#indiewebcamp 2013-08-29

2013-08-29 UTC
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barnabywalters although, now we have the mf2 shim, that is easy anyway
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barnabywalters because they show reply tweets in static HTML on permalink pages
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barnabywalters user needs > snowflake API BS
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tantek indeed, especially snowflake API TOS BS
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tantek barnabywalters - someone else had the same complaint you did (about Twitter's in-stream reply-chains) https://twitter.com/sixfoot6/status/372830486285918208
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@sixfoot6 Oh man, Twitter web is inverting tweet order of back-to-back conversations and grouping with a pink line? More UX that's opaque to n00bs.
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barnabywalters good to know it’s not just me
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tantek trying to figure out the best way to document this - I don't want to gum-up the reply-context page any more
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barnabywalters I think my in-stream reply contexts work better because there is clear visual separation between each note
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tantek thinking it might need it's own page
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tantek its
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barnabywalters also probably because I only show one reply at the moment
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barnabywalters tantek: a page about stream directionality?
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tantek not that specific ;)
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barnabywalters actually, pagination directionality is a pet peeve of mine
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tantek a page about Twitter's in-stream reply contexts
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tantek I agree about pagination directionality and pet peeve :)
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barnabywalters Tumblr insists time goes the opposite way to everyone else
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tantek http://tantek.com/2011/102/t2/navigation-arrows-back-past-forward-future-ui-pattern
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barnabywalters lol
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barnabywalters quoted+bookmarked
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tantek :)
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tantek unfortunately Tumblr is not alone in the "« Previous" = future and "Next »" = past anti-pattern.
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tantek probably worth documenting
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tantek Flickr makes the same error
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barnabywalters actually I saw a hilarious one earlier today — looked like this: Previous -> <- Next
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barnabywalters ????
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tantek go to anyone's photo page on Flickr and once you finish scrolling to the "bottom" (lots of photos load as you scroll) ...
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tantek then you'll see:
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tantek on Flickr: "← prev" = future, and "next →" = past
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barnabywalters I avoid the problem in-stream by using <- Older Newer ->
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tantek nice
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bret.io uploaded /File:Screen_Shot_2013-08-28_at_5.12.26_PM.png "Added picture of screwed up images. Unfortunately, missed the raw HTML."
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bret.io edited /Twitter (+431) "/* Downtime */ Added info about todays tiwtter issues." (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2013/UK (+126) "note capacity 30, must sign-up on guest list. only 12 spots left!" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2013/UK (+52) "/* Guest List */ note 1 more attending than listed from organizers (ahem, adactio) ;)" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2013/UK (+68) "add explicit "who" to the list at the top, nearby events header for referencing" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2013/UK (-28) "/* Organizers */ tighten up the organizers list to one line" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /reply-context (+407) "/* Twitter home page */ feature has shipped, need to move this section to a new page, leave mini explanation behind" (view diff)
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tantek good evening #indiwebcamp!
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neuro` Good morning
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tantek :)
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neuro` I actually woke up 3 minutes ago :)
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tantek I'm thinking of starting a "challenges" page documenting some of the challenges the indieweb faces in its current state. What do others think?
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tantek Is that worth documenting?
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tommorris tantek: that sounds reasonable
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tantek.com created /challenges (+805) "stub with why" (view diff)
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@thib39 RT @MyDataLabs: 1° projet de rentrée pour l'association : traverser la manche pour rejoindre le mouvement #indieweb #ownyourdata http://t.c… (twitter.com/_/status/372991836828078080)
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tantek interesting, this medium post has been deleted: https://medium.com/surveillance-state/19a5db211e47
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tantek no mention of by whom, or why
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tantek was part of this post: http://tantek.com/2013/191/t1/why-not-post-on-medium-ownyourdata (2nd link)
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tantek haven't done any forensics / archive.org searching yet to see what
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tantek tons of mentions of the post: https://www.google.com/search?q=https%3A%2F%2Fmedium.com%2Fsurveillance-state%2F19a5db211e47
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glennjones.net edited /2013/UK (+1067) "Updated Questions for Organizers" (view diff)
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glennjones.net edited /2013/UK (-1) "/* Questions for Organizers */" (view diff)
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@aral Folks, I know it’s a UX nightmare at the moment but please sign up on the Wiki, not Lanyrd, to attend Indie Web Camp: http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK (twitter.com/_/status/373047653984403456)
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@tistre “visible data for humans first, machines second / code composed of pieces you can swap out” @indiewebcamp principles: http://indiewebcamp.com/principles (twitter.com/_/status/373051201665114112)
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paulrobertlloyd.com edited /2013/UK (+503) "/* Creators */" (view diff)
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paulrobertlloyd.com edited /2013/UK (+5) "/* Creators */" (view diff)
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paulrobertlloyd.com edited /2013/UK (+0) "/* Creators */" (view diff)
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gjones !tell tantek updated parser it now indents JSON http://microformat2-node.jit.su/?url=http%3A%2F%2Faaronparecki.com%2Freplies%2F2013%2F01%2F27%2F1%2F
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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Loqi tantek: gjones left you a message 33 minutes ago: updated parser it now indents JSON http://microformat2-node.jit.su/?url=http%3A%2F%2Faaronparecki.com%2Freplies%2F2013%2F01%2F27%2F1%2F
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tantek gjones - awesome and looks great!
