#indiewebcamp 2013-10-21

2013-10-21 UTC
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tantek.com edited /permalinks (+1141) "scope existing content in Design" (view diff)
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Loqi add Coping with loss of section with two real world examples, Jon Udell's infoworld blog, microformats tr.im links
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tantek.com edited /permalinks (+129) "/* new URLs with old permalinks in path */ example of dead permalink domain+path in path of new URL" (view diff)
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@brianloveswords RT @t: I'm going to IndieWebCamp Hollywood 2013-11-03. http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/Hollywood Want to #ownyourdata? Join us. cc #realtimeconf (ttk.me t4Sd1) (twitter.com/_/status/392094756366327808)
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tantek.com edited /RSS (+365) "add brief history stub" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Atom (+3463) "update logo, add shutdowns and history section with some dates and links" (view diff)
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tantek !tell caseorganic I've written up a bunch of links on Atom history, including the RSS Atom wars - hope this helps in future iterations of the "What happened in 2003-2007" discussion/slides: http://indiewebcamp.com/Atom#RSS_Atom_wars
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek.com created /Dopplr (+135) "stub" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /dopplr (+20) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Dopplr (+1047) "stub with shutdown, data export URLs" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Atom (+64) "add jonudell.net new permalink for past 2005 blog post" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] http://acegiak.machinespirit.net/2013/10/21/asides-are-being-stupid/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://lifestreamblog.com/my-experience-and-highlights-from-the-2013-quantified-self-global-conference/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (pingback)
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aaronpk Jeena: yeah sorry about that, still working on getting context to display there. I just did it for http://aaronparecki.com/mentions so it won't be too hard now
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cweiske aaronpk, cool thing that realtime-thingy
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Loqi caseorganic: tantek left you a message 3 hours, 56 minutes ago: I've written up a bunch of links on Atom history, including the RSS Atom wars - hope this helps in future iterations of the "What happened in 2003-2007" discussion/slides: http://indiewebcamp.com/Atom#RSS_Atom_wars
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caseorganic !tell tantek - thank you very much! will dive into them now
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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Loqi tantek: caseorganic left you a message 30 minutes ago: - thank you very much! will dive into them now
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tantek :)
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caseorganic !tell tantek https://vimeo.com/m/77352414
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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Jihaisse Hello there
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@Shonzilla .@Dopplr goes offline. Keeping my data online. #ownyourdata It used some open standards that haven't spread much. #OpenID #OpenSocial (twitter.com/_/status/392213028201984000)
tpinto, earplugs, caseorganic, glennjones, bnvk, barnabywalters, adactio and srushe joined the channel
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barnabywalters adactio: you were interested in screen-scraping twitter using php-mf2, right? I finally got around to improving the shim and adding usage examples: https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2-shim
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barnabywalters also: no dependencies apart from latest version of php-mf2, so it should be really easy to install
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adactio barnabywalters: Oh, cool. I'll give that a whirl.
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Loqi tantek: caseorganic left you a message 7 hours, 11 minutes ago: https://vimeo.com/m/77352414
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tantek good morning indiewebcamp, just published a public draft of this, take a look: http://tantek.com/2013/294/b1/export-your-data-from-dopplr
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tantek give it a quick skim and let me know if you see any glaring erros
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tantek s/erros/errors
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Loqi tantek meant to say: give it a quick skim and let me know if you see any glaring errors
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tantek (ironic)
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tommorris tantek: your keyboard shortcuts are a bit OTT. in Firefox for the Mac, up/down and pgup/pgdown trigger the next/prev links
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tantek that is annoying - I need to fix that
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tantek tommorris - reload - fixed
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tommorris tantek: thanks
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tommorris also, exported my Dopplr data.
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tantek cool. save your connections too?
