#indiewebcamp 2013-11-21

2013-11-21 UTC
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@t
design Qs when coding a new #indieweb post type:
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tantek
so that's interesting - why does Loqi respect the whitespace in a tweet when I paste the tweet URL in IRC, but NOT when Loqi gets the tweet via search API?
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tantek
cc: aaronpk
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bnvk
is there a page on IWC for travel data?
tantek and scor joined the channel
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bnvk
man, this travel data is really fun
mathpunk and smus joined the channel
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bret
Just your handy, run your own mailserver tutorial http://flurdy.com/docs/postfix/ :rolleyes:
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bret
this is why everyone uses google
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bnvk
bret: wat, you don't like that aesthetic of web design? Dude, it's totally retro :P
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bret
The design of the tutorial is fine
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bnvk
hehe
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bnvk
Too many steps? You don't like sys admin-ing for hours?
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bret
Email servers are wicked complicated to use, right now in the present
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bret
i have better things to do, like complain about it on irc
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bret
please tell me mailpile will cut this down to the same ammount of work as running wordpress
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snarfed
hell yes, agreed. setting up a mail server is an especially big sysadmin task, and then running it is especially big too
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snarfed
deliverability, spam filtering, triaging when you get onto an RBL, etc
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snarfed
no fun
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snarfed
not to mention figuring out and implementing *all* of the different DKIM variants since every recipient SMTP server wants a different one
earplugs1, b0bg0d and earplugs joined the channel
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tantek
and that's why email is a deadend
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tantek
it's lost its tinkerability
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tantek
@jf and kevinmarks have made it to the Homebrew Website Club meeting already
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tantek
hope to see you soon snarfed!
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tantek
(and anyone else in the bay area that can make it to @MozSF)
paulcp, KevinMarks, CheckDavid and paulcp_ joined the channel
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bret
I want to go to HWC:PDX :)
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tantek
bret - how about you co-organize it with aaronpk (he wants to do one in PDX also)
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bret
wish I could make it to tonight
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snarfed
tantek: see you in 15ish!
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tantek
snarfed - awesome!
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bret
tantek thats a super good idea L
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tantek
bret the next one is 2013-12-04
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tantek
you could aim for doing it the same night as the one in SF
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tantek
maybe we could setup a video wall :)
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bret
MozPDZ to MozSF
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tantek
ping your MozPDX friends about using their space
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tantek
we already have 2 way video working from space to space
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bret
that would be the coolest computer club evaaarrr
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KevinMarks
using webRTC?
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bret
I'm going to have to defer to aaronpk, I dont know that many people at mozpdx, despite being there twice
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bret
KevinMarks moz has this insane video conference system
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bret
its from the future
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bret
I could ping dietrich ayala, but I just met him breifly the other day. Wish I talked with him some more
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KevinMarks
I think it's looking at me, it has a blue light on
scor joined the channel
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bret
brendan eich see's all!
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bnvk
bret: ah sorry, got distracted tinkering
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bnvk
Mailpile is not actually going to be a server- at least for the 1.0 version
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bnvk
we do have schemes to bundle a stable, wordpress ease of install mail server, but not right off the bat
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bret
We could start a webRTC room for remote HWC if people want
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tantek
bret - dietrich is a fan of the indieweb
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tantek
ping him and tell him I sent you
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bnvk
and tantek: I'm gonna push back on "deadend" due to being non tinkerable- there are loads of things people depend on daily that are no longer "tinkerable"
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tantek
bnvk - such things usually are ripe for getting replaced by things that *are* tinkerable, and eventually *are replaced*
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tantek
so if you identify such things, please speak up, so we can replace them :D
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bnvk
mmmm washing machines
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tantek
mmmm hardware
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KevinMarks
forgets old video conf testing rule: don't join from 2 cameras in the same palce
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bnvk
tantek: is hardware exempt some your theory?
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tantek
no, just slower
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tantek
hence makerbots etc.
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bnvk
hmmmm
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tantek
the easiest non-tinkerable hardware stuff to disrupt is getting disrupted first
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tantek
it's only a matter of time before all non-tinkerable hardware is disrupted by tinkerable hardware, based on where makerbot etc. are going
paulcp joined the channel
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tantek
but yes, that will take longer than software/servers
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bnvk
gotcha
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bnvk
it's an interesting notion
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bnvk
so is the root of it something along the lines of- humans have innate desire to tinker with their tools and things in their environment, thus things with high tinkerability will prove to be better in an evolutionary sort of way?
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tantek
that sounds close yes
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tantek
tinkerable things are able to out evolve non-tinkerable things
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bnvk
ok, I'll go along with that, has a nice energy to it
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bnvk
and things that are "non tinkerable" or below the threshold basically get abandoned?
snarfed joined the channel
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snarfed
hey tantek! I'm here at the door
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bret
bnvk sorry to peace out like that, other responsibilities are calling
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bnvk
No worries! Cheers
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb We're webcasting the Homebrew Website Club at https://talky.io/hwc
(twitter.com/_/status/403354237494521858)
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bnvk
KevinMarks: hrm, I'm the only one there
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @t: Homebrew computer club started when microprocessors got cheap enough for individuals - in 1975
(twitter.com/_/status/403354515316805632)
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KevinMarks
give it a sec, my Nexus 7 is sending it. I heard a join
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @t: I have a software update pending on my Mac and iPod that will force me to use iCloud - timesharing returns
(twitter.com/_/status/403355044818333696)
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KevinMarks
maybe chrome n7 isn't up to it?
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bnvk
tantek: is there no dedicated page on the wiki for Travel data?
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bret
webrtc has to broadcast to all clients connected
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bret
does not scale well by default
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KevinMarks
tantek isn't reading irc
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bret
bnvk check out aaronpks attempts
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bnvk
yah- i've been modeling mine after his
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bret
ahh ok
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bnvk
I've got a few different things tho, I wanted to add
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bret
not sure if its on the wiki
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bnvk
and that page looks more like a stub from the Hollywood hacki
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @t: Lee woudl say "welcome to the Homebrew Website Club, which does not exist"
(twitter.com/_/status/403355665483042819)
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KevinMarks
is the webRTC not working? I see joins and exits
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bret
KevinMarks it wasnt for me, i dont think talky works on tablets that well
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bret
for more than one client
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bnvk
I dunno, I was there, but you were just a black box Kevin
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bnvk
but bret and I were doing it nicely
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bret
i can't tune in right now, but maybe bnvk and others do. Maybe google hangouts work work better
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @jf: I host my own domain using the github tool Jekyll, but I want OpenStreetMap, Wikipedia et al on my computer
(twitter.com/_/status/403356898633584641)
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bret
would*
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@joshuajuran
RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @jf: I host my own domain using the github tool Jekyll, but I want OpenStreetMap, Wikipedia et al on my computer
(twitter.com/_/status/403357161192833024)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @kevinmarks: I hack on indieweb stuff. I have my stuff at http://www.kevinmarks.com/ on a static site
(twitter.com/_/status/403357243120168961)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @benwerd: I've been running my own domain on wordpress but I wanted to make my own, hence idno
(twitter.com/_/status/403357485077000192)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @benwerd: I was really interested in POSSE - lots of people don't understand sending things out from your own site
(twitter.com/_/status/403357659471949826)
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KevinMarks
next time I'll bring a ChromeBook to be the webcast machine
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @benwerd: I care about giving people meaningful control without losing functionality
(twitter.com/_/status/403357925252423680)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @benwerd: I'm also interested in how indieweb and POSSE applies to companies as well as individuals
(twitter.com/_/status/403358028352593920)
scor joined the channel
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @_pius: I'm at pius.me I'm interested in the domain name as the new phone number - I want to get a domain services for non-tech
(twitter.com/_/status/403358891984973824)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @iboxifoo: I used @al3x's Sovereign to set up a lot of services on my own domain using ansible
(twitter.com/_/status/403359136626126848)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @iboxifoo: this gets me ownCloud - like dropbox, calendar, webserver, etc - paying $20/mo an SSL cert for $100
(twitter.com/_/status/403359403945902081)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @t: I like that people are taking different approaches and solving different problems
(twitter.com/_/status/403359546715815940)
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@AndrewHazlett
@Chris_Ashworth check out the #indieweb discussion on related topics
(twitter.com/_/status/403359618614583296)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @t: Wordpress and Drupal are like minicomputers - the expense is not money but time learning how to hack
(twitter.com/_/status/403359659391594497)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @t: each has community, but there is almost an initiation rite that make you commit to 1 codebase to rule them all
(twitter.com/_/status/403359814408884226)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @t: this monoculture antipattern is getting repeated over and over - appreciate we're doing different things
(twitter.com/_/status/403359915894263809)
smus joined the channel
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bear
bret, talky.io works on tablets that have the latest chrome or firefox. It in general only does well for 1-3 users
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @t: there are different technical skills, and we appreciate that. Building blocks at http://indiewebcamp.com
(twitter.com/_/status/403360197495627776)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @t: I want to solve how to do good event posts - seems like a hard problem, especially design and UX
(twitter.com/_/status/403360313694633984)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @benwerd: the invitations associated with an event are also important- we don't have a mechanism for that
(twitter.com/_/status/403360452417056768)
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bear
hmm, I don't think we have tried ever to use talky.io as a broadcast tool
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KevinMarks
I could run hangouts, but that seems like cheating ;)
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dietrich
bret: howdy
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dietrich
what's up
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KevinMarks
webRTC should be capable of broadcast
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bear
it can, you just have to have a rebroadcaster on the server side - in browser things like talky.io would melt under that load
smus joined the channel
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @jaylovespie: I'm a UI designer. I have my own website at http://www.jaywong.co/ but I'm not happy with wordpress
(twitter.com/_/status/403361282180390913)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @jaylovespie: wordpress seems a lot heavier - everyone is trying to use it for ecommerce
(twitter.com/_/status/403361442457341952)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @matthewlevine: My site is http://t.co/clSiWWDOVI- it's mostly placeholder and pointers to other presences. It runs on appengine
(twitter.com/_/status/403361591975874560)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @matthewlevine: I'm interested in the UX of publishing itself, and in better ways to tell stories through websites
(twitter.com/_/status/403361696787349504)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @matthewlevine: I'm interested in the PESOS stuff, where POSSE falls short - fitbit does that will, but I want it on my site
(twitter.com/_/status/403361820917784577)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @matthewlevine: I want to use these other things to tell my own story on my own website
(twitter.com/_/status/403361934050746368)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @matthewlevine: it would be great to have activity stream compatible updates form all these devices, but it doesn't exist
(twitter.com/_/status/403362142142730241)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @matthewlevine: I'd like a proxy that translates the fitbit, Up etc sites into activity streams
(twitter.com/_/status/403362306576224256)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @snarfed_org: I have a proxy that turns facebook, twitter g etc into activity streams, @matthewlevine we should talk
(twitter.com/_/status/403362674567680000)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @snarfed_org: everyone who makes self-tracking things has a different api
(twitter.com/_/status/403362863705632770)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @kevinmarks: hardware people tend to make up their own formats even more than software people
(twitter.com/_/status/403362983822127104)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @t: it's handy when laziness and self-interest combine to make lockin
(twitter.com/_/status/403363060733050881)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @jaylovespie: I want to have all my stuff in one place that is co-ordinated and under my control
(twitter.com/_/status/403363185240989696)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @jaylovespie: I want to have a website to organise my life
(twitter.com/_/status/403363297350541312)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @benwerd: the Personal Cloud movement seem to not want it to be a website, but more of a box
(twitter.com/_/status/403363455530311680)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @benwerd: I want to say 'these are mine, these are visible to you too'
(twitter.com/_/status/403363565072961536)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @t: by globally accsessible I want accsessibel to me
(twitter.com/_/status/403363626670493696)
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Loqi
[@kevinmarks] #indieweb @snarfed_org: when indieweb we focus on sharing to people first
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Loqi
personal cloud on things just for ourselves (http://twtr.io/f1XRHwwSsp)
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bret
dietrich you are here :) I was at unhosted the other day
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @t: we start from the simpler problem, because public is simpler
(twitter.com/_/status/403363918434684928)
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bret
we met briefly
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @t: you'll get to private faster if you do public first
(twitter.com/_/status/403364016849821698)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @matthewlevine: all the stuff that I want to be private, I want a record of every spend, but maybe a public summary
(twitter.com/_/status/403364203668320256)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @t: your transactions on VenMo by default are not private - your friends can favorite and comment on them
(twitter.com/_/status/403364383348101121)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @matthewlevine: I want to share with some people, not with everyone
(twitter.com/_/status/403364560284815361)
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bret
dietrich, i was :( I couldn't make it to http://tantek.com/2013/322/b1/homebrew-computer-club-reunion-inspiration in SF and was talking with tantek about doing one simultaneously at mozPDX next time to take advantage of the communication
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bret
I would want to coordinate with aaronpk, but would you care to sponsor such an event at mozPDX?
