#indiewebcamp 2013-11-01

2013-11-01 UTC
bnvk, glennjones, josephboyle, snarfed, acegiak, smus, scor, skinny, mikeal and tantek joined the channel
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bret
wow way cool
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@adrianshort
@drawnalism Sounds very #indieweb. I know what you mean.
(twtr.io/eJuz7rtPV4)
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KevinMarks
nothing like installing ghost on heroku to see how much cruft it has accumulated already
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barnabywalters
ghost or heroku?
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KevinMarks
I think I'll cross that one off
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barnabywalters
if there’s anything you think others might benefit from knowing, add it to Issues: http://indiewebcamp.com/Ghost#Issues
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aaronpk
cruft? I'm curious
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Loqi
aaronpk: tantek left you a message 1 day ago: what do you think of shaner's suggestion? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-10-31/line/1383234361
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aaronpk
I approve ^
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tantek.com
edited /rel-syndication (+696) "/* IndieWeb examples */ add iamshane.com examples of rel-syndication"
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snarfed.org
edited /User:Snarfed.org (+0) "rearrange"
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aaronpk
my london trip was cancelled. now I have to figure out how to properly update the flight post on my site to reflect that.
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KevinMarks
did you say there was an indie dinner tonight?
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aaronpk
is there? I land at 8pm
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tantek
benwerd and I were planing one yeah
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tantek
my old BB is finally dying (keyboard/buttons appear to be flakey/nonfunctional), and it's been a struggle to get the data off of it
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tantek
essentially you have to use BB software to "sync" the BB info onto *specialized* applications on your Mac (not into files)
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Loqi
benwerd: tantek left you a message on 10/30 at 3:31pm: - and the other questions? when did you start publishing rel="syndication" markup? and does idno look for (consume) rel-syndication links when you're posting a reply?
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benwerd
In answer to those questions:
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benwerd
The second day of IndieWebCamp, and yes
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tantek
ah ok same day as me then
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benwerd
pretty sure the same session :)
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tantek
I'm going to assume you got it working first - unless you remember specifics
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benwerd
I actually suspect you did
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tantek
oh interesting. and then maybe I showed you the markup on mine and then you added it? that sounds vaguely familiar
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tantek
continuing on that BB sync thread: contacts -> Apple Address Book, notes -> Apple Mail Notes (forcing you to add an account there if you didn't already set it up), photos,videos -> iPhoto. Do you see the problem here?
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benwerd
I think that's about right
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tantek
we need a term for the local-machine equivalent of silos - there has to be a pre-existing term for this but I can't think of it.
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tantek
silo-apps: apps which store your data in some proprietary/hidden/non-obvious place in the system (i.e. not easily discoverable in the file system)
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tantek
= why I don't use iPhoto, for example
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tantek
such apps are obviously acting as "gatekeepers" for your data
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tantek
and violating the desktop metaphor
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tantek
since you can't find the actual file(s) that represent your data items in your desktop filesystem and "double-click" them to open them
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tantek
KevinMarks - is there a term for such silo-apps that violate the desktop file/document metaphor?
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tantek
I feel like this is part of the #ownyourdata problem
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tantek
(and mobile apps are even worse - ALL the data in those is hidden in the apps - since mobile has "lost" the desktop metaphor)
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tantek
this is something we lost as users when OS/device manufacturers (e.g. Apple, MS) transitioned from "desktop" systems to "mobile" systems. by removing the desktop metaphor, they've forced us to keep our data in silo-apps (once created, the data is stuck there)
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tantek
whereas on a desktop, we could easily drag & drop and move our data anywhere
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tantek
this seems like a big WTF. how did as users give up on this?
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tantek
(or am I missing something obvious)
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benwerd
I'd say that there's a really important lesson here about what users value vs what we value as people who care deeply about software
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benwerd
Look at Windows
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benwerd
People are actively avoiding 8 because of the removal of that desktop metaphor, even if they're not quite sure why. It turns out people *do* want that more open model
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tantek
benwerd - the desktop metaphor was supposed to about usability - it was what users valued
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tantek
oh that's interesting (re: Win8)
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benwerd
(I submit "lockboxes" if there's no term out there)
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tantek
maybe all the people that didn't care about the removal of desktop have already switched to iOS etc.?
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tantek
benwerd - lockbox is not really accurate - you don't use a key everytime you open a mobile app to look at the data do you?
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benwerd
the mobile app *is* the key
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tantek
app-silo felt right because just like social network silo - it's convenient, but hard to move the data
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benwerd
point taken though - it is just another kind of silo
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tantek
perhaps a natural consequence of an app-centric ecosystem
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tantek
as iOS has reignited
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benwerd
re: desktop metaphor, it probably depends on context. Where desktops are used - work - there is still a need for that freedom. On the move, maybe it's less relevant to the use case?
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tantek
all functionality is thru apps. home to apps. install apps. launch apps.
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tantek
the desktop metaphor was document-centric
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tantek
in this shift we've lost something
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benwerd
lost a great deal, I'd say
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benwerd
I've been using Win8.1 for testing
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tantek
we know we've lost something, because as a reaction to this app-siloization of our data, there's clumsy workarounds like "share" where you push some of that data through a straw to some other destination
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benwerd
Minesweeper - Minesweeper!! - has to be run in a separate full-screen window out of context with the rest of everything else
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tantek
I don't want to have to "share" or "move" the data. I just want to point a different app at it to operate on it live. not on a static export.
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benwerd
We run into this all the time at work, actually. People, eg, want to record audio with one app and then send it with ours. And on iOS, you CAN'T.
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tantek
how is minesweeper not just minesweeper.js now?
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benwerd
It's why I like Android. You can just pass data from one app to the other. Still not perfect, but much, much better.
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tantek
benwerd - no - that's the aforementioned straw
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tantek
and it's a *copy* of the data that gets passed
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tantek
it's not shared/common access to the same *data*
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benwerd
Right, agreed - but even that, which I agree is a clumsy workaround, is better (imo) than the iOS situation
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benwerd
which is "let's make a deal to make our two apps work together in any way"
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tantek
yeah - bizdev
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tantek
same problem we see on the web
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benwerd
best is still "here is the f***ing data"
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tantek
benwerd - this tells me that there's an opportunity for some-one to develop a *content*-centric mobile UI/experience that returns control of data to the user
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benwerd
or better yet, "here is where this kind of data is stored for everyone"
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tantek
resists going down the OpenDoc rant road.
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barnabywalters
tantek: OpenDoc was a thing you worked on, right?
