#indiewebcamp 2013-10-29

2013-10-29 UTC
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tantek.com edited /silo-quits (+321) "add jwz quitting Dropbox" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /silos-quits (+24) "redir a typo I made" (view diff)
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iamshane.com edited /2013/Hollywood () "(-637) IWC:H is *two* days" (view diff)
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shaners aaronpk: just catching up on a few days of logs. and noticed your flights and "trips" (or whatever) plans. i like it.
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shaners you were searching for a good collective name for all kinds of "trips" that wasn't trips.
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shaners i like "travels", plural. or "journeys", plural.
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aaronpk shaners: thanks! yeah I've settled on "travel" now even though it's not a plural noun
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shaners travels is a totally legit plural noun
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shaners like, The Many Travels of Bilbo Baggins
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aaronpk but you wouldn't say "this is one travel"
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shaners sure you could
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aaronpk you could, but you would be wrong
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shaners :P
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shaners travels (noun): she amassed great wealth during her travels: journeys, expeditions, trips, tours, excursions, voyages, treks, safaris, explorations, wanderings, odysseys, pilgrimages, jaunts, junkets
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shaners traveling, touring, sightseeing, backpacking, globe-trotting, gallivanting;
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aaronpk I like "jaunts"
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shaners yeah. it's cute and all. but to me "jaunt" is short.
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aaronpk the pattern I'm trying to follow with my top-level path segments is a plural noun which when singular describes a single item
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aaronpk notes -> note
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aaronpk articles -> article
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aaronpk replies -> reply
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aaronpk presentations -> presentation
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aaronpk events -> event
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shaners me too
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shaners you're not using singular nouns in your URLs, right?
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aaronpk correct
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shaners word
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shaners what's your plan for "audios"
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aaronpk heh
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aaronpk what kind of audio?
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shaners let's say you write and record a song. or a voice memo. or "this crazy noise from the construction across the street"
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aaronpk i think those are all very different things
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aaronpk I wouldn't put them all in the same category
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shaners oh yeah?
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aaronpk I have a couple dozen songs I should probably turn into "posts". right now they are all on one page.
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aaronpk I don't currently have any voice memos I would publish.
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shaners ok. the case of "this crazy noise from the construction across the street"
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aaronpk crazy sounds, I've done that once before. http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2012/11/20/1/berlin-devsummit
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aaronpk I ended up posting it as a note with a URL to the audio
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shaners no canonical url for the audio file itself?
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aaronpk same way I post images embedded in notes
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aaronpk well in this case it's hosted on soundcloud, so not ideal. but I imagine I wouldn't necessarily give the audio its own canonical URL even if it's hosted on my site.
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tantek scrolls up
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aaronpk i'm not sure, it's still something I'm trying to figure out. so I'm just doing whatever in the mean time and I'll see what sticks.
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tantek aaronpk - nice to see you expanding the boundaries with new post type experiments
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shaners aaronpk: when you're here for fhc/iwc, can i get a few minutes of your time to look at my flickr archivr setup, please? i'm doing something wrong and would like an extra set of eyes on it.
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aaronpk shaners: sure thing
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shaners thx
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aaronpk I'll be in town all Sunday. Driving east early monday morning.
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shaners any saturday?
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aaronpk yep of course
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aaronpk I'll be getting in Friday
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shaners k.. thought so.
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aaronpk this is why I needed to save the "trips" slug for my URLs
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aaronpk I want to send you a URL with my trip itinerary that shows my flight in, my hotel info, the farmhouseconf and indiewebcamp events, and my departure
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shaners trips is a kind of meta collection of "jaunts"?
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aaronpk it would basically look like my tag pages, showing all the various posts for that trip
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Loqi SHOW ALL THE VARIOUS http://loqi.me/89u
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shaners Loqi: shhh
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aaronpk a trip is a collection of travel, events, etc
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aaronpk might even include photos and notes (probably carefully curated, since not all notes posted during a trip are relevant to that trip)
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snarfed.org edited /IRC_People (+55) (view diff)
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tantek has anyone here taken a look at getradar.in?
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tantek appears to be a Dopplr replacement - they support importing Dopplr data supposedly
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aaronpk wow it looks like it's trying to completely replicate dopplr
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tantek http://bennolan.com/2013/10/21/remaking-dopplr-in-an-afternoon.html
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aaronpk oh he just made it?
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tantek indeed
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aaronpk funny
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tantek so the friends re-use from Twitter is not something I can work with
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tantek sharing your trips is *very* different than following someone on Twitter
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tantek sure there is some overlap, however there are plenty of (most?) people that the opposites apply
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aaronpk agreed. currently I have 3 trips published on my site publicly. however, I'm waiting to make sure I've implemented authenticated trips properly before adding more flights.
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aaronpk also I plan on showing various levels of detail for each trip and flight depending on who you are
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tantek aaronpk, I could also see wanting to change the "public"ness of trip information based on future / past
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aaronpk the main purpose I'm using my travel permalinks for already is telling people when I'm arriving or when I'll be in town
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aaronpk tantek: interesting point! hadn't considered that yet.
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tantek aaronpk - agreed - that's what Dopplr was really good for
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tantek I'll likely make most of my *future* trip info *private*, and then as I return home, make most of my trip info *public*.
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aaronpk it's funny that already in the day and a half these links have been live I've already shared them with 3 different people and avoided sending them emails or super long text messages
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tantek lower security threat model for past trips than for future trips
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tantek aaronpk - that's great!
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aaronpk yeah, I can totally see hiding flights/trips until after they're over. also the flight number is not really relevant after the trip is over either.
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aaronpk and showing my seat is really only relevant to people i'm traveling with, so nobody else should see it even though it's not a "security" or "privacy" thing
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tantek aaronpk - seat and flight #s are a security thing because of griefing potential
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aaronpk wow you'd have to be pretty hardcore to track down my flight # and seat and buy a ticket next to me to grief me
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tantek aaronpk - unfortunately there are other attack vectors.
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aaronpk well said
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KevinMarks importing friends from foursquare would make more sense
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aaronpk KevinMarks: true! at least there's some similar levels of trust in that group of people
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tantek KevinMarks - agreed.
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KevinMarks is there an indieweb pattern here of delegating friends lists?
