#indiewebcamp 2013-12-01

2013-12-01 UTC
KartikPrabhu joined the channel
#
tantek Thanks bear. now a question - how to dedup the folks that gave demos both before and after
#
tantek aaronpk - indeed. And email was/is federated/distributed and *still* reinforced that kind of bad behavior.
#
tantek hence my concern that we should specifically design for better with the indieweb. or at least try.
#
tantek who knows if it is possible or not, but we won't find out unless we at least try.
erikmaarten and snarfed joined the channel
#
bret Elena recieved her first peice of iMessage spam :[ never seen that before
snarfed, tpinto, Nadreck, julian` and tantek joined the channel
#
tantek bret - whoa - iMessage spam? Who from?
#
bret let me upload it
skinny joined the channel
#
tantek.com created /short_domain (+27) "r" (view diff)
#
tantek oh boy
#
tantek.com edited /2013/UK/Demos (+19) "dedup subsections to disambig frag linking, follow existing pattern of after demos using given name" (view diff)
#
bret.io uploaded /File:imsg_spam.PNG "Example of iMessage spam"
#
bret there you go tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/File:imsg_spam.PNG
#
pdurbin KartikPrabhu: I downloaded that episode. Thanks.
#
tantek.com edited /short-domains (+82) "/* ro */ note recommendation against" (view diff)
KartikPrabhu joined the channel
#
KartikPrabhu pdurbin: your welcome!
#
KartikPrabhu you're* oh the internets has messed up my spelling skills
#
tantek bret - oh wow they were able to register a hotmail address as an AppleID!
#
tantek bret - was this today?
#
bret yeah this morning
#
bret i was loling at the hotmail
#
bret.io edited /spam (+119) "Added spam example" (view diff)
tantek and jp joined the channel
#
tantek.com edited /spam (+69) "move iMessage Spam to its own section since its not really part of the coming spam storm against indieweb blogs" (view diff)
#
tantek bret - no kidding. I'm sure the spammer has nothing to do with shaners's Homesteading project ;)
#
tantek aaronpk - I got an error about the cert on iwc: The certificate is only valid for the following names: *.pin13.net , pin13.net
#
tantek (e.g. when clicking the link in the /topic )
tantek, skinny and ryana joined the channel
#
tantek.com edited /ActivityStreams (+157) "/* See Also */ found original AS examples on DiSo Wiki of all places" (view diff)
#
tantek.com edited /snowflake (+1016) "add references / uses of snowflake in this regard, possible origin" (view diff)
#
tantek.com edited /rel-syndication (+0) "/* Publishing */ move inline see also for better contextual relevance" (view diff)
aaronpk_ joined the channel
#
aaronpk_ tantek: What browser do you get the cert error on?
#
tantek FF
#
aaronpk_ It works fine for me on mobile safari and mobile chrome
#
aaronpk_ latest firefox?
#
tantek yes
#
tantek did you try https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/today
#
aaronpk_ yea, works fine
#
aaronpk_ It's using the feature of SSL that lets you run multiple hostnames on the same IP, it was an extension to SSL but it
#
aaronpk_ it's not that new anymore
cyclick joined the channel
#
tantek oh interesting
#
aaronpk_ used to be that the SSL connection was negotiated before the browser could send the "Host" header
#
aaronpk_ but that was updated a while ago to allow multiple domains to run on the same IP with unique certificates
#
aaronpk_ I'm assuming you see the correct page after ignoring the warning?
#
tantek yes
#
aaronpk_ let me dig around a bit
#
aaronpk_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Server_Name_Indication
#
aaronpk_ it says Firefox 2.0 and later support it
#
tantek in that case I wonder if this is a regression perhaps
#
aaronpk_ does this describe your situation? https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=450280
#
tantek similar but I didn't think my domain was that slow
#
tantek er I mean my current internet connect
#
aaronpk_ well in any case, it sounds like firefox is doing something weird
#
tantek restarting FF to see if makes any difference (e.g. maybe something was cached while I was on a 3G mifi connection?)
#
tantek and it just worked
#
tantek interesting
#
aaronpk_ wow weird
#
aaronpk_ yeah, sounds like a timing thing then
#
aaronpk_ so anyway
#
aaronpk_ catching up on today...
#
aaronpk_ looking at the snowflake page
#
bear (old thread alert) - tantek, yea - I attempted a dedupe of that section but I was not familiar with the event so deferred, glad you were able to continue the gardening
#
aaronpk_ seems to be written in a rather harsh tone
#
aaronpk_ I wonder if the reason there are so many snowflake APIs is not because everyone thinks they're so special, but rather due to a lack of obvious standardized approach to creating these APIs
#
tantek bear - yay teamwork! :)
#
Loqi giggles
#
tantek aaronpk - nah, if that were the case then new services would simply mimic previous services
#
tantek which, aside from a bit of Twitter API mimicry, pretty much never happens
#
bear aaronpk_- are you using SNI with haproxy or nginx?
#
aaronpk_ bear: I think apache terminates SSL on that server
#
aaronpk_ actually wait a sec... now i'm not so sure
#
tantek aaronpk - added my case: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=450280#c41
#
bear ah - SNI is a nasty beast that i've only ever gotten to work with some clients over haproxy
#
bear because it depends on the client to send the appropriate headers and then also to respond in a timely manner for the transition so the proper cert is delivered
#
aaronpk_ bear: I've been using it rather successfully on nginx on another server
#
bear nods
#
aaronpk_ but let me double check this one, it's my older server
#
bear nginx is a great httpd
#
bear also make sure your not double proxying ssl
#
tantek offers up https://indiewebcamp.com/nginx for any recommendations / comments / edits
#
bear unless you are very careful, the headers don't survive the second layer normally
#
aaronpk_ ok yeah, apache is handling it for indiewebcamp.com
#
bear that is one mighty bare article :/
#
tantek hence, stub ;)
#
bear gets his gardening gloves on...