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tantek
yeah - was co-technical lead
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tantek
was exactly this kind of user-centric multi-app model (multi-apps in the same document for different parts of it)
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tantek
problems were: 1. it was too hard to develop for (harder than a normal single document app), and 2. incentive models were not figured out for app developers
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tantek
turns out if you fix 1 (as the web did), 2 figures itself out in a distributed fashion
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tantek
another reason I like "app-silo" (do we need the hyphen? for emphasis?) is we can use it in conversations like, "that's not an app, that's an app-silo"
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tantek
and obviously there's "synergy" (sorry) between app-silos and web-silos
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tantek
iOS Path app is a good example of this
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tantek
exception to the app-siloization - there's one "Camera roll" of your photos on iOS
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tantek
and all the apps ask for access to it
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benwerd
the camera roll is the weird saving grace
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benwerd
but no, eg, audio roll
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tantek
why is there no "Text roll" where I can keep my text documents?
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benwerd
document folder
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tantek
they're stuck in the Notes app-silo
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barnabywalters
there are some 3rd party attempts to create inter-app audio — cowpaths which apple is starting to pave in iOS 7
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tantek
In fact - Photos is *exactly* the exception
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tantek
there's a Camera *app*, and there's the Photos *content browser*
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benwerd
barnabywalters: there are some interesting attempts to do better at this wrt documents embedded in emails, too
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benwerd
but emails are not shared spaces - they're documents in themselves
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barnabywalters
benwerd: “yuk” is my initial reaction :/
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tantek
the Photos "app" is basically just a directory of your Album "folders" which contain your photo "documents"
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barnabywalters
reminds me of that email vs wiki collaboration diagram
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tantek
email should be nothing more than an ephemeral delivery envelope for the stuff inside - which should go somewhere else of its own.
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tantek
e.g. at a URL - like on a wiki
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aaronpk
tantek: re: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-11-01/line/1383331268 agreed. The exception which is getting more popular is for mobile apps to use your own Dropbox account as a backend. I've used a few apps like that, Drafts, for example for note taking syncing to dropbox, and "Dropvox" for audio recordings.
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aaronpk
I like that approach a lot because the app becomes an input interface to my dropbox account, which is really just a filesystem
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: kinda like unhosted — apps don’t have to worry about storing documents, only editing
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tantek
aaronpk, sorta. Dropbox itself is partway between a silo and a hosting provider.
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benwerd
I think we all agree. So, uh, do we need to go build ourselves an indie operating system?
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tantek
aaronpk - I'd believe that if such mobile apps could *trivially* move your documents between Dropbox and S3 for example.
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aaronpk
dropbox is kind of a silo, but I prefer to think of it as a sync tool
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barnabywalters
benwerd: small steps :)
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tantek
well if we succeed with indie web, then all we need to do is combine with existing work on a web-based operating system
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tantek
building blocks
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barnabywalters
we’re already freeing web content with mf2
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tantek
indeed
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benwerd
I do like the idea of an abstraction layer app as an interim shim, where Dropbox could be one provider, S3 another, etc.
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tantek
we used to call those file servers
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aaronpk
the nice thing about dropbox is it's just a filesystem, so I could replace it with any sync tool in the future
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tantek
and they'd show up on your desktop as icons, and you could double-click them, and open them and drag stuff back and forth
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peat
FUSE?
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tantek
Dropbox is close to achieving this
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tantek
aaronpk - right. transparency about *where* the data goes is the first step
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benwerd
(I use Transmit on my desktop, which does exactly this)
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tantek
do those mobile apps put them in a "well known" folder in your Dropbox?
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tantek
and then, can you do anything with those files yourself?
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aaronpk
yeah you choose which folder to upload things from the app
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tantek
what do they look like when you open them in a text editor?
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aaronpk
so I have a "Recordings" folder full of mp3 files from Dropvox
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aaronpk
and a "Notes" folder full of .txt files from the Drafts app
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tantek
the Drafts app?
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barnabywalters
yeah, I have a “writing” folder on dropbox which I edit from my laptop or iPad — contains plain text files
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aaronpk
and I also have Notational Velocity on my laptop so I get the same list of .txt files on my computer
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barnabywalters
dropbox apps can ask for access to your whole dropbox, or they can make their own folder
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aaronpk
it's seamless syncing of plaintext notes between my phone and computer, works quite well
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barnabywalters
which is still kind of like a silo, but at least you can see inside it
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tantek.com
edited /rel-syndication (+56) "/* IndieWeb examples */ note when benwerd got rel-syndication working on werd.io"
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tantek
aaronpk I've been exactly looking for this: "seamless syncing of plaintext notes between my [PDA] and computer"
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tantek
for like, goodness, 15+ years?
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aaronpk
yeah seriously
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aaronpk
evernote tries to do it too, but you're locked into their silo and weird doc formats
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tantek
aaronpk - can the Drafts app access and use your "Notes" as local store?
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aaronpk
yes I believe so... let me check
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tantek
right! Evernote smelled very evil when I looked into how it worked.
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barnabywalters
evernote would be so great if it just used HTML
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benwerd
I seriously dislike Dropbox as a provider baked into iOS apps though. Really need to be able to select my own provider and not depend on that biz dev link.
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aaronpk
baby steps
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benwerd
and I want a pony.
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barnabywalters
there are some apps which allow you to use webdav shares
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tantek
benwerd - agreed. why does it need to go to *the cloud* to sync between my two devices which are the same wifi network?!?
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Loqi
gives benwerd a pony
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benwerd
that was easy.
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barnabywalters
but I’ve not seen any which let you seamlessly swap out storage providers
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tantek
aaronpk - how is sending everything to the internet and then pulling it all back down from the internet a *baby* step?!?
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tantek
wouldn't a baby step be local syncing?
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aaronpk
no, I think local device discovery is still not very well solved
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tantek
aaronpk - it was in the AppleTalk network days :(
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aaronpk
it's taken until this year before I've had a good experience setting up any devices on my network
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tantek
this is ironically an example of where an open standard (TCP/IP) was a *huge* regression from what was closed (in the 1980s at that!)
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aaronpk
I mean, I don't have trouble looking at my DHCP server and finding a device's IP addres, but that's not exactly a consumer friendly process
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tantek
and TCP/IP based "stack" has never caught up to AppleTalk level of automatic discovery, peer to peer etc.
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aaronpk
but now devices like the philips hue can hop on your local network and your phone can talk directly to it like magic
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tantek
aaronpk - so why not my iPod and laptop"?
