#indiewebcamp 2013-11-21

2013-11-21 UTC
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tantek https://twitter.com/t/status/403310204894199809
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@t design Qs when coding a new #indieweb post type:
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tantek so that's interesting - why does Loqi respect the whitespace in a tweet when I paste the tweet URL in IRC, but NOT when Loqi gets the tweet via search API?
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Loqi :)
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tantek cc: aaronpk
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bnvk is there a page on IWC for travel data?
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bnvk man, this travel data is really fun
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bret Just your handy, run your own mailserver tutorial http://flurdy.com/docs/postfix/ :rolleyes:
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bret this is why everyone uses google
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bnvk bret: wat, you don't like that aesthetic of web design? Dude, it's totally retro :P
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bret The design of the tutorial is fine
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bnvk hehe
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bnvk Too many steps? You don't like sys admin-ing for hours?
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bret Email servers are wicked complicated to use, right now in the present
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bret i have better things to do, like complain about it on irc
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bret :p
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bret please tell me mailpile will cut this down to the same ammount of work as running wordpress
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snarfed hell yes, agreed. setting up a mail server is an especially big sysadmin task, and then running it is especially big too
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snarfed deliverability, spam filtering, triaging when you get onto an RBL, etc
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snarfed no fun
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snarfed not to mention figuring out and implementing *all* of the different DKIM variants since every recipient SMTP server wants a different one
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snarfed whee
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tantek and that's why email is a deadend
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tantek it's lost its tinkerability
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tantek @jf and kevinmarks have made it to the Homebrew Website Club meeting already
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tantek hope to see you soon snarfed!
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tantek (and anyone else in the bay area that can make it to @MozSF)
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bret I
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bret I want to go to HWC:PDX :)
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tantek bret - how about you co-organize it with aaronpk (he wants to do one in PDX also)
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bret wish I could make it to tonight
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snarfed tantek: see you in 15ish!
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tantek snarfed - awesome!
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bret tantek thats a super good idea L
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tantek bret the next one is 2013-12-04
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tantek you could aim for doing it the same night as the one in SF
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tantek maybe we could setup a video wall :)
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bret :D
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bret MozPDZ to MozSF
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tantek YES
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tantek ping your MozPDX friends about using their space
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tantek we already have 2 way video working from space to space
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bret that would be the coolest computer club evaaarrr
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KevinMarks using webRTC?
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bret I'm going to have to defer to aaronpk, I dont know that many people at mozpdx, despite being there twice
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bret KevinMarks moz has this insane video conference system
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bret its from the future
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bret I could ping dietrich ayala, but I just met him breifly the other day. Wish I talked with him some more
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KevinMarks I think it's looking at me, it has a blue light on
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bret :)
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bret brendan eich see's all!
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bnvk bret: ah sorry, got distracted tinkering
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bnvk Mailpile is not actually going to be a server- at least for the 1.0 version
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bnvk we do have schemes to bundle a stable, wordpress ease of install mail server, but not right off the bat
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bret We could start a webRTC room for remote HWC if people want
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bret https://talky.io/hwc
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tantek bret - dietrich is a fan of the indieweb
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tantek ping him and tell him I sent you
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bret okl
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bret ok*
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bnvk and tantek: I'm gonna push back on "deadend" due to being non tinkerable- there are loads of things people depend on daily that are no longer "tinkerable"
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KevinMarks joins
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tantek bnvk - such things usually are ripe for getting replaced by things that *are* tinkerable, and eventually *are replaced*
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tantek so if you identify such things, please speak up, so we can replace them :D
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bnvk mmmm washing machines
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tantek mmmm hardware
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KevinMarks forgets old video conf testing rule: don't join from 2 cameras in the same palce
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bnvk tantek: is hardware exempt some your theory?
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tantek no, just slower
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tantek hence makerbots etc.
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bnvk hmmmm
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tantek the easiest non-tinkerable hardware stuff to disrupt is getting disrupted first
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tantek it's only a matter of time before all non-tinkerable hardware is disrupted by tinkerable hardware, based on where makerbot etc. are going
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tantek but yes, that will take longer than software/servers
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bnvk gotcha
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bnvk it's an interesting notion
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bnvk so is the root of it something along the lines of- humans have innate desire to tinker with their tools and things in their environment, thus things with high tinkerability will prove to be better in an evolutionary sort of way?
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tantek that sounds close yes
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tantek tinkerable things are able to out evolve non-tinkerable things
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bnvk ok, I'll go along with that, has a nice energy to it
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bnvk and things that are "non tinkerable" or below the threshold basically get abandoned?
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snarfed hey tantek! I'm here at the door
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bret bnvk sorry to peace out like that, other responsibilities are calling
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bnvk No worries! Cheers
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KevinMarks webcasting at https://talky.io/hwc
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@kevinmarks #indieweb We're webcasting the Homebrew Website Club at https://talky.io/hwc (twitter.com/_/status/403354237494521858)
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bnvk KevinMarks: hrm, I'm the only one there
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: Homebrew computer club started when microprocessors got cheap enough for individuals - in 1975 (twitter.com/_/status/403354515316805632)
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KevinMarks give it a sec, my Nexus 7 is sending it. I heard a join
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: I have a software update pending on my Mac and iPod that will force me to use iCloud - timesharing returns (twitter.com/_/status/403355044818333696)
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KevinMarks maybe chrome n7 isn't up to it?
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bnvk tantek: is there no dedicated page on the wiki for Travel data?
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bret webrtc has to broadcast to all clients connected
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bnvk the only thing I'm finding is http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/Hollywood/Sharing_Travel_Plans
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bret does not scale well by default
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KevinMarks tantek isn't reading irc
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bnvk ?
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bret bnvk check out aaronpks attempts
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bnvk yah- i've been modeling mine after his
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bret http://aaronparecki.com/travel
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bret ahh ok
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bnvk I've got a few different things tho, I wanted to add
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bret not sure if its on the wiki
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bnvk and that page looks more like a stub from the Hollywood hacki
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bnvk http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/Hollywood/Sharing_Travel_Plans
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: Lee woudl say "welcome to the Homebrew Website Club, which does not exist" (twitter.com/_/status/403355665483042819)
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KevinMarks is the webRTC not working? I see joins and exits
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bret KevinMarks it wasnt for me, i dont think talky works on tablets that well
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bret for more than one client
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bnvk I dunno, I was there, but you were just a black box Kevin
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bnvk but bret and I were doing it nicely
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bret i can't tune in right now, but maybe bnvk and others do. Maybe google hangouts work work better
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @jf: I host my own domain using the github tool Jekyll, but I want OpenStreetMap, Wikipedia et al on my computer (twitter.com/_/status/403356898633584641)
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bret would*
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@joshuajuran RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @jf: I host my own domain using the github tool Jekyll, but I want OpenStreetMap, Wikipedia et al on my computer (twitter.com/_/status/403357161192833024)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @kevinmarks: I hack on indieweb stuff. I have my stuff at http://www.kevinmarks.com/ on a static site (twitter.com/_/status/403357243120168961)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @benwerd: I've been running my own domain on wordpress but I wanted to make my own, hence idno (twitter.com/_/status/403357485077000192)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @benwerd: I was really interested in POSSE - lots of people don't understand sending things out from your own site (twitter.com/_/status/403357659471949826)
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KevinMarks next time I'll bring a ChromeBook to be the webcast machine
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KevinMarks :D
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @benwerd: I care about giving people meaningful control without losing functionality (twitter.com/_/status/403357925252423680)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @benwerd: I'm also interested in how indieweb and POSSE applies to companies as well as individuals (twitter.com/_/status/403358028352593920)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @_pius: I'm at pius.me I'm interested in the domain name as the new phone number - I want to get a domain services for non-tech (twitter.com/_/status/403358891984973824)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @iboxifoo: I used @al3x's Sovereign to set up a lot of services on my own domain using ansible (twitter.com/_/status/403359136626126848)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @iboxifoo: this gets me ownCloud - like dropbox, calendar, webserver, etc - paying $20/mo an SSL cert for $100 (twitter.com/_/status/403359403945902081)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: I like that people are taking different approaches and solving different problems (twitter.com/_/status/403359546715815940)
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@AndrewHazlett @Chris_Ashworth check out the #indieweb discussion on related topics (twitter.com/_/status/403359618614583296)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: Wordpress and Drupal are like minicomputers - the expense is not money but time learning how to hack (twitter.com/_/status/403359659391594497)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: each has community, but there is almost an initiation rite that make you commit to 1 codebase to rule them all (twitter.com/_/status/403359814408884226)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: this monoculture antipattern is getting repeated over and over - appreciate we're doing different things (twitter.com/_/status/403359915894263809)
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bear bret, talky.io works on tablets that have the latest chrome or firefox. It in general only does well for 1-3 users
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: there are different technical skills, and we appreciate that. Building blocks at http://indiewebcamp.com (twitter.com/_/status/403360197495627776)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: I want to solve how to do good event posts - seems like a hard problem, especially design and UX (twitter.com/_/status/403360313694633984)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @benwerd: the invitations associated with an event are also important- we don't have a mechanism for that (twitter.com/_/status/403360452417056768)
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bear hmm, I don't think we have tried ever to use talky.io as a broadcast tool
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KevinMarks I could run hangouts, but that seems like cheating ;)
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dietrich bret: howdy
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dietrich what's up
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KevinMarks webRTC should be capable of broadcast
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bear it can, you just have to have a rebroadcaster on the server side - in browser things like talky.io would melt under that load
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @jaylovespie: I'm a UI designer. I have my own website at http://www.jaywong.co/ but I'm not happy with wordpress (twitter.com/_/status/403361282180390913)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @jaylovespie: wordpress seems a lot heavier - everyone is trying to use it for ecommerce (twitter.com/_/status/403361442457341952)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @matthewlevine: My site is http://t.co/clSiWWDOVI- it's mostly placeholder and pointers to other presences. It runs on appengine (twitter.com/_/status/403361591975874560)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @matthewlevine: I'm interested in the UX of publishing itself, and in better ways to tell stories through websites (twitter.com/_/status/403361696787349504)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @matthewlevine: I'm interested in the PESOS stuff, where POSSE falls short - fitbit does that will, but I want it on my site (twitter.com/_/status/403361820917784577)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @matthewlevine: I want to use these other things to tell my own story on my own website (twitter.com/_/status/403361934050746368)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @matthewlevine: it would be great to have activity stream compatible updates form all these devices, but it doesn't exist (twitter.com/_/status/403362142142730241)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @matthewlevine: I'd like a proxy that translates the fitbit, Up etc sites into activity streams (twitter.com/_/status/403362306576224256)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @snarfed_org: I have a proxy that turns facebook, twitter g etc into activity streams, @matthewlevine we should talk (twitter.com/_/status/403362674567680000)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @snarfed_org: everyone who makes self-tracking things has a different api (twitter.com/_/status/403362863705632770)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @kevinmarks: hardware people tend to make up their own formats even more than software people (twitter.com/_/status/403362983822127104)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: it's handy when laziness and self-interest combine to make lockin (twitter.com/_/status/403363060733050881)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @jaylovespie: I want to have all my stuff in one place that is co-ordinated and under my control (twitter.com/_/status/403363185240989696)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @jaylovespie: I want to have a website to organise my life (twitter.com/_/status/403363297350541312)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @benwerd: the Personal Cloud movement seem to not want it to be a website, but more of a box (twitter.com/_/status/403363455530311680)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @benwerd: I want to say 'these are mine, these are visible to you too' (twitter.com/_/status/403363565072961536)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: by globally accsessible I want accsessibel to me (twitter.com/_/status/403363626670493696)
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Loqi [@kevinmarks] #indieweb @snarfed_org: when indieweb we focus on sharing to people first
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Loqi personal cloud on things just for ourselves (http://twtr.io/f1XRHwwSsp)
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bret dietrich you are here :) I was at unhosted the other day
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: we start from the simpler problem, because public is simpler (twitter.com/_/status/403363918434684928)
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bret we met briefly
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: you'll get to private faster if you do public first (twitter.com/_/status/403364016849821698)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @matthewlevine: all the stuff that I want to be private, I want a record of every spend, but maybe a public summary (twitter.com/_/status/403364203668320256)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: your transactions on VenMo by default are not private - your friends can favorite and comment on them (twitter.com/_/status/403364383348101121)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @matthewlevine: I want to share with some people, not with everyone (twitter.com/_/status/403364560284815361)
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bret dietrich, i was :( I couldn't make it to http://tantek.com/2013/322/b1/homebrew-computer-club-reunion-inspiration in SF and was talking with tantek about doing one simultaneously at mozPDX next time to take advantage of the communication
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bret I would want to coordinate with aaronpk, but would you care to sponsor such an event at mozPDX?
