#indiewebcamp 2014-01-17

2014-01-17 UTC
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@kevinmarks According to Google Play, Indie/Alternative is the biggest category http://research.google.com/bigpicture/music/ #indieweb #SoIndieItsMainstream (twitter.com/_/status/423971134434865152)
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@OhhSocialMedia RT @kevinmarks: According to Google Play, Indie/Alternative is the biggest category http://research.google.com/bigpicture/music/ #indieweb #SoIndieItsMainstream (twitter.com/_/status/423971841498439680)
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@cubicgarden RT @kevinmarks: According to Google Play, Indie/Alternative is the biggest category http://research.google.com/bigpicture/music/ #indieweb #SoIndieItsMainstream (twitter.com/_/status/423972860911443968)
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@VickiSutton_ RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb Scott: The indieweb Why page is mostly based on fear - you look like survivalists or a militia (twitter.com/_/status/423974960177348608)
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@N3PRO RT @kevinmarks: According to Google Play, Indie/Alternative is the biggest category http://research.google.com/bigpicture/music/ #indieweb #SoIndieItsMainstream (twitter.com/_/status/423975395332194304)
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shaners (I get the irony of this) Does anyone want to help curate the indie-web collection on Medium?
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shaners https://medium.com/indie-web
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@GrantedEdward RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb Scott: The indieweb Why page is mostly based on fear - you look like survivalists or a militia (twitter.com/_/status/423977171636731904)
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mathpunk.net created /User:Mathpunk.net (+219) "Created page with "my domain: mathpunk.net my goals: - keep a minimalist "who am i" page - put up a portfolio of data exploration projects - keep notes online - share some notes online - organize ..."" (view diff)
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mathpunk.net edited /User:Mathpunk.net (+163) (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Bridgy (+874) "add how to use, why, history sections, and another indieweb example subsection" (view diff)
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tantek snarfed - Bridgy is backfeed as a service right - Baas - sounds like perhaps a good inspiration for a logo ;)
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KevinMarks_ Chrome for Android just shipped "add to homescreen"
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KevinMarks_ rounds the corners of the favicon image
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KevinMarks_ I wonder if you can make one with an alpha channel and have it work
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pdurbin "
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pdurbin Collaborative work environment with Chat, Audio and Video conferencing over WebRTC.
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pdurbin https://github.com/markmandel/chaperone
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pdurbin copy/paste fail but that was for http://indiewebcamp.com/video#QA.2FFAQ
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @benwerd: I want something for my family. I want to plug it into a wall and have it working. (twitter.com/_/status/424006917934301184)
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@mmzeroexp RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @mathpunk: I don't want everything chronological, I want to make my own piles of information (twitter.com/_/status/424017519461281792)
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Loqi [@mmzeroexp] RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @snarfed_org: http://indiewebcamp.com/why is the best answer: own your data
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Loqi self dogfood
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Loqi rough consensus and running… (http://twtr.io/h4VV6VfQEw)
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Loqi [@ImageSnippets] RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @snarfed_org: http://indiewebcamp.com/why is the best answer: own your data
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Loqi self dogfood
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Loqi rough consensus and running… (http://twtr.io/h4WMv9SzGG)
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@ImageSnippets RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @mathpunk: I don't want everything chronological, I want to make my own piles of information (twitter.com/_/status/424020226083405825)
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KevinMarks_ hm. I should fix that noterlive thing that reposts the last one when the browser reloads the page
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@JohnMaxville RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @edrex: Working on collaborative creative writing - currently a silo, but built on couchdb so can potentially sync (twitter.com/_/status/424048065780416512)
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@brianjesse RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @benwerd: I want something for my family. I want to plug it into a wall and have it working. (twitter.com/_/status/424048967232401409)
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snarfed !tell tantek bridgy is indeed backfeed as a service. good distinction, since there are other implementations that run in existing servers (eg wordpress plugins)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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snarfed.org edited /Bridgy (+140) "/* send silo interactions */" (view diff)
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@_danielsjourney Indieweb? http://blog.danielsjourney.com/2014/01/16/indieweb/ (twitter.com/_/status/424075857187983362)
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aaronpk haha
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aaronpk "13 years ago when I started blogging we just called it “the web”"
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aaronpk yes. yes indeed we did.
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KartikPrabhu also "Sad because despite their byzantine technologies the indieweb people are most certainly in the right, and in a previous incarnation of my life I would have had time to mess about with said technologies."
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aaronpk yeah :(
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aaronpk it's ok, not everyone has time to scratch this itch
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KartikPrabhu i am wondering what technology he thinks is byzantine
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aaronpk hard to tell from the post, but most likely prompted by something he saw on http://indiewebify.me/
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aaronpk could be just looking at the terminology on that page
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aaronpk if I scan that page looking for technical terms, I see:
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aaronpk microformats2, h-card, h-entry, webmentions,
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aaronpk other than that it's plain english, which is great
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aaronpk I particularly like how step 1 contains no invented words:
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KartikPrabhu The sentence seems to be referring to webmentions, which can hardly be called byzantine
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aaronpk "Become a citizen of the IndieWeb: 1. Get your own domain name, 2. Set up Web Sign In"
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aaronpk Level 2 section 1 needs a subheader, like "Markup your content: adding microformats2 markup allows other sites to ..."
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KartikPrabhu i am still confused about what the "send mentions" does
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aaronpk me too
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aaronpk does that actually go send mentions for one of your posts?
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KartikPrabhu i don't know if it send a mention to or a mention from the entered url
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KartikPrabhu it would be good to have some words about what it does. and also some sort of response on the resulting page
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KartikPrabhu ok i used the "send webmentions" on one of my posts which links to indiewebcamp but Loqi never picked it up. So it does not send mentions on behalf of your own post
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KartikPrabhu looking at the source code https://github.com/indieweb/indiewebify-me/blob/master/templates/send-webmentions.html.php it does seem to be sending mentions on behalf of the entered url.
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Jihaisse Hello
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voxpelli These new custom elements that are being supported by eg. Chrome
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voxpelli Anyone been thinking about their possible impact on the ease of parsing a page? Will it get harder for an independent to parse a pure HTML-page?
