#indiewebcamp 2013-07-08

2013-07-08 UTC
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sandeepshetty if a large chuck of the comment is a tangent... wouldn't it make sense for it to be a mention? (should we encourage this practice?)
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sandeepshetty (maybe I'm understanding it wrong, are there any examples of this that I can see?)
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sandeepshetty and how often does it happen? (if it's a 20% case, should be account for it?)
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tantek sandeepshetty - all good questions
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tantek I think I have anecdotal memories of having written such replies myself
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@kevinmarks Two timely #indieweb posts for #July4th
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tantek aaronpk - Loqi tweet parsing problem? the archives only show the first line of @kevinmarks's tweet: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-07-07
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www.sandeep.io edited /multiple-reply (+328) "Added discussion section and asked about author UX flow." (view diff)
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www.sandeep.io edited /multiple-reply (+4) "/* Discussion */ fixed typo." (view diff)
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sandeepshetty tantek: sorry, did not understand if you agree with removing or want to keep it? (Re http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-07-07/line/1373241638)
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tantek sandeepshetty - neither, I'm thinking of moving it to just an idea/brainstorming possibility
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sandeepshetty (Y)
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tantek.com edited /multiple-reply (+226) "/* Discussion */ good enough for now" (view diff)
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www.sandeep.io created /SBCE (+1080) "Adding this to the wiki because every time I read the principles page and the point about diversity of approaches/implementations, I'm reminded of this." (view diff)
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www.sandeep.io edited /principles (+416) "(discussion section) There seems to be an unwritten principle of focusing on UX, should be make it explicit?" (view diff)
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www.sandeep.io edited /principles (+0) "/* Discussion */ Fixed typo" (view diff)
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www.sandeep.io edited /comments-presentation (+517) "(discussion section) Noted objection to accounting for long posts where only a part of it is in-reply-to another post." (view diff)
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tantek sandeepshetty - difference from SBCE - there is no "final solution"
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tantek in fact, that's true with anything on the web
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tantek the web is constantly evolving
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tantek if you ever think you've reached a "final solution" you've likely made a mistake
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sandeepshetty I think they use the term final to mean something that can ship at the time (like indie-comments for example), no car design if of course final, you always have the next design and so on...
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sandeepshetty (the customer needs and technology are also constantly evolving)
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tantek I dislike the "final" framing
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tantek for that reason
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tantek everything is alway just good enough for that day/week/month
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tantek also - I don't expect UI to converge
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tantek I expect UI to *diverge* even more as we both try different things and grow our community
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tantek and I think that's a good thing
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tantek it's a strength of the indieweb - we encourage continuing diversity of UI / presentation
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tantek those things don't need convergence
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tantek we should only converge where it is needed
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tantek formats & protocols - and I think we've been pretty good about that
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Loqi it is probable
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www.sandeep.io edited /deleted (+505) "/* No Plans To Implement */ Simple workaround to avoid 410, 404 and tombstoning. leads me to believe that update might be enough and we could skip the concept of delete altogether." (view diff)
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sandeepshetty I agree that "final" is a misnomer. Re UI converging: I think there are element that will converge like response counts, response details, etc.
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sandeepshetty and comment display
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sandeepshetty and POSSE links
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sandeepshetty One UI problem I'm facing at the moment.. is that as I follow comment threads (by following the in-reply-to) I have to reorient myself to each commenters site and "figure" out where the in-reply-to link is...
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sandeepshetty hopefully our implementations will eventually have thread-readers which will follow the in-reply-tos and present a better view on our own sites.
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www.sandeep.io edited /deleted (+17) "/* No Plans To Implement */ turned my comment into a discussion." (view diff)
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www.sandeep.io edited /comment (+168) "/* Update a comment */ Added note about moderating updates (if you are moderating new comments)" (view diff)
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www.sandeep.io edited /deleted (+0) "/* Discussion */ Fixed typo" (view diff)
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www.sandeep.io edited /deleted (+240) "/* Discussion */ Interestingly this (delete-workaround) also gives the commenter (content-owner) more control over explaining the intent of the delete." (view diff)
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pfefferle good morning
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pfefferle tantek: i have a mf2 question… i am implementing the reply context http://indiewebcamp.com/reply-context#Markup
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pfefferle is there any part in the mf2 spec that says the <div class="p-in-reply-to h-entry"> has to be inside the first h-entry or could it be also part of the p-content?