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shaners KevinMarks: tantek and I talked through an idea while in pdx for xoxo, but built nothing (or documented the idea). so... not really?
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KevinMarks grrr. GoDaddy (which I have things registered at for legacy reasons) won't let me use nameservers with hyphens in
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tantek KevinMarks - what's the use case?
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KevinMarks which Amazon have
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tantek (for delegating friends lists) ?
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KevinMarks the use case is co-opting an existing friend graph (at twitter, foursquare etc) rather than having to maintain rel-friend links
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KevinMarks like IndieAuth does
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tantek IndieAuth hides a backend auth provider though, and conditionally so, with fallbacks.
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tantek so that's a bit different
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KevinMarks challenge is that the friend graph may not have urls
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tantek the closest we have to re-using existing friend lists (it's not a graph, it's just a list) e.g. at Twitter is some of the spam brainstorming
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KevinMarks true about list
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tantek e.g. http://indiewebcamp.com/spam#Twitter_follows_follows
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tantek KevinMarks - stop calling it graph. That was misframing propagated by Zuck & co.
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tantek (since like 2008)
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KevinMarks OpenSocial we had to make the ID not be a URL in the friend list
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KevinMarks well, FB has a graph - in principle you could ask for 2nd degree connections
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KevinMarks in practice they don't do that
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KevinMarks I did say list to start with.
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KevinMarks rel-me is a graph
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KevinMarks rel-friend (etc) is
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KevinMarks a list of friends implicitly has multiple urls per friend due to rel-me
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tantek KevinMarks - rel-me itself may form the basis of a graph, but that result is still a single node when you're talking about "people", which "friends" is a special case thereof.
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tantek thus a friend list is still a list, not a graph, for any/all computational purposes.
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KevinMarks agreed
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KevinMarks the challenge is what the unambiguous representation of the friend is
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KevinMarks if you want to do set logic on the lists (friends in common etc)
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tantek sounds like you're making it harder than it needs to be
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tantek I think when you focus on a specific use-case, the problem is greatly simplified
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tantek so rather than solving anything in abstract, e.g. "friends in common", just code what you need for your next important use-case for yourself and see what you figure out.
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KevinMarks I'm still fighting my own domain DNS crap :(
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KevinMarks also playing the 'where the heck did I register that domain?' game
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tantek !tell benwerd I noticed you're using Disqus on your previous personal URL benwerd.com, e.g. http://benwerd.com/2013/03/14/silos-the-open-web-and-selfdogfooding/ - beware recent Disqus ad sneakery controversy: https://twitter.com/fdevillamil/status/394368809597149184
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Jihaisse Hello
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@DatenundGesundh Lectures from the Data and Health Symposium @ETH are now online http://www.datenundgesundheit.ch/2013/10/29/vortrage-des-symposiums-data-and-health/?lang=en #persmed #genomics #ownyourdata #ethics #bigdata (twitter.com/_/status/395102349859237888)
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@ehafen RT @DatenundGesundh: Lectures from the Data and Health Symposium @ETH are now online http://www.datenundgesundheit.ch/2013/10/29/vortrage-des-symposiums-data-and-health/?lang=en #persmed #genomics #ownyourdata… (twitter.com/_/status/395102628558155776)
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KevinMarks yay - http://kevinmarks.com now is me again
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Loqi giggles
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neuro` KevinMarks: congrats.
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neuro` KevinMarks: DNS setup works like a charm here.
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KevinMarks this was a long and tangled path, eventually leading to a godaddy account I'd forgotten about
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Jihaisse what was the problem ?
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KevinMarks I registered the domain ages ago
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KevinMarks I had the email admin set to a domain I don't have control over any more;
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KevinMarks it was very complicated
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Jihaisse ok
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KevinMarks hm
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KevinMarks pondering Ghost and whether giving them the full indieweb markup makeover is worth it
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KevinMarks it's a cute little blogging platform, but markdown bugs me
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pdurbin KevinMarks: what do you prefer to markdown?
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cweiske I prefer rST, but don't its link markup
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cweiske I like it because you have so much more possibilities of marking up things
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cweiske they have a defined structure for extensions
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cweiske we use it to write docs for our software @work, convert it automatically to wiki formats (e.g. confluence) and deploy it automatically to our customer's wikis
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cweiske german blog post: http://www.netresearch.de/blog/typo3-doku-deployment/
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cweiske markdown doesn't even have definition lists
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cweiske or tables
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barnabywalters KevinMarks: RE ghost + mf2, I sent a PR and they’re not interested at the moment: https://github.com/TryGhost/Casper/pull/29
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barnabywalters but feel free to use my fork of Casper as the basis of an indiewebified theme if it’s any help
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barnabywalters (see also http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4SZ87X/)
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pdurbin I always use autolink in markdown if it's supported
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tommorris barnabywalters: some kind of mashup of Ghost Caspar and Wordpress' P2 would be interesting ;)
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pdurbin cweiske: we just moved our docs to sphinx so I'm trying to get into rST a bit. Markdown seems so much more simple. I like Markdown's "plain text email" philosophy.
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Jihaisse why markdown is better than wysiwyg ?
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@mabulledu http://mabulledu.net/overexposure-sick-of-sarah/ #test #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/395150051497873408)
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pdurbin Jihaisse: I'm not sure what you mean. I can edit markdown in vim
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@bru RT @t: Updated: How To Export Your Data From Dopplr http://tantek.com/2013/294/b1/export-your-data-from-dopplr @dopplr shutdown in 4 days. #ownyourdata #indieweb (ttk.me t4Sm1) (twitter.com/_/status/395163153514119168)
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@abragad RT @t: Updated: How To Export Your Data From Dopplr http://tantek.com/2013/294/b1/export-your-data-from-dopplr @dopplr shutdown in 4 days. #ownyourdata #indieweb (ttk.me t4Sm1) (twitter.com/_/status/395163204277792768)
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Jihaisse pdurbin: in a blog plateform, why using a markdown is better than using a wysiwyg editor ?
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pdurbin Jihaisse: it's probably worse, not better. but this is how I like to blog (i.e. not with wordpress): http://tom.preston-werner.com/2008/11/17/blogging-like-a-hacker.html
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cweiske Jihaisse, I don't like to use a mouse when writing text
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tommorris WYSIWYG doesn't deal with semantics well.