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bret
errr allow use of that space
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @_pius: Path is trying to be the place that you share everything with a few people.
(twitter.com/_/status/403364800563916800)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @jaylovespie: path is trying to build a narrative of your life, intertwined with friends, but reality, not public stuff
(twitter.com/_/status/403364966494781441)
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bret
bear good to know about talky, also howdy (was at webRTC camp!) Maybe a chrome update was needed in this case
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bear
hi :)
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bear
yes, or firefox beta
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bret
I should have rephrase my statement above to a maybe* talky isnt working...
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Loqi
[@kevinmarks] #indieweb @jaylovespie: with path I have to narrate my own story
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Loqi
if I have a feed of expenses under my control I can do more (http://twtr.io/f1XwsQBtxL)
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Loqi
agreed.
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @benwerd: if I'm looking at my life I want something like Mint, but under my control
(twitter.com/_/status/403365527977857025)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @kevinmarks: I find Mint frustrating because it tells me things I already know and give bad pie charts
(twitter.com/_/status/403365640678825985)
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bear
oh, no worries, we are constantly working on it and testing - so yea, it will fail a lot for a lot of stuff :)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @kevinmarks: Path I have stopped using because I wasn't sure what I had I wanted to share with that group specifically
(twitter.com/_/status/403365766646337536)
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aaronpk
bnvk: I haven't started a wiki page on travel plans but that's a great idea!
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @t: the trap is 'why can't one person solve it' is false -we need a plurality of approaches
(twitter.com/_/status/403365900151054337)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @snarfed_org: the other extreme is everyone has to write their own stack for themselves - we want a collection
(twitter.com/_/status/403365995961536512)
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bnvk
aaronpk: yah, i'll jot down all the things that occurred to me while cobbling together my page today :)
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@adamgurri
RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @kevinmarks: I find Mint frustrating because it tells me things I already know and give bad pie charts
(twitter.com/_/status/403366085958713344)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @snarfed_org: we don't want everyone to write code, but
(twitter.com/_/status/403366154720116736)
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bnvk
now, to bed I go
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @t: open source communities are engrained in there being only one service
(twitter.com/_/status/403366237322768385)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @_pius: we have these high level things like medium, wordpress and low level like AWS we need things inbetween
(twitter.com/_/status/403366374900113410)
bnvk and smus joined the channel
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aaronpk
oh cool HWC is right now! I just woke up :)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @matthewlevine: I like having a lot of examples that we learn from, with a curve people can climb up
(twitter.com/_/status/403366508018937856)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @jaylovespie: I like tumblr - it's like if Blogger 2005 had updated to 2013 - it's easy to make it nice.
(twitter.com/_/status/403366634842103808)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @matthewlevine: tumblr makes it too easy to make nice themes - MySpace forced you to copy and paste HTML
(twitter.com/_/status/403366752836263936)
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bret
aaronpk, what do you think about doing a HWC:PDX?
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @iboxifoo: you do worry if these thinsg are going to survive - tumblr, blogger will all rot.
(twitter.com/_/status/403366933132615681)
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aaronpk
bret: totally!
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KevinMarks
is someone on the webrtc?
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KevinMarks
I see a black box
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bret
I can help organize
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aaronpk
KevinMarks: i'm trying
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aaronpk
I also see a black box
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bear
what browser version aaronpk?
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aaronpk
I don't think it's a problem on my end cause I was using talky.io fine from here with esripdx people yesterday
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bret
KevinMarks firefox beta and updated chrome should work
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@IanGertler
@kevinmarks re: #indieweb @t 'why can't one person solve it' is false - we need a plurality of approaches > Yes, collaborative approaches!
(twitter.com/_/status/403367229170790400)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @kevinmarks: I've been live tweeting with my indieweb tool www.noterlive,com
(twitter.com/_/status/403367710001610752)
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aaronpk
bear: Chrome 31. but it was working fine for me from here yesterday.
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jp
not working for me either on Chrome 31
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bear
we are trying to track down a chrome 31 change to the error handling currently - sounds like you are hitting
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bear
it silently fails to our lib
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aaronpk
oh weird, but nothing changed on my computer between yesterday and today
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bear
IIRC it's on the browser who started the talky session, not joins
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bear
so you have a video peer session, but zero data being sent to that pipe
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bear
right now we are seeing Opera 18 have the strongest quality with fewer errors
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mathpunk
what the-- aaronpk
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bret
aaronpk not sure if you saw the logs, what do you think about an event at mozpdx at the same time as the hwc in sf?
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mathpunk
time zones are fucked up... you must have slept, and then become awake again
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mathpunk
how is that possible
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aaronpk
bret: yes was catching up! I'd love to do that
etymancer joined the channel
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aaronpk
mathpunk: lol yes, I went to sleep around midnight
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bret
are you back in pdx?
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aaronpk
I'm at +0400 which is 12 hours ahead of PDX. it's a really confusing timezone shift
smus joined the channel
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bret
also, mathpunk welcome! I read your introduction yesterday
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aaronpk
also confusing is I'm getting on a plane tonight at 2am and landing in PDX Friday morning. I only have one night of sleep ahead of me before I land but you guys have 2.
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mathpunk
here is etymancer. he made my vps serve terrifying, dark-night-of-the-soul index cards to our mothers
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etymancer
heh
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etymancer
'lo all
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mathpunk
i have an introduction? jeeesus.
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mathpunk
hi bret!
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bret
the all seeing irc logs :)
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mathpunk
ah yes
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mathpunk
i've just watched @mike_FTW raging at designers and i'm amped for sitemaking
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bret
hey etymancer
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mathpunk
indiewebcamp: the friendliest panopticon
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bret
mathpunk i started my website with the goal of NOT learning html
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etymancer
:)
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etymancer
mathpunk: so yeah, I'm here, but I'm also broccoli and stuff
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bret
but then I started reading about html5 and just kept reading and reading and reading
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mathpunk
broccoli > most
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bret
etymancer are you new here too?
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@kevinmarks
Notes from tonights inaugural Homebrew Website Club at http://www.kevinmarks.com/hwc2013-11-20.html #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/403371856406659072)
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etymancer
bret: new in the channel, aye
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bret
cool! welcome :)
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tantek
and the first Homebrew Website Club meeting is now officially closed! Thanks everyone for coming and in particular KevinMarks for tweeting up a storm. :)
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etymancer
thanks!
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mathpunk
etymancer: to catch you up, aaronpk got me to this point-- https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1717994/photos/Screenshot from 2013-11-20 10:59:32.png
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mathpunk
ugh, spaces sorry
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bret
buhh, repost that url
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etymancer
import urllib;urllib.quote(that)
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mathpunk
I asked @Eric_WVGG (aka D. Shwanky) to send me whatever archive of my last wp site was appropriate and I'll figure it out later. I want to start fresh
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mathpunk
"https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1717994/photos/Screenshot from 2013-11-20 10:59:32.png"
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mathpunk
frown
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aaronpk
etymancer: so there's apparently no web server on the new VPS if I found the IP address of the vps properly
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etymancer
yeah, no, it's pretty bare
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aaronpk
ideally we can get mathpunk set up with a minimal environment to start, just something to post HTML files in
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etymancer
sure
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etymancer
I have a script for that
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mathpunk
(and log in to the COOL WIKI)
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mathpunk
I have beer and nicotine and rage-- now what?
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etymancer
so, this 66.33.209.151 - this is unfamiliar
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aaronpk
etymancer: that's dreamhost
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mathpunk
(where the wp site I mentioned is)
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etymancer
oh aye
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@tomforemski
RT @kevinmarks: Notes from tonights inaugural Homebrew Website Club at http://www.kevinmarks.com/hwc2013-11-20.html #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/403373208302149632)
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etymancer
so, you want to set up a new subdomain and point it at the VPS?
