#indiewebcamp 2014-01-03

2014-01-03 UTC
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tantek snarfed - I think by the statement she meant that for her purposes, she built Twitter.
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tantek or at least the original Twitter - which was "just" a note posting site.
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tantek or feature
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snarfed right
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tantek and I think that framing is totally reasonable
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tantek for anyone to say "I built Twitter" means the 2006 version of Twitter - that's a perfectly fine bar for indieweb sites
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tantek and hence I'm challenging the folks who have been here for a year or more to do so :)
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snarfed i guess. the vision and challenge, definitely, i'm there
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snarfed the article intro…eh. i guess it just didn't work for me. to the average reader, it's such an overstatement, and so context-free, that the confusion detracts from her message
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snarfed but maybe her regular readers will be more used to it
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tantek I think it's reasonable to ask those of us who have been talking the talk for over a year to walk the walk of tweeting from/at their own website
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snarfed definitely! it just took me a while to understand that meaning, and i've been hanging around indieweb for a while.
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snarfed anyway. i'll stop picking nits :P
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tantek heh. and she was at the very first IndieWebCamp in 2011 in Portland!
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tantek as adactio's apprentice even
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bret …Cat Bush. Lol http://chloeweil.com/note?id=411971182594760704
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tantek awesome
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bret yeah she did a really good job on her site
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tantek.com created /events/2013-11-20-homebrew-website-club (+215) "stub and notes on how to backfill this page" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /events/2014-01-15-homebrew-website-club (+344) "add Previously section" (view diff)
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tantek so far we have three folks publishing indie events posts: http://indiewebcamp.com/event
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tantek is anyone else considering this or working on it? I am, but the design and coding has been taking me longer than expected. My notes so far: http://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon#event_posts
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tantek but just like we have text note fallbacks for RSVPs (which I do implement), has anyone considered text note fallbacks for event posts?
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tantek especially with invitations?
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tantek I think benwerd did invitations in one of his events but I can't find it: http://indiewebcamp.com/event#Invitations
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benwerd tantek: http://werd.io/2013/an-indieweb-catchup-over-food-and-drink
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tantek I think in a text note equivalent could just use cc: @… etc.
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tantek.com edited /event (+131) "add benwerd example with invitations" (view diff)
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@shawnokeefe RT @t: Easy #indieweb 2014 resolution: Post more on your site than Twitter, FB, etc. Like @neilhimself http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2013/12/where-did-i-go-out-what-did-i-do.html (ttk.me t4Ts3) (twitter.com/_/status/418904646480973827)
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the_merlin oh hey! hello benwerd
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benwerd howdy! :)
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the_merlin so I'm a tad confused - took a look at the site and it looks like it's for one specific event, but you're advertising other events (including the homebrew website meetup) on the same site?
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the_merlin ^ tantek perhaps?
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benwerd indiewebcamp.com is really (has become?) an umbrella site for the whole indieweb community, rather as well as the thematic events
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benwerd kind of the wikipedia of indieweb
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benwerd down to this conversation already being in it.
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tantek "wikipedia of the indieweb" :)
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tantek the_merlin - there are event-specific pages on the site yes
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tantek and then it links to pages of a more general sort
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tantek on the broader indieweb topic
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tantek.com edited /event (+1460) "/* Design Brainstorming */ add a POSSE section with some thoughts on where and how to POSSE" (view diff)
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tantek tommorris - does OSM have a field for venues for a Twitter account that is *unique* for that venue?
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@mcepl Don’t you know how to archive messages from Google Groups? http://luther.ceplovi.cz/blog/2014/01/scrapping-of-the-google-groups/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/418907792150237184)
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tantek 1:1 correspondence that is
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the_merlin ah-haaaa thanks for the infoes :)
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bret the_merlin, how did you make your way here?
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tantek tommorris - e.g. @MozSF is unique for the Mozilla *San Francisco* office
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tantek as is @MozPDX for the Mozilla Portland office
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tantek but for example @PapaloteSalsa has two locations and thus wouldn't qualify / work for this.
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tantek just wondering if OSM has solved this problem or not (e.g. with custom tags/fields), and if not, considering trying to solve it
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the_merlin bret: tantek shot me a link to the homebrew website event
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bret right on :) welcome and you should totally come, its fun!
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the_merlin danke! I'll try!
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@teamidno Idno will be at the Homebrew Website Club at Mozilla on January 15th. You should come too! http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-01-15-homebrew-website-club #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/418912563699519489)
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Loqi [mention] http://hello.idno.co/2014/idno-will-be-at-the-homebrew-website-club-at-mozilla linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-01-15-homebrew-website-club (pingback)
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tantek nice!
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aaronpk oo new site http://hello.idno.co/
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bret no way, is that going to be a multi-user idno powered website?
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tantek I would suspect as much
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rkn.la edited /events/2014-01-15-homebrew-website-club (+82) "/* RSVP */ rknLA" (view diff)
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tantek Hmm - I would have expected this to be an RSVP post: http://hello.idno.co/2014/idno-will-be-at-the-homebrew-website-club-at-mozilla (but it looks just like a note)
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rkn.la created /User:Rkn.la (+14) "Created page with "http://rkn.la/"" (view diff)
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benwerd tantek: point taken - you're right, I didn't use an RSVP when I should have
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benwerd aaronpk: yes it is, once I've implemented & integrated IndieAuth
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tantek benwerd - well, it's an interesting data point it is
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tantek I'm thinking UI flow details
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tantek was there just barely too much cognitive load to think to switch it from a note to an RSVP that it didn't happen?
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tantek I wonder if need to some sort of eventiness detection of notes and then further detect whether it is an event or an RSVP post and then offer to switch the type accordingly
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aaronpk tantek: my UI does exactly that :)
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tantek benwerd - whoa the URL is invisible until I hover over it: http://hello.idno.co/2014/idno-will-be-at-the-homebrew-website-club-at-mozilla
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benwerd yeah, I'm mucking about with the CSS
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tantek aaronpk - WHOA that is cool. Definitely need a screenshot or something of that.