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pfefferle the parser supports does support the p-content part… but i am not sure if it is a bug or not
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www.sandeep.io edited /deleted (+590) "/* Discussion */ Added details of deleting non-comment responses using the workaround and converted to a list to facilitate discussion." (view diff)
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www.sandeep.io edited /deleted (-5) "/* Discussion */ Fixed Typo." (view diff)
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Loqi barnabywalters: aaronpk left you a message 11 hours, 58 minutes ago: thx for the idea of only showing errors if you're logged in, just implemented that in like 3 minutes
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pfefferle barnabywalters: have a question about mf2, your parser and the reply context markup
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barnabywalters pfefferle: fire away
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pfefferle does the p-reply have to be a root-node of the h-entry
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pfefferle or can it also be part of the e-content
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barnabywalters root node?
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barnabywalters ah okay
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pfefferle your parser supports both
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pfefferle but is it a bug or a feature?
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barnabywalters Yes, nested/child mf can be inside other properties
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barnabywalters it’s a feature
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pfefferle that means my reply context can be part of the e-content?
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barnabywalters but in this case (putting p-in-reply-to in e-* content) I wouldn’t recommend it — what are you trying to achieve?
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pfefferle :D
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pfefferle it's more a wordpress-problem
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barnabywalters because then when the reply gets syndicated back to the replied-to content, it’ll include the content again within the comment
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pfefferle yes
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pfefferle that's the negative part
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pfefferle hmmm
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barnabywalters which might work if it was a quoted excerpt, but would look weird for full reply contexts with author details and everything
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barnabywalters what exactly is the wordpress problem? do you have some example code?
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pfefferle yes, you are right… will try something different
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pfefferle the problem is, that i need a hook that's inside the h-entry, but not inside of a sub node
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pfefferle and i wanted to use wordpress' short codes for that and they only work inside the content
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pfefferle but i implemented the comment part
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pfefferle http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnotizblog.org%2F2013%2F06%2F18%2Fthe-rise-of-the-indieweb%2F
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pfefferle with threaded comment support
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barnabywalters pfefferle: nice work
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pfefferle thank's to your feedbck
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pfefferle s/feedbck/feedback
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Loqi pfefferle meant to say: thank's to your feedback
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pfefferle added the h-entry to a higher node for the single view
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pfefferle which also surrounds the comment part
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pfefferle was easier than thought ;)
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www.sandeep.io edited /deleted (+148) "/* Three Cases */ Possible solution for duplicate webmentions using rel="canonical"" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] http://notizblog.org/2013/07/08/die-renaissance-des-pingbacks/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/pingback (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://notizblog.org/2013/07/08/die-renaissance-des-pingbacks/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/responses (pingback)
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tantek pfefferle - looks like barnabywalters answered your question about uf2 and h-entry vs. nested reply-context information etc. anything outstanding?
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pfefferle no, everything clear now, thanks :)
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Loqi [mention] http://waterpigs.co.uk/articles/data-export/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/silos (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://waterpigs.co.uk/articles/data-export/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/export (pingback)
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barnabywalters ^ I wrote a thing
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tommorris giggles painfully at "As OPML is fairly standard"
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barnabywalters tommorris: yeah, I wasn’t sure about that but wanted to say *something* nice about it
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barnabywalters feed readers import it, right? or am I deluded?
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tommorris In a previous life I worked on OPML validation
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tommorris Sure, but there's some serious edge case issues
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barnabywalters it’s more tangible+useful than whatever the hell “chat.json” is
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tommorris Around OPML 1 vs 2, namespaced extensions, undocumented attribute values and so on.
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tommorris but yes, in general, it's fairly useful
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tommorris I found out that Wunderlist, the to-do list app I use, now lets you export JSON
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tommorris I saw them tweeting about how another to-do service was shutting down and you could "save" your stuff by importing it into Wunderlist
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@naraliyeva96 @t @julien51 #indieweb #July4th
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tommorris I was preparing to upbraid them for hypocrisy but then found they did a simple JSON export
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tommorris barnabywalters: I think Twitter's general approach is pretty good - having the data and having a built in HTML+JS viewer.
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tommorris it may not be perfect but I like the idea of having the viewer distributed with the data. makes it all the more time capsule compliant. because we're likely to have working browsers in twenty years time.
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tantek tommorris - agreed
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tantek reads barnabywalters's post on data-export
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tantek that's great about the #microformats 2 h-entry support in the Twitter export!
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tantek barnabywalters - did you add that to the h-entry page as an implementation?
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neuro` Good morning (ugt)
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barnabywalters tantek: yep http://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry#Examples_in_the_wild
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barnabywalters tommorris: agreed, twitter comes out on top of the silos I tried
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barnabywalters if they updated the readme and made the csv a little more useful it’d be really great
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@jaredhanson Any #indieweb solution that begins with "own your own domain" will not work. It's time we start thinking different. Discuss.