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@Miiipaaay RT @t: Reminder: Homebrew Website Club meetup TONIGHT 18:30 @MozSF @ESRIPDX http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-01-15-homebrew-website-club and http://snarfed.org/2014-01-15_homebrew-website-club-tonight (ttk.me t4U55) (twitter.com/_/status/424131876031193088)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/t/423604747325964288/424131876031193088 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-01-15-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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Jeena wanna look trough my kitchen window? http://217.115.45.63/
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cweiske Jeena, what do you use to stream that?
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Jeena a raspberry pi :D
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cweiske no, which software?
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Jeena ah mjpeg_streamer
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cweiske it looks like a normal image, but it updates
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cweiske is that standard?
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Jeena mjpeg is a standard, yeah
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Jeena sadly firefox has a bug so it only shows the first frame and then shows black :( https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=479015
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Jeena I chose mjpeg because this is what the webcam delivers (via USB) so I the raspberry pi doesn't have to decode and encode it it just pushes it to the network card
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Jeena the webcam hangs upside down, that is why I do translate: rotate(180deg)
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Jeena in CSS ^^
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cweiske I used vlc to stream my webcam
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cweiske http://p.cweiske.de/36
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Jeena on which hardware?
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cweiske desktop pc
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Jeena ah ok, I want to use the thing as a remote doorbell, my parents have a house in poland and live in germany (and me in sweden) so we want to be able to talk to people at the door there
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Jeena I have added a sip client there too which answers calls automatically
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Jeena and the sip client uses more then 50% CPU while it is running so I needed something really lightweight for the video
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Jeena but I wonder if mjpeg would work with the <video> tag
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Jeena mpeg_stream comes also with a rudimentary HTTP server, so no need for Apache
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Jeena btw. your self hosted paste thingy looks really cool
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cweiske the git version also supports remote paste display
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cweiske so you can fork a paste on your server from my server
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cweiske and your server then sends a webmention to my server, and my server shows a link to your paste
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@xtof_fr @apw FYI "Future of #quantifiedself devices" /by @aaronpk http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2013/10/11/1/the-future-of-quantified-self-devices #ownyourdata (#mydatalabs 2014-01-17#Ressources) (twitter.com/_/status/424155242276474880)
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Jeena wow this sounds more then cool :D
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cweiske oh, p.cweiske.de supports this already
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cweiske $ curl -I http://p.cweiske.de/36
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cweiske Link: <http://p.cweiske.de/36/linkback>;rel="http://webmention.org/"
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@NetGoldFish RT @xtof_fr: @apw FYI "Future of #quantifiedself devices" /by @aaronpk http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2013/10/11/1/the-future-of-quantified-self-devices #ownyourdata (#mydatalabs 2014-01-17#Ressou… (twitter.com/_/status/424158351682191360)
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Jeena nice
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@dealingwith RT @_danielsjourney: Indieweb? http://blog.danielsjourney.com/2014/01/16/indieweb/ (twitter.com/_/status/424190444054908928)
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Loqi [mention] http://sebastiangreger.net/2014/01/own-your-data-part-1-bookmarks/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/principles (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://sebastiangreger.net/2014/01/own-your-data-part-1-bookmarks/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://sebastiangreger.net/2014/01/own-your-data-part-1-bookmarks/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/principles (webmention)
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@sebastiangreger "Own your data”, part I: Bringing the bookmarks home from the cloud http://sebastiangreger.net/2014/01/own-your-data-part-1-bookmarks/ - an #indieweb self-experiment (ping @aaronpk) (twitter.com/_/status/424192743594663936)
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Loqi [mention] http://sebastiangreger.net/2014/01/own-your-data-part-1-bookmarks/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://sebastiangreger.net/2014/01/own-your-data-part-1-bookmarks/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/principles (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://sebastiangreger.net/2014/01/own-your-data-part-1-bookmarks/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://sebastiangreger.net/2014/01/own-your-data-part-1-bookmarks/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/principles (webmention)
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bnvk !tell barnabywalters ping me when you're around, I have a PGP email req of you :)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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@ilparone RT @sebastiangreger: "Own your data”, part I: Bringing the bookmarks home from the cloud http://sebastiangreger.net/2014/01/own-your-data-part-1-bookmarks/ - an #indieweb self-experim… (twitter.com/_/status/424202266594537473)
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Loqi tantek: snarfed left you a message 10 hours, 23 minutes ago: bridgy is indeed backfeed as a service. good distinction, since there are other implementations that run in existing servers (eg wordpress plugins)
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Loqi barnabywalters: aaronpk left you a message on 1/16 at 11:50am: http://aaronparecki.com/messages/2014/01/19/1/indieauth-walkthrough
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Loqi barnabywalters: bnvk left you a message 1 hour, 23 minutes ago: ping me when you're around, I have a PGP email req of you :)
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barnabywalters aaronpk: oh very cool :)
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@ItsJonnyLee RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @t: POSSE banking is like personal electronic mattress. [did Johannes just invent POSSEcoin] (twitter.com/_/status/424222436616593408)
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KevinMarks_ did snarfed take it too seriously in irc?
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tantek Kevinmarks, take what too seriously?
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KevinMarks_ POSSE banking (he pasted his bank accounts in here)
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tantek hahaha - oh right that - yeah it's been redacted from the logs.
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@diplix RT @nxD4n: POSSE is an acronym/abbreviation for Publish (on your) Own Site, Syndicate Elsewhere. http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE #reclaim /@diplix @… (twitter.com/_/status/424222995499204608)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/t/423757432989294592/11628 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (webmention)
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snarfed so, enough people are joining bridgy that i need to figure out a new front page design
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snarfed ie something that will scale better than "fetch and render *all users*"
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snarfed i'm kind of dreading it. i have ideas, but none that i'm like. i am *not* a designer. :P
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snarfed nice problem to have though, i guess
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aaronpk snarfed: holy cow that's a lot of people
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snarfed yeah!