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benwerd if you hard refresh that should go away
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aaronpk it's pretty subtle in the UI, but works well
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benwerd aaronpk: that is super-neat
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tantek a-ha - that potentially makes it even easier
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aaronpk it parses the reply URL and looks for an h-event and if it finds one, sets the type to an rsvp and prompts me to select yes/no/maybe/other
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tantek if the page is about an event (e.g. top level microformat is just one h-event) then that could be used to imply event/RSVP post
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tantek aaronpk - you beat me to it!
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tantek that's awesome
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benwerd I do that with my Firefox Social API stuff, but not with the main UI, which is silly. Nice work! Will try and catch up tonight
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tantek.com edited /rsvp (+263) "/* Aaron Parecki */ note implementation of autosuggest for RSVPs (as noted in IRC)" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk - is this about right? want to add any more details? http://indiewebcamp.com/rsvp#autosuggest
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aaronpk that about sums it up!
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tantek aaronpk - do you have to explicitly choose "reply" in your UI? Or if you just happen to paste in a URL to an event into a note does p3k handle that too?
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aaronpk there's no "post type" option if that's what you mean. There's a field for the reply URL, and if there is nothing there, then it's a note. otherwise it's a reply or RSVP
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tantek ok so p3k does not try to parse a URL in the note field then? only in the reply URL field?
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aaronpk interestingly, since i'm almost done with my indieauth todo list (http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-12-30/line/1388444098) I will actually be able to allow others to sign in to p3k and use my posting interface to create content on their own site
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aaronpk tantek: correct, no parsing of URLs in the note field
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tantek in that case - not sure that would have helped benwerd - as it looks like he just pasted the event URL into the one text field
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aaronpk ah! right, his wasn't a reply
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tantek the extra overhead of having to think that it's a reply might sometimes be just too much for someone to remember to do
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bret looks like your writing a reply /clippy
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tantek especially since RSVP == a "reply" is not totally obvious to the non-French speaking ;)
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aaronpk hah I didn't even think about that
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aaronpk actually that brings up an interesting thing I"ve been struggling with too
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tantek bookmarks? ;)
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tantek.com edited /rsvp (-9) "/* autosuggest */ upgrades replies" (view diff)
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aaronpk sometimes I've felt awkward posting an RSVP as a reply, such as in benwerd's case, he was really posting a note about the event which happened to say he was going
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bret bbl
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@t @chloeweil well deserved! Long way since @indiewebcamp 2011. For 2014 add @-replies to your site like this ... http://tantek.com/2014/002/t5/add-replies-your-site (twitter.com/_/status/418919612173266944)
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tantek aaronpk - how is "a note about the event which happened to say he was going" not an RSVP?
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tantek physical RSVPs were actual notes that people sent about an event
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tantek in fact, many (most?) wedding RSVPs are still notes
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aaronpk weirdest restriction on a username: "It cannot contain nine or more numbers."
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tantek wow!
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tantek which site?
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aaronpk wells fargo
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tantek oh - to prevent use of phone numbers?
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aaronpk ah!
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tantek or prevent use of account number as username
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aaronpk both of those seem likely
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aaronpk same restriction on the password
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tantek I'm willing to bet people were trying to create user names with their account numbers not realizing that's a huge security risk
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KevinMarks Wells Fargo used to require you to use your social security number as username
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aaronpk lol oh yeah I remember that... some other bank I used to use did that too
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KevinMarks So they may be trying to stop that now
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tantek.com edited /reply-context (+17) "/* See Also */ webmention" (view diff)
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tantek welcome back Loqi
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Loqi who, me?
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aaronpk fascinating time capsule http://homescreen2014.tumblr.com/
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aaronpk i want to archive all those so I have them after tumblr is gone
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tantek.com edited /reply-context (+141) "Notifications webmention" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /reply-context (-5) "/* Notifications */" (view diff)
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tantek interesting that chloe is using Twitter status ids for her permalinks
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tantek on replies
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tantek e.g. see the reply-context here: http://tantek.com/2014/002/t6/next-suggest-reply-contexts-webmention
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tantek hmm - why didn't Loqi get that tweet? https://twitter.com/t/status/418934460051382272
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Loqi https://twitter.com/t :: @chloeweil a-ha you do have replies! Awesome!
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tantek mentioned both indiewebcamp and webmention ;)
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@t @chloeweil a-ha you do have replies! Awesome! Next may I suggest reply-contexts and webmention http://indiewebcamp.com/reply-context (ttk.me t4Ts6) (twitter.com/_/status/418934460051382272)
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@djp1974 RT @t: Easy #indieweb 2014 resolution: Post more on your site than Twitter, FB, etc. Like @neilhimself http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2013/12/where-did-i-go-out-what-did-i-do.html (ttk.me t4Ts3) (twitter.com/_/status/418943082076184576)
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poppy that was my resolution 2 years ago
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poppy turns out i just stopped putting things on the internet for the most part
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aaronpk this post http://aaron.pk/m4Tsvp5 was created from my new indieauth-enabled iphone app! https://github.com/aaronpk/PushupCounter-iOS
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snarfed oh wow, nice!
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aaronpk it's coming together!
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@kartik_prabhu #Memory: I was once accused of not having a web-presence 'coz I didn't have an account on #Orkut! #Irony: Posted on #Twitter #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/419006355572129792)
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@Brironic @aaronpk I don't think StackOverflow supports OpenID 1. Will IndieAuth support OpenID2? (twitter.com/_/status/419010244522430464)
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@aaronpk @Brironic I'm able to sign in to stackoverflow just fine, did you encounter an issue with it? #indieauth (http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2014/01/02/1/indieauth) (twitter.com/_/status/419011792866508800)
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Loqi [mention] http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2014/01/02/2/indieauth linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC (webmention)
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@aaronpk @Brironic Now I'm confused. Are you on IRC? Might be easier to continue the discussion there... http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2014/01/02/2/indieauth (twitter.com/_/status/419013299036901376)
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Loqi [mention] http://christopheducamp.com/b/2014-01-03/lifelog-decouverte-de-dayone/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieMark#Level_1 (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://christopheducamp.com/b/2014-01-03/lifelog-decouverte-de-dayone/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/note-fr (pingback)
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@kevinmarks @anildash @waxpancake @xuhulk @t and @benwerd and @aaronpk are RSVP conf http://indiewebcamp.com/rsvp (twitter.com/_/status/419149438183931904)
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tantek that thread is getting pretty hilarious
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barnabywalters csvconf.com not transmitted as text/csv
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barnabywalters dr
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tantek barnabywalters - I don't see any mediatype information: http://web-sniffer.net/?url=http%3A//csvconf.com/
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barnabywalters perhaps not, but they’ve included a <style> element in the body
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barnabywalters so the source isn’t actually csv whatever the media type
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tantek oh I didn't view source. odd.
