#indiewebcamp 2013-08-28

2013-08-28 UTC
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tantek benwerd - there was an interesting discussion in here yesterday with ScottJenson about federation, ux, etc.: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-08-25#t1377474011
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benwerd tantek - ooh, thanks for the link
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tantek I'm still trying to go through that discussion and see where we can improve resources on indiewebcamp.com to more quickly answer questions and respond to misconceptions, whether deliberate or unintentionally propagated misframings.
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tantek it seems there's still a lot of misfocus (misdirection?) around "federation"
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benwerd That whole conversation is really interesting. Particularly wrt Camlistore as the most promising building block - I wonder if that was colored by the coverage it got in the Wired writeup?
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tantek indeed.
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tantek "most promising building block" - for what?
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tantek I didn't see anyone ask that question
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tantek nor ask: how is it useful for what you want to do *next* on your *own site*?
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benwerd "entirely new collection/storage/sharing apps" - so nothing to do with your own site at all
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benwerd or tangentially, anyway
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tantek yeah - tangentially = misfocus
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benwerd agree (although interesting in its own right, as part of a different discussion)
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tantek there are more things interesting in their own right than we have life to discuss them all. hence, as mortals, we must prioritize somehow.
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benwerd :)
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benwerd absolutely. and I do see the potential for the federalization stuff to derail the actual focus on the indie web.
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tantek benwerd - I think selfdogfood and UX first provide a sufficient immunity against such derailment.
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benwerd agree again.
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tantek or rather even if any one individual is derailed by federalization stuff, as long as individuals we keep a selfdogfood and UX first focus on/in our own implementations, we shouldn't be impacted.
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benwerd well, and that's the "indie", right? everyone gets to own their own space and decide what their focus is
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benwerd independent individuals owning their presence.
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tantek benwerd, indeed - that "indie" aspect is key, and is the inverse of the "monoculture" of other efforts.
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benwerd nods
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benwerd and that's where I fundamentally disagree with the assertion in that conversation that no great strides have been made here
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benwerd a bunch of platforms owned by individuals have organically begun to intercommunicate
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benwerd that's not small.
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tantek everytime someone sharecrops that "no great strides have been made" - I presume they're only projecting their own status.
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benwerd I think it's much harder to see the potential if you're not running your own indieweb site. And hopefully over time, people will find it easier to do so.
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tantek also - everytime we do get some public or high-visibility recognition for our "great strides", there will be backlash of this sort
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tantek and it's ok if people not running their own indie site are critical - their criticisms cannot slow down those of us making actual progress
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benwerd that's also true. It's not something I'd be worried about. In general, if people are criticizing, you're probably doing something right.
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tantek that was one of the problems of both FSWS2010 and Open Web Foo 2010 - we let too many people who were not running their own site dominate the conversations
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tantek it's why aaronpk and I deliberately framed IndieWeb and IndieWebCamp as we did
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tantek it was deliberately exclusionary to filter out unproductive people - no matter how good their intentions
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tantek and we let people self-select their unproductivity - either they're getting things done on their own site, or they're not.
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tantek builders vs. talkers
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benwerd I actually find this a challenge in both day job work and communities like this: finding ways to limit the conversation so that it can evolve productively. and more and more, I find myself limiting participation as a result. Totally get why you guys did that.
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tantek creators vs. emailers
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benwerd and it can also be a motivating factor for talkers to become builders.
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tantek yes, either it pushes talkers to become builders, or it makes them resentful and they continue sharecropping their complaints on silos
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tantek thus we end up braindraining the silos of actual builders, and silos are left with just talkers
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benwerd honestly, my take is to just keep building.
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tantek it's a good take :)
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tantek I do feel it is worth spending some time fighting off the discouraging words of those who would bring down builders.
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tantek hence time spent documenting all this on the wiki
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tantek hopefully the wiki also serves to convert more talkers into builders
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benwerd And I think if we're loud with our own sites about why we're doing what we're doing, and how
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tantek you said yourself how much it helped you to see the things we'd documented on the wiki so you could code them :)
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benwerd it's both motivating and informational.