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snarfed only a fraction have successfully received a webmention, of course
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snarfed but still
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aaronpk ah yeah
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aaronpk I can't wait to get my instagram on there
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snarfed totally!
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snarfed instagram is the most awkward. posse links (or citations, etc) look the most out of place in instagram, imho
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aaronpk yeah, probably cause instagram isn't very webby
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snarfed yeah true
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: I am not a designer either. But I could help write css and all that for bridgy if you'd like
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snarfed thanks for the offer KartikPrabhu!
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KartikPrabhu well my only resume is my own site :P
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snarfed you have a great site!
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snarfed more than enough resume
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snarfed it's really well designed, i like it
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snarfed bridgy's main challenge right now is probably high level design, not css implementation. rendering everyone on the front page is easy, and the per-user fragments (click on the #s) all work. if i have to do something different, ie not everyone on the front page…i don't know what that should be yet.
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snarfed open to ideas!
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aaronpk snarfed: a facepile on the home page, and each user gets their own URL that shows the details?
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snarfed facepile actually sounds pretty good! especially since it's much more cacheable without the "polled XX minutes ago" links
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: an alphabetical facepile would be nice to find people
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snarfed i like it. adding a note to the GH issue now. thanks guys!
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KartikPrabhu also, somehow put multiple accounts of same user together on the user-page and not on main
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aaronpk somehow, heh
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aaronpk you should be able to link them by the user's primary domain, right?
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Loqi it is probable
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aaronpk tho that might be a more significant change internally depending on how things are set up
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KartikPrabhu yup that is what i was going to suggest. maybe use indieauth for logins and allow people to connect multiple accounts
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aaronpk if you have people sign in with indieauth, then you can discover all their profiles you support from their home page at the same time
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aaronpk btu like i said, probably a more significant change
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snarfed agreed, connecting would definitely be nice
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snarfed it's funny. the current approach of "send webmentions to everything that supports them" means i actually don't know each account's "primary domain"
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snarfed which i liked for the first phase, since it made signup so quick
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snarfed but more account mgmt like connecting will need it. indieauth does sound right for that
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: yeah it is great for an initial setup. much quicker
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snarfed one step at a time
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KartikPrabhu it is interesting how the backend needs changes just to make the front design better
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snarfed well, connecting accounts would be a new feature, not just a design change
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snarfed but often yeah, that's true
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KartikPrabhu but it would be awkward to have 4 tantek s in the facepile :P
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snarfed hah true!
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snarfed maybe different colored outlines or shadows for each silo, to differentiate them
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snarfed (until connecting)
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snarfed we'll see
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KartikPrabhu that sounds good for a start. the colours...
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aaronpk agreed!
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: is there a way to see all responses?
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snarfed not right now, no, sorry
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snarfed i'll add that in the redesign
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KartikPrabhu cool!
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KartikPrabhu maybe by then i'll fixup my webmention parsing and rejoin bridgy
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snarfed that'd be great!
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tantek LOL KartikPrabhu
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KartikPrabhu ;)
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tantek.com created /What (+18) "r" (view diff)
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@eikiu @voxpelli hi, I'm using your webmention herokuapp. Quick question: (i'm new to webmention) how long does it take to process it? (twitter.com/_/status/424260479843061760)
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@wavis heh. plug-out vs plug-in. a child process communicated with using a socket. http://bouml.fr/doc/index_plugout.html everything #indieweb should do this. (twitter.com/_/status/424265450201944064)
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tantek.com created /indieweb (+1867) "time to put this on its own page" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /creator () "(-1439) /* indieweb */ link to main" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /BarCamp (+289) "stub" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /barcamp (+21) "r" (view diff)
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voxpelli Is the current WebMention spec saying both that a a response should be sent before fetching and that an error response should be sent if the webmention turns out to be invalid?
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tantek.com edited /what (+2540) "time to make this its own page, to answer the "what" question (as raised at HWCSF 2014-015), and unpack a few terms" (view diff)
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snarfed voxpelli: i interpret the error responses part as only if you do work synchronously
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tantek voxpelli - could you ask the question about a specific URL?
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voxpelli tantek: https://github.com/converspace/webmention
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snarfed specifically, i interpret this to cancel out the error responses part, if you follow it: "If you choose to process the request and perform the https://github.com/converspace/webmention/blob/master/README.md#verification step synchronously, you can respond with a 200 OK status on success."
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tantek a lot of us have been keeping track of FAQs like that here: http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention
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snarfed good call. http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#sync.2Fasync_response_status_code
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tantek thanks snarfed
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tantek snarfed, per the question(s) that came up at Homebrew Website Club - I created a "what" page - take a look and see if this sounds new-person friendly: http://indiewebcamp.com/what
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voxpelli The error responses should probably be a "MAY" rather than a should as the 202 is a "SHOULD" then
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snarfed tantek: sure!
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aaronpk voxpelli: yes that sounds reasonable
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tantek I say new-person rather than noobie as I mean people who might just be new to the community, but are otherwise quite technical or are creators / independent publishers in their own right.
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tantek voxpelli - is there specific text you recommend changing on http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention ?
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aaronpk my implementation returns some error responses for errors where I have nothing I can do, such as when a source URL is missing
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snarfed the SHOULD => MAY changes that voxpelli suggested sound good to me
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snarfed specifically the two SHOULDs in 'Error Responses'
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snarfed voxpelli, send a pull request?
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aaronpk tantek: I like "new person" better. "noobie" has negative connotations.
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voxpelli snarfed: will do
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snarfed (not that i can merge it, but still :P)
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tantek snarfed - that "not that I can merge it in" is why we're using the wiki page now instead to capture these kinds of details
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voxpelli tantek: the wiki don't seems to have any such problematic words
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snarfed tantek: agreed. would be nice to merge the two, or at least say explicitly in both which is authoritative.
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tantek voxpelli - thus does http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#sync.2Fasync_response_status_code answer your question? Or do you have suggestion(s) for text to add to it?
