tantek.comedited /Falcon (+876) "/* Working On */ web actions, to selfdogfood an IndieMark Level 1 requirement and document the experience of doing so to make it easier for others" (view diff)
tommorrisDisagree with aral. Trickle-down technology only "doesn't work" if your goal is to get what you are working on into the hands of the wider world
neuro`!tell aaronpk I'm setting up an indieauth server. If you're interested we can setup some DNS round robin / other technique to ensure authentication is still possible when the main indieauth.com site fails.
Loqiaaronpk: neuro` left you a message 5 hours, 4 minutes ago: I'm setting up an indieauth server. If you're interested we can setup some DNS round robin / other technique to ensure authentication is still possible when the main indieauth.com site fails.
tantekbecause, frankly, he's behind on his own indieweb "development" and that frustrates him, he doesn't know why, so he blames the rest of the community
aaronpkhttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6306885 "This is a fallacy based on a complete misunderstanding of trickle down economics. The premise of trickle down economics is that a rising tide lifts all boats, which has occurred. The poor today are considerably richer than even the middle class of earlier eras."
aaronpkRe: "In technology, some of us share a similar philosophy to trickle”down economics. We believe that when a technically”savvy elite of enthusiasts build tools and technologies for themselves, that technology will eventually trickle down and help less technically”savvy members of society."
barnabywalters“Indiewebcamp and by extension indieauth and the wiki are tools which, by not compromising on their principles, expose UX flaws further up in the chain, and make fixing them a practical necessity rather than an idealistic desire”
tantekaaronpk - but by building them as open source, you are enabling others to build more tools as well, which will likely be used by (even just a few) more people
tantekaaronpk - right, that's another key part of what Aral doesn't seem to understand about selfdogfood - that's the only way we've found to practically figure out these very challenging decentralized protocols
aaronpkso, re: "We cannot create solutions for enthusiasts and magically expect them to also fit the needs of consumers." I agree. The point is that's not what we're doing.
tantekprevious efforts at directly designing decentralized protocols (without selfdogfood) always result in overly complex protocols that not enough people can implement. e.g. Salmon
tanteke.g. URLs. never even designed to be something people were supposed to remember and use, they've *accidentally* succeeded in massive amounts to the point where they're on nearly every consumer product.
tantekthat was a enthusiast-first solution that was specifically NOT intended for consumers, and yet, now consumers are totally exposed to them and using them (whether they know it or not)
tantekbarnabywalters - doesn't matter. it's still a perfect example of a "solutions created by enthusiasts for enthusiasts" that happened to "also work for consumers" (quotes from Aral's post)
tantekcounter-examples 3 and 4 are even bigger, and reflects what happens when you design for yourself and friends first, and then iterate/improve the design over and over and over for *years*
tantekaaronpk - I'm going to go out on a limb and say nearly everyone here, in this channel lives in *the middle* of the enthusiasts <---> consumer spectrum
aaronpkat some point I became more interested in using the computers than tinkering with them, which is around the time I switched over to OS X from windows
tantekand selfdogfood, especially with a *public* website, where your friends can praise you or complain or make fun of you for what you publish, and what it looks like, makes you a consumer as well as an enthusiast.
aaronpkso for my main machine that I use every day I want it to *just work* and don't want to think about the internals. but I still install crap on linux servers when I need to
aaronpkI'm willing to put out some amount of effort to collect personal data to use later. That is something *very* much in the enthusiast space right now
aaronpkso what I'm getting at is I take personal offense to Aral's statement that enthusiasts and consumers are "two very different demographics with very different levels of knowledge"
aaronpk"Needless to say, enthusiasts and consumers are not necessarily mutually exclusive demographics. We can also view them as modes that people subscribe to at different times."