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tantek
why is the "hue" special?
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aaronpk
it's special because philips made a distinct effort to create a good experience
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tantek
how odd
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aaronpk
tantek: just tested on my phone btw. the app I meant is called Notesy, and yes it has a local cache of the files, you can create and edit files offline and they sync when you open the app with network access.
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tantek
ok so here's my "dumb" MacOS question. In my "home" directory there's Movies, Music, Pictures, so where's the Notes folder?
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aaronpk
Documents?
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tantek
why does text get so neglected?
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tantek
aaronpk - yeah, saw Documents, but apps don't seem to use it
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tantek
not even Apple
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tantek
iTunes will sync Photos to/from the Photos folder, but will not sync Notes to the Documents folder
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benwerd
so on that note
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benwerd
the Notes app in Mavericks
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hober
tantek: ~/Library/Containers/com.apple.Notes/Data/Library/Notes/
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tantek
hober ?!?!
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benwerd
it looks like it's just syncing with iCloud
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hober
tantek: are you on mavericks?
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tantek
no - I'm not a beta tester
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hober
tantek: i don't remember where notes lived before mavericks
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tantek
(of my desktop OS)
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tantek
discovers the [ ] Sync notes option buried under "Info" in iTunes when you select an iOS device in the list on the left
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benwerd
So those files in .../Data/LibraryNotes?
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benwerd
What format is that? Because it ain't text
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tantek
yeah - this is what bugs me
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XgF
benwerd: Dropbox being baked into apps seems to be a weird iOS thing
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tantek
the "obvious" thing to do with text notes is .txt files in a folder
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tantek
why is that so hard?
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aaronpk
mavericks is out now, free update
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XgF
Probably related to the fact that iOS doesn't let you talk to any other app ever
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benwerd
XgF: exactly
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tantek
why do devs do *extra* work to crap this stuff up with weird formats?
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XgF
So, basically, its' what you get for picking a locked down platform :p
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benwerd
well, and to be clear: the primary store really is iCloud. The files on your desktop are basically a cache.
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benwerd
It's got all my notes from my iPad circa 2010.
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benwerd
The whole thing is as proprietary as it can be.
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tantek
I don't sync with iCloud
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tantek
I sync with iTunes
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XgF
tantek: Anyway, neighbour discovery on TCP/IP has been a solved problem for, what, a decade? Only issue is that there are two camps: the camp Apple, Linux, and the sane people are in (multicast DNS) and the camp Microsoft and friends are in (UPNP, which uses crazy HTTP over *UDP* shit)
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tantek
really curious now where these iTunes sync'd "Notes" will go...
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tantek
XgF - interesting
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benwerd
oh, fascinating. I just checked and it claims to be syncing notes with my *Google* account
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tantek
lol - is that mail.app then?
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benwerd
I dont' use mail.app
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benwerd
(but do use the calendar app)
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benwerd
oh, indeed
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benwerd
that is super weird. It created a folder in Gmail
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tantek
I don't use mail.app either. but I had to create a local mail.app account just to launch it to the point where it could get notes sync'd from my old BlackBerry
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benwerd
And it's saving notes as messages over IMAP, I guess
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tantek
then I had to drag those files to the file system from mail.app's notes view *one at a time*
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aaronpk
technology is hard, let's all go home
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tantek
and then delete the superfluous ".eml" suffix on all of them
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benwerd
aaronpk: that is actually pretty much how I'm feeling today
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tantek
and then open them all in BBEdit
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tantek
and then delete the superfluous RFC822 header that mail.app decided to put on my notes
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tantek
WTF?!?!
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tantek
seriously, developers, why you gotta go make dealing with plain txt so hard?
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XgF
Mail.app does (did?) stash notes in IMAP
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XgF
Probably because Mail.app is old and back then IMAP was the only place anybody synced anything
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tantek
so basically I may actually finally get around to registering a free DropBox account *just* to use it with Notesy
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tantek
"Your notes are seamlessly synced over-the-air, to and from your Dropbox as plain text files."
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tantek
seriously Apple, why is that so hard for you to do?
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tantek
(apologies to hober)
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tantek
or rather this: "Your notes are seamlessly synced over-the-air, to and from your Documents folder as plain text files"
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aaronpk
if you do sign up, here's a referral link :) https://db.tt/1px7xkV
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tantek
that's what I want - and it doesn't seem that much to ask
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aaronpk
i'll get extra space
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tantek
extra free space?
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tantek
or do you have a paid account?
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aaronpk
I get 1GB extra, and you get 500MB extra
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tantek
whoa cool
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aaronpk
I have a paid account, but it still adds 1GB to my limit
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tantek
BTW part of the reason I've resisted Dropbox (and any other cloud-sync solution) is this: https://twitter.com/t/status/367491233247395840
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@t
Huge problem with
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aaronpk
yeah, I usually disable dropbox sync on my laptop when i'm on limited networks
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aaronpk
but on iOS it doesn't sync in the background beacuse it can't really
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tantek
aaronpk - "usually disable dropbox sync" - sounds like a manual pain
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XgF
And on Android I think it does lazy syncs (i.e. when you open the UI)
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aaronpk
yeah, it's not that bad
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aaronpk
and it usually doesn't cause that much of a problem anyway
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tantek
seriously - why isn't this peer to peer between our devices
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aaronpk
because it's harder
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tantek
aaronpk - you forget that iPods used to show up on your desktop as a volume
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tantek
it's been done before
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aaronpk
same problem all the QS devices have that I wrote about http://aaron.pk/a4SV1
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tantek
they dropped it
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XgF
Because my phone and tablet are rarely on the same network? :)
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tantek
QS has more of an excuse - new kinds of devices
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tantek
XgF - what do you mean? my "phone" and laptop are almost always on the same network?
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aaronpk
mine are only on the same network at home
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XgF
tantek: My phone is normally on my mobile network, not so often on wifi
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tantek
XgF - my mobile network *is* wifi
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tantek
my "phone" is on wifi
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aaronpk
at the office we have weird wifi, and when i'm out and about they're rarely ever on the same network
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aaronpk
except when I'm using my phone's internet connection from my laptop
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tantek
aaronpk - when I'm out an about my iPod and laptop are almost always on the same network
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tantek
why is it easier to sync PDF documents (aka "Books") than plain .txt files?
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aaronpk
i think that's a pretty unique setup, cause you use the mifi a lot
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XgF
Also, you can't sell subscriptions to peer to peer syncing
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aaronpk
also that :)
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tantek
aaronpk - no, when I'm home, they're on the same network. at work, same network. at a cafe with wifi, same network.