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benwerd yep, definitely
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benwerd alright. I've got to go find the ingredients for a different kind of building before the Berkeley Bowl shuts
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benwerd have a good evening :) You'll probably see some updates from me later relating to this ;)
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@profilsexe RT @t: Best social web news today: @AppDotNet supports h-entry h-card rel=me #microformats2! http://blog.app.net/2013/08/07/response-to-brennan-novak-part-ii/ #osfw3c (ttk.me t4RQN) (twitter.com/_/status/372547922787041280)
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tantek.com edited /2013/UK (+195) "add Terms and Conditions May Apply Film Screening nearby to IndieWebCampUK 2013" (view diff)
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tantek !tell benwerd I'm looking at adding web actions to my notes to simulate Twitter like buttons (favorite, retweet, reply) - have you considered doing so for your notes?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek.com edited /webactions (+785) "/* clientside conditionals */ clientside conditional web actions progressive enhancement of rel-syndication links" (view diff)
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tantek !tell benwerd here's where my thinking on web actions has led me (writing down what I think makes sense to implement just before implementing) http://indiewebcamp.com/webactions#clientside_conditionals
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek Loqi?
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tantek ok thanks Loqi
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Loqi you're welcome
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aaronpk `sudo rm -rf *`
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aaronpk seems safe
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aaronpk I always forget that I have mega caching turned on in mediawiki and need to delete the cache after making changes to the template
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aaronpk !tell tantek what is the main benefit for doing the conditional client-side rather than server-side? (re: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-08-27/line/1377659573)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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Loqi tantek: aaronpk left you a message 11 minutes ago: what is the main benefit for doing the conditional client-side rather than server-side? (re: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-08-27/line/1377659573)
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tantek aaronpk - other than first sentence of that section in the wiki? "… because non-JS useragents certainly do not care about silo buttons. "
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aaronpk yes, because doing it client-side may make the buttons load even slower
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/webactions#clientside_conditionals
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aaronpk so it's a trade-off, and if there are other benefits to doing it client-side it may outweigh the drawbacks
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tantek yeah - there may be other advantages as well, like flexibility to introduce other conditions
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tantek e.g. if it's a "slow connection" (like most mobile), then don't load the 3rd party scripts at all.
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tantek or for privacy
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tantek will think about it some more
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Jihaisse hello
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pfefferle good morning
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melvster federation was just poorly implemented
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melvster too much ostatus style, not enough indieweb style ... actually i said similar things before and someone pinged me about it yesterday, we had a chat about federation, and they are going to make their system more indie web like (hopefully) ie to drive interop through a profile page
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melvster they came across the IRC logs here and wanted to ask more about it :D
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melvster and this came after another implementation asked the same thing about 4 hours before ... on top of that diaspora wanted to collaborate with other social networks, so federation might just come together after all
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@devseo Decentralized comments and the IndieWeb - http://benwerd.com/2013/07/01/decentralized-comments-and-the-indieweb/ (twitter.com/_/status/372632645832036352)
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michalstefanow.com edited /2013/UK (+429) "/* Creators */ Added myself :)" (view diff)
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@stefek99 No way! @ladygaga is in town :) Go indie: http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK/Guest_List#RSVP :) (twitter.com/_/status/372635620734033920)
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barnabywalters !tell tantek RE rel following/follower (sorry, I was at a hackerspace and got distracted): In an indieweb context rel=follower is unlikely to be easily verifiable or at all accurate, rel=following might be more useful. What does it mean, though? That I read their content daily/hourly/in real time?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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Loqi gjones: tantek left you a message on 8/26 at 12:21pm: would be great if http://microformat2-node.jit.su/?url= could pretty-print the JSON output similar to http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fpeople%2Fglennjonesnet
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@BarnabyWalters @aral see also http://indiewebcamp.com/original-post-discovery (http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4RkDRx/) (twitter.com/_/status/372711655765180416)
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Loqi [mention] http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4RkDRx/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/original-post-discovery (pingback)
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hublog.hubmed.org edited /2013/UK (+432) "/* Creators */" (view diff)
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barnabywalters !tell tantek your notes u-syndication links don’t work with the current strict original-post-discovery algorithm due to being http:// instead of twitter’s canonical https:// — should the algorithm be so strict?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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barnabywalters I got a basic implementation of original-post-discovery working at http://waterpigs.co.uk/services/original-post?url=https://twitter.com/aaronpk/status/327650491876130816
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@aaronpk A demonstration of Original Post Discovery http://indiewebcamp.com/original-post-discovery #indieweb https://vine.co/v/bP9J7xDTEaV (http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2013/04/25/1/original-post-discovery)
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barnabywalters next up: connect it to my posting UI, improve syndicated replies
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pfefferle barnabywalters you should also support tanteks format (with a whitespace instead of the "/") https://twitter.com/t/status/369940040010727424
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@t @jddunn, http://jareddunn.org looks nice.