aaronpkbut I think he still manages to set up the dichotomy there as well, by saying "you may be an enthusiast when playing with your Raspberry Pi and a consumer when you just want to talk to your boyfriend over FaceTime"
tantekif uplevel this a bit, I think Aral may be feeling like a bit of an outsider, since he hasn't been involved with indiewebcamp other than the first IndieWebCampUK
aaronpki've been getting IRC to be used more internally at Esri, which ends up working out great once people are set up, but is super confusing and frustrating to people to get going the first time
tantekaaronpk - I do think he may have some "outsider" syndrome going on. Not because of anything deliberate we or he has done but just from a difference in tools
aaronpkok, maybe this explains his lack of interaction here: "... there is currently great work being done by enthusiasts for enthusiasts in the IndieWebCamp initiative ..."
aaronpk"This is why we need a separate, complimentary initiative..." and "We will, of course, work alongside our IndieWebCamp friends and support the IndieWebCamp initiative..."
tantekaaronpk - the sadder thing is, I don't think Aral fundamentally understands what "movement" "initiative" and "community" mean (judging by his lack of engagement here in IRC and on the wiki)
tantekOTOH, judging from his actions (or lack there of :/ ) Aral doesn't seem to "get" communities, movements etc. so I'm not sure what he'll achieve on his own besides a few retweets.
tantekso here's the thing, we *know* indiewebcamp design/ux can be improved considerably (whether the wiki, or even what we're all running on our own sites)
tantek(and pardon me if anyone here thinks they've already got a perfect or nearly so UX on their site, if so, please share with the rest of us so we may learn ;) )
tantekbecause right now, I think Aral feels like an outsider, and is hence driven to start something new, that focuses on what he sees as the right focus
aaronpkthe question is whether he doesn't feel included *because* he sees our focus as "for enthusiasts by enthusiasts" or whether that comment came from feeling not included
tantekbarnabywalters - perhaps post some notes (with a link to your article) @-replying to @aral etc. so that their tweet permalinks show your follow-ups
barnabywaltersthis is the third time this month I’ve wanted multiple replies (to both of aral’s tweets and laura’s tweet). might actually have to build that soon
tantekthe challenge with multi-reply is that you can build it for your own site but you'll inevitably have to pick one tweet as the in_reply_to_status_id for your POSSE copy.
barnabywaltersI currently have no way of automating h-cite in my posting UI (as I do h-card) so I’m not going to require it o anyone else until I have something in place
aaronpkbarnabywalters: yeah true. I already have a "preview" box so I can see what it will look like on twitter, shouldn't be hard to make that editable
tantekbarnabywalters - heh. "write up a proposal in detail" Aral's been doing a lot of writing, not much building/creati ng. he might be missing the talker vs. doer distinction.
neuro`Yesterday, I met a guy calle Henry Story, who's working on a decentralized social network with authentication + ACLs using RDF everywhere. Not sure what to think about it yet.
tommorrisinteresting that you bring up hashtags. I was on the train last night and drunk people were talking about hashtags. I was kind of drunk and pointed out that I know the guy who invented hashtags. They asked if he'd made millions out of it.
tantekalso about URLs. easy to remember short domains / URLs are now *replacing* (rather than supplanting) phone numbers in advertisements, billboards, TV shows etc.
tantek!tell barnabywalters Aral doesn't intend to be trollish or make you angry. He's genuinely trying to improve usability. His ideas may not necessarily have merit for doing so, however the motivation and method (fewer steps) are right on.
tantekTrue but for a different reason. Security UX tests have shown that the bounce somewhere and bounce-back web UI flow is much more vulnerable to phishing attacks.
tantekSame would be true if the user didn't have an email address (which used to be true in the 1990s), or didn't have a cell phone number (which also used to be in the 1980s).
tantek> Even if the user has their own server, they may not want to add the provided markup to it to expose their social networks, email address, or phone number.
tantekHis assertion about "may now want to … expose their social networks" is false. the default behavior of people with their own websites is to openly link to their social network profiles. This is the existing emergent behavior that RelMeAuth, and the Web Sign-in experience, was built-upon.