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tantek
and only in between are they on the same network via mifi
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aaronpk
ah but you are talking about an ipod and laptop, I think a more common combination is a phone and a laptop
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tantek
XgF - ok so basically getting good peer to peer syncing working has to be a pure open source play - got it.
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tantek
noted.
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aaronpk
where the phone has its own internet connection, so not as much need to get on wifi all the time
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tantek
aaronpk I don't know what you mean by "phone". I use my iPod as a "phone"
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aaronpk
i mean a device connected to the cell networks
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aaronpk
also LTE is often faster than wifi when i'm traveling, so I don't usually connect my iphone to wifi
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tantek
do you mean a hardware device tied with an expensive contract to a single poor-customer-service domestic only network provider?
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tantek
I define "phone" by what I use it for, not by how crappy the backend agreement is.
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XgF
gets free roaming on the other side of the globe from his operator (and my phone is unlinked to a contract :-))
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tantek
the "LTE is often faster than wifi when i'm traveling" doesn't add up. just get an LTE mifi then.
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aaronpk
but i'm talking about the fact the device has its own connection
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tantek
all devices have their "own connection"
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aaronpk
i'm just saying you're in a somewhat unique position of having two devices that only have wifi network
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tantek
you're talking about a connection which is exclusive to an expensive contract to a poor-customer service provider
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aaronpk
doesn't matter
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XgF
doesn't define £6/mo as "expensive" (thats like 2 days lunch. I should probably pack myself lunches...)
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aaronpk
the fact that you have two wifi devices means you often connect them to the same wifi provider. that doesn't happen for most other people because one of their devices has a cell network connection.
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tantek
I have device with a cell network connection too.
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aaronpk
the mifi?
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tantek
and I don't have that problem
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tantek
right
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tantek
so what you're describing sounds like a misconfiguration that others have
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aaronpk
not everyone wants to carry 3 devices, and not everyone has a tethering plan with their cell phone
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XgF
(and not everybody wants their phone's battery to last 3 hours)
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tantek
my iPod lasts longer than any iPhone
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tantek
so iTunes *also* sticks notes into the Mail.app app-silo
#
tantek
this is seriously broken. what developer thought it was a good idea to hide your mobile notes in your *desktop* *mail* application?!?
#
XgF
The allmighty Apple? :P
#
tantek
and not as text but as RFC822 documents?
#
tantek
XgF - by what developer, I mean what *person* (sure, perhaps at Apple)
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#
tantek
Well that's that, so much for iOS "Notes" application. With a crappy sync model like that, forget it.
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XgF
As I said, they probably do that since notes have lived in mail.app since long before the iPhone
#
tantek
XgF - nah, there was the "Stickies" sticky notes application long before mail.app
#
tantek
they could have sync'd them there
#
tantek
Btw the old BlackBerry *does* mount as a filesystem - and you can at least browse/copy your photos.
#
XgF
Mounting as a mass storage device is an stupid idea IMO (have to give the PC exclusive access to the block device...)
#
tantek
so how about mounting as WebDAV then?
#
XgF
MTP is the standard mount format over USB (Media Transfer Protocol)
#
tantek
HTTP over the local network
#
benwerd
Oh, now there's an idea.
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#
benwerd
ponders WebDAV as an optional import API interface
#
XgF
Good smartphones have used it for a while (Android 3.0+ by default, hell, my old Nokia N8)
#
XgF
pretty much every non-Mac OS implements it out of the box
#
tantek
why "import"? why not "access"?
#
tantek
"import" implies moving
#
bret
holy cow, did anyone fly into LAX today for IWCH?
#
tantek
XgF except you could do an HTTP WebDav mount without a hard-USB connection - wirelessly over wifi
#
tantek
bret huh?
#
XgF
Sure. Good value add feature perhaps
#
aaronpk
bret: my flights is tonight...
#
bret
aaronpk: there was a shooting at LAX
#
aaronpk
I might reroute myself through Ontario
#
aaronpk
I heard
#
XgF
Hell, I see no reason somebody couldn't do that as an Android background app..
#
tantek
yikes!
#
aaronpk
been waiting on flight status updates
#
tantek
driving down tomorrow
#
benwerd
tantek: you're right, access. full crud.
#
bret
TSA was shot, I really hope nobody from here flying in was hurt :(
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tantek
benwerd - exactly. access. full crud.
#
tantek
so the Drafts iOS app is tied to the Simperium backend sync provider, and Notesy is tied to Dropbox.
#
tantek
why can't I say, here's my web server, store notes there?
#
aaronpk
isn't owncloud trying to do this?
#
tantek
isn't this what WebDAV was supposed to solve?
#
barnabywalters
tantek: the stupid thing is that you can with reminders, calendar and contacts. those apple apps have really good support for hosting your own data
#
tantek
CalDav and CardDav sure
#
aaronpk
so what happened to webdav?
#
tantek
but why no storing Notes with WebDAV?
#
tantek
aaronpk, CalDav and CardDave are built on top of WebDav
#
tantek
CardDav
#
aaronpk
then that makes even less sense
#
tantek
right
#
tantek
there must have been market pressure to sync to something like CalDav/CardDav - perhaps as an alternative to exchange
#
XgF
Though CalDAV/CardDAV use an inteligent WebDAV server
#
XgF
The "defacto" standard for syncing notes has become... IMAP
#
tantek
"intelligent" ?
#
tantek
except running your own IMAP server is a pain
#
tantek
so that's a dead end for us
#
XgF
CalDAV/CardDAV require a CalDAV/CardDAV server
#
XgF
IMAP is no more of a pain than any other E-Mail server
#
tantek
hah - right that.
#
tantek
compared to say a web server.
#
barnabywalters
installing a card/cal/webdav server is a matter of dragging some PHP files to a webserver and setting some config up
#
barnabywalters
mail is a huge challenge with lots of moving parts
#
tantek
exactly
#
tantek
mail is not an indie web technology
#
tantek
it's a "i have an IT staff to maintain it" technology
#
tantek
aaronpk have you experimented with http://agiletortoise.com/support/drafts/url_actions.html at all?
#
XgF
Well presumably you already have some solution for mail anyway...
#
aaronpk
tantek: not with Drafts in particular
#
aaronpk
but I did hack up a neat "login trick" with my latest gps tracker app i just built
#
tantek
XgF - "solution" != personal server that you setup. It's why so many people use gmail now.