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tommorris how does one represent an abbreviation in WYSIWYG?
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tommorris http://enwp.org/WYSIWYM > WYSIWYG ;)
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neuro` Most WYSIWYG editors are actually WYGIWYD
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neuro` What You Get Is What You Deserve
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tommorris WYGIVRTWYT - What you get is vaguely related to what you typed.
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neuro` Something like this yeah
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tommorris tests out http://www.texts.io/
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Jihaisse :)
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Jihaisse yeah, but for lambda people, it's not really easy
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tantek KevinMarks - congrats on getting KevinMarks.com back!
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tantek is there anything about that process you can document publicly to help out other indieweb folks?
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pdurbin easier to spell than "Epeus' epigone" ;)
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tantek.com edited /Disqus (+1510) "document recent Disqus ad sneakery criticism with citations and embedded screenshots" (view diff)
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tantek pdurbin :)
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tantek !tell benwerd: Ok I wrote up the disqus controversy on the wiki page to make it easier to find, since searching for "disqus" in Google (even Google news) just brings up every site that *uses* Disqus: http://indiewebcamp.com/Disqus#Displays_ads_on_site_to_public_but_not_owner
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek.com edited /Disqus (+12) "/* See Also */ silos" (view diff)
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tantek hey bnvk - how's your post / reply-context markup going?
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bnvk tantek: I haven't worked on it since yesterday, I'd like to get to it over the weekend but it's unlikely since there is a huge music festival taking over Reykjavik and I have friends from US in town for it :/
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tantek bnvk - should take like 5 minutes!
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bnvk hehe, ok
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barnabywalters bnvk: I’m always around to help with mf2 stuff too if you need it :)
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tantek yes :)
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bnvk cool, thanks!
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bnvk you guys rule
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barnabywalters pop into the office sometime :)
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bnvk I should / will do that!
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Loqi I agree
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tantek bnvk - say hi to the folks in Iceland from the SF Embassy for me ;)
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bnvk lol
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bnvk SF Embassy?
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barnabywalters oh, they’re actually coming here for a movie screening on thurs
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barnabywalters (here being the office)
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bnvk who?
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barnabywalters some of the people from SF Embassy
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barnabywalters brian knows them
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tantek bnvk - seriously - with barnabywalters and me here, it should take you mere minutes to update your microformats2 markup on your permalinks
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bnvk whoa, this is the first i'm hearing of this week
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bnvk there's so much going on in lil Reykjavik
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barnabywalters bnvk: you could also use this as a way to test http://indiewebify.waterpigs.co.uk/validate-h-entry/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbrennannovak.com%2Fnotes%2F338
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barnabywalters now with sample code, black boxes and small-caps
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bnvk ok, lookin into it all
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bnvk that's coming along really nice
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bnvk tantek: barnabywalters: is there any strictness about nesting of containers with MF or does it look recursively
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tantek bnvk - they work just like nested HTML elements
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barnabywalters child microformats don’t have to be on child elements of the parent though
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tantek do you have a specific question?
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tantek barnabywalters - that's a *very* confusing statement.
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tantek please restate it in a positive way
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bnvk right right, but I mean- can I do the "p-author p-name" x number of children deep inside of the "h-entry" ?
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barnabywalters child microformat root classnames can be on any descendant HTML element of the parent root classname
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barnabywalters e.g. div.h-entry > div > div.p-author.h-card is fine
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bnvk "can be on" or rather "can be inside of" ?
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bnvk ok, that's what i'm asking :)
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tantek bnvk you can put microformats property class names on any descendant inside a microformats root class name element, WITHOUT any intervening microformats root class names in the descendent chain
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tantek bnvk "can be on" can be confusing
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bnvk yah, exactly what I mean
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barnabywalters http://waterpigs.co.uk/php-mf2/ is a good sandbox for this kind of experimentation
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tantek however you CANNOT put a microformats property class name for its root class name on the *same* element, e.g. this is wrong: <span class="h-card p-name"> <-- won't work.
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barnabywalters it’s not yet updated to v0.2.0 yet though
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bnvk hrm, check http://indiewebify.waterpigs.co.uk/validate-h-entry/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbrennannovak.com%2Fnotes%2F338 now, is that a bug or am I missing things?
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tantek when you put a microformats property and root class name on the same element, it embeds that root microformat as a value of that property class name, which then is a part of whatever root class name is above it (nearest ancestor root class name)
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barnabywalters oops, looks like a bug :)
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bnvk tantek: yah, I get that part about multiple MF on same element
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barnabywalters http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fbrennannovak.com%2Fnotes%2F338
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tantek bnvk - it's not about multiple microformats on the same element
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tantek so that makes me thing there's still confusion
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bnvk well, MF with a hierarchy is more what I mean
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tantek bnvk - from that pin13 URL - you're putting h-cite and h-entry on the same element, which is not what your post means
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bnvk I get that multiple MF which are different "levels" can exist on the same element
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tantek bnvk - they can, but the uses for that are quite rare
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tantek if you're doing that, you're likely making a mistake
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bnvk ah, should be just "h-cite" right?
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tantek e.g. this is wrong: class="note-reply-context p-in-reply-to h-entry h-cite"
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barnabywalters see also http://indiewebcamp.com/reply-context#Markup
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tantek it's making the error I pointed out above about <span class="h-card p-name"> <-- won't work.
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tantek you're putting "p-in-reply-to h-entry" on the same element which is wrong
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tantek p-in-reply-to is supposed to be a property of the h-entry
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tantek which means it must go on an element *inside* the h-entry
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tantek or rather, the h-entry must be *outside* the element with p-in-reply-to
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bnvk hrm, I was copying that "p-in-reply-to h-entry" on the same element from barnabywalters implementation
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bnvk doh, wait, that's h-cute
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bnvk cite
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tantek bnvk - sounds like a misreading of barnaby's implementation
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bnvk yah
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bnvk :P
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tantek look closely at the first two lines of code here: http://indiewebcamp.com/reply-context#Markup
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tantek note that the h-entry is OUTSIDE the p-in-reply-to
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tommorris Ooh. indiewebify.waterpigs.co.uk? that's nifty.
