols, … so complicated that everyone implments them a different way"
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tantek and yes, that (perhaps implicit) focus on "protocols first" is why you (the greater you of RDF/LD/FSW efforts) fail.
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tantek this is why it's so important that here in the indieweb we focus on UX first, which is one of the nice side-effects of selfdogfooding
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tantek selfdogfooding = it hurts everytime you look at your site and it looks ugly or awkward = you fix the UX of your site first, worry about protocols second.
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tantek is trying to figure out a way to capture this contrast in principles/priorities on the wiki
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tantek if someone has a suggestion (which might help educate newcomers to the community), please speak up!
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tantek aaronpk - yes, re: interop with other sites - agreed. however, note that you got to the much later after getting posting and POSSEing your own content working.
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tantek got to *that much later
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tantek capturing all our order-of-implementation success is important for helping newcomers who want to incrementally build / implement / deploy their own solutions
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tantek at least it seems that way - would appreciate benwerd's input on that (as a "newcomer" who is kicking butt)
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tantek aaronpk - also I'll point out that you've spent a bunch of time (early on) making your site, posts, etc. look quite nice - a very good UX
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tantek I think that's made a big difference
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tantek (still one of the cleanest/nicest reply-context and comment-display presentations I've seen - aaronpk)
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tantek (hoping to measure up to that once I've got mine implemented)
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tantek.com edited /WordPress (+365) "/* Problems */ note explicitly: Maintenance Vulnerability, and list the independents who's sites have been publicly hacked by spammers etc." (view diff)
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aaronpk thanks tantek!
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Demis Hi guys, I'm trying to implement web-login following the instructions on the indiewebcamp site. I added rel="me" to the relevant links on my site, and my site to twitter/github. When I try to login with my site on indiewebcamp indieauth comes back saying No rel="me" links were found on your site! When I open my site and view the code in firefox the rel="me" links are clearly visible though. Any ideas? My site is running on node.js/expres
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Demis s.
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tantek Demis - URL?
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aaronpk Demis: make sure you link to https://twitter and https://github not http
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aaronpk that's my guess without looking at your url
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Demis it's demisflanagan.com
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aaronpk tantek: suggestions welcome for wording: https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieAuth/issues/20
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Demis okay i'll try the https now thanks!
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Demis sweet the https worked! thanks so much :)
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aaronpk great!
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tantek aaronpk do we have an IndieAuth troubleshooting FAQ? the http vs. https thing should definitely be in there
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aaronpk funny, I don't think we do
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tantek.com edited /IndieMark (+924) "/* Level 1 */ update summary description to provide overview, explain, be more approachable, understand why" (view diff)
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aaronpk would probably be easiest to manage on the indiewebcamp wiki, although could do it as indieauth.com/troubleshooting or something
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tantek agreed with putting it on the indiewebcamp wiki
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tantek likely to be useful to troubleshooting other relmeauth / web sign-in implementations
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aaronpk true
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aaronpk oh and thanks for this: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-07-03/line/1372860545
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tantek of course! just recognize what's objectively obvious :)
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@benwerd Interesting post by @anildash on the golden age of RSS: http://dashes.com/anil/2013/07/the-golden-age-of-rss.html For markup for likes etc, see the #indieweb community.
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tantek.com edited /IndieMark (+132) "/* Level 2 */ general theme: posting replies on your own site" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /IndieMark (+139) "/* Level 3 */ general theme: receiving and displaying indieweb replies as comments on your posts in realtime" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /IndieMark (+187) "/* Level 4 */ general theme: support full CRUD for replies from indieweb sites and updates to comments presentation on your posts in realtime" (view diff)
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Demis I just came across the indiewebcamp site yesterday after searching decentralized social networks, is anyone here into that at all or could offer some suggestions? So far I've tried diaspora and tent status.
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bret tantek: just a followup, I was told to check out statusnet if I wanted to see what gnu social was about
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tantek Demis - perhaps you could describe your experiences with Diaspora and Tent and why you were unsatisfied with them
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tantek bret - not sure saying to check out project B if you're asking about project A is very helpful. sounds like you reached another conversational dead-end.
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bret yeah it was awkward
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bret oops
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Demis I wanted an implementation where the code runs on my own server and meshes with other servers running the same. I have tentd and status running on my server but wanted to see if there is anything else I could try before committing to integrating that fully
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tantek bret - because it sounds like the discussion channel is more of a "watching something on life-support" rather than active development type of thing.
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tantek Demis - you may want to read up on http://indiewebcamp.com/monoculture before looking for "code that *only* meshes with other servers running the same."
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Demis yes there are some good points on there
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Demis one thing I liked about tent is that it's aimed as being a protocol that apps can use
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Demis when I say the same, I mean any site capable of pulling content from my own. So the 'how' should be the same, the 'who' can be different, as long as my 'what' remains under my control.
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Demis You list Tent.io on the monoculture page, is that because of the limitations on the current client software base? It certainly would seem like a monoculture if nobody else elected to implement the protocol on their service (i.e. twitter).