#
XgF
tantek: Sure, but from ~2005 Apple's perspective "Nobody has a website. Most of them have some form of E-Mail system..."
#
aaronpk
I run my own mail server (been running it since about 2004 and has required little maintenance) but all it does is forward emails from my various domains to my gmail account and I read it there
#
barnabywalters
oooh, app -> web actions!
#
tantek
aaronpk - so Drafts supports the C in CRUD: http://agiletortoise.com/developers/drafts/
#
aaronpk
ah there we go
#
barnabywalters
that’s excellent prior art for injecting content into URLs
#
tantek
so this is the problem. we've moved from a user model of, I have a document, I can open and edit it with any application that supports that type, to, I have an application, and I have to send (copy/share/email) any documents directly to other apps to edit with them, and then send back when done.
#
barnabywalters
to be fair, an app-centric, no-filesystem approach does make things more accessible for a lot of people
#
tantek
how do you figure?
#
barnabywalters
my mum never understood file systems, but with an iPad she knows to press the keynote button to do presentations
#
tantek
it seems to trap your data and make it *less* accessible
#
barnabywalters
or the pages button to edit documents
#
tantek
right, the hierarchy problem
#
tantek
so the "Documents" folder was supposed to solve that part
#
barnabywalters
“it’s like a filing cabinet, but each folder contains another filing cabinet”
#
tantek
what happens when a new app comes along and she wants to edit her previous "Pages" documents in the new app?
#
tantek
seems less accessible
#
barnabywalters
the data is less accessible, but it’s much simpler
#
barnabywalters
…to a point
#
tantek
it's like the new model is just a reinforcement of brand-loyalty behavior in other industries
#
barnabywalters
until you need to move things around, at which point it becomes extremely complicated — creating copies of things which erode as you pass them between apps
#
tantek
barnabywalters - I disagree that it is simpler (or must be)
#
tantek
when you go to the grocery store, you don't think app-first, you think content-first
#
tantek
then you look on the shelf at what brands (apps) are available for each type of content you need and it's a late-binding decision
#
barnabywalters
but you always go to the grocery store for groceries
#
tantek
that's like saying, you open your computer to do digital documents
#
tantek
it's a category, not per-app/content-type
#
barnabywalters
where is the dividing line?
#
barnabywalters
“text documents” can refer to all sorts of things
#
tantek
also, the grocery store is merely a "server"
#
tantek
you go there, you get the data you want, you leave with it
#
barnabywalters
yeah, you don’t cook it and eat it there
#
tantek
well you can get pre-cooked things too
#
barnabywalters
wait, now we’re discussing the varieties of food available at grocery stores?
#
tantek
!tell Kevinmarks - you were asking about dinner - looks like we're doing 18:30 at 21st Amendment 2013-11-01
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
tantek
barnabywalters - no, it was you that mentioned "don't cook"
#
tantek
ok I think I will try the Notesy + Dropbox solution because I know I can give aaronpk a hard time if it doesn't work ;)
#
aaronpk
also try notationalvelocity on your computer pointing to the same folder
#
aaronpk
it's a great interface to a folder of text files
#
aaronpk
quick searching and editing and creating
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bret
love that ting
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bret
thing*
#
tantek
hmm.. I've been using BBEdit locally with folders of text files quite successfully
#
aaronpk
no reason to switch then probably
#
tantek
sounds like an innovative approach to search with text
#
aaronpk
benwerd: cool! post to indienews too!
#
benwerd
coming coming
#
aaronpk
hooray!
#
@t
going to #IndieWeb dinner tonight 2013-11-01 18:30 @21stAmendment. Join us: http://werd.io/2013/indieweb-dinner (ttk.me t4Sq1)
(twtr.io/eKuG2_9dR4)
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Loqi
KevinMarks: tantek left you a message 11 minutes ago: - you were asking about dinner - looks like we're doing 18:30 at 21st Amendment 2013-11-01
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#
tantek
aaronpk - so why does nvALT put documents by default in ~/Library/Application Support/Notational Data/ instead of ~/Documents/nvALT/ ?
#
tantek
what's with the anti-pattern of apps sticking *Documents* into a folder labeled "Application Support"?!?
#
aaronpk
heh yeah, no idea
#
aaronpk
just dug up some chat logs from microsoft lync
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aaronpk
path was: ~/Documents/Microsoft User Data/Microsoft Lync History/aparecki@esri.com
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aaronpk
ironically in my Documents folder
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tantek
awesome!
#
tantek
Colloquy also sticks logs in the Documents folder
#
aaronpk
still more buried than I would have liked... ~/Documents/Lync would have been nicer
#
tantek
aaronpk - since you chose that specific fork, could you file a bug on nvALT (assuming you agree it should use Documents folder by default)
#
aaronpk
good idea
#
tantek
(I'm assuming you might know the folks or something)
#
tantek
(I mean, it's open source right?)
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aaronpk
I don't, but sure
#
tantek
(no need for it to be dumb like proprietary app / biz dev decisions)
#
tantek
props for the old class mac style icon in the footer: http://notational.net/images/talk-face.png
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XgF
Using documents or not by default is a tricky one. I find it annoying when applications dump their random folders there
#
tantek
XgF - it's not tricky at all
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aaronpk
that happened to me on windows... too many apps dumped their settings and stuff in "My Documents" that I eventually had to make my own Documents folder where I actually knew what was in there
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tantek
did the user create a *thing* (like a document) and *name* it?
#
tantek
then yes, put it in the documents folder
#
tantek
did the app create some random file/folder for its own caching purposes? then app support or wherever
#
tantek
not hard
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XgF
And because somebody followed that logic my Documents folder is full of crap
#
tantek
it should only be crap you named and created as a user
ozten joined the channel
#
aaronpk
by that logic chat logs should not be stored in Documents
#
tantek
preferences don't belong in documents folder
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XgF
Yes, but inside folders I didn't create and never wanted
#
tantek
aaronpk - yeah - chat logs are odd
#
tantek
XgF one level of app folder containment by default helps Documents from becoming a complete random mess
#
tantek
I see chat logs as an efficient storing of what otherwise would be one file per statement I typed
#
tantek
they're grouped accordingly into files by channel and date
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XgF
I'd like the Documents folder to be *my* private domain. The home directory is unused on most OSes (except *nix where it substitutes for a proper documents directory)
#
XgF
IMO application directories I might want to peek in should go there
#
tantek
aaronpk - so it's an aggregation of that rule of, did the user create it and name it
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tantek
XgF - "where it substitutes for a proper documents directory" which is why Apple created an explicit "Documents" directory in the home directory
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XgF
Yes. Chat logs should probably go in home (IMO)
#
XgF
word processors (and similar) should default to documents
#
tantek
interesting
#
KevinMarks
Os x has library for that
#
tantek
I'd almost be ok with another folder for logs rather than documents, where the assumption was clustering by year etc.
