#indiewebcamp 2013-10-20

2013-10-20 UTC
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aaronpk https://twitter.com/nickheiner/status/391715391233200128
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@nickheiner "fortunately, I saved my web page and transferred it to geocities" how many times have you heard that sentiment? #realtimeconf
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aaronpk https://twitter.com/DwdDave/status/391715782435950592
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@DwdDave This talk, right now, at #realtimeconf is *exactly* the thing I bang on about all the time. Yes! Almost worth breaking my 140 char rule for.
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aaronpk https://twitter.com/adambrault/status/391716293327323136
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@adambrault I love the source citations in the footers of slides for @caseorganic’s indie web talk. #realtimeconf
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@ciberch @caseorganic's talk about silos = lots of quotes from @t @chrismessina. My world #myspace #facebook #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/391719546777653248)
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aaronpk https://twitter.com/philip_roberts/status/391720014031515648
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@philip_roberts @benwerd your blog is getting mentioned by @caseorganic at @RealtimeConf :)
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aaronpk our /team page is now full of h-cards :) http://pdx.esri.com/team/
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aaronpk https://twitter.com/getify/status/391720848265998336
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@getify #realtimeconf lots of talk of owning your own data by self-hosting. however, ownership without the right to privacy/control is theater.
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aaronpk https://twitter.com/ciberch/status/391721351154659328
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@ciberch @caseorganic show things don't tell. Its ok for it to start ugly, just #start
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aaronpk https://twitter.com/adambrault/status/391721502082469888
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@adambrault “Be as awkward as you can, and iterate. The best ideas all start as something rough and far from perfect.” — @caseorganic #realtimeconf
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aaronpk https://twitter.com/aral/status/391723090280849408
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@aral #RealtimeConf being overrun by agents of SILOS. https://twitter.com/aral/status/391723090280849408/photo/1
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aaronpk https://twitter.com/antirez/status/391722841730584577
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@antirez @caseorganic interesting talk, thanks
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aaronpk https://twitter.com/adambrault/status/391725149210152960
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@adambrault “Only you can prevent SILOS.” —@caseorganic
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@aral ‘If not us then who?’—@anoemi Who, indeed? #RealtimeConf #indiedata #indieweb #civilliberties #humanrights (twitter.com/_/status/391728944208031746)
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bret now what?
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bret :)
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bret hope the talk went well. Eagerly waiting the recording
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bret anyone coming to webrtc camp tomorrow?
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aaronpk https://twitter.com/thatryana/status/391785148284293120
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@thatryana Home from #realtimeconf, bursting with inspiration. Time to get started on http://t.co/Fs5sVllHJ0.
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aaronpk we're doing mapattack tomorrow, then getting on an airplane :)
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tantek aaronpk - awesome!
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tantek hopefully we'll see more folks in the channel from realtimeconf?
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aaronpk hope so!
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tantek aaronpk - are caseorganic's slides posted?
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aaronpk yep!
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Loqi benwerd: tantek left you a message 2 days, 6 hours ago: when did you implement sending (and receiving) webmentions? also, what do you think of adding rel=webmention in addition or instead of the .org rel in idno?
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Loqi benwerd: tantek left you a message 2 days, 4 hours ago: do you discover&send webmentions synchronously or asynchronously in your posting UI? either way, do you report webmention results back to your posting UI?
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benwerd tantek: fixed the bug you reported last week. Thanks so much for finding it - and sorry for being slower than reported. http://werd.io/2013/spam-calendar-invites-thats-a-new-one-for-me
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tantek woot!
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Loqi giggles
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benwerd and in answer to these questions in turn:
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tantek did you resend that webmention manually?
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jernst_ Just came across this hackathon: https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/Worldwide_Aaron_Swartz_Memorial_Hackathon_Series. Join them at Noisebridge and hack indieweb stuff?