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tantek it's because the Tent folks didn't bother to re-use existing working protocols, engage with existing healthy communities, and went down the path of solving it all themselves and expecting others to follow them (when they didn't bother to follow anyone else)
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Demis lol very true
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Demis so do you know of anyone doing that - reusing existing protocols with the community support?
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Demis I guess I got the feeling about tent that you describe above, hence my curiosity about what else is out there, even in the early stages.
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tantek.com edited /monoculture (+535) "/* Examples */ Common patterns among monoculture projects include..." (view diff)
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Demis I like the web-sign in approach, it would be great to have a social stream app running on my site, that other people can log into so that their own sites start pulling content when they view their stream.
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tantek Demis - you have found an entire community of people and various projects that work on reusing existing protocols, improving them when possible.
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started
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Demis when I found the site I wished I had found it before the 2013 camp :)
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Demis reading the POSSE page, makes an excellent point about staying in touch with current friends. That's definitely an issue I've seen with services like diaspora and tent.
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tantek Demis, it's ironic really, it's as if those other services somehow lost focus of the fact that being *social* means prioritizing staying in touch with current friends.
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Demis tentek interesting, tried logging in at http://tantek.com/falcon/ but got 'None of your providers are supported. Tried https://twitter.com/demisflanagan, https://github.com/demisflanagan.'
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tantek Denis - yes the relmeauth PHP lib I'm using there needs some updating :/
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tantek it's not nearly as robust / up to date as IndieAuth
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Demis ah okay
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tantek yes this is me saying someone else's code/project is better than the one I'm maintaining using :)
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Demis no worries :) Well thanks a lot for your help today, I'll keep reading up on the site and try out some of the content servers like p3k and falcon over the next while.
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tantek I'd say Storytlr and idno are worth checking out
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tantek they're fairly advanced IMO
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/projects
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aaronpk they are also pretty well packaged as something you can actually use, whereas p3k is not at all
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tantek certainly way more advanced than Falcon
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tantek also their maintainers/leads hang out here fairly often (eschnou and benwerd respectively)
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aaronpk when can we move idno from "experimental" to "production"? :)
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benwerd wakes up and waves
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tantek aaronpk I think that's benwerd's call
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benwerd aaronpk: when I ship it
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benwerd there's code out there, but I don't consider it shipped until there's an installer and documentation
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aaronpk ah cool
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benwerd although! it sounds like the second ever public install might be today
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tantek with Loqi?
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Loqi :)
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Demis thanks I'll check those out too!
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benwerd (there's already a private install in the wide, but this is the first third-party public site running it. unfortunately, running MongoDB turns out to be a bit of an obstacle)
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benwerd Demis: definitely get in touch if you're interested in / need help with idno
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Demis thanks benwerd I'll take a look and let you know
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www.sandeep.io edited /selfdogfood (+430) "Are there two dimensions to selfdogfooding?" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] http://www.sandeep.io/104 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-07-03/line/1372841352 (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://www.sandeep.io/105 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-07-03/line/1372835081 (webmention)
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aaronpk well now I need to show how many people have "liked" individual lines in IRC
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sandeepshetty melvster: what is this about timbl giving matt lee a mug? (http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-07-03/line/1372837806)
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sandeepshetty aaronpk: I'm just quoting them.. not liking...
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aaronpk oh yea true
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sandeepshetty but showing mentions for lines would be neat
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aaronpk of course now http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-07-03/line/1372837806 is mentioned by http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-07-03/line/1372888188
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aaronpk meta
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sandeepshetty I so want to hear about this mug... so I can make a post saying GNU Social failed despite Timbl giving Matt Lee a mug!
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sandeepshetty tantek: Don't remember how I landed here.. but still relevant: "A comment is a comment is a comment." -http://tantek.com/log/2003/01.html#L20030104t1249
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tantek my goodness you dug deep to find that!
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sandeepshetty tantek: and this http://tantek.com/exit.html :)
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tantek sandeepshetty - allow me to quote my 10 year ago self:
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tantek "I'd rather see folks write comments on their own blogs, or possibly in newsgroups, or some other place that is archived on the web. Just as I was encouraged, I encourage everyone who has something to say to start their own blog. "
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tantek :)
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sandeepshetty oh and "SSearch tantek.com using Yahoo! using AltaVista , using A9 :)
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tantek oh wow - and:
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tantek " I must ask - why is there any distinction in the presentation? I ask because many blogs present separate and different interfaces for their comments, trackbacks, and/or pingbacks. "
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sandeepshetty what is attention.xml ?
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tantek how/why did it take 10 years to fix this.
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tantek hahaha - attention.xml was a dumb idea
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sandeepshetty yep :)
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tantek sandeepshetty - seriously - HOW did you find that post? "Comment markup, presentation and plumbing " 2003-01-04
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tantek my blog archives before 2006 are noindex
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tantek so Google wouldn't have found it
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sandeepshetty I landed here first: http://tantek.com/log/2004/09.html#d30t1834
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sandeepshetty I don't remember how... and then I found the rest...
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aaronpk it's linked from http://microformats.org/wiki/posh actually
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tantek oh no sorry, my blog archives before *2004*. 2004 and later is indexed.