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aaronpk the wiki is not the formal spec right now
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voxpelli tantek: should probably update the link to the spec to say that it's not just outdated, but not in use anymore
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tantek snarfed - specs typically are wherever implementations decide to converge
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aaronpk there's lots of things in the github spec that aren't on the wiki
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tantek rather than any top-down assertion of formality
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aaronpk so if we want to treat the wiki as authoritative, we'd need to pull ab unch of stuff over
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tantek aaronpk - sounds like a good idea
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tantek since we can better collaboratively do so in that direction gh->wiki than the other
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voxpelli tantek: http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#sync.2Fasync_response_status_code looks good to me
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tantek voxpelli great!
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snarfed tantek: the what page looks good! maybe consider moving the indieweb section to the top, above creator and camp. otherwise i like it!
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tantek ok!
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snarfed on the why page, we could similarly consider moving 'Focus on the Positive' to the top, above the negative section
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tantek.com edited /what (+0) "move indieweb defn to top since other terms use it" (view diff)
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tantek is hacking and slashing /why
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tantek.com edited /why (+304) "very rough re-ordering to put the positives first, subheads for both positive and negative reason clusters" (view diff)
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tantek snarfed - there's a first rough imperfect attempt at restructuring /why
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/why
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tantek please feel free to rewrite/reorder any of the subheads
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tantek or add more!
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snarfed tantek: awesome! i'm already liking it a lot more. nice work!
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snarfed i may eventually add cross links btw what, why, and principles
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snarfed and maybe even add one or more to the Resources sidebar
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tantek hopefully we can get the content to be "self-serve" so folks finding the site can quickly answer their own questions
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tantek and if not, when people ask us questions, we can quickly respond with an easy to remember / obvious URL
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tantek like /why /what etc.
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tantek e.g. when Richard (Mozilla person who helped with the Vidyo setup) asked me if we had a bigger logo, I said, guessing, http://indiewebcamp.com/logo - without having checked it, and it was there.
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KartikPrabhu adding the /what to the left hand resources menu would be good. I couldn't find how to do that on the wiki...
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tantek wow that's high praise for a page that just got created ;)
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@jkphl Today: Implemented @indiewebcamp authorship algorithm into micrometa, new release on GitHub https://github.com/jkphl/micrometa #microformats #microdata (twitter.com/_/status/424298244118962177)
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j12t For the /why page: for the first time in history, we now have valuable data that we'd like to keep. So we'd like to have possession of it, instead of always having to ask others for it.
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tantek j12t - I was thinking about some of the things you said at the HWC meeting
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tantek right now indieweb is quite a focused community on actually indie *web*, not
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tantek rather than "indie home intranet"
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j12t "web" being "public"?
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tantek so here's my challenge to you j12t - what's it going to take for you to post your notes on upon2020.com instead of or before https://twitter.com/Johannes_Ernst
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tantek j12t - in experience with web standards, yes, public
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j12t I need a wordpress plugin. I don't have time to write it myself.
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tantek snarfed uses wordpress and only posts on snarfed.org which then POSSEs to twitter
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tantek so the tools are there
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j12t is that usable by others?
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tantek it's not even his plugin AFAIK
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snarfed there are a number of mature, robust posse plugins for wordpress. jetpack publicize, social, snap
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tantek so my question to you his - what's it going to take to motivate you to do so?
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tantek s/his/is
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Loqi tantek meant to say: so my question to you is - what's it going to take to motivate you to do so?
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j12t I didn't actually know that. In which case I just need to figure out what to use, package it for cldstr.com, and add it to my site config.
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tantek and j12t - yes to owning your own public posts
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/snarfed_org/423650042340048897/139199211 linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-01-15#t1389840289 (webmention)
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tantek j12t - a-ha! so how could we improve documentation on the wiki to help with that
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snarfed http://indiewebcamp.com/WordPress actually looks pretty good. solid intro list of indieweb friendly plugins and themse
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j12t snarfed -- I didn't know about that page. And I can't find a link from the front.
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tantek j12t - it's linked from the /projects page of various indieweb projects
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snarfed yeah, most pages don't have a link from the front. real estate and all
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tantek linking everything from the front would mean you still couldn't find any thing due to clutter/noise
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snarfed.org edited /WordPress (+72) "/* People using WordPress */" (view diff)
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tantek so "can't find a link from the front" doesn't really help
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j12t tantek -- what about navigation from the front page that distinguishes 1) I want to hack code, vs 2) I want to use other people's code types of visitors
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tantek j12t - you should expect to search using a search box on the site, not using your browser find command on the page
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tantek if you type in "wordpress" into the search box it gives you that page as the first result
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j12t I think my issue with the front page is that it has lots of trees (issue with real estate, I hear you) but the forest is a bit unclear.
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tantek j12t - that's a reasonable critique
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snarfed agreed
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j12t What about splitting "Resources" into "About" vs. "How to help" or "what you can to today"
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tantek also it has an out of date "next indiewebcamp"
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tantek j12t - frankly I've never found the "Resources" heading to mean anything useful
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j12t And then, the "what you can do today" goes by the type of visitor,
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tantek anything labeled "Resources" might as well be called "See Also" or "misc"
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j12t E.g. "if you are a writer writing about it, do this". "If you want to hack code, do that" etc.
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tantek j12t - that kind of segmentation rarely works because people aren't computers that read a bunch of if tens
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tantek s/tens/thens
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Loqi tantek meant to say: j12t - that kind of segmentation rarely works because people aren't computers that read a bunch of if thens
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tantek you have to just pick the top use cases and link them directly without such prompts
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tantek because such prompts add to a "wall of text" problem
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tantek make it harder to skim
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j12t Rephrasing the label: "For developers". "For users". "Press"
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bear follow the pattern and create a /how which is a large TOC to various project pages
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bear everytime I view the front page I think it's just about the events
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tantek bear - the events are often where big forward leaps in progress are made
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tantek and having people meet in person strengthens online interactions greatly
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j12t Here's what I can do, not immediately but in the short term: figure out those WP plugins, try them out myself, and then make them "more accessible" to others (that might mean docs, cldstr.com support, Indie Box support ... not sure, depending on what I figure out)
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tantek the human-human connection part of the community *might* be the most important building block of all
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j12t And I make sure the wiki reflects that.
