#indiewebcamp 2014-01-31

2014-01-31 UTC
snarfed, caseorganic and benjaminchait joined the channel
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tantek thanks snarfed - that's a good capture / start
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tantek you're right, one could receive them in either order
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tantek I wonder if it makes sense for a webmention receiver to keep ahold of the dups as little mini-links in their UI - e.g. (also on Twitter, also on Facebook) but maybe as tiny icons instead of words, e.g. (also on t f)
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tantek so, clustering dupes rather than de-duping
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aaronpk i was planning on doing that eventually
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tantek another approach could be to *always* attempt original-post-discovery on webmentions, and then even if you *only* receive a Bridgy webmention of a POSSE tweet copy, go use the original post instead of the link to the Bridgy permalink.
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snarfed re cluster links, sure! similar to visible rel-syndication links
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tantek that way the POSSE reply -> Bridgy -> backfeed webmention essentially becomes a circuitous but automatic webmention for the original!
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aaronpk i like it!
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snarfed gotta love unintentional plumbing
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tantek and worst case, it just becomes an added layer of notification redundancy / reliability
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tantek re cluster links - you can still do that by doing rel-syndication discovery on an original reply, and copying over those links as well
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aaronpk man i can't wait til i have some more time for this
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tantek you don't need to wait to get notifications of them, or store them.
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aaronpk this is gonna be awesome
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tantek that should theoretically be *less* work than de-duplication
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Jeena Cosmos will be awesome https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xb5tdqplTqQ
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tantek that too
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caseorganic.com edited /2013/UK (-13) "/* Creators */" (view diff)
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tantek yay for indieweb hosted images!
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Loqi :D
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tantek um well, but the URL has to not 404 ;)
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caseorganic tantek: yeah i know - working on that :)
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tantek caseorganic - order of operations!
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Jeena ah no wonder caseorganic.com looks familiar, it is powered by p3k
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caseorganic Jeena: yep!
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tantek dependency sorting!
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Jeena interesting, I kind of thought everybody is only using their own software yet
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tantek Jeena, both p3k and idno have multiple users now
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Jeena very cool!
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Jeena A couple of people asked if my software was open source too already. (it isn't yet)
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tantek.com edited /webmention (+722) "/* Issues */ always do original post discovery on the source URL as a means of preferring original posts and automatic de-duping among replies and POSSE copies" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk - captured the "prefer original posts" way of handling potential de-duping
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caseorganic Jeena: i'd love to see it. i joined late yesterday and some discussion about what you built
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#Issues
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tantek Jeena - how about open sourcing at least bits of it?
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caseorganic.com edited /site-deaths () "(-2675) /* Upcoming */ Removed site deaths from "Upcoming" that had already passed. Added Incredible Labs acquisition by Yahoo!" (view diff)
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tantek oh no - don't remove them! verify them and archive them by year!
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tantek with citations for each!
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Jeena yeah I will some day, I just need to clean up the code, I have some API keys and secrets there which I need to put somewhere outside first.
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tantek revert revert!
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tantek (well really just one revert ;) )
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tantek (caseorganic)
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Jeena I made a new category in my feed reader: IndieWeb, so I can stay updated until we get some better way to do it ^^
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Jeena and I also need more content for Webmentions :p
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caseorganic tantek: that's what i'm doing - hold on
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tantek gah! transtional consistency!
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tantek s/transtional/transactional
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Loqi tantek meant to say: gah! transactional consistency!
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caseorganic.com edited /site-deaths (+2455) "/* 2013 */ Moved future shutdowns to past and ordered them by date." (view diff)
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@genehack @vanderwal Oh shit, I need to do that too. Find anything good? Probably going to use IndieAuth... (twitter.com/_/status/429053768898854913)
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Jeena rofl check out the Science poster on the wall in that comic https://twitter.com/sweden/status/429045420988588032
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@AndySylvester99 Working with Webmention for WordPress - video #indieweb http://andysylvester.com/?p=182 (twitter.com/_/status/429096631657443329)
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@indiewebcamp RT @AndySylvester99: Working with Webmention for WordPress - video #indieweb http://andysylvester.com/?p=182 (twitter.com/_/status/429098217175662593)
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@AndySylvester99 My notes from the Portland Homebrew Website meeting #indieweb http://andysylvester.com/?p=195 (twitter.com/_/status/429104460317462528)
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andysylvester.com edited /events/2014-01-29-homebrew-website-club (+110) "/* Blog posts */" (view diff)
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andysylvester.com edited /events/2014-01-29-homebrew-website-club (+26) "/* Blog posts */" (view diff)
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@veganstraightedge @jakeboxer Meet @t. Tantek works on #indieweb / #microformats stuff and at Mozilla on standards. Jake works at GitHub and is a funny dude. (twitter.com/_/status/429107279946727425)
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caseorganic.com edited /2014/Guest_List (+15) "/* Creators */ Added hosted profile image for Caseorganic 128px" (view diff)
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AndySylvester99 Tantek, I saw in the IRC logs yesterday that you were looking for feedback on your indiewebcamp.com updates.