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@indieboxproject Installing #Mailpile via #IndieBox /cc @MailpileTeam. http://indieboxproject.org/blog/2013/10/mailpile-and-indiebox/ #indieweb #pcloud (twitter.com/_/status/392338356031332352)
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@kevinmarks #VRM I'm promoting http://indiewebcamp.com to the VRM+Personal Cloud meeting today (twitter.com/_/status/392341316954095616)
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indiewebcamp-vis testing
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cweiske my site is now technically able to accept webmentions (albeit does not display them yet
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cweiske it only sends me an email). could someone send a webmention to http://cweiske.de/ so we can see if my Services_Linkback library handles webmention properly?
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tantek cweiske - awesome! congrats.
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@jontangerine @aegirthor I’m looking at http://indiewebcamp.com for inspiration. :) (twitter.com/_/status/392372381014298624)
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tantek.com edited /IRC (+54) "put today's log at the top for easier discovery" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2013 (+72) "/* RSVP */ calagator link" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Previous_IndieWebCamps (+2511) "add photos from IndieWebCamp 2013 events, subpages for 2013, 2013 UK" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Issues (-1) "stub" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /problems (+373) "fractional set, see project pages instead" (view diff)
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barnabywalters just watched caseorga_’s talk — excellent stuff!
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tantek.com edited /Main_Page (-152) "update heading for next IndieWebCamp, add UK 2013 to Previous, rm small/neglected pages from home page" (view diff)
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tantek barnabywalters - I'm just watching it now
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tantek am going to update wiki pages accordingly :)
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barnabywalters loving the citations along the bottom
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barnabywalters I wish there was a blue citation bar like that over the rest of reality
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aaronpk caseorga_: ^
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aaronpk awesome
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tantek ok, Glass, turn-on AR-citations
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barnabywalters tantek: yes yes yes
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tantek ok Glass, view citation
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tantek.com edited /videos_about_the_indieweb (+263) "add caseorganic's The Open Web and the Opportunity of Now" (view diff)
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barnabywalters oh wow yahoo pipes still exists
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barnabywalters pity it’s so strongly tied to RSS/ATOM semantics
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tantek barnabywalters - does it still function? can you create a pipe and get any results from it
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barnabywalters tantek: I just made one which consumed the pin13 JSON version of my notes
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barnabywalters but I can’t do anything with them because they want title, pubDate, etc
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barnabywalters ah, but you can remap mf2 to RSS…
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tantek title from p-name, and pubDate from dt-published
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barnabywalters and the debugger updates in realtime!
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barnabywalters what is this magic
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tantek right, map h-entry to RSS
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tantek document your work and I'll add to the h-entry processing/parsing spec for RSS output
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tantek is researching Amber's slides and adding to the wiki slide by slide
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tantek caseorganic - wiki<->slides feedback loop engaged.
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tantek editing /history
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Loqi shaners: bret left you a message on 10/18 at 9:48pm: Interested in meeting up tomorrow for some inidieweb hacking when people are off having fun at Realtime conf?
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Loqi shaners: tantek left you a message 1 day, 2 hours ago: I've signed up for IndieWebCampHollywood :) Do you have enough data to decide on whether to make it a one or two day event? Page makes it seem like it is still up in the air and some folks may be travel planning. ;)
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_6a68 i guess tweetcc.com is gone? (working through the posse to twitter page)
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shaners tantek: i'm open to IWC:H being one or two days. it's no skin off my back either way. it's really up to the group, i guess.
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shaners what're other people thinking?
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tantek shaners - I think as the lead you need to make a call based on the interest shown
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tantek and as the host
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shaners then i'm gonna leave it as two days.
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tantek awesome! update the page and make it a for sure thing
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shaners you choose your own level of involvement in Project Mayhem.
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shaners on it
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tantek sounds like a plan
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barnabywalters so I just made a microformats2 h-feed + h-entry to RSS converter using yahoo pipes: http://pipes.yahoo.com/pipes/pipe.info?_id=afc5568b4e8643bfb05436b1caaf91bc
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barnabywalters this UI is how programming should be done
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tantek barnabywalters - darn - doesn't work for my site :/
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barnabywalters tantek: no h-feed?