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barnabywalters huh
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JonathanNeal Anything going on with element queries?
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tantek JonathanNeal what's the indieweb use case?
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JonathanNeal use case: everybody and their mother wants to use element queries because media queries don't reflect elements within layouts.
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JonathanNeal I think of #indiewebcamp as a kind of "move the web forward" channel, but is that too broad?
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JonathanNeal tantek: if we're not testing this stuff on our own sites, then we'll never be willing to use them on clients sites.
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JonathanNeal or demanding it for our own sites
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tantek if there's no use case for our own sites, then why bother?
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tantek #indiewebcamp is very much a move the web forward channel, but not just any random brainfart proposals for moving the web forward. rather, we filter web advancements by the simple question of how does it help my personal website right now?
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JonathanNeal 1. brainfart assumes error
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JonathanNeal 2. random proposal assumes no conscious need
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JonathanNeal 3. it helps my personal website by allowing me to control how things look based on how much room there is
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JonathanNeal 4. there is no universal "right now", IE6 is right now for a lot of people, flexbox is right now for others.
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tantek re: 1. assumption of error of proposals is reasonable given the incredibly bad track record of w3.org/TR drafts as a whole, and IETF RFCs as a whole
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tantek 2. random proposal similar is a reasonable conclusion as while not literally random, the aforementioned specs often pursue a *theoretical* need rather than an actual real-world documented use-cases based need, and thus "random" is a reasonable adjective (theory without data/research might as well be random)
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tantek 3. if it helps your personal website, great, implement and deploy it!
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tantek 4. you're right that "right now" is in the eye of the personal website publisher
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neuro` I love your #2.
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Loqi i love me too
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neuro` Loqi: you talk too much.
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JonathanNeal re: #2 http://www.jonathantneal.com/blog/thoughts-on-media-queries-for-elements/
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neuro` On the same topic, http://indiewebcamp.com/antipatterns#mass_adoption (and for French speaking http://t37.net/le-piege-du-design-pour-les-masses-ou-pourquoi-faire-generique-ne-marche-pas.html)
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JonathanNeal tab thought they were worth talking about too http://www.xanthir.com/b4PR0
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JonathanNeal or rather he was pestered enough
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JonathanNeal Related: http://ianstormtaylor.com/media-queries-are-a-hack/
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@jaredhanson @haxor I think its worth considering that we may need an alternative to DNS to fully realize IndieWeb goals. /cc @shawndrape
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aaronpk methinks loqi should be putting the tweet permalinks in here
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aaronpk Loqi: fix it
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Loqi dude
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barnabywalters good evening indiewebcamp
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aaronpk good morning
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barnabywalters JonathanNeal: RE element-scoped media queries, I wanted to use them enough that I built them
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barnabywalters specifically, my use case was creating a “new note” dialog which could be reused in many different contexts
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JonathanNeal cool, got the implementation to share?
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barnabywalters JonathanNeal: the js is all messy because I made the mistake of using backbone, but it’s all out there
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barnabywalters essentially I use a combination of iframes and postMessage to create responsive UIs which can be embedded into other contexts or sites
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barnabywalters the iframes make a new browsing context with it’s own viewport
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barnabywalters and then postMessage lets the target know it’s not the primary browsing context, and it gets rid of thing like headers and footers
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barnabywalters actually it could all be made a lot better, but it was an interesting learning experience
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Loqi [mention] http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2013/07/08/4/indieweb linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/principles (webmention)
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aaronpk fun little thread going there ^
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aaronpk twitter still has the closest to the full conversation view: https://twitter.com/aaronpk/status/354339299321331714
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@aaronpk @jaredhanson The beautiful thing about the #indieweb movement is people are focusing on building for themselves... http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2013/07/08/4/indieweb
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barnabywalters reads
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barnabywalters anyone here come across namecoin/tried using it?
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aaronpk neat
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barnabywalters IIRC that works today
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aaronpk well POSSE/PESOS give us "backwards compatibility" with existing social networks today. is there something similar for .bit?
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barnabywalters isn’t .bit essentially that anyway? a bridge between current DNS and namecoin?
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tantek at lunch at the W3C Technical Plenary 1.5 years ago, in an discussion with TBL, we proposed a hypothetical .p TLD (to be purchased) that could be used for peer-to-peer DNS
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barnabywalters how is a TLD actually set up? who/what controls it?
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tantek having W3C or some similar body be the "registrar" for .p would be how you got backward compat with DNS
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barnabywalters you can run your own name servers right?
