#indiewebcamp 2013-11-02

2013-11-02 UTC
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benwerd snarfed: you'll find you're RSVPed all present and correct without having to change a thing. Thanks so much for noticing the bug.
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benwerd (I may have been using a pretty old version of the PHP mf2 parser internally.)
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snarfed great! glad to help.
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@aaronpk Happy to have quickly changed my flight to LAX to fly in to a nearby airport instead... #indiewebcamp #farmhouseconf http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2013/11/01/1/farmhouseconf-indiewebcamp (twitter.com/_/status/396428930694922240)
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benwerd Evening all
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benwerd hope to see some of you at 21a a little later.
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tantek evening benwerd, indeed! :)
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bret lol KevinMarks
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bret so true
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JonathanNeal Any of you folks in socal?
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JonathanNeal If you're visiting the Hollywood area, definitely check out http://www.cantersdeli.com/ Soooo good.
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@t You know what's cheaper than a cell #? A domain name. We're going to make it more useful too. #indieweb #iamnotanumber (ttk.me t4Sq3) (twitter.com/_/status/396442008493244416)
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@r0bl0rd RT @t: You know what's cheaper than a cell #? A domain name. We're going to make it more useful too. #indieweb #iamnotanumber (ttk.me t4Sq3) (twitter.com/_/status/396442141141901312)
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@benwerd RT @t: You know what's cheaper than a cell #? A domain name. We're going to make it more useful too. #indieweb #iamnotanumber (ttk.me t4Sq3) (twitter.com/_/status/396443024915316738)
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@jon_neal RT @t: You know what's cheaper than a cell #? A domain name. We're going to make it more useful too. #indieweb #iamnotanumber (ttk.me t4Sq3) (twitter.com/_/status/396444818676531200)
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@kragen RT @t: You know what's cheaper than a cell #? A domain name. We're going to make it more useful too. #indieweb #iamnotanumber (ttk.me t4Sq3) (twitter.com/_/status/396447627497467904)
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bret grrr... DBs are not fun
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bret also pump.io documentation is very weak
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tantek https://twitter.com/drawnalism/status/396207259942125568
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@drawnalism Yes @adrianshort that is a problem of outsourcing your means of expression to a third-party IT platform which can change its techniques. ^MB
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Jeena Hm I just found gnusocial which I don't quite understand yet but it seems to emerged from a merge of StatusNet, Free Social and GNU social
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Jeena https://www.gnu.org/software/social/
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Jeena As so very often with GNU projects it is really difficult to get information about it fast, you have to search and find it all over the internet
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pdurbin Jeena: yeah, I think it's forked from statusnet. perhaps the most viable statusnet now that evanp has moved on to pump.io
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Jeena but isn't pump.io some kind of a central server thingy?
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Jeena I'm really confused about that
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pdurbin Jeena: nope. it's federated
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Jeena so how does pump.io relate to StatusNet?
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@matro RT @t: You know what's cheaper than a cell #? A domain name. We're going to make it more useful too. #indieweb #iamnotanumber (ttk.me t4Sq3) (twitter.com/_/status/396670274781081600)
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@janl RT @t: You know what's cheaper than a cell #? A domain name. We're going to make it more useful too. #indieweb #iamnotanumber (ttk.me t4Sq3) (twitter.com/_/status/396670852403843072)
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pdurbin_m Jeena: they were both started by evanp
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Jeena Yeah ok I see, just read a bunch of articles about all of this
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pdurbin_m I'm somewhat interested in setting up a pump server
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Jeena yeah me too, as a matter of fact, I'm trying it right now, but there seems not to be any step by step documentation
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Jeena and the readme here http://pump.io/ is kind of misleading
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pdurbin_m hmm. is there an IRC channel?
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Jeena there is #pump.io but I'm not sure it is official
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@philipdurbin @evanpro bummer. you're probably too busy to help someone set up a pump server: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-11-02/line/1383410600 (twitter.com/_/status/396680555775152128)
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pdurbin_m heh
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barnabywalters oh wow, check out the link in evanpro’s POSSEd tweet
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barnabywalters for me it redirects to a page with a JSON message saying I’m not logged it
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barnabywalters but there is a real HTML version here: https://e14n.com/evan/note/idZQC8yTRru1BsND4ThXGg
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Jeena yeah me too
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barnabywalters notified http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4SrGtv/
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Jeena hm he has 615 Followers, pump.io seems not that big?