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bret errr allow use of that space
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @_pius: Path is trying to be the place that you share everything with a few people. (twitter.com/_/status/403364800563916800)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @jaylovespie: path is trying to build a narrative of your life, intertwined with friends, but reality, not public stuff (twitter.com/_/status/403364966494781441)
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bret bear good to know about talky, also howdy (was at webRTC camp!) Maybe a chrome update was needed in this case
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bear hi :)
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bear yes, or firefox beta
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bret I should have rephrase my statement above to a maybe* talky isnt working...
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Loqi [@kevinmarks] #indieweb @jaylovespie: with path I have to narrate my own story
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Loqi if I have a feed of expenses under my control I can do more (http://twtr.io/f1XwsQBtxL)
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Loqi agreed.
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @benwerd: if I'm looking at my life I want something like Mint, but under my control (twitter.com/_/status/403365527977857025)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @kevinmarks: I find Mint frustrating because it tells me things I already know and give bad pie charts (twitter.com/_/status/403365640678825985)
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bear oh, no worries, we are constantly working on it and testing - so yea, it will fail a lot for a lot of stuff :)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @kevinmarks: Path I have stopped using because I wasn't sure what I had I wanted to share with that group specifically (twitter.com/_/status/403365766646337536)
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aaronpk bnvk: I haven't started a wiki page on travel plans but that's a great idea!
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: the trap is 'why can't one person solve it' is false -we need a plurality of approaches (twitter.com/_/status/403365900151054337)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @snarfed_org: the other extreme is everyone has to write their own stack for themselves - we want a collection (twitter.com/_/status/403365995961536512)
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bnvk aaronpk: yah, i'll jot down all the things that occurred to me while cobbling together my page today :)
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@adamgurri RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @kevinmarks: I find Mint frustrating because it tells me things I already know and give bad pie charts (twitter.com/_/status/403366085958713344)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @snarfed_org: we don't want everyone to write code, but (twitter.com/_/status/403366154720116736)
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bnvk now, to bed I go
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: open source communities are engrained in there being only one service (twitter.com/_/status/403366237322768385)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @_pius: we have these high level things like medium, wordpress and low level like AWS we need things inbetween (twitter.com/_/status/403366374900113410)
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aaronpk oh cool HWC is right now! I just woke up :)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @matthewlevine: I like having a lot of examples that we learn from, with a curve people can climb up (twitter.com/_/status/403366508018937856)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @jaylovespie: I like tumblr - it's like if Blogger 2005 had updated to 2013 - it's easy to make it nice. (twitter.com/_/status/403366634842103808)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @matthewlevine: tumblr makes it too easy to make nice themes - MySpace forced you to copy and paste HTML (twitter.com/_/status/403366752836263936)
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bret aaronpk, what do you think about doing a HWC:PDX?
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @iboxifoo: you do worry if these thinsg are going to survive - tumblr, blogger will all rot. (twitter.com/_/status/403366933132615681)
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aaronpk bret: totally!
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KevinMarks is someone on the webrtc?
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KevinMarks I see a black box
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bret I can help organize
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aaronpk KevinMarks: i'm trying
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aaronpk I also see a black box
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KevinMarks o_O
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bear what browser version aaronpk?
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aaronpk I don't think it's a problem on my end cause I was using talky.io fine from here with esripdx people yesterday
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bret KevinMarks firefox beta and updated chrome should work
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@IanGertler @kevinmarks re: #indieweb @t 'why can't one person solve it' is false - we need a plurality of approaches > Yes, collaborative approaches! (twitter.com/_/status/403367229170790400)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @kevinmarks: I've been live tweeting with my indieweb tool www.noterlive,com (twitter.com/_/status/403367710001610752)
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aaronpk bear: Chrome 31. but it was working fine for me from here yesterday.
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jp not working for me either on Chrome 31
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bear we are trying to track down a chrome 31 change to the error handling currently - sounds like you are hitting
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bear it silently fails to our lib
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aaronpk oh weird, but nothing changed on my computer between yesterday and today
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bear IIRC it's on the browser who started the talky session, not joins
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aaronpk ah
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bear so you have a video peer session, but zero data being sent to that pipe
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bear right now we are seeing Opera 18 have the strongest quality with fewer errors
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mathpunk what the-- aaronpk
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bret aaronpk not sure if you saw the logs, what do you think about an event at mozpdx at the same time as the hwc in sf?
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mathpunk time zones are fucked up... you must have slept, and then become awake again
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mathpunk how is that possible
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aaronpk bret: yes was catching up! I'd love to do that
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aaronpk mathpunk: lol yes, I went to sleep around midnight
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bret are you back in pdx?
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aaronpk I'm at +0400 which is 12 hours ahead of PDX. it's a really confusing timezone shift
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bret also, mathpunk welcome! I read your introduction yesterday
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aaronpk also confusing is I'm getting on a plane tonight at 2am and landing in PDX Friday morning. I only have one night of sleep ahead of me before I land but you guys have 2.
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mathpunk here is etymancer. he made my vps serve terrifying, dark-night-of-the-soul index cards to our mothers
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etymancer heh
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etymancer 'lo all
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mathpunk i have an introduction? jeeesus.
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mathpunk hi bret!
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bret the all seeing irc logs :)
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mathpunk ah yes
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bret http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-11-19/line/1384890609
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mathpunk i've just watched @mike_FTW raging at designers and i'm amped for sitemaking
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bret hey etymancer
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mathpunk indiewebcamp: the friendliest panopticon
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bret mathpunk i started my website with the goal of NOT learning html
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etymancer :)
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etymancer mathpunk: so yeah, I'm here, but I'm also broccoli and stuff
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bret but then I started reading about html5 and just kept reading and reading and reading
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mathpunk broccoli > most
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bret etymancer are you new here too?
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@kevinmarks Notes from tonights inaugural Homebrew Website Club at http://www.kevinmarks.com/hwc2013-11-20.html #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/403371856406659072)
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etymancer bret: new in the channel, aye
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bret cool! welcome :)
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tantek and the first Homebrew Website Club meeting is now officially closed! Thanks everyone for coming and in particular KevinMarks for tweeting up a storm. :)
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etymancer thanks!
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mathpunk etymancer: to catch you up, aaronpk got me to this point-- https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1717994/photos/Screenshot from 2013-11-20 10:59:32.png
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mathpunk ugh, spaces sorry
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bret buhh, repost that url
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etymancer import urllib;urllib.quote(that)
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mathpunk I asked @Eric_WVGG (aka D. Shwanky) to send me whatever archive of my last wp site was appropriate and I'll figure it out later. I want to start fresh
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mathpunk "https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1717994/photos/Screenshot from 2013-11-20 10:59:32.png"
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mathpunk frown
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aaronpk etymancer: so there's apparently no web server on the new VPS if I found the IP address of the vps properly
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aaronpk https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1717994/photos/Screenshot%20from%202013-11-20%2010:59:32.png
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etymancer yeah, no, it's pretty bare
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aaronpk ideally we can get mathpunk set up with a minimal environment to start, just something to post HTML files in
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etymancer sure
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etymancer I have a script for that
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mathpunk (and log in to the COOL WIKI)
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mathpunk I have beer and nicotine and rage-- now what?
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etymancer so, this 66.33.209.151 - this is unfamiliar
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aaronpk etymancer: that's dreamhost
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mathpunk (where the wp site I mentioned is)
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etymancer oh aye
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@tomforemski RT @kevinmarks: Notes from tonights inaugural Homebrew Website Club at http://www.kevinmarks.com/hwc2013-11-20.html #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/403373208302149632)
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etymancer so, you want to set up a new subdomain and point it at the VPS?
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aaronpk it sounds like mathpunk wants to just ditch the current site completely
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etymancer ah, k
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mathpunk let's say, yes. I want to be building a thing-a-day(yeahright) portfolio, and have a subd for our app when it's more appy
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etymancer ok, and what currently comes up when you hit mathpunk.net, do you want that to still be available or just burn it?