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aaronpk
it sounds like mathpunk wants to just ditch the current site completely
#
etymancer
ah, k
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mathpunk
let's say, yes. I want to be building a thing-a-day(yeahright) portfolio, and have a subd for our app when it's more appy
#
etymancer
ok, and what currently comes up when you hit mathpunk.net, do you want that to still be available or just burn it?
#
bret
oh cool pius made it :)
#
mathpunk
burn it all, it's neglected
#
etymancer
coolio
#
bret
fire
#
mathpunk
i mean, i want the data-- I assume that's not lost if we just repoint the thing
#
mathpunk
all the fire
#
etymancer
love it with fire to death
#
Loqi
gives mathpunk the data
#
mathpunk
burn it to save it
#
mathpunk
THX LOQI
#
mathpunk
loqi: u r the best
#
Loqi
is done
#
mathpunk
loqi: nooo
#
bret
I belive in Loqi
#
bret
I'm a Loqiver
#
mathpunk
aaronpk: where're those loqi greatest hits?
#
mathpunk
thx
#
etymancer
hm, oughtta be a way to archive it? I'd hesitate to switch over the DNS just yet since it's a virtual host. just hitting the IP won't get you the contents
#
etymancer
sorry, I'm not very dreamhost- or wordpress-savvy
#
bret
aaronpk someone introduced me to http://dearesri.tumblr.com/ at maptimepdx
#
mathpunk
lemme quote Eric_WVGG
#
mathpunk
"re: the old site, it’s on my crusty old server and I don’t know where many of the passwords were. Do you have any object to me changing the passwords now, backing up the old data, and potentially breaking access to the old site? This won’t prevent you from redirecting the site to the new home."
#
aaronpk
mathpunk: maybe easiest is to do a wordpress export from the admin interface? then at least you can import into a new wordpress later if you want
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etymancer
yeah, that's what I was thinking. or if eric's got it backed up, that'll do too
#
mathpunk
i can get in,doing so
#
mathpunk
wow look at all these inspiring comments, apparently some actual people with not great english are v. impressed with my writrings and laysout
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#
mathpunk
"This format, which we call WordPress eXtended RSS or WXR, will contain your posts, pages, comments, custom fields, categories, and tags."
#
mathpunk
I have downloaded that thing, and surely that will suffice
#
mathpunk
(?)
#
etymancer
perfect
#
bear
mathpunk - just be aware that uploaded photos will not be in the export data tarball
#
mathpunk
bear: thanks, pretty sure I've uploaded none, or if I did they're flickr'd
#
bear
it caught me by surprise, but fortunately I didn't burn the original before I had done my wp -> markdown conversion
#
mathpunk
REMAIN CALM BURN EVERYTHING
#
etymancer
ok, so. for the nonce I'm thinking I'll just set up nginx
#
mathpunk
wouldn't it be easier for me to compile clojurescript to node?
#
etymancer
apache seems a bit much for this
#
etymancer
node can go behind nginx, but the latter can also handle static files
#
mathpunk
i was trolling :(
#
etymancer
which is what I thought was the first step?
#
etymancer
I wondered, but low on cycles
#
bear
nginx proxy pass thru to nodejs is very straight forward
#
mathpunk
omg
#
etymancer
404 humor not found
#
mathpunk
a brother can't troll anymore
#
aaronpk
mathpunk++
#
mathpunk
fsck,I've missed irc
#
Loqi
mathpunk has 2 karma
#
bear
sorry - i've been doing this for so long it's just far easier for me to ignore troll attempts
#
mathpunk
the last time i was srsly on irc it was to roleplay vampires so--
#
mathpunk
you guys have been in the shit
#
mathpunk
i'll try and be good
#
mathpunk
I would like to know what nginx is. I am guessing it is telling python, yo start a web server on port X and serve whatever you find in Y directory
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#
@phoenix2life
RT @kevinmarks: Notes from tonights inaugural Homebrew Website Club at http://www.kevinmarks.com/hwc2013-11-20.html #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/403377115455709184)
#
bear
nginx is a http server
#
aaronpk
mathpunk: nginx and apache are about the same, they are web servers that can both a) serve static HTML files and b) send requests to something else behind the scenes like php or node or python or other web servers
#
etymancer
nginx is yeah
#
bear
just like apache
#
etymancer
except for not ancient ;)
#
aaronpk
meh, ancient just means there's more docs for it
#
@phoenix2life
RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @kevinmarks: I've been live tweeting with my indieweb tool www.noterlive,com
(twitter.com/_/status/403377277796233216)
#
etymancer
there is that
#
@phoenix2life
RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @iboxifoo: you do worry if these thinsg are going to survive - tumblr, blogger will all rot.
(twitter.com/_/status/403377333844729856)
#
bear
if you talk to node and go folks, they think nginx is long in the tooth and will tell you to just put the go code public facing
#
@phoenix2life
RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @matthewlevine: tumblr makes it too easy to make nice themes - MySpace forced you to copy and paste HTML
(twitter.com/_/status/403377401339461632)
#
etymancer
hah
#
etymancer
nothing could go wrong with that
#
etymancer
hm, what the heck, I'll install them both and see which I can get working first
#
bear
nothing at all
#
Loqi
[@phoenix2life] RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @jaylovespie: with path I have to narrate my own story
#
Loqi
if I have a feed of expenses under my control I can do mo… (http://twtr.io/f1bMkGwp41)
#
etymancer
this is the multiest-tasking I've been in some time. hope I don't destroy anything
#
@phoenix2life
RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @matthewlevine: I'm interested in the UX of publishing itself, and in better ways to tell stories through websites
(twitter.com/_/status/403377789803319296)
#
mathpunk
etymancer: I trust you and it's not like there's much to preserve. just so long as I know what's happening and I can add new experiments
#
etymancer
mathpunk: I'm more worried about the tofurkey
#
mathpunk
omg
#
aaronpk
once you get a web server like nginx or apache set up, you can do lots of experiments by using subdomains
#
mathpunk
is worried about the tofurky
#
@snarfed_org
RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @snarfed_org: I have a proxy that turns facebook, twitter g etc into activity streams, @matthewlevine we should …
(twitter.com/_/status/403378855273959424)
#
mathpunk
kevin shhhh
snarfed joined the channel
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etymancer
mathpunk: ok, it's "ready"
#
etymancer
need to switch the DNS over
#
etymancer
you have vr.org credentials, yes?
#
mathpunk
yes
#
etymancer
ok, so, log in there and look for something that looks nameservery :)
#
aaronpk
he's a pro at DNS now
#
mathpunk
hm.... although I didn't realize Seattle was in the north of China...
#
mathpunk
mathpunk.net | A | 66.33.209.151
#
mathpunk
change to livre's ip ya?
#
etymancer
yep
#
mathpunk
done
#
etymancer
cool. due to the magic of internets, that will take "some time"
#
mathpunk
roger
#
etymancer
meanwhile, let's set up a new subdomain also cnamed to mathpunk.net
#
etymancer
so you can actually see it
#
mathpunk
what's this A/CNAME/TXT/MX?
#
etymancer
say, test.mathpunk.net or something
#
@erik_paulson
RT @kevinmarks: Notes from tonights inaugural Homebrew Website Club at http://www.kevinmarks.com/hwc2013-11-20.html #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/403381593982517249)
#
etymancer
I will explain this
#
etymancer
later
#
mathpunk
to the same ip?
#
mathpunk
no port or nothin?
#
etymancer
yep
#
etymancer
no ports in dns
#
mathpunk
I've got to complain about this double-naming nonsense
#
mathpunk
i told it test.mathpunk.net
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mathpunk
but it saves as test.mathpunk.net.mathpunk.net
#
aaronpk
did putting a "." at the end fix it?
#
mathpunk
anyway, that's edited
#
aaronpk
test.mathpunk.net.
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mathpunk
dunno, I just edited and corrected it
#
mathpunk
oooh... will try next subd
#
aaronpk
oh then that just sounds like a bug
#
etymancer
ok
#
etymancer
point yer browser at test.mathpunk.net for a personalized message (tm)
#
mathpunk
OMG WOW SERVER NOT FOUND
#
mathpunk
it's what i always wanted
#
etymancer
hm
#
etymancer
it behaves appropriately for me
#
mathpunk
magic of internets
#
mathpunk
take some time?
#
aaronpk
ooh you have a CNAME to the IP address. make the CNAME record point to mathpunk.net instead
#
mathpunk
maybe it takes time for the Seattle, China bits to get to New Hampshire
#
mathpunk
....
#
mathpunk
wat?
#
bear
a CNAME is an altername name for an existing A record
#
aaronparecki.com
edited /dns (+529) "add notes on DNS entry types"
(view diff)
#
mathpunk
etymancer: so you mean.... the A record points to the IP, the CNAME test points to mathpunk.net instead of the digits?
#
bear
A = Address entry
#
aaronpk
mathpunk: yes that is how it should work
#
jp
i need to learn about dns lol
#
bear
CNAME = Computer Name entry
#
mathpunk
oh, just like the www.mathpunk.net below
#
mathpunk
digit
#
aaronpk
feel free to add to the dns page :)
#
mathpunk
dig-it
#
mathpunk
Server not found
#
mathpunk
SERVER FOUND
#
mathpunk
yessssss
#
bear
CNAMES are used to allow different subdomain names to point to the same server (aka A record) entry
#
mathpunk
and the server knows it's serving different subdomains? the directory structure does?
#
mathpunk
it looks, from this console, like it's all pointing at the same plac
#
mathpunk
e
#
bear
that answer depends on what is receiving the socket connection
#
aaronpk
that part is handled by nginx
#
mathpunk
k
#
aaronpk
you can tell nginx to do different things based on what name was used to get there
#
bear
httpd's (aka nginx) know because the caller (the browser) sends a HOST header record
#
etymancer
sorry trying to avoid dinner failr
#
mathpunk
a POST or GET request includes a header. This header includes information that tells nginx what the browser is looking for.
#
etymancer
*fail
#
mathpunk
dinner > website
#
mathpunk
do not starve my wife b/c i was impressed by Case's realtimeweb talk!!