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tantek that is really slick - looks tighter (good thing) than the other pretty printing
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tantek a-ha - trying it on my site - now I found a bug
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tantek http://microformat2-node.jit.su/?url=http://tantek.com
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cweiske don't your browsers render json nicely themselves?
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tantek gjones, specifically: two objects "type": ["h-entry"] and "type": ["h-as-note"] should be one object "type": [ "h-as-note", "h-entry" ]
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tantek there are also different children hierarchies than what phpmf2 returns, e.g. compare http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http://tantek.com/ with http://microformat2-node.jit.su/?url=http://tantek.com
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gjones I will have a look at the two issues and get back to you.
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tommorris there are browser plugins for nicely rendered JSON: check addons.mozilla.org and Chrome Web Store. ;)
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@dellasm RT @wowuradio: #IndieNewz: RT @EllaStradling: To Submit or Not to Submit... http://ellastradling.com/to-submit-or-not-to-submit/ #author #blog #fantasy #indie #Indieauth… (twitter.com/_/status/373105138564861954)
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gjones Yes I use the chrome JSON Formatter https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/json-formatter/bcjindcccaagfpapjjmafapmmgkkhgoa but thought it would be good to indent it for people without an extension
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tommorris got a nice long flight on Monday. really need to spend some time at the weekend getting my laptop ready for a few hours of transatlantic uf2 parser dev. ;)
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gjones tantek looks like the first issue is that I am not joining objects i.e. [ "h-as-note", "h-entry" ] if there in the children section - I will look at sorting that now
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tantek they should be straight forward since they're in the same class attribute
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gjones tantek is there any reason why your not adding p-entry into the class list "h-entry hentry h-as-note" so that each entry is part of the hfeed and a child of it?
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tantek gjones - there's no need to add a p-* property to make a nested object a child
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tantek rather, a child in the children collection
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neuro` Morning tantek
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tantek realizes we're in #indiewebcamp rather than #microformats ;)
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neuro` both are kinda related, aren't they?
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barnabywalters keeping mf and indieweb stuff in their respective rooms makes for easier log searching
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tantek neuro` - #indiewebcamp uses #microformats as *some* of its building blocks. and indieweb sites are just one use-case of microformats (among many)
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barnabywalters equally, indieweb usage of microformats have pushed them forward at a fairly rapid pace
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tantek indeed, indieweb has been a good use-case driver, especially of microformats2
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tantek even helping to discover a parsing issue or two.
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tantek also the #microformats channel often hosts general semantic web like discussions (which HTML tags to use to mean what etc.)
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tantek which is more general web authoring than indieweb
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aaronpk pagination in general is a pet peeve of mine
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tantek hey aaronpk - welcome to yesterday's topic :)
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aaronpk catches up on logs
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aaronpk long day yesterday, mostly offline
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aaronpk or IRL, depending on how you look at it
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tantek someone here (was it barnabywalters) noted how they wanted to do per-paragraph comments like Medium
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tommorris there's an implementation that isn't Medium
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barnabywalters tantek: I noted that more granular comments are something I’m interesting
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tantek did anything get written down about that?