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tommorris barnabywalters++
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Loqi barnabywalters has 18 karma
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bnvk I think the confusion (for me) stems from a seeming incongruity with the following: "h-entry > h-cite > p-author" then the author of the actual post is just "h-entry > p-author"
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bnvk rather than having it's own more granular container
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tantek each *does* have its own granular container
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tantek h-cite > p-author is the author you are citing, not you
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bnvk yes yes
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barnabywalters this post is in reply to a post by this author
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barnabywalters as opposed to
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barnabywalters this post is by this author
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tantek the property applies to the nearest root ancestor. where's the incongruity?
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bnvk but, the reply context is 3 levels deep to get to the p-author where as for the normal (non reply entry) it's only 2 levels of "required" MF tags
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tantek in both cases there are only two levels. the root class name element, and the property class name element.
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tantek any intervening elements don't matter (as long as they themselves don't have root class names)
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bnvk no, the from the "root" being h-entry in the reply context p-author is 3 levels?
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tantek bnvk - no. only element with microformats class names on them add to "levels"
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bnvk yes, that IS what I am saying
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tantek the reply-context h-cite's p-author has NOTHING to do with the h-entry above
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bnvk I get that
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tantek from the h-entry's perspective, it just has an embedded h-cite, it knows/cares NOTHING about what's inside it
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bnvk I think i'm just thinking about this wrong
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tantek each h-* class wrap all the p-* inside it so any further up the chain h-* parents don't see them
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tommorris would something like <a rel="author" href="#me"> work?
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tantek each h-* class is a wrapper
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tantek tommorris - what would do or mean?
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tommorris I have a footer on the page with my details. I want to link to it rather than have an embedded hCard in each post
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tantek tommorris do you mean home page?
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tantek in that case maybe you mean: <a rel="author" href="/#me">
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tantek (you were missing the "/" before the #me)
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tommorris tantek: no, on every page, at #me there's a footer element which is an hCard
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tantek I don't think we support doing anything with any fragments in the current authorship algorithm
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barnabywalters okay, http://indiewebify.waterpigs.co.uk/validate-h-entry/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbrennannovak.com%2Fnotes%2F338 should give more useful feedback upon finding posts where the author is just a string
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barnabywalters instead of failing, which is what was happening before
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bnvk yah, i think i've got the structure about right
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tantek barnabywalters - hey that's pretty slick
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bnvk trying to fix my datetime value and add a url
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barnabywalters tantek: that’s the plan :)
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barnabywalters thanks
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tantek barnabywalters - I'd dump the rel=tag suggestion - we have evidence that mixing rel and class confuses authors, and they're unlikely to get the URL structure right for a rel-tag anyway.
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barnabywalters bnvk: woah, looking way better now!
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tantek just use p-category
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barnabywalters okay, noted
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barnabywalters btw there is a GH repo for this so you can make copy edits via the web UI
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barnabywalters at some point we’re either going to have to make editing it easier or link off to the wiki everywhere
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tantek bnvk - you should use "p-in-reply-to h-cite" instead of "p-in-reply-to h-entry"
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tantek it's not an h-entry because it's not your content. it's you citing someone else's content so that's why it should be an h-cite
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barnabywalters https://github.com/indieweb/indiewebify-me/blob/master/templates/validate-h-card.html.php
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bnvk dah, yah... forgot that element
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tantek barnabywalters - would be cool to add reply-context checking to the valid-h-entry too!
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tantek if it finds an in-reply-to property, it can suggest marking it up as an h-cite
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barnabywalters tantek: it’s next on the list! gets a bit complex as it’s basically the same thing nested
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aaronpk that validator is sweet
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tantek and if it finds it improperly marked up as a p-in-reply-to h-entry, then it can flag that as an error!
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tantek aaronpk - totally
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barnabywalters aaronpk: there’s an h-card one too: http://indiewebify.waterpigs.co.uk/validate-h-card/
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aaronpk love the prompts for making it more complete!!
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tantek barnabywalters please add these to microformats.org/wiki/validators
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tantek those are amazing
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barnabywalters should these go in a new section for vocab-specific validation UIs?
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barnabywalters oh, there’s already one
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barnabywalters will read the whole page before asking questions from now on
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tantek :)
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tantek in other news - was just seriously badly bitten by Gmails new inbox sorting
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tantek Primary | Social | Promotions
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tantek turned it off and finding all kinds of critical stuff I missed because it got auto-filed in Promotions
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aaronpk wow
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tantek yeah :(
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aaronpk wonders what kind of critical emails tantek receives given his strong dislike for email
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tantek aaronpk, just posted. https://twitter.com/t/status/395214891692605440
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@t #Gmail automatic inbox sort
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aaronpk ah yeah
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Jihaisse tantek: there is a missing / in your minified url : https://twitter.com/t/status/395214891692605440 (ttk.me t4Sn2)
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@t #Gmail automatic inbox sort
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aaronpk :)
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tommorris tantek: fastmail is a big improvement IMHO
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tommorris and my utter hatred for email isn't far off yours. ;)
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@brennannovak @t I hear some people are working on a better email client... might even have some #indieweb features ;) (twitter.com/_/status/395216226802077696)
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aaronpk bnvk: can you make my email less like email?