#
tantek
hey KevinMarks welcome back
#
tantek
coming to dinner?
#
tantek
(it's an open invite in case that wasn't clear)
#
XgF
KevinMarks: Library is kindof to OS X as AppData is to Windows: a dumping ground for all sorts of application crud
#
tantek
basically, app data should all be deletable without losing any *user data*
#
tantek
and the app should be able to reconstruct whatever app data it needs, as if it was just launched
#
tantek
but your documents are your own
#
KevinMarks
I missed it, was afk
#
KevinMarks
When's dinner?
#
KevinMarks
And where?
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benwerd
21st Amendment.
#
tantek
Kevinmarks - perhaps you can try webmention RSVPing to it: http://werd.io/2013/indieweb-dinner
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#
@indiewebcamp
RT @t: going to #IndieWeb dinner tonight 2013-11-01 18:30 @21stAmendment. Join us: http://werd.io/2013/indieweb-dinner (ttk.me t4Sq1)
(twtr.io/eKxaQByK1N)
#
tantek
benwerd since you didn't post your even to Twitter ;)
#
tantek
s/even/event
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: benwerd since you didn't post your event to Twitter ;)
#
benwerd
POSSE fail!
#
benwerd
Sorry about that
#
tantek
I don't think we ever figured out what it would mean to POSSE an event to Twitter
#
tantek
since Twitter doesn't do events
#
tantek
even my blog posts I don't really count as POSSEing to Twitter since the "tweet" is just the article name and URL
#
tantek
truly POSSEing an article would be doing something like what shaners does: POSSE in full to Medium & Wordpress - as noted here: http://indiewebcamp.com/rel-syndication#IndieWeb_examples
caseorganic joined the channel
#
tantek.com
edited /POSSE (+0) "/* IndieWeb examples */"
(view diff)
#
tantek
(which - the rel-syndication examples - I'm realizing should be copied into http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE#IndieWeb_examples )
#
tantek
does anyone else here sometimes not bother to click on a link because it's a .PDF? E.g. in search results, or when news articles link to PDFs?
tpinto joined the channel
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tantek
pdf;dr ?
#
aaronpk
yes, the fact it's a PDF is a huge deterrent. I find I consider much more carefully whether I really wanted to see the content before I click
#
aaronpk
probably I'd say 80% of the PDF links I don't end up clicking on because they're a PDF
#
tantek
exactly
#
tantek
we need a term for this, the equivalent of tl;dr
#
aaronpk
although the same is true for known-bloated websites like cnn.com, tends to be news sites
#
tantek
pdf;dc for didn't click?
#
tantek
or should we just use ;dr as a suffix?
#
tantek
e.g. cnn.com;dr
#
tantek
for your example
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#
@kevinmarks
@megnut @kellan @moleitau that's what #indieweb feels like
(twtr.io/eL02Pr3gN8)
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tommorris
tantek: PDF has gotten better since Firefox started rendering them inline. But, yes, in general PDF is a discouragement from reading
#
snarfed
;dr is definitely becoming a suffix
#
snarfed
e.g. tos;dr
#
tantek
ok snarfed, so be it, ;dr is the suffix
#
tantek
btw, here's my first use of pdf;dr (ahem, bnvk ;) ) https://www.facebook.com/brennannovak/posts/10151771740933918
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aaronpk
the only good use of PDFs is for sharing things where the physical position of things matters
#
barnabywalters
tantek: you know benwerd posted an HTML version right?
#
aaronpk
like when printing checks on check paper :)
#
tantek
wow nicely done benwerd
#
aaronpk
*whew* my flight was successfully changed to fly in to Ontario! will still be abble to make it in tonight!
#
aaronpk
now to figure out how to properly handle updated/canceled flights on my site
#
tommorris
PDF is a very useful format incidentally for the reason aaronpk said: for citing
#
tommorris
academia still haven't yet quite got their collective heads around this whole interwebs thing
#
tantek
uh, tommorris, what does "citing" have to do with "physical position of things matters" ?
#
tommorris
page numbers. mapping to physical objects.
#
snarfed
seems like fragment backlinks would work fine for that?
#
hadleybeeman
Tommorris: assuming it goes through, the new W3C Data on the Web working group will be working on that.
#
hadleybeeman
See Data usage description vocabulary: http://www.w3.org/2013/05/odbp-charter.html
#
snarfed
huh, benwerd's events have accepted a couple of my rsvps, but not the one for dinner tonight
#
tommorris
hadleybeeman: not referring to data. I'm referring to if I want to quote a passage from, oh, Bertrand Russell's "On Denoting", and wish to do so in an academically respectable way
#
snarfed
i got it wrong the first time
#
snarfed
i wonder if idno doesn't re-parse on subsequent webmentions
#
snarfed
seems doubtful
#
benwerd
it does reparse
#
tommorris
hadleybeeman: PDFs solve that problem by giving me actual page numbers from original print publications. those matter. fragment identifiers get some of the way there, but the cultural assumptions of academia still have a lot of play
#
hadleybeeman
Ah, I see, tommorris. Some predictable practices around pagination and anchors might help there.
#
tantek
pagination is one of those fixed medium assumptions right?
#
hadleybeeman
Yep.
#
tantek
hadleybeeman - does that WG have anything to do with the Open Annotation W3C Community Working Group?
#
@t
pdf;dr - when you avoid clicking a link because it's a PDF.
#
tommorris
tantek: pagination is a fixed medium assumption. bit fixed media and citability rather assume one another. ;)
#
tantek
"rather assume one another" - false. h-cite
#
snarfed
glad you caught the tos;dr inference. love that project.
#
tantek
we have citations without fixed media
#
tantek
snarfed, unlike pdf;dr, tos;dr is actually quite googleable
#
tommorris
Yep. And they disappear after a few years when people take down websites. Or unpublish their politically embarassing comments.