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tantek j12t - that would be GREAT
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tantek before we used to just have a flat list of plugins
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tantek then I think I challenged pferrele and snarfed to split them up according what was actually essential
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tantek and that's where we are now
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j12t I realize I should have done that some time ago, but that's no different from the other 200 things I should have done some time ago
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bear focusing on in person events may give the majority of the visitors a wrong impression that unless your in SF, PDX it's not of use
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tantek j12t heh
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tantek bear - those folks usually find us on IRC I'd say
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tantek and start asking questions
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tantek and then we have URLs as answers to those questions
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tantek I'm ok with new people showing up here and asking semi-obvious questions
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bear in the past yes - but i've been thinking about what happens when the non-tech person follows a twitter or web page url to the site...
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Jeena Is there a IndieWeb logo or icon? I can see the IndieWebCamp logo but no IndieWeb
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tantek people feeling like they have someone to help them out is often more useful/friendly than people feeling like they can do everything themselves
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bear (I grok that the answer to my own question is - wait for phase 2 or v2 )
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tantek Jeena - no such "IndieWeb" logo yet - though there is/was various "independent web" logos
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tantek looks
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tantek bear - we're a ways off from helping/supporting non-tech people - sorry to say
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bear nods
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tantek we're not even at the point where we can support *tech people* who are talkers rather than doers.
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tantek which there are LOTS of
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Jeena hehe
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bear apologies - I was following my own train of thought and lost focus of what your conversation was about
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tantek to anyone who thinks we (or any of us) should start appealing to non-tech people: get yourself 100% posting your own content on your own site first. Set an example first. If you can't do that, don't expect to know how figure out how to help others do so.
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tantek this includes 100% of all your tweets. post them them as notes to your site *first*, optionally POSSEing them elsewhere.
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tantek if you're not at least doing that, you're not in a position to "help" any non-tech person. you're not even close.
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bear grins and enjoys the very proper and polite "sit down son" ;)
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Jeena Hm that is right, I really should implement notes on my website, not just the blog, but I'm not really tweeting anyway :-/
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tantek Jeena - there's something to be said for (and incredibly empowering) to cut the cord with posting directly to Twitter.
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tantek Trust me, even if you rarely tweet, once you get it set up on your own site, you will incredibly free and liberated from Twitter.
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tantek It's an amazing feeling.
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tantek you will *feel incredibly free and liberated
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Jeena my biggest problem with all the twitter alternatives is that there are no desktop/mobile clients
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bear for me posting to twitter via my site increases the complexity so I have to wrangle with that mind-context
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tantek Jeena - your own website should be the desktop/mobile client
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tantek bear - if you build it right, it shouldn't increase the complexity at all
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tantek if anything it should both simplify it, and provider a BETTER experience for you (less distracting for one)
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Jeena no, that doesn't work, it is still a website in the browser
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bear I don't interact with my site using the web
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Jeena and I am using the browser in such a way that it never would stay open longer then an hour or something
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bear yea, the browser for me gets opened as needed and then closed
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Jeena and then I forget to reopen it and forget about reading it and posting to it
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bear i'm very much a command line kinda guy
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bear but I have my own solution for that and will have to take up that challenge of providing a non-web version of IndieWeb
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Jeena That is why I wrote a Twitter client just for me back in 2008 or something https://github.com/jeena/twittia/wiki
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tantek bear - how do you use Twitter then if not with a browser?
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tantek Jeena - perfect - if you wrote your own Twitter client - then you can mod it to post to your site instead!
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bear python tool that streams it to a console
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bear I use a desktop client also
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Jeena yeah posting should not be a problem
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Jeena reading is the bigger one ^^
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bear yea, that is part of what i'm now challenging myself to - get my tools lined up to be examples and shared
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Jeena could you in short explain how one would "follow" people with their own notes? Do you visit every one of those websites on your own every couple of hours or how does it work?
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tantek Jeena - reading the indieweb is an in-progress problem being solved
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/reader#Indieweb_perspective
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tantek but you don't need to solve it all at once - that's the point
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tantek start with owning your own notes by posting them from your site
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Jeena ok, I see, thanks for the link
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bear flip the contrarian bit to off
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bnvk !tell barnabywalters your "Feedreader Mockups" page seems to be hidden behind an auth http://photos.waterpigs.co.uk/p/pu
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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tantek.com edited /logo (+811) "create a separate page for logos to add any/all indieweb(camp) logos and historical independent web logos / buttons" (view diff)
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bnvk tantek: Jeena: hrm, I wonder if there is any open source browser ext (or just the front-end code) widget that handles the saving of bookmarks that one could easily point towards whatever backend datastore they choose
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Jeena it is 11:40 pm, the perfect time for starting implementing notes on my website haha
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bnvk Jeena: hehe, yah, it's 10:40 here in Iceland- i'm debating staying in and coding or going out for the even :P
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tantek Jeena - awesome!
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snarfed bnvk: sounds like something the unhosted guys would have
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bnvk snarfed: good call
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tantek Jeena - also, re: logos, I dug up some historical graphics/buttons and put them all with the indiewebcamp logo on the logo page: http://indiewebcamp.com/logo
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Jeena Oh hehe, uhm they look quite uhm colorfull ^^
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tantek perhaps we can get Zeldman to make an indieweb logo as an update to the Independents Day logo
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bnvk tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 22 karma
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Jeena I was thinking about something very plain like https://jeena.net/images/2014/IndieWeb.png
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Jeena but yeah a Zeldman logo would be cool :D
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tantek Jeena - feel free to upload that to the wiki: http://indiewebcamp.com/Special:Upload
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tantek and I can add it to a "Community Contributions" section on the logo page
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Jeena ok
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Jeena It is very cool that IndieAuth works with Browser ID
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tantek yeah!