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sandeepshetty yeah I think I landed there from some reference to hcard or hcalender
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tantek oh look at that - back when I included select posts in a sidebar
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sandeepshetty and a blogroll and an orkut a/c lol
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tantek sandeepshetty - yes, welcome to the timecapsule of my blog archives - static HTML + CSS
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tantek aaronpk - a-ha - that makes more sense
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sandeepshetty there are lots of gems (links to other sites) on the page
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sandeepshetty http://www.glassdog.com/archives/2004/08/25/whats_wrong_with_feed_readers.html
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tantek hilarious!
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sandeepshetty "Why can't I synchronize state information to a server, so I can read feeds at home without having to re-read them the next morning at work? (Dear BlogLines users: shut up. Web apps suck.)"
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sandeepshetty lol
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aaronpk lol, should the IRC logs also send out webmentions?
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sandeepshetty send all the mentions! :p
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aaronpk that would be pretty funny
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aaronpk except I think it might result in some infinite loops
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sandeepshetty I have a note in my todo about webmention loops..
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sandeepshetty (to think about this)
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sandeepshetty but how would there be infinite loops?
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sandeepshetty (in this case)
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aaronpk well, if you link to a line in IRC, that creates a new IRC line since Loqi tells us about the link
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aaronpk so then that line would send out a mention back to your post
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aaronpk i guess it should stop there
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sandeepshetty yeah only people posting links should send webmentions
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aaronpk oh, the question is whether your site should send webmention notifications for comments it displays
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aaronpk for example, I should not send mentions to the three posts below mine here: http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2013/06/28/1/indieweb
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sandeepshetty that's the part that I have the todo for..
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sandeepshetty I think links added as a result of a webmention should not send webmentions themselves..
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aaronpk yes, that's what I was trying to say
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sandeepshetty I had the todo item in the context of comment propogation..
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sandeepshetty *propagation
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sandeepshetty but we skipped that for now so it should not be a problem http://indiewebcamp.com/comment-propagation
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tantek a webmention should only get sent if some sort of change occurred. e.g. something was created/posted, or updated, or deleted. :)
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pdurbin continues to happily /ignore Loqi ;)
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Loqi yeah!
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tantek interesting brainstorming at http://indiewebcamp.com/comment-propagation
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tantek I think we should seek to enable different user models
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tantek e.g. I know the slashdot/reddit potentially infinitely nested comment thread is a popular model among some programmers
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tantek however
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tantek I've come to prefer the FB style of 2 levels deep max
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tantek whereby you the post, and comments on the post, and comments on those comments, and that's it. everything else gets flattened up to the 2nd level of commets.
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tantek and ordered by time
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tantek (with shared 1st level comment parent/ancestor)
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sandeepshetty the only way to stop at 2 levels would be the person at the 2nd level to not accept any comments...
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sandeepshetty commenting is infinitely threaded by default using webmention+uf2
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sandeepshetty (the way to not accept comments is to not advertise a webmention endpoint for the comment permalink)
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sandeepshetty we decide to leave the presentation upto different impementations.. but the idea is that the it will follow the in-reply-to's and let you navigate the thread
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sandeepshetty *decided
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tantek sandeepshetty - right - it's at the presentation level
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tantek I think FB made a good UI judgment call
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sandeepshetty yep.. and we decided that we don't need the complicated stuff to propagate comments, etc.
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tantek I find the deeply nested comments hard to follow
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sandeepshetty it depends on how you present it..
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tantek I have yet to see *any* deeply nested presentation that is *not* hard to follow
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tantek so no, for now it doesn't depend at all - they all suck :/
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tantek also - I'd rather solve multi-replies myself rather than nested comments
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tantek but that's just me
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tantek aaronpk convinced me that multi-replies (and displaying them nicely) is worth solving
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sandeepshetty I'm not looking to implement multi-reply
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tantek so I'm saving multiple in-reply-to link per reply sometimes
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sandeepshetty it feels like a rare enough case (for me) that I won't implement it
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tantek right, it's a personal thing
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tantek aaronpk pointed out he and caseorganic do it all the time
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tantek and I found evidence that I'd done it in the past
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tantek and have started doing it more and more now that I POSSE thread my @-replies to twitter
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tantek I certainly create multi-replies FAR more often than *any* nested comments
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tantek so nested comments are kind of a meh use-case for me personally, but that's why we document what we're each trying to solve
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sandeepshetty I've been itching to do this for a long time: http://cafbit.com/entry/the_lost_art_of_threaded
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tantek it's ok (and good!) that we're working on solving different things
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hober multi-reply, in email, is basically the main reason i use gnus for mail
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sandeepshetty nested comments haven't been done right (tree navigation, tree visualization and branch management) since the usenet days (conversation centered vs content centered)
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sandeepshetty hober: what is multi-reply in email?
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tantek hober - can you share a screenshow of what a multi-reply in email looks like?
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sandeepshetty hober: do you mean a "very wide reply" (gnus term)
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sandeepshetty "The end" is a nice touch to the manual http://www.gnus.org/manual/big-gnus.html#SEC348