#indiewebcamp 2013-11-30

2013-11-30 UTC
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bret heh http://disqus.com/humans.txt
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tantek good afternoon indiewebcamp
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tantek what are folks' preferred map display services/libraries for showing visualizations of locations on their site?
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@ShaneHudson @juice49 Yeah. I'm going to make a set of plugins that will let me take my site the direction I want to take it. Mainly #indieweb things (twitter.com/_/status/406585956364349440)
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@juice49 @ShaneHudson What is #indieweb? (twitter.com/_/status/406586223994867712)
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@ShaneHudson @juice49 This should explain it nicely :) http://indiewebcamp.com/principles (twitter.com/_/status/406586780419231744)
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shanehudson.net edited /checkin (+26) (view diff)
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tantek whoa when did Google Latitude get shutdown?
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tantek also, re: losing stuff on iOS woes - just tried out this download which seems to view backup content (including txt msgs) quite well: http://download.cnet.com/iBackup-Viewer/3000-18545_4-75692452.html
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href a long time ago no?
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bret !tell tantek http://leafletjs.com/ seems to be a popular choice. It renders maptiles and even works on mobile browsers pretty well
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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ShaneHudson Not sure what the question was but for more complicated things OpenLayers is a fairly good choice. Very powerful although a little outdated performance wise (there is a large update in the works)
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KevinMarks_ Latitude was shut down as part of the Gogole Maps rewrite. there is aversion insdie the G+ app as locations
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KevinMarks_ which is the wrong place for it, I want it on my maps
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ShaneHudson Yup, it is now enabled by default (at least it was on my nexus 5)
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KevinMarks_ !tell tantek latitude was shut down in August as part of the google maps rewrite https://support.google.com/gmm/answer/3001634?hl=en
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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Loqi tantek: bret left you a message 1 hour, 13 minutes ago: http://leafletjs.com/ seems to be a popular choice. It renders maptiles and even works on mobile browsers pretty well
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Loqi tantek: KevinMarks_ left you a message 1 hour, 1 minute ago: latitude was shut down in August as part of the google maps rewrite https://support.google.com/gmm/answer/3001634?hl=en
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tantek bret - good to know. I saw that leafletjs and also modestmaps
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bret tantek another useful tool for throwing together quick maps is http://geojson.io/
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tantek wondering if there's a simple <iframe> embed version of any of these
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tantek where you give it a src URL with lat&lon and it simply embeds the map inside the iframe
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tantek.com edited /site-deaths (+257) "/* 2013 */ 2013-08-09 Google Latitude retired (thanks KevinMarks for citation)" (view diff)
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tantek interesting coincidence, same day as Silent Circle shutting down
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tantek which was the day after Lavabit shutdown
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tantek bret I don't really get geojson.io. All I remember about geojson is critically discussing it with aaronpk about its more math than maps and should've been named geomjson (geometry json).
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bret i guess that makes sense XD
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bret but its tied to lat long data no?
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tantek it seems unitless actually
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bret a new 'private' social network is making rounds https://getsyme.com/
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bret not sure how to categorize it.... look like a silo that lets you pass around encrypted data
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tantek bret - Diaspora was originally for people to "share privately with groups"
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bret Aral is working on launching a phone! http://indiephone.eu/
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tantek bret - indeed. it's quite hard to launch a "phone".
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tantek also seems like a lot of overlap with FireFoxOS - perhaps aral can use it as a starting point
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bret and os and ... whatever else is involved, seems like a huge task
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tantek yes
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tantek.com edited /location (+43) "update stub header, note relation to checkin, event, and note" (view diff)
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tantek bret - do you post location/geo information along with any of your notes?
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bret tantek i have not
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tantek ok was just curious
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bret I want to keep track of location data/bookmarks with my site, but nothing has been made yet
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tantek am looking into how to markup location information in a post
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bret Lat/long, date and A name would be where I start
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tantek well date (dt-published) and id (url) are already parts of posts
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bret oh right ;)
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bret should it tie in to flight data, like aaron was doing?
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bret i guess thats kind of its own thing
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tantek yeah I'm just thinking of current simple uses
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tantek e.g. tweets have location
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tantek photos have location
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tantek both of which are "FYI" type information - not central
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tantek whereas for a checkin post, location is key/central
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tantek similarly for an event (post), location is essential
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bret I think benwerd has a simple location data filed on his post interface
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bret iirc
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bret i gotta run! bbl
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tantek.com edited /location (+240) "update to uf2, note photo/video also commonly have location" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /note (+43) "/* Less Common Aspects */ location rather than geo, but link to both" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /Geo (+17) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /Location (+22) "r" (view diff)
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tantek !tell barnabywalters tried to look at screenshots of notes that you'd posted on your own site, but login on the page doesn't work (and appears to be required) http://photos.waterpigs.co.uk/photos/tags-note/list#
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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tantek hmm - map links from Twitter appear to be very slow to load
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tantek e.g. just trying to click on the "Austin, TX" link which goes to a gmap URL: https://maps.google.com/maps?q=30.26486910%2C-97.73992552&z=15 never finishes loading for me.