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barnabywalters didn’t know about web-sniffer.net, that’s handy
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tantek maybe that's their hack for sending CSVs to browsers - just append that inline style sheet at the server when sending the file
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tantek too bad csv doesn't have a comment syntax that could comment out the style sheet ;)
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tantek (from csv parsers)
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tantek barnabywalters - even more handy than web-sniffer.net is the one-click favelet for it that I wrote:
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tantek barnabywalters see: favelets.com
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tantek under Learning / HTTP in the column
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barnabywalters got it
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barnabywalters DHTML! there’s a term you don’t often hear
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tantek barnabywalters - indeed, I've left the deliberately dated copy there. page/site was created in 2001-09-07.
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tantek (history at bottom)
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barnabywalters that’s a nice little blob of history
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ShaneHudson Talking about history... what do you all think of changing design for old content? I know the bbc, tantek and zeldman all do a good job of keeping the old designs active for old content
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ShaneHudson Should I attempt to do that, bearing in mind I'm using Wordpress?
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tantek ShaneHudson - I used to - since 2010 the designs have been mixed
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tantek since the style sheets were snapshotted to the year, but the markup is now all "live" generated by the latest Falcon
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tantek which has often required backcopying current year style sheets to previous years
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tantek I haven't figured out a system for year-specific style sheets and templates - though it's theoretically possible.
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tantek (and that's the direction Falcon is heading in)
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ShaneHudson Mine wouldn't be so much year based as use this theme for the dates between this and this, use current for others
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tantek well year-based is just one case of " use this theme for the dates between this and this"
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ShaneHudson Not sure if there is any point, but I like keeping a good archive
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ShaneHudson yeah true
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tantek and the simplest to build (for me and my permalink structure)
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tantek I used to change my "themes" monthly for a while
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Loqi [mention] http://christopheducamp.com/b/2014-01-03/lifelog-decouverte-de-dayone/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieMark#Level_1 (pingback)
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tantek selfdogfooding various bits of CSS as we worked on the specs and browser implementations for them
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Loqi [mention] http://christopheducamp.com/b/2014-01-03/lifelog-decouverte-de-dayone/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/note-fr (pingback)
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barnabywalters tantek: “theme” referring to CSS+JS+HTML?
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tantek yeah
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ShaneHudson Oh right, that makes sense :) I'm thinking about redoing mine in flexbox but I might wait a few months before I do a major overhaul on design
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tantek though the markup was reasonably stable
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snarfed ShaneHudson: fwiw, each time i've migrated servers/designs, i've applied the new design to old posts, and i'm always glad i did later
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tantek part of the challenge was to keep changing the CSS while the markup stayed the same
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ShaneHudson currently focusing on content and content navigation, currently mine is awful for that
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tantek the opposite is much harder
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tantek keeping the CSS the same while changing the markup
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ShaneHudson Yeah, since I am using Wordpress that isn't so much of a problem as the theme handles the markup and style, I would do a major change in a new theme
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ShaneHudson Though not actually tried it to see if it is possible to use both haha
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snarfed yeah. plus, you want to expect to change server software every ~5y or so, and designs maybe more often, which means you'd end up maintaining N old designs
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Loqi hahahaha
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snarfed not sustainable
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ShaneHudson yeah that's true
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snarfed plus, when i've changed things, i usually like the new design better anyway, so i kinda want it to apply to old posts too
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tantek snarfed, the "server software every ~5y or so" is an interesting wrinkle
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ShaneHudson I've been planning to move to Ghost but better off staying on Wordpress for now since I know it so well and don't have much time
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tantek you could always export static pages for your current software before switching to the new
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ShaneHudson Still want to get web mentions working, never fixed the problem I had trying to make the plugin
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snarfed tantek: yup! i actually started out keeping posts in text files in version control with a little html and markdown, and that's survived pretty much intact across three very different servers
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tantek snarfed - re: "apply to old posts too" to me the look & feel of the old post has so many associative memories with it, like the cover/style of an old book, that I prefer to keep the old styles.
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snarfed (post details https://github.com/snarfed/snarfed.org
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tantek cool
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snarfed …similar to everyone's)
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snarfed tantek: definitely understood. glad we each get to make the choice ourselves! :P
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tantek snarfed - ideally I'd like to provide *both*
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snarfed ShaneHudson: definitely! are you using pfefferle's? i'm on an old version, but i might be able to help
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tantek the originally published styling, and whatever "current" styling I'm using
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snarfed tantek: ahhhh great idea. i keep old screenshots for the same reason, but fully usable old styles would be even better
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barnabywalters well, with microformats+HTML templates and archives of CSS that could be quite easy…
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tantek I'd provide the old style for direct permalink access - to me permalinks are way of linking to the past.
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barnabywalters provided all your previous content was marked up with microformats
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snarfed right! my old ones were tied up with the server software, but using (or exporting to) pure html/css is easier
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barnabywalters just parse the older version and render it into the latest version
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tantek and then whenever the posts showed up in list views (search results etc.), new style (and if you clicked through also)
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tantek with then an option to view the post as originally published.
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tantek barnabywalters - that's exactly the approach I'm taking with Falcon and my pre-Falcon blog archives :)
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barnabywalters tantek: cool! really looking forward to seeing that in action
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tantek me too :)
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tantek in the theme of "what am I still (or more) using FB for" and more far off future indieweb thoughts - anyone have any ideas about the indieweb equivalent of "Group" pages?
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tantek it's easy to say, oh that should just be a business opportunity for an aggregator, and you can post on your own site and webmention to send it to the group.