#
aaronpk_ i think most articles on the wiki are marked as stubs :) maybe we should remove stub from a few
#
aaronpk_ tantek: I'm just saying I wouldn't be so quick to blame API creators, I think there are a lot of missing pieces between the current state of things and the ideal state of things
#
bear sadly in most production shops - the public facing API is rarely designed
#
tantek aaronpk - agreed there are a lot of missing pieces
#
bear but rather a collection of changes and scaffolding that ends up being what remains
#
aaronpk_ bear: that is also true. and often the API is not designed so much as an artifact of the backend architecture
#
bear yep
#
aaronpk_ (the withings API being a prime example)
#
aaronpk_ and jawbone to some extent
#
bear i've had 3 public facing APIs and i've always ended up hating them after only a short period
#
tantek.com edited /snowflake (+568) "start FAQ with Are Snowflake APIs due to lack of standards" (view diff)
#
aaronpk_ I mean those guys are great, don't get me wrong, but I don't think API design is their strong suit
#
aaronpk_ tantek: another possible explanation is that some standards are hard to find, or it's not clear that they are a well-adopted standard
#
aaronpk_ like what determines when something is considered a "standard" that should be built on as opposed to someone's random spec they published on somedomain.io
#
tantek hah. that has an element of truth to it.
#
tantek.com edited /snowflake (+705) "Possible Lack of Design" (view diff)
#
tantek aaronpk - here are some tips for determining when something should be considered a standard that should be built on: http://tantek.com/2011/168/b1/practices-good-open-web-standards-development
#
aaronpk_ wow of course you have a URL for that
#
bear tantek - I'm filling in the nginx section now, it's written very much how I do it - so I fully expect a lot of helpful push back to get it out of "do *this*" and into "here is why you should do *this*"
#
tantek it's ok to have "do this" style instructions
#
aaronpk_ well technically some spec I make up and publish is covered by your first 3 bullet points
#
tantek aaronpk - yes, that's deliberate to help people evaluate specs on a scale
#
tantek and to help people incrementally improve specs on each aspect
#
tantek note that nowhere do I say "it should be from an official organization"
#
aaronpk_ we're in a weird position at esri with regards to a standard for a json representation of geo data
#
tantek aaronpk - beyond geojson?
#
tantek that seems to pass the "good enough" criteria
#
aaronpk_ i'm pretty sure geojson didn't exist when esri started creating their API, which was all JSON
#
tantek yes, such race conditions are inevitable
#
aaronpk_ if it did exist, it was brand brand new (i should reserach the timing on that)
#
tantek proprietary standards often use the excuse of how long it takes actual open standards to get done
#
aaronpk_ and the JSON representation of geometries in the esri APIs was never meant to be a standard (it was never even named)
#
tantek and it's a semi-valid excuse
#
aaronpk_ it still doesn't even have name, if you ask people it's just the JSON format of geometries that the rest APIs use
#
aaronpk_ although people want it to have a name so bad that they call it "esrijson" or "arcjson"
#
aaronpk_ so i'm not even sure where this falls in the spectrum of snowflake vs building on standards
#
aaronpk_ it has unfortunately resulted in a parallel but slightly different version of geojson, although unintentional
#
bear.im edited /nginx (+3204) "first pass at an nginx how-to page" (view diff)
aaronpk_ joined the channel
#
bear.im edited /nginx (-8) "fix fixed width layout" (view diff)
#
bear.im edited /nginx (-11) "more fixed width corrections" (view diff)
#
bear.im edited /nginx (+7) "and the last set of fixed width changes" (view diff)
#
tantek bear - reading now
#
bear i'm adding some section by section text as to what each part is
#
tantek oh ok - yeah I wasn't quite following why I would need / want each one
#
bear well, the two bits given will form the foundation for any static site
#
bear after that, things get messy
#
tantek Have to admit this threw me: "The list of SSL Ciphers is selected to offer a balance ..."
#
tantek is that describing the example below?
#
bear yes
#
bear that cipher list a bunch of us spent almost a week testing and tweaking
#
tantek ah ok, perhaps as a following note
#
tantek as the first sentence it sounds like the primary description of the section!
#
bear k, i'll make that change
#
bear.im edited /nginx (+1328) "a breakdown of what each major config item is for" (view diff)
tpinto joined the channel
#
tantek nice
#
bear.im edited /nginx (+1038) "break down of what each part of the simple static config is" (view diff)
#
bear anything deeper and I think I'll have to create sub-pages
#
bear for things like PHP5 proxy (with FPM, without FPM, etc)
#
bear or NodeJS
#
tantek yeah I wouldn't worry about anything deeper until people ask questions
#
tantek that's typically how the pages grow - based on actual questions here in IRC
#
bear I will be around to answer anyone's nginx questions - glad to be able to help
#
tantek that way we also tend to avoid growing them in ways that people *think* would be useful as opposed to actual questions
#
tantek thanks much
#
tantek I think a few folks were trying it out
#
tantek hence the page got created
#
bear I use the example given for my current static site
#
bear which i'm slowly making more and more indie-web ish
#
tantek bear - that's very cool, perhaps it's worth listing that at the top in a "indieWeb Examples" section
#
tantek always helps to see that real people are actually using a project
#
bear at the top of the nginx page?
#
tantek yes
#
tantek we try at each page to indicate real world indieweb examples
#
bear k, i'll add that as a "why is this here" blurb
#
tantek either using a project
#
tantek or implementing
#
tantek.com edited /nginx (+72) "a few see also things" (view diff)
#
tantek.com edited /projects (+225) "/* Indie Web Projects */ Apache, nginx" (view diff)
#
bear.im edited /nginx (+155) "examples section" (view diff)
#
tantek awesome
#
bear.im edited /nginx (+52) "static site example config name" (view diff)
#
tantek is it possible for a website to send push notifications to a homescreen icon of that site on iOS?