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barnabywalters does it interoperate with anything?
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barnabywalters other than itself?
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@mindcrash RT @t: You know what's cheaper than a cell #? A domain name. We're going to make it more useful too. #indieweb #iamnotanumber (ttk.me t4Sq3) (twitter.com/_/status/396682221031292929)
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Jeena I don't think so, afak it is incompatible to StatusNet too
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Jeena or gnusocial
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@snarfed_org RT @t: You know what's cheaper than a cell #? A domain name. We're going to make it more useful too. #indieweb #iamnotanumber (ttk.me t4Sq3) (twitter.com/_/status/396682417722765312)
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barnabywalters oh wow I had forgotten about gnusocial
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Jeena I kind of think that users are afraid of the word gnu in project names. GNU kind of sounds like it is only usable on the console and if you're a UNIX guru ;)
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pdurbin_m isn't pump compatible with ActivityStreams?
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Jeena I think they're the only one using it?
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pdurbin_m barnabywalters: thanks for the html version
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barnabywalters pdurbin_m: >> “compatible with activitystreams” — what does that even mean
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Jeena there seems to be a spec http://activitystrea.ms/specs/
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barnabywalters activitystreams defines a vocabulary for talking about things and stuff people do to things
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pdurbin_m barnabywalters: for interoperability
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barnabywalters it doesn’t cover how to actually get sites to work together to do stuff
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barnabywalters (unless their scope has changed since I last looked at it)
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barnabywalters also, published in ATOM or JSON — does any one implementation understand both?
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barnabywalters statusnet might, not sure about pump.io
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Jeena I think pump only works with JSON
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snarfed ostatus is what you're looking for
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Jeena and ATOM is, ..., XML ...
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snarfed it and its component protocols. that's what statusnet used
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snarfed (activitystreams is one of its components)
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barnabywalters snarfed: what implements ostatus?
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snarfed statusnet is/was the biggest
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Jeena gnusocial
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snarfed and lots of smaller stuff
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snarfed iirc diaspora was based on it but wasn't entirely compatible
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barnabywalters snarfed: really? what smaller stuff?
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barnabywalters ostatus was overly complicated
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barnabywalters especially salmon
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snarfed couldn't tell you off the top of my head, but i'm sure ostatus.net and google can
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snarfed sure. no argument here
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barnabywalters *way* too much overhead for small projects to implement easily
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barnabywalters http://isup.me/ostatus.net
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snarfed huh, interesting, you're right
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snarfed i *think* that used to be the main site, but i guess not any more
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snarfed looks like .org works, more or less
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barnabywalters last content posted there jan 2012
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barnabywalters by evanpro, who has seemingly abandoned it in pump.io
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snarfed yup. statusnet was really the only implementor with any weight
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snarfed maybe modulo diaspora, partially
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barnabywalters I think friendica might have implemented it too
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Jeena monoculture all the things!
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barnabywalters but look at all of these projects: large, monolithic codebases
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snarfed oh sure, identica etc
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barnabywalters no small components
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barnabywalters no reusability
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snarfed but i wouldn't say they had weight, really
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barnabywalters monoculture all the way through
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barnabywalters product-centered
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barnabywalters ostatus is dead. we should learn what we can from how it succeeded and failed, then move on
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snarfed sure. i'm not advocating ostatus, just mentioned it re your q that activitystreams "doesn’t cover how to actually get sites to work together to do stuff"
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Jeena yeah even tent is less product-centered/monoculture then those, they at least have this idea of a protocol and many implementations of servers and clients
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barnabywalters se also http://indiewebcamp.com/ostatus
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snarfed eh, i wouldn't agree that ostatus is product-centered. statusnet was just the biggest (arguably only) truly commercial implementor.
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snarfed but otherwise, all the criticism and death knells are valid
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barnabywalters snarfed: ostatus wasn’t product centered, but all its major implementations were
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snarfed sure. (i wouldn't personally even make that plural :P)
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barnabywalters true!