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tantek e.g. on this tweet: https://twitter.com/aaronpk/status/311161906809421824
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@aaronpk @dens I hope we run in to each other today! @caseorganic and I would love to catch up!
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tantek didn't tweets with location used to show a little mini-map?
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aaronpk yes they did
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aaronpk do they not anymore?
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aaronpk oh sad
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aaronpk tantek: geojson is coming to be the standard in JSON representations of lat/lng data
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aaronpk all the open source mapping libraries use it
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tantek aaronpk - do you have any screenshots of Twitter notes with location maps?
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aaronpk hm let me check
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tantek I think barnabywalters may have had some but he posted them in openphoto/trovebox and I think something is messed up with his install as it now requires login just to view and the login is broken
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aaronpk heh
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tantek seriously not going to trust any open source content related projects that the founders/authors aren't self-dogfooding on their primary own domain
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aaronpk yeah, I never felt comfortable with those photo hosting projects which is why I still use flickr
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aaronpk oh and because search is hard
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tantek yes
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aaronpk I want my own search app that I can point at all my own websites, kind of like how you'd install a google search applicance for your intranet
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tantek I wouldn't mind an indiesearch that just searched indieweb sites (and perhaps related community)
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tantek and was actually *comprehensive*
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aaronpk a search app that can parse and index microformats2 documents would be sweet
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tantek as in had all posts indexed
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tantek Google used to have all my since-2010 posts indexed but at some point they dropped a bunch
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tantek and don't return comprehensive results any more
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aaronpk yeah, indiesearch would be cool
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aaronpk speaking of indie* did you see Aral's renaming of Prometheus?
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tantek aaronpk - see logs - bret & I already briefly discussed it ;)
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tantek with Technorati we kind of had that (comprehensive indie search) - in that if you signed up and claimed your blog on Technorati, we would explicitly spider and index your archives
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aaronpk ah yes
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aaronpk "Indie, the Indie Spaceship Logo, Indie Phone, Indie OS, Indie Cloud, Empowering Humans, and Deeply Empowering are trademarks of Article 12 Limited."
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tantek which then provided good incentive for people to put a Technorati Search Widget on their sites
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tantek (which I built while there - the "searchlet" :) )
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aaronpk should we just rebuild that? lol
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tantek http://tantek.com/log/2005/01.html#d13t1608
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aaronpk sweet
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aaronpk yeah I'd use it
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tantek https://web.archive.org/web/20050110033039/http://www.technorati.com/members/searchlet.html
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tantek "Enable your readers to search your blog with the Technorat Searchlet."
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tantek [sic] ;)
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aaronpk heh
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aaronpk OMG I found one!
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tantek oh man - the wikipedia searchlet page which I mentioned got deleted after I left Technorati. bastards. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Searchlet
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aaronpk (a tweet with a map)
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aaronpk http://www.flickr.com/photos/aaronpk/7771330904/ hashtag #indieweb #UX
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aaronpk I must have been planning on showing mini-maps on my own posts when I took that screenshot
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tantek whoa nice capture!
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tantek my guess is that Google said stop
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aaronpk heh yeah
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tantek because now they just hyperlink to google map queries like: https://maps.google.com/maps?q=30.26486910%2C-97.73992552&z=15
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aaronpk or said "ok pay us $$$"
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tantek right
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tantek they could have just used OSM
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tantek meh
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aaronpk "just used OSM" is misleading
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tantek well, Leaflet.js or equivalent as we've been discussing
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tantek modestmaps
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aaronpk OSM doesn't really want to provide hosting services to people, despite having a publicly available map
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aaronpk leaflet is just a javascript library
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aaronpk you need tiles from somewhere
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aaronpk mapbox provides tiles as a paid service
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tantek um: nominatim.openstreetmap.org/search?street=2+harrison+st&city=san+francisco&state=ca
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aaronpk the data for mapbox tiles comes from OSM
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tantek http://nominatim.openstreetmap.org/search?street=2+harrison+st&city=san+francisco&state=ca
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tantek seems to "work fine"
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aaronpk FSVO of "fine"
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aaronpk as in, TOS may prevent you from doing things with it
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tantek looks like it just required a minimal cc-by/sa attribution to OSM etc
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tantek http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Nominatim
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aaronpk nominatim is the geocoding/search part of OSM, not tiles
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aaronpk "The tile service comes with no guarantee as to availability or speed" http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Deploying_your_own_Slippy_Map
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aaronpk http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tile_usage_policy
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aaronpk "OpenStreetMap data is free for everyone to use. Our tile servers are not."