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barnabywalters pfefferle: I do, he doesn’t link to the https version of the tweet on his website
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barnabywalters I could always make the test less strict
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pfefferle ah ok
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pfefferle sorry
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barnabywalters np :)
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pfefferle :)
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barnabywalters I also don’t support the rel-canonical and u-url versions either yet, need to add those
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barnabywalters after that’s done, next endpoints are author discovery and profile -> canonical profile
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barnabywalters much like identengine.com but will do less and be much faster
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pfefferle by rel-me and rel-author?
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barnabywalters pfefferle: yep, and the equivalents scraped from other sites e.g. twitter
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barnabywalters so, say I want to convert an @name into a nicer h-card
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pfefferle (Y) nice!
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barnabywalters I don’t have to do complex rel-me crawling, the twitter.com/name page will give me everything I need
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barnabywalters then i can add that info to my contacts list and do a proper crawl later
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barnabywalters might also look at flickr POSSE of posts with photos in too…
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pfefferle @pfefferle -> look at the h-card of http://twitter.com/pfefferle and use the p-name for the post?
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barnabywalters pfefferle: yep, use the name and url from twitter, then crawl for more h-card details async
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barnabywalters identengine.com is an amazingly complete crawler, just *really* slow
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pfefferle i know
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pfefferle and webfinger isn't working well
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barnabywalters mainly ignores webfinger
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pfefferle ;)
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barnabywalters currently the only reason I’d implement it is to interop with pump.io which I think uses it
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pfefferle i think so too
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barnabywalters but I’d rather lobby evanpro to support urls as identity if I can :)
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pfefferle as federated identifier
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pfefferle username@domain
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pfefferle so, time to go home…
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pfefferle bye bye
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Loqi tantek: barnabywalters left you a message 6 hours, 23 minutes ago: RE rel following/follower (sorry, I was at a hackerspace and got distracted): In an indieweb context rel=follower is unlikely to be easily verifiable or at all accurate, rel=following might be more useful. What does it mean, though? That I read their content daily/hourly/in real time?
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Loqi tantek: barnabywalters left you a message 1 hour ago: your notes u-syndication links don’t work with the current strict original-post-discovery algorithm due to being http:// instead of twitter’s canonical https:// — should the algorithm be so strict?
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tantek barnabywalters - following just means reading - no implications about time, nor comprehensiveness
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tantek good FAQ though
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tantek barnabywalters - re: twitter's canonical https - back when I made most of those tweets - it was http - so what's the expectation, that I go back and update past rel-syndication links when a silo switches from http to https?
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tantek Might be better to allow a redirect there
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tantek seems more web architecture friendly
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barnabywalters agreed. I’ll add it to the algorithm
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tantek and ok since it's just a permalink to content rather than sign-in related (why we don't allow http to https switches in indieauth)
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tantek ok cool
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barnabywalters is liking the new IWC wiki tools at the top
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tantek too.