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barnabywalters I wrote the granular comments bit on the /comments page
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tantek (e.g. brainstorming on the wiki)
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tantek looks
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tommorris many years ago, I think MySociety built a per-paragraph comments thing for legislation
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barnabywalters tantek: http://indiewebcamp.com/comments#Granularity
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barnabywalters has some examples
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tantek tommorris - easy to build a silo that does that - more intereseting/challenging to figure out how to do that cross-site ;)
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barnabywalters it would probably be fairly easy to just have in-reply-to URLs with fragment identifiers, store the comments on post-level then move them around with js
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barnabywalters rather than treating each paragraph as a separate, commentable-upon thing
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tantek barnabywalters - in playing with the Medium UI a bit it seems like the [+] button that pops up over a selection applies to the whole paragraph
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tantek clicking it certainly shows all the comments for the paragraph
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barnabywalters tantek: yep, I think that’s the case
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Loqi SHOWS ALL THE COMMENTS http://loqi.me/7r_
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tantek so I'm not sure Medium does actual per-selection range comments
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tantek but rather uses selection as a hint to focus on the paragraph
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barnabywalters per-selection? no, I don’t know of anything which does that
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tantek I think the company/product that tilgovi works for does that
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tommorris goes to add something to the list and finds a comment that needs reporting
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barnabywalters closest thing to per-selection commenting is select-to-quote webaction with reply verb
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tantek select-to-quote is interesting yes
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tantek barnabywalters - select-to-quote is what the tweet button does on Medium when you select some text there
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barnabywalters tantek: sure, for posting rather than replying
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tantek yes - just like the select-to-quote webaction with reply verb
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tantek unless I'm missing something
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barnabywalters tantek: wait, what point are you making? that they’re the same?
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tantek are they not?
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barnabywalters so, I have web action toolbelt set up with two actions which can be taken on selected content
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barnabywalters quote, which creates a new note with the selected text in a <blockquote> and the URL afterwards
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tantek so that's the one
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barnabywalters and reply, which puts the URL in the in-reply-to field and blockquotes the selected text
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barnabywalters like a selective reply-context
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tantek ah ok
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barnabywalters better suited to commenting on articles
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tommorris.org edited /comment (+333) "/* Granularity */ adding TheyWorkForYou examples" (view diff)
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tommorris there we go. I found an example and it was so nutty I had to report it to the moderators
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tommorris (nutty comment was suggesting that the gay marriage bill was a plan to turn straight people in to a subservient class ruled over by evil rich nazi gays.)
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tantek wonders why he didn't see tommorris' wiki edit
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tantek here in the channel
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tommorris Loqi on /ignore?
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Loqi who, me?
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tantek nope, just saw a who, me
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tantek.com edited /comment (+449) "/* Granularity */ Medium allows per paragraph comments, tweet like a selection web action" (view diff)
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Loqi fix ) punc
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tantek oh there it is
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tantek I think I tried a preview just before seeing Loqi's message
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tantek barnabywalters - so you have a way to quote or reply to specific paragraphs but what about displaying others' comments on your paragraphs?
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tantek should it be possible for each paragraph to have a webmention endpoint?
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barnabywalters tantek: a *different* webmention endpoint? why? I already use one endpoint for all my content
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barnabywalters I don’t yet have a way of displaying granular comments
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tantek or should the webmention endpoint for the page accept "target" URLs with fragment identifiers for paragraphs and treat them accordingly?
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tantek do you have a way to even identify incoming granular comments?
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barnabywalters tantek: first things first, I need to give my p and hX etc elements IDs
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tantek do your paragraphs have ids?
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barnabywalters not yet
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tantek and does that make sense as a method of solving this?
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barnabywalters but I wrote a bunch of code recently to add these IDs to legal documents, so I know how I’ll do it
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tantek cool
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tantek for notes and articles or just articles?
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barnabywalters then, once I’ve done that, and made them discoverable/actionable, if people start sending webmentions with target URLs which have fragment IDs, I can write some JS which displays them in the right place
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barnabywalters probably for articles first
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barnabywalters as most of my notes are very small
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tantek maybe add a brainstorming section about how you intend to do so here then? http://indiewebcamp.com/articles
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tantek at least the point about "give my p and hX etc elements IDs"
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aaronpk sending a fragment ID as part of the target URL makese sense to me
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aaronpk be careful about how to generate the IDs though, so that they don't change if you update the article
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barnabywalters aaronpk: indeed
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tantek indeed - it seems like a challenge worthy of noting on said brainstorming section ;)
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barnabywalters I won’t be generating them dynamically — they’ll get added on creation or edit
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aaronpk e.g. sequential numbers, and ID based on the paragraph header are susceptible to changing
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barnabywalters tantek: currently alternating between creating UI for original post discovery and doing actual paid work, but I will note down my thoughts later on
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aaronpk lol I can't believe the "note" page is that long and the "article" page is like one sentence
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tantek.com edited /article (+555) "indieWeb examples, brainstorming" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk, FTFY ;)
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tantek barnabywalters, here's a seed of a section for you http://indiewebcamp.com/article#ID_markup_for_paragraphs_etc
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barnabywalters thanks
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barnabywalters okay tantek, OPD UI v1 http://waterpigs.co.uk/services/original-post
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aaronpk oh hey
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aaronpk tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 16 karma
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tantek barnabywalters - sweet!
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tantek does it work with protocol or assume you leave that off?