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aaronpk also doesn't really read twitter from the web anymore, just via IRC
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jeena.net uploaded /File:IndieWeb.png "I was thinking that it would be really nice to have some plain IndieWeb logo to link from a IndieWeb enabled website and the other logos were very colorful, so I decided to just do it, nothing official. You can find the PSD here: https://jeena.net/media/IndieWeb.psd and the free font here: http://www.urbanfonts.com/fonts/Viper_Squadron.htm"
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Jeena http://indiewebcamp.com/File:IndieWeb.png
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Jeena I wasn't aware of the fact that the URL would have the file name in it
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tantek heh
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aaronpk why do we need a logo for the indieweb?
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tantek.com edited /logo (+211) "add Community Contributions section with Jeena's simple IndieWeb logo" (view diff)
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aaronpk isnt it just the web?
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tantek aaronpk - perhaps to represent the broader movement rather than just the camp?
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tantek it should be just "the web"
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tantek but right now "the web" to most people (and to most traffic) is silos (FB et al)
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tantek "just the web" seems like a good success condition though.
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tantek.com edited /Posts_about_the_IndieWeb (+29) "see also history and timeline" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /history (+31) "see also posts about" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /timeline (+31) "see also posts about" (view diff)
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Jeena in my head the web is everything you can reach from your computer via http(s) (and your browser) and the indieweb is kind of all the personal websites, weblogs with rss feeds and even more personal websites which at least implement webmentions or pingback something like that
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@BarnabyWalters @jkphl great work! There are a few different scenarios, http://indiewebcamp.com/authorship covers some e.g… http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4U7Nwx/ (twitter.com/_/status/424314433943662592)
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Loqi [mention] http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4U7Nwx/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/authorship (webmention)
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Jeena but yeah some distant goal could be that it becomes the web but I don't find it very likely ^^
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tantek Jeena - your description is good. I see more indie aggregator/community sites eventually emerging too which may not belong to just one person
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Jeena I wanted a logo to have something like the RSS logo back then which appeared on so many websites, after seeing it for the 30iest time some day you begin to wonder what it means
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tantek hopefully we can do better than the RSS logo
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tantek it was so confusing to so many people
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tantek and was spelled XML
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tantek on an orange background
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Jeena haha yeah omg
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Jeena but it got attention ^^
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tantek and when you clicked it you got a page of garbage code
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tantek very poor user experience
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tantek OTOH
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tantek I like the pretty Independents Day logos
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/logo#Independents_Day
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tantek especially the little animated gif ones at the bottom
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Jeena lol yeah, I would hope our logo would send you to something like http://indiewebify.me/
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tantek huh - something broken about the home screen CSS on indiewebify cc: bnvk, barnabywalters
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bnvk checking
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tantek about 1-2 chars of text etc. is cropped off the left edge
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tantek e.g. check in FF
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tantek resize window etc.
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Jeena but they are so bright, most of the websites today are black and white, perhaps with some pastel colors, nobody wants to add a red/orange blinking gif logo to their sidebar anymore
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Jeena (most people don't even have sidebars, which I love)
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tantek Jeena - no idea - that's a graphic design opinion
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tantek and we don't have many graphic designers in here
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Jeena I'm not one either I am just stating how I feel ;)
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Jeena ok now lets start with the notes
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bnvk tantek: bah, I'm seeing it too- it's when the window gets narrower than 950px
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tantek bnvk - same problem in Safari
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bnvk in webkit as well- hrmp, I used FlatUi + Bootstrap
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Jeena how long are you guys making your notes maximal? how many characters?
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tantek bootstrap yuck - way too overweight
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bnvk as I figured junk like this was taken care of in that framework...
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tantek er, heavyweight
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tantek nope
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tantek all frameworks bloat to the point of sucking
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tantek sign of popularity / "success"
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/BarnabyWalters/424314433943662592/424315825752113152 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/authorship (webmention)
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bnvk personally, I've never liked Bootstrap, but many many ppl LUV it, so I wanted to throw something up that looked decent
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Jeena not those which you write yourself for your own needs :)
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tantek Jeena - true
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bnvk Jeena: but often at the expense of being too limited then
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tantek also another reason I prefer to put stuff in a wiki (for the web) rather than github (for web sites) - mediawiki templates typically "just work"
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Jeena it is then when I just expand them
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tantek instead of github based sites which so often have busted-ass CSS
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tantek bnvk - problem with such frameworks is that they tradeoff being "extensible" for simple stuff breaking
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bnvk yeah
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tantek simple stuff "just working" >>>> any extensibility / power
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bnvk I've started a relatively lightweight CSS only framework called Rebar, used it a few times- still needs more dev https://github.com/brennannovak/rebar
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bnvk the goal was somewhere between boilerplate <---> micro framework
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bnvk but only CSS, I think JS should be totally separate
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tantek aaronpk - can we use an <img> at least 200px wide for the indiewebcamp logo in the top left on the website (rather than a background-image) so that we stop seeing the OSBridge logo in link previews on FB?
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aaronpk ha! good idea
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aaronpk there may have been a reason it's a background image. i'll see what I can do.
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aaronpk kind of funny that facebook is prioritising the osbridge logo over their own og:image meta tag
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tantek so we should just drop the og: meta stuff
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tantek I don't find it helps at all
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tantek just adds to page weight
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aaronpk yeah apparently FB is ignoring it anyway
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tantek right
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aaronpk can you add those notes here or on the wiki page? https://github.com/indieweb/wiki/issues
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aaronpk i can't do that right now
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tantek on it
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KevinMarks the indiewebcamp logo always makes me think of Electronic Arts
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bnvk hrm, I just told Fbook to update the URL cache https://developers.facebook.com/tools/debug/og/object?q=http%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2F
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bnvk seems like it's showing our logo now https://graph.facebook.com/10150329810235984
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tantek aaronpk - issues added.
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tantek bnvk - I don't trust that
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tantek also note dimensions
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tantek width: 185
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KevinMarks the old EA logo: http://www.brandsoftheworld.com/logo/electronic-arts-0
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tantek less than 200px
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tantek means FB prefers other images 200px or more
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aaronpk thx
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tantek KevinMarks - perhaps you can give that feedback to our logo designer, skinny.