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tantek is thinking about using Twitter for comments on posts for non-indieweb-types.
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barnabywalters editing+logging in is two keystrokes easier now
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barnabywalters tantek: I got half way through implementing that at one point, I should revisit it
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tantek barnabywalters - I'm thinking it might need reverse-syndication (AKA backfeed) to really complete it.
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /original-post-discovery (+66) "/* Algorithm */ added note about https? protocol independence when confirming original post discovery" (view diff)
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tantek I think it's reasonable to limit comments to 140 characters (or less including the @mention) for non-indieweb folks.
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barnabywalters tantek: indeed. now the php-mf2-shim is working better with twitter parsing it shouldn’t be so tricky
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tantek right, we have more building blocks now that should lower the barrier
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barnabywalters IIRC the wall I ran into last time was trying to overcomplicate things by making it look like twitter was sending webmentions — this time I’ll do the quick and dirty route
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tantek barnabywalters - do we really want to match independent of protocol, or just follow redirects?
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tantek (latter seems more robust, as silos sometimes move permalinks slightly)
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barnabywalters hm, maybe so.
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tantek and it will handle the http->https case
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barnabywalters sure, and things like twitter/user/status /statuses
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tantek barnabywalters - similarly with webmention details
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#Implementation_Notes
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tantek specifically: http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#checking_target_validity
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tantek speaking of which
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tantek aaronpk - how is your support for receiving webmentions to your shortlinks?
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /original-post-discovery (-11) "/* Algorithm */ clarified details of original post syndication verification" (view diff)
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barnabywalters a shared cache of what any given URL redirects to would be handy for this sort of thing, as well as short url expansion
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tantek barnabywalters - looks good
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barnabywalters thanks. once I’ve implemented it fully I’ll release it as a package
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tantek.com edited /original-post-discovery (+46) "see alsos" (view diff)
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@julieryan18 RT @gaelynnwoods: Is bigger always better? With regards to #books, of course... Chime in on THE BIG HEAT: http://gaelynnwoods.blogspot.com/2013/08/does-size-matter-sorry-all-you-sex.html #indieauth… (twitter.com/_/status/372761356316860416)
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tantek "#indieauth…" :P
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@authoress_cj RT @gaelynnwoods: Is bigger always better? With regards to #books, of course... Chime in on THE BIG HEAT: http://gaelynnwoods.blogspot.com/2013/08/does-size-matter-sorry-all-you-sex.html #indieauth… (twitter.com/_/status/372761576417132547)
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barnabywalters argh
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barnabywalters how come it always truncates at *just* the right point
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tantek (ditto)
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tantek barnabywalters - it doesn't - we see only the one where it happens to truncate at just the right point.
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tantek s/one/ones
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Loqi tantek meant to say: barnabywalters - it doesn't - we see only the ones where it happens to truncate at just the right point.
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barnabywalters there are a great many of them
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tantek (observer bias)
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@RichWeatherly43 RT @kennhoss: Summer have you sweltering? Check out some great #books on the Independent Author Network - http://www.independentauthornetwork.com/kenneth-hoss.html #indieauth… (twitter.com/_/status/372771216387747840)
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@dellasm RT @kennhoss: Summer have you sweltering? Check out some great #books on the Independent Author Network - http://www.independentauthornetwork.com/kenneth-hoss.html #indieauth… (twitter.com/_/status/372772839411429376)
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tantek.com edited /original-post-discovery (+7) "/* Algorithm */ clarify redirect" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /webactions (+942) "/* clientside conditionals */ more advantages" (view diff)
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tantek barnabywalters - it would be great for all these shims to have simple web UIs with URL fields where you could check results
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tantek e.g. to see what original-post-discovery does when given a tweet URL or other
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tantek !tell barnabywalters - it would be great for all these shims to have simple web UIs with URL fields where you could check results. e.g. to see what original-post-discovery does when given a tweet URL or other
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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neuro` Hello
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@IndieAuthorSrv RT @IndieWriteNet: Review the Reviewer – a Writer’s (and Reader’s) guide to Book Reviews | Eric J. Gates- http://traffic.shareaholic.com/e/?u=http://indiewritenet.com/writersguide/2012/05/31/review-the-reviewer-a-writers-and-readers-guide-to-book-reviews/&r=1&a=1&s=7&f=3122983 #indieauth… (twitter.com/_/status/372808283175661568)
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aaronpk I wonder if I can make it exclude certain terms
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bret is twitter screwed up for anyone else right now?