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aaronpk "Do not hardcode any URL at tile.openstreetmap.org into an app."
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tantek hence modestmaps
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aaronpk modestmaps is just a javascript library too, you still need tiles from somewhere
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aaronpk the example one http://modestmaps.com/ uses mapbox.com tiles
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aaronpk on*
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aaronpk mapquest actually does provide a free tile hosting service: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mapquest#MapQuest-hosted_map_tiles (can be used with leaflet or modestmaps or any other JS or non-JS library)
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aaronpk I should probably do a writup of this stuff huh
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Loqi yea!
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aaronpk tantek: do you think you and others would benefit from a full writup of how all this stuff works? what all the pieces are, how to find which ones to use, licensing/TOS stuff, etc?
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tantek yes - because it is not clear at all
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tantek the stamen stuff looks reasonable though
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tantek e.g. http://maps.stamen.com/#terrain/12/37.7706/-122.3782
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tantek simple demo: http://maps.stamen.com/test/modestmaps.html
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aaronpk yeah the stamen maps look good for sure
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tantek so I think stamen solved the tile problem
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tantek "We’d love to see these maps used around the web, so we’ve included some brief instructions to help you use them in the mapping system of your choice. These maps are available free of charge. If you use the tiles we host here, please use this attribution: Map tiles by Stamen Design, under CC BY 3.0. Data by OpenStreetMap, under CC BY SA."
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aaronpk great
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tantek I mean, you're more of a knowledgable expert on this stuff - tell me what I'm missing.
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aaronpk yes, that looks like they do in fact want people to use the tiles directly
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tantek yes - per this: "To use these tiles, just include our JavaScript alongside your favorite mapping library:"
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tantek that sounds like: ok to use our tiles directly, and here's a JS library that does so
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aaronpk oh funny, what does their JS library do?
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tantek that's what this was demoing: http://maps.stamen.com/test/modestmaps.html
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aaronpk oh clever, it sets all the attribution and min/max zoom level stuff for each JS library
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aaronpk http://maps.stamen.com/js/tile.stamen.js?v1.2.4 (there is code there specifically for Leaflet, ModestMaps, etc)
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tantek right
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tantek ModestMaps is stamen's own library
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tantek I like "no-frills" :)
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aaronpk which means you technically don't need the stamen JS library if you just copy the relevant bit of code into your own JS
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tantek note that they even give you an SSL endpoint for directly loading/access of their tiles
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aaronpk I should mention that Esri also provides tile services, and thanks to the new "developer plans" we helped introduce, you can use them for free
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aaronpk easiest way is probably through esri-leaflet: https://github.com/Esri/esri-leaflet
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Loqi yea
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tantek ooh!
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tantek I was wondering
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aaronpk I do like the "grey" basemap. super minimal labels, gets out of the way if you're putting other things on the map: http://esri.github.io/esri-leaflet/arcgisbasemaps.html change to "gray" (sorry for the lack of permalink)
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tantek pretty
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aaronpk the national geographic basemap is also really nice
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aaronpk more of a normal looking map
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tantek yes that's nicer than the nominatim cartoonish looking SVG
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tantek (you did notice that they were sending back SVG tiles right? e.g.: http://nominatim.openstreetmap.org/search?street=2+harrison+st&city=san+francisco&state=ca )
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aaronpk yeah, the one on the nominatim link has everything turned on, so it's ridiculously busy looking
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aaronpk oh yeah
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tantek maybe tommorris can help with recovering the old page from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Searchlet
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aaronpk tantek: there's also this that I've been working on, a service that lets you create a simple image map by writing an img tag. no JS needed https://github.com/esripdx/Static-Maps-API-PHP
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tantek oh that's cool. kinda like google charts img tags
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aaronpk yep
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aaronpk that's probably what I'm going to use for maps on my site when I finally get around to it
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tantek that's pretty awesome. would it be ok to show that img and then wrap it in a hyperlink to Google Maps for directions?
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aaronpk haha yeah sure
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aaronpk that's pretty funny
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tantek :)
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tantek I'm thinking a lot about maps right now because for me, showing a map is essential for event posts
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tantek (of the location)
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aaronpk but yeah, as long as you're following the TOS of whatever tile provider you select (stamen maps are there too) then you can do whatever you want with this
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aaronpk ah yeah maps for events makes a ton of sense
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tantek yes - in fact I'm specifically thinking a short and wide rectangle
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tantek e.g. http://static-maps.pdx.esri.com/img.php?marker[]=location:2+Harrison+st,+San+Francisco,+CA;icon:small-blue-cutout&basemap=gray&width=640&height=160&zoom=15
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aaronpk yeah! I like that format a lot
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tantek though I think I like orange better: http://static-maps.pdx.esri.com/img.php?marker[]=location:2+Harrison+st,+San+Francisco,+CA;icon:small-orange-cutout&basemap=gray&width=640&height=160&zoom=15
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aaronpk facebook has been doing that, right?