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bret oh cool pius made it :)
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bret reading http://www.kevinmarks.com/hwc2013-11-20.html now
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mathpunk burn it all, it's neglected
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etymancer coolio
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bret fire
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mathpunk i mean, i want the data-- I assume that's not lost if we just repoint the thing
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mathpunk all the fire
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etymancer love it with fire to death
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Loqi gives mathpunk the data
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mathpunk burn it to save it
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mathpunk THX LOQI
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mathpunk loqi: u r the best
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Loqi is done
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mathpunk loqi: nooo
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bret I belive in Loqi
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bret I'm a Loqiver
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mathpunk aaronpk: where're those loqi greatest hits?
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aaronpk http://loqisaur.tumblr.com/
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mathpunk thx
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etymancer hm, oughtta be a way to archive it? I'd hesitate to switch over the DNS just yet since it's a virtual host. just hitting the IP won't get you the contents
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etymancer sorry, I'm not very dreamhost- or wordpress-savvy
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bret aaronpk someone introduced me to http://dearesri.tumblr.com/ at maptimepdx
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bret XD
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mathpunk lemme quote Eric_WVGG
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aaronpk oh my
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mathpunk "re: the old site, it’s on my crusty old server and I don’t know where many of the passwords were. Do you have any object to me changing the passwords now, backing up the old data, and potentially breaking access to the old site? This won’t prevent you from redirecting the site to the new home."
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aaronpk mathpunk: maybe easiest is to do a wordpress export from the admin interface? then at least you can import into a new wordpress later if you want
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etymancer yeah, that's what I was thinking. or if eric's got it backed up, that'll do too
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mathpunk i can get in,doing so
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mathpunk wow look at all these inspiring comments, apparently some actual people with not great english are v. impressed with my writrings and laysout
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mathpunk "This format, which we call WordPress eXtended RSS or WXR, will contain your posts, pages, comments, custom fields, categories, and tags."
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mathpunk I have downloaded that thing, and surely that will suffice
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mathpunk (?)
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etymancer perfect
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bear mathpunk - just be aware that uploaded photos will not be in the export data tarball
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mathpunk bear: thanks, pretty sure I've uploaded none, or if I did they're flickr'd
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bear it caught me by surprise, but fortunately I didn't burn the original before I had done my wp -> markdown conversion
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mathpunk REMAIN CALM BURN EVERYTHING
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etymancer ok, so. for the nonce I'm thinking I'll just set up nginx
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mathpunk wouldn't it be easier for me to compile clojurescript to node?
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etymancer apache seems a bit much for this
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etymancer node can go behind nginx, but the latter can also handle static files
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mathpunk i was trolling :(
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etymancer which is what I thought was the first step?
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etymancer I wondered, but low on cycles
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bear nginx proxy pass thru to nodejs is very straight forward
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mathpunk omg
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etymancer 404 humor not found
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mathpunk a brother can't troll anymore
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aaronpk mathpunk++
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mathpunk fsck,I've missed irc
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Loqi mathpunk has 2 karma
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bear sorry - i've been doing this for so long it's just far easier for me to ignore troll attempts
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mathpunk the last time i was srsly on irc it was to roleplay vampires so--
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mathpunk you guys have been in the shit
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mathpunk i'll try and be good
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mathpunk I would like to know what nginx is. I am guessing it is telling python, yo start a web server on port X and serve whatever you find in Y directory
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@phoenix2life RT @kevinmarks: Notes from tonights inaugural Homebrew Website Club at http://www.kevinmarks.com/hwc2013-11-20.html #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/403377115455709184)
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bear nginx is a http server
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aaronpk mathpunk: nginx and apache are about the same, they are web servers that can both a) serve static HTML files and b) send requests to something else behind the scenes like php or node or python or other web servers
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etymancer nginx is yeah
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bear just like apache
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etymancer except for not ancient ;)
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aaronpk meh, ancient just means there's more docs for it
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@phoenix2life RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @kevinmarks: I've been live tweeting with my indieweb tool www.noterlive,com (twitter.com/_/status/403377277796233216)
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etymancer there is that
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@phoenix2life RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @iboxifoo: you do worry if these thinsg are going to survive - tumblr, blogger will all rot. (twitter.com/_/status/403377333844729856)
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bear if you talk to node and go folks, they think nginx is long in the tooth and will tell you to just put the go code public facing
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@phoenix2life RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @matthewlevine: tumblr makes it too easy to make nice themes - MySpace forced you to copy and paste HTML (twitter.com/_/status/403377401339461632)
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etymancer hah
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etymancer nothing could go wrong with that
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etymancer hm, what the heck, I'll install them both and see which I can get working first
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bear nothing at all
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Loqi [@phoenix2life] RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @jaylovespie: with path I have to narrate my own story
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Loqi if I have a feed of expenses under my control I can do mo… (http://twtr.io/f1bMkGwp41)
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etymancer this is the multiest-tasking I've been in some time. hope I don't destroy anything
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@phoenix2life RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @matthewlevine: I'm interested in the UX of publishing itself, and in better ways to tell stories through websites (twitter.com/_/status/403377789803319296)
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mathpunk etymancer: I trust you and it's not like there's much to preserve. just so long as I know what's happening and I can add new experiments
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etymancer mathpunk: I'm more worried about the tofurkey
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mathpunk omg
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aaronpk once you get a web server like nginx or apache set up, you can do lots of experiments by using subdomains
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mathpunk is worried about the tofurky
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@snarfed_org RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @snarfed_org: I have a proxy that turns facebook, twitter g etc into activity streams, @matthewlevine we should … (twitter.com/_/status/403378855273959424)
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mathpunk kevin shhhh
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etymancer mathpunk: ok, it's "ready"
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etymancer need to switch the DNS over
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etymancer you have vr.org credentials, yes?
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mathpunk yes
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etymancer ok, so, log in there and look for something that looks nameservery :)
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aaronpk he's a pro at DNS now
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mathpunk hm.... although I didn't realize Seattle was in the north of China...
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mathpunk mathpunk.net | A | 66.33.209.151
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mathpunk change to livre's ip ya?
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etymancer yep
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mathpunk done
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etymancer cool. due to the magic of internets, that will take "some time"
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mathpunk roger
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etymancer meanwhile, let's set up a new subdomain also cnamed to mathpunk.net
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etymancer so you can actually see it
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mathpunk what's this A/CNAME/TXT/MX?
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etymancer say, test.mathpunk.net or something
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@erik_paulson RT @kevinmarks: Notes from tonights inaugural Homebrew Website Club at http://www.kevinmarks.com/hwc2013-11-20.html #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/403381593982517249)
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etymancer I will explain this
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etymancer later
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mathpunk to the same ip?
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mathpunk no port or nothin?
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etymancer yep
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etymancer no ports in dns
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mathpunk I've got to complain about this double-naming nonsense
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mathpunk i told it test.mathpunk.net
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mathpunk but it saves as test.mathpunk.net.mathpunk.net
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aaronpk did putting a "." at the end fix it?
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mathpunk anyway, that's edited
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aaronpk test.mathpunk.net.
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mathpunk dunno, I just edited and corrected it
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mathpunk oooh... will try next subd
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aaronpk oh then that just sounds like a bug
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etymancer ok
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etymancer point yer browser at test.mathpunk.net for a personalized message (tm)
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mathpunk OMG WOW SERVER NOT FOUND
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mathpunk it's what i always wanted
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etymancer hm
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etymancer it behaves appropriately for me
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mathpunk magic of internets
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mathpunk take some time?
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aaronpk ooh you have a CNAME to the IP address. make the CNAME record point to mathpunk.net instead
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mathpunk maybe it takes time for the Seattle, China bits to get to New Hampshire
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mathpunk ....
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mathpunk wat?
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bear a CNAME is an altername name for an existing A record
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aaronparecki.com edited /dns (+529) "add notes on DNS entry types" (view diff)
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mathpunk etymancer: so you mean.... the A record points to the IP, the CNAME test points to mathpunk.net instead of the digits?
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aaronpk mathpunk: http://indiewebcamp.com/dns
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bear A = Address entry
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aaronpk mathpunk: yes that is how it should work
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jp i need to learn about dns lol
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bear CNAME = Computer Name entry
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mathpunk oh, just like the www.mathpunk.net below
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mathpunk digit
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aaronpk feel free to add to the dns page :)
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mathpunk dig-it
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mathpunk Server not found
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mathpunk SERVER FOUND
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mathpunk yessssss
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bear CNAMES are used to allow different subdomain names to point to the same server (aka A record) entry
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mathpunk and the server knows it's serving different subdomains? the directory structure does?
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mathpunk it looks, from this console, like it's all pointing at the same plac
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mathpunk e
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bear that answer depends on what is receiving the socket connection
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aaronpk that part is handled by nginx
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mathpunk k
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aaronpk you can tell nginx to do different things based on what name was used to get there
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bear httpd's (aka nginx) know because the caller (the browser) sends a HOST header record
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etymancer sorry trying to avoid dinner failr
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mathpunk a POST or GET request includes a header. This header includes information that tells nginx what the browser is looking for.
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etymancer *fail
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mathpunk dinner > website
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mathpunk do not starve my wife b/c i was impressed by Case's realtimeweb talk!!
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etymancer well, if you insist
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mathpunk i do
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etymancer k
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etymancer back in a bit then
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etymancer also, setup so far is barest minimum to results
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etymancer refinement will come
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mathpunk as desired
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aaronpk mathpunk: so if you have access to that server you should be able to change "yo" into something that has your name on it
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jp do you guys think its important to have your own virtual server with your web server stuff on it or is it ok to buy just web hosting?
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aaronpk jp: whatever works fofr you
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mathpunk I have now made a computer being dreamed of by a computer I have never seen send the word "butts" across the country
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jp i'd like the flexibility of having my own virtual server but i dont feel comfortable using linux
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mathpunk I am as unto a god
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etymancer yep, it's in the /home/youknowwho/mathpunk.net
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aaronpk mathpunk: and now you just made the word "butts" fly across the world and land in a small screen in dubai
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mathpunk :')
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mathpunk afk, have 2 weep w/happiness
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mathpunk update: the word "butts" apparently needs RESPONSIVE DESIGN 4 MOBILE
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mathpunk which seems a bit much
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mathpunk but idk
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aaronpk I dunno, your butt is already pretty responsive
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mathpunk aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 302 karma
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mathpunk btw etymancer suggested I change the page to something with my name on it
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mathpunk see, it's subtle
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mathpunk these butts have my name on them OH HI
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etymancer girl, are you these butts, 'cause wait
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mathpunk Girl, are you these butts, because you are a conspicuous hill or mountain, especially one that attracts attention by its isolation, or serves as a land mark
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etymancer so yeah, the mobile thing is probably just something goofy
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mathpunk refinement
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etymancer time
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mathpunk i was just trying to say "butts" to L
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etymancer oh wait, no. send her the www.test.mathpunk.net link
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etymancer that works mobileyly
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mathpunk Gentlemen, we have butts
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mathpunk Confirmed, we have butts
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etymancer btw that was aaronpk's suggestion.