#
tantek e.g. aaronpk setup the IndieWebCamp icon to direct link to today's IRC logs
#
tantek I wonder if there is anyway to make it show a red number badge on the icon for say, number of mentions of your username since you last opened it?
#
tantek also does anyone create home page icons for their personal sites?
#
tantek e.g. of their icon/photo/avatar?
#
tantek just tried werd.io and instead of benwerd's face I got a red idno icon
#
bear is not an IOS user sadly
#
tantek bear, not sadly at all - well done for cutting the cord
#
bear I am waiting for the next round of FFOS phones
#
tantek it's more of a general question for how to design the "add to homescreen" experience for indieweb sites
#
tantek yeah
#
bear all push notifications are done from an app (server side) to the app (client side)
#
bear google, apple, ffos
#
bear I know for our app, it's a nasty little webhook we run that allows the server to make a call and then it sends that to apple
#
tantek hmm - aaronpk's site made an icon of his face, as expected, but named it Aaron Pareck (missing the trailing i)
#
tantek wow look at all those <link rel="apple-touch-icon" … > on aaronparecki.com
#
tantek do we really need all those sizes
#
bear sadly yes
#
bear different apple device generations have different requirements
#
tantek won't it autosize for you?
#
bear not that I know of
#
bear I know our designer makes me keep all of that in our html headers
#
bear (well, not all of it, we do target the more recent ones)
#
tantek I'm going to try just sending a 128x128 jpg and see what happens
#
bear i'm reading the web docs from apple … it seems if you send one it will autosize
#
bear but it suggests sending a handful so they look best at the given resolution
#
bear the default size is 60x60 if not given
#
bear details here: https://developer.apple.com/library/ios/documentation/AppleApplications/Reference/SafariWebContent/ConfiguringWebApplications/ConfiguringWebApplications.html
#
tantek bear - that might make sense for PNG logo art - but if you're already using a JPG of a photo-like image, then the clientside auto-re-scaling will do fine.
#
tantek ok - got it working with a single link tag, no explicit size given. booyah.
#
bear \o/
#
tantek so that works for iOS, now I just need to upload a manifest file ;)
#
bear tries to avoid all things graphics
#
bear hugs his command line
#
tantek bear - but the FFOS phone has lots of graphics UI ;)
#
bear cries
#
bear yes, i'll soon be forced to admit that a GUI is a real thing
#
bear and not some shared delusion that all my dev friends have
#
tantek :)
#
tantek so yeah, 128x128 JPG of your face works just fine for a <link rel="apple-touch-icon" … >
#
bear nice - that makes it easier for a personal site
#
tantek this might need starting a new page
#
tantek on the wiki
#
tantek as a simple how-to
#
tantek bear - do you have a current FFOS phone with you?
#
tantek was going to try a manifest
#
bear no - I left it in Portland with a dev friend. Once I discovered it would not handle my daily requirements
#
tantek yeah
abrereton joined the channel
#
tantek wonder what android uses
#
bear I do have multiple android devices tho
#
bear tantek - https://developers.google.com/chrome/mobile/docs/installtohomescreen (chrome how to)
#
tantek so I just tried combining the two
#
tantek <link rel="shortcut icon apple-touch-icon">
#
tantek and that now fails in iOS
#
tantek bad iOS - not parsing link rel attribute values properly :P
#
bear yep
#
bear really really hates all the hoops Safari and other iOS clients make required
#
tantek and they don't support the standard rel="short icon" either
#
tantek how sad
#
tantek bear - ok I tried adding the chrome stuffs - see if that works on tantek.com (to add an icon of my site to your homescreen)
#
bear k, let me look on my android phone
#
tantek meanwhile I'll now start that wiki page
jancborchardt joined the channel
#
bear on my tablet (Nexus 7 running kitkat) your bookmark shows your face - now adding to the home screen
#
tantek oh cool
#
bear yep, once I told it to add the bookmark to the homescreen - your handsome mug is visible
#
bear and the title of your site is the icon name, not the domain
#
tantek well hopefully it's something like "Tantek Çelik"
#
tantek rather than tantek.com
#
bear sorry, that's what I was trying tosay
#
bear it's your full name, not the domain
#
bear unicode and all
aaronpk_ joined the channel
#
tantek cool
#
tantek hey aaronpk welcome back
#
tantek we're talking how to make indieweb icons for home screens
#
bear my phone doesn't have the proper chrome version to test it
#
aaronpk_ i saw!
#
aaronpk_ wanted to mention
#
tantek lamenting the proprietary BS that is still needed
#
aaronpk_ ios doesn't provide a push notification channel to home screen bookmarks (yet)
#
aaronpk_ tho I wouldn't be surprised if that happens soon
#
aaronpk_ because safari on OSX just added it!
#
aaronpk_ so websites can send push notifications to computers now
#
aaronpk_ https://developer.apple.com/notifications/safari-push-notifications/
#
tantek oh neat
#
tantek.com created /icon (+2552) "stub with code documentation and an indieweb examples" (view diff)
#
tantek.com created /bookmarks (+22) "redirect" (view diff)
#
tantek aaronpk - looks like you have markup for adding your site to a homescreen on iOS, but not on Android
#
tantek note: http://indiewebcamp.com/icon
#
aaronpk_ wrt all the different size icons for ios, thats because normally people actually design differnet icons for different resolutions, because often auto-sizing doesn't do a good job of resampling for icons
#
tantek also I got away with being lazy and just having a single 128x128 icon ;)
#
aaronpk_ for jpgs, yeah it doesn't matter
#
aaronpk_ but for line art or other pixel-accurate things you often do need to make a different icon for 48px than for 60px
#
aaronpk_ and for my site, I didn't have an android phone, and didn't bother reseraching home screen icons on android because I didn't even know that was possible
#
aaronpk_ ah, "new in Chrome M31 Beta"
#
tantek.com edited /icon (+475) "add FAQ" (view diff)
#
tantek aaronpk - but why use PNGs at all since your icon is obviously photographic
#
tantek why not just use a JPG for it?