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bnvk yes
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aaronpk excellent
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bnvk I'm working on a blog post outlining that very thing
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bnvk barnabywalters: hrm, I can't seem to get the validator happy with publication datetime
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barnabywalters bnvk: have a look at http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fbrennannovak.com%2Fnotes%2F338
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bnvk I'll come by the office in a few minutes
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barnabywalters it’s being parsed as a property of your h-card
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bnvk ah, so that's "wrong" hierarchy
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bnvk brb
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tommorris barnabywalters: http://indiewebify.waterpigs.co.uk/validate-h-entry/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftommorris.org%2Fposts%2F8618 ;)
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barnabywalters tommorris: interesting! not sure what’s up with author there
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tommorris I don't have an hCard in the h-entry
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barnabywalters ah, I’m checking something wrong
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barnabywalters yeah, it should prompt you to add one
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barnabywalters there are lots of nested ifs in PHP template code at that point
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tommorris I really want to reference the one on the page already. ;)
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tantek jihaisse - it's a permashortcitation, not a minified URL, by design: http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#POSSE_entire_note_to_twitter
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barnabywalters tommorris: http://indiewebify.waterpigs.co.uk/validate-h-entry/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftommorris.org%2Fposts%2F8618 now excitedly prompts you to add authorship markup :)
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tantek nice
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tommorris barnabywalters: handy. but we really need to sort out microformats-2 include pattern - itemref or object or something
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tommorris having an hCard in every entry when there's already a page-level author seems DRY violating to me
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barnabywalters tommorris: my biggest issue with the include pattern is recursion, and JSON’s inability to do recursion
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barnabywalters so we’d have to limit it to one level
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barnabywalters tommorris: there’s always h-feed > p-author, with h-entries as siblings
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tommorris I could plonk h-feed on <body> ;)
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barnabywalters that only makes sense if it is actually a feed
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barnabywalters for h-entries, put h-entry on the body
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barnabywalters then the author being outside the .h-entry element is no longer a problem
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tantek barnabywalters - would adding fragment support to the authorship algorithm be too hard? we already have fallback to rel-author
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barnabywalters tantek: I’m meh about mf fragment parsing. fragments are intangible, tricky to understand
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barnabywalters widely misunderstood
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tantek agreed, my worry too.
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tantek barnabywalters - yeah, I tend to agree that <body class="h-entry"> is the right answer to permalink pages
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tantek good call
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barnabywalters I like the mf approach of “a page is a thing” as opposed to the more Semweb approach of “each thing on a page with an @id or @resource is a thing”
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barnabywalters pages are tangible, ids/“resources” not so
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barnabywalters and putting root classnames on the body element just strengthens that approach
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tantek also ids/resource are more fragile
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tantek barnabywalters - agreed about strengthens approach.
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barnabywalters @resource is *completely invisible*
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tantek also the <body class="h-*"> pattern is a path out of the OGP metacrap mess.
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Jihaisse tantek: oh, ok… didn't know that
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tantek.com edited /Twitter (+212) "/* POSSE entire note to twitter */ add explicit subhead to link to why permashortcitation" (view diff)
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tantek Jihaisse - in particular, see why: http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#Why_permashortcitation_instead_of_a_link
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glennjones hi all, looking coding up checkins pages on my site, is there any standard format i.e. h-event ? Ben is using a h-entry with a geo in the e-content http://werd.io/2013/checked-into-papalote-mexican-grill
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tantek glennjones - had a look at http://indiewebcamp.com/checkin ?
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tantek glennjones - do you have mockups for how you want your checkins to look?
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tantek the UX of a checkin post is more important than the markup
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glennjones tantek it simple geo(as a map), date time venue name(optional) and comment(optional) - feels like an event
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tantek except that it's in the past
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tantek and not something you invite people to
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tantek not something you RSVP to
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tantek a checkin can be a post that there *was* an event, but a checkin is no more an event than a Tweet is an event
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tantek.com edited /posts (+47) "add explicit subhead Inferring post kinds from properties so we can discuss it in particular" (view diff)
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tantek glennjones - also: http://indiewebcamp.com/posts#Inferring_post_kinds_from_properties
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tantek a checkin is merely a *note* with a *location* that's an explicit *venue*
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tantek at least last time aaronpk and I brainstormed about this
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tantek don't know if he's changed his opinion since
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tantek also - how is tommorris marking up his checkins?
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tantek e.g. http://tommorris.org/posts/8074
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tantek interesting, tommorris, consider adding p-location to this: <div class="h-card checkin">, e.g. <div class="p-location h-card checkin">
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tantek to make it explicit that the post happened at that location
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tantek glennjones - can you add the Ben Werdmuller h-entry checkin example you found to this section in the wiki? http://indiewebcamp.com/checkin#People_actively_publishing_check-in_data
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glennjones A checkin does has a strong like between the date time and location, I just think that h-event expresses that. The two other unsaid things is that I was there and its in the past
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tantek barnabywalters - you were looking into checkins at some point too
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tantek it looks like we have 3-4 implementations of indieweb checkins now, but no guidance on markup on : http://indiewebcamp.com/checkin
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glennjones Yes I will add the examples onto the wiki for discussion
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tantek do you know if we put checkin markup / guidance brainstorming somewhere else?
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tantek thank you glennjones
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tantek it's good to capture multiple perspectives
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barnabywalters RE checkins: see http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/?tagged=checkin
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barnabywalters http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/?tagged=location also has non-checkin posts with location data attached
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barnabywalters looks like I’ve got h-entry > p-location.h-adr.h-geo
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (-489) "/* Working On */ got this working a few days ago: pre-fill in-reply-to field with p-in-reply-to URLs from h-entry of the current post. not really a feature, just one fewer inconvenience." (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /micropub (+654) "Form markup first approach" (view diff)
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bnvk okie, that's enough MF tinkering for today
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bnvk "it'll just take 5 minutes" he said... ;)
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tantek it would have - but there was pre-existing confusion we had to overcome ;)
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barnabywalters (yoda voice) you must unlearn what you have learned
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tantek barnabywalters++
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Loqi barnabywalters has 19 karma
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tantek barnabywalters - what are the tools/code you have that does original-post-disocvery and rel-syndication discovery?
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barnabywalters OPD code not all currently open source, PHP version available here: http://waterpigs.co.uk/services/original-post
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barnabywalters js version locked up in weave: http://github.com/indieweb/weave
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tantek hmm
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barnabywalters rel-syndication discovery and validation is in indiebify.me but it’d be trivial to move to a new package
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barnabywalters it’s only in there for convenience during development
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+559) "/* Working On */ reclarify original post discovery and rel-syndication implementation tasks, reprioritize them higher since they should be easier to implement, and immediately improve posting interface for me (reduce steps & stress)" (view diff)
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barnabywalters which reminds me, I need to convert the pseudocode algorithms on the mf wiki into prose algorithms people can actually recreate
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barnabywalters oops, actual URL: https://github.com/barnabywalters/weave
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barnabywalters rel-me stuff is in here: https://github.com/indieweb/indiewebify-me/blob/master/src/RelMe.php
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tantek rel-syndication is what I was looking for
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barnabywalters mainly starting at line 94
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barnabywalters tantek: original post discovery? at the moment my code is horribly messy and non-spec-compliant
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barnabywalters working only for twitter
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barnabywalters at the mo I’d recommend using my /services/original-post endpoint
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barnabywalters then as we incrementally improve it I’ll release it as a package
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tantek doing replies right is a lot of work
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tantek lots of details to get right, especially with POSSE involved
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tantek making more sense why no one has previously figured out real workable blog to blog commenting before.