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etymancer we are at t+butts
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mathpunk comes close to spraying beer on the lab equipment
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etymancer heh
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etymancer so, whew. all disasters averted
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etymancer now to clean the kitchen. later to clean the virt
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mathpunk roger that
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etymancer in between to clean the brain with sleep
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mathpunk ok
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dietrich bret: yeah next time let me know in advance, and if the space is open i'd gladly be the host for any pdx'ers that want to come
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etymancer mathpunk: pm me later / demain for more
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mathpunk etymancer: word. it's a site!
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mathpunk thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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etymancer ship it.
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etymancer my pleasure :)
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etymancer also aaronpk: thanks for the help
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aaronpk hooray!
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mathpunk hooooooookay. next: rel=me
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aaronpk i have to go in a minute, presentation's about to start
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mathpunk if yours, "break a leg", else "enjoy!"
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aaronpk thx. yep mine, only 2 left today! *whew*
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mathpunk INDIEAUTH'd!!!!
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bret dietrich: way cool! I'll/someone will ping you once we work out the details
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snarfed congrats mathpunk! (and etymancer!)
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bret Did anyone take a group photo at IWC:H or HWC#1?
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aaronpk mathpunk: YAY cool!
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snarfed bret: we took a couple at HWC #1 tonight. i think tantek and/or kevinmarks have them
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tantek Bret snarfed, just posted to IG.
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snarfed thanks!
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@SwissGator Whose #data is it anyway? http://www.healthcareitnews.com/blog/whos-data-it-anyway via @HITNewsTweet EXACTLY why we created @SwissHealthBank #patientengagement #ownyourdata (twitter.com/_/status/403425312157220864)
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@benwerd Looking forward to the #indieweb tackling weird, ephemeral selfies. Related: I just sent my first Snapchat, badly. (twitter.com/_/status/403427481085952000)
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@kevinmarks @benwerd it's a special case of the private webmention. (twitter.com/_/status/403428121736519680)
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Jihaisse Hello
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igalic This is probably not news here, but I only now stumbled over https://unhosted.org/
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Jihaisse pfefferle: are you there ?
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@SwissHealthBank MT @SwissGator: Whose #data is it anyway? http://www.healthcareitnews.com/blog/whos-data-it-anyway via @HITNewsTweet EXACTLY why we created @SwissHealthBank #ownyourdata (twitter.com/_/status/403505137085607936)
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Jihaisse Just released a child theme for #SemPress https://github.com/jihaisse/SemPress-Lite/ thanks to pfefferle
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@TheSPeriment @sevasev bgmn? Proses akuisisi #indieweb bisa ditindaklanjuti? :) (twitter.com/_/status/403532542252306432)
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@jihaisse @xtof_fr salut, t'en es où avec indieweb ? (twitter.com/_/status/403554961717329921)
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Jihaisse god, works even without hashtags
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@xtof_fr @jihaisse Toujours motivé #indieweb - Bravo pour tes travaux #WP. En cours, étude #jekyll + #github pour les noobs... http://christopheducamp.com/w/2013-326 (twitter.com/_/status/403559270471327744)
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snarfed progress report: webmentions from facebook are streaming into my inbox as we speak
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snarfed http://snarfed.org/facebook_webmentions.png
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snarfed woot!
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Loqi yay!
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snarfed now to put a barely adequate UX on it
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_6a68 whoa! nice
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barnabywalters nice work!
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snarfed thanks!
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tantek snarfed awesome!!!
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mathpunk Previously, on mathpunk.net....
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mathpunk I now have an nginx running on a vps I "own" (rent), and it serves static web pages.
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mathpunk Ergo, I have successfully indieauth'd, and then jumped up and down with the joy.
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mathpunk I'm not sure what my next indieweb project ought to be, so I'm just going to start curling example web pages I like into a folder on my server for learning/forking.
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mathpunk I read a little about the h microformat and I'm not entirely sure I get it, but my current Forever Project is trying to get the web to be more like stacks of shufflable index cards
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mathpunk and I think that's probably relevant-- notes vs posts vs articles etc.
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barnabywalters mathpunk: Congrats on getting login working!
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tantek mathpunk - this is a good place to start: http://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started
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barnabywalters You should add some contact information to your homepage, marked up with h-card
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barnabywalters Http://microformats.org/wiki/h-card
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mathpunk hm, ok
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mathpunk barnabywalters: Thanks! Couldn't done it w/o the channel
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barnabywalters You can test your markup with this tool: http://indiewebify.me/validate-h-card/?url=Http%3A%2F%2Fwaterpigs.co.uk
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barnabywalters Just getting a name, URL and photo/logo covers most usage (e.g. Putting a name+face next to comments, posts and such things)
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mathpunk I don't understand. It looks like, from the minimal example, that "h-card" is a css class. But what uses the class?
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tantek barnabywalters that's a good point. We should point that out on the why page
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tantek or a why section
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tantek mathpunk - there's no such thing as a "css class" http://tantek.com/2012/353/b1/why-html-classes-css-class-selectors
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barnabywalters mathpunk: Yep, h-card is a microformats 2 root class name
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barnabywalters Classnames can be used to add extra meaning to HTML elements
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barnabywalters Microformats are open vocabularies of classnames for common things like contact info and posts
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mathpunk a selector then? I mean the thing that says <HTMLTAG class="foo">
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barnabywalters mathpunk: A selector is also a CSS thing
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tantek mathpunk see ^^^
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tantek it explains that too
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barnabywalters Which *selects* one or more html elements
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bear "class" is nothing but additional data for an html tag
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bear css uses that data for it's job, but it's not css that defines what goes in a class
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bear (oh poo, others answered already)
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tantek bear - it's ok, it comes up a lot. hence why I finally sat down and wrote http://tantek.com/2012/353/b1/why-html-classes-css-class-selectors
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bear bookmarks
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mathpunk I've just heard the phrase "css selector" a lot, and one seems to select by tag type, class, or id.
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mathpunk sorry
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bear no need to apologize
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bear asking questions like that means that someone later reading the log will learn from your question
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bear and allows others to get a feel if the documentation is working
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mathpunk what I mean though, is.... just adding the h-card class to a tag doesn't do anything in and of itself, right?
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barnabywalters bear: In practise no one actually reads the logs :) hence why we solidify things onto the wiki
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bear oh, then i'm definitely an odd case - I read more logs than wikis
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barnabywalters mathpunk: There are open source parsers for various languages which, given HTML with microformats classnames, give you nice data structures to play with
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barnabywalters Microformats make HTML as easy to consume as JSON APIs
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barnabywalters Without the need to publish everything twice
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barnabywalters bear: Each to their own :)
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bear any one class item is not important, but taken together when used within the html structure allows logical chunks of metadata to be parsed
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bear <div class="h-card"> signals to a microformat parser that this div scope will hold nifty info that it should consider as an h-card
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mathpunk when you're talking about these parsers, then, I speculate you're talking about sites in the indieweb ecosystem, that aren't necessarily my own?
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barnabywalters Effectively, class=h-card tells the parser "this element represents a person/contactable thing"
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mathpunk i.e., the "rel=me" trick
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bear visit IndieWebify.me and look at some of the validation sections
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bear that is an example of microformat usage and parsing
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bear and also a handy way to double check your new site for progress
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jp tantek: you were mentioned in this book im reading which led me to this irc - which books do you recommend reading for html5/css/js and new web technologies
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barnabywalters jp: welcome to #indiewebcamp!
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Loqi benwerd: tantek left you a message 2 days ago: since you most recently implemented and iterated on permashortlinks/permashortcitations, interested in your thoughts on moving them forward in a more unified fashion in this way: https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-11-19#t1384879473
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Loqi benwerd: tantek left you a message on 11/19 at 3:33pm: hey benwerd - noticed that photo posts don't/didn't provide a permashortlink/permashortcitation - was that by design or accident? https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/399304939257618432
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benwerd hee
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jp thanks
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jp reading my way through introducing html5 second edition by bruce lawson and remy sharp
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /h-card (+656) "added some why information + example" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /h-card (+15) "forgot classname (derp)" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /h-card (+245) "/* See Also */ added h-card validators" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Getting_Started (+103) "separate Setup contact info and profile links to an explicit step for referencing" (view diff)
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barnabywalters jp: if you haven’t already come across it, I can recommend the WHATWG HTML living spec as a readable, authoritative reference for HTML5: http://developers.whatwg.org/
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jp thanks
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tantek barnabywalters I separated this out so hopefully it is easier to use/reference when questions like mathpunk's come up: http://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started#Contact_info_and_profile_links
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jp heard about whatwg from this book havent had a chance to check out the spec though - but bookmarked it
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tantek barnabywalters - the WHATWG spec is a bit tl;dr
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tantek sorry to say - most specs are
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tantek hello and welcome jp!
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jp thanks
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tantek There are a lot of HTML+CSS+JS book/references now
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jp im especially interested in new web technologies
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barnabywalters tantek: indeed, it’s not bedtime reading, but *much* nicer than the UA implementor-oriented specs for reference — easy to search too
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tantek even I wrote one (with video too) that covers the basics: http://tantek.com/html5now
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jp and html5 for apps and the like
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tantek jp - best thing to do is just get started with HTML5 using your own website
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snarfed tantek: glad to see more work on that getting started page, thanks!
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tantek snarfed - it needs a lot more work ;)
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snarfed works in progress!
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tantek jp - do you have your personal domain?
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jp not yet i think i might buy one now
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snarfed definitely! that's by far the biggest first step
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jp i have a vps
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tantek jp - I'd suggest reading http://indiewebcamp.com/why
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tantek see which of those resonate with you
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barnabywalters tantek: updates to getting started look good, I think the rest of the document needs some reprioritisation
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jp if i host my website with a vps is it possible to still get mail accounts?
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barnabywalters jp: setting up your own mail server is pretty tricky, but you can host your mail elsewhere and still point your domain to your VPS
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jp for example gmail?