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AndySylvester99 I think it looks good. I did notice that the How section is near the bottom of the page.
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caseorganic.com edited /2013/Guest_List (+5) "/* Creators */ Added hosted profile image for Caseorganic 128px" (view diff)
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AndySylvester99 When I look at the top, I think there is a clear "call to action" (own your data).
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AndySylvester99 It might be good to highlight the "how" in that same area, to help people see what they can do to be a part of the IndieWeb.
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AndySylvester99 Thanks for working on this...
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caseorganic is thinking of going to indiewebcamp sf
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caseorganic.com edited /2014/SF (+356) "/* Regrets */ Added Caseorganic.com to regrets list as IndieWebCamp SF conflicts with Esri Dev and Partner Conferences" (view diff)
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snarfed thinks caseorganic should
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caseorganic snarfed: me too - unfortunately it conflicts with a work conference. i don't think i'll be able to get out of it this year
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caseorganic snarfed: aaronpk might be able to go
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caseorganic snarfed: i'm thinking of visiting sf the weekend before though
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snarfed caseorganic: got it. before is better than nothing!
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caseorganic snarfed: true! we should meet up regardless
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snarfed sounds good!
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aaronpk i just said this, is it useful? "IndieAuth is basically OAuth plus identity, where identity is your domain"
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caseorganic aaronpk: the word basically there is weird, but i like the sentence otherwise
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caseorganic.com edited /Events (+73) "/* 2014 */ Added slides to New Relic Tech Talk" (view diff)
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Jihaisse Hello
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@avonjdbperfect @drwxjustin iya kalo gue buka di webmention yg lama keliatan tp di hp lama harus scroll down mulu wkwkkwkw (twitter.com/_/status/429198390694400000)
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jonnybarnes if a micropub request is also syndicated to twitter, should that be part of the response from the micropub endpoint? Like a second twitter-location header?
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: my instinct would be no, mark it up with u-syndication in the response body
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jonnybarnes so a micropub endpoint response should be full HTML response?
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: what UI do you want to build which demands it not be?
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barnabywalters one of the reasons micropub is based on form-urlencoded data instead of e.g. JSON or HTML in request bodies is so that it can be tested and implemented using simple static HTML forms
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barnabywalters so it makes sense for the response bodies to also be HTML
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jonnybarnes I've only just got micropub somewhat implemented in my site, so still ironing out kinks. But lets say you log into my site and post to yours, at the moment my site just takes the Location response from your micropub endpoint and redirects you to it
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jonnybarnes I suppose itd then be exposed in your UI if your site succesfully syndicated to twitter
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: yeah, that’s up to the post-creating site to do
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barnabywalters and if the micropub request was happening from, for example, an iOS app, it would need to parse the response for u-syndication links if it wanted to indicate syndication success
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jonnybarnes so am I doing it wrong? if you were to log into mine, the form points to my own site, and my site then makes the API request to yours
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jonnybarnes aaronpk said you were pointing the form straight at the micropub endpoint
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barnabywalters I don’t think there’s anything explicitly wrong with that
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barnabywalters what matters is what the response is
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jonnybarnes and for posting the response would be determined by the micropub endpoint? (just getting things clear in my head)
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: what do you mean?
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glennjones Interesting, I have not followed micropub, but have gone down the JSON route and built a full CRUD API that takes JSON documents for my site.
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glennjones I should try and open it up and document it on the wiki to contrast the two
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Loqi yea
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jonnybarnes so if you logged into my site, your micropub endpoint would create the response with relevant correctly markup'd response, if I logged into your site then my micropub endpoint would make the relevant correctly markup'd response
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jonnybarnes go for it glennjones :)
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jonnybarnes psss, what does CRUD stand for?