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tantek right
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tantek especially in their mobile web UI
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tantek for events
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aaronpk yeah orange stands out better
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tantek to me blue-dot is already used by iOS to mean "your device thinks you're here"
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tantek and red-dot is the traditional "you are here" on maps
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aaronpk true
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tantek fb uses 492x125
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tantek which I think is a bit too tight
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tantek I like my 640x160
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tantek gives just enough more room for many more complete street names to provide quick "at a glance" context
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aaronpk right
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aaronpk when it's shorter, you kind of need to be able to recognize the area to get any meaning
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tantek I like showing sufficient zoom to show a few street names (because I think that really helps with quick recognition of the area)
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tantek but when you zoom that far in, you need a bit more dimension to show enough space around the destination.
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tantek man, I was going to write a whole bunch of JS to do this the hard way (but based on reading a <p class="h-geo"> for the coordinates)
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tantek but now with this static img - I think I may skip all the JS
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aaronpk yeah, the JS is cool cause people can zoom in and out to get more context, but I think for a sort of "preview" the static img is better cause it loads faster. you can always link people out to a full map for directions and such
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tantek exactly. minimize JS
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tantek MFW style
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tantek the gray is so clean
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tantek Tufte would approve
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tantek I suppose I could still use clientside JS to generate the IMG with the static src
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aaronpk heh true
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tantek so search bots and other crawlers wouldn't bother to crawl/index the map img
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tantek they don't need it - it's purely for humans
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tantek they can pull the location info from the microformats
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aaronpk OTOH I would actually want facebook and twitter to use the map image as the preview image for my event posts
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tantek I wouldn't
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aaronpk the image would be more of a fallback in that case
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tantek I would want them to use the author-curated "event photo"
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aaronpk of course, but assuming there isn't one?
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aaronpk I have yet to include an "event photo" in any of my posts
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tantek in any of your event posts?
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tantek but nearly all events I've posted on FB or G+ I've added explicit event photos for the header
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aaronpk interesting. I like the idea, just have never done it
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tantek it seems to get more "engagement" on such events
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tantek perhaps not unlike having an iconic/representative photo on blog posts
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aaronpk I'm sure it does!
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tantek plus there seems to be a culture of doing it
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tantek events my friends organize seem to nearly all have an event header photo
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tantek and it does seem to add a draw to them
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tantek people seem to use the "event photo" like crafting an invitation
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aaronparecki.com edited /p3k (+207) "/* Events */ photos and maps" (view diff)
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aaronpk :)
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tantek oh yeah - good call
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aaronpk ok bedtime for me!
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aaronpk looking forward to seeing what you do with this!
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+491) "/* event posts */ rough thoughts on event post IA / visual design, cluster related aspects" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (-9) "/* event posts */" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+265) "/* event posts */ possibly do map graphic with JS on clientside to reduce crawling of map graphics" (view diff)
squeakytoy, tantek, melvster, bnvk, smus, KevinMarks2, skinny, wyomingplease, andreypopp, milk1, KartikPrabhu, singpolyma, pfenwick, jschweinsberg, CheckDavid, snarfed, friedcell, josephboyle and barnabywalters joined the channel
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Loqi barnabywalters: tantek left you a message 10 hours, 31 minutes ago: tried to look at screenshots of notes that you'd posted on your own site, but login on the page doesn't work (and appears to be required) http://photos.waterpigs.co.uk/photos/tags-note/list#
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barnabywalters !tell tantek indeed, openphoto broke even though I switched back from the dev branch to stable — and apparently when there’s an update ready to be applied, *every* permalink breaks — a poor design decision. Haven’t fixed yet due to building taproot being higher priority than fixing broken open source software, might migrate all the old content (maybe permalinks too) over
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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Loqi tantek: barnabywalters left you a message 55 minutes ago: indeed, openphoto broke even though I switched back from the dev branch to stable — and apparently when there’s an update ready to be applied, *every* permalink breaks — a poor design decision. Haven’t fixed yet due to building taproot being higher priority than fixing broken open source software, might migrate all the old content (maybe permalinks too) over