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benwerd tantek: yes
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tantek :)
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benwerd I sent webmentions May 31st, received them sometime in June
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benwerd I've just added rel=webmention in addition to .org, adding it now (think it's a good idea)
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aaronpk http://caseorganic.com/presentations/2013/10/19/1/the-open-web-and-the-opportunity-of-now
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benwerd and no webmentions are reported back in the UI - yet (I want to change the form's visual context based on anything it discovers in the target)
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benwerd aaronpk: awesome!
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benwerd tantek (and other SF indiewebbers): got time for a catchup sometime this week maybe?
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tantek benwerd - that would be lovely
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tantek benwerd - above werd.io permalink is now returning empty content
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benwerd tantek - yep, refreshing the whole site from scratch, is down temporarily
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tantek how long does it take to refresh?
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benwerd I'm actually doing this one manually, on a relatively slow connection so a minute or two. normally, seconds
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benwerd (because normally it's a git pull)
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benwerd re: catching up, are any of Tuesday, Thursday, Friday good for you?
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benwerd (Tuesday or Thursday better)
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benwerd gtg, will check in later
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@RealtimeConf RT @aral: ‘If not us then who?’—@anoemi Who, indeed? #RealtimeConf #indiedata #indieweb #civilliberties #humanrights (twitter.com/_/status/391796142691737600)
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tantek !tell benwerd - awesome, you're using <link href="http://werd.io/webmention/" rel="http://webmention.org/ webmention"/> which defeats all the regexes
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek so they have to parse for rel attributes properly
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aaronpk heh
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tantek.com edited /webmention (+148) "/* IndieWeb implementations */ more details on benwerd's implementation, move it up in time order" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk - the footer reference link is quite powerful
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aaronpk yes I thought that was a nice touch!
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tantek OMS - love this slide - so true: "You Want to Blog, But..."
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caseorganic !recap
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Loqi sorry i can't do that right now. The logs are at https://chat.projectnerdhaus.com/logs/nerdhaus/today
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tantek hey caseorganic - just reading your slides! :)
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caseorganic tantek: haha - aaron told me!
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aaronpk https://twitter.com/taterbase/status/391799444661739521
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@taterbase @caseorganic really enjoyed your talk, inspired by what you guys are doing at Indie Web Camp and hope to join you for next meet up.
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caseorganic tantek: preso got very good response. some people registered their own domain name already
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tantek so good
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caseorganic that's the very last keeping it realtime conf, too
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caseorganic there was only one opportunity!
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tantek glad you got the Twitter - Jaiku event in there - that was an important one that's been swept under the rug
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caseorganic also, slides in html - so luxurious
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tantek yes!
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caseorganic tantek: ha, well, i had blaine cook review my slides and we talked for at least 2 hours while sitting next to each other at dinner yesterday
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tantek I remember that happening (I was at Social Web Foo) and I remember blaine talking about it later too
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caseorganic tantek: ralph meijer was in the front row for the talk! i didn't recognize him until he pointed to himself
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tantek that's hilarious!
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caseorganic tantek: blaine was absolutely beaming about it. he was so excited when it happened
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tantek well played
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caseorganic tantek: i felt like something was missing but i didn't know what it was
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tantek when what happened? was he at realtimeconf in your talk?
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tantek "Frustrated Social Web Summit" - LOL
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caseorganic tantek: ralph was at the talk and in the slide - he pointed to himself on the big screen from the front row. extremely amused
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tantek caseorganic - what was the context of this slide?http://caseorganic.com/presentations/2013/10/19/1/files/slides/?full#40
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caseorganic tantek: to show just how much more communication can be done over irc vs. email
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tantek oh wow
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caseorganic tantek: massive increase in data density
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aaronpk and showing how much more productive IRC discussions are
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tantek how did that go over? that's a very mailing list heavy crowd
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tantek including folks like blaine, eran, etc.
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aaronpk hah as far as I can tell eran hates mailing lists as much as you do
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tantek oh boy - there's IndieMark in a slide - guess it's real now :)
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aaronpk you saw his talk last year, right? "Fuck OAuth"?