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tantek e.g. https://twitter.com/t/status/369940040010727424 didn't work but twitter.com/t/status/369940040010727424
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@t @jddunn, http://jareddunn.org looks nice.
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tantek did
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barnabywalters currently expects protocol
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aaronpk yeah! http://waterpigs.co.uk/services/original-post?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Faaronpk%2Fstatus%2F372829024503877632
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barnabywalters so, obviously feel free to use this endpoint in production if you want, as a stopgap
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aaronpk huh why doesn't tantek's twitter URL work but mine does with the https protocol?
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barnabywalters aaronpk: because I’m not resolving some redirects yet
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tantek speaking of resolving redirects… ;)
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barnabywalters this is the JS I’m using to make it work with my form: https://gist.github.com/barnabywalters/6380386
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tantek.com edited /webmention (+223) "/* checking target validity */ explicitly note need to support receiving webmentions that specify a target that is a permashortlink for one of your posts" (view diff)
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tantek barnabywalters - what should original-post-discovery do with tweets of blog posts?
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tantek e.g. https://twitter.com/t/status/369639406623535104
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@t Questions About @Twitter's Related Headlines Feature: http://tantek.com/2013/231/b1/questions-twitter-related-headlines-feature
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barnabywalters tantek: I would have thought the same thing
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barnabywalters the tweet is a POSSE copy of the original
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tantek barnabywalters - I'm leaning that direction too
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tantek however, note that neither aaronpk nor myself have rel=syndication links from our articles to the tweets of their name + permalink.
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tantek perhaps we should?
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barnabywalters me neither, I’m certainly going to add it
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tantek but what to call them - because "View on Twitter" doesn't make much sense - you can't view the whole article on Twitter
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tantek.com edited /original-post-discovery (+155) "note implementation: Original Page Discovery testing tool" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /article (+68) "User: and use article name since articles have names" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /article (+361) "Examples: stub sections for aaronpk and barnabywalters" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2013/UK (-34) "move details to a new section below RSVP list" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2013/UK (+0) "/* Guest List */ sort Paul, updated counts" (view diff)
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Loqi benwerd: tantek left you a message on 8/27 at 7:59pm: I'm looking at adding web actions to my notes to simulate Twitter like buttons (favorite, retweet, reply) - have you considered doing so for your notes?
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Loqi benwerd: tantek left you a message on 8/27 at 8:13pm: here's where my thinking on web actions has led me (writing down what I think makes sense to implement just before implementing) http://indiewebcamp.com/webactions#clientside_conditionals
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benwerd I need to do some thinking on web actions. Right now I'm still thinking hard about internal web actions (i.e., selectively posting to different sites).
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benwerd Also, small Indieweb mention here: http://www.newstatesman.com/business/2013/08/us-government-taking-your-facebook-data-it-doesnt-stop-there
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benwerd Not quite the description I had hoped for, but there it is.
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /article (+98) "/* Barnaby Walters */" (view diff)
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tantek it's still good
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tantek benwerd, this tweet is motivating me to add web actions to my notes: https://twitter.com/zeldman/status/24224682530050048
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@zeldman .@glenda @kevinmarks @t If I want to reply to t's tweet, I can't do it from his site. I have to back-button back to Twitter. Lotta clicks.
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benwerd tantek - makes a lot of sense
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tantek I want readers that come from Twitter to my site to have a *better* experience on my site (at note permalinks) than they do on Twitter (on tweet permalinks)
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tantek (and certainly not have to click back to Twitter to follow-up to my posts)
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tantek benwerd - part of your quote got extracted into the subhead beneath that article's title!
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tantek "The problem is global and endemic. Nobody has clean hands." - benwerd
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benwerd So it did!
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tantek add the article to http://indiewebcamp.com/Posts_about_the_IndieWeb
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benwerd roger roger
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werd.io edited /Posts_about_the_IndieWeb (+209) "/* 2013 */" (view diff)
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werd.io edited /Posts_about_the_IndieWeb (+5) "/* 2013 */" (view diff)
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christopheducamp.com edited /Twitter-fr (+5894) "[fr: sync'd translation]" (view diff)
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benwerd I actually also made the point about it being PR, but I guess that was too many quotes. Anyway. Just tainted all of Silicon Valley in an article. Hope no-one minds.
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /article (+30) "/* Barnaby Walters */" (view diff)
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tantek note to self - discuss media training with benwerd ;)
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benwerd yes. media training is something I am definitely in need of.
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barnabywalters ooh, there was a gist a while back of an OHM session about dealing with the media…
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barnabywalters https://gist.github.com/PeterTheOne/6212123
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barnabywalters actually, this https://gist.github.com/adulau/6209099 is canonical
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benwerd barnabywalters: this is good. thank you!