#
tantek
and tosdr site was first result
#
snarfed.org
edited /rsvp (+112) "emphasize data element"
(view diff)
#
tantek
tommorris - nah, that's why we have dt-accessed (as modeled on WP citations)
#
barnabywalters
and reply-contexts — citation-contexts are a natural progression
#
tantek
snarfed - you shouldn't need the data element
#
tommorris
And for a lot of academic works, they may be on the web (or on the paywall-web) but the print version is considered canonical even if nobody ever reads it
#
tommorris
that requires human change
#
snarfed
tantak: without it, php-mf2 didn't extract value = "no"
#
snarfed
oops, tantek
#
tantek
all it requires is that we make the web version more reliable than print version. no we're not there yet.
#
snarfed
with a different element, it used the inner text
#
tantek
snarfed - the "value" attribute is special to the <data> element
#
tantek
per HTML5
#
tommorris
tantek: also, I think Metafilter has long semi-required people to put " (PDF)" next to PDF links because of readers inherent pdf;dr-ism
#
tantek
what element were you using it on?
#
snarfed
aha. so rsvp just implicitly requires an element that has the value attr?
#
tantek
tommorris - citation appreciated :)
#
tantek
snarfed - no, where did you get that impression?
#
snarfed
oh god. i originally used it in a <cite>. absolutely no good reason, just historical.
#
barnabywalters
snarfed: no, you could do <span class="p-rsvp">no</span>
#
snarfed
ah, i see. so it will use value, but only if the elem supports it.
#
tantek
<data value=""></data> is valid. <cite data=""></cite> is not. neither is <span data=""></span>
#
barnabywalters
or <img class="p-rsvp" src="no.png" alt="no" />
#
tantek
snarfed - it does the right thing if you're using HTML correctly
#
tantek
if you're using broken HTML, it ignores you
#
snarfed
ok. so the key is that it gets 'no' or 'yes' from one of the valid places - value, alt, text, etc
#
hadleybeeman
tantek: Not really. I don't know much about that community group, but they're RDF-focused. Data on the Web includes JSON and CSV.
#
hadleybeeman
(having said that, if their ontology is useful... I'm sure it will be factored in)
#
KevinMarks
The quote itself is now the citation
#
KevinMarks
I can search for it in the document, or on the Web, faster than I can find the page
#
tommorris
we're post-citation because we're post-fact. thank Sarah Palin.
#
tantek
hadleybeeman - nah, that group's tech is bloated classic RDF / SemWeb overthink / complexity.
#
tantek
just wondered if you'd been affected by it or not
#
hadleybeeman
Point taken, tantek: but you're the first to point out when I don't consider pre-existing work. :)
#
hadleybeeman
(But no, to answer you're question. It hasn't come up. I'm actually wondering who is involved...?)
#
tantek
hadleybeeman - it's useful to show that you've considered any existing work, whether crappy or not
#
tantek
hence why we have the *-formats research requirement in the microformats process.
#
KevinMarks
I'd rsvp if I had a posting system working. Ghost was too annoying.
#
tantek
basically - the "show your homework" requirement - which nearly no tech / spec / standard does
#
snarfed
(found http://microformats.org/wiki/value-class-pattern , for the record. makes sense.)
#
tantek.com
edited /rsvp (+293) "can use a span too"
(view diff)
#
hadleybeeman
Hmm... That's actually something I think I can change for that working group.
#
tantek
snarfed - yes, value-class-pattern predates the <data> element in HTML5
#
KevinMarks
I could manually do it using github posting
#
tantek
the <data> element was justified based on the usefulness and adoption of the value class pattern
#
snarfed
benwerd, thanks for the quick revert. pls let me know if the root cause is bad markup in my rsvp.
#
tommorris
tantek: did you see my recent attempt at microformats-style process over on OSM? https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Dress_code ;)
#
barnabywalters
value-class is still useful for publishing a single datetime as a separate date and time
#
tantek
hadleybeeman - in that case you may be interested in: http://microformats.org/wiki/process
#
KevinMarks
Talking of pdf:Dr, the odi barometer report was a pdf, which seems like a shame
#
benwerd
snarfed: tracing down a bug elsewhere in something else, but will return to the rsvp shortly
#
snarfed
oh no worries. feel free to drop it, very unimportant.
#
tantek
tommorris - that osm link gives me "SSL peer reports incorrect Message Authentication Code"
#
tantek
too scary to click through ;)
#
tommorris
tantek: knock the https off and try http instead
#
tommorris
I'll nudge the relevant people though
#
barnabywalters
tantek: I noticed :)
#
hadleybeeman
tantek, do you have a template page for documenting this background research?
#
barnabywalters
it’s responsible for the largest block of code in php-mf2
#
barnabywalters
and the only bit which tries to understand the content it’s parsing
#
tantek
tommorris - fascinating
#
tantek
btw - you should feel free to contribute that kind of research to the microformats wiki directly too
#
tantek
I mean - what you're basically proposing could be useful as an extension to h-card for venues
#
tantek
and assuming we make some progress with it in #microformats, then we can take it upstream to IETF to a vCard extension
#
tommorris
tantek: having all the research is useful because of debates on mailing lists when people come up with absurd questions and I can just point and say "here's twenty examples"
#
tantek
you lost me at "debates on mailing lists when people come up with absurd questions"
#
tantek
I mean - that's what mailing lists are for, right?
#
mikeal
haha, exactly
#
mikeal
the problem is that there are so many good tools for targeted conversations that mailing lists just get the filth that is left over
#
KevinMarks
Mailinglist;dr
#
mikeal
primarily GitHub
#
hadleybeeman
+1 to that, kevinmarks
#
tommorris
tantek: the OSM process combines anarchy and formality.
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tantek
hadleybeeman re: "template page for documenting this background research" - could you be more specific, do you mean something like this? http://microformats.org/wiki/examples
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tantek
KevinMarks++
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Loqi
KevinMarks has 4 karma
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benwerd
snarfed: not unimportant at all. Want to figure it out!
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tommorris
anarchy in that any user can use any tag they like. formality in that there's a whole complex process laid out that's got all the bureaucratic bits that don't matter but doesn't actually have the critically important reasoning bits
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tantek
mikeal - such tools evolved because people were already frustrated.
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tantek
it's only gotten worse
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KevinMarks
documenting examples publicly is key. I learned this after not doing so on opensocial
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mikeal
true, i find it's better to just not have a mailing list
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tantek
tommorris - sure, but since you're bothering the formality, might as well save it somewhere where it's even more appreciated :)
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mikeal
force people to contextualize their thoughts in to something targetted so that i can go in a better forum
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tommorris
tantek: I'll PD/CC0 my OSM wiki contribs shortly and port over bits to uf-wiki
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hadleybeeman
That's helpful, Tantek, but I was wondering if you'd set up templates. I was hoping to steal your mediawiki code. :)
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tantek
much thanks!