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tantek eran used to argue for email lists
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tantek I think he finally got frustrated enough
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tantek OMS - Braveheart LOL
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tantek obneo!
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caseorganic what is obneo?
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tantek caseorganic - short for "Obligatory Neo reference" :)
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caseorganic HA
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tantek uses shorthand sometimes when tired
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caseorganic Lol, you used OMS
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tantek who is Isobel Asimov Pushenstein?
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caseorganic my pseudonym for the conference and the country i was from
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tantek wait what
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aaronpk yes
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caseorganic tantek: the entire conference was a play
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tantek did everyone have pseudonyms?
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tantek goodness
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caseorganic tantek: cast list http://2013.realtimeconf.com/#speakers
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aaronpk only the speakers
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caseorganic tantek: yes, all speakers
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aaronpk but everyone was from a different country
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caseorganic tantek: and all guests had flags
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tantek slides look great caseorganic
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caseorganic thank you. lots and lots and lots of work.
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tantek looking forward to watching the video
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caseorganic also, first time doing html slides! feels great and they look great
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caseorganic looking forward to throwing away ppt and converting my old slides so i can centralize all content on my site
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tantek awesome!!!
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caseorganic slower process, but necessary
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caseorganic FREEDOM
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tantek and better than sharecropping on slideshare ;)
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aaronpk slideshare is only as good as slideshare is around :)
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tantek bought by linkedin I think, right?
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aaronpk tantek: I added mf2 to the esripdx blog today! http://pdx.esri.com/blog/2013/10/17/introducting-mapattack/
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tantek sweet!
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aaronpk unfortunately the new auto-parse legacy mf1 class names makes for some weird results
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aaronpk because of the class names the designers chose for things
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tantek really? it shouldn't unless they use a vcard root class name
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tantek I mean, unless a they use a uf1 root class name in general
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aaronpk maybe that's a bug with the parser then
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tantek also - add it here! http://microformats.org/wiki/uf2#Examples_in_the_wild
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tantek aaronpk, could be
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tantek e.g. inside h-entry, only dt-published should work, not dtpublished
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aaronpk specifically "author" and "description" were getting added
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tantek aaronpk - right
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tantek so inside h-entry, only p-author should work, not "author"
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aaronpk hm
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tantek "author" should only work inside "hentry" for backcompat
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aaronpk I sorted out the author one by being explicit. but it's still adding "description" in the parsed version http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpdx.esri.com%2Fblog%2F2013%2F10%2F17%2Fintroducting-mapattack%2F
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tantek but that shouldn't matter if there's a "description" inside an h-entry
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aaronpk ok, probably a bug in the parser then
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tantek "description" should only show up inside an "hentry"
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tantek that's key for clean backcompat
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aaronpk from what I can tell it is mapping legacy class names to new class names
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tantek overmapping
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tantek those mapping should only occur *inside* classic microformats root class names
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tantek regardless - definitely add esri blog and a permalink to first post with microformats to: http://microformats.org/wiki/uf2#Examples_in_the_wild
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aaronpk oh, barnaby is on it already https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2/issues/32
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aaronpk tantek: also I was experimenting with h-product! http://pdx.esri.com/projects/mapattack/
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tantek cool!