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tantek that's not a bad list of warnings
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tantek I was thinking something more positively framed
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barnabywalters tantek: I for one would be interested in reading such a blog post
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tantek also that gist treats (frames) journalists a bit antagonistically than I like
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barnabywalters or perhaps an IWCUK session, as we’re getting a little more media attention now
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tantek let's start with potential IWC dinner/drinks conversation topic
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tantek and see if it's good enough for a blog post or further ;)
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tantek benwerd - remind me next time we have dinner/drinks. In particular, let's use the WIRED article as a case study.
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benwerd tantek - sounds good :)
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tantek is going out for a run and a snack.
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christopheducamp.com edited /comment-fr (+6460) "[fr: sync'd translation]" (view diff)
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hadleybeeman benwerd: Good article. It's interesting to see others grappling with this "what responsibilities do we have" issue.
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cldstr What's the article you guys are talking about?
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bret Wow, this pretty json extension just helped me understand uf2 way better: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/json-formatter/bcjindcccaagfpapjjmafapmmgkkhgoa?hl=en
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benwerd cldstr: this one http://www.newstatesman.com/business/2013/08/us-government-taking-your-facebook-data-it-doesnt-stop-there
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hadleybeeman cldstr: this one v
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hadleybeeman http://www.newstatesman.com/business/2013/08/us-government-taking-your-facebook-data-it-doesnt-stop-there
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barnabywalters echo
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hadleybeeman snap, benwerd. :)
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barnabywalters JINX
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hadleybeeman :)
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benwerd hadleybeeman: thanks! tantek's right that I need some media training - I gave Fred a braindump, basically - but the gist captures it, I think
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hadleybeeman I'm doing government strategy work for Mozilla at the moment, so I'm thinking about this a lot.
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hadleybeeman Governments, by and large, don't think about us having a moral aspect to our work. We need to demonstrate what role we want, I think.
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benwerd That's so important. Couldn't agree more
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benwerd And I think there's a strong place for communities like this one to assert that role
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benwerd Or rather, help to assert that role
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bret barnabywalters: It looks like you include an updated uF2 field on posts that don't appear to be updated. Should I be doing this too?
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hadleybeeman And with evidence too! Building/demonstrating/living the ideas makes the explanations so much easier than writing down a bunch of theory.
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bret I was adding them in after I updated posts
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benwerd Yes. There's a nice side effect, too, where you can begin to demonstrate the business & product benefits of taking that moral position.
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benwerd So you're demonstrating to governments, but also to the rest of the industry.
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benwerd Awesome that you're working on that!
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christopheducamp.com edited /article-fr (+1309) "[fr: sync'd translation]" (view diff)
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hadleybeeman Thanks! Are you coming to Brighton? I'd be interested to hear further thoughts on this.
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jernst Re press training, would it be useful to capture the key messages somewhere?
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hadleybeeman That would be great, jernst. And a few bullet points to respond to the main arguments against the IndieWeb movement.
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hadleybeeman (or is that in an FAQ somewhere? Still useful for press briefings)
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benwerd hadleybeeman: I was, but sadly can't now. Would love to discuss next time we're in the same city though.
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hadleybeeman I'm in SF on Tuesday?
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jernst My experience is that consistency trumps interviewing proficiency … and we geeks all have a tendency to confuse normal people by being too "complicated".
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hadleybeeman That fits with my experience, jernst, but there's a formula to preparing the info — which is something we geeks are good at too. :)
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hadleybeeman It's a lot like UX design. You just have to get into their heads and think about what they need out of the discussion.
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jernst it IS UX design, you are right. UX to your head or cause ...
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hadleybeeman Exactly!
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aaronpk i've been thinking about that too, media training is super important
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aaronpk we had to do a lot of that, but especially amber, when we were getting all the press about geoloqi
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Loqi GETT ALL THE PRESS http://loqi.me/7rc
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aaronpk we would always have media training sessions before a round of press would go out
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aaronpk the other thing is it really helps get everyone on the same page with regards to the message
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jernst So how did you come up with what you wanted to communicate in each case?
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aaronpk often we already had a specific goal
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aaronpk for example, go skim the articles from March 8-12, 2012 https://geoloqi.com/press
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aaronpk note that even though the articles have very different headlines, the content is very similar
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jernst "Solver of the Great Location Problem" I love this one
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aaronpk and of course each journalist takes a very different approach to the story, but if you look at the quotes from amber, they're all very nearly the same
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@_Ayudos Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production by Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #ayudos #films (twitter.com/_/status/373158026385326080)
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jernst What's difficult for the indie web is that it is a broad and varied kind of thing. Its very core feature! Harder to identify "the message".