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@magseroticblog RT @lisa298: Come on UK readers! My book Out on Business is #Free THIS WEEKEND ONLY http://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Business-Lisa-Fulham-ebook/dp/B00E3EQOAE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1382977410&sr=8-1&keywords=out+on+business get yours #RT #Review #IndieAuth… (twitter.com/_/status/406826865547300864)
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@Sabsam789 RT @lisa298: Come on UK readers! My book Out on Business is #Free THIS WEEKEND ONLY http://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Business-Lisa-Fulham-ebook/dp/B00E3EQOAE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1382977410&sr=8-1&keywords=out+on+business get yours #RT #Review #IndieAuth… (twitter.com/_/status/406827288605786112)
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@zoeyhartauthor RT @lisa298: Come on UK readers! My book Out on Business is #Free THIS WEEKEND ONLY http://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Business-Lisa-Fulham-ebook/dp/B00E3EQOAE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1382977410&sr=8-1&keywords=out+on+business get yours #RT #Review #IndieAuth… (twitter.com/_/status/406827899228917760)
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@HansonHanson4 RT @lisa298: Come on UK readers! My book Out on Business is #Free THIS WEEKEND ONLY http://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Business-Lisa-Fulham-ebook/dp/B00E3EQOAE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1382977410&sr=8-1&keywords=out+on+business get yours #RT #Review #IndieAuth… (twitter.com/_/status/406828732687867904)
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@AngelaJoycey RT @lisa298: Come on UK readers! My book Out on Business is #Free THIS WEEKEND ONLY http://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Business-Lisa-Fulham-ebook/dp/B00E3EQOAE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1382977410&sr=8-1&keywords=out+on+business get yours #RT #Review #IndieAuth… (twitter.com/_/status/406830997079359488)
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tantek !tell barnabywalters yikes! breaking permalinks would be a blocker for me - sounds like the Flickr silo is more reliable than OpenPhoto. Any way to export your photos to Flickr?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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jonnybarnes anyone got any guides for syndicatig to Twitter? By which I specifically mean sending the note to Twitter's API
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neuro` jonnybarnes: the twitter API is pretty clear about that. What do you need more ?
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jonnybarnes looking at how to authorize my PHP app using OAuth
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ShaneHudson There are plenty of non-indieweb guides, just have a google. I've used a php repo on github before to do it
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tantek jonnybarnes this might help: https://indiewebcamp.com/twitter#POSSE_to_Twitter
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jonnybarnes I'm already using Laravel 4 so this looks like a good start: https://github.com/thujohn/twitter-l4
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tantek oh right, the PHP bits to call Twitter's snowflake API
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tantek once you've got that working, then the fun stuff begins
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@benwerd Content-specific #POSSE toggles are up and running. Now to make them prettier ... #idno #indieweb https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/406857963794477056/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/406857963794477056)
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@IndieAssistant RT @lisa298: Come on UK readers! My book Out on Business is #Free THIS WEEKEND ONLY http://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Business-Lisa-Fulham-ebook/dp/B00E3EQOAE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1382977410&sr=8-1&keywords=out+on+business get yours #RT #Review #IndieAuth… (twitter.com/_/status/406858307115438080)
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jonnybarnes why do you call it snowflake?
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tantek jonnybarnes - because every service thinks they are special and thus deserves a unique API
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tantek : jonnybarnes - because every service thinks they are special and thus deserves a unique API
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tantek this is a recent post about it but it's been labeled as such since at least 2008: http://www.devx.com/blog/avoid-integration-snowflakes-api-reuse.html
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tantek sometimes also called the "Beautiful Fucking Snowflake API" problem
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tantek https://twitter.com/chrismessina/status/5983993304
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@chrismessina And, another beautiful fucking snowflake profile API: http://j.mp/in-profile Sigh. Guess they missed the memo about PortableContacts.net.
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tantek http://groovecoder.com/2009/07/21/oscon-quotes-day-1/
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KartikPrabhu int he context of APIs I just read this nice article : http://ruben.verborgh.org/blog/2013/11/29/the-lie-of-the-api/
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tantek that's a good post
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KartikPrabhu i was curious. What do indieweb folk think of all these silo apis?
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tantek KartikPrabhu - and previously: http://tommorris.org/posts/2452 (by our very own tommorris)
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KartikPrabhu yes. of course. I had read that a while back but forgotten
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@kevinmarks RT @benwerd: Content-specific #POSSE toggles are up and running. Now to make them prettier ... #idno #indieweb https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/406857963794477056/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/406864807430594561)
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tantek KartikPrabhu - and this little quip ;) https://twitter.com/t/status/354760839141658625
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@t Your “Open API” with proprietary TOS is not open, it's a bizdev hook.
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KartikPrabhu aah I miss out on all the twitter-ness. maybe it is finally time to join twitter and follow all these awesome quips you guys make
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tantek KartikPrabhu - you don't need to join Twitter to get my quips - you can get them from my home page or legacy Atom feed ;)
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KartikPrabhu aaha! of course I can! indieweb FTW!