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barnabywalters that’s what I do on waterpigs.co.uk — HTTP requests go to my web server, but I get someone else to host my mail
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barnabywalters not used gmail personally, aaronpk might be able to help (uses google apps?)
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jp i think google apps is discontinued :/
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barnabywalters making bagels, bbiab
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bear I use mailroute to be honest and then run a simple postfix server to receive mailroute's stream
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bear layered on top of that is dovecot for imap,pop3 support
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snarfed google apps definitely isn't discontinued!
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tantek barnabywalters - perhaps you could capture that info about mail server setup vs. pointing mail here? http://indiewebcamp.com/email
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tantek similarly bear, how to use mailroute/postfix would be a good add to that page
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tantek even just a sentence or two about what you're doing
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bear i'll bring the page up and edit it while waiting for servers to update and such (i.e. my idle time during the day)
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tantek.com edited /email (+110) "/* Security Issues */ Flickr does the secret email address thing" (view diff)
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KevinMarks Notes from last night: http://www.kevinmarks.com/hwc2013-11-20.html
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KevinMarks thoughts on better markup for these notes welcomed - should I add twitter accounts to the hCards?
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barnabywalters KevinMarks: how about some h-entry?
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KevinMarks a h-entry for the whole post makes sense, yes.
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KevinMarks as each line is also a tweet, I could link through, though that is a bit cumbersome
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barnabywalters why not a h-entry per item?
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jp got my domain
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jp has no whois protection though :\ thats long
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barnabywalters jp: great! what is it?
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Loqi it is probable
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jp apparently .so domains do not support whois protection
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jp lol
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jp its http://julian.so
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /email (+285) "/* How To Accept Inbound Email */ stubbed FAQ about domains, mail + web server" (view diff)
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barnabywalters KevinMarks: or maybe that livenote document is a h-entry which is also an h-feed
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barnabywalters would that even make sense?
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barnabywalters from a UI perspective, it is a series of short notes — that’s how it was authored and syndicated
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barnabywalters and each item is replyable/mentionable/quotable and so probably deserves a permalink to itself
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barnabywalters otherwise the tweet permalinks are more useful than the canonical permalinks ;)
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barnabywalters s/canonical permalinks/canonical permalink
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jp im gonna set up some mails for my domain now ill have to check out google apps
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Loqi barnabywalters meant to say: otherwise the tweet permalinks are more useful than the canonical permalink ;)
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KevinMarks yes, that's why this is a bit odd. I should probably post each note as it happens, but that woudl mean using a doffernt process
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KevinMarks as I publish the site via git+ heroku at the moment
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KevinMarks :D
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mathpunk i'm trying to make my h-card and as usual i'm having trouble being the least bit professional
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KevinMarks I though h-entry inside h-entry was problematic?
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barnabywalters mathpunk: what are you having trouble with?
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mathpunk barnabywalters: not trolling and graffiti'ing my own web presence :) mental problems this time, not technical
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barnabywalters KevinMarks: it’s problematic when it’s unintentional, but .h-entry.h-feed > .h-entry might actually make sense
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barnabywalters if it represents a feed which is in itself a post
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barnabywalters like a storify document
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mathpunk BUG REPORT: user still not a grown-up
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barnabywalters mathpunk: fortunately there are helpful people here. can you paste the code you’ve written in somewhere
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barnabywalters actually, how about an etherpad/other collaborative writing thing?
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barnabywalters KevinMarks: but I’d still try to give each item it’s own, non hash-fragment permalink
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KevinMarks writing bios is such a pain
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KevinMarks always worth trading that job wiht someone else
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etymancer kind of like dishes
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etymancer I'd much rather do someone else's dishes than mine.
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mathpunk alright, i've selected a subset of h-card tags i'm willing to fill up, I'll stick some text on an etherpad. (etherpad's still a thing? cool.)
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KevinMarks barnaby - the markup is generated inline on www.noterlive.com, then copy pasted at the moment;
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KevinMarks I'd need to use something more databasy to make a permalink per note
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barnabywalters databasey? not necessarily, unless you have some aversion to static sites :)
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barnabywalters mathpunk: is mathpunk.net still supposed to point to your wordpress site or is my cache not cleared properly?
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jp oh theres no more free google apps
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mathpunk no, we pointed it away
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jp :(
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mathpunk i archived it and i'll figure out what to do with the content later
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jp anyone using free alternatives for webmail?
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jp ^on their own domains
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mathpunk also i can't believe that people publish their email addresses on their sites-- it seems like that would encourage people to email you
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aaronpk jp: I used to use roundcube, long ago
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jp would i install that on my server?
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aaronpk yeah
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jp okay haha newbie with vps stuff but ill give it a go
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aaronpk not saying I recommend it. I did say I *used* to use it :)
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Loqi nice
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barnabywalters mathpunk: cache cleared — that h-card is looking good to me!
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barnabywalters you probably want just the “Tom Henderson” to be the p-name
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mathpunk there's this given-name/surname thing...
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barnabywalters http://indiewebify.waterpigs.co.uk/validate-h-card/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mathpunk.net%2F
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mathpunk seems a bit fine-grained~
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barnabywalters yeah, I wouldn’t worry too much about the given name/family name unless you *really* want to publish it
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barnabywalters name, photo and url are the mainstay
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barnabywalters that’s what consuming apps actually use
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jp aaronpk: fair enough, think ill use outlook.com until i get a better grasp of installing stuff on a vps
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KevinMarks well, I'd need a way to post the notes line by line like I do with the tweets, which would need a noting API
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mathpunk Something I've just realized-- I prefer how "Thomas" looks in print even though everyone calls me "Tom"
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mathpunk I'm going with the eye-rhyme
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bear.im edited /email (+1995) "/* How To Accept Inbound Email */" (view diff)
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mathpunk http://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/who_the_eff_is_tom_henderson Here's the info but I'm not sure what the tags wrapping these attributes oughta be.
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mathpunk I suspect I'm confusing the machine-reading with the person-reading
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jp wish my name had a cool domain hack
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jp juli.an
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mathpunk there are new top-levels with a weird smattering of nouns
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mathpunk so maybe you can go for JULI.DIAMONDS
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jp julian.ninja
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mathpunk but you have to become a mobster
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barnabywalters mathpunk: don’t worry too much about the machine readable parts — just publish the bits of contact information you want in the what which makes sense, then scatter the mf2 classnames in afterwards
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bear mathpunk - I modified your name line to show an example
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barnabywalters s/in the what which/in whatever way
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Loqi barnabywalters meant to say: mathpunk: don’t worry too much about the machine readable parts — just publish the bits of contact information you want in whatever way makes sense, then scatter the mf2 classnames in afterwards
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mathpunk So style it like it's for a person, and then the attributes are how to let a parser know
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bear always style it for human readers
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bear but tag it for the parsers
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barnabywalters mathpunk: yes! that is the human-first approach microformats take :)
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barnabywalters because if you start with what you think will be interesting for a machine, it’ll be structured weirdly for real people, or just make no sense
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mathpunk ohwow... the nested span made no sense, and then I realized it would let a machine greet me by first name while knowing my full name
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mathpunk is enlightened
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barnabywalters om
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barnabywalters goes back to bagel making
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bear the <span> tag is a great way to split up the smaller bits but still keep the presentation as a whole item
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etymancer mathpunk: ftfy
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mathpunk thx
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mathpunk you are "a great help"
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etymancer I "try"
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etymancer goes to google h-card
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barnabywalters etymancer: http://microformats.org/wiki/h-card
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etymancer yep. that's what google said too ;)
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etymancer I like this microformat idea.
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snarfed meanwhile: tantek forks kevinmarks's personal site, blows snarfed's mind
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snarfed https://github.com/tantek/kevin-marks.com
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snarfed "but what does it *mean*?!?!?
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snarfed :P
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mathpunk do people actually use mailto links? i use them just to remind myself that i have no intention of configuring an email client
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barnabywalters I find them pretty handy. and they allow you to log to indieauth using persona, which is pretty handy
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KevinMarks well, he wanted to fix the typos in my notes from last night, and because I have a clunky publishing process, it's all in git
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snarfed :P oh it's totally fine. i was just having fun with the meta/philosophical part. probably a sign of too much free time.
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bear that's how I log into indiewebcamp - using persona via mailto sniffing
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mathpunk what would a parser do if I have two p-regions? I was thinking of putting both the state (Oregon) and the bioregion (Cascadia)
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jp is it safe to delete all the default zone files?
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jp if my domain doesnt currently link anywhere
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mathpunk I'm going to find out by doing. Maybe my site will make Cascadia real--
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jp what do you guys recommend me installing on my vps if i wanna host my domain there?
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barnabywalters mathpunk: I’m not aware of any consumers which actually *use* region data, but the default approach is to use the first value if only one is expected
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bear jp, I would recommend using a service like FreeDNS if your providor doesn't give DNS support
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bear running your own BIND daemon gets old really fast IMO (and i'm an ops guy in my dayjob)
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jp i have a vps at digital ocean and i was thinking of using that
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bear and I would start with nginx so you can host your static html5 site - then figure out as you find an itch what to install next
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bear DNS should be provided by the folks you registered the domain name at
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bear for me it's Hover - they have DNS support that is pretty decent
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jp yeah i've got dns support at Gandi thats fine
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jp just nowhere to point it to yet
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bear oh, now I see why you said zone files - Gandi.net
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bear yea, for the start define @ and maybe a www CNAME to point to @
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jp do i point it to my vps' IP?
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bear yes
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jp (sorry im oblivious to dns)
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bear no worries, everyone is a newb at something every day
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bear DNS is the internet's phone book - it maps bear.im to the address of the server that handles it's services
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tantek snarfed, funny how github creates forks in your profile even when you just edit one file from another project.
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jp cool domain!
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snarfed oh, using their web editor?
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tantek snarfed, yes. that's literally all I did.
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snarfed yeah. makes sense though. it'd be nice if they cleaned up the fork afterward, but meh
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tantek ideally I'd have most pages on my site editable by close/trusted friends.
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tantek per http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki-page
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snarfed yup! sounds like you :P
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tantek though I have to figure out where the boundary should be between generated pages (e.g. permalinks pages from storage) and standalone editable pages
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snarfed i'm perusing bear's web site now. like it!
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tantek I *think* the boundary is pages that primarily have a date-time context vs. pages that primarily have a named/topic context.