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barnabywalters well, I think the other implementations and the (albeit limited) interop they achieved is worth or recognition
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barnabywalters s/worth or/worthy of
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Loqi barnabywalters meant to say: well, I think the other implementations and the (albeit limited) interop they achieved is worthy of recognition
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snarfed sure. plenty of code and interop
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snarfed only one with really meaningful adoption.
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snarfed ostatus is dead, long live indieweb, and all that
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snarfed i'm off to hack on rendering fb/twitter/g+ as mf2. appropriately horrifying for the halloween season!
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barnabywalters snarfed: oh nice!
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barnabywalters have you seen https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2-shim?
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barnabywalters aaronpk and I have made basic support for getting mf2 data from twitter and fb
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snarfed yup. that's my medium term project: pure webmentions and indieweb replies for interacting with silos
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snarfed oh wow, awesome!
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snarfed looking now
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Jeena the thing with indieweb is, I had a look at the whole wiki and I don't see anything like ostatus or tent, it is basically a big wiki with quite a lot of information about stuff but nothing one could take and implement to for example do stuff you do on twitter right now
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Jeena or it is hidden so I wasn't able to find it
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barnabywalters Jeena: barryfrost.com did — I don’t think he’s ever logged into IRC, but he built a top-notch indieweb site just from the stuff on the wiki
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barnabywalters Jeena: what specifically were you looking for?
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snarfed barnabywalters: thanks for the link, good to have for comparison.
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snarfed mine is only a little additional work on top of https://github.com/snarfed/activitystreams-unofficial and friends
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Jeena something like a community, kind of like with twitter or facebook or flickr where you could publish your stuff and get some kind of notifications about stuff other people published
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Jeena and you could comment on that or like it, etc.
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barnabywalters snarfed: oh is activitystreams-unofficial your project? awesome stuff!
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snarfed from what i can tell, the next part - actually transforming webmentions to the proprietary API calls and vice versa - still looks like green field. let me know if you know otherwise
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snarfed thanks! behind the times, but still, appreciated
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snarfed and sorely needs a better name. marketing, whee.
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barnabywalters snarfed: mediating between webmentions => silo notifications would be SO COOL
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Jeena I was quite happy on Tent until they decided that federation/distribution is low priority and I wasn't able to use my domain and host my own server anymore
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snarfed hell yes! actively working on it. feel free to evangelize to anyone interested in writing python for it.
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barnabywalters Jeena: I had a very similar experience with diaspora
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Jeena yeah that was the main reason why I never joined diaspora
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Jeena I guess I'm really happy that there is RSS and SMTP ^^
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Jeena but I would love to see more of this kind.
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pdurbin_m Jeena: huh, I assumed you could run tent on your own domain
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Jeena you could before the 0.3 version and I was running it on https://jeena.net
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Jeena but then they rewrote their server and there is a but which prevents you using the same domain after you lost your data
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Jeena I obviously have backup of the old database but the migrationscript never worked
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Jeena so we were two self hosters and everybody else was on the one server provided by them
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Jeena we've been waiting since mid august to be able to use our own domains again
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Jeena that never happened and two weeks ago we were told that they have more important things to do then to make it possible for us two to use the domains we used until then
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barnabywalters Jeena: seriously, they don’t let you run tent on your own domain?
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barnabywalters when the first item on https://tent.io/ is “choose your host”?
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Jeena you can do it but if something goes wrong you have to chose a new domain and try again
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Jeena (or subdomain/url)
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barnabywalters wow
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Jeena they say they will fix it some day in the future but they have more important things to do now
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Jeena and it was just the last drop for us two self hosters, the thing is they're too young and unexperienced to manage a community. Perhaps one day when everything is ready and all bugs are fixed, perhaps then it will work better.
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pdurbin_m Jeena: man, I feel for you
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Jeena the only thing which makes it worse is that I invested very much time in writing a Desktop client for Linux, OS X and Windows for it which I can't use anymore ^^
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pdurbin_m Jeena: so you're looking for something similar to tent
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Jeena I'm not sure, I like the principles on indieweb "Build tools for yourself, not for all of your friends"
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Jeena so I think I will do that more
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barnabywalters Jeena: what software is jeena.net running?