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tantek but I'm also thinking about not wanting to lose all the content in groups I'm part of, not just the stuff I personally post.
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barnabywalters so, is a group a shared tag?
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tantek I think that could be a good start
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tantek group posts are often group-only readable
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tantek so there's issues of ACLs
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tantek or even *delegated* ACLs
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barnabywalters but then you have joining and moderation stuff, which is difficult
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tantek i.e. I post something semi-private that I say anyone in this "group" can see, including people that join the group in the future.
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barnabywalters tantek: in what case have you wanted to do that?
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tantek I was just copying a URL :)
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tantek and noticing that it looks like everything in group is public. interesting.
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tantek oh *except* for photos!
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tantek which I think require either login or membership to see - and otherwise you get the broken image icon and alt text!
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tantek https://www.facebook.com/NovemberProjectSF
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tantek oh nm - just image loading problems. ctrl-reloading the specific images seems to fix them.
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barnabywalters so in this case (wanting to post something to a group which is public to anyone who looks at the group) the actual desired effect is for it *not
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barnabywalters s/*not/not to be visible in listings on your own site
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Loqi barnabywalters meant to say: so in this case (wanting to post something to a group which is public to anyone who looks at the group) the actual desired effect is for it not to be visible in listings on your own site
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barnabywalters apart (maybe?) from people logged in to your site who are also in the group
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tantek I'm not sure about that either
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tantek posting to a group is kind of like an @-reply in that regard
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tantek rather, posting to a *public* group
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tantek you may want it sometimes visible on your own site
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tantek even Twitter has the "All" and "No replies" links/switches on profile pages
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barnabywalters it’s often nice for outsiders to be able to see that kind of stuff, so that they can become insiders if they want
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tantek I show @-replies on my home stream, others do not
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barnabywalters unless it gets overbearing
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barnabywalters and clutters up your “main” stream
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tantek right, depends on how you use @-replies, too heavily and you get clutter
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tantek it looks like noise to those not in the conversation
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benwerd Waking up on this: there are ad-hoc groups (eg hashtags) and explicit groups (eg forums). My take on the latter is for someone to be the "host" of the group, and allow others to log into it / post from their own interfaces using applicable APIs like the one aaronpk's been working on.
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barnabywalters equally, if people can’t see the conversation they can’t join in, which can be abad thing
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tantek and I do admit my own practice of always showing all my @-replies makes me consider the public viewing context when writing replies
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benwerd The former really needs some kind of search
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barnabywalters tantek: likewise
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barnabywalters benwerd: like a indiewebcamp.com/commons?
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tantek barnabywalters - although in general I think I've adopted that mindset - even in public mailing lists where only a few people "normally" see it - I expect that anyone anytime could cite a public URL
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tantek so anyone *could* read a public "group" post, so you have to assume anyone may
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tantek even if it doesn't show up in everyone's streams realtime
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barnabywalters tantek: to a certain extent that even applies to private content, depending on whether or not you trust the recipient(s) not to copy/paste private content into a public area
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tantek benwerd - the "someone to be the "host" of the group" feels problematic too though
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benwerd barnabywalters: not sure. naively kind of wish that PuSH had a history feature, so you could "scroll back" on anything that had been pushed to a hub
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barnabywalters benwerd: rel=prev on a h-feed?
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benwerd tantek - depends on the context, I think. agree that in some cases it's problematic, but eg, if I'm hosting a group to plan a party, that's probably ok
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tantek barnabywalters - yes - to a certain extent. However, then you can speak with the context that if a private recipient does propagate it, they may incur some personal social consequences for doing so.
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tantek benwerd - it works for personal events yes
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tantek I don't think it works for community things
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barnabywalters point is, security is a computer problem, privacy is a human problem
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benwerd tantek - agree, and here we're getting into the realm of group ownership / distributed responsibility, which is interesting in itself
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tantek barnabywalters - heh, most security problems these days turn out to be human interface problems ;)
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barnabywalters with all the fuzziness and inconsistency that carries with it
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barnabywalters tantek: heh, true
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tantek benwerd - re: "realm of group ownership / distributed responsibility, which is interesting in itself" sure - it can be "interesting", or we can just copy the UX models of successful group hosting silos - e.g. FB
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benwerd not just for groups but for anything. "these people can post to / edit / change rights on this feed"
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tantek that's the point, we don't have to reinvent the UIs for this stuff
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tantek but if we came up with simple "indie groups" that worked close enough to how FB groups work - we (and others) could easily use them with minimal cognitive overload / dissonance.
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tantek I'm using FB groups as a "good example" in contrast to say G+ Communities, or Google Groups, or other examples of bad group UI
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benwerd tantek - totally agree, but there's still the added case of where the content lives (which is what I meant by "hosted" - it's stored on one person's server in that case). that's what I mean by the interesting part.
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tantek benwerd - I think the question you're asking is, where is the canonical copy of the conent
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tantek content
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benwerd exactly that
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tantek because of course this is all copied back/forth from personal permalinks via webmention ;)
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benwerd right, totally. but does the canonical copy live on the site that created the group, or ..?
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barnabywalters so the closest thing we have to this at the moment is probably indienews
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tantek barnabywalters - I'd rather reverse engineer a working UI (e.g. FB Groups) than try to incrementally build up from something that doesn't work like a group.
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tantek benwerd - the indie answer to the "canonical" copy is whoever created that particular piece of content
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tantek yet for my own purposes, just like we're talking about having personal indie readers, I want personal indie groups that live on my site as copies of the group activity happening elsewhere on others' sites
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barnabywalters tantek: was referring to the canonical copy thing, where on indienews it’s the creator’s copy
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barnabywalters off for sushi, bbiab
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tantek I don't want to go to a different site to do "group" things, just like I don't want to go to a different site to do "reading"
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benwerd right, so if I create a group, it lives on werd.io or wherever I chose to create it. I can then allow other people access not just to post to it, but also to invite other people and (eg) add other people as admins so they can change its behavior. copies can exist, and members interact on their own sites, but they're always pinging back to that original version
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benwerd definitely agree. it shows up in your own space, you interact with it on your own terms.