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KevinMarks
I suspect if I get enough yaks shaved for an rsvp to work I'll miss dinner
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tantek
looks forward to seeing tommorris create http://microformats.org/wiki/dress-code-examples
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mikeal
i've found that GitHub issues substitute really well for a list
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hadleybeeman
(I've found things like these, as blank templates, to be really useful in helping people to organise their thoughts/work they need to do: http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/Data_Cube_CR_transition )
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tommorris
We should probably have an -examples big list on microformats.
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tantek
hadleybeeman - mostly we use lists
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mikeal
i even use them for organizing the staffing for conferences
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tommorris
examples-examples ;)
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tantek
and headings
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Loqi
I agree
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hadleybeeman
K
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tantek
if you don't know how to use lists and heading, a template is not going to help you
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tantek
keeping page creation simpler if possible
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KevinMarks
You want -examples-example, Hadley?
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hadleybeeman
Yes!!
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hadleybeeman
That's exactly what I'm looking for :)
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tommorris
examples-examples-factory. we can go full java enterprise
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tantek
hadleybeeman - perhaps you didn't scroll far enough? http://microformats.org/wiki/examples has template like copy/pasteo
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hadleybeeman
is looking again
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tantek
does that help?
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KevinMarks
that was the other thing I learned from opensocial. No one reads the spec, they copy the example and generate something that looks like it
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tantek
KevinMarks that's because their specs were tl;dr
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tantek
(to bring it full circle)
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tommorris
reads specs.
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hadleybeeman
(I definitely agree with that, kevinmarks. But the documentation — even the background research — is worth having somewhere)
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benwerd
snarfed: Fascinating. Confirmed that your mention is being parsed
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benwerd
not sure why it's not being displayed.
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benwerd
(Yet.)
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hadleybeeman
Yes, tantek: that does actually help. Thanks!
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snarfed
got it. thanks for investigating. lmk if i can help.
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tommorris
has read OWL specs too. Usually I need Red Bull before starting.
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KevinMarks
Also because the specs were generated from the javadoc that made the code
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hadleybeeman
tommorris: You have the spec-patience of a saint.
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tommorris
hadleybeeman: no, it's usually because I need to answer a difficult question
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hadleybeeman
I know. I've seen you do it. :) But your determination is... formidable.
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tantek
hadleybeeman - in all fairness, that "examples" page could be improved to be more approachable/readable to answer the use-case you enquired about (templates)
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tantek
hasn't edited that page substantially since 2006
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hadleybeeman
is amused
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hadleybeeman
I realise not everyone organises their work the same way I do. But having questions to answer (or headings in a template) can really focus the work. (Or thought process. Or group discussion.)
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tantek
hadleybeeman - it's good feedback. edited the page accordingly
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hadleybeeman
"examples-examples" is lovely, you two. :) Thanks for that.
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tantek
hadleybeeman - updated: http://microformats.org/wiki/examples (note Template heading near the top - hopefully that's more findable now)
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tantek
the only thing I put above that was how to scope the examples, because it's the next thing people get wrong (the first being the absence of research)
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hadleybeeman
it is, tantek — seems significantly clearer.
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hadleybeeman
That's useful
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hadleybeeman
the current layout makes sense to me. The logic flows.
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hadleybeeman
My only last bit of feedback, tantek, is that the heading "Details of Example Scoping" doesn't seem to fit the content.
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tantek
only 7 years later
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hadleybeeman
:)
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tantek
yeah it's a crappy heading
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tantek
suggested replacement?
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hadleybeeman
Ha. I was going to fix it for you but the page is locked. :)
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tantek
fixed
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tantek
retry
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hadleybeeman
Nope
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tantek
and you're a registered user?
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tantek
reload the page?
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hadleybeeman
yep
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hadleybeeman
Still no.
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hadleybeeman
Anyway, something about "Broader context" or "Why we need examples"? You might need a transition sentence at the top of that section to say something like "Matching microformats to the way people use the web now keeps them useful and relevant. This is important because:"
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tantek
hmm - ok, my guess is you haven't made that many edits yet and are still an "unconfirmed" user - I've opened it up to any registered user
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hadleybeeman
And on that note, I need to pack and get to bed.
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tantek
fair enough
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tantek
save travels
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hadleybeeman
I'm sure you're more than capable of taking care of it. :)
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hadleybeeman
Thanks!
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hadleybeeman
'night all
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tantek
going with "What kind of examples and why" for now
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KevinMarks_
is the interim shim over dropbox s3 et al what camlistore is doing?
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JonathanNeal
I'm excited for your LA meetup. I'm really sad I'll be hosting an event that night and will miss it.
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JonathanNeal
Any folks here from the LA area?
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KevinMarks_
Mavericks doesn't even show me my hard disk any more - I have to search to see my home directory
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tantek
Jonathanneal - it's two days
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tantek
Kevinmarks - Finder preferences I think
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JonathanNeal
tantek: ^
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tantek
IndieWebCamp is 3-4. you could come on day 2.
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KevinMarks_
sorry, reading scrollback on the chromebook - why don't irc clients sync ;)
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tommorris
ooh is there now an LA meetup?
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tantek
this Sunday & Monday
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KevinMarks_
so, recapping the earlier discussion: Apple had an OS-level local/cloud sync in iDisk for about a decade
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tommorris
Nice. Bit short notice for me to get their from London, but great stuff. ;)
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KevinMarks_
then broke it
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KevinMarks_
anything you put in the /Sites/ directory showed up at homepage.mac.com/[yourname]/
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JonathanNeal
Oh really?! Oh oh.
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KevinMarks_
Despite being paid > $100/year by me for this, Apple stopped it and don't redirect
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KevinMarks_
Google Drive has something similar, except their URLs suck
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KevinMarks_
is a Drive folder I can drag stuff into and it shows up on the web
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tommorris
posts about indiewebcamp hollywood - http://tommorris.org/posts/8625
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KevinMarks_
I like that Skype makes those weird bubble noises when someone signs on, as it reminds me to quit it
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jonathantneal.com
edited /2013/Hollywood (+406) "/* RSVP */"
(view diff)
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@joshuajuran
RT @t: going to #IndieWeb dinner tonight 2013-11-01 18:30 @21stAmendment. Join us: http://werd.io/2013/indieweb-dinner (ttk.me t4Sq1)
(twtr.io/eLBDcccWTC)
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JonathanNeal
Ha, 21st amendment.
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JonathanNeal
Clever, clever.
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