tantekI've thought about wanting to setup SMS based IndieAuth on my domain, but only expose the link to requests from the indieauth server. So if there were some way to my server to know the request was coming from indieauth.com, then my server could give it more info. aaronpk may have ideas on how to do this.
tantekYes. That's a logical step. Some sort of home page configuration UI that lets you pick your "other profiles". Actually we've already seen such UIs. Pownce had one. G+ has one.
tantekBecause you are not your email address and you are not your phone number. Already explained. Perhaps we need to expound on both of these further in the wiki.
tantekAnd short of bio-auth (hand, thumbprint, retina, etc.) no one will bother - and physical identification has other downsides (can't delegate etc.)
tantekWe can't trust those. You don't own those. Your email you sharecrop on a silo (or if its your own domain, then just type your own domain, simpler). Your phone # you get from an even smaller # of govt monopoly providers. Also not yours.
tantekThey're good enough for that, because you, the user, can swap them out at any time, and no website that uses your web identity depends on your email or phone #.
tantekNope. More like. Boom, you're now distracted by email hell as you look for an email from a previously unknown sender amongst all the email in your inbox etc.
tantekYou mean that thing where your phone provider is a government monopoly and is already sending everything to the government, long before websites or email providers did?
tantekWhat if your phone doesn't have data coverage where you are? Again, foreign country use-case (1%?) or what if you're trying to sign-in on your *laptop*, not on your phone?
tantekYour site should give you a simple usable dashboard that let's you easily one-click add additional profiles for *you* (whether social network / web profiles, email, sms, or perhaps in the future (back to the past style), fax, or maybe even postcard receiving physical address ;)
tantekand their index.html already likely has this information, their name, hyperlink to their Twitter, hyperlink to their Facebook, perhaps even summary bio
tantek* Pave the cowpaths. People already publish their name, twitter, fb, bio on their home page. Better to ask them to simply add rel=me and a class name or two, than ask them to:
tantekworth writing that into a blog post? or just a series of FAQs under the right topics on IndieWebCamp? thoughts? feedback/corrections? improvements?
@indieboxproject Indie Box Project design principles and assumptions. First cut. http://indieboxproject.org/wiki/Design_Principles_and_Key_Assumptions #indieweb #pcloud (twitter.com/_/status/373601563610075136)
tantek.com edited /Falcon (+876) "/* Working On */ web actions, to selfdogfood an IndieMark Level 1 requirement and document the experience of doing so to make it easier for others" (view diff)
@gustaf_nk RT @aral: Indie Data http://aralbalkan.com/notes/indie-data/ #indiedata (twitter.com/_/status/373698219324477440)
@temporaryhuman @Dymaxion Back in the day we called it #Protocol vs #Empire http://flavors.me/silverton "The" internet too static. Need more @IndieWebCamp types? (twitter.com/_/status/373706763389779968)
Loqi [@aral] @t @braempje I believe I articulated my case at http://t.co/g2MIKdlc9h. Will clarify difference in future post
@aral @t @braempje (Indie Data is an evolution of #ownyourdata — time to add experience design & mainstream adoption as core focus areas.) (twitter.com/_/status/373708915420459008)
@t @aral @braempje #indieweb #UX-focussed since start. "mainstream" before #selfdogfood is a known anti-pattern: http://tantek.com/2013/243/t1/indieweb-ux-focussed-start (twitter.com/_/status/373720294751748096)
@storagebod RT @aral: Trickle”down technology and why it doesn’t work. http://aralbalkan.com/notes/trickle-down-technology/ #indiedata #xo (twitter.com/_/status/373757348470599680)