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tantek benwerd - well we're talking about two different things there
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tantek creating a group vs. joining a group
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tantek it's "joining a group" that to me resembles the indie reader use case
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tantek where I want to be able to interact with a group without having to visit wherever the group happened to have been created
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benwerd I totally get you, and agree. I just also think that, for example, FB groups are made more valuable by those other membership activities. I'd argue that posting, joining and inviting should all be possible in your own reader interface. Ideally administering and toggling membership permissions (if you have the ability), too.
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tantek I think the URL that the canonical group lives at is important
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tantek the domain that is
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tantek and not having to have that be a personal domain
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tantek and yet - there's the problem of shutdown vulnerability
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benwerd so you could have sites that are *just* groups. would make sense
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benwerd you could sling one up for a conference, for example.
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tantek I think admins for such "indie groups" must have another ability given to them, the ability to recreate the canonical URL of the group, from their own indie copy of the group
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benwerd effectively reposting / repointing a group
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tantek so an admin of an indie group would commit to always have a copy of everything in the group, copied to their own indie domain
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benwerd makes sense for all indie content too: being able to say, "hey, this object now lives over here"
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tantek well I'm not sure I want to generalize to that
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benwerd and have references in users' reader interfaces adapt accordingly
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tantek as that's much harder general problem
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tantek which is why I'd prefer to scope it to just the group problem and see if it's possible to even solve it for that
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benwerd right, but it seems like if we can make the mechanism for groups, we can walk back to the general case
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benwerd they're not unrelated
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tantek we may be able to yes
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tantek I'd just like to avoid it as an initial constraint/consideration
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benwerd nods
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benwerd makes sense
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tantek groups are hard. they're the main reason that Messina proposed the hashtag in the first place.
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benwerd Yes. I've built them a bunch of different ways, and don't particularly like any of them.
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pdurbin tantek: what do you like about facebook groups vs. google groups and google+ communities?
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tantek even FB has *two* ways of doing groups
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tantek pdurbin - google groups is a disaster of a UI - I'm sorry if that's not obvious I don't want to waste any time on it (it's that bad)
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pdurbin yeah, a disaster. I agree
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tantek google+ communities are mostly slow as crap (bad JS devs), and super bulky / spacey in design (wasteful)
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tantek actually most of G+ is slow as crap
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tantek and I mean in relative terms - compared to FB
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tantek regardless of browser, device, etc.
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pdurbin hmm, I mostly used google+ from my phone. and communities seem fine. I'm not a big fan of the non-mobile UI for google+
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tantek right they had to write a non-web-app because they couldn't figure out how to build an efficient web experience
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pdurbin I don't use facebook much... only have a fake account... haven't tried their groups feature
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tantek OTOH the FB mobile site is incredibly efficient and effective (even better than their iOS app)
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tantek I resisted using FB groups out of principle, but when I saw how easily so many people are able to interact with them, and with high signal to noise, then it made me take notice.
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tantek both FB actual "groups" and "pages" work like groups - different flavors
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pdurbin tantek: have an example of a facebook group you like? maybe something with a tech focus?
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tantek nothing with a tech focus no
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tantek it's the non-tech groups that I've found interesting - appealing to a more diverse set of folks with differing interaction expectations
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pdurbin any public groups? or do they all require logging into facebook?
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tantek I posted one earlier
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tantek https://www.facebook.com/NovemberProjectSF
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pdurbin scrolls
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pdurbin "free hugs"
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tantek oh but the price is high - and your muscles feel it for days
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pdurbin reminds me a little of http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/bostonhiking/info
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benwerd I think the analogy of a feed you can join sits well with me
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benwerd Fb effectively does that (groups are a variation on the personal profile) and it allows a lot of the same techniques to be re-used. I also like the idea of adding delegated, granular CRUD permissions to *any* feed, which is something I might play with.
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tantek also interesting - that example of NPSF - that's actually a FB "page" - and yet it is functioning quite well as a group
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pdurbin hmm
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tantek more interesting: anyone (with login) can "Like" the group (thus "joining" it), and then "comment" or post things to the group - and yet - it doesn't get spammed.
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tantek unlike say Twitter, where anyone (with login) can post a hashtag (thus "joining" it), and then comment or post things to it - and gets spammed - A LOT
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tantek so what's going on there?
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tantek or am I just missing obvious examples of FB pages/groups that get spammed?
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benwerd I've definitely seen them get spammed
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benwerd But you can moderate them
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pdurbin tantek: censorship ;)
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benwerd That happens much less easily with hashtags (you can mark a user as spam, but there's no "owner" of a hashtag)
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tantek pdurbin - so hashtags have no admins - is that what you mean?
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tantek and yes Twitter's spam handling is horrible
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pdurbin my expectation is that hashtags are uncensored
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tantek (as in doesn't seem to really take any effect in the UI)
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pdurbin this very channel could get spammed... I'm glad it doesn't :)
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tantek pdurbin - sure, and we have a few admins since we registered the channel
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tantek here's another theory for FB groups vs. Twitter hashtags -
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tantek posting to a FB group is a very deliberate thing, you have to go to a different page/URL to post to it
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tantek posting to a Twitter hashtag is incidental, you merely mention it
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tantek it may be a case where having a more explicit UI (slight barrier) actually helps
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pdurbin google+ adds hashtags without you even asking
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tantek and G+ hashtag search is pretty crappy. well, as is FB hashtag search to be fair.
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tantek Twitter's search has at least improved considerably in the past year
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pdurbin i have pretty good luck finding old posts on google+ ... it's one reason I use it
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tantek interesting - as my experience has been it's been difficult to find old posts on G+ - especially those I've commented on
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pdurbin oh, well, I only post publicly
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pdurbin anyway, I like the idea of indiegroups or whatever
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pdurbin how can you own your group? host mailman on your domain? run a forum on your domain? run discourse on your domain?