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tantek (not on IRC now but you can !tell her a message)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /authorship (+92) "/* php mf2 getAuthor */ noted that php-mf2 getAuthor lacks side effects and as such doesn’t actually follow the whole algorithm above" (view diff)
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Jeena hehe I see why people don't write their own software and instead use twitter or facebook, there are so many decisions to make! do I use markdown for notes or just plain text and autolink and autoembed everything? how long should the notes maximal be? etc. etc.
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tantek Jeena - all good questions to consider!
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tantek or at least document, and then we can all document our own answers and see if we have any common clusters
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tantek those decisions to make == freedom to make those decisions :)
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Jeena and I need to decide before I do the database design ;)
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KevinMarks !tell skinny the indiewebcamp log reminds me of the old Electroinc Arts logo http://www.brandsoftheworld.com/logo/electronic-arts-0
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek Jeena - don't bother with a new database "design" - just base it on h-entry
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Jeena but nots have no title for example
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KevinMarks you want schema's, we have them
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KevinMarks :D
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Jeena and I am the only author on this software
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Jeena and so on ^^
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tantek starts capturing some FAQs
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KevinMarks sure, so start with just the fields you need - h-entry says they're optional anyway
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /authorship (+78) "/* Determining */ added h-feed author property checking as per, e.g. tantek.com waterpigs.co.uk homepages" (view diff)
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Jeena hm location would be cool in the future, but on the other side, when I'm ready to add location then I can add the field to the db too
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Jeena ok, markdown it is and I will do all the upload of the associated files/images in the client later on
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tantek.com edited /note (+1109) "start FAQ with a couple of questions from Jeena" (view diff)
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tantek Jeena - http://indiewebcamp.com/note#FAQ
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tantek Jeena - no one I know uses markdown for notes
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tantek pretty sure everyone here who has implemented notes uses plain text for notes
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tantek and markdown (or HTML) for articles
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Jeena hm
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KevinMarks noterlive is plaintext, though it's HTMLification is not great
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tantek but if you find it useful - go ahead and try it!
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KevinMarks needs hotlinking etc
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tantek it's just easier, less work, fewer moving pieces etc. to use plain text for notes
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Jeena so how did you add those images in the middle of the text? http://tantek.com/2013/054/t2/future-dystopia-beijing-blade-runner
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aaronpk uses plaintext for notes with hotlinking and some other matching of URLs
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Jeena or did you just replace the image urls?
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bear I can see using markdown for notes - as twitter allows images and other metadata for a twitter post
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tantek Jeena - autoembedding per http://indiewebcamp.com/note#Autolinking_and_embedding
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tantek bear - you don't need markdown for that
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /authorship (+479) "/* Determining */ Added issues section with tentative non-h-card author property issue" (view diff)
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tantek barnaby's up late but not on irc
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KevinMarks talking of China as bladerunner, did you see: https://twitter.com/pourmecoffee/status/424257973163003904
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tantek Loqi?
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Loqi who, me?
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bear sure, I get you can embed everything as html in the text, but for me it makes more sense to have location as metadata that is distinct and leave the note text alone
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Jeena hehe KevinMarks I just read about it but seeing it is more scary
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aaronpk I think Loqi isn't fetching the tweet text for the same reason indieauth.com is having trouble with twitter
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tantek bear I don't understand that statement
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bear if I get what your saying: "hey this is a twitter post. {geo: "philadelphia, pa"}"
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tantek KevinMarks that's really messed up
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tantek no I put such "meta" in the HTML h-entry
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tantek around the note text
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KevinMarks I'm somewhat suspicious as the source is the daily mail
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bear ah - see I would be creating a note as text and then converting it to html for the web view and sending it to twitter as the POSSE
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KevinMarks such meta, very schematic
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tantek bear - bingo. the #cassis.js autolink function turns the note as text into HTML for the web view
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bear so we are circling the same point - gotcha
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tantek Falcon gets such "meta" information such as u-in-reply-to, and then converts it to whatever Twitter needs for its proprietary API
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tantek but all such meta information is part of the h-entry in the HTML
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tantek no janky { } in the content/storage
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tantek all simple markup, easily editable and viewable in the browser
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bear yea, I think that is going to always be a distinction between my view and probably the rest of y'all - HTML centric for the source data
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tantek well there's a couple of dominant approaches currently
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Jeena but you're not writing the whole h-entry html by hand, so you need to store stuff like location in some database or flat file, how do you do that?
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tantek in the flat file world
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tantek 1. HTML + h-entry storage (myself, not sure who else)
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tantek 2. markdown storage (aaronpk, not sure who else)
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bear me
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tantek might want to ask barnabywalters and benwerd how they store things
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KevinMarks anyone on github, presumably
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tantek including meta stuffs
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tantek I think they all use their own extensions to markdown for storing meta stuff
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aaronpk uses a combination of markdown for entry content and a yaml header for meta stuff like location and tags
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tantek for me, it's a simple matter of using the respective microformats to store extra properties
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tantek aaronpk - but that yaml header has a list of properties that you've made up right?
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bear I have been using markdown + json/python-dict
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Jeena I have all the meta stuff in the database in different columns
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tantek does anyone using markdown actually use the same yaml headers?
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tantek whereas anyone using h-entry can read my storage files
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aaronpk tantek: made up, but roughly based on h-entry
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tantek including all the other properties
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tantek aaronpk - yeah, that's one problem I see with the markdown approach - it requires custom invention which may appear roughly similar but in reality is not portable
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aaronpk yeah
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bear my reasoning is that the storage format rarely needs changing, but i've often had to change the web output as I grok more about mf2
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aaronpk same
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tantek bear aaronpk - I don't understand what that has to do with this question
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tantek Falcon full reads in / parses the microformats from the storage files, then fully reconstructs *new* markup in post permalinks
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Jeena bear I agree, there was already a change in the HTML from microformats to microformats 2
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tantek Jeena, bear you're not making any sense
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tantek that's not HTML storage works
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tantek not *how
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KevinMarks does the question come down to storing data that doesn't currently fit in a microformat, or data that is not expected to be human readable?
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bear I (up until now) have never considered HTML as a data storage format
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Jeena yeah I assume we're not really used to the fact that someone would use HTML for data storage
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tantek bear - it's the most reliable rich text data storage format
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tantek long lived etc.