@CraigGrannell RT @aral: Trickle”down technology and why it doesn’t work. http://aralbalkan.com/notes/trickle-down-technology/ #indiedata #xo (twitter.com/_/status/373770991262236672)
@ramsden RT @aral: Trickle”down technology and why it doesn’t work. http://aralbalkan.com/notes/trickle-down-technology/ #indiedata #xo (twitter.com/_/status/373772962392199168)
@mindcrash RT @aral: Trickle”down technology and why it doesn’t work. http://aralbalkan.com/notes/trickle-down-technology/ #indiedata #xo (twitter.com/_/status/373774998768332802)
@notatibm RT @aral: Trickle”down technology and why it doesn’t work. http://aralbalkan.com/notes/trickle-down-technology/ #indiedata #xo (twitter.com/_/status/373796301257052160)
@eyelearn_tips RT @aral: Trickle”down technology and why it doesn’t work. http://aralbalkan.com/notes/trickle-down-technology/ #indiedata #xo (twitter.com/_/status/373796383620620288)
@jamiebullock @aral clicking the IndieData link I get this. I assume it’s not a subtle joke ;) https://twitter.com/jamiebullock/status/373804582335705088/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/373804582335705088)
@fdevillamil IndieAuth is so far what I consider the best solution for reliable, decentralized authentication, but I see at lea... http://t37.net/note/30854-indieauth-https-indieauth-com-is-so-far-what-i-consider-the-best-solution-for-re (twitter.com/_/status/373807571611947008)
@bigstilton Wow. Thanks. I now get #XO. RT @aral: Trickle”down technology and why it doesn’t work. http://aralbalkan.com/notes/trickle-down-technology/ #indiedata #xo (twitter.com/_/status/373828468917948416)
aaronpk hackernews comment thread on aral's post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6306671
barnabywalters good afternoon indiewebcamp
tantek barnabywalters - we're debunking this post here in the channel: http://aralbalkan.com/notes/trickle-down-technology/
@BarnabyWalters On the @indiewebcamp sign in barrier and why calling it a bad UX is inaccurate: http://waterpigs.co.uk/articles/indiewebcamp-signin-ux/ (twitter.com/_/status/373865720117198848)
neuro` Great post barnabywalters. I didn't saw Aral's post today, but published some thoughts about Indie Auth sooner today http://t37.net/note/30854-indieauth-https-indieauth-com-is-so-far-what-i-consider-the-best-solution-for-re
waterpigs.co.uk edited /multiple-reply (+508) "/* Multiple Reply in Silos */ noted possible solution to twitter multiple reply issue" (view diff)
@aaronpk @fdevillamil Thanks for the notes! Re 1: adding rel=me is a manual step right now if you're... #indieauth http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2013/08/31/1/indieauth (twitter.com/_/status/373871925866418176)
@smarimc @timmaughan @PaulGrahamRaven afraid not - will be at IndieWebCamp over the weekend. Will you still be there on Friday? /cc @justinpickard (twitter.com/_/status/373881531120754688)
@honorharger @smarimc you're coming to IndieWebCamp at @LighthouseArts? Great! See you there. Cc @timmaughan @PaulGrahamRaven @justinpickard (twitter.com/_/status/373882665738698752)
@TrsstProject Happy to say we are completely compatible with this vision for the #indieweb. @veganstraightedge https://medium.com/indieweb-thoughts/9d0e36524dbf (twitter.com/_/status/373915567448526848)
@swpax RT @TrsstProject: Happy to say we are completely compatible with this vision for the #indieweb. @veganstraightedge https://medium.com/indieweb-thoughts/9d0e36524dbf (twitter.com/_/status/373915780087152642)
@iaincollins RT @aral: On evolving IndieAuth — a few thoughts on how we can improve the user experience. http://aralbalkan.com/notes/on-evolving-indieauth/ (twitter.com/_/status/373920279489024000)
@Arty2 RT @aral: On evolving IndieAuth — a few thoughts on how we can improve the user experience. http://aralbalkan.com/notes/on-evolving-indieauth/ (twitter.com/_/status/373920362095853569)
@Raaphorst RT @TrsstProject: Happy to say we are completely compatible with this vision for the #indieweb also. @davewiner https://medium.com/i-m-h-o/349109119cee (twitter.com/_/status/373924239847718912)