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tantek public indie groups are a good place to start. clearly public groups "work" for some set of use-cases - as illustrated by https://www.facebook.com/NovemberProjectSF
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pdurbin yeah, public ftw
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tantek I think a group that works and survives isn't "owned" by anyone, it's owned by all the members and perhaps recreatable by the admins
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pdurbin yeah, owned by whoever is renting the domain I mean, I guess
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tantek so I do not think hosting a group on your own domain makes sense. for events yes (as benwerd points out), but not for persisting groups
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tantek pdurbin - right, there is the question of how to create / share / use / maintain a domain for a group
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pdurbin sorry, i meant your group's domain... http://groups.indiewebcamp.com
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tantek sure - that could be a good starting place for experimentation
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tantek and then groups that wanted to split off to their own domain could do so
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pdurbin of course I'm reminded of this... Groupware Bad - http://www.jwz.org/doc/groupware.html :)
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tantek love that post
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tantek tl;dr - "new calendar server project" that dooms it right there ;)
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tantek and this gem: "Groupware" is all about things like "workflow"
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tantek and this: because there was going to be absolutely no buy-in from the "itch-scratching" crowd.
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tantek I'd forgotten that bit of that post, will have to use that as a way to debunk proposals in the future - "no buy-in from the itch-scratching crowd"
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tantek (I mean, we're all one big itch-scratching crowd here, right? ;) )
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pdurbin :)
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tantek.com created /group (+528) "stub with a few things, pointers to IRC, jwz post" (view diff)
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snarfed i know it's sticking my neck out a bit, but i have to admit, that jwz post follows something i personally think is a broader antipattern
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snarfed grass roots stuff like indieweb tends to focus on consumer usage, which is great! except when it leads us to think that's the only usage that matters
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snarfed yes, enterprise, workflow, etc are incredibly boring and dinosaur-ish…but they're real needs for big orgs
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tantek.com edited /group (+39) "capture indie group phrasing" (view diff)
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tantek barnabywalters, benwerd, pdurbin - here's an attempt at a start to capture some of this on indie groups, please add more http://indiewebcamp.com/group
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snarfed it's totally ok if we don't care about them and don't build for them. but they do exist, and it is ok for other people to build stuff for them…and even for us to occasionally accept good ideas from them
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snarfed anyway. done w/my rant. :P
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tantek snarfed - I think it's better to create software that alters big org cultures
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tantek than attempt to create software that matches existing big org culture
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tantek pretty sure that's the perspective where jwz's disdain for "enterprise" comes from
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snarfed for some things, definitely
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tantek and not just software, devices, services
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tantek the larger point being
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tantek enterprise actually fails at innovation
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tantek (in their own tools)
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snarfed sure, but innovation is only one goal. it's not necessarily what all orgs should be trying to do
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tantek and you need enthusiasts (e.g. Homebrew Computer Club) to invent the PC to displace the minicomputer/mainframe
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tantek to provide the tools that enterprise will eventually adopt
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tantek not the tools they think they need
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snarfed some enterprises, yes, but not all. e.g. gov't and military are two examples where creating products, innovating, etc aren't their jobs, and hierarchical approvals, workflow, etc may be ok
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snarfed there are lots of kinds of orgs out there, with different needs. we don't have to serve them all, but it's ok for other people to!
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tantek sure people should work on what they want to
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tantek I think jwz's point is that it's a likely waste of time
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tantek especially in terms of adoption
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tantek i.e. indie/consumer innovations often get adopted by enterprise
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tantek but not vice versa
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tantek so it makes sense to start indie/consumer
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tantek even if you're eventual goal is enterprise
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tantek s/you're/your
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Loqi tantek meant to say: even if your eventual goal is enterprise
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tantek :P
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tantek snarfed re: "leads us to think that's the only usage that matters" - right, that's a good way of phrasing the problem
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snarfed yeah. i guess i'm just sensitive to overstatement. jwz literally says, if you're making a calendar for enterprise, your use case should be, how does a 22 yr old use your software to get laid. pretty ridiculous.
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tantek it's not the only usage that matters, just the first usage that matters. the others can come later and be built upon it. user/individual first, group/hierarchy/management second.
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snarfed but overstatement is good at getting a message across and making people think
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snarfed agreed. we're probably in violent agreement at this point
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tantek yes - it's classic jwz overstatement style to make his point.
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KartikPrabhu does anyone why http://indiewebify.waterpigs.co.uk/validate-h-entry/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fkartikprabhu.com%2Farticle%2Fblogging-dead does not show the p-name?
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KartikPrabhu damn! missed barnabywalters by 2 mins
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tantek.com edited /group (+1070) "see also hashtags, and braindump contrasts between groups and hashtags" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /Hashtags (+21) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /Hashtag (+22) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Hashtags (+1) "r" (view diff)
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pdurbin phew! done shoveling (lotta snow in boston)
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pdurbin !tell tantek nice "group" writeup
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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pdurbin :/
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pdurbin :)
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KartikPrabhu more loss of hosted content: http://holdenweb.blogspot.com/2014/01/bliptv-deletes-python-content.html
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pdurbin !tell barnabywalters you mean you aren't going to http://dhtmlconf.com ? ;)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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Loqi tantek: pdurbin left you a message 34 minutes ago: nice "group" writeup
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tantek thanks pdurbin. please feel free to edit/correct/expand
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tantek also it would be good to capture your positive experience with G+ somehow
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/Google+
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tantek pdurbin you noted that based on the way you use G+, you're able to easily find old posts
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pdurbin t'is true
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tantek.com edited /Google+ (+194) "stub a Searchability section" (view diff)
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tantek maybe you could add some tips here? http://indiewebcamp.com/Google%2B#Searchability
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Loqi barnabywalters: pdurbin left you a message 18 minutes ago: you mean you aren't going to http://dhtmlconf.com ? ;)
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barnabywalters pdurbin: LOL
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tantek haha - so good
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barnabywalters KartikPrabhu: RE no p-name, it’s because that validator is currently very focused on notes rather than named posts
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KartikPrabhu aah i see! good to know
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barnabywalters raised an issue: https://github.com/indieweb/indiewebify-me/issues/10
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christopheducamp.com edited /selfdogfood-fr (+4493) "[fr: translation sync'd with original]" (view diff)
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christopheducamp.com edited /selfdogfood-fr (-4) "[fr ''Ce contenu a démarré sur [[selfdogfood]]'']" (view diff)
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christopheducamp.com edited /selfdogfood-fr (+73) "[fr: sync with original : section voir aussi ]" (view diff)
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tantek Great post Ryan! http://snarfed.org/2013-05-31_fighting-information-overload-and-beyond Really like the prune & batch suggestions. Absolutely right about minimizing context-switches. Blogged about pruning a little over 10y ago: http://tantek.com/log/2003/04.html#L20030421t1700
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snarfed thanks tantek!