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barnabywalters I might be able to add a conditional which detects h-feed…
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tantek I have an h-feed
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tantek I added it a while ago because Sandeep asked me to for his personal reader code
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barnabywalters hm, that’s weird. looking now…
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aaronpk still doesn't have an h-feed
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aaronpk we're going to need to decide real quick whether h-feed is required
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tantek aaronpk - nothing is "required" per se
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tantek we can define tons of default behavior
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aaronpk well, the less that's defined, the harder consuming becomes
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tantek it's all about the use-case
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barnabywalters aaronpk: the hatom spec says use one if you want to give the feed a name, otherwise just use hentry
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tantek aaronpk - no, we'll *define* it explicitly
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tantek but we won't *require* the publisher to mark it up
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tantek we'll define what consumers should do - absolutely
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tantek whether or not publishers provide an explicit h-feed
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aaronpk so, i'm trying to get beeminder to consume my http://aaronparecki.com/metrics page as well as any other microformats2 feeds. but I don't want to tell them to check both for an h-feed or for an array of h-entrys
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shaners i think it should be required *only* if the publisher has multiple feeds on one page (like blog posts in the main, and tweets in the sidebar) and wants them parsed as separate feeds, not a zipped one
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barnabywalters aaronpk: I have some functions in mf2-cleaner which make this easy — like findMicroformatsByType('h-entry')
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tantek aaronpk - you should just be able to point them to a "how to consume h-entry" page
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barnabywalters shaners: I remember talking about that use case before, there are tonnes of issues with it :(
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tantek rather than telling them any specifics in email etc.
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barnabywalters UI issues, that is
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barnabywalters e.g. someone sticks a URL with multiple h-feeds on into a feed reader
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aaronpk tantek: I agree, so far I've only described it conceptually and linked to my feed as an example
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barnabywalters which h-feed to use?
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shaners barnabywalters: tell me more.
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barnabywalters you could give the user a UI to choose, but then that feed has no URI
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tantek alright folks, start iterating the use-cases for consuming feeds: http://indiewebcamp.com/consuming
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barnabywalters making it unsharable between other feed readers
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tantek let's get explicit
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tantek and then we can capture brainstorms on specifics there on the page
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barnabywalters that person can’t send someone else a URL and say “this feed’s really great”
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barnabywalters because there are too many on the page
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barnabywalters without URLs
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tantek barnabywalters - add it to an Issues section at /consuming
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tantek go
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barnabywalters is sure we documented this problem last time somewhere
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barnabywalters looking…
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tantek barnabywalters if you find previous docs, link to them from /consuming
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aaronpk use case: reading posts from people I follow
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tantek caseorganic, slide typo: on "Do you remember?" - Posterous shut down this year (2013) not 2012
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shaners barnabywalters tantek : does URL#ID solve this? isn't' that exactly what #ID in the URL is natively in browsers for?
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tantek aaronpk - great - add it to the wiki page
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tantek let's get this stub started
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tantek shaners I don't know what "this" you're talking about
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shaners tantek: (sorry, i typed to slow and lost context)
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barnabywalters shaners: yeah but then there’s this requirement for people to put id attributes on all h-feeds
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tantek shaners - not your fault, need a URL to point to instead of "this" so you don't have to worry about context
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barnabywalters is working on it
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aaronparecki.com created /consuming (+299) "stub" (view diff)
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shaners tantek: "this" is the problem of => barnabywalters said: "that person can’t send someone else a URL and say “this feed’s really great” because there are too many on the page without URLs"
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tantek shaners - that's a page UI problem
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tantek requiring fragment ids isn't going to fix it
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tantek if the publisher wanted to solve that problem they'd put up a separate page for each visual feed
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tantek best we can do is provide UI guidance for that
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tantek.com edited /history (+1800) "add subsections for years along with silo info from caseorganic RealTimeConf 2013 Do you remember? slide and Wikipedia research" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /consuming (+769) "braindump of multiple feeds issue" (view diff)
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6a68.net edited /Twitter (+123) "add note that tweetcc.com is no more" (view diff)
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tantek well that's messed up (re: tweetcc). hey barnabywalters - can you ping briansuda about that? he co-created that site I believe.