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@aldlbot RT @t: Sad: @Dopplr ends 2013-11-01 (via @tomcoates). Treat all silos as caches, nothing more. #ownyourdata & POSSE to silos. (ttk.me t4Sb1) (twitter.com/_/status/391868835143626752)
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@xtof_fr L'écosystème actuel du #quantifiedself cloche... Solution d'@aaronpk : évoluons vers l'#indieweb des objets http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2013/10/11/1/the-future-of-quantified-self-devices (twitter.com/_/status/391941822299140096)
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@_Ereputation RT @xtof_fr: L'écosystème actuel du #quantifiedself cloche... Solution d'@aaronpk : évoluons vers l'#indieweb des objets http://t.co/w3OFgl… (twitter.com/_/status/391942815296798720)
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@FredyFadel RT @xtof_fr: L'écosystème actuel du #quantifiedself cloche... Solution d'@aaronpk : évoluons vers l'#indieweb des objets http://t.co/w3OFgl… (twitter.com/_/status/391949972633313280)
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barnabywalters heads up for anyone who uses php-mf2: latest version (0.2.0) contains breaking changes, if you installed it with "mf2/mf": "*" now is the time to fix the version or update your app before things start breaking
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aaronpk ooh
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barnabywalters lots of good stuff in v0.2.0, including support for the new e-* parsing rules (safe and consistent at last)
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barnabywalters vastly improved classic compatbility
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barnabywalters namespace changes (mf2 => Mf2)
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barnabywalters and a Mf2\parse function which saves you the trouble of making an object when all you want to do is parse mf data
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barnabywalters unless any large changes to the parsing spec happen, the API should be fairly static now
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barnabywalters oh, and *vastly* improved documentation: https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2
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aaronpk yay docs!
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Loqi giggles
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barnabywalters aaronpk: I left BC on by default to help root out bad markup, but improved the way classnames are converted
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barnabywalters so you won’t get random h-card from people using class=author any more
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aaronpk ok. same thing happened with "description", did you see my comment?
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barnabywalters yep, that should be resolved now as well
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barnabywalters as instead of just changing everything in bulk, I restrict the scope of changes
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barnabywalters so class=description will only be changed to p-description under classic root names which have a description property
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aaronpk looks like pin13 already pulled down the changes
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barnabywalters next up is to clean up php-mf2-shim and get it producing consistent markup
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aaronpk oh neat, returns "html" and "value" separately now!
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barnabywalters indeed it does
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aaronpk barnabywalters++
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Loqi barnabywalters has 16 karma
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barnabywalters I figured I should just bundle all the various breaking changes required into one update
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Loqi BUNDLE ALL THE VARIOUS http://loqi.me/86w
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barnabywalters so new e-* parsing rules come along with a free helping of improved API and docs
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barnabywalters one still unresolved thing: when to collapse whitespace in p-* properties
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aaronpk hm yeah not sure
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aaronpk I do feel like I get extra leading and trailing whitespace sometimes, due to indenting of the html tags
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barnabywalters php-mf2 fails a bunch of the official mf2 tests because I don’t collapse whitespace
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barnabywalters but it’s not information I want to throw away
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barnabywalters main use case: publishing syntax highlighted source code
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barnabywalters can’t use e-* as that would pick up the syntax highlighting marku
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barnabywalters *p
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barnabywalters but if p-* strips whitespace, the code is not going to be much use
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barnabywalters also, <pre> elements and poetry, lyrics, etc
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barnabywalters perhaps collapsing whitespace everywhere except <pre> elements would work
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aaronpk shouldn't that just follow HTML rules of whitespace so that it matches what people see?
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barnabywalters aaronpk: yeah, that’s my thinking behind <pre> whitespace, but it’s actually defined by CSS
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barnabywalters e.g. a lot of your and tantek’s notes would look weird with collapsed whitespace
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aaronpk heh all whitespace rules can be modified by css
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barnabywalters nothing to do with HTML, but because of css white-space
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barnabywalters so I think it should be left up to the consumer whether or not to collapse whitespace
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barnabywalters random topic change: any idea when amber’s talk gets posted?
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aaronpk not sure
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barnabywalters raises http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-issues#When_to_collapse_whitespace_in_properties
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barnabywalters aaronpk: okay with you if I make a bunch of breaking changes to php-mf2-shim?