#
etymancer
well, if you insist
#
mathpunk
i do
#
etymancer
k
#
etymancer
back in a bit then
#
etymancer
also, setup so far is barest minimum to results
#
etymancer
refinement will come
#
mathpunk
as desired
#
aaronpk
mathpunk: so if you have access to that server you should be able to change "yo" into something that has your name on it
#
jp
do you guys think its important to have your own virtual server with your web server stuff on it or is it ok to buy just web hosting?
#
aaronpk
jp: whatever works fofr you
#
mathpunk
I have now made a computer being dreamed of by a computer I have never seen send the word "butts" across the country
#
jp
i'd like the flexibility of having my own virtual server but i dont feel comfortable using linux
#
mathpunk
I am as unto a god
#
etymancer
yep, it's in the /home/youknowwho/mathpunk.net
#
aaronpk
mathpunk: and now you just made the word "butts" fly across the world and land in a small screen in dubai
#
mathpunk
:')
#
mathpunk
afk, have 2 weep w/happiness
#
mathpunk
update: the word "butts" apparently needs RESPONSIVE DESIGN 4 MOBILE
#
mathpunk
which seems a bit much
#
mathpunk
but idk
#
aaronpk
I dunno, your butt is already pretty responsive
#
mathpunk
aaronpk++
#
Loqi
aaronpk has 302 karma
#
mathpunk
btw etymancer suggested I change the page to something with my name on it
#
mathpunk
see, it's subtle
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mathpunk
these butts have my name on them OH HI
#
etymancer
girl, are you these butts, 'cause wait
#
mathpunk
Girl, are you these butts, because you are a conspicuous hill or mountain, especially one that attracts attention by its isolation, or serves as a land mark
#
etymancer
so yeah, the mobile thing is probably just something goofy
#
mathpunk
refinement
#
etymancer
time
#
mathpunk
i was just trying to say "butts" to L
#
etymancer
oh wait, no. send her the www.test.mathpunk.net link
#
etymancer
that works mobileyly
#
mathpunk
Gentlemen, we have butts
#
mathpunk
Confirmed, we have butts
#
etymancer
btw that was aaronpk's suggestion.
#
etymancer
we are at t+butts
#
mathpunk
comes close to spraying beer on the lab equipment
#
etymancer
heh
#
etymancer
so, whew. all disasters averted
#
etymancer
now to clean the kitchen. later to clean the virt
#
mathpunk
roger that
#
etymancer
in between to clean the brain with sleep
#
mathpunk
ok
#
dietrich
bret: yeah next time let me know in advance, and if the space is open i'd gladly be the host for any pdx'ers that want to come
#
etymancer
mathpunk: pm me later / demain for more
#
mathpunk
etymancer: word. it's a site!
#
mathpunk
thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
#
etymancer
ship it.
#
etymancer
my pleasure :)
#
etymancer
also aaronpk: thanks for the help
#
aaronpk
hooray!
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mathpunk
hooooooookay. next: rel=me
#
aaronpk
i have to go in a minute, presentation's about to start
#
mathpunk
if yours, "break a leg", else "enjoy!"
#
aaronpk
thx. yep mine, only 2 left today! *whew*
#
mathpunk
INDIEAUTH'd!!!!
#
bret
dietrich: way cool! I'll/someone will ping you once we work out the details
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#
snarfed
congrats mathpunk! (and etymancer!)
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#
bret
Did anyone take a group photo at IWC:H or HWC#1?
snarfed joined the channel
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aaronpk
mathpunk: YAY cool!
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snarfed
bret: we took a couple at HWC #1 tonight. i think tantek and/or kevinmarks have them
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tantek
Bret snarfed, just posted to IG.
#
snarfed
thanks!
#
@benwerd
Looking forward to the #indieweb tackling weird, ephemeral selfies. Related: I just sent my first Snapchat, badly.
(twitter.com/_/status/403427481085952000)
Jihaisse and tantek_ joined the channel
#
@kevinmarks
@benwerd it's a special case of the private webmention.
(twitter.com/_/status/403428121736519680)
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#
igalic
This is probably not news here, but I only now stumbled over https://unhosted.org/
andreypopp and pfefferle joined the channel
#
Jihaisse
pfefferle: are you there ?
KevinMarks and bnvk joined the channel
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#
Jihaisse
Just released a child theme for #SemPress https://github.com/jihaisse/SemPress-Lite/ thanks to pfefferle
scor, bnvk and friedcell joined the channel
#
@TheSPeriment
@sevasev bgmn? Proses akuisisi #indieweb bisa ditindaklanjuti? :)
(twitter.com/_/status/403532542252306432)
smus, bnvk, brianloveswords, mathpunk and snarfed joined the channel
_6a68 joined the channel
#
Jihaisse
god, works even without hashtags
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#
@xtof_fr
@jihaisse Toujours motivé #indieweb - Bravo pour tes travaux #WP. En cours, étude #jekyll + #github pour les noobs... http://christopheducamp.com/w/2013-326
(twitter.com/_/status/403559270471327744)
tantek and friedcell joined the channel
#
snarfed
progress report: webmentions from facebook are streaming into my inbox as we speak
#
Loqi
yay!
#
snarfed
now to put a barely adequate UX on it
#
_6a68
whoa! nice
#
snarfed
thanks!
#
tantek
snarfed awesome!!!
b0bg0d, andreypopp, barnabywalters, friedcell, squeakytoy, mathpunk and ryana joined the channel
#
mathpunk
Previously, on mathpunk.net....
#
mathpunk
I now have an nginx running on a vps I "own" (rent), and it serves static web pages.
#
mathpunk
Ergo, I have successfully indieauth'd, and then jumped up and down with the joy.
#
mathpunk
I'm not sure what my next indieweb project ought to be, so I'm just going to start curling example web pages I like into a folder on my server for learning/forking.
#
mathpunk
I read a little about the h microformat and I'm not entirely sure I get it, but my current Forever Project is trying to get the web to be more like stacks of shufflable index cards
#
mathpunk
and I think that's probably relevant-- notes vs posts vs articles etc.
#
barnabywalters
mathpunk: Congrats on getting login working!
#
tantek
mathpunk - this is a good place to start: http://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started
#
barnabywalters
You should add some contact information to your homepage, marked up with h-card
#
barnabywalters
Http://microformats.org/wiki/h-card
#
mathpunk
hm, ok
#
mathpunk
barnabywalters: Thanks! Couldn't done it w/o the channel
#
barnabywalters
Just getting a name, URL and photo/logo covers most usage (e.g. Putting a name+face next to comments, posts and such things)
#
mathpunk
I don't understand. It looks like, from the minimal example, that "h-card" is a css class. But what uses the class?
#
tantek
barnabywalters that's a good point. We should point that out on the why page
#
tantek
or a why section
#
tantek
mathpunk - there's no such thing as a "css class" http://tantek.com/2012/353/b1/why-html-classes-css-class-selectors
#
barnabywalters
mathpunk: Yep, h-card is a microformats 2 root class name
#
barnabywalters
Classnames can be used to add extra meaning to HTML elements
#
barnabywalters
Microformats are open vocabularies of classnames for common things like contact info and posts
#
mathpunk
a selector then? I mean the thing that says <HTMLTAG class="foo">
#
barnabywalters
mathpunk: A selector is also a CSS thing
#
tantek
mathpunk see ^^^
#
tantek
it explains that too
#
barnabywalters
Which *selects* one or more html elements
#
bear
"class" is nothing but additional data for an html tag
#
bear
css uses that data for it's job, but it's not css that defines what goes in a class
#
bear
(oh poo, others answered already)
#
tantek
bear - it's ok, it comes up a lot. hence why I finally sat down and wrote http://tantek.com/2012/353/b1/why-html-classes-css-class-selectors
#
bear
bookmarks
#
mathpunk
I've just heard the phrase "css selector" a lot, and one seems to select by tag type, class, or id.
#
mathpunk
sorry
#
bear
no need to apologize
#
bear
asking questions like that means that someone later reading the log will learn from your question
#
bear
and allows others to get a feel if the documentation is working
#
mathpunk
what I mean though, is.... just adding the h-card class to a tag doesn't do anything in and of itself, right?
#
barnabywalters
bear: In practise no one actually reads the logs :) hence why we solidify things onto the wiki
#
bear
oh, then i'm definitely an odd case - I read more logs than wikis
#
barnabywalters
mathpunk: There are open source parsers for various languages which, given HTML with microformats classnames, give you nice data structures to play with
#
barnabywalters
Microformats make HTML as easy to consume as JSON APIs
#
barnabywalters
Without the need to publish everything twice
#
barnabywalters
bear: Each to their own :)
#
bear
any one class item is not important, but taken together when used within the html structure allows logical chunks of metadata to be parsed
#
bear
<div class="h-card"> signals to a microformat parser that this div scope will hold nifty info that it should consider as an h-card
#
mathpunk
when you're talking about these parsers, then, I speculate you're talking about sites in the indieweb ecosystem, that aren't necessarily my own?
#
barnabywalters
Effectively, class=h-card tells the parser "this element represents a person/contactable thing"
#
mathpunk
i.e., the "rel=me" trick
#
bear
visit IndieWebify.me and look at some of the validation sections
#
bear
that is an example of microformat usage and parsing
#
bear
and also a handy way to double check your new site for progress
barnabywalters and snarfed joined the channel
#
jp
tantek: you were mentioned in this book im reading which led me to this irc - which books do you recommend reading for html5/css/js and new web technologies
ozten and benwerd joined the channel
#
barnabywalters
jp: welcome to #indiewebcamp!
#
Loqi
benwerd: tantek left you a message 2 days ago: since you most recently implemented and iterated on permashortlinks/permashortcitations, interested in your thoughts on moving them forward in a more unified fashion in this way: https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-11-19#t1384879473
#
Loqi
benwerd: tantek left you a message on 11/19 at 3:33pm: hey benwerd - noticed that photo posts don't/didn't provide a permashortlink/permashortcitation - was that by design or accident? https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/399304939257618432
#
jp
thanks
#
jp
reading my way through introducing html5 second edition by bruce lawson and remy sharp
#
waterpigs.co.uk
edited /h-card (+656) "added some why information + example"
(view diff)
#
waterpigs.co.uk
edited /h-card (+15) "forgot classname (derp)"
(view diff)
#
waterpigs.co.uk
edited /h-card (+245) "/* See Also */ added h-card validators"
(view diff)
#
tantek.com
edited /Getting_Started (+103) "separate Setup contact info and profile links to an explicit step for referencing"
(view diff)
#
barnabywalters
jp: if you haven’t already come across it, I can recommend the WHATWG HTML living spec as a readable, authoritative reference for HTML5: http://developers.whatwg.org/
#
jp
thanks
#
tantek
barnabywalters I separated this out so hopefully it is easier to use/reference when questions like mathpunk's come up: http://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started#Contact_info_and_profile_links
#
jp
heard about whatwg from this book havent had a chance to check out the spec though - but bookmarked it
#
tantek
barnabywalters - the WHATWG spec is a bit tl;dr
#
tantek
sorry to say - most specs are
#
tantek
hello and welcome jp!