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aaronpk what is/was tweetcc?
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_6a68 tantek: yeah, i was surprised at the lack of any reason: https://twitter.com/Malarkey/status/361844728922259457
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@Malarkey In 2009, @briansuda and I made http://tweetcc.com/ I’m ‘sunsetting’ it at the end of today as it doesn’t really have a purpose anymore.
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tantek a way to CC license your twitter, and for services to discover CC licensed twitter profiles
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aaronpk ah yeah!
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tantek so for example, you could technically quote tweets from those users via the CC license, and not via Twitter TOS
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /consuming (+470) "/* Multiple feeds on one page */ added opinionated rant about intangibility" (view diff)
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tantek so that still has use
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tantek dammit
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tantek goes to grab a permalink
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tantek ah: http://tantek.com/2012/230/t1/tweetcc-cc-license-tweets-quote-embed-indieweb
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_6a68 maybe he would at least consider handing off the domain, or something
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barnabywalters here we go, rather sparse results of earlier discussion: http://microformats.org/wiki/h-feed#What_should_a_subscriber_do_with_a_page_with_multiple_feeds
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barnabywalters is it just me or is indiewebcamp.com really slow right now?
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tantek darnit - that was back in July that Malarkey did that
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tantek so much for replying and asking him not to
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aaronpk barnabywalters: just you, super fast for me :)
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tantek barnabywalters - perhaps you could ping briansuda and see if he can take over tweetcc.com from malarkey?
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barnabywalters tantek: I’ll ask him about it tomorrow
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tantek we should resurrect that and keep it up as a Twitter-TOS workaround
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tantek thank
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tantek s
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Loqi yea
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tantek feel free to pass along: https://twitter.com/t/status/236520355991257088
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@t use http://tweetcc.com to CC license tweets so others may quote/embed yours independent of Twitter's TOS. #indieweb (ttk.me t4KV1)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /consuming (+203) "/* Multiple feeds on one page */ added link to earlier discussion" (view diff)
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_6a68 tantek: yeah, i think he might be a bit fuzzy on the notion of sunsetting, it means "dying a slow death"
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tantek that was no sunset, that was a sudden eclipse
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tantek.com edited /silo (+162) "provide a fairly top level History heading since caseorganic linked to this page in her realtimeconf 2013 slid Do you remember?" (view diff)
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barnabywalters what’s the name for the temporal displacement which happens when you accidentally scrolled up slightly and missed 5 mins of messages?
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tantek.com edited /site-deaths (+117) "cross-linky,linky" (view diff)
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_6a68 barnabywalters: idk, i usually just shake my fist in mute horror and soldier on
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barnabywalters _6a68: ;D
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barnabywalters UI, Y U NO NOTIFY ME
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tantek caseorganic, also Site Deaths page, Posterous shutdown in 2013
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tantek ah, announcement of shutdown was March 12, 2012
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tantek aaronpk - re:email spoofing for TripIt etc. posts, apparently was a problem on Posterous: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posterous#E-mail_spoofing
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barnabywalters since we’re discussing feed consumption, I made this public: http://waterpigs.co.uk/articles/web-dataflow-itches
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /consuming (+180) "/* Use cases for consuming feeds */ added link to article" (view diff)
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aaronpk barnabywalters: awesome
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barnabywalters aaronpk: thanks. now I just have to build it :)
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barnabywalters aaronpk: does p3k sync data between the public server and a local version?
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aaronpk what do you mean?
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tantek.com edited /history (+522) "add AOL Hometown and Posterous per caseorganic realtimeconf 2013 slide Site Deaths and Wikipedia: Posterous" (view diff)
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barnabywalters when you post stuff on your site, do you run a command or something to back them up on your local machine, or vice versa?