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tantek snarfed - just tried sending you a webmention for that comment and got a 400 Bad Request {"error":"no_link_found"}
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snarfed hmm, looking
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snarfed what was the source url?
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-01-03/line/1388788648 :)
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snarfed oh from irc!
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snarfed ok…
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tantek indiewebify finds the author, content, permalinks, datepublished just fine: http://indiewebify.waterpigs.co.uk/validate-h-entry/?url=http%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2014-01-03%2Fline%2F1388788648
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tantek aside: barnabywalters - awesome that you're keeping an uptodate deployed version of indiewebifyme. would be nice if you were able to deploy to indiewebify.me also!
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tantek the fact that we have such a nice h-entry validator at all is incredible
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barnabywalters tantek: indeed, I need to sort it out with bnvk
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barnabywalters tantek: thanks! we have various improvements in the pipeline
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tantek I bet he's too distracted with working on email ;)
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barnabywalters distraction^2
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snarfed my webmention plugin's mf parser isn't finding the h-entry. whee. added to my todo list. thanks for the nudge.
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snarfed hah, distractions, agreed
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tantek snarfed - which parser are you using?
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snarfed not sure. i use pfefferle's wordpress-webmention plugin with minor tweaks
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snarfed looks like mf2. may be an old version.
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pdurbin tantek: maybe link to this question/answer of mine: http://webapps.stackexchange.com/questions/17980/how-can-i-find-my-comment-on-a-google-post-when-no-one-has-commented-after-me
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tantek hmm - that should be PHP which should just be using barnabywalters' parser
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tantek pdurbin - sounds good - go for it - feel free to edit the IWC G+ page directly
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snarfed pfefferle rewrote the plugin, and i haven't upgraded yet, so it's on me. thanks for the nudge.
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pdurbin hmm. RelParser::InsecureRedirectError at /auth/start
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barnabywalters snarfed: where’s the h-entry not being found? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-01-03/line/1388788648?
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barnabywalters latest version of php-mf2 finds it okay: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2014-01-03%2Fline%2F1388788648
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barnabywalters but there’s no *link*, only the URL in plaintext
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snarfed i'm sure i'm using an old version of mf2
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snarfed and the client side code that looks for it is complicated: https://github.com/snarfed/wordpress-webmention/blob/master/webmention.php#L391
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barnabywalters because it’s marked up as p-content not e-content
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snarfed i doubt it's worth debugging this too much, though. i should spend that effort upgrading to pfefferle's new code instead.
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tantek barnabywalters - good catch. I think it should be using e-content. ping aaronpk
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barnabywalters especially with the new e-* parsing rules, there’s no particular reason to use p- for content any more
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snarfed ah, agreed, good catch
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barnabywalters as the p- parsed version will always be available
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tantek indeed
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barnabywalters thinking of abandoning the whole /notes /articles /music URL thing and just having posts, which can be navigated in chronological order, by “type” or tag
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tantek !tell aaronpk there's a rough consensus that the indiewebcamp IRC archive h-entry markup for individual lines should be using e-content instead of p-content: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-01-03/line/1388789951
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek barnabywalters - that doesn't like abandoning, just rewriting the backend
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tantek as in, presumably you'd keep the URLs working to produce the same result, as you say, "by 'type')
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tantek sounds like you're saying you're thinking of *adding* "just having posts, which can be navigated in chronological order"
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tantek it would be interesting to hear your reasoning as to why you're considering this switch/addition
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barnabywalters tantek: yeah, that could be a good evolutionary way of looking at it. maybe draw some inspiration from flickr for variously scoped previous/next navigation, e.g. prev/next “thing”, prev/next thing *of this type*
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tantek my prev/next post nav buttons came from the 2012 era version of flickr.com :)
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barnabywalters reasoning is: currently there’s too high a barrier to adding new types of things to post, and too much to maintain
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tantek pdurbin - that's not a very nice error message
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tantek pdurbine - which auth provider did you try with IndieAuth that gave you that?
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aaronpk pdurbin: can you tell me how you got that? I've heard that one come up a couple times, but I thought it should be giving a better HTML error with a description
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Loqi aaronpk: tantek left you a message 4 minutes ago: there's a rough consensus that the indiewebcamp IRC archive h-entry markup for individual lines should be using e-content instead of p-content: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-01-03/line/1388789951
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tantek possibly Twitter? if so, your home page needs to link to https://twitter.com… not just the http: version
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tantek found pdurbin's home page via /irc-people :)
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barnabywalters wishes colloquy could easily be extended to make /name a shortcut for http://indiewebcamp.com/name
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aaronpk doesn't colloquy have a plugin system?
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barnabywalters aaronpk: not that I was aware of, but maybe
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aaronpk so with e-content, can I include HTML entities now?
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aaronpk ah yes, this looks good now
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barnabywalters aaronpk: the new e-parsing rules allow consumers to see properties as the original HTML or the content parsed as if it was a p-* element, i.e. “safe”
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barnabywalters so you can put whatever you like in e-*
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aaronpk http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2014-01-03%2Fline%2F1388789911
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tantek aaronpk - numerical entities preferred
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barnabywalters aaronpk: looking good!
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aaronpk tantek: hm what's the php function for that?
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barnabywalters tantek: why? xml compatibility?
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aaronpk it's using htmlspecialchars now
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barnabywalters htmlentities() possibly, though that might use named ones for some things
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aaronpk this one? php.net/mb_encode_numericentity
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tantek actually scratch that, just use UTF8
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tantek I find htmlspecialchars tends to overencode thing
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tantek things
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tantek digs up his cassis function for this
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tantek oh nm - htmlspecialchars is good to go for this use case
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tantek cassis.js just reimplements in JS so it can be used "natively" in either PHP or JS :)
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tantek https://github.com/tantek/cassis/blob/master/cassis.js#L202
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barnabywalters it would be so cool if github could link to language symbols e.g. function or class names
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tantek yeah - they should get their own HTML IDs!