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tantek re: the lie of the API - while CONNEG is one workaround to separate URLs, the author misses where we've made progress with microformats - the HTML becomes your API.
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KartikPrabhu tantek - I was thinking the same. With correctly markedup microformats the HTML already has the machine-readable data
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tantek http://www.jenitennison.com/blog/node/100
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KartikPrabhu re: the lie of the API - the author is also concerned with general resources like images/videos and the like that might not come packaged in HTML.
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tantek those have their own URLs already
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Loqi barnabywalters: tantek left you a message 2 hours, 4 minutes ago: yikes! breaking permalinks would be a blocker for me - sounds like the Flickr silo is more reliable than OpenPhoto. Any way to export your photos to Flickr?
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barnabywalters good evening
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barnabywalters tantek: nope, I think flickr -> OP (now trovebox, weirdly) import is one-way only
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barnabywalters so looks like I need to make some progress on photo posting in #taproot — i.e. something more than just notes with <img> elements in
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tantek sad to see it become unreliable
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barnabywalters plaintively tries pulling the latest version to see if that fixes it
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@kyle_wm A few months late, but I am joining he first federated #indieweb conversation: https://eschnou.com/entry/te http://kylewm.com/note/2013/5512 (twitter.com/_/status/406869032101359617)
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tantek nicely done kylewm!
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tantek POSSEing to Twitter, h-entry, rel=syndication, rel=in-reply-to
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barnabywalters anyone know what happened to openphoto? most of their branding changed to “trovebox”, https://trovebox.com/ but there’s no mention of open source software on that site, and the old openphoto repo hasn’t been touched for 6 months :/ https://github.com/photo/frontend
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barnabywalters kylewm: your notes are looking good and parsing well! nice work
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barnabywalters kylewm: you should change the scheme of your twitter syndication links to https so original-post-discovery works
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barnabywalters (http://waterpigs.co.uk/services/original-post can be used to test it)
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@kyle_wm A few months late, but I having fun trying to join the first federated #indieweb conversation :) http://kylewm.com/note/2013/5512 (twitter.com/_/status/406870898390491137)
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barnabywalters not sure where best to document that twitter syndication https requirement
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tantek barnabywalters - perhaps on http://indiewebcamp.com/rel-syndication
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barnabywalters tantek: yes that’s a good place. I was going to put it on /Twitter
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barnabywalters but I’ll just add a link to rel-syndication
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tantek perhaps as a subsection here http://indiewebcamp.com/rel-syndication#Publishing
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tantek because this is about what you publish *on your own site* not on Twitter
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tantek if I understood you correctly
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tantek you're talking about rel=syndication links *to* https://twitter.com/
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barnabywalters yes
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tantek then yeah this seems like the right section for it: http://indiewebcamp.com/rel-syndication#Publishing
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tantek maybe a "Links to Twitter" subsection
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /Twitter (+142) "/* POSSE to Twitter in general */ mentioned tweet URL construction, linked to rel-syndication for more details" (view diff)
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tantek nice
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /rel-syndication (+234) "/* Publishing */ added twitter special considerations" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /rel-syndication (+1) "/* Linking to Twitter.com */ fixed markup bug" (view diff)
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barnabywalters bbiab
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KartikPrabhu webmention Q - When sending a webmention should there be some way of saying what kind of mention is being sent? That is was the target only 'mentioned' in source, or 'quoted', or 'cited' or 'rsvp'ed, or 'reposted'?
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@CherryInTheSnow RT @lisa298: Come on UK readers! My book Out on Business is #Free THIS WEEKEND ONLY http://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Business-Lisa-Fulham-ebook/dp/B00E3EQOAE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1382977410&sr=8-1&keywords=out+on+business get yours #RT #Review #IndieAuth… (twitter.com/_/status/406878066406096897)
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aaronpk KartikPrabhu: no, that's already handled when the receiver parses the HTML of the mention, based on what kind of microforamts is present
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: I realised that soon as I posted the question. But the microformats only have an explicit u-in-reply-to, but no other format to specify the link type (yet!?)
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kylewm tantek: just saw that my tweets landed here, thanks for the encouragement!
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kylewm barnabywalters: re: twitter syndication links to https -- ok will do!!
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tantek KartikPrabhu - what is it that you're trying to do?
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KartikPrabhu tantek - Basically when parsing webmentions sent to me, I would like to do different things depending on whether say it is a 'reshare' (or as tumblr calls it 'repost') of the original or if it is a separate article that is in reply to one of mine, or if it merely links to mine but is not actually in reply-to.
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KartikPrabhu so far only u-reply-to is being used, but there might be scope to have more kinds of replies?