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tantek barnabywalters, rel-syndication discovery should be easier
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tantek (easier than original post discovery)
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tantek since the indieweb person controls the source side of the rel-syndication parsing challenge
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tantek original-post-discovery is hard because you're trying to discern information from a silo permalink which we have no control over the markup thereof
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+369) "/* Working On */ subheads since working on so many things, move rel-syndication to top, a few minor edits" (view diff)
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tantek also I'm trying to document the reasoning for each step of implementing replies so that the next person/people that come along will hopefully both understand it better, and feel that the work is justified by actual needs / uses
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tantek so much replies work to do: http://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon#improve_replies_details
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tantek writing all this out makes me even more impressed with all the stuff you guys (aaronpk, barnabywalters, tommorris, etc.) have gotten working
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tantek good reason to POSSE to forums: http://www.zdnet.com/apple-censors-lawrence-lessig-over-warranty-information-ios7-mess-grows-7000022533/
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_6a68 tantek: wow, that's a really good point. how do you even go about doing that? post in the forum with a permalink back to your site?
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_6a68 i'd never thought about POSSE forum/stackoverflow/etc posts, but it's a great idea
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tantek bingo
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tantek aaronpk is POSSEing to github already
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_6a68 whoa rly
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_6a68 i love the indieweb worldview <3
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/github#POSSE_to_GitHub
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tantek boom
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tantek :D
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_6a68 zomg, aaronpk's site is just so pretty
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_6a68 thanks for the link tantek :-D
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@t Why not to upgrade to iOS7, ht @benwerd http://www.zdnet.com/apple-censors-lawrence-lessig-over-warranty-information-ios7-mess-grows-7000022533/ and POSSE to forums http://indiewebcamp.com/github#POSSE_to_GitHub #ownyourdata (ttk.me t4Sn4) (twitter.com/_/status/395254683495059456)
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@aral RT @t: Why not to upgrade to iOS7, ht @benwerd http://www.zdnet.com/apple-censors-lawrence-lessig-over-warranty-information-ios7-mess-grows-7000022533/ and POSSE to forums http://indiewebcamp.com/github#POSSE_to_GitHub #ownyourdata (ttk.me t4Sn4) (twitter.com/_/status/395256269327851520)
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_6a68 tantek: related question: if you POSSE to forums, what about IRC?
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tantek IRC is more like a commons
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/commons
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tantek forums are more like silos
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tantek at least freenode IRC and #indiewebcamp in particular
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_6a68 ah, I see what you mean
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tantek logs are archived publicly so anyone can get them
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tantek but yes - a corporate IRC channel / server would make sense as a POSSE destination as well
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_6a68 right, there's no canonical link and no central control of the content in the case of freenode
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_6a68 cool, thanks!
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KevinMarks now I have my domain back, I can get to self hosting, which is why I looked at Ghost.
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@taylorjessica92 RT @t: Why not to upgrade to iOS7, ht @benwerd http://www.zdnet.com/apple-censors-lawrence-lessig-over-warranty-information-ios7-mess-grows-7000022533/ and POSSE to forums http://indiewebcamp.com/github#POSSE_to_GitHub #ownyourdata (ttk.me t4Sn4) (twitter.com/_/status/395257327710113792)
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tantek !tell benwerd,barnabywalters - here's an original-post-discovery challenge - how do we find benwerd's original posts from his FB POSSE copies e.g.: https://www.facebook.com/ben.werdmuller/posts/10100631599571559
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@DaConPP RT @t: Why not to upgrade to iOS7, ht @benwerd http://www.zdnet.com/apple-censors-lawrence-lessig-over-warranty-information-ios7-mess-grows-7000022533/ and POSSE to forums http://indiewebcamp.com/github#POSSE_to_GitHub #ownyourdata (ttk.me t4Sn4) (twitter.com/_/status/395258922669703168)
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tantek.com edited /rel-syndication (+30) "/* See Also */ original-post-discovery" (view diff)
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tommorris wonders if indiewebsters might be interested in http://tommorris.org/posts/8619 ;)
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@toobdesign RT @t: Why not to upgrade to iOS7, ht @benwerd http://www.zdnet.com/apple-censors-lawrence-lessig-over-warranty-information-ios7-mess-grows-7000022533/ and POSSE to forums http://indiewebcamp.com/github#POSSE_to_GitHub #ownyourdata (ttk.me t4Sn4) (twitter.com/_/status/395260271947956224)
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tantek tommorris - is it open source that people are running on their own domain?
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tantek otherwise, eh
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tantek meh
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tantek bnvk - been looking at your note/reply markup on https://brennannovak.com/notes/338 - nice job!
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bnvk tantek: it's coming along :)
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tommorris tantek: any open source. I'm documenting a vim plugin at the moment, but documenting our own stuff is good too
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tantek I'd say documenting the stuff you live & breathe is far more important than any other open source
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tantek bnvk - couple of suggested improvements for your h-cite
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tantek the <a class="p-summary p-name p-content" href="http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk...
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KevinMarks a checkin is an event for as long as you're still there - this is the foursquare case. If you have an endtime, RSVPs make sense until you leave
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tantek should be <a class="p-summary p-name p-content u-url" href="http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk
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KevinMarks or the neo-dopplr one where it indicates arrival in a city for a few days
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tantek bnvk - and the publisher reference: <a class="u-url p-author p-name" href="https://brennannovak.com/people/thetelegraph" target="_blank">The Telegraph</a>
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tantek bnvk should be: <a class="p-publisher h-card" href="https://brennannovak.com/people/thetelegraph" target="_blank">The Telegraph</a>
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tantek bnvk though I noticed that that link just goes to your home page which isn't the best experience, so this would be better in that case: <span class="p-publisher h-card">The Telegraph</span>
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tantek bnvk - hope that helps
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bnvk cool, i'll update :)
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tantek great! this is looking much better now: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https://brennannovak.com/notes/338
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tantek there are some duplicates in there you may want to take a look at
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tantek but most consuming applications I think will handle that np
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aaronpk bnvk: I also noticed you're still using myopenid.com which is going to shut down soon! Luckily there's an easy replacement :) http://indiewebcamp.com/indieauth#Use_IndieAuth_for_your_OpenID
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KevinMarks aha, thanks aaron. I need an openid replacement
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mikeal !tell caseorga_ i can't make it to LA this weekend for FarmhouseConf, the logistics and cost ended up being too much
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KevinMarks now what still wants an openid login so I can test it...