#
jp
thanks
#
tantek
There are a lot of HTML+CSS+JS book/references now
#
jp
im especially interested in new web technologies
#
barnabywalters
tantek: indeed, it’s not bedtime reading, but *much* nicer than the UA implementor-oriented specs for reference — easy to search too
#
tantek
even I wrote one (with video too) that covers the basics: http://tantek.com/html5now
#
jp
and html5 for apps and the like
#
tantek
jp - best thing to do is just get started with HTML5 using your own website
#
snarfed
tantek: glad to see more work on that getting started page, thanks!
#
tantek
snarfed - it needs a lot more work ;)
#
snarfed
works in progress!
#
tantek
jp - do you have your personal domain?
#
jp
not yet i think i might buy one now
#
snarfed
definitely! that's by far the biggest first step
#
jp
i have a vps
#
tantek
jp - I'd suggest reading http://indiewebcamp.com/why
#
tantek
see which of those resonate with you
#
barnabywalters
tantek: updates to getting started look good, I think the rest of the document needs some reprioritisation
#
jp
if i host my website with a vps is it possible to still get mail accounts?
#
barnabywalters
jp: setting up your own mail server is pretty tricky, but you can host your mail elsewhere and still point your domain to your VPS
#
jp
for example gmail?
#
barnabywalters
that’s what I do on waterpigs.co.uk — HTTP requests go to my web server, but I get someone else to host my mail
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barnabywalters
not used gmail personally, aaronpk might be able to help (uses google apps?)
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jp
i think google apps is discontinued :/
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barnabywalters
making bagels, bbiab
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bear
I use mailroute to be honest and then run a simple postfix server to receive mailroute's stream
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bear
layered on top of that is dovecot for imap,pop3 support
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snarfed
google apps definitely isn't discontinued!
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tantek
barnabywalters - perhaps you could capture that info about mail server setup vs. pointing mail here? http://indiewebcamp.com/email
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tantek
similarly bear, how to use mailroute/postfix would be a good add to that page
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tantek
even just a sentence or two about what you're doing
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bear
i'll bring the page up and edit it while waiting for servers to update and such (i.e. my idle time during the day)
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tantek.com
edited /email (+110) "/* Security Issues */ Flickr does the secret email address thing"
(view diff)
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KevinMarks
thoughts on better markup for these notes welcomed - should I add twitter accounts to the hCards?
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barnabywalters
KevinMarks: how about some h-entry?
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KevinMarks
a h-entry for the whole post makes sense, yes.
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KevinMarks
as each line is also a tweet, I could link through, though that is a bit cumbersome
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barnabywalters
why not a h-entry per item?
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jp
got my domain
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jp
has no whois protection though :\ thats long
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barnabywalters
jp: great! what is it?
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Loqi
it is probable
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jp
apparently .so domains do not support whois protection
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jp
lol
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /email (+285) "/* How To Accept Inbound Email */ stubbed FAQ about domains, mail + web server"
(view diff)
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barnabywalters
KevinMarks: or maybe that livenote document is a h-entry which is also an h-feed
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barnabywalters
would that even make sense?
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barnabywalters
from a UI perspective, it is a series of short notes — that’s how it was authored and syndicated
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barnabywalters
and each item is replyable/mentionable/quotable and so probably deserves a permalink to itself
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barnabywalters
otherwise the tweet permalinks are more useful than the canonical permalinks ;)
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barnabywalters
s/canonical permalinks/canonical permalink
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jp
im gonna set up some mails for my domain now ill have to check out google apps
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Loqi
barnabywalters meant to say: otherwise the tweet permalinks are more useful than the canonical permalink ;)
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KevinMarks
yes, that's why this is a bit odd. I should probably post each note as it happens, but that woudl mean using a doffernt process
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KevinMarks
as I publish the site via git+ heroku at the moment
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mathpunk
i'm trying to make my h-card and as usual i'm having trouble being the least bit professional
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KevinMarks
I though h-entry inside h-entry was problematic?
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barnabywalters
mathpunk: what are you having trouble with?
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mathpunk
barnabywalters: not trolling and graffiti'ing my own web presence :) mental problems this time, not technical
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barnabywalters
KevinMarks: it’s problematic when it’s unintentional, but .h-entry.h-feed > .h-entry might actually make sense
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barnabywalters
if it represents a feed which is in itself a post
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barnabywalters
like a storify document
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mathpunk
BUG REPORT: user still not a grown-up
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barnabywalters
mathpunk: fortunately there are helpful people here. can you paste the code you’ve written in somewhere
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barnabywalters
actually, how about an etherpad/other collaborative writing thing?
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barnabywalters
KevinMarks: but I’d still try to give each item it’s own, non hash-fragment permalink
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KevinMarks
writing bios is such a pain
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KevinMarks
always worth trading that job wiht someone else
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etymancer
kind of like dishes
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etymancer
I'd much rather do someone else's dishes than mine.
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mathpunk
alright, i've selected a subset of h-card tags i'm willing to fill up, I'll stick some text on an etherpad. (etherpad's still a thing? cool.)
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KevinMarks
barnaby - the markup is generated inline on www.noterlive.com, then copy pasted at the moment;
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KevinMarks
I'd need to use something more databasy to make a permalink per note
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barnabywalters
databasey? not necessarily, unless you have some aversion to static sites :)
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barnabywalters
mathpunk: is mathpunk.net still supposed to point to your wordpress site or is my cache not cleared properly?
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jp
oh theres no more free google apps
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mathpunk
no, we pointed it away
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jp
:(
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mathpunk
i archived it and i'll figure out what to do with the content later
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jp
anyone using free alternatives for webmail?
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jp
^on their own domains
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mathpunk
also i can't believe that people publish their email addresses on their sites-- it seems like that would encourage people to email you
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aaronpk
jp: I used to use roundcube, long ago
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jp
would i install that on my server?
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jp
okay haha newbie with vps stuff but ill give it a go
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aaronpk
not saying I recommend it. I did say I *used* to use it :)
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Loqi
nice
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barnabywalters
mathpunk: cache cleared — that h-card is looking good to me!
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barnabywalters
you probably want just the “Tom Henderson” to be the p-name
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mathpunk
there's this given-name/surname thing...
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mathpunk
seems a bit fine-grained~
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barnabywalters
yeah, I wouldn’t worry too much about the given name/family name unless you *really* want to publish it
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barnabywalters
name, photo and url are the mainstay
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barnabywalters
that’s what consuming apps actually use
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jp
aaronpk: fair enough, think ill use outlook.com until i get a better grasp of installing stuff on a vps
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KevinMarks
well, I'd need a way to post the notes line by line like I do with the tweets, which would need a noting API
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mathpunk
Something I've just realized-- I prefer how "Thomas" looks in print even though everyone calls me "Tom"
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mathpunk
I'm going with the eye-rhyme
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bear.im
edited /email (+1995) "/* How To Accept Inbound Email */"
(view diff)
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mathpunk
http://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/who_the_eff_is_tom_henderson Here's the info but I'm not sure what the tags wrapping these attributes oughta be.
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mathpunk
I suspect I'm confusing the machine-reading with the person-reading
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jp
wish my name had a cool domain hack
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jp
juli.an
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mathpunk
there are new top-levels with a weird smattering of nouns
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mathpunk
so maybe you can go for JULI.DIAMONDS
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jp
julian.ninja
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mathpunk
but you have to become a mobster
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barnabywalters
mathpunk: don’t worry too much about the machine readable parts — just publish the bits of contact information you want in the what which makes sense, then scatter the mf2 classnames in afterwards
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bear
mathpunk - I modified your name line to show an example
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barnabywalters
s/in the what which/in whatever way
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Loqi
barnabywalters meant to say: mathpunk: don’t worry too much about the machine readable parts — just publish the bits of contact information you want in whatever way makes sense, then scatter the mf2 classnames in afterwards
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mathpunk
So style it like it's for a person, and then the attributes are how to let a parser know
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bear
always style it for human readers
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bear
but tag it for the parsers
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barnabywalters
mathpunk: yes! that is the human-first approach microformats take :)
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barnabywalters
because if you start with what you think will be interesting for a machine, it’ll be structured weirdly for real people, or just make no sense
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mathpunk
ohwow... the nested span made no sense, and then I realized it would let a machine greet me by first name while knowing my full name
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mathpunk
is enlightened
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barnabywalters
goes back to bagel making
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bear
the <span> tag is a great way to split up the smaller bits but still keep the presentation as a whole item
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etymancer
mathpunk: ftfy
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mathpunk
thx
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mathpunk
you are "a great help"
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etymancer
I "try"
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etymancer
goes to google h-card
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etymancer
yep. that's what google said too ;)
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etymancer
I like this microformat idea.
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snarfed
meanwhile: tantek forks kevinmarks's personal site, blows snarfed's mind
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snarfed
"but what does it *mean*?!?!?
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mathpunk
do people actually use mailto links? i use them just to remind myself that i have no intention of configuring an email client
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barnabywalters
I find them pretty handy. and they allow you to log to indieauth using persona, which is pretty handy
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KevinMarks
well, he wanted to fix the typos in my notes from last night, and because I have a clunky publishing process, it's all in git
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snarfed
:P oh it's totally fine. i was just having fun with the meta/philosophical part. probably a sign of too much free time.
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bear
that's how I log into indiewebcamp - using persona via mailto sniffing
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mathpunk
what would a parser do if I have two p-regions? I was thinking of putting both the state (Oregon) and the bioregion (Cascadia)
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jp
is it safe to delete all the default zone files?
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jp
if my domain doesnt currently link anywhere
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mathpunk
I'm going to find out by doing. Maybe my site will make Cascadia real--
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jp
what do you guys recommend me installing on my vps if i wanna host my domain there?