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aaronpk sort of, although we have a specific approach that is different from a lot of other approaches, that's the message we should get across
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aaronpk the wiki is a good collection of that information, but it's a matter of distilling that into something easy for each of us to communicate very quickly
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@FilmCrowdfunder RT @_Ayudos: Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production by Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #a… (twitter.com/_/status/373158940219305986)
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jernst It usually boils down to something like: what is it, who is it for, why does it matter to them, how is it different from other things and why is that important, current status and perhaps call to join
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Loqi it is UX design
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tantek jernst - go ahead and add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC-people
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tantek aaronpk - indeed, being consistent (with *yourself*) is key
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tantek re: distilling that into something easy for each of us to communicate very quickly - every wiki page should start with that - something easy to communicate about the concept (that the page is about).
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tantek I've been trying to do that with the first 1-2 sentences including the <dfn>…</dfn> markup.
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aaronpk yes! those are great
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tantek they're no accident. that's deliberate content/copy design on my part.
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upon2020.com edited /IRC_People (+55) "Added jernst" (view diff)
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tantek thanks jernst! perhaps note on your User: page what software you're using for upon2020.com
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jernst A ton. Much of which is not publicly visible, e.g. I'm running web trees for the family genealogy project
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tantek jernst - well perhaps you can start by listing the software behind the publicly visible content of Upon2020.com
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jernst I'll come up with something
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tantek that's probably most useful for indieweb purposes
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tantek great!
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tantek (and totally ok if it
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tantek it's open source or not or partial
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tantek )
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tantek.com edited /challenges (+337) "added years headings for specific challenges. noting their timeframe will help us document them historically, especially as old challenges are over come, and new ones are encountered" (view diff)
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tantek hadleybeeman - re: "few bullet points to respond to the main arguments against the IndieWeb movement", you can help by providing citations/quote-snippets of "arguments against the IndieWeb" here: http://indiewebcamp.com/challenges
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tantek aaronpk, what's the best (most productive) way to follow-up to https://twitter.com/aral/status/373047653984403456 as fellow organizers of IndieWebCamps?
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@aral Folks, I know it’s a UX nightmare at the moment but please sign up on the Wiki, not Lanyrd, to attend Indie Web Camp: http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK
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tantek Clearly we need to document the "deliberate UX barrier by design to filter creators from talkers for limited capacity and time" aspect somewhere more discoverable.
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aaronpk maybe a new page, /register, which we put that background?
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aaronpk and all the event pages link to that page, which has the instructions and background info
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aaronpk we can also use that page to clarify that barrier is not supposed to be learning mediawiki syntax
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hadleybeeman Tantek: Is "well volunteered" an expression that exists in the US? *wry smile*
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tantek hadleybeeman - not sure. how about turning requests "And a few bullet points to" into next-steps for the requester to take towards having those requests provided? ;)
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@eThrillerWriter RT @IndieWriteNet: Review the Reviewer – a Writer’s (and Reader’s) guide to Book Reviews | Eric J. Gates- http://traffic.shareaholic.com/e/?u=http://indiewritenet.com/writersguide/2012/05/31/review-the-reviewer-a-writers-and-readers-guide-to-book-reviews/&r=1&a=1&s=7&f=3122983 #indieauth… (twitter.com/_/status/373170959257444353)
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christopheducamp.com edited /webactions-fr (+7171) "[fr: sync'd translation - to be reviewed]" (view diff)
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@_Ayudos Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production by Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #ayudos #films (twitter.com/_/status/373176006410260480)
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christopheducamp.com edited /webmention-fr (+3762) "[fr: sync'd translation - to be reviewed]" (view diff)
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t37.net edited /webmention-fr (+35) "Small fixes and rephrasing of the French translation." (view diff)
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@FilmCrowdfunder RT @_Ayudos: Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production by Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #a… (twitter.com/_/status/373183620149952512)
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hadleybeeman I'm just teasing, tantek. When someone says, "It would be great if [whatever] was [done this way]," you reply "well vounteered!" to tell them you're misinterpreting what they've said to mean that they'll do it themselves.
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hadleybeeman I'll have a think about it — though I'm about to disappear to SoCal for the weekend. Will try though.
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aaronpk funny, I haven't heard "well volunteered" before, but we have a similar phrase which I can't remember
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jernst "you have been volunteered". But "well volunteered" sounds nicer.
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tommorris hadleybeeman: "On Wikipedia, the reward for a job well done is another three jobs." (David Gerard)
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tantek hadleybeeman, it's not a misinterpretation at all, but rather, tying of desire to responsibility.