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aaronpk oh
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aaronpk no, the entire thing is a git repo, including the posts.
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aaronpk so when I post a new note from the web interface, the server actually does a git commit and push
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tantek.com edited /history (+94) "keep history more notable, site-deaths comprehensive." (view diff)
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barnabywalters so, taproot doesn’t auto-commit, but I have a ./sync command which commits local changes, pulls, sshes into my remote server, commits, pushes + pulls, then updates any dependencies
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barnabywalters are you just running exec to do git commits?
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barnabywalters from PHP?
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aaronpk yeah
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barnabywalters and then I visit for e.g. notes/rebuild-indexes to reindex new stuff
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aaronpk wow
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aaronpk yeah I have a pretty simple queue that does all that kind of stuff
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barnabywalters cool
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tantek.com edited /history (+7) "/* 2008 */ Hometown shutdown with only 2 weeks notice per caseorganic realtimeconf 2013" (view diff)
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aaronpk you should really take a look at beanstalk, it's a dead simple queing system
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Loqi fo sho
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tantek this still makes me sadly LOL: FORTUNATELY I SAVED MY WEBPAGE & TRANSFERRED IT TO GEOCITIES http://caseorganic.com/presentations/2013/10/19/1/files/slides/?full#4
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tantek (nervous crowd laughter in the video)
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aaronpk so much lol
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tantek.com created /Hometown (+531) "stub with embedded screenshot from caseorganic realtimeconf 2013 slides" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk - any idea why the image embeds from caseorganic are so huge? they look like they may be up-sampled 4x, e.g.: http://indiewebcamp.com/Hometown
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tantek (I didn't upload, not my content to upload, just hot-linked)
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tantek (with link to permalink in caseorganic slide deck for context)
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aaronpk yeah, amber usually takes screenshots of things to include in presentations rather than saving original files she found
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aaronpk also the whole presentation was created in powerpoint first, and the images were all exported from powerpoint
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tantek interesting
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tantek feel free to replace with a more 1:1 resolution image
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tantek.com edited /Twitter (+115) "note looking into restoring tweetcc, move TOC down a bit" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /sharecropping (+196) "hotlink image from caseorganic realtimeconf 2013 slide (and link to slide to provide context)" (view diff)
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barnabywalters tantek: heads-up: your homepage has h-feed and hfeed on different elements
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tantek oh snap
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barnabywalters although the new version of phpmf2 shouldn’t be bothered by that, so not sure why it’s still parsing wrong
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tantek.com edited /Twitter (+308) "add history section with early UI and link screenshot to caseorganic realtimeconf 2013 slide for context" (view diff)
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barnabywalters aaronpk: does pin13.net have the latest version of phpmf2 installed?
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tantek barnabywalters - because they're on different elements, it can cause it to look like there's an h-feed inside an h-feed.
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barnabywalters ah, I see the problem — I’m not ignoring classic roots under mf2 roots, only classic properties
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barnabywalters should ignoring classic root classnames under mf2 roots be included in the spec?
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aaronpk barnabywalters: yes I believe so, it should auto-update
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tantek barnabywalters - no, my markup mistake
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barnabywalters once that’s fixed, I updated the pipe to work better and handle presence/absence of h-feed
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tantek takes a break from updating /history and other pages to go fix his own homepage. Ahem.
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barnabywalters this is the best thing yahoo ever made
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barnabywalters why does noone know about pipes any more?
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_6a68 pipes and YQL seem only really loved by ex-yahoos, in my experience
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barnabywalters no idea what YQL is
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_6a68 enjoy exploring, then :-)
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aaronpk don't send barnabywalters down a rabbit hole plz
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_6a68 lol, nerd sniping?
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barnabywalters mmm, YQL looks interesting but not nearly as interesting UI-wise as pipes
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_6a68 less interesting UI-wise, but it's a fantastic data-munging thing to toy with
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tantek wait, YQL still works?!?