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bear hides
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snarfed bear, one minor nit: the github link on https://bear.im/code/parsedatetime/ in the news section is broken
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tantek so pages in /YYYY/ are the former, and *everything* else is the latter
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bear oh, yes, I haven't indie-webified my code section
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bear (this is a hand migration from wordpress)
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snarfed oh it's just broken, not lacking indieweb-ness
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snarfed tantek: yeah, sounds reasonable
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tantek all that leaves is what to do about templates that the datetime-based pages use for generating home page, archive pages, permalink pages (maybe even tag pages)
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tantek I don't have a URL design for template pages but perhaps I should - how bad would it be if people could see your page templates for generated pages?
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barnabywalters tantek: er, good maybe?
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tantek barnabywalters - that's what I'm thinking
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barnabywalters it’s just view-source on a different rung of the abstraction layer
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tantek yes
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tantek btw at least the template for my home page is visible already: http://tantek.com/index.html
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barnabywalters the latest version of taproot is getting publicly viewable posting UI pages
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barnabywalters tantek: oh that’s cool, didn’t know that
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tantek barnabywalters - yeah it is (was) not linked from anywhere
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jp tantek: are you ex-twitter?
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tantek jp - never worked at Twitter. Joined in the first year, gave a lot of in-person feedback back when they were <20 people, and blogged about it early on.
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tantek hope he escaped reference in the Hatching Twitter book.
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jp havent read it yet haha
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tantek barnabywalters - so far I only have two things in that "template" that get filled in:
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tantek <div class="section stream">&#xA0;</div> <!-- where the home page composite stream goes -->
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tantek <div class="section recent-articles"></div> <!-- what I coded at IndieWebCampHollywood -->
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tantek my templates are valid markup in and of themselves (never understood why CMS templates had to use random other languages / escape codes)
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tantek is wondering if we do publish our templates publicly, would it make sense to come up with microformat conventions for the pieces of a template that are meant to be "filled in" by a publishing engine that reads the template as well as a datastore of some sort.
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barnabywalters sort of like the TAL approach
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barnabywalters tantek: that sounds a little like ONE TEMPLATE ENGINE TO RULE THEM ALL
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tantek right now I'm using class names "stream" and "recent-articles" on my home page as "fill in this element" template hooks.
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tantek barnabywalters - hence why I stuck with simple class names rather than anything microformatty.
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tantek would rather avoid designing a big template engine.
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barnabywalters I still use php files so no HTML parsing is required just to display content
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tantek would sharing templates across systems be useful?
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tantek portable templates?
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barnabywalters probably not in macro, maybe for very small things
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tantek one possible advantage - front end devs/designers could focus on making nice templates, and then swap out backend systems written by others.
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tantek barnabywalters - I'm trying to use PHP files purely as code execution files (not the original intent of PHP)
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barnabywalters you could just use HTML files with microformats and dummy/empty content in as the templating language — if the data to go in is microformats2 structured then you don’t need another vocabulary
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barnabywalters tantek: I mostly do the same, and keep template files well separated from code files
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barnabywalters PSR-0 requires files to either produce side effects or define symbols (e.g. functions, classes, constants) but never both, which makes a lot of sense
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tantek barnabywalters, re: don't need another vocabulary - except in *every* instance I have of "filling something in" - it's had a special meaning beyond existing vocabulary
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tantek e.g. "stream" - yes it is a "feed" but it's a very specific type of feed - that for the *home page* (and yes I should have probably named it more specific)
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tantek same thing with "recent-articles" - that's a box of just the article names linked to their permalinks
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tantek and just a few of them - not sure how to capture that semantic of "how many recent articles"
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tantek (right now it's a hardcoded constant in the code - though perhaps that number, 3, should come from the template? suggestions welcome)
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tantek e.g. instead of "stream" what's a good way to represent "recent updates for the home page including all post types" or "… all post types except… fitness raw data" (or something) ?
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barnabywalters tantek: hm, I’d say that kind of logic (figuring out special meaning) is the job of the code calling the template
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barnabywalters rather than having to give the template the smarts to figure out exactly what sort of thing it’s displaying
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tantek barnabywalters - except the template is typically *designed* with specific presentational intent, thus it should convey that information to the code filling in the template.
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barnabywalters code calling the template knows what should go in the template based on the URL, the template should know where to put it
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KevinMarks why &#xA0
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KevinMarks tantek?
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tantek like how should the code filling in the template know or care about 3 recent articles or 4? shouldn't the template determine that?
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tantek KevinMarks - I think to work around a bug in an older version of my code. I could probably take that out.
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tantek maybe I need to just study existing template (markup) systems like Blogger, Tumblr, WordPress (any other suggestions) to figure out what information the templates are choosing to convey to the engines underneath.
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tantek I hoped someone here with template design experience would have opinions to offer.
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barnabywalters it would be kinda cool to have declarative templates able to do queries of things
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barnabywalters e.g. the three latest articles
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tantek right. but simple queries. I don't want to end up down the XPath/XQuery/SPARQL rabbithole.
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barnabywalters typically they don’t at the moment because reusability, but in this case it might be better to put the reusability on the layer above
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tantek simple queries based on real world template needs?
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barnabywalters because then you can just put data-stream="articles" data-max="3" in *any* template and get useful stuff
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barnabywalters data-tagged="etc"
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tantek wouldn't it be nice if you could switch from Tumblr to WordPress or vice-versa but keep your templates that you'd put work into designing?
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tantek sure - but the data-* attributes are supposed to be system-specific - not for anything cross-system or portable.
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KevinMarks a lot of the templating languages assume a JSON blob being passed to them
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tantek KevinMarks - because designers love authoring JSON blobs in templates?
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barnabywalters hm, that’s not my understanding of the scope of data-* attributes
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tantek barnabywalters - yeah - that's pretty clear about them in the spec
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barnabywalters but my understanding is probably wrong
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tantek http://microformats.org/wiki/html5#data_attributes
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barnabywalters so I read http://developers.whatwg.org/content-models.html#embedding-custom-non-visible-data-with-the-data-*-attributes “These attributes are not intended for use by software that is independent of the site that uses the attributes.” and think that whatever site using the templates is using the attributes
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barnabywalters (welcome to tautology club)
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tantek barnabywalters - however, since you can install Taproot on any site, it is independent of any specific site.
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KevinMarks no, 'cos the templates refer to sub elements of structure
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barnabywalters tantek: but if falcon and taproot both supported these templates, and they *used* them, then they would be… *using* them
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barnabywalters what does it mean for a “site” to “use” the attribute?
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barnabywalters phrased another way… what *is* a valid use of data-* attributes?
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barnabywalters if using them isn’t a valid use
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tantek using them for site-specific use
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tantek like scripting libraries
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barnabywalters where “site” === domain
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tantek sorry, site-specific scripting libraries
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mathpunk etymancer, barnabywalters: check it-- mathpunk.net bio card. not good, but better than bad~
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tantek e.g. Twitter has scripting libraries
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barnabywalters or site === vendor
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tantek so they have hooks with data-twitter-* attribute just for their libraries
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mathpunk and it appears to h-card validate
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KevinMarks eg Jade is a pretty terse way to make HTML from a JSON structure
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tantek not intended for any other software or libraries
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etymancer mathpunk: woot!
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Loqi yay!
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barnabywalters mathpunk: looks good and parses well! nice work
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etymancer defintely > bad
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barnabywalters tantek: okay, that makes a little more sense to me now
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mathpunk etymancer: I have no clue where you-know-who is storing vim swap files... do you?
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barnabywalters it’s a pity — they’re an effective way of applying user-customisable key-value pairs to elements
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barnabywalters which classnames can’t do so easily
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etymancer mathpunk: sudo lsof -n|grep '\.sw'
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etymancer (typically they're in the same directory as the open file)
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barnabywalters and <data> elements would be a bit ugly for
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barnabywalters or, just custom attributes
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tantek barnabywalters - yeah - I think that's why people resort to JSON blobs for that
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barnabywalters tantek: not sure I understand — JSON blobs are data given by the calling code to the template, not data given by the template about what should be put in it
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barnabywalters unless someone somewhere is making HTML templates with JSON *inside*
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barnabywalters which would be messed up
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tantek barnabywalters <script id="blobnnn">JSON blob</script>
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barnabywalters WAT
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barnabywalters people do that?!
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tantek barnabywalters YES THEY ARE
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barnabywalters example?
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tantek in fact a lot of pages now send down data like that
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tantek um, Twitter, Facebook
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tantek view source on your public Facebook profile page
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tantek (just curl it)
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KevinMarks a JSON blob or a variable declaration?
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barnabywalters oh right — that’s actual data to fill the template with rather than data given by the template about what it does
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tantek KevinMarks - add syntactic sugar as needed.
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barnabywalters it’s still injected into the template by calling code
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tantek barnabywalters - splitting hairs
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KevinMarks you can't curl it without faking a useragent
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barnabywalters the calling code is just a js templating library
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tantek it's a template that's filled in by clientside JS rather than serverside
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barnabywalters but the equivalent in the original context (server side templates) would be storing all your notes in the template
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KevinMarks right, that's a common pattern too
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KevinMarks point is lots of templating libs have JSON traversal syntax
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barnabywalters okay, so the problem I was brainstorming solutions about was the template file itself giving the calling code information about what to fill it with, e.g. the number of posts to fetch
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barnabywalters it seems the discussion got a little side-tracked
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KevinMarks ah
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barnabywalters now off for a walk. bbiab
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KevinMarks yeah, most of them have iterator syntax, not sure you can easily do a 'just the first 3'
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tantek KevinMarks, e.g. my "recent articles" box
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tantek on my home page. the information about having *3* recent articles in particular - where should that go? I'm thinking that information should somehow be in the template, as I expect the designer of the template to determine that. Not the calling code.
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KevinMarks I suppose you could emit all the html and hide beyond 3 with css, but thats a bit odd
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tantek also potentially more expensive on the back end
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mathpunk waaaaaaaat-- I'm moving on to the "h-entry" project but... articles are also h-cards? (??)
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tantek "all the html" - you mean go get ALL my past articles?
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Loqi waaaaaaaat has -1 karma
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tantek and wasteful
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mathpunk loqi++
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tantek (of bandwidth - to send down that much in the home page)
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Loqi loqi has 209 karma
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tantek mathpunk, no articles are not h-cards. articles are h-entry which has a p-author which is an h-card
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KevinMarks right, pagination is always hard.