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@xtof_fr #HeaveHo party @agence50A (Paris) Friday 2013-08-30T19:30 #LeBateau #indiewebcamp #brighton #UK #rsvp http://mydatalabs.com/Heave-ho#pitch or DM. (twitter.com/_/status/372813791857082368)
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Loqi [mention] http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2013/08/28/1/boarding-pass-redesign linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths (webmention)
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@trieloff No More Sharecropping! https://medium.com/indieweb-thoughts/9d0e36524dbf?utm_content=buffer04bf6&utm_source=buffer&utm_medium=appdotnet&utm_campaign=Buffer (twitter.com/_/status/372827826434891777)
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@aaronpk @oscargodson Also see: https://medium.com/indieweb-thoughts/9d0e36524dbf (http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2013/08/28/2/) (twitter.com/_/status/372831713354723328)
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aaronpk for the logs' sake, https://twitter.com/oscargodson/status/372832468094570496
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@oscargodson @aaronpk That's a totally different topic :) but I've replied to this many times and why I wrote: https://medium.com/writers-on-writing/9ad16e70af15
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@aaronpk @oscargodson fair, and I want to write a thorough response on how @medium could become more indieweb friendly... http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2013/08/28/3/indieweb-medium (twitter.com/_/status/372833692109922304)
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Loqi [mention] http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2013/08/28/3/indieweb-medium linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/friendly (webmention)
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tantek good afternoon #indiewebcamp!
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tantek catches up on logs for today.
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tantek bret - I thought you didn't use Twitter ;) re: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-08-28/line/1377720653
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bret I still read stuff thats on it sometimes
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bret it it working for you?
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tantek I mean, I can view my home page, and favorite tweets. haven't tried posting yet.
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tantek ooh - in-stream reply-contexts are back!
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tantek bret - interesting: https://twitter.com/veen/status/372842227195580419
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@veen We have a Twitter stream on a screen and it was all messed up and I asked why and someone just said, "Syrian Army." World is weird now.
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bret yeah raw html is what I was getting
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bret tantek: super weird
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bret tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 15 karma
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tantek.com edited /Instagram (+157) "add Downtime section with screenshot from Twitter" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Instagram (+69) "/* Instagram */ note video posts added in 2013" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Twitter (+189) "/* Downtime */ 2010-11-04 "Twitter server is down or being upgraded."" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Twitter (+192) "/* Downtime */ add live downtime report link, gigagom article 2012" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Flickr (+213) "add Downtime section" (view diff)
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tantek bret - next time you see a problem on Twitter, grab a screen capture of your browser window with the problem, upload to indiewebcamp.com, and add it to the top of http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#Downtime
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Loqi barnabywalters: tantek left you a message 5 hours, 33 minutes ago: - it would be great for all these shims to have simple web UIs with URL fields where you could check results. e.g. to see what original-post-discovery does when given a tweet URL or other
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tantek barnabywalters - also, looks like Twitter's in-stream reply-contexts are a live feature for everyone now: https://about.twitter.com/products/conversations
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barnabywalters tantek: RE UIs: of course :)
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barnabywalters RE in-stream replies: ooooh
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barnabywalters argh background
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tantek I've taken a few screenshots today which I need to upload - but their "blog post" has a broader explanation
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barnabywalters I wonder if any improved threaded tweet data will be available in the API
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tantek they've changed it in interesting ways from my earlier screenshots
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barnabywalters which would make backfeed *way* easier