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barnabywalters
mathpunk: I’m not aware of any consumers which actually *use* region data, but the default approach is to use the first value if only one is expected
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bear
jp, I would recommend using a service like FreeDNS if your providor doesn't give DNS support
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bear
running your own BIND daemon gets old really fast IMO (and i'm an ops guy in my dayjob)
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jp
i have a vps at digital ocean and i was thinking of using that
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bear
and I would start with nginx so you can host your static html5 site - then figure out as you find an itch what to install next
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bear
DNS should be provided by the folks you registered the domain name at
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bear
for me it's Hover - they have DNS support that is pretty decent
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jp
yeah i've got dns support at Gandi thats fine
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jp
just nowhere to point it to yet
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bear
oh, now I see why you said zone files - Gandi.net
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bear
yea, for the start define @ and maybe a www CNAME to point to @
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jp
do i point it to my vps' IP?
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jp
(sorry im oblivious to dns)
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bear
no worries, everyone is a newb at something every day
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bear
DNS is the internet's phone book - it maps bear.im to the address of the server that handles it's services
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tantek
snarfed, funny how github creates forks in your profile even when you just edit one file from another project.
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jp
cool domain!
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snarfed
oh, using their web editor?
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tantek
snarfed, yes. that's literally all I did.
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snarfed
yeah. makes sense though. it'd be nice if they cleaned up the fork afterward, but meh
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tantek
ideally I'd have most pages on my site editable by close/trusted friends.
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snarfed
yup! sounds like you :P
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tantek
though I have to figure out where the boundary should be between generated pages (e.g. permalinks pages from storage) and standalone editable pages
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snarfed
i'm perusing bear's web site now. like it!
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tantek
I *think* the boundary is pages that primarily have a date-time context vs. pages that primarily have a named/topic context.
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bear
hides
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snarfed
bear, one minor nit: the github link on https://bear.im/code/parsedatetime/ in the news section is broken
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tantek
so pages in /YYYY/ are the former, and *everything* else is the latter
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bear
oh, yes, I haven't indie-webified my code section
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bear
(this is a hand migration from wordpress)
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snarfed
oh it's just broken, not lacking indieweb-ness
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snarfed
tantek: yeah, sounds reasonable
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tantek
all that leaves is what to do about templates that the datetime-based pages use for generating home page, archive pages, permalink pages (maybe even tag pages)
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tantek
I don't have a URL design for template pages but perhaps I should - how bad would it be if people could see your page templates for generated pages?
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barnabywalters
tantek: er, good maybe?
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tantek
barnabywalters - that's what I'm thinking
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barnabywalters
it’s just view-source on a different rung of the abstraction layer
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tantek
btw at least the template for my home page is visible already: http://tantek.com/index.html
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barnabywalters
the latest version of taproot is getting publicly viewable posting UI pages
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barnabywalters
tantek: oh that’s cool, didn’t know that
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tantek
barnabywalters - yeah it is (was) not linked from anywhere
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jp
tantek: are you ex-twitter?
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tantek
jp - never worked at Twitter. Joined in the first year, gave a lot of in-person feedback back when they were <20 people, and blogged about it early on.
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tantek
hope he escaped reference in the Hatching Twitter book.
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jp
havent read it yet haha
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tantek
barnabywalters - so far I only have two things in that "template" that get filled in:
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tantek
<div class="section stream">&#xA0;</div> <!-- where the home page composite stream goes -->
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tantek
<div class="section recent-articles"></div> <!-- what I coded at IndieWebCampHollywood -->
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tantek
my templates are valid markup in and of themselves (never understood why CMS templates had to use random other languages / escape codes)
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tantek
is wondering if we do publish our templates publicly, would it make sense to come up with microformat conventions for the pieces of a template that are meant to be "filled in" by a publishing engine that reads the template as well as a datastore of some sort.
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barnabywalters
sort of like the TAL approach
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barnabywalters
tantek: that sounds a little like ONE TEMPLATE ENGINE TO RULE THEM ALL
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tantek
right now I'm using class names "stream" and "recent-articles" on my home page as "fill in this element" template hooks.
#
tantek
barnabywalters - hence why I stuck with simple class names rather than anything microformatty.
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tantek
would rather avoid designing a big template engine.
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barnabywalters
I still use php files so no HTML parsing is required just to display content
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tantek
would sharing templates across systems be useful?
#
tantek
portable templates?
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barnabywalters
probably not in macro, maybe for very small things
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tantek
one possible advantage - front end devs/designers could focus on making nice templates, and then swap out backend systems written by others.
#
tantek
barnabywalters - I'm trying to use PHP files purely as code execution files (not the original intent of PHP)
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barnabywalters
you could just use HTML files with microformats and dummy/empty content in as the templating language — if the data to go in is microformats2 structured then you don’t need another vocabulary
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barnabywalters
tantek: I mostly do the same, and keep template files well separated from code files
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barnabywalters
PSR-0 requires files to either produce side effects or define symbols (e.g. functions, classes, constants) but never both, which makes a lot of sense
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tantek
barnabywalters, re: don't need another vocabulary - except in *every* instance I have of "filling something in" - it's had a special meaning beyond existing vocabulary
caseorganic joined the channel
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tantek
e.g. "stream" - yes it is a "feed" but it's a very specific type of feed - that for the *home page* (and yes I should have probably named it more specific)
#
tantek
same thing with "recent-articles" - that's a box of just the article names linked to their permalinks
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tantek
and just a few of them - not sure how to capture that semantic of "how many recent articles"
#
tantek
(right now it's a hardcoded constant in the code - though perhaps that number, 3, should come from the template? suggestions welcome)
#
tantek
e.g. instead of "stream" what's a good way to represent "recent updates for the home page including all post types" or "… all post types except… fitness raw data" (or something) ?
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barnabywalters
tantek: hm, I’d say that kind of logic (figuring out special meaning) is the job of the code calling the template
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barnabywalters
rather than having to give the template the smarts to figure out exactly what sort of thing it’s displaying
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tantek
barnabywalters - except the template is typically *designed* with specific presentational intent, thus it should convey that information to the code filling in the template.
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barnabywalters
code calling the template knows what should go in the template based on the URL, the template should know where to put it
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KevinMarks
why &#xA0
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tantek
like how should the code filling in the template know or care about 3 recent articles or 4? shouldn't the template determine that?
#
tantek
KevinMarks - I think to work around a bug in an older version of my code. I could probably take that out.
#
tantek
maybe I need to just study existing template (markup) systems like Blogger, Tumblr, WordPress (any other suggestions) to figure out what information the templates are choosing to convey to the engines underneath.
#
tantek
I hoped someone here with template design experience would have opinions to offer.
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barnabywalters
it would be kinda cool to have declarative templates able to do queries of things
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barnabywalters
e.g. the three latest articles
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tantek
right. but simple queries. I don't want to end up down the XPath/XQuery/SPARQL rabbithole.
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barnabywalters
typically they don’t at the moment because reusability, but in this case it might be better to put the reusability on the layer above
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tantek
simple queries based on real world template needs?
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barnabywalters
because then you can just put data-stream="articles" data-max="3" in *any* template and get useful stuff
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barnabywalters
data-tagged="etc"
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tantek
wouldn't it be nice if you could switch from Tumblr to WordPress or vice-versa but keep your templates that you'd put work into designing?
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tantek
sure - but the data-* attributes are supposed to be system-specific - not for anything cross-system or portable.
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KevinMarks
a lot of the templating languages assume a JSON blob being passed to them
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tantek
KevinMarks - because designers love authoring JSON blobs in templates?
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barnabywalters
hm, that’s not my understanding of the scope of data-* attributes
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tantek
barnabywalters - yeah - that's pretty clear about them in the spec
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barnabywalters
but my understanding is probably wrong
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barnabywalters
so I read http://developers.whatwg.org/content-models.html#embedding-custom-non-visible-data-with-the-data-*-attributes “These attributes are not intended for use by software that is independent of the site that uses the attributes.” and think that whatever site using the templates is using the attributes
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barnabywalters
(welcome to tautology club)
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tantek
barnabywalters - however, since you can install Taproot on any site, it is independent of any specific site.
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KevinMarks
no, 'cos the templates refer to sub elements of structure
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barnabywalters
tantek: but if falcon and taproot both supported these templates, and they *used* them, then they would be… *using* them
#
barnabywalters
what does it mean for a “site” to “use” the attribute?
#
barnabywalters
phrased another way… what *is* a valid use of data-* attributes?
#
barnabywalters
if using them isn’t a valid use
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tantek
using them for site-specific use
#
tantek
like scripting libraries
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barnabywalters
where “site” === domain
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tantek
sorry, site-specific scripting libraries
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mathpunk
etymancer, barnabywalters: check it-- mathpunk.net bio card. not good, but better than bad~
#
tantek
e.g. Twitter has scripting libraries
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barnabywalters
or site === vendor
#
tantek
so they have hooks with data-twitter-* attribute just for their libraries
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mathpunk
and it appears to h-card validate
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KevinMarks
eg Jade is a pretty terse way to make HTML from a JSON structure
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tantek
not intended for any other software or libraries
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etymancer
mathpunk: woot!
#
Loqi
yay!
#
barnabywalters
mathpunk: looks good and parses well! nice work
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etymancer
defintely > bad
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barnabywalters
tantek: okay, that makes a little more sense to me now
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mathpunk
etymancer: I have no clue where you-know-who is storing vim swap files... do you?
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barnabywalters
it’s a pity — they’re an effective way of applying user-customisable key-value pairs to elements
#
barnabywalters
which classnames can’t do so easily
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etymancer
mathpunk: sudo lsof -n|grep '\.sw'
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etymancer
(typically they're in the same directory as the open file)
#
barnabywalters
and <data> elements would be a bit ugly for
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barnabywalters
or, just custom attributes
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tantek
barnabywalters - yeah - I think that's why people resort to JSON blobs for that
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barnabywalters
tantek: not sure I understand — JSON blobs are data given by the calling code to the template, not data given by the template about what should be put in it
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barnabywalters
unless someone somewhere is making HTML templates with JSON *inside*
#
barnabywalters
which would be messed up
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tantek
barnabywalters <script id="blobnnn">JSON blob</script>
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barnabywalters
people do that?!