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aaronpk I believe there are a few other types being posted right now
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aaronpk I know sandeep.io is parsing comments, likes, re-posts and mentions
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aaronpk and benwerd posts "likes" from werd.io
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KartikPrabhu will check it out. thanks
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tantek I think Sandeep is parsing u-like u-repost
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aaronpk can't find any examples off-hand, but check out the wiki page on "like" and others
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tantek I think idno can post u-like(s) also (but not yet reposts AFAIK)
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tantek right, check /like and /repost
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tantek so right now there are mentions (default), comments/replies (in-reply-to), RSVPs (an in-reply-to with a p-rsvp value), likes (in-reply-to with u-like), reposts (in-reply-to with u-repost)
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tantek.com created /snowflake (+261) "stub" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu good to know!
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tantek.com edited /2013/API_All_the_Things (+777) "archive the notes from the etherpad" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /platform (+22) "linky linky" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /protocols (+233) "stub" (view diff)
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tantek.com moved /protocols to /protocol "singular"
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tantek.com created /formats (+225) "stub" (view diff)
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tantek.com moved /Hosted_API to /2012/UK/Hosted_API "move to event specific path"
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@CindyPond @LauraMulcahy1 love watching the shifts ... consumers & fans ruling the day while many larger companies still trying to control #ownYourData (twitter.com/_/status/406895304500604928)
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tantek.com moved /formats to /format "singular"
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tantek.com edited /snowflake (+509) "expand definition with summary" (view diff)
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tantek somehow related to all this API duplicitousness is APP duplicitousness: http://tommorris.org/posts/8070
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tommorris tantek: good news - my mother now has a personal domain and web presence. echo parents >> indieweb ;)
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tantek tommorris - I think you win
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KartikPrabhu tommorris - you win indeed. I can't get my parents to use a computer even!
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tommorris she's using wordpress.com premium. think she's quite a way from trying ferocity or falcon or any of other homebrew solutions
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tantek tommorris - she has her own piece of web real estate as it were, so that's the important start
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tantek perhaps we should document at least brainstorming strategies for migrating people from wordpress.com hosted - e.g. permalink maintenance (no idea where to start)
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tommorris you can migrate from wordpress.com-with-your-own-domain to self-hosted wordpress fairly easily
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tommorris it dumps out a big XML file. you just import that back in
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tantek.com created /API (+3291) "stub with a bunch of URLs mentioned today in IRC and others they reminded me of" (view diff)
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tantek tommorris - sure, migrating to wordpress self-hosted is possible, but I'd say not advised - it's too much of a maintenance hassle
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tommorris a Wordpress XML archive to HTML w/hAtom tool would probably be quite useful
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tantek yes
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tantek that
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tantek tommorris - just "stubbed" (using that term loosely) this article from scratch (surprised we didn't have something before) http://indiewebcamp.com/API
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tantek I feel like you might easily think of more to add to it
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tantek (I mean I only cited two of your posts ;) )
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tommorris heh
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tantek.com edited /API (-1) "/* DRY Violation */ ws" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu tantek - adding this article (http://ruben.verborgh.org/blog/2013/11/29/the-lie-of-the-api/) in the context of DRY violation... ?
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tantek yes - sorry forgot to add that. go ahead.
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tommorris.org edited /API (+429) "complexity" (view diff)
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kartikprabhu.com edited /API (+112) "/* DRY Violation */" (view diff)
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tantek great
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tantek I'm going to split the DRY violation into two sections
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tantek.com edited /API (+878) "/* DRY Violation */ split into two subsections, different URLs, duplicate content in different format(s)" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /API (+418) "/* DRY Violation */ move App duplicitousness up" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu reading the API wiki page now, it seems to me that the leading philosophy is: publisher publishes only HTML+microformats and clients can parse it in any which way they want. correct?
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tantek.com edited /API (+29) "/* DRY Violation */ move RSS up as an example of DRY violation of same/similar content, different format, different URL" (view diff)
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tantek KartikPrabhu rather, that clients can parse the HTML using common HTML parsing libraries, and the microformats as well simillarly http://microformats.org/wiki/parsers
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tantek there's more precision there than "any which way they want"
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tantek and by doing so, they get the JSON or whatever they want, without having to burden *every* *single* *publisher* with publishing duplicate formats or URLs
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KartikPrabhu yes, by "any which way they want" i meant, they could choose to parse the whole thing to JSON if they wanted to
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KartikPrabhu cool! we seem to be on the same page! :)
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tantek speaking of which I remember seeing tommorris and barnabywalters working on a Python microformats2 parser
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tantek tommorris - could you add the Python uf2 parser to a new "Python" subsection here? http://microformats.org/wiki/parsers#microformats2_parsers
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KartikPrabhu is it not this one: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2#Python
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tommorris tantek: done
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tantek good find KartikPrabhu
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tantek looks like we may have some wiki clean-up / simplifying to do
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tantek thanks tommorris
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KartikPrabhu i knew i had seen it somewhere! :P
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tantek remember that "culture of performing" that I was complaining about from social media interactions? It's apparently far worse: https://medium.com/i-m-h-o/fcc6956937fa :/
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KartikPrabhu everyone now is a paparazzo and everyone else a Paris Hilton!