#
tantek are you hand tweaking the PNGs yourself for different sizes of your face
#
tantek ?
#
aaronpk_ probably because I assumed iOS required pngs (and it may have at the point I created thata)
#
tantek ah ok - I decided to be lazy and just try with my existing icon file ;)
#
tantek and it seems to work
#
tantek I like the idea of having a whole page of icons on my mobile device that is just people's faces
#
tantek instead of stupid apps
#
aaronpk_ lol
#
aaronpk_ my first 2 pages of icons has been increasingly taken over by apps/bookmarks I've made
#
tantek let's see who else has made an icon of their face for their home page
#
bear tantek - https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6996586/Tantek%20on%20my%20home%20screen.png
#
aaronpk_ indiewebcamp IRC logs, esri IRC logs, p3k posting interface, pushups counter, reaction timer (coming to aaronparecki.com soon)
#
tantek bear - ooh pretty!
#
bear a very striking icon I must say
#
tantek mind uploading that screenshot to the wiki and we can use it as an example on http://indiewebcamp.com/icon ?
#
bear not at all
#
tantek aaronpk - I have a bigger idea here
#
tantek what if figured out how to make people in general add icons of each other to their home pages instead of stupid app intermediaries?
#
tantek directly connecting people with people?
#
aaronpk_ interesting
#
aaronpk_ that is interesting because I already know that I don't want to read a combined feed of everyone's post like twitter/facebook
#
bear.im uploaded /File:Tantek_on_home_screen.png "A screen shot of Tantek's web site as a homescreen bookmark"
#
aaronpk_ and I already find myself checking your guys' sites occasionally to see whats new
#
tantek but you might want to catch up on someone's site just before meeting up with them
#
tantek or if you miss them and are wondering what they're up to
#
aaronpk_ individually going to tantek.com, werd.io, waterpigs.co.uk, etc. usually not in any sequence, and usually not at the same time
#
tantek OR if they happen to have skype: or IM: or AIM: links on their home page...
#
tantek then their home page becomes the way you can contact them
#
bear with the manifests, you should be able to specify web intents for different contact links
#
aaronpk_ ooh that gives me a neat idea for a browser feature
#
tantek your home page is your communication protocol
#
bear given that we should all have h-card's… sure
#
aaronpk_ the browser should be aware of mailto: tel: sms: etc links on a page and provide those options in a context menu
#
tantek or what if you provided icons for each of those yourself as if they were apps!
#
tantek (in a pane on your home page)
#
bear that would be web intents
#
tantek bear - don't get me started on web intents - it's just plumbing
#
tantek with horrible notions of how UI should wor
#
tantek work
#
bear oops
#
aaronpk_ well the point would be that as the publisher, I don't have to add any infrastructure, just links to my contact info, and the client takes care of it
#
tantek the UI/UX is the key (which the web intents people never figured out - which is why Google dropped it from Chrome - true story)
#
bear marks that in the indieweb must-catch-up-on-past-discussions category
#
tantek like a Contact folder that when tapped would open up a row of icons of the ways you could be contacted, maybe even in your order of preference!
#
bear with push notification of presence and location, that list would be dynamic
#
bear s/would/could/
#
Loqi bear meant to say: with push notification of presence and location, that list could be dynamic
#
tantek.com created /web-intents (+25) "r" (view diff)
#
tantek or even require that you login to do anything other than submit a web form
#
aaronpk_ s/login/identify
#
tantek so if you identify to my site via indieauth.com - and you're someone I want to be able to contact me, then I can present you with a row of icons like (iMessage) (FB Msgr) (G Hangouts)
#
tantek or if you're someone I want to have a phone call with then also present (FaceTime) (Skype)
#
aaronpk_ sweet
#
tantek this is how we disrupt the mobile UI
#
tantek we make it about people, not apps
#
tantek.com edited /Web_intents (-90) "r - mv content to main page" (view diff)
snarfed joined the channel
#
aaronpk_ I wonder if that's a reasonable short-term solution to http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2013/11/canwetalk/
#
tantek aaronpk - it is THE solution
#
tantek screw all this "what should I ..."
#
tantek just share domain names and you're done
#
tantek or even share twitter handles (purely as a faster to speak discovery mechanism for domain names) and you're done
#
tantek each person presents their preferred method(s) of contact on their own home page in order
#
tantek then the person trying to reach them goes down that list until they see something they can (and want) to do and click it
#
aaronpk_ that's great because it leaves a lot of the decision making to people, where people are often better at that kind of thing than computers
#
tantek exactly
#
tantek and that's a big thing that web intents people never got
#
tantek empowering people instead of automating machines
#
aaronpk_ that's a great tagline
#
tantek.com edited /web_intents (+419) "note additional session from 2011, update link, note feedback given about needing to prioritize UI/UX" (view diff)
#
tantek.com edited /icon (+203) "/* Android home screen */ add screenshot of after" (view diff)
#
tantek.com edited /icon (+2) "/* Android home screen */ frameless" (view diff)
#
tommorris tantek: I've been meaning to try and write a 'web dialer' at some point. input URI, it discovers phone number and dials
#
tommorris I also need to bring back my magically-expanding hCard if you log in and I know you
#
tantek tommorris - yes you do (on both accounts)
#
aaronpk_ funny, in the 5 minutes it took me to do this, I encountered more edge cases than expected https://www.dropbox.com/s/29dm3pdfssyrj6s/2013-11-30%2022.50.29.png
#
tantek aaronpk - by "edge cases" do you mean people that haven't setup their site with their own icon?