#
tantek
barnabywalters YES THEY ARE
#
tantek
in fact a lot of pages now send down data like that
#
tantek
um, Twitter, Facebook
#
tantek
view source on your public Facebook profile page
#
tantek
(just curl it)
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KevinMarks
a JSON blob or a variable declaration?
#
barnabywalters
oh right — that’s actual data to fill the template with rather than data given by the template about what it does
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tantek
KevinMarks - add syntactic sugar as needed.
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barnabywalters
it’s still injected into the template by calling code
#
tantek
barnabywalters - splitting hairs
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KevinMarks
you can't curl it without faking a useragent
#
barnabywalters
the calling code is just a js templating library
#
tantek
it's a template that's filled in by clientside JS rather than serverside
#
barnabywalters
but the equivalent in the original context (server side templates) would be storing all your notes in the template
#
KevinMarks
right, that's a common pattern too
#
KevinMarks
point is lots of templating libs have JSON traversal syntax
#
barnabywalters
okay, so the problem I was brainstorming solutions about was the template file itself giving the calling code information about what to fill it with, e.g. the number of posts to fetch
#
barnabywalters
it seems the discussion got a little side-tracked
#
barnabywalters
now off for a walk. bbiab
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KevinMarks
yeah, most of them have iterator syntax, not sure you can easily do a 'just the first 3'
#
tantek
KevinMarks, e.g. my "recent articles" box
#
tantek
on my home page. the information about having *3* recent articles in particular - where should that go? I'm thinking that information should somehow be in the template, as I expect the designer of the template to determine that. Not the calling code.
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KevinMarks
I suppose you could emit all the html and hide beyond 3 with css, but thats a bit odd
#
tantek
also potentially more expensive on the back end
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mathpunk
waaaaaaaat-- I'm moving on to the "h-entry" project but... articles are also h-cards? (??)
#
tantek
"all the html" - you mean go get ALL my past articles?
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Loqi
waaaaaaaat has -1 karma
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tantek
and wasteful
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mathpunk
loqi++
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tantek
(of bandwidth - to send down that much in the home page)
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Loqi
loqi has 209 karma
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tantek
mathpunk, no articles are not h-cards. articles are h-entry which has a p-author which is an h-card
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KevinMarks
right, pagination is always hard.
#
tantek
KevinMarks - but it's not paginated. it's just a simple sidebar box of 3 recent article names linked to their permalinks
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mathpunk
tantek: Does all that h-card data have to go into the p-author? :/
#
tantek
mathpunk - what do you mean by "all that h-card data"?
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KevinMarks
right, but you need a query somewhere to with a LIMIT on
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tantek
KevinMarks - sure, and no reason to query for any more than the presentation needs
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mathpunk
mmm... well, I thought the h-card was a sort of bio-slash-contact card... so I put in my name and pic and location and homepage and whatnot
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KevinMarks
and thus you now need a 2-pass template process.
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tantek
mathpunk - typically, a simple URL+photo+name is great for a p-author h-card
#
mathpunk
but I put that in a div for the end of the page.
#
mathpunk
I was thinking of it as a sort of "about the author" footer
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tantek
KevinMarks - I don't understand why it is two pass.
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tantek
mathpunk - you can do that too
#
tantek
typical practice is to have mini-h-cards for the p-author
#
mathpunk
but it gets duplicated in the posts? that seems weird
#
mathpunk
maybe it just seems weird because I'm handcoding this
#
tantek
or you can use rel=author to link from a mini name only h-card to your home page with a more expansive h-card
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tantek
KevinMarks: 1) read template, extract information about what is needed, 2) query datastore, 3) fill in template with information to generate a page.
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tantek
the only "pass" is in step 1.
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KevinMarks
right, so 2 passes through the template
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tantek
in step 3 you already know all the places to fill in so you're not doing a "pass"
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tantek
that's only one "read" (ergo pass) of the template file
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KevinMarks
well, something is
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KevinMarks
maybe your templating engine is
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tantek
it's just holding onto pointers from the DOM elements found in pass 1
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tantek
and then it fills in those DOM elements
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tantek
that's not a "pass" in that nothing is "passed" by/over
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KevinMarks
you're always walking 2 things at once, the template and the data structure
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KevinMarks
or walking one and querying the other i suppose
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tantek
I guess I don't understand. I just pass/parse the template *once* into a DOMDocument. Then query it to find the nodes to fill in. Get the data. Fill them in. Then output the page.
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jp
lol laptop runs out of charge so plug it in then turn back on
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jp
and then it turns off again after realising it wasnt turned on in wall
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etymancer
waaaaaaaat++
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Loqi
waaaaaaaat has 0 karma
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etymancer
(striving for balance)
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KevinMarks
so 'get the data' is a batch query or a series of them?
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KevinMarks
etymancer: another reason to use proper em dashes
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etymancer
heh
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etymancer
no doubt. silly ascii, overloading punctuation
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tantek
Get the data is a batch query with parameters based on a) which template, and ideally also b) information from the template (like # of recent articles - which is currently hard coded in a constant in the code)
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KevinMarks
if you're looking at pre-existing template implementations, http://garann.github.io/template-chooser/ is a good resource
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tantek
now that's an interesting resource
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tantek.com
created /template (+358) "stub"
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tantek
KevinMarks - it does seem like typical/popular templates do a lot more than we really need for indieweb sites.
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KevinMarks
they do grow like weeds
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KevinMarks
or like PHP
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tantek.com
edited /template (+328) "examples"
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tantek.com
edited /template (+148) "link to specific instructions / how to for Blogger and Tumblr templates"
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tantek
are there any template formats that let you edit "by example" and then fill in your "example data" with real data from the datastore?
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KevinMarks
I think google had over 20 internal template libs when I was there
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tantek
one challenge I have found with all templating languages/formats is that there is no way to quick-preview what a template might look like when you're editing it
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tantek
you have to always try it with "real data"
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KevinMarks
didn't someone just announce that?
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tantek
KevinMarks - yeah I remember seeing that
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tantek
so here's my question
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tantek
instead of <p>{{Latest News}}</p>
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tantek
why not <div class="latest-news">…</div> ?
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tantek
or heck, prefix them if necessary
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tantek
<div class="tscms-latest-news">…</div>
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tantek
why the addition of a new syntax {{…}} ?
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KevinMarks
and this is why google had 20 template languages ;)
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tantek
did any use class names?
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KevinMarks
'cos the {{...}} in mustache/handlebars lets you insert queries on the JSON blob
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KevinMarks
traverse objects and lists
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tantek
so that seems like work
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mathpunk
My brain is full. I will attempt to understand what this means-- http://indiewebify.me/validate-h-entry/?url=mathpunk.net
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mathpunk
tomorrow
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mathpunk
thanks for yr help y'all
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tantek
mathpunk - congrats on your progress!
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KevinMarks
in response to your earlier editing complain, a lot of these libs can do stuff like this: http://olado.github.io/doT/
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tantek
KevinMarks (or anyone) - any suggestions for semantic HTML for marking up a filename?
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tantek
is using <samp> for now
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tantek
since a filename is not really <code>
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KevinMarks
all these things end up being work
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KevinMarks
the question is are you writing in a suitable DSL or having to do it some annoying way
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KevinMarks
at one end you have regexes, at the other you have big nested datastructures you traverse for the bits you want
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tantek
KevinMarks why do I need a DSL rather than "just" using HTML+classes for the template hooks themselves?
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tantek.com
created /newmonth (+83) "stub"
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tantek.com
edited /template (+1060) "Indieweb thoughts, use cases, Falcon"
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KevinMarks
I suspect all these templating languages started that way
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KevinMarks
the question is which ones turn into YAML and which ones stop at JSON, to use a metaphor
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tantek
KevinMarks - yeah I guess I'm naively confused about why they end up descending into so much complexity (and DSL-ness).
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tantek
So I'm going to gather use-cases I've encountered and just try to use simple HTML+classes for myself, and document as such.
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KevinMarks
how long did you spend on CSS3 ;)
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tantek
Kevinmarks - "did"? that sounds like past tense. Plenty of CSS3 modules still in progress. ;)
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barnabywalters
tantek: pure-HTML prior art, just in case you aren’t already aware of it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_Attribute_Language and http://tally.jit.su/
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tantek
(a lot of that, on CSS3, is spending non-trivial time sweating lots of little details)
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tantek
barnabywalters - really appreciate the prior art - was not aware
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barnabywalters
s/pure-HTML/pure-HTML templates
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Loqi
barnabywalters meant to say: tantek: pure-HTML templates prior art, just in case you aren’t already aware of it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_Attribute_Language and http://tally.jit.su/
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tantek
heh - more like XSLT
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tantek
boy all this stuff seems overkill
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tantek
would love to see *any* of them document, hey this feature is here because of the following use cases.
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barnabywalters
so neither of those broadcast their capabilities to the calling code though
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tantek
barnabywalters - what kinds of template use-cases does Taproot have and how does it solve them?
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barnabywalters
tantek: you could probably ask aral about the design decisions behind tally
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tantek
feel free to braindump a brief summary about Taproot and templates here: http://indiewebcamp.com/template#Use_Cases
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barnabywalters
tantek: at the moment, dumb ones. I have some data in an array and I want to make it into HTML quickly
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tantek
it's ok, I'm pretty sure Falcon's use of templates is even dumber ;)
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barnabywalters
so I use about 10 lines of code to do so
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tantek
but I figured I'd start the documentation somewhere
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KevinMarks
I bet noterlive is the dumbest
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tantek
huh, so far Aral's Tally is the least complicated.
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barnabywalters
yeah, TAL is from Zope, which AFAICT was big and complicated, with a strong focus on XML
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tantek.com
edited /template (+302) "add HTML based template formats section with one example of Tally"
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tantek
barnabywalters - yeah, I'm ignoring anything XML based figuring XSLT has that covered.
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barnabywalters
with anonymous functions and everything
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tantek
hey at least you *have* a function
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tantek
I don't even have that. I have pieces of my code that look for specific template constructs.
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tantek.com
edited /template (+101) "/* HTML based template formats */ {} e.g."