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aaronpk KevinMarks: http://indiewebcamp.com/openid#Consuming_Sites
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KevinMarks I was thinking livejournal
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KevinMarks :D
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aaronpk ohhhh yeah
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aaronpk http://www.livejournal.com/identity/login.bml?type=openid
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tantek heads-up KevinMarks - benwerd and I are conspiring on an indieweb dinner in SF on Friday night.
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KevinMarks "kevinmarks, your current position in the Top Journals is: 2,786,781"
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KevinMarks LOL
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crossdiver Would writing a PESOS-style backup for Disqus make it all better?
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crossdiver trying to do comments on my site, but want non-indieweb folks to still be able to comment easily
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KevinMarks "Comment Posted Success Your comment has been added. According to this journal's settings, it was marked as spam."
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bnvk tantek: cool, thanks for the protips :D we should update IndieWebifyMe to denote duplicate entries
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tantek this is all a good learning experience for learning about indieweb/microformats itself
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bnvk aaronpk: yah, I definitely will get around to indieauth, one of these days :)
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aaronpk get around to? doesn't it already work?
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KevinMarks so LJ successfully lets me login using openID with IndieAuth, but decides I'm a spammer anyway
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tantek screenshot?
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KevinMarks heh
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KevinMarks I had to change prefs to turn off spam filtering, then it 'screened' the comment with a 3 step 'are you sure' process to let it though
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KevinMarks http://kevinmarks.livejournal.com/664.html
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bnvk aaronpk: I mean adding it to my site so I or others can site in with IndieAuth
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aaronpk oh, whatever
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tantek bnvk - why not take the 30 seconds it takes to swap out myopenid for indieauth for your delegation at least?
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aaronpk you can change your openid tags in like 30 seconds and get off myopenid
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aaronpk that's what I meant
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bnvk oh, ok. I was unaware it was that easy
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KevinMarks yep, it was way faster than actually getting the comment to post.
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aaronpk lol!
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bnvk additionally indieauth continues to be really fickle for me signing in anywhere else due to the fact I'm using https and it's caching or something... that persistent bug
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aaronpk I thought I fixed that in the last batch of changes?
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bnvk nope
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KevinMarks now I need to fix my external accounts to point to kevinmarks.com instead of kevin-marks.com
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bnvk my only URL that keeps showing a green is Twitter
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bnvk and it still throws the ruby error
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aaronpk bnvk: github is also green: https://indieauth.com/auth?me=https%3A%2F%2Fbrennannovak.com&redirect_uri=https%3A%2F%2Findieauth.com%2Fsuccess
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KevinMarks my google+ one works because that has loads of rel-me's out so I can auth with any account
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bnvk I always test signing in to IndieWebcamp
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tantek exactly
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aaronpk shouldn't matter what you're signing in to
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bnvk hrmm
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bnvk that works just fine with Twitter on indieauth.co,
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bnvk .com
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bnvk but on indiewebcamp.com it's still totally broken for me
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bnvk :(
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bnvk i'll happily screen share / help debug this
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aaronpk you'll have to enter explicitly https://brennannovak.com in the "sign-in" form until https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieAuth/issues/28 is fixed
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bnvk yes, that is what I enter "https://brennannovak.com/"
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aaronpk ah, the wiki is removing https!
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aaronpk slaps the wiki
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bnvk hehe
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Loqi benwerd: tantek left you a message 12 hours, 18 minutes ago: I noticed you're using Disqus on your previous personal URL benwerd.com, e.g. http://benwerd.com/2013/03/14/silos-the-open-web-and-selfdogfooding/ - beware recent Disqus ad sneakery controversy: https://twitter.com/fdevillamil/status/394368809597149184
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Loqi benwerd: tantek left you a message 5 hours, 40 minutes ago: Ok I wrote up the disqus controversy on the wiki page to make it easier to find, since searching for "disqus" in Google (even Google news) just brings up every site that *uses* Disqus: http://indiewebcamp.com/Disqus#Displays_ads_on_site_to_public_but_not_owner
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Loqi benwerd: tantek left you a message 1 hour, 16 minutes ago: - here's an original-post-discovery challenge - how do we find benwerd's original posts from his FB POSSE copies e.g.: https://www.facebook.com/ben.werdmuller/posts/10100631599571559
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benwerd !tell tantek Thanks for the Disqus note - I haven't altered my old WP install at all. I should probably deactivate it (all Disqus comments are copied to my local WP db)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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@kevinmarks @dsifry @tomcoates @anildash webmention is the reinvention of pingback, based on what we know now (twitter.com/_/status/395277757409529856)
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@llaisdy RT @t: Why not to upgrade to iOS7, ht @benwerd http://www.zdnet.com/apple-censors-lawrence-lessig-over-warranty-information-ios7-mess-grows-7000022533/ and POSSE to forums http://indiewebcamp.com/github#POSSE_to_GitHub #ownyourdata (ttk.me t4Sn4) (twitter.com/_/status/395277810555977728)
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@benwerd Did you know? Disqus displays ads on your comments but hides them from you. Just disabled everywhere. http://indiewebcamp.com/Disqus#Displays_ads_on_site_to_public_but_not_owner (twitter.com/_/status/395278370323181568)
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aaronpk interesting thread https://twitter.com/anildash/status/395275331688742912
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@anildash Seems like a Technorati-circa-2004 service that we ping with our tagged blog posts would be infinitely cheaper to build today. Kickstarter?
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benwerd Would love tantek's feedback on that
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aaronpk you know how people make shiny things like http://humanstxt.org/ and get everyone excited about adding it to their site really quick?