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barnabywalters basically making it consistent with php-mf2 and easier to use
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aaronpk yeah sure, I'm going to have to update p3k for the new php-mf2 anyway
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barnabywalters okay, cool. I’m also considering removing the CSS selector dependency, and making a little function which takes a classname and returns xpath syntax for matching that
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barnabywalters as that’s the only really nasty thing about using xpaths for querying
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barnabywalters IWC UK demonstrated a desire for as few dependencies as possible
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aaronpk it's kind of funny the difference between PHP and things like Ruby and Node in that respect
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aaronpk people have much fewer issues with dependencies in ruby and node because the package managers are much more mature
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barnabywalters even if they’re not nearly as nice to use as composer (AHEM pip)
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aaronpk and there really isn't a culture of "download this code and include it", it's always "add this to your Rubygems file"
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barnabywalters I love using composer, but want as many people as possible to be able to use php-mf2
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barnabywalters if requiring use of composer stops people like adactio from consuming mf data, it’s not something I want to do
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aaronpk it's true
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aaronpk just unfortunate
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barnabywalters yeah :(
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aaronpk even i was really late to the commposer bandwagon, but i like it now
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@_crossdiver The #indieweb wheels are spinning. (twitter.com/_/status/391964707730378752)
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aaronpk brb, getting coffee across the street
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spinnerin aaronpk: Given the gem dependency issues I've seen, you're making PHP sound really bad :)
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barnabywalters spinnerin: I’ve barely used rubygems, but composer is one of the best dependency management systems I’ve ever used
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barnabywalters thing is, lots of people don’t want to use it for one reason or another
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barnabywalters PHP has a mixed history of code sharing and reuse, mostly ghastly, like PEAR and phpclasses.org :/
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spinnerin Ah. It does help to have a common system for handling things.
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aaronpk spinnerin: lol
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aaronpk I wasn't saying anything about composer, just saying that a lot of people who use PHP don't even bother using a dependency management system
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aaronpk spinnerin: out of curiosity, have you seen any alternative dependency manager other than rubygems? maybe something that works more like npm?
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barnabywalters to be fair, if you’re not accustomed to using one it’s a steep learning curve and a lot of work
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spinnerin aaronpk: Nope.
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spinnerin But the kind of work I've been doing, we'd try to stick to the best common option, since the project is likely to get handed off to another team.
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aaronpk I'd be curious to see what it would take to create something closer to npm for ruby
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barnabywalters aaronpk: is it just the UI you’d change, or the package registering and dependency resolving infrastructure?
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aaronpk all of it
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aaronpk actually I don't mind the rubygems.org site, but needs better version/dependency control stuff like npm has
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tantek good morning #indiewebcamp!
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barnabywalters morning tantek
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tantek barnabywalters, well done
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tantek is reading logs
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tantek barnabywalters - yes, this: "if you’re not accustomed to using one it’s a steep learning curve and a lot of work" (re PHP package managers)
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tantek (or package managers in general)
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aaronpk in general, yes. I find it interesting that Ruby and Node.js both grew up with package managers so basically everyone who writes ruby and node are already accustomed to them
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tantek and there are many fewer ruby and node devs
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tantek than php
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barnabywalters man, twitter’s markup is obese. after cleaning, a tweet permalink page weighs in at 2288 lines
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aaronpk true. as much as they'll tell you otherwise.
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tantek and php runs on every cheap webhosting service (ruby and node still require sometimes painful setup)
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tantek barnabywalters - you're right about adactio being a good test case for this sort of thing
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tantek he's quite representative of the far larger number of web designer/developers who maybe do *a little* bit of backend coding here and there
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barnabywalters tantek: yeah, people who don’t want to go through the learning curve of setting up composer but are still super smart and want to consume mf2 data
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tantek which is a lot of people
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tantek heck I myself haven't learned about composer yet
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tantek and I'd rather be coding on my indieweb site than learning more overhead
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aaronpk there's definitely a learning curve to seting up composer, but I'm glad I took the plunge finally. it does make things easier going forward.