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tantek encouraging empowerment rather than dependency that is
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tantek and to be clear it's certainly not all "they'll do it themselves."
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tantek it's more like, if someone wants something or asks for it, better to turn it into a joint effort, of them doing some work towards that desired request first, to which others can build upon to satisfy the original request
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tantek more like a trade
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tantek e.g. you asked for "And a few bullet points to respond to the main arguments against the IndieWeb movement." and I didn't ask you to do all that work yourself. I merely asked you to do half the work (what should be the easier half for you)
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tantek that is, the "document 'the main arguments against the IndieWeb movement'" portion of your request
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tantek so that the community can help complete your request by writing up the "a few bullet points to respond to " portion.
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tantek if a request is important to someone, then they'll at least do *some* of the work towards making it happen.
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tantek if someone making a request isn't willing to do at least some work towards satisfying that request, then perhaps the request isn't really that important to them and time (of others, the community) can be better spent on other things.
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tantek aaronpk - a similar phrase though not as polite is perhaps "put up or shut up" ;)
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tantek overall the approach of making requesters do some of the work towards what they are requesting tends to be a good way to filter doers vs. talkers, which helps everyone else focus on requests from doers over requests from purely talkers.
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tantek thus the reply requesting some of the work serves as a switch for doers/talkers to self-select accordingly.
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hadleybeeman Sorry — your response made perfect sense to me. I just didn't see it coming. So it made me laugh.
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@_Ayudos Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production by Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #ayudos #films (twitter.com/_/status/373205995750948864)
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tantek hadleybeeman - that is pretty funny. I'd have expected it was a predictable response ;)
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tantek glad to know I can still be (somewhat) unpredictable.
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hadleybeeman indeed :)
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upon2020.com edited /User:Upon2020.com (+72) "/* Projects related to the indie web */" (view diff)
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@FilmCrowdfunder RT @_Ayudos: Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production by Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #a… (twitter.com/_/status/373208829879939072)
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upon2020.com edited /User:Upon2020.com (+462) "added list of software that I'm running" (view diff)
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jernst Hey, some of you probably know I'm working on the "Indie Box Project" -- run Indie web apps on cheap embedded/plug servers like the Raspberry Pi in your home.
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jernst The first simple version of the site is up and some scaffold code in GitHub. http://indieboxproject.org/
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jernst Would love feedback.
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benwerd jernst: awesome! Might be worth putting a version of the goal on the front page below the navigation and above the blog? "We're making easier ways to run your own apps on personal servers that you control" or something. Just so people immediately get some sense of what the project's about
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benwerd Obviously that was placeholder wording from me, but the point is, something friendly
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jernst benwerd: You are right.
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bret jernst: cool!
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bret jernst: have you seen ansible? It does what puppet and chef does, but all through ssh from your client
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bret might come in handy?
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jernst bret: I have not. Will take a look.
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bret it is supposed to scale down better than puppet
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bret some people say ;)
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bret still, its pretty heavy duty
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@ReginaPucket RT @gaelynnwoods: Is bigger always better? With regards to #books, of course... Chime in on THE BIG HEAT: http://gaelynnwoods.blogspot.com/2013/08/does-size-matter-sorry-all-you-sex.html #indieauth… (twitter.com/_/status/373218395719598080)
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jernst Hm, ansible white paper requires registration.
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aaronpk ??
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aaronpk https://github.com/ansible/ansible
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aaronpk http://www.ansibleworks.com/docs/
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jernst I'm just poking around, one of the first descriptions I come across requires registration. Perhaps there are others / better ones ...
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aaronpk weird!
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jernst I guess I found the marketing department first.
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@authoress_cj RT @gaelynnwoods: Is bigger always better? With regards to #books, of course... Chime in on THE BIG HEAT: http://gaelynnwoods.blogspot.com/2013/08/does-size-matter-sorry-all-you-sex.html #indieauth… (twitter.com/_/status/373220159780954113)
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Loqi [mention] http://labs.doodnauth.com/tcwp/2013/08/conferences-roundup-upcoming-web-design-events-sept-2013-feb-2014/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK (pingback)
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@_Ayudos Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production by Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #ayudos #films (twitter.com/_/status/373221115227033600)
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bret whoa cool: http://beagleboard.org/Products/BeagleBone%20Black
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bret $45
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jernst bret: I have one sitting right here on my desk, plus a zoo of others. They are somehow popping up all over.
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jernst I brought some of them last week for show and tell at the personal clouds gathering in SF http://personalclouds-es2.eventbrite.com/
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bret a coworker just IMed me with it
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bret way cool
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bret I wonder how the liscence is to use it?