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benwerd love that. and then if references in the code would link to the definitions .. full-blown IDE territory, but, man.
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tantek HTML IDE
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benwerd I haven't really played with any of the actual HTML IDEs (except for 5 mins with Cloud9) - anyone else?
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tantek those are all more JS IDEs than HTML IDEs
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tantek I don't think anyone has actually tried to build an HTML IDE
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tantek (an IDE that uses HTML, not an IDE *for* HTML)
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tantek benwerd you had mentioned some posts about various indieweb things sounding crazy - was that on twitter or?
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benwerd tantek - eg https://twitter.com/jasonkneen/status/418124118857625600
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Loqi https://twitter.com/jasonkneen :: Reading an article about indieweb and thinking wtf?
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tantek heh Loqi
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Loqi dude
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tantek ironically he does have his own domain: jasonified.com (even if it is hosted on Tumblr ;) )
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tantek as does the other person in the conversation: paul.kinlan.me
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tantek at least he's using Octopress
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tantek benwerd - I thought they were attacking/criticizing your work/posts in particular - I wonder what article they were referring to
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benwerd hard to know, although I was also defending my (admittedly straw-man-y) "do we need the Internet?" post over on Fb
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tantek given the timeframe - 2013-12-31
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benwerd Shrug. I'm a little weirded out by us being described as "these idiots"
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pdurbin tantek: sorry. kids. can't concentrate. was trying github
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tantek ironically that kind of description does more to discredit those making the statement
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tantek pdurbin odd. hmm. aaronpk ^^^
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tantek benwerd - it's a simple maturity/intelligence test - criticism of people rather than behaviors or ideas indicates either laziness or fear of engaging the ideas themselves.
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tantek publicly ad hominem attacking a specific person or group (especially without citation) indicates a lack of understanding of the previous statement
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tantek (internal consistency check: the previous two statements are indicating/criticizing behaviors, not individuals nor groups)
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tantek snarfed - fascinating - my favorite of your tweet just mentioning your blog post showed up as a favorite of the blog post itself! http://snarfed.org/2013-05-31_fighting-information-overload-and-beyond#comment-1171124
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tantek so does every tweet you make that links to that blog post act as a proxy for that post in terms of favorites, @-replies, and retweets?
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snarfed yup! indieweb is agnostic - a reply is also a post in its own right - so bridgy tries to be similarly agnostic
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pdurbin tantek: if you want to add that link, please go ahead
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snarfed or maybe flexible, or whatever adjective
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tantek pdurbin - I'd like to make sure we sort out whatever indieauth problem you were having.
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snarfed although i guess that's mostly just about the original post discovery algorithm
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tantek I'm not sure that's agnostic as it is including a second-degree of interactions semi-automatically
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benwerd (snarfed: I loved that aaronpk's Twitter favorite showed up as a like on my post. Really slickly done.)
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snarfed thanks!
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tantek benwerd - which post?
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tantek URL?
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benwerd tantek - http://werd.io/2013/heres-what-i-want-to-do-more-of-in-2014
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snarfed took a while for webmention.io to accept the webmention, but it did eventually
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tantek snarfed - btw the "via twitter.com" etc. links are essential to understanding and very well done in your UI
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tantek as in - how did this favorite get here? oh that's how.
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snarfed agreed. there are a lot of moving parts, so provenance is really helpful
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ShaneHudson Anyone know why when I run my site through indiewebify.me it says neither my email or twitter can be fetched? Despite having rel="me"?
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barnabywalters ShaneHudson: currently indiewebify.me h-card validation only looks at microformats properties, not rel values (apart from for rel-me detection)
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snarfed tantek: you'll get more favorites, etc when you sign up yourself! (/plug :P)
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tantek yeah seriously :)
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ShaneHudson barnabywalters: Ah, ok. So my site isn't broken? Lol Thanks!
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tantek hmm - I just favorited benwerd's post and it's not showing up when I refresh his post
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tantek I wonder what the lag time is on favorite propagation
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tantek is that Twitter -> Twitter streaming API -> bridgy -> idno on werd.io?
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tantek (wondering where the lag is)
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snarfed neither you nor ben are signed up :P
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benwerd I am!
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snarfed …really?
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snarfed looking
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snarfed oh! true
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benwerd newly, today
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benwerd but I am :)
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snarfed ah, that's why. welcome!
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tantek benwerd - but that favorite says it showed up 4 days ago
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benwerd it did
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benwerd because aaronpk was signed up
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tantek how's that possible if you only signed up today?
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benwerd (I assume)
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tantek that's very confusing
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tantek I thought the sign-up part was only for the *receiver* of webmentions
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tantek not for every person doing the favoriting / @-replying / retweeting
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snarfed it is a bit confusing. it's both sender and receiver for twitter favorites, but receiver only for everything else
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snarfed just because i didn't restrict the streaming api part, and i liked the result
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tantek snarfed - why? I'd think receivers would want to get *all* their favorites
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tantek not just from those who happened to have signed-up with bridgy
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ShaneHudson Hmm just read that twitter conversation between Paul, Jason and benwerd... shame they don't get it. Perhaps it is worth talking to Paul and perhaps writing a html5rocks article about it?
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tantek Shanehudson - you mean post a non-ironic article on a silo about the indieweb?
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snarfed tantek: sorry, i was unclear. it's the other direction. receivers get all replies/reshares/likes of their stuff. they also *send* their twitter favorites to everyone, but only twitter favorites right now, for no good reason.
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tantek ShaneHudson - my experience has been that it's a more effective use of time to *do* (i.e. improve your own indieweb presence) than *tell* (write posts on others sites about the indieweb)
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ShaneHudson Haha it is not a closed silo though, fully open source and non-exclusive right to post articles so could be POSSed
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ShaneHudson that's a fair point :)
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tantek you know the drill, ignore the haters, go create something
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tantek which reminds me