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tantek the "just include one file" metric that adactio conveyed at IndieWebCampUK is a key bit of information
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barnabywalters yes, the benefits outweigh the initial upfront cost quickly, if like using lots of dependencies
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barnabywalters s/if/if you
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Loqi barnabywalters meant to say: yes, the benefits outweigh the initial upfront cost quickly, if you like using lots of dependencies
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tantek but maybe most will not be using lots of dependencies
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barnabywalters indeed — so optimise for (or at least accommodate) that case
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aaronpk here are my dependencies https://gist.github.com/aaronpk/40411ff5343c22dd201e
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aaronpk pheanstalk is for my background queueing system
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barnabywalters wow that’s impressive, considering all the stuff p3k does
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barnabywalters taproot’s is much longer
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tantek interesting
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tantek well, both Taproot and p3k do much more than Falcon so I can see there's some advantage to that
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aaronpk oh I lied, the Twitter client should be there too, but I had the twitter client in there before I was using composer
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aaronpk also a markdown parser
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barnabywalters I just use guzzle with an oauth plugin as my twitter/github/whatever client
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barnabywalters (guzzle = one HTTP client to rule them all)
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aaronpk that's all. the rest are my own libraries that are part of p3k
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aaronpk i should look at guzzle. right now I just use curl
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Loqi yea
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barnabywalters guzzle is nice. a little more OO than I’d like, but it does a lot of stuff very well
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aaronpk actually nvm... it's just these libraries that use curl, and I wouldn't want to make them depend on guzzle :)
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tantek the only external code I'm using in Falcon right now is tmhOAuth
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tantek which I've been updating by hand because I don't trust things to not braek
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tantek s/braek/break
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Loqi tantek meant to say: which I've been updating by hand because I don't trust things to not break
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tantek with updates
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tantek especially since OAuth is so damn fragile :(
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tantek so who here is going to IndieWebCampHollywood ?
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tantek I'm making plans :)
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aaronpk raises his hand and also caseorganic's
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aaronpk and davy from our office
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tantek aaronpk - how long will you be in LA? I might extend my stay
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aaronpk i miss dopplr :(
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aaronpk looks like I'm driving to Redlands on Monday morning
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aaronpk so, just there on Sunday, but saying in LA sunday night
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aaronpk updates his RSVP
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tantek aaronpk - do you have a hotel room with a spare bed for Sunday night?
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aaronpk let me check the reservation, not sure what we ended up with
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aaronpk interesting, it says "LIVINGROOM-PRIVATE BEDROM"
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aaronpk Hollywood Hills Hotel
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tantek that sounds like a suite with a couch! :)
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aaronpk sounds like we could probably fit you there on Sunday night!
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aaronparecki.com edited /2013/Hollywood (+411) "update my RSVP to Sunday only, add Amber" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /2013/Hollywood (+0) "move Davy to Sunday only since we're traveling together" (view diff)
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tantek if I go I'll go for both days
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tantek and then I may hang out in Claremont for a while
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tantek aaronpk - how long are you going to be down there, e.g. out in Redlands?
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aaronpk Redlands Monday and Tuesday at the Esri campus all day, flight leaves Ontario Tuesday night
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aaronpk short trip
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barnabywalters okay aaronpk, PR sent https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2-shim/pull/3
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barnabywalters that’s me done for the day — off climbing now
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barnabywalters goodnight all
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Loqi sleep tight!
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tantek barnabywalters goes climbing? did not know that.
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aaronpk wow, tripit parses out the esri travel emails really well
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tantek now if only tripit would do email properly and give you a custom email address to send to like Flickr does for upload by email
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aaronpk heh, yeah the generic "plans@tripit.com" thing seems rather easy to "hack"
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aaronpk if you can even call it that
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tantek yeah
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tantek to forward fake emails to that look like they were being sent to tripit customers, and then pollute their profiles
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tantek btw - aaronpk - I know you are interested in all things phone-call-like - have you tried the new Google Hangouts iOS app? free phone calls to US phonenumbers.