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jernst my personal favorite: $129 quad-core Wandboard. http://wandboard.org/
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@FilmCrowdfunder RT @_Ayudos: Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production by Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #a… (twitter.com/_/status/373223388531425280)
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aaronpk I want something the size of a USB stick
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bret whoa
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aaronpk like this http://store.cstick.com/cotton-candy.html
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jernst aaronpk: what would you run on it?
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aaronpk I want to run a small web server, maybe a database, and broadcast a wifi hotspot from the device
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jernst web server doing what? (I'm looking for use cases.) One of mine is a family calendar on the home network.
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aaronpk then you'd be able to connect to my wifi hotspot (it would show up like a regular wifi thing, not an ad-hoc network), and I'd throw up the "sign-in" prompt like airport wifi things do which would actually just be my website
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bret hehe cool
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jernst your walking persona, so to speak, when you go to meetings?
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aaronpk and I'd power it with http://www.amazon.com/dp/B008D64M8E
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jernst I'd love to know whether there is any WiFi that can act as base station and client simultaneously. Failed to find out so far.
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aaronpk probably not, but wifi chips are so tiny that it's not a big deal to have two
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aaronpk e.g. http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003MTTJOY
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jernst Yea, I have a few of those. One came with the Ninja Blocks kit from Kickstarter.
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jernst Which is an interesting BeagleBone / Arduino combo, but unfortunately they changed biz strategy and now drive all their data access though their cloud instead of the device itself
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aaronpk that is a much easier business model right now :)
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jernst so the rumor has it. whether that is necessarily true I'm not certain
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jernst what is wrong with "pay for value received"? I vastly prefer this over "we have a veto over your data and may exercise it some day we feel like it"
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aaronpk one of the reasons I think all the home automation and quantified self hardware has finally taken off in 2012-2013 is that they are all "cloud-based"
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aaronpk which makes things like setup and updates easier for the manufacturer
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aaronpk while it's not an ideal situation, I am happy to see all this progress being made on the hardware side in the mean time
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jernst but they are all not very functional because there is no interoperability. I'd like to switch on my webcam and record what it sees on my home server when a certain door opens. I will never get that from the "cloud" market unless I buy from a single vendor
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aaronpk oh yea of course, that's another big problem
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aaronpk but again, one thing at a time. Right now I feel like there has been a *ton* of progress made on the hardware and UX side of these things
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aaronpk so I'm happy to see that, and that will hopefully be used as a stepping stone to make even better products that are more "indie" friendly later
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jernst well, I'm biased: http://upon2020.com/blog/2013/01/my-raspberry-pi-pool-timer-project-bill-of-materials/
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jernst the stage we are at is a bit like the "integrated hardware/software/services" stage of the minicomputer age
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jernst buy a "CAD workstation" etc.
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aaronpk telling people to go buy resistors and solder stuff together is kind of like telling people to go set up their own web server and install crap
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jernst that was a one-off project just for my family
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aaronpk yeah, it's cool, and i'm glad a lot of people are hacking on that stuff too
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aaronpk but I'm not discounting the work being done by companies like Nest, SmartThings, Jawbone, because they are making a lot of advances in other aspects
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jernst qualitatively there is no difference between somebody setting up their own public website for, say, publishing or social interactions, and somebody setting up the kind of software controller (plus web interface) for their house
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jernst So Nest etc = Facebook
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bret.io edited /User:Bret.io () "(-3600) /* my indie web setup */" (view diff)
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jernst Just in a slightly different market segment
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aaronpk yeah, and of course I want my Nest, SmartThings, Withings scale, etc to talk directly to my home web server
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bret.io edited /User:Bret.io (-78) "/* Current IndieWeb Projects */" (view diff)
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aaronpk but just like Facebook/Twitter pushed things way far ahead on the web and brought the technology to a lot more people, I think the same thing will happen with hardware
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bret just rode by your office aaronpk
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aaronpk nice
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bret looking for the courthouse :
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aaronpk it's close
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bret i found it
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bret the MS store was empty XD
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aaronpk haha
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aaronpk it gets a few people around lunch time
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micrypt.com edited /2013/UK (+318) "Added Seyi Ogunyemi to RSVP list." (view diff)
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bret which is kind of nice I guess, i hate going into apple store, I feel like I am going to get sick. So many people
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bret stores*
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aaronpk the new one is going to be so much nicer
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aaronpk i can't wait
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bret new apple store?
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aaronpk yea
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bret where at?
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aaronpk above ground!
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aaronpk it's the giant pile of rubble next to pioneer place right now
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bret oh that hole in the ground?
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bret finally!
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aaronpk used to be part of the mall but they just tore down that part
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bret oh
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bret hrmm
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bret maybe Im not thinking of the same place
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