#
tantek I noted werd.io / idno above
#
aaronpk_ no, more like how I want to identify people
#
aaronpk_ e.g. I think of adactio as adactio jeremy keith, but I think of bret as "bret.io"
#
tantek both sandeep and snarfed have no icon - those are thumbnails of their pages
#
aaronpk_ various combinations of first name, first last, domain, and nickname
#
tantek aaronpk - I figure people can self-identify by setting the <title> of their home page
#
aaronpk_ but sometimes peoples' self-identification is not necessarily how I want to identify them
#
aaronpk_ luckily the ios interface gives you a chance to modify the bookmark name as you create it
#
tommorris.org edited /why (+300) "/* Focusing on the Positive */ adding visual style as a reason" (view diff)
#
tantek aaronpk - but isn't it nicer to identify people as they want to be identified?
#
aaronpk_ (although no way to rename it after it's made as I quickly found out after mis-typing one of them)
#
aaronpk_ i'm not sure, we'll find out I guess
#
snarfed interesting. a lot of discussion backlog to ramp up on here…but it looks like those screenshots are web site bookmarks on ios and android? do they need custom markup to populate the profile pictures? or are they using something standard?
#
tantek I mean, you *call* people by the name they *ask* to be called right?
#
tantek not by the name *you* think of / give them
#
aaronpk_ how I address someone also may differ from how I recall them
#
aaronpk_ so what I have on my home screen is for my consumption, not for them
#
tantek beyond that, full (given family) name seems reasonable
#
tommorris also, any of you tried wordpress.com recently - it now has a Tumblr style dashboard showing you what has been posted by sites you are following
#
snarfed yeah, the wp.com reader. it's been around for a while, but they're definitely pushing hard on it
#
snarfed aha, http://indiewebcamp.com/icon . got it.
#
tantek snarfed - yes!
#
tantek so the idea with red number badges on people's icons is something you could configure - say every time aaronpk posted an article that I hadn't read, I'd like to see a red number increment on his badge so I know to check it
#
aaronpk_ that'd be sweet
#
tantek ok then next step, imagine being able to click a "reply" button on their site and have it auto-launch *your* site with all the context filled in for you to reply
#
tantek (so when you read that previously unread article, you can comment)
#
aaronpk_ well assuming that is ever possible on iOS, it's going to look pretty much like this https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/NetworkingInternet/Conceptual/NotificationProgrammingGuideForWebsites/PushNotifications/PushNotifications.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40013225-CH3-SW1
#
tantek aaronpk - when I try to add your icon - the "i" on the end of your family name is missing
#
tantek (on iOS)
#
aaronpk_ i think that's a character limit of ios home screen icons
#
tantek no because when I add it explicitly it shows up
#
aaronpk_ although the whole thing shows up on my ipad
#
tantek this is on my iPod
#
tantek in the "add to home screen" UI where I can edit your name
#
tantek I'm able to add the missing "i"
#
aaronpk_ thats odd
#
tantek and then it shows up in the icon
#
tantek yeah!
#
tantek that's what I thought
skinny joined the channel
#
tantek is the "add to home screen" UI just truncating your <title>
#
tantek ?
caseorganic joined the channel
#
bear hmm, chrome uses favicon.ico over the jpg ...
#
aaronpk_ it must be, for reasons unknown
#
aaronpk_ and also it didnt on my ipad
#
tantek bear - but I have a favicon.ico - and you got my jpg
#
bear i'm trying to add it to my site and it's behaving differently than yours
#
bear debugging it now
#
aaronpk_ goodnight!
#
Loqi sleep tight!
#
tantek.com edited /icon (+80) "explicitly note URLs that have the icon so you can click and try it" (view diff)
#
tantek.com edited /icon (+3) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ linkfix" (view diff)
#
tantek !tell benwerd hey you should fix your home page icon so it has your personal avatar not just a generic idno icon, per: http://indiewebcamp.com/icon
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
tantek !tell barnabywalters hey you should fix your home page icon so it has your personal avatar not just a generic house icon, per: http://indiewebcamp.com/icon
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
#
tantek tommorris, you should fix your home page icon so it's not just "tom" but at least like your icon here https://twitter.com/tommorris
#
tantek !tell bret hey you should fix your home page icon so it has your personal avatar (like on your Twitter) not just a generic "B" icon, per: http://indiewebcamp.com/icon
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
bear ah - me using a cut-n-paste css/js style meant I was serving a mobile version that I just don't grok
#
tommorris tantek: yep, might do.
#
bear so forcing it to desktop version makes it work - I will have to learn more css/js now
#
tantek ok that'll do for now in terms of indieweb IRC pokes ;)
#
tantek bear - oh dear - so much simpler to just serve one website version
#
bear yes, unless you have negative css/js skills ;)
#
tantek so much nicer to just one click from home screen read people's posts rather than deal with FB news feed (or Twitter noise)
#
tantek EXCEPT
#
tantek aaronpk, I must confess I skim past the "continue…" links
#
tantek it feels like too much work to dive into and dive out of an article
#
tantek just my opinion/impression
#
tantek (from browsing your home page on my ipod)
#
tantek your notes are interesting
#
tantek though I noticed the recent dup!
ryana joined the channel
#
tantek now has a whole row of friendly faces on his iPod touch home screen :)
#
tantek feel so good to prioritize people over apps
#
@Danis_90 @bilalabsurd keterangan harga mah bs di cek di _indieweb.biz_ engke domain bs nu gratis bawaan hosting atau kahayang sorangan (mayar) (twitter.com/_/status/407046890362908672)
ryana and KevinMarks2 joined the channel
#
tantek snarfed, since you've been following the conversation here I figure you're working on your own icon / avatar setup ;)
#
tantek wait when did he disappear?
#
tantek next question: what IndieMark level should include having an icon for yourself on your home page?