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tantek barnabywalters - TLDs are now up for sale at very high prices
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aaronpk yea, i've run a .haus domain for where I was living a few years ago
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barnabywalters tantek: yeah, but there’s someone controlling that who can add new ones arbitrarily
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barnabywalters or not…?
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barnabywalters ’s lower-than-HTTP level internet knowledge is sorely lacking
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tantek barnabywalters - exactly, or not arbitrarily, but rather according to a (hypothetical) peer-to-peer naming protocol
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tantek behind the scenes, you have no idea how the .p DNS servers work
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tantek they could be doing any kind of dynamic magic they please
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tantek this would let you give peer to peer named things actual URLs for back-compat
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tantek how does namecoin work with URLs?
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tantek anyway, like aaronpk said, not the highest priority for (most of?) us
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aaronpk tantek: this is not the first time someone has brought this up. we should probably address in the FAQ: https://twitter.com/jaredhanson/status/354341413267312640
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@jaredhanson @aaronpk and I love that! But for indieweb to become web, we'll also have to build for others.
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aaronpk the "build for others" part
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tantek it's in the anti-patterns
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/antipatterns#mass_adoption
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aaronpk yes, it's an anti-pattern to start building things for others. but eventually software will need to be built for others because not everyone will build stuff for themselves
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tantek his tweet also has an implied "at some point" - http://indiewebcamp.com/antipatterns#at_some_point
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tantek aaronpk - funny, (nearly) everyone seems to buy cell phone numbers for themselves without difficulty.
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aaronpk how is that analogous?
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tantek the point is that explicitly worrying this far in advance about "building for others" is just dumb framing
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tantek it's pointless handwaving
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tantek the "indieweb" is a tough enough problem space that right now the only people making conceptual progress in it are the people first building for themsevles
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tantek Jared's got a beautiful hCard on his home page: http://jaredhanson.net/
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tantek but he's not really actively building on his indieweb site… so… perhaps we should invite him to get started with doing so?
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barnabywalters goodnight all
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Loqi night
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bret Good afternoon #indiewebcamp
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bret catches up on the IRC logs since thursday
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bret tantek: are you still in portland?
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tantek I am!
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bret cool!
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bret are there any IW hack sessions in the works?
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tantek I could be up for some afternoon indieweb hacking before I head to the airport!
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bret aww dang, you are leaving today?
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bret what time are you out of here?
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aaronpk holy crap, just installed a TOTP authenticator app on my Pebble watch and used it to log in to IndieAuth
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bret !!
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bret thats unexpected
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aaronpk and awesome
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bret blog about that
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tantek aaronpk - that sounds amazing
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aaronpk doesn't even require an active network connection, my phone can be out of battery and it will still work
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bret you turned your watch into a key
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tantek that's kind of amazing
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tantek no need to wait for an SMS (insecure anyway)
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tantek bret - are you around downtown Portland?
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tantek I'm thinking of maybe heading to Backspace for a bit
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bret I am at PSU, so just south of downtownwn
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bret tantek: how much time do you have left, I can probably make it out there by 3:30ish
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tantek bret I probably need to get going by ~17:00
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tantek so 15:30 sounds good for an afternoon coffee + snack
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tantek and some indieweb hacking :)
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bret oh yeah
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bret aaronpk: you around to come by?
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aaronpk i'm in San Diego
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bret doh
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bret who else might be around?
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tantek wow - amazingly long Wikipedia article behind today's Google doodle
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@t Ask not what the #indieweb can build for you or others — ask what you can create for your own indieweb site. (ttk.me t4Qu3)
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@CalebJenkins RT @t: Ask not what the #indieweb can build for you or others — ask what you can create for your own indieweb site. (ttk.me t4Qu3)
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@t Ask not what #indiewebcamp will do for you, but what together we can create for the freedom of the web.
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tantek aaronpk - that's my use of a quote per your discussion this morning.
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aaronpk what was I talking about?
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tantek you and jared
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aaronpk ah yes
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aaronpk perfect
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tantek hmm … what happens if I happen to embed h-event markup inside a note....
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aaronpk heh... happens where?
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tantek in Falcon :)
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tantek and it looks like the answer is it breaks my site
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tantek no it did eventually load. wow
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tantek is my site slow for anyone else?
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@t Portland friends, doing one last coffee &amp
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Loqi snack meetup / #indieweb hack session 15:30 today at Backspace: backspace.bz (ttk.me t4Qu5)
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aaronpk this took like 9 seconds before i started getting content http://tantek.com/2013/189/t5/portland-coffee-indieweb-hack-session-backspace but now it's back to normal
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tantek probably just a shared server hickup
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bret tantek: not particularly
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tantek cool thanks. looks like Falcon ignores the extra markup because it's a note. The h-event markup didn't make it through to the permalink.