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aaronpk I wonder what it would take and/or if it would be a good idea to try that with a really simple indieweb thing, like indieauth, or an h-card on your home page
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bret afternoon iwc
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bret aaronpk: I would wager that would be a good tactic. When I was learning html5 half the fun was looking at all the shiny websites
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@magrolino RT @t: Why not to upgrade to iOS7, ht @benwerd http://www.zdnet.com/apple-censors-lawrence-lessig-over-warranty-information-ios7-mess-grows-7000022533/ and POSSE to forums http://indiewebcamp.com/github#POSSE_to_GitHub #ownyourdata (ttk.me t4Sn4) (twitter.com/_/status/395286858189778944)
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benwerd aaronpk: I like the idea of an h-card in particular. Something like an indie-technorati like in anil's post could be a great hook
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aaronpk a couple years ago someone made this in portland: http://prtlnd.com/
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aaronpk really simple directory of people, you added a photo, your name, two tags, and a link to your site
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aaronpk http://prtlnd.com/submit
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aaronpk it got picked up a ton in portland. started out with just "designers" and "developers" and they quickly had to add tags for artists, musicians, etc
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aaronpk i'm thinking it would be fun to do that again but pick up all the name/photo/tags from the URL you enter. so the only thing you'd type in is your website.
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aaronpk the key is it has to a) look really good and b) needs to be part of some community, either geographic or topical, so people want to add themselves to the list
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benwerd aaronpk: I like that very much. A simple "we are independent" directory might be a nice step, along the lines of that site
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aaronpk that's a great tagline
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benwerd weareindependent.com: ours at an affordable $2195. I guess I'm saved from another random domain buy.
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aaronpk how about indpndnt.com
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aaronpk or, .org
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benwerd weareind.ie?
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@aral Not that it needs saying, but I hope you guys know @aaronpk, @caseorganic, @t, @BarnabyWalters et. al. are doing awesome things w #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/395298623820677120)
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aaronpk heh
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aaronpk the TLD as part of the word is cute, but rather hard to say
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aaronpk aw thanks aral!
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@aral …and IndieWeb, like Open Data, is so important for Indie Data that I can’t even imagine how much harder Prometheus would be to do w/out it. (twitter.com/_/status/395299023273623552)
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Loqi tantek: benwerd left you a message 1 hour, 26 minutes ago: Thanks for the Disqus note - I haven't altered my old WP install at all. I should probably deactivate it (all Disqus comments are copied to my local WP db)
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benwerd (And then I did, and spread the word)
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benwerd tempted to buy weareindie.tv and use it as a challenge to implement indie-video
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aaronpk hah!
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_6a68 benwerd++ so good
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Loqi benwerd has 9 karma
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benwerd Man, I need to sort out that karma score. Must log into the channel more. (I finally finished my project that's been taking me away from idno this weekend!)
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tantek yay benwerd is back in the channel!
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Loqi giggles
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benwerd hoping to actually participate and build stuff again. been a while.
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tantek and dangit here I thought maybe I had a chance of catching up ;)
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benwerd I've been following you all from the get-go ;)
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tantek hey aaronpk - any idea why FB keeps putting the OSBridge logo as the image preview for indiewebcamp URLs? e.g. https://www.facebook.com/ben.werdmuller/posts/10100632242049029
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tantek what's weird is that you even have the <meta property="og:image" content="http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/skins/indieweb/images/indiewebcamp_logo_color.png" /> markup in there and it doesn't seem to help
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tantek so much for OGP metacrap
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benwerd apparently the og image needs to be at least 200x200
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benwerd so I guess they just arbitrarily ignore it otherwise
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benwerd while picking another image that is also smaller than that
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benwerd Oh! No. The OSB logo *is* bigger than that.
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benwerd (269x209.)
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aaronpk whoa that's really weird
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@giyom Imagine the #indieweb equivalent to banking: #indiebank i.e. ppl pooling deposits w/ open source software to drive resilient pymt innovation (twitter.com/_/status/395304854488223744)
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@tek_fin RT @giyom: Imagine the #indieweb equivalent to banking: #indiebank i.e. ppl pooling deposits w/ open source software to drive resilient pym… (twitter.com/_/status/395306469501190144)
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bret cool https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/streams-api/raw-file/tip/Overview.htm XHR streams :)
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@NurtureGirl RT @giyom: Imagine #indieweb = to banking: #indiebank i.e. ppl pooling deposits w/ open source software to drive resilient pymt innovation (twitter.com/_/status/395325616192778240)
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@kevinmarks RT @NurtureGirl: RT @giyom: Imagine #indieweb = to banking: #indiebank i.e. ppl pooling deposits w/ open source software to drive resilient… (twitter.com/_/status/395329092838375424)
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aaronpk lol http://disqus.com/humans.txt
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peat hah!
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@kevinmarks "@morbital: @edbott somebody needs to start an "OpenTwitter"" #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/395334013637763072)
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@kevinmarks "@mathewi: RT @kevinmarks: "@morbital: @edbott somebody needs to start an "OpenTwitter"" #India Web /cc @davewiner" er #indieweb #DYAC (twitter.com/_/status/395335676893229056)
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KevinMarks though IndiaWeb may be worth campaigning for too
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KevinMarks @benwerd indie video has a chance via js
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benwerd via js?
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KevinMarks I wrote a post on this: http://epeus.blogspot.com/2013/05/finally-some-progress-in-video-codecs.html
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KevinMarks Monty joining Brendan at Moz is encouraging
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KevinMarks asm.js + WebGL = dyanamic codec download
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pdurbin hadn't heard about that: http://gigaom.com/2013/10/15/monty-montgomery-joins-mozilla-for-daala/
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benwerd oh oh oh
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benwerd a JS codec
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benwerd yes
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benwerd the state of video on the web otherwise makes me weep internally on a daily basis
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KevinMarks god yes
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KevinMarks that animated GIF is the de facto format depresses the crap out fo me
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benwerd the trick is still that point of upload - but you can possibly mitigate it if you *capture* the video right there using web technologies
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benwerd uploading a pre-existing video is likely still to be very hard
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benwerd animated GIFs were really cool in 1994 when I was making them, I swear
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KevinMarks we had quicktime fast-start then already
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KevinMarks by '98 we had it running on everything available
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KevinMarks netsplit? not seen that fro a while
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_6a68 hey, animated GIFs are still cool. in fact, giphy has a whole series on GIF artists: http://giphy.com/artists/