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tantek KevinMarks - but it's not paginated. it's just a simple sidebar box of 3 recent article names linked to their permalinks
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mathpunk tantek: Does all that h-card data have to go into the p-author? :/
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tantek mathpunk - what do you mean by "all that h-card data"?
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KevinMarks right, but you need a query somewhere to with a LIMIT on
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tantek KevinMarks - sure, and no reason to query for any more than the presentation needs
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mathpunk mmm... well, I thought the h-card was a sort of bio-slash-contact card... so I put in my name and pic and location and homepage and whatnot
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KevinMarks and thus you now need a 2-pass template process.
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tantek mathpunk - typically, a simple URL+photo+name is great for a p-author h-card
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mathpunk but I put that in a div for the end of the page.
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mathpunk I was thinking of it as a sort of "about the author" footer
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tantek KevinMarks - I don't understand why it is two pass.
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tantek mathpunk - you can do that too
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tantek typical practice is to have mini-h-cards for the p-author
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mathpunk but it gets duplicated in the posts? that seems weird
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mathpunk maybe it just seems weird because I'm handcoding this
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tantek or you can use rel=author to link from a mini name only h-card to your home page with a more expansive h-card
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tantek KevinMarks: 1) read template, extract information about what is needed, 2) query datastore, 3) fill in template with information to generate a page.
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tantek the only "pass" is in step 1.
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KevinMarks right, so 2 passes through the template
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tantek in step 3 you already know all the places to fill in so you're not doing a "pass"
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tantek that's only one "read" (ergo pass) of the template file
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KevinMarks well, something is
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KevinMarks maybe your templating engine is
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tantek it's just holding onto pointers from the DOM elements found in pass 1
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tantek and then it fills in those DOM elements
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tantek that's not a "pass" in that nothing is "passed" by/over
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KevinMarks you're always walking 2 things at once, the template and the data structure
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KevinMarks or walking one and querying the other i suppose
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tantek I guess I don't understand. I just pass/parse the template *once* into a DOMDocument. Then query it to find the nodes to fill in. Get the data. Fill them in. Then output the page.
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jp lol laptop runs out of charge so plug it in then turn back on
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jp and then it turns off again after realising it wasnt turned on in wall
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etymancer waaaaaaaat++
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etymancer (striving for balance)
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KevinMarks so 'get the data' is a batch query or a series of them?
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KevinMarks etymancer: another reason to use proper em dashes
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etymancer heh
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etymancer no doubt. silly ascii, overloading punctuation
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tantek Get the data is a batch query with parameters based on a) which template, and ideally also b) information from the template (like # of recent articles - which is currently hard coded in a constant in the code)
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KevinMarks if you're looking at pre-existing template implementations, http://garann.github.io/template-chooser/ is a good resource
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tantek now that's an interesting resource
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tantek.com created /template (+358) "stub" (view diff)
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tantek KevinMarks - it does seem like typical/popular templates do a lot more than we really need for indieweb sites.
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KevinMarks they do grow like weeds
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KevinMarks or like PHP
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tantek.com edited /template (+328) "examples" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /template (+148) "link to specific instructions / how to for Blogger and Tumblr templates" (view diff)
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tantek are there any template formats that let you edit "by example" and then fill in your "example data" with real data from the datastore?
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KevinMarks I think google had over 20 internal template libs when I was there
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tantek one challenge I have found with all templating languages/formats is that there is no way to quick-preview what a template might look like when you're editing it
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tantek you have to always try it with "real data"
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KevinMarks didn't someone just announce that?
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KevinMarks max Temkin and Adrina Holovaty : http://maxistentialist.tumblr.com/post/62838519332/the-small-cms-heres-something-i-need-its
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tantek KevinMarks - yeah I remember seeing that
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tantek so here's my question
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tantek instead of <p>{{Latest News}}</p>
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KevinMarks http://thesmallcms.com/
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tantek why not <div class="latest-news">…</div> ?
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tantek or heck, prefix them if necessary
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tantek <div class="tscms-latest-news">…</div>
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tantek why the addition of a new syntax {{…}} ?
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KevinMarks and this is why google had 20 template languages ;)
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tantek did any use class names?
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KevinMarks 'cos the {{...}} in mustache/handlebars lets you insert queries on the JSON blob
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KevinMarks traverse objects and lists
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tantek so that seems like work
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mathpunk My brain is full. I will attempt to understand what this means-- http://indiewebify.me/validate-h-entry/?url=mathpunk.net
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mathpunk tomorrow
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mathpunk thanks for yr help y'all
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tantek mathpunk - congrats on your progress!
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KevinMarks in response to your earlier editing complain, a lot of these libs can do stuff like this: http://olado.github.io/doT/
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tantek KevinMarks (or anyone) - any suggestions for semantic HTML for marking up a filename?
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tantek is using <samp> for now
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tantek since a filename is not really <code>
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KevinMarks all these things end up being work
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KevinMarks the question is are you writing in a suitable DSL or having to do it some annoying way
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KevinMarks at one end you have regexes, at the other you have big nested datastructures you traverse for the bits you want
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tantek KevinMarks why do I need a DSL rather than "just" using HTML+classes for the template hooks themselves?
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tantek.com created /newmonth (+83) "stub" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /template (+1060) "Indieweb thoughts, use cases, Falcon" (view diff)
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KevinMarks I suspect all these templating languages started that way
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KevinMarks the question is which ones turn into YAML and which ones stop at JSON, to use a metaphor
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tantek KevinMarks - yeah I guess I'm naively confused about why they end up descending into so much complexity (and DSL-ness).
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tantek So I'm going to gather use-cases I've encountered and just try to use simple HTML+classes for myself, and document as such.
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KevinMarks how long did you spend on CSS3 ;)
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/template#Use_Cases
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tantek Kevinmarks - "did"? that sounds like past tense. Plenty of CSS3 modules still in progress. ;)
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barnabywalters tantek: pure-HTML prior art, just in case you aren’t already aware of it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_Attribute_Language and http://tally.jit.su/
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tantek (a lot of that, on CSS3, is spending non-trivial time sweating lots of little details)
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tantek barnabywalters - really appreciate the prior art - was not aware
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barnabywalters s/pure-HTML/pure-HTML templates
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Loqi barnabywalters meant to say: tantek: pure-HTML templates prior art, just in case you aren’t already aware of it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_Attribute_Language and http://tally.jit.su/
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tantek heh - more like XSLT
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tantek boy all this stuff seems overkill
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tantek would love to see *any* of them document, hey this feature is here because of the following use cases.
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barnabywalters so neither of those broadcast their capabilities to the calling code though
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tantek barnabywalters - what kinds of template use-cases does Taproot have and how does it solve them?
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barnabywalters tantek: you could probably ask aral about the design decisions behind tally
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tantek feel free to braindump a brief summary about Taproot and templates here: http://indiewebcamp.com/template#Use_Cases
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barnabywalters tantek: at the moment, dumb ones. I have some data in an array and I want to make it into HTML quickly
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tantek it's ok, I'm pretty sure Falcon's use of templates is even dumber ;)
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barnabywalters so I use about 10 lines of code to do so
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tantek but I figured I'd start the documentation somewhere
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KevinMarks I bet noterlive is the dumbest
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tantek huh, so far Aral's Tally is the least complicated.
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barnabywalters yeah, TAL is from Zope, which AFAICT was big and complicated, with a strong focus on XML
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tantek.com edited /template (+302) "add HTML based template formats section with one example of Tally" (view diff)
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tantek barnabywalters - yeah, I'm ignoring anything XML based figuring XSLT has that covered.
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barnabywalters this is my templating function: https://gist.github.com/barnabywalters/7589497
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tantek whoa
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barnabywalters with anonymous functions and everything
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tantek hey at least you *have* a function
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tantek I don't even have that. I have pieces of my code that look for specific template constructs.
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tantek.com edited /template (+101) "/* HTML based template formats */ {} e.g." (view diff)
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bret jekyll sites are nearly 100% liquid templates
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KevinMarks see https://github.com/kevinmarks/noterlive/blob/master/web/index.html for the postit() and getSpeakerHTML functions
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barnabywalters KevinMarks: HTML concatenation ftw
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tantek bret - not sure what you mean by "liquid templates"
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tantek concatenation++
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Loqi concatenation has 1 karma
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bret tantek http://liquidmarkup.org/
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KevinMarks yes, you can inject script into the page you're using, yay
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bret its just a tempting language
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bret i hate it
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barnabywalters how come all these templating languages look almost exactly the same, yet they’re all completely incompatible
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bret barnabywalters++
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Loqi barnabywalters has 20 karma
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tantek seriously
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tantek {% %} vs. {{ }}
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tantek ???
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barnabywalters they only differ in what subset of functionality they offer
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barnabywalters so someone could make a meta template library which could render data to all of them
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KevinMarks heh
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barnabywalters oh, and speed I suppose, which matters esp. for client-side templating
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KevinMarks hello wikisyntaxes
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bret http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaghetti_code
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barnabywalters what’s the name for when it’s socially acceptable to reinvent the wheel in some minuscule with a shiny site and a fancy name?
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barnabywalters that is where we are with templating languages
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barnabywalters s/miniscule/miniscule way
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KevinMarks these templating languages eventually converge on PHP
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barnabywalters KevinMarks: LOL
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KevinMarks liquid is pretty close
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barnabywalters “first they grew cURL bindings… by then it was too late”
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bret Here is an interesting way to do templating… never tried myself but I like the idea http://camendesign.com/dom_templating
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KevinMarks I suppose http://jade-lang.com/ is converging on python instead
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barnabywalters bret: ooh, so someone *has* made a classname (or at least CSS-selector) based HTML templating language
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barnabywalters s/language/library
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Loqi barnabywalters meant to say: bret: ooh, so someone *has* made a classname (or at least CSS-selector) based HTML templating library
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+685) "/* Working On */ archives, after other things in the list, link to templates as a reminder to iterate on that too." (view diff)
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barnabywalters tantek: ^^^^ nice prior art, especially the code API
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tantek.com edited /template (+79) "/* HTML based template formats */ add Templating With DOM" (view diff)
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KevinMarks the JS based ones are DSLs that compile to functions like my fugly ones
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tantek.com edited /template (+158) "/* HTML based template formats */ add liquid {% %} example" (view diff)
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tantek This: "Special syntaxes invent another language to intermix with HTML and thus add programatic concepts to a declartive syntax—which is not clean separation no matter what you name it. "
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tantek and this! "If you are trying to replace HTML or CSS with JavaScript, you are doing it wrong and have just signed a maintenance contract from hell, with yourself, for yours and your data’s life. "
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bret XD also note in the view source… no class names! He is like an html5 monk
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KevinMarks that's a well-expressed version of Tantek's thesis
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KevinMarks I suspect the use cases for a lot of these are "I have a big JSON blog from an arbitrary API, and I want to make something pretty"
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tantek Kevinmarks - so they're working backwards then, from storage to UI?