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tantek so now I can make free phonecalls from my iPod to anywhere in the US
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tantek no need to signup for google voice, no need to give google your phone #
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aaronpk wow
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aaronpk oh yeah, would be easy to inject "trip spam" into people's tripit profiles like the google calendar invite hack
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tantek aaronpk - indeed
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tantek.com edited /Events (+102) "UK 2013 was two days, bolden the IndieWebCamp events themselves" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2013/Hollywood (+573) "add self to Sunday & Monday, sort by fullnames per RSVP description, remove ✓ copy/paste from UK RSVP" (view diff)
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tantek !tell shaners I've signed up for IndieWebCampHollywood :) Do you have enough data to decide on whether to make it a one or two day event? Page makes it seem like it is still up in the air and some folks may be travel planning. ;)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@t I'm going to IndieWebCamp Hollywood 2013-11-03. http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/Hollywood Want to #ownyourdata? Join us. cc #realtimeconf (ttk.me t4Sd1) (twitter.com/_/status/392003229728657408)
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@jeena @jcookcc I agree. I think it would make more sense to engage with http://indiewebcamp.com instead. /cc @tobiastom @cjk101010 @graue (twitter.com/_/status/392003583576924160)
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aaronpk huh...
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@jcookcc/status/391994865405292544 (re: tent.io)
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@jcookcc @jeena Not sure if I'm pausing or giving up altogether. Really don't like the attitudes/misleading tendencies of project mgmt. We'll see.
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tantek and that's another that happens with monoculture
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tantek another *thing
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tantek all based on one open source project
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tantek WordPress is the exception, not the rule
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tantek (in terms of actually scaling and succeeding - which doesn't bely the other problems: attack magnet, update maintenance etc.)
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@jeena @t do you have a bot which automatically favorites every tweet which mentions the indieweb url? ;) (twitter.com/_/status/392004400434413568)
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tantek LOL
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aaronpk hahaha
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Loqi awesome
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@t @jeena I favorite by hand. The Loqi bot brings indieweb tweets into our Freenode IRC: http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC Join us! (ttk.me t4Sd2) (twitter.com/_/status/392005707903803392)
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tantek welcome jeena!
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Jeena Hehe thanks.
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bret talking about "why STP in webRTC" at webrtc camp :)
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tantek jeena - logs available too: indiewebcamp.com/irc/today
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Jeena Ah thanks.
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bret SDP*
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Jeena So what are you guys working on nowadays?
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tantek I'm working in figuring out how to automatically send webmentions from my site. (Something that many others here are already doing)
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tantek Working *on
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tantek Jeena, my site runs my personal project called Falcon: http://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon
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Jeena ah that was the easier to implement successor to Pingback, wasn't it?
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tantek And I keep track of what I'm working on next there: http://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon#Working_On
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tantek Yes, webmention is a simplification of pingback
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bret tantek: I was thinking about taking a PuSH approach. Publish a list of webmentions you want sent then ping the mention server which looks at the list to see if there are any new mentions that need sending
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aaronpk bret: yea we've talked about that kind of thing for webmention.io before, right?
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bret similar to how one would publish a push atom feed
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tantek Bret hmm not sure I understand how the server could tell if it was new or not
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bret i think we talked about it
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tantek Needs a writeup and a flow
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bret im not sure, how does push know if the atom feed has new stories?
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aaronpk the server would have to maintain state
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bret hrmm
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aaronparecki.com edited /p3k (-450) "update working on" (view diff)
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Jeena Back in 2006 I wrote a specification to replace the need of Gravatar http://pavatar.jeena.net/spec/ which kind of was in the spirit of indieweb but it never got real adoption
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bret learning more about node.js, my self imposed restrictions are starting to feel way to strict... thinking about moving on to a more capable back end
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Jeena just a couple of weeks ago friends put it on github too https://github.com/pavatar/pavatar
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Jeena and my spec was also heavily inspired by Pingback ^^
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aaronpk ah yeah
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aaronpk we're doing that mostly with an h-card on the home page
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Jeena yeah, 2006 was either before or while you were starting with micro formats I think
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Jeena and my main concern back then was the lack of HTML parsers for PHP
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Jeena there are many of them now and people use many other languages for web programming too so it is a not a issue anymore
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aaronpk we're also starting a good collection of microformats parsers which is even easier to deal with now
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aaronpk takes the whole HTML part out of the picture as far as your code is concerned
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Jeena ah, nice, but it still uses a normal SGML/HTML parser internally?