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: create, read,update, delete
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barnabywalters https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Create,_read,_update_and_delete
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jonnybarnes ah, so its like a compliment to RESTful HTTP usage
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barnabywalters glennjones: sounds good! yes please do document it
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: well, it’s a generic phrase for being able to do basic stuff with data
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barnabywalters and there are HTTP methods which map roughly to each operation
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barnabywalters REST is more complicated than that though
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jonnybarnes Random question, does bridgy “ping” your webmention endpoint in order to notify you of twitter/facebook/etc posts?
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jonnybarnes i.e. bridgy uses webmentions?
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: yep, bridgy is effectively a microformats2 + webmention shim for silos
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barnabywalters to your site, bridgy makes it look like silos use microformats2 and webmention
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jonnybarnes I really need to get webmention support on my site :(
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jonnybarnes the heard part isnt the webmention part itself, its how do I store these mentions and how do I displa them
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jonnybarnes s/heard/hard
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Loqi jonnybarnes meant to say: the hard part isnt the webmention part itself, its how do I store these mentions and how do I displa them
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: storage is an annoying problem to have
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barnabywalters but the fact that figuring out how to display them is the only other problem is *good* — it means the protocol is simple enough that you can concentrate on making a good experience
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jonnybarnes what'd be cool is if you could have a conversation taking pace on your site where the comments are coming from different sources, some facebook and some twitter for example
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jonnybarnes i dont know if thatd necessarily work
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: unless I’m misunderstanding, that’s what bridgy is doing at the moment
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barnabywalters e.g. on werd.io
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barnabywalters there are indieweb comments as well as comments, likes and reposts from Facebook and twitter
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /Taproot (+1206) "/* Structure */ split storage into mentions and posts, documented Taproot’s mention storage and retrieval process" (view diff)
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: ^^^ I documented my mention storage and retrieval process in case it’s of any use to you
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jonnybarnes cheers, will have a look
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /Taproot (-385) "/* Posts */ removed mention-related content" (view diff)
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Jeena does someone know if tantek shows webmentions for his notes? I did send a webmention to http://tantek.com/2013/293/t2/favorite-by-hand-bot-indieweb-tweets-irc and got back {"result": "Webmention received"} or something like that but I don't see it
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /Taproot (+385) "/* Mentions */ moved mention-related content into the correct place" (view diff)
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barnabywalters Jeena: tantek receives webmentions, IIRC via webmention.io, but doesn’t do anything publicly with them yet
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Jeena ah ok, that is a bit sad :-/ but good to know
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barnabywalters you can see them here: http://webmention.io/api/mentions?target=http://tantek.com/2013/293/t2/favorite-by-hand-bot-indieweb-tweets-irc
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Jeena ok, cool
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barnabywalters hm it would be pretty cool if there was a basic HTML + minimal styling version of that endpoint
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barnabywalters then you could just put that in an iframe and get instant comments
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barnabywalters the endpoint is open, maybe I’ll make that
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Jeena hehe yeah, why not, but I can see all my attempts here, damn, It didn't work well. Now I moved away from apache and passenger to nginx and puma via unix sockets which works much better for my rails app
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Jeena btw. last night I wrote a lengthy article about my experience with the IndieWeb https://jeena.net/indieweb
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@jeena Check out my overview about the #IndieWeb experience I had yet https://jeena.net/indieweb /cc @ArturoVM @peakwinter (https://jeena.net/notes/45) (twitter.com/_/status/429222871836397568)
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@cjk101010 RT @jeena: Check out my overview about the #IndieWeb experience I had yet https://jeena.net/indieweb /cc @ArturoVM @peakwinter (http://t.co/vf… (twitter.com/_/status/429223348267393025)
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www.obloid.org edited /events/2014-01-29-homebrew-website-club (+24) "/* RSVP */ Perry Wagle has site now" (view diff)
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wagle >>> couldn't get google profiles to work <<<
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@ShaneHudson RT @jeena: Check out my overview about the #IndieWeb experience I had yet https://jeena.net/indieweb /cc @ArturoVM @peakwinter (http://t.co/vf… (twitter.com/_/status/429232640513015808)
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www.obloid.org created /User:Www.obloid.org (+51) "Section 1" (view diff)
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www.obloid.org edited /User:Www.obloid.org (+112) "/* Perry Wagle */ section 2" (view diff)
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www.obloid.org edited /User:Www.obloid.org (+3) "/* Projects */ sigh" (view diff)
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@new_wp_plugins New #wordpress plugin: IndieWeb- http://wordpress.org/plugins/indieweb/ IndieWeb for WordPress! (twitter.com/_/status/429238426068475904)
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obloid.org edited /events/2014-01-29-homebrew-website-club (-4) "/* RSVP */ www is obsolete, right?" (view diff)
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obloid.org moved /User:Www.obloid.org to /User:Obloid.org "User was (already) renamed. Am I making a mess?"