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bret are you displaying RSVPs now?
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@santialaise RT @t: Portland friends, doing one last coffee &amp
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Loqi snack meetup / #indieweb hack session 15:30 today at Backspace: backspace.bz (ttk.me t4Qu5)
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tantek bret - no, I'm still working on doing "proper" reply support including auto-detected POSSE threading
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tantek and better reply-context: details: http://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon#Working_On
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bret ill check it out
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bret I'm almost to displaying ping back.me data
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bret pignback.me*
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+102) "/* Post Types */ note replies show minimal reply-context" (view diff)
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bret Ok, I'm going to head over to backspace now
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tantek heading over to backspace...
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julien51 aaronpk yt?
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aaronpk hey
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julien51 May I show you something?
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aaronpk sure, may have to run in a second though
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julien51 ok, see notifix who just joined the room? That's a RSS -> IM bot supporting both XMPP and IRC
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aaronpk oh nice!
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julien51 now, it will make it easy to test PuSH installs :)
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julien51 +subscribe http://push-pub.appspot.com/feed
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notifix You were successfully subscribed to http://push-pub.appspot.com/feed
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notifix Publisher example: Hello Aaron!
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notifix http://push-pub.appspot.com/entry/963020
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julien51 the last 2 lines have been posted on http://push-pub.appspot.com/
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aaronpk that's awesome
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bret julien51: i found a project that can provide an adequate solution to the github pages web hook problem
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julien51 +list
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notifix Here is the list of your subscriptions:
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notifix http://push-pub.appspot.com/feed
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julien51 +unsubscribe http://push-pub.appspot.com/feed
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julien51 I'll let you guys play with your own installs too
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julien51 ha, it looks like there is a small bug in unsubscribe
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julien51 let me fix that
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julien51 bret: awesome! Let me know more by email if you can :)
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bret ok! its just a simple way to send update notifications that was originally a work around for a different problem, but we figured we could add a parameter to delay incoming updates for a moment until github works out their issue
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julien51 aaronpk: the notifix bot also support direct messages… if you don't want to bother everyone in he room with subscriptions and notifications :)
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aaronpk awesome
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aaronpk is the source up somewhere? would love to poke at it
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aaronpk must be this https://github.com/julien51/notifix
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julien51 aaronpk: exactly!
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julien51 aaronpk: but it needs a lot of love
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julien51 please don't advertise it yet!
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aaronpk haha ok
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julien51 I wanted to share it because it could help people ty out their Push installs
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julien51 +list
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julien51 and I have to check with nodejitsu if it can run reliably there too
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@aira_kimie RT @t: Portland friends, doing one last coffee &amp
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Loqi snack meetup / #indieweb hack session 15:30 today at Backspace: backspace.bz (ttk.me t4Qu5)
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@aira_kimie RT @t: Ask not what #indiewebcamp will do for you, but what together we can create for the freedom of the web.
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julien51 +list
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julien51 +join #indiewebcamp
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julien51 +unsubscribe http://push-pub.appspot.com/feed
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notifix You were successfully unsubscribed to http://push-pub.appspot.com/feed
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julien51 +list
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notifix You are not subscribed to any feed at this point.
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julien51 ok, folks, good night!
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aaronpk goodnight! great work!
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Loqi sleep tight!
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Loqi gute nacht!
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tantek julien51, by "please don't advertise it yet!", do you mean http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-07-08/line/1373323772 ?
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tantek bret - http://indiewebcamp.com/Events
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tantek brainstorming purely clientside webmentions with bret
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tantek could be doable with a webmention proxy
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tantek to workaround cross-domain limitations
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tantek e.g. a script src="url to webmention proxy, with params of webmention target, webmention source"
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tantek and then webmention proxy would actually do the webmention to the target (via endpoint discovery, just as usual)
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tantek and then return the webmention result as JSON
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tantek to the calling/embedding page
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chloeweil.com created /User:Chloeweil.com (+158) "Created page with "<div class="vcard"> <a class="url fn" href="http://chloeweil.com">Chloe Weil</a> <a class="email" href="mailto:me@chloeweil.com">me@chloeweil.com</a> </div>"" (view diff)
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@t #IndieWeb Creators: email hhalpin@w3.org TODAY and join @W3C #SocialWeb workshop 2013-08-07…08 in SF. More: http://tantek.com/2013/189/t6/indieweb-creators-today-join-w3c-socialweb-workshop-sf
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