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tommorris this sounds like a very computeranonymous.org conversation.
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tantek tommorris - while I understand the humor, the serious aspect I'm trying to take to heart is how (if we can at all) can we alter or deliberately design our indieweb publishing and interactions to do better than the dopamine-addiction and crass-feedback-loop traps that social media has wrought.
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tantek I want to believe we can do better.
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KartikPrabhu tantek - it might not be a problem of the tools used, but people who use them are not responsible
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tantek KartikPrabhu - people have many potential natures. The design of the tools and services we use can influence how people choose to behave.
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KartikPrabhu but once you make web social interactions very very accessible and easy, I don;t see how you can stop people from being a&&#oles on it
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KartikPrabhu tnatek - but maybe it is a good thing that you are not as cynical as I am.
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tantek KartikPrabhu - online social interactions can often mirror in-person social interactions (and the full range thereof). but I want to believe we can design for better online interactions, rather than amplifying the lowest common denominator ("gotcha" or shaming culture), or amplifying the dopamine loop of today's posting/acting for likes (which was yesterday's sending emails to get responses, and then habitual inbox-checking)
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KartikPrabhu it would be really interesting if someone here actually solves this in someway
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tantek or even just improves upon it
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tantek I think we have that opportunity
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tantek and while we eager work on re-implementing silo features, but for our own sites, I'm just asking that we at least *consider* such social-design impacts, in the hopes that we can, maybe in some small way, built a distributed indie web that is more positive, more humane, than the culture(s) silos have amplified
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tantek s/built/build
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Loqi tantek meant to say: and while we eager work on re-implementing silo features, but for our own sites, I'm just asking that we at least *consider* such social-design impacts, in the hopes that we can, maybe in some small way, build a distributed indie web that is more positive, more humane, than the culture(s) silos have amplified
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KevinMarks_ this chap is a producer on The Bachelor
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KevinMarks_ not surprising he has poor boundary issues
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KartikPrabhu agreed! admittedly the small time i have spent on this IRC has been much more rewarding than hanging out on the 'silos'
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tantek KartikPrabhu - that's good to hear and a good start :)
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tantek KevinMarks, you might be interested in this presentation - just saw the slides myself: http://www.slideshare.net/dberkholz/assholes-are-killing-your-project (reminds me a lot of past episode that predates this preso)
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KevinMarks_ the 'node committer rejecting neutral pronouns' thing today is a prime example
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tantek KevinMarks - yes that's where I got the link from
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tantek from the joyent blog post
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tantek.com edited /note (+275) "/* Location */ add subsections, indieweb thoughts, twitter tweet with location examples" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu this might be of interest here: http://5by5.tv/webahead/59 the latest WebAhead podcast about Web RTC. about 30 min in they talk about thinking of the web as a telecommunication platform, and the role of silos and federated communication
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tantek yes there's much promise in that
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tantek one IndieWebCampUK 2013 presenter showed how he uses his own website + webRTC to let people reach him in whatever country he's in (his site figure out which phone number to forward a WebRTC call to)
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bear that goal/promise is driving a lot of what my group is trying to do, and ensure that it can happen, with WebRTC
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK/demos
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tantek it was Sammachin.com
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KartikPrabhu sweet!
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tantek ooh - have to run but this section could use subsections for each presenter: http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK/demos#Selfdogfood_Demos_-_Day_1
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tantek if one of you has a moment to help a wiki page out !
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tantek so we could direct link to Sam Machin's demo
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bear will attempt that now
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tantek note how the following section *does* have subsections for each presenter: http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK/demos#Hack_Day_Demos_-_Day_2
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tantek thanks bear1
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tantek thanks bear!
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bear I will dup what I find in section 2 now - will be done in minutes
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aaronpk tantek: wow I had completely forgotten about that "sending emails to get responses, then habitual inbox-checking" behavior!
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aaronpk funny that some things never change, they just adapt to new media
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bear.im edited /2013/UK/Demos (+391) "added subsections to allow presenter direct links" (view diff)
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bear That is the one true constant of all online interactions - the tools, silos, apps, whatever rarely make a difference - it's how people interact with people and themselves. Compassion and Open-ness have to be taught, learned and enforced in order for it to become the norm