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KevinMarks or they're client-side people who don't get to change the API
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tantek as opposed to, I've designed this awesome UI, now I need to specify how the variable content pieces of it can be retrieved from some datastore
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tantek hmm - I can't understand from this how looping works: http://camendesign.com/dom_templating
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tantek where the simple markup example of an element that is repeated?
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tantek and the count of how many times?
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KevinMarks http://camendesign.com/dom_templating#api-repeat
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tantek KevinMarks - * simple markup example*
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barnabywalters so I think you’d have one <div class="list-item">
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tantek and * count of how many times*
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barnabywalters and then that code clones it for each item in $data
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barnabywalters so in this example the count is still determined by the data and not the template
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tantek designers like to determine counts from the front end
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barnabywalters but as they’re both loaded at the same time it would be trivial to slice $data by some attribute in the template
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tantek e.g. most recent 3 articles ;)
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tantek sure - just wondering if that system has such a mechanism
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tantek or if it has to be added
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barnabywalters agreed, I think having the template broadcast it’s capabilities/constraints is a great idea
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KevinMarks that description sounds very like my noterlive munging
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tantek it does
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KevinMarks I suppose I'm thinking single pass because of that, as the process is interactive
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tantek.com edited /template (+157) "/* HTML based template formats */ capture questions/issues re: Templating With DOM" (view diff)
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KevinMarks I never end up closing the last blockquote as I don't have a button for that.
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tantek well "Templating With DOM" is the closest prior art to what I'm looking for so I'll probably use ideas/concepts from there
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KevinMarks you could use the number of children in the source to decide how many times to iterate
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tantek but I agree strongly with this goal: "… the HTML file itself can be designed independently of the software, and that whoever does the HTML doesn’t have to know PHP"
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KevinMarks with 1 meaning 'as many as you have'
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tantek KevinMarks - yeah that's an interesting idea
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bret he also does a markdown fork http://camendesign.com/code/remarkable
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barnabywalters that has the advantage of the template looking as close to the intended output as possible
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tantek and that way you could even fill in the children with sample output just to see what the design looked like while editing the template
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KevinMarks 'cos otherwise why would you specify a 1 element list?
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barnabywalters which, as a designer, is a good thing to have
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tantek heh barnabywalters :)
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tantek Kevinmarks - good reasoning.
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barnabywalters I think some of Aral’s examples do this
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barnabywalters the dummy items have a data-tally-dummy attribute or something
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tantek KevinMarks - please add those thoughts to: http://indiewebcamp.com/template#IndieWeb_Thoughts
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barnabywalters e.g. http://tally.jit.su/posts.html
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tantek Kevinmarks - I like the idea of using elements to represent explicit counts as it's more designer-literal / preview friendly
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barnabywalters this also completely avoids the need to create the “helpers” every templating language accumulates
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barnabywalters they just become functions which you call in code, where they belong
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barnabywalters and where they are more reusable, instead of being wrapped in framework padding
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KevinMarks does that presume you always use <ol> or <li> for repeating elements?
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KevinMarks or is the knowledge of what will repeat be encoded in the code?
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tantek or <ul>
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KevinMarks er I meant <ul>
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tantek I think yes, there is an implication of (re)using HTML semantics for template semantics.
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KevinMarks now we're talking XOXO
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KevinMarks :D
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tommorris Remarkable looks... interesting. That it turns "//google.com" into "http://google.com" seems silly though. Protocol-relative URIs are a thing.
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tantek Kevinmarks, so even <ul> vs. <ol> as to whether its ordered or not
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tantek perhaps even using the new "reversed" attribute to indicate reverse ordering, e.g. most recent posts first
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tantek https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/ol#attr-reversed
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tommorris http://camendesign.com/dont_wanna is a thoroughly good takedown of the whole web->web.js movement
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kevinmarks.com edited /template (+377) "/* HTML based template formats */" (view diff)
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jp finally got my domain pointing to my vps and nginx installed but i'm not sure where the html files are located - theres no www folder
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jp anyone have any ideas
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KevinMarks lol at application/xhtml+xml+screw+you+IE
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bret jp peek at /etc/nginx/available_sites/defaut
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bret i think
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bret there should be a default site defined there
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bret or the location of it
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bret someone dragged me through that configuration file the other day… still learning about it myself
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jp there's something there... its not the default index.html its all a mish mash in notepad let me open in notepad++
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tantek bret, want to start http://indiewebcamp.com/nginx with those tips?
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jp its a .txt
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tantek … and FAQ?
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bret jp that is the config file… there should be a section that covers the default site
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bret thats all i can help you with though… thats as far as I got
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bret tantek sure
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bret jp in that section there should be a path to the default site. This is all from memory though… you are going to have to poke around
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KevinMarks that was odd. my phone rang, and I accidentally hit the hang up button, and it transferred to hangouts on the chromebook
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jp woohooo
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jp found it thanks
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KevinMarks google voice finally behaving right
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bret yay
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Loqi :D
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KevinMarks reading this camendesgn site I want to send him a pull request to fix typos like tantek did for me
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bret you could keep a charged, unpaid for cell phone around for emergency and just use google hangouts as a phone number for free…. aaaand you are no longer paying AT&T
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bret jp can you confirm the path of /etc/nginx/sites_available?
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bret is that correct?
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KevinMarks not sure it even needs to be charged
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KevinMarks you do need to be able to put int he redirect string
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KevinMarks if you call my google voice # I think hangouts rings
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bret.io created /nginx (+202) "Created page with "{{stub}} Nginx is commonly used a http webserver similar to [[apache]]. The default configuration lives in /etc/nginx/sites_available although this location may vary depending..."" (view diff)
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bret.io edited /nginx (+1) (view diff)
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barnabywalters so, not sure whether I want to build my own DOM templating from scratch or try to work on kroc’s code
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barnabywalters more implementations is probably better
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bret maybe play with it
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jp http://julian.so
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jp still need to fix the zone file thingies
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jp www. isnt working
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jp and the MX records arent in the right place
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bret nice jp
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barnabywalters jp: looking good!
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jp need to redo it and use <article> <nav> etc
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jp its all divs atm
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barnabywalters hmm I’m going to roll my own as kroc’s code is very XML focused
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bret i saw that too
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KevinMarks why doesn't indiewebcamp.com have a favicon?
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bret it has an apple touch icon though!
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KevinMarks that doesn't help me when I have too many tabs in chrome
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KevinMarks hm, my site hasn't got a favicon either
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barnabywalters if I reuse the querySelector and querySelectorAll method names from the JS DOM, will people be annoyed if they have to pass a context node in a la jQuery?
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barnabywalters instead of having to wrap every single DOMElement in yet another wrapper class
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tantek barnabywalters: re: "not sure" - perhaps start with documenting your template use cases first in a new subsection here: http://indiewebcamp.com/template#Use_Cases
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barnabywalters tantek: I looked at krocs code and I am sure now. But I will document my thoughts anyway
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tantek would be great to see your thoughts too
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tantek I'll likely consider your use cases while improving my own templating support
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barnabywalters I’ll start an implementation brainstorming section
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barnabywalters this makes too much sense not to build :)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /template (+1125) "/* IndieWeb Thoughts */ added Taproot template use cases" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /template (+1126) "/* HTML based template formats */ dumped a load of implementation brainstorming" (view diff)
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KevinMarks so, do you strip the 'template' classes on output?
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barnabywalters KevinMarks: I doubt it’ll be necessary
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KevinMarks thinking about this a bit more, is not a page marked up in microformats effectively a template?
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barnabywalters I’m not building a system which strongly couples classes to behaviour, basically just a DOM manipulation toolkit optimised for template use
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KevinMarks you can parse it to get the JSON
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barnabywalters KevinMarks: no reason it can’t be, just make the templating library replace mf2 classnames with values
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KevinMarks you can also parse it to get the shell left by that JSON, and replace it with something else
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KevinMarks this really is the second coming of XOXO
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KevinMarks the point of that was that it could be round tripped
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barnabywalters HTML -> mf2 parser -> JSON structure -> transformation -> HTML -> (loop back)
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barnabywalters anyway, coding
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KevinMarks 'cos tally is telling you what to replace in the element, but mf2 does that too.
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barnabywalters I’m hitting up against an issue: css selectors can’t select individual attributes
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KevinMarks !tell tantek mf2 syntax is complete enough to specify what part of the element is replaced with what, just like tally
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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barnabywalters kroc came up with a shorthand but I really don’t want to do that
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KevinMarks you mean if there's a list?
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barnabywalters I mean http://camendesign.com/dom_templating#api-setvalue allows you to setValue('element@attr', 'attrvalue')
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barnabywalters but a CSS selector doesn’t get you that level of granularity
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barnabywalters and xpath is horrible
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barnabywalters so is another method required? setAttribute('element selector', 'attribute', 'value')
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barnabywalters that’s like jQuery’s $('element').attr('name', 'value'_
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barnabywalters )
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barnabywalters so now I’m just reinventing jquery
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KevinMarks what if you want to add to an attribute list?
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barnabywalters KevinMarks: when might you want to do that?
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KevinMarks class="h-card" and add "p-author" for eg
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barnabywalters oh right — that’s adding a classname, that’s a bit easier
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barnabywalters i thought you meant programmatically adding more attributes
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KevinMarks well, that's doable too
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barnabywalters https://github.com/electrolinux/phpquery is a PHP implementation of jQuery but it uses nasty global static variables for some reason
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barnabywalters ah well, reinventing jQuery it is :)
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KevinMarks nasty global static variables fro some reason (PHP)
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barnabywalters hey, certain python frameworks do very similar things (ahem django ahem)
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barnabywalters I almost never see that kind of library design in modern PHP stuff any more
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barnabywalters bah, I can’t get DOMDocument to retain whitespace in the <head>, only in the body
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barnabywalters oh well, you can’t have everything
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Loqi tantek: KevinMarks left you a message 1 hour, 4 minutes ago: mf2 syntax is complete enough to specify what part of the element is replaced with what, just like tally