#
bear just before webmentions IMO
#
bear because it was easy enough for even me to do, and webmentions is what i'm currently chewing on
#
tantek Level 2 then
#
tantek.com edited /IndieMark (+77) "/* identity */ Level 2 - you gotta have an icon now" (view diff)
ryana joined the channel
#
tantek.com edited /IndieMark (+250) "/* Level 2 */ h-card contact info''' and icon on home page" (view diff)
#
tantek.com edited /IndieMark (+39) "/* Level 2 */ boldings" (view diff)
ryana joined the channel
#
tantek.com edited /icon (+134) "in rough order of implementation of a representative icon" (view diff)
#
tantek.com edited /icon (+1068) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ add adactio, caseorganic, sort iOS only to bottom" (view diff)
#
tantek ok folks, that's four I've counted and wiki'd so far who setup their sites with a avatar of themselves for adding to the homescreens of devices - who will be next? http://indiewebcamp.com/icon#IndieWeb_Examples (do it and add yourself)
#
tantek and on that note I'm off to bed.
#
tantek aaronpk - not sure how to capture the larger brainstorming about the significance of people as home screen icons rather than apps as home screen icons
#
tantek if you figure out an appropriate place to add it please go head
#
tantek (including potential provided by https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/NetworkingInternet/Conceptual/NotificationProgrammingGuideForWebsites/PushNotifications/PushNotifications.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40013225-CH3-SW1 )
#
tantek (and as a way to solve the "Can We Talk?" problem: http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2013/11/canwetalk/ )
KevinMarks2, KartikPrabhu and KevinMarks_ joined the channel
#
@Indiewebhost Tanyakan padaku http://ask.fm/indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/407063134671613952)
#
@ehafen Important for emerging markets for personal data #ownyourdata #datatothepeople https://kindle.amazon.com/post/f4tmmwujQAqcCZ2wrlu_eQ Efficiency is clearly not the o... (twitter.com/_/status/407063421243637760)
KartikPrabhu, KevinMarks_, skinny, andreypopp, brianloveswords, rtaibah, LauraJ, erikmaarten, julien51, tpinto and CheckDavid joined the channel
#
pdurbin KartikPrabhu: I'd say the federation discussion is more around 45:00
#
pdurbin cool, he even mentions "indieweb movement" around 55:00
snarfed, tantek, andreypopp, jonnybarnes, aaronpk_, Nadreck, KevinMarks_ and rtaibah joined the channel
#
@veselinm86 RT @ShaneHudson: I don't mind Google knowing about me, but surely this is a little over ott? I do like the map though! #indieweb http://t.c… (twitter.com/_/status/407216095716986880)
snarfed and andreypopp joined the channel
#
KartikPrabhu pdurbin: 45:00 should be the right time. I was listening to it as I was typing here, so might have been a bit off. They do talk a lot about silos and indieweb on that episode
#
pdurbin the guy on the show seemed pretty cool: https://twitter.com/HenrikJoreteg
#
KartikPrabhu i a sure he is! The Web Ahead does get some very cool web people. Good podcast to follow
andreypopp joined the channel
#
pdurbin KartikPrabhu: any other memorable web people?
#
KartikPrabhu I think #58 was Lea Verou
#
KartikPrabhu #56 was Jeremy Keith
#
KartikPrabhu here is the entire list http://5by5.tv/webahead
#
KartikPrabhu also #46 Tantek Çelik
bnvk joined the channel
#
pdurbin KartikPrabhu: cool. downloading those. thanks. I love Jeremy's http://huffduffer.com
#
KartikPrabhu I have seen huffduffer but not used it yet. I should possibly get on it! :)
#
pdurbin KartikPrabhu: here's me but I'm a pretty light user of it: http://huffduffer.com/philipdurbin
tantek joined the channel
#
KartikPrabhu I am bit confused by http://indiewebcamp.com/icon . Is the idea to have your photo/face as the icon for your website?
andreypopp joined the channel
#
snarfed probably any icon you want, not necessarily your face
#
snarfed just something more identifiable and representative than a thumbnail rendering of the actual page
tantek and brianloveswords joined the channel
#
KartikPrabhu snarfed: I see, i was confused because the examples are all with photos.
#
snarfed yeah, understandable
#
KartikPrabhu aaronpk: I noticed that you have very different images for your website icon and the apple touch icon. Is that advisable? Also, why the double markup for 144.png ?
#
jp whats the correct way to make images responsive e.g. change size depending on users screensize?
#
KartikPrabhu julian`: there is no 'correct way' as in accepted HTML spec for responsive images yet. There are a lot of workarounds. Let me see if I can find a collection
#
KartikPrabhu maybe this: http://css-tricks.com/which-responsive-images-solution-should-you-use/
#
KartikPrabhu also to read the latest status on HTML markup: http://html5doctor.com/responsive-images-end-of-year-report/
#
KartikPrabhu julian`: i personally use a custom javascript to insert the src of the img element. It has its drawbacks but c'est la vie
snarfed, bnvk, bnvk_ and abrereton joined the channel
#
@mysavanna Indieweb principles http://www.wired.com/beyond_the_beyond/2013/12/indieweb-principles/ (twitter.com/_/status/407255990652772352)
KevinMarks_ and tantek joined the channel
#
tantek good afternoon indiewebcamp!
#
KartikPrabhu afternoon!
#
KartikPrabhu does anyone know the support of using svg as favicons?
bnvk joined the channel
#
tantek KartikPrabhu - FF likely supports it ;)
#
tantek huh - I can't seem to find a favicon page on developer.mozilla.org - this is odd
ryana joined the channel
#
KartikPrabhu tantek: also do browsers download favicons in some preference order from source code?
#
KartikPrabhu aaronpk: ignore last question asked to you. just noticed that one is 114 and the other 144!