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Jeena just a rails app I wrote
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barnabywalters looks good
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pdurbin_m Jeena: nice principle
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Jeena but it goes down when I post some of my articles to HN ^^ so in the long run I'd like to remove it and just run static pages
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pdurbin Jeena: you said "nothing one could take and implement" but there's http://indiewebcamp.com/ostatus#IndieWeb_Equivalents
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tantek.com edited /2013/Hollywood (-1) "assume dates were/are correct of 11/3-4 and fix dotw headings accordingly" (view diff)
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tantek catches up on logs
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tantek busy morning - good day all
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tantek welcome Jeena, and thanks very much for the frank feedback - it's helpful to know what we could do better with (on the wiki etc.)
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@ehafen Secrets of trial data revealed http://www.nature.com/news/secrets-of-trial-data-revealed-1.13913 via @stephen_friend #ownyourdata (twitter.com/_/status/396723494286659584)
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@ScienceNik not really surprising, but important! “@ehafen: Secrets of trial data revealed http://www.nature.com/news/secrets-of-trial-data-revealed-1.13913 via @stephen_friend #ownyourdata” (twitter.com/_/status/396726323248627712)
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@pkeane RT @t: You know what's cheaper than a cell #? A domain name. We're going to make it more useful too. #indieweb #iamnotanumber (ttk.me t4Sq3) (twitter.com/_/status/396730724650188800)
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bret grrr pump.io's irc is always crickets….. and its confusing as hell to set up
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bret anyone here have pump.io experience?
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barnabywalters first semi-functional version of indie pipes is working: http://waterpigs.co.uk/intertubes/
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tantek.com edited /Events (+528) "add last night's indieweb dinner" (view diff)
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@Wutbuergerin RT @ehafen: Secrets of trial data revealed http://www.nature.com/news/secrets-of-trial-data-revealed-1.13913 via @stephen_friend #ownyourdata (twitter.com/_/status/396743140583170049)
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bret !tell barnabywalters awesome indie pipes!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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pdurbin bret: Jeena was just trying to set it up
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bret I have it running now
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bret Jeena you around?
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pdurbin bret: what was the trick?
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bret deleting stuff out of the sample config file untill it turned on
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bret im still getting lots of errors
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pdurbin sounds like progress
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bret i'm trying to put together a simple PR for evan to incorporate UF-2
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bret uF2*
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bret How do I defer to an h-card located somewhere else?
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tantek.com created /events/2013-11-01-indieweb-dinner (+1954) "copy from previous dinner, update, braindump from memory" (view diff)
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tantek hey bret, what do you mean by "How do I defer to an h-card located somewhere else?" ?
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tantek in what context?
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tantek.com created /gnusocial (+24) "redirect to their capitalization" (view diff)
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bret tantek: I thought you
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tantek ?
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bret I thought there was a way to defer to a page scoped h-card on a different page from an h-entry
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bret sorry on my phone
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bret the dom isn't really h-card friendly in pump.io at the moment
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tantek presumably by "defer" you mean refer or reference
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bret yes
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tantek an h-entry permalink page can use rel=author to link to a page representing the author (including h-card)
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bret ahhh
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bret ik
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bret ok
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tantek the authorship algorithm allows for discovery of that as a fallback if no h-entry p-author is found
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tantek so clearly we should add this to an FAQ
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tantek where did you try looking for an answer to this before you asked here?
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tantek (i.e. on what wiki page(s))
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tantek.com created /GNU_social (+693) "stub with description, a criticism" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /projects (+228) "/* other */ add GNU social summary and link to main" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /projects (+253) "/* experimental */ add pump.io with main link, note Evan Prodromou using it / selfdogfooding" (view diff)
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bret tantek: I was referencing the h-entry and h-card pages in the microformats wiki
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tantek bret - ok I'll add some hooks there to improve discoverability
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tantek btw barnabywalters' implementation of the authorship discovery algorithm handles rel-author I believe
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/authorship
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/authorship#php_mf2_getAuthor
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tantek so you can test your markup with that
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bret ok
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bret I'll do that when I get home
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