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bear my years of doing data storage *before* HTML was even around would disagree with you
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tantek if so, name your format
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bear ascii
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tantek that's not rich text
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Jeena hehe
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tantek and yes, I agree with the stability of ASCII7, and today, UTF8
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tantek but again, not rich text
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tantek it's why I listed ASCII first here: http://tantek.com/log/2006/06.html#d17t2231
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bear I am coming around to your thoughts - it's just not a pleasant fit to my current world view :)
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tantek bear - I don't think there is any conflict there. I view HTML as an extension to / layer on top of ASCII (or today, UTF8)
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KevinMarks What you think of as the natural representation really does colour your thinking
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bear yep, it is a perception bias on my side
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tantek KevinMarks - such "colouring" is only for short term (under 10 yr) storage of data
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Jeena I'm still in the old world in my head where the Pingback spec would specify a regex because most of the people used PHP (including me) which didn't have a SGML parser. And even using the XML parser with DOM in PHP4 was just so painfull
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KevinMarks we already have this with SQL tables vs JSON worldview, and the fights that causes
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tantek Kevinmarks - that's ok, SQL tables are known to suck at long term storage (tons of data corruption, e.g. character sets, dates, times. etc)
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Jeena GIF will be here forever!
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tantek and JSON is too young to count
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KevinMarks heh
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bear I view JSON in the same light as SQL
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tantek JSON is just the replacement for XML which is effectively dead
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KevinMarks remembers IFF
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tantek something may (likely) come along that will similarly replace JSON
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tantek such "programmery" formats are always ephemeral
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bear sits on his hands and doesn't respond to the XML comment
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aaronpk agrees about JSON
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aaronpk that something will replace it and JSON will look like XML does today
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KevinMarks I really should put something up at xmlrip.com - I bought that domain about 7 years ago
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Jeena just two years ago I've been working with XML in the form of SOAP, what a pain in the ass ^^
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tantek aaronpk - all those programmers that love JSON so much are too young to remember when their previous elders loved XML so much.
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tantek great domain
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bear amen to that
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aaronpk :)
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KevinMarks JSON is handy as it is a natural fit for dynamic scripting langauges
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Jeena yeah, and traversing the DOM is everything but natural
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tantek heh
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KevinMarks defines he primitives that they naturally have
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KevinMarks what replaces JSON will be something that represents a newer coding model
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Jeena binary plists!
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aaronpk throws up in his mouth a little
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tantek KevinMarks - I would have captioned that image: "Scene from Burning Man with art exhibit? No, smog-ridden Beijing with televised sun"
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KevinMarks Google has been pushing protobuffers
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Jeena (I wrote a rails plugin which translated ActionRecords to binary plists to be consumed _really_ easy by a iPhone application)
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KevinMarks I wonder if it is really the sunrise being shown or just a shot from an ad
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KevinMarks binary plists mange to be more annoying than IFF
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Jeena https://github.com/jeena/plistifier
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tantek And there's always CSV/TSV ;)
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Jeena not if you work on iOS or OS X, then you just do NSArray *posts = [[NSArray alloc] initWithContentsOfURL:url];
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KevinMarks never CSV, always TSV
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Jeena this is quite fun, 5 people are discussing storage formats and there are 10 opinions :D
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tantek reloads indiewebify.me hoping that CSS has been fixed...
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Jeena My browser is always quite narrow and the text ist out of the viewport on the left
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KevinMarks interesting, just got pinged about this: https://stripe.com/blog/ctf3-coming-soon
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bear it's going to be a curious internal debate for me - storing the baseline html for any IW item or markdown+metadata
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KevinMarks bear, even if you have metadata you can represent it in mf-2 now
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bear yea, that was (I think) what tantek was trying to tell me
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bear but up until a couple minutes ago, my bias was preventing that nugget from entering my brain
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tantek Jeena - yeah that problem
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tantek don't know when it broke
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KevinMarks if you really want it to be separately parseable, you could put the human stuff in HTML/mf2 and the hidden stuff in a <script> declaration
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tantek makes me not want to link to indiewebify until it's fixed :(
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Jeena I have content in a MySQL database from april 2004, live on my (older german) blog
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Jeena http://jeenaparadies.net/weblog/2004/apr/ersteintrag
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tantek KevinMarks - that's a recipe fo the hidden <script> stuff to get out of sync or rot
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KevinMarks yep
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tantek chuckles a bit at Jeena's post's reference to the "Box-Model-Bug" ;)
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Jeena haha
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bear hmm, hidden stuff should probably still have human-readable part with parseable data like everything else
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bear so why not include it in the html and then hide as required during presentation
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KevinMarks exactly, bear.
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bear watches the light start to glow above his head
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KevinMarks You don't really want to run 2 different parsers
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bear *nod* I was enforcing that by going bears-markdown -> html
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KevinMarks It was an issue with microformats-1
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Jeena tantek back then I was writing about the "Box-Model-Bug" and today I'm using box-sizing: border-box
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Jeena everywhere I can.
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tantek Jeena, guess who proposed "box-sizing" ;)
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KevinMarks I had a system based around XOXO <-> JSON for a while
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Jeena was it you?!
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tantek :D
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Jeena wohoo!
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Jeena that should have been the standard from the beginning
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tantek.com created /storage (+1408) "stub based on some discussion" (view diff)
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KevinMarks hmm - roundtripping form mf2 to JSON and back, you still need to know types of fields that mf2 supports and JSON doesn't
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jkphl.is edited /How_to_set_up_web_sign-in_on_your_own_domain (+216) "/* Known Issues */" (view diff)
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tantek Ok opinionated storage peoples - document which form of storage you're using in the code on your own domain: http://indiewebcamp.com/storage
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tantek KevinMarks - that's a human-friendliness impedance mismatch
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tantek JSON (like XML) doesn't care about human friendliness
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aaronpk JSON cares a little bit
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tantek so that information is "lost" in all translations to JSON
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aaronpk that was one of the motivations of JSON in the first place