#
tantek I can't be bothered with different resolutions for a JPG
#
tantek KartikPrabhu - it depends on the browser :/
#
KartikPrabhu tantek: My idea was that it would be best to give one svg to the browsers so that it is scalable. In case the browser does not like svg icons it can use the next one jpg/png. But yeah it seems there is no consistent behaviour for this
#
tantek is still researching
#
pdurbin tantek: I had no idea you worked on IE for the Mac. I'm listening to the http://5by5.tv/webahead/46 since KartikPrabhu recommended it
#
tantek pdurbin, heh - yeah, there's some history ;)
#
pdurbin :)
#
pdurbin history is interesting. I recently listened to http://twit.tv/show/triangulation/128 - "Seymour Rubinstein is a pioneer in the PC software industry who invented WordStar, QuattroPro"
#
KartikPrabhu tantek: I asked this before but you weren't online. Is the http://indiewebcamp.com/icon page saying that one should use author photo/face as icons?
#
tantek I think that's reasonable guidance
#
KartikPrabhu also it seems both aaronparecki.com and caseorganic.com use different images for browser icons and apple touch icons. These seems "bad" (?)
#
tantek KartikPrabhu - well AFAIK there is no devmo documentation for favicon, but hopefully there soon will be - I just filed this bug: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=945041
#
tantek Please feel free to add questions to the bug for now, like you asked above "do browsers download favicons in some preference order from source code?"
scor joined the channel
#
KartikPrabhu sweet! thanks
#
tantek no problem. yes please feel free to add all the favicon related questions or thoughts you mentioned above like SVG vs. jpg/png
abrereton joined the channel
#
tantek re: different images for browser icons and apple touch icons - good question - I suppose the context of the use could make a difference?
#
KartikPrabhu context is a good point. I usually identify sites with their prominent logo. So to me it seems it would be best to have a consistent logo across the board. But this is an interesting UX-type experiment
#
KartikPrabhu funny enough the W3C literature for favicons is from way back in 2005!
barnabywalters joined the channel
#
Loqi barnabywalters: tantek left you a message on 11/30 at 11:21pm: hey you should fix your home page icon so it has your personal avatar not just a generic house icon, per: http://indiewebcamp.com/icon
snarfed joined the channel
#
barnabywalters tantek: good idea!
#
KartikPrabhu barnabywalters: just had a look at your source code. How are you serving icons without the rel="icon" markup?
#
barnabywalters KartikPrabhu: both favicon.ico and the various apple-touch-icon-* files can be served via well-known URLs (i.e. put a file in the right place and it’ll be found), and so far I have been lazy and just used those
#
KartikPrabhu aah i see. had forgotten about that caveat!
#
barnabywalters but well-known URLs are generally indicative of bad design, so I’ll be adding real markup
#
barnabywalters sucks that yet more stupid meta tags are required for android though :/
#
KartikPrabhu yeah. Some one should get on standarising this favicon stuff
#
barnabywalters any thoughts on using <meta content="http-equiv" content="x-mobile-web-app-capable: yes" /> instead of the completely proprietary meta tag?
#
barnabywalters at least that way it can be served as a HTTP header
#
barnabywalters in HEAD requests
#
barnabywalters but that’s pretty ugly too
#
tantek but why is it even needed in the first place?
#
KartikPrabhu why not just have a multiple rel="icon" links, and browsers can choose the best one in source order?
#
tantek WTF does "mobile-web-app-capable" even mean?!?
#
tantek shouldn't the default be YES ?
#
barnabywalters tantek: what’s the effect for the end user? that it goes on the homescreen rather than in a bookmark’s menu?
#
KartikPrabhu tantek: agreed
#
tantek barnabywalters - yeah
#
barnabywalters that should be the users choice
#
barnabywalters or, there should be no difference
#
barnabywalters iOS lets you choose
#
tantek so it's pretty dumb mechanism for that
#
tantek no kidding
#
tantek right
#
barnabywalters so that’s pretty ignorable. I’ll wait until someone actually requests it before adding it to my site
#
tantek.com edited /icon (+743) "/* FAQ */ Should you use a photo of your face as your icon? Yes." (view diff)
#
tantek KartikPrabhu - here's some more reading for you ;) http://indiewebcamp.com/icon#Should_you_use_a_photo_of_your_face
#
KartikPrabhu lol was just reading it
lukebrooker joined the channel
#
KartikPrabhu btw: on the indiewebcamp wiki, when i see revisions why doesn't the title link back to the live page?
#
barnabywalters KartikPrabhu: that has irritated me in the past too — perhaps mediawiki can be persuaded to link
#
KartikPrabhu good. so it isn't just me tapping the touch pad vigorously while nothign happens
#
tantek the title link?
#
barnabywalters tantek: yeah, as in “Icon” in the previous one
#
barnabywalters it’s enticingly blue but does nothing when clicked
#
tantek in IRC?
#
barnabywalters tantek: no, in mediawiki
#
tantek.com edited /icon (+541) "/* FAQ */ Should I just use well known URLs" (view diff)
#
tantek barnabywalters - ah I see - if you click the revision link
#
tantek I think the blue page title is a remnant of the page styling
#
tantek it's still blue (unlinked) even if you're actually on the page itself
#
barnabywalters ah I see
#
KartikPrabhu ok. updated using a multiple link rel="icon" markup for icons with svg first and png second on http://kartikprabhu.com . Same for apple-touch-icon.
#
KartikPrabhu tantek: only site logo for now. might have to find a icon-worthy face shot ;)
#
tantek KartikPrabhu - well you chose an apparently icon-worthy face shot for your G+ https://plus.google.com/+KartikPrabhu/posts
#
tantek why give G+ a better experience than your own site?
#
KartikPrabhu true. but it doesn't have an actual face now does it!?
#
KartikPrabhu actually even Google does not recognise it as a face for it authorship thingy
#
tantek that requires some rel=author and rel=me linking up
#
tantek your posts need to all link to your home page with rel=author
#
barnabywalters well, I suppose that’s a valid use of advanced facial recognition software…
#
tantek and your home page needs to link to your G+ profile with rel=me
#
barnabywalters assuming you do indeed mean that google don’t consider it face-like enough to use as an authorship photo?
#
KartikPrabhu i have those up. as barnabywalters said, it looks for actual faces using face recognition
#
barnabywalters wow. when did google get boring?