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obloid.org edited /User:Obloid.org (-3) "/* Perry Wagle */ cascade d' changes" (view diff)
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obloid.org edited /User:Obloid.org (+4) "/* Projects */ tweak" (view diff)
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wagle aaronpk: user "Www.obloid.org" needs to be deleted (was renamed to Obloid.org)
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@BarnabyWalters @jeena great writeup, and congratulations on getting so much built so fast! #indieweb (http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4UMDQN/) (twitter.com/_/status/429243775182209024)
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jonnybarnes why does aaronpk have a native webmention endpoint, but then send pingbacks to webmention.io? is webmention.io turning pingbacks into webmentions for him?
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: yep, it’s converting ping backs into webmentions so he doesn’t have to parse XMLRPC requests
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barnabywalters http://webmention.io/#forwarding
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jonnybarnes thats pretty sweet
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barnabywalters I’m using it too
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barnabywalters still have to send XMLRPC ping backs, but that’s just a matter of throwing some strings together, instead of actual XML parsing
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obloid.org edited /User:Obloid.org (+83) "try to reformat id page" (view diff)
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@WordPress_OK #WordPress #Plugin IndieWeb #wp http://wordpress.org/plugins/indieweb/#post-63393 (twitter.com/_/status/429245598702010368)
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@11mMagazin #WordPress #Plugin IndieWeb #WT http://wordpress.org/plugins/indieweb/#post-63393 (twitter.com/_/status/429245940521000960)
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pfefferle Hey Jihaisse
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pfefferle Jihaisse do you have some time to rewrite your https://github.com/jihaisse/indieAuth-links plugin using a class instead of only functions?
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Jeena I'm going through my blog posts and see that about 25% of the videos I embeded have been removed from YouTube already.
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@32i_Blogs #WordPress IndieWeb #WT #Plugin http://wordpress.org/plugins/indieweb/#post-63393 (twitter.com/_/status/429246971564789760)
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obloid.org uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:pwagle.jpg]]""
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pfefferle dumb auto re-tweeters
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pfefferle Jeena nice blogpost btw. thanks for sharing
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Jeena thanks :)
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@pfefferle RT @jeena: Check out my overview about the #IndieWeb experience I had yet https://jeena.net/indieweb /cc @ArturoVM @peakwinter (http://t.co/vf… (twitter.com/_/status/429247829794897920)
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@BuddypressPlugs #plugin IndieWeb #wordpress http://wordpress.org/plugins/indieweb/#post-63393 (twitter.com/_/status/429247854197342208)
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Jihaisse pfefferle: hum, I'm not quite good in php and I don't have much time this days
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barnabywalters pfefferle: OOI what is the benefit of rewriting as a class?
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Jihaisse because, c'est la classe
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barnabywalters Jihaisse: lol
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pfefferle barnabywalters it's easier to also use it in a bundle by only surrounding it with "if (!class_exists("ClassName")) :"
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pfefferle nothing more nothing less :)
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Jeena yeah mostly namespacing and then perhaps context if there is some
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barnabywalters pfefferle: a bundle? is that a wordpress thing?
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barnabywalters as in a bundle of plugins?
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pfefferle no... I want to bundle all plugins into a single one, without rewriting or changing the code... and I need a way to prevent errors if someone installs the single plugin and the bundle...
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Jeena hm but as far as I see it is written like this because all those WordPress hooks like add_filter, add_action, etc. need a function name as a string? (omg)
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pfefferle Jeena you can also pass array("ClassName", "functionName");
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Jeena but not a object I assume?
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pfefferle you can also pass objects
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pfefferle no problem
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Jeena ok
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pfefferle array($this, "functionName") for example
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Jeena ok, that would be the right thing to do then
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pfefferle it's not THAT bad ;)
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Jeena hehe
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barnabywalters PHP has first class functions. they’re weird, but they work :)
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Jeena barnabywalters you mean the lambda thingy how they implement cousures?