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_6a68 tantek: wait, YQL doesnt?
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_6a68 tantek: oh yeah, it does. http://developer.yahoo.com/yql/console/
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barnabywalters in which I rave about yahoo pipes: http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4SeNi5/
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tantek barnabywalters - no more "hfeed"
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tantek I don't know of any legacy "hfeed" consumers, so best to drop it before it becomes a compat issue
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barnabywalters tantek: yay! and the pipe now works with your homepage :)
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Loqi woot
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tantek whoa seriously?
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barnabywalters only hfeed consumer I know of is readability
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tantek barnabywalters - URL? pretty sure they only look for hentry (and hnews)
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barnabywalters oh, maybe I’m confusing hfeed with hatom/hentry
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tantek and sweet! yes the yahoo pipe works with my site now!
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barnabywalters hnews? did that not survive the mf2 conversion, or have we just not converted it yet?
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tantek it didn't because it's not clear *anybody* else was doing anything with it
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barnabywalters cool. h-entry ftw
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tantek right, we really should just roll whatever is useful/necessary from hnews into h-entry on an as needed use-case by use-case basis
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tantek is still sad about sandeep's content not showing up
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tantek on http://www.sandeep.io/
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barnabywalters tantek: yeah, I pinged him about it but no response :( so much great content on there
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tantek uh, barnabywalters - is this a new post type? http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4SYHD2/
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barnabywalters tantek: not sure it has enough traction to become a new post type yet ;)
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barnabywalters I can’t see “grumpy-looking jiggly photos of barnaby” taking off any time soon ;)
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tantek hey I documented /comics when I was the only one posting it, and that caused Ben Werdmuller to add it as well (and he's posted more comics than me at this point)
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tantek is there a more formal name for these "jittergrams" ?
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tantek it's not really a video
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tantek and it's more than a static 2d picture
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tantek barnabywalters - at least start a stub
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barnabywalters sure, if we can come up with a name
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tantek so the second person that comes along with it has a chance of finding it
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barnabywalters 2.5D photos?
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aaronpk i like "jittergram"
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barnabywalters aaronpk: it’s a great name, tied to an app though which is meh :/
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tantek barnabywalters: http://mlkshk.com/3D
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barnabywalters 3D shake — works for me
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barnabywalters nice find
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barnabywalters some of those are amazingly well done
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barnabywalters http://mlkshk.com/p/E0HO in particular
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tantek http://forum.ebaumsworld.com/showthread.php?54386-quot-Wiggles-quot-3d-images-without-the-glasses&s=97ed2f4271feba2f589cbdb9d2626c5d
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barnabywalters jittergram, wiggles, 3D shake
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barnabywalters I prefer 3D shake
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tantek http://gizmodo.com/5897089/17-brilliant-3d-photographs-no-special-tvs-or-glasses-required
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tantek http://www.adorama.com/alc/0011780/article/Wiggle-3D-How-To-Make-Animated-3D-Images
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tantek I like "wiggles"
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barnabywalters maybe 3d photos is more explanatory
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tantek a-ha! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiggle_stereoscopy
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barnabywalters okay, wiggles it is
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barnabywalters wikipedia says so
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aaronpk piku-piku!
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tantek I just saw that!
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tantek piku-piku vs. paku-paku!
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_6a681 ehrmagerd. perker-perker!
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tantek indiewebcamp.com/wiggles
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tantek waits for barnaby to create the page
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waterpigs.co.uk created /wiggles (+1081) "stubbed with examples, description" (view diff)
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barnabywalters tantek: ^
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tantek editing
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /wiggles (+339) "/* See Also */ added how section, links" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /wiggles (+116) "dfn, 2 or more, explicit example URL, explicit WP see also link" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /piku-piku (+21) "r" (view diff)
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barnabywalters goodnight all
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Loqi gute nacht!
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