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bret
jekyll sites are nearly 100% liquid templates
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barnabywalters
KevinMarks: HTML concatenation ftw
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tantek
bret - not sure what you mean by "liquid templates"
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tantek
concatenation++
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Loqi
concatenation has 1 karma
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KevinMarks
yes, you can inject script into the page you're using, yay
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bret
its just a tempting language
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bret
i hate it
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barnabywalters
how come all these templating languages look almost exactly the same, yet they’re all completely incompatible
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bret
barnabywalters++
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Loqi
barnabywalters has 20 karma
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tantek
seriously
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tantek
{% %} vs. {{ }}
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barnabywalters
they only differ in what subset of functionality they offer
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barnabywalters
so someone could make a meta template library which could render data to all of them
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barnabywalters
oh, and speed I suppose, which matters esp. for client-side templating
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KevinMarks
hello wikisyntaxes
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barnabywalters
what’s the name for when it’s socially acceptable to reinvent the wheel in some minuscule with a shiny site and a fancy name?
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barnabywalters
that is where we are with templating languages
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barnabywalters
s/miniscule/miniscule way
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KevinMarks
these templating languages eventually converge on PHP
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barnabywalters
KevinMarks: LOL
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KevinMarks
liquid is pretty close
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barnabywalters
“first they grew cURL bindings… by then it was too late”
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bret
Here is an interesting way to do templating… never tried myself but I like the idea http://camendesign.com/dom_templating
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KevinMarks
I suppose http://jade-lang.com/ is converging on python instead
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barnabywalters
bret: ooh, so someone *has* made a classname (or at least CSS-selector) based HTML templating language
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barnabywalters
s/language/library
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Loqi
barnabywalters meant to say: bret: ooh, so someone *has* made a classname (or at least CSS-selector) based HTML templating library
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tantek.com
edited /Falcon (+685) "/* Working On */ archives, after other things in the list, link to templates as a reminder to iterate on that too."
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barnabywalters
tantek: ^^^^ nice prior art, especially the code API
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tantek.com
edited /template (+79) "/* HTML based template formats */ add Templating With DOM"
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KevinMarks
the JS based ones are DSLs that compile to functions like my fugly ones
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tantek.com
edited /template (+158) "/* HTML based template formats */ add liquid {% %} example"
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tantek
This: "Special syntaxes invent another language to intermix with HTML and thus add programatic concepts to a declartive syntax—which is not clean separation no matter what you name it. "
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tantek
and this! "If you are trying to replace HTML or CSS with JavaScript, you are doing it wrong and have just signed a maintenance contract from hell, with yourself, for yours and your data’s life. "
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bret
XD also note in the view source… no class names! He is like an html5 monk
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KevinMarks
that's a well-expressed version of Tantek's thesis
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KevinMarks
I suspect the use cases for a lot of these are "I have a big JSON blog from an arbitrary API, and I want to make something pretty"
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tantek
Kevinmarks - so they're working backwards then, from storage to UI?
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KevinMarks
or they're client-side people who don't get to change the API
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tantek
as opposed to, I've designed this awesome UI, now I need to specify how the variable content pieces of it can be retrieved from some datastore
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tantek
hmm - I can't understand from this how looping works: http://camendesign.com/dom_templating
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tantek
where the simple markup example of an element that is repeated?
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tantek
and the count of how many times?
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tantek
KevinMarks - * simple markup example*
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barnabywalters
so I think you’d have one <div class="list-item">
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tantek
and * count of how many times*
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barnabywalters
and then that code clones it for each item in $data
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barnabywalters
so in this example the count is still determined by the data and not the template
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tantek
designers like to determine counts from the front end
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barnabywalters
but as they’re both loaded at the same time it would be trivial to slice $data by some attribute in the template
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tantek
e.g. most recent 3 articles ;)
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tantek
sure - just wondering if that system has such a mechanism
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tantek
or if it has to be added
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barnabywalters
agreed, I think having the template broadcast it’s capabilities/constraints is a great idea
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KevinMarks
that description sounds very like my noterlive munging
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tantek
it does
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KevinMarks
I suppose I'm thinking single pass because of that, as the process is interactive
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tantek.com
edited /template (+157) "/* HTML based template formats */ capture questions/issues re: Templating With DOM"
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KevinMarks
I never end up closing the last blockquote as I don't have a button for that.
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tantek
well "Templating With DOM" is the closest prior art to what I'm looking for so I'll probably use ideas/concepts from there
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KevinMarks
you could use the number of children in the source to decide how many times to iterate
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tantek
but I agree strongly with this goal: "… the HTML file itself can be designed independently of the software, and that whoever does the HTML doesn’t have to know PHP"
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KevinMarks
with 1 meaning 'as many as you have'
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tantek
KevinMarks - yeah that's an interesting idea
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bret
he also does a markdown fork http://camendesign.com/code/remarkable
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barnabywalters
that has the advantage of the template looking as close to the intended output as possible
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tantek
and that way you could even fill in the children with sample output just to see what the design looked like while editing the template
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KevinMarks
'cos otherwise why would you specify a 1 element list?
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barnabywalters
which, as a designer, is a good thing to have
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tantek
heh barnabywalters :)
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tantek
Kevinmarks - good reasoning.
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barnabywalters
I think some of Aral’s examples do this
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barnabywalters
the dummy items have a data-tally-dummy attribute or something
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tantek
KevinMarks - please add those thoughts to: http://indiewebcamp.com/template#IndieWeb_Thoughts
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tantek
Kevinmarks - I like the idea of using elements to represent explicit counts as it's more designer-literal / preview friendly
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barnabywalters
this also completely avoids the need to create the “helpers” every templating language accumulates
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barnabywalters
they just become functions which you call in code, where they belong
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barnabywalters
and where they are more reusable, instead of being wrapped in framework padding
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KevinMarks
does that presume you always use <ol> or <li> for repeating elements?
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KevinMarks
or is the knowledge of what will repeat be encoded in the code?
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tantek
or <ul>
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KevinMarks
er I meant <ul>
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tantek
I think yes, there is an implication of (re)using HTML semantics for template semantics.
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KevinMarks
now we're talking XOXO
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tommorris
Remarkable looks... interesting. That it turns "//google.com" into "http://google.com" seems silly though. Protocol-relative URIs are a thing.
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tantek
Kevinmarks, so even <ul> vs. <ol> as to whether its ordered or not
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tantek
perhaps even using the new "reversed" attribute to indicate reverse ordering, e.g. most recent posts first
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tommorris
http://camendesign.com/dont_wanna is a thoroughly good takedown of the whole web->web.js movement
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kevinmarks.com
edited /template (+377) "/* HTML based template formats */"
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jp
finally got my domain pointing to my vps and nginx installed but i'm not sure where the html files are located - theres no www folder
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jp
anyone have any ideas
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KevinMarks
lol at application/xhtml+xml+screw+you+IE
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bret
i think
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bret
there should be a default site defined there
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bret
or the location of it
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bret
someone dragged me through that configuration file the other day… still learning about it myself
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jp
there's something there... its not the default index.html its all a mish mash in notepad let me open in notepad++
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tantek
bret, want to start http://indiewebcamp.com/nginx with those tips?
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jp
its a .txt
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tantek
… and FAQ?
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bret
jp that is the config file… there should be a section that covers the default site
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bret
thats all i can help you with though… thats as far as I got
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bret
tantek sure
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bret
jp in that section there should be a path to the default site. This is all from memory though… you are going to have to poke around
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KevinMarks
that was odd. my phone rang, and I accidentally hit the hang up button, and it transferred to hangouts on the chromebook
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jp
woohooo
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jp
found it thanks
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KevinMarks
google voice finally behaving right
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KevinMarks
reading this camendesgn site I want to send him a pull request to fix typos like tantek did for me
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bret
you could keep a charged, unpaid for cell phone around for emergency and just use google hangouts as a phone number for free…. aaaand you are no longer paying AT&T
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bret
jp can you confirm the path of /etc/nginx/sites_available?
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bret
is that correct?
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KevinMarks
not sure it even needs to be charged
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KevinMarks
you do need to be able to put int he redirect string
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KevinMarks
if you call my google voice # I think hangouts rings
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bret.io
created /nginx (+202) "Created page with "{{stub}} Nginx is commonly used a http webserver similar to [[apache]]. The default configuration lives in /etc/nginx/sites_available although this location may vary depending...""
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barnabywalters
so, not sure whether I want to build my own DOM templating from scratch or try to work on kroc’s code
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barnabywalters
more implementations is probably better
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bret
maybe play with it
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jp
still need to fix the zone file thingies
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jp
www. isnt working
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jp
and the MX records arent in the right place
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bret
nice jp
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barnabywalters
jp: looking good!
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jp
need to redo it and use <article> <nav> etc
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jp
its all divs atm
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barnabywalters
hmm I’m going to roll my own as kroc’s code is very XML focused
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bret
i saw that too
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KevinMarks
why doesn't indiewebcamp.com have a favicon?
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bret
it has an apple touch icon though!
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KevinMarks
that doesn't help me when I have too many tabs in chrome
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KevinMarks
hm, my site hasn't got a favicon either
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barnabywalters
if I reuse the querySelector and querySelectorAll method names from the JS DOM, will people be annoyed if they have to pass a context node in a la jQuery?
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barnabywalters
instead of having to wrap every single DOMElement in yet another wrapper class
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tantek
barnabywalters: re: "not sure" - perhaps start with documenting your template use cases first in a new subsection here: http://indiewebcamp.com/template#Use_Cases
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barnabywalters
tantek: I looked at krocs code and I am sure now. But I will document my thoughts anyway
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tantek
would be great to see your thoughts too
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tantek
I'll likely consider your use cases while improving my own templating support
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barnabywalters
I’ll start an implementation brainstorming section
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barnabywalters
this makes too much sense not to build :)
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /template (+1125) "/* IndieWeb Thoughts */ added Taproot template use cases"
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /template (+1126) "/* HTML based template formats */ dumped a load of implementation brainstorming"
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KevinMarks
so, do you strip the 'template' classes on output?
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barnabywalters
KevinMarks: I doubt it’ll be necessary
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KevinMarks
thinking about this a bit more, is not a page marked up in microformats effectively a template?
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barnabywalters
I’m not building a system which strongly couples classes to behaviour, basically just a DOM manipulation toolkit optimised for template use
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KevinMarks
you can parse it to get the JSON
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barnabywalters
KevinMarks: no reason it can’t be, just make the templating library replace mf2 classnames with values
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KevinMarks
you can also parse it to get the shell left by that JSON, and replace it with something else