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aaronpk yeah
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Jeena someone also made a list of many alternatives https://github.com/pavatar/pavatar/wiki/Elsewhere of which I liked webfinger the most (not the .well-known thing in the url but yeah the damage is done already so it doesn't matter anymore)
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aaronpk it's funny how much people want this to exist and yet the only thing to stick has been gravatar
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Jeena hehe yeah
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Jeena And then companies like Github only let you use Gravatars as your avatar, you can't even upload one yourself.
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tantek Aaronpk I'd say indieweb commenting with author avatars working interoperable across several implementations is getting close to "sticking" ;)
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aaronpk it's getting there for sure!
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Jeena Hm where should my hcard be, on my homepage? I have it on the contact page but I assume there it can't be found automatically
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aaronpk but an extremely recent development compared to the timeline of people trying to solve this before
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aaronpk Jeena: yes home page is ideal
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tantek Aaronpk re slow/recent, see #5 here http://tantek.com/2013/284/t1/seven-rules-marketing-ideas-brooklynbeta
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aaronpk Jeena: if you haven't found the microformats parser test yes, you can plug in your URLs to http://pin13.net/mf2 and see the output easily
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aaronpk tantek: lol yes. so true
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Jeena ah hm I see
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Jeena So what exactly am I doing wrong with my hcard so the name is just a long string with all my data in? http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fjeenaparadies.net%2Fcontact%2F
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aaronpk check out http://microformats.org/wiki/h-card for an example
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Jeena oh, ah, it is totally different to what I have been using with the vcard class, need to update that
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cweiske.de edited /webmention (+0) "/* Sending */ s/Services_Pingback/Services_Linkback/" (view diff)
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cweiske.de edited /webmention (+0) "/* IndieWeb implementations */" (view diff)
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Jeena btw. the HTML in http://microformats.org/wiki/h-card is not valid, the <img> lacks the alt attribute
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aaronpk heh
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Loqi benwerd: tantek left you a message on 10/19 at 10:23pm: - awesome, you're using <link href="http://werd.io/webmention/" rel="http://webmention.org/ webmention"/> which defeats all the regexes
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benwerd ha
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benwerd tantek: is that a good thing or a bad thing? ;)
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tantek :)
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tantek longer term, good
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benwerd shorter term, pita? ;)
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benwerd I actually didn't think to check that. The PHP client code I'm using does also use a regexp instead of parsing header links
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tantek jeena - which img tag, this one? <img src="/wiki/skins/Microformats/images/logo.gif" alt="Microformats Wiki"/>
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Jeena no, in the example
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Jeena <img class="u-photo" src="http://example.org/photo.png" />
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tantek ah!
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tantek thanks. fixed.
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Jeena nice
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+89) "hasn't been a stub for a while, add logo" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+65) "add updates / twitter" (view diff)
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tantek interesting approach to dead-permalink rediscoverability: http://jonudell.net/udell/2002-2006-index.html
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Jeena http://indiewebcamp.com/comment is kind of a neat idea, especially because it can be used for everything (kind of like on Facebook but the parent is just a URL or something) I have to admit that it takes quite some time to get your head around it
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Jeena although the index site on aaronpk's website is confusing because it doesn't show the parent posts http://aaronparecki.com/replies
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tantek jeena - indeed, the ability to comment on any URL, not just inside a silo, is quite powerful. And like a web interconnected by hyperlinks, a web interconnected by comments takes quite some time to get your head around .
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@RealtimeConf RT @t: I'm going to IndieWebCamp Hollywood 2013-11-03. http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/Hollywood Want to #ownyourdata? Join us. cc #realtimeconf (ttk.me t4Sd1) (twitter.com/_/status/392066239960322048)
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