#
barnabywalters although, I suppose there is a legitimate benefit to enforcing faces alongside articles
#
barnabywalters still seems a little extreme, if people choose to identify themselves in other ways
#
tantek hmm - you have a bunch of <link rel="author me"> in your home page <head> which may be confusing Google's parsers
#
tantek also it's incorrect to link from your post permalinks to your home page with rel="me" - as your posts themselves are not proxies for *you*
#
barnabywalters I do that too currently. fixing in new version of taproot
#
tantek it looks like very page on http://kartikprabhu.com emits the same <link rel…> elements which is probably what is screwing up google
#
tantek permalinks should *only* have rel=author to your home page
#
tantek and your home page should *only* have rel=me to your G+ profile
#
tantek I mean you can have other rel=me obv
#
tantek but the link to your G+ profile should only have rel=me on it. not rel="me author"
#
KartikPrabhu tantek: point taken. will fix soon. Thanks for the suggestions.
#
tantek barnabywalters - it's a good reason to have different templates for home page and permalink pages
thatryana joined the channel
#
barnabywalters tantek: point taken, but they are completely different issues :)
#
barnabywalters template reuse can make for DRYer markup but also amplify bad markup
melvster, scor, paulcp, skinny and KartikPrabhu joined the channel
#
tantek barnabywalters - I'm still seeing a black & white house icon for your home page
#
tantek did you update it? (also noticed no markup changes on your home page yet - was wondering if you were going to stick with the well known URLs for icons or use explicit rel markup)
#
Loqi [mention] https://bear.im/bearlog/2013/325/indiewebify-and-the-new-site.html linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
#
barnabywalters tantek: working on other things at the mo — having someone actively pester me about it is moving it up my priority ladder a little though ;)
#
tantek it's the bar right now for me personally to add it as an icon to my mobile home screen :)
#
tantek so far all I have is adactio, aaronpk, caseorganic
#
barnabywalters currently finishing off the mention sending/storing functionality in new taproot
#
tantek oooh
#
tantek that sounds pretty awesome
#
barnabywalters hopefully it’ll make it *way* easier for me to support different kinds of mentions to different types of posts
KevinMarks_ joined the channel
#
barnabywalters just need to test webmention sending and then I’m on the icon thing
#
tantek nice
#
bear woo \o/ i think i wired up webmentions
#
Loqi [mention] http://waterpigs.co.uk linked to http://indiewebcamp.com (pingback)
#
tantek bear from ^^^ (several lines up) I'd say you did
#
bear is happy
#
barnabywalters bear: nice work!
#
tantek :)
#
bear using my python tool
#
tantek indeed! nicely done!
#
tantek bear - and now that we have a python microformats parser you can do things like reply-contexts too!
#
tantek btw speaking of which - out of curiosity how are you doing webmention endpoint discovery?
#
tantek barnabywalters, when you're out of the depths of the code and up for looking at some higher level ideas / aspirations, take a look at https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-11-30#t1385879274
#
KartikPrabhu bear: what python tool are you using?
thatryana joined the channel
#
bear I wrote a small set of functions and a flask/uwsgi listener for webmentions
#
bear when my routine requests a mention to be made, it pulls the page and searches for the rel link like the spec calls for
#
Loqi [mention] http://waterpigs.co.uk linked to http://indiewebcamp.com (pingback)
#
tantek bear, curious if you were actually parsing for rel values, or using a regex, and either way, if you were supporting both "webmention" and the URL form.
#
bear i'm using beautifulsoup4 to return all link items
#
bear and them grabbing the attributes and checking for text
#
tantek nice
#
Loqi [mention] http://waterpigs.co.uk linked to http://indiewebcamp.com (pingback)
#
tantek sounds pretty clean!
#
KartikPrabhu bear: auto-sending mentions is next on my list. i was also looking at beautiful soup for that
#
tantek bear, do you also check HTTP Link headers?
#
bear I have it on github, let me push the latest
#
tantek bear, BTW, add yourself to the end of this list ;) http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#IndieWeb_implementations
#
bear @tantek - yes
#
tantek very cool
#
bear https://github.com/bear/ronkyuu
#
bear very first draft and hackish code
#
bear a lot of wink-wink-to-be-done-soon stuff
#
Loqi [mention] http://waterpigs.co.uk linked to http://indiewebcamp.com (pingback)
#
tantek still, ronkyuu is definitely deserving of being added to http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#Libraries
#
KartikPrabhu bear: maybe you have seen this one: https://github.com/vrypan/webmention-tools
#
bear the stumbling block for me is that I don't have a cms like publishing tool (yet)
#
bear yes, I looked at vrypan and considered it, but this is a learning process for me so I broke the NIH rule
#
KartikPrabhu of course!
#
Loqi [mention] http://waterpigs.co.uk linked to http://indiewebcamp.com (webmention)
#
barnabywalters excellent — proper rel=webmention w/ BC implemented instead of the nasty pingback-like regexes I was using
#
barnabywalters tantek: RE home screen of faces, that sounds doable
#
tantek barnabywalters - indeed, and I'm thinking through some of the bigger implications of it too.
#
barnabywalters reminds me of the prototyping works chris messina did for mozilla a while back
#
tantek if we're able to think: people first, then method of contact second
#
barnabywalters the UI for that revolved around a line/grid of faces
#
barnabywalters kinda like the wonderfully designed phones for elderly people which just have a four or five buttons with names+faces — press the name to call
#
barnabywalters http://factoryjoe.com/social-agent/
#
tantek right - but all of that was pre-mobile-centric-design
#
bear.im edited /webmention (+280) "/* IndieWeb implementations */" (view diff)
#
tantek and I think the mobile shift was what was needed to change perspectives
#
tantek barnabywalters - ironically none of the posts in Chris's social-agent series have a page of faces
#
tantek they're all brand / service / company focused