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barnabywalters Jeena: not so much, I mean using strings and arrays to represent functions
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barnabywalters actual closure literals, and the objects they create, are much saner
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Jeena yeah
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@tobiastom RT @jeena: Check out my overview about the #IndieWeb experience I had yet https://jeena.net/indieweb /cc @ArturoVM @peakwinter (http://t.co/vf… (twitter.com/_/status/429267023252946944)
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barnabywalters okay, made a simple little webmention.io-rendering service, based on my own note UI
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barnabywalters http://waterpigs.co.uk/services/webmention-io-comments/?url=http://tantek.com/2013/293/t2/favorite-by-hand-bot-indieweb-tweets-irc
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barnabywalters !tell tantek it occurred to me that an instant webmention.io -> embeddable HTML service could be made easily, so I did, e.g. http://waterpigs.co.uk/services/webmention-io-comments/?url=http://tantek.com/2013/293/t2/favorite-by-hand-bot-indieweb-tweets-irc — feel free to use as a stopgap before implementing native webmention support in Falcon :)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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Jeena neat, but where is the <!DOCTYPE html> and <title>? ;)
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barnabywalters Jeena: this is HTML5, I leave them out for little services like this :)
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barnabywalters I suppose they could be added…
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Jeena browsers render it as HTML 2.2 if you don't have the doctype
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Jeena and the title is not optional, even in HTML5 :)
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barnabywalters Jeena: see http://developers.whatwg.org/semantics.html#the-title-element
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Jeena to leave out <html>, <head> and <body> is ok
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barnabywalters “If it's reasonable for the Document to have no title, then the title element is probably not required. See the head element's content model for a description of when the element is required.”
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barnabywalters “probably” is quite vague ;)
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Jeena interesting
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barnabywalters and considering this is supposed to be used for embedding, I think it’s reasonable to leave the title out
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barnabywalters wonders what browsers to in the case of multiple title elements
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barnabywalters e.g. if someone embedded this raw, not in an iframe, would a <title> in the embedded code override the real one?
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barnabywalters nope, looks like FF at least is sane about multiple title elements, using the first
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barnabywalters okay, fixed
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Jeena can you remove one of the webmentions, I just had problems with sending so I did it a couple of times ^^
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glennjones.net edited /User:Glennjones.net (+876) (view diff)
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Jeena I'm still buffled about the optional title note
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barnabywalters what makes you think browsers treat <!doctype-less HTML as HTML 2.2? Which browsers do that?
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barnabywalters in my experience sane browsers (i.e. not old IE) will try to parse HTML using a HTML5 parser in most cases
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Jeena IE as far as I remember goes into quirks mode
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barnabywalters seeing as it’s built for back-compatibility
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barnabywalters ah, okay. probably worth always including the doctype to handle that case then
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@glennjones Got my blog importing my full twitter history with conversations, i.e. http://glennjones.net/notes/2014-01-23-3 #indieweb #backfeed (twitter.com/_/status/429270880481718273)
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@_DECAF Interesting: “@jeena: Check out my overview about the #IndieWeb experience I had yet https://jeena.net/indieweb (https://jeena.net/notes/45)” (twitter.com/_/status/429274439533232128)
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Jeena glennjones your software doesn't implement webmentions?
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glennjones Not yet I am working on the backfeed, my main interest to reclaim my content first - then move on to support web mentions
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Jeena I see, then here is a manual webmention: https://jeena.net/notes/46
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Jeena I like the look of the twitter content on your website
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Jeena but I am sure that the way we use twitters content is not how they intended it or even allow
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@eebrah RT @glennjones: Got my blog importing my full twitter history with conversations, i.e. http://glennjones.net/notes/2014-01-23-3 #indieweb #backfeed (twitter.com/_/status/429276801547128833)
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Jeena I'm sure most of you have seen https://dev.twitter.com/terms/display-requirements already?
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barnabywalters Jeena: indeed we have :)
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barnabywalters unenforcable
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Jeena what they can do is just shut down the thing bridgy uses
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barnabywalters yeah, then we’ll start a bunch more bridgies
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Jeena hehe
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Jeena but the consistent user experience!!11
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barnabywalters heh
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glennjones I am sort of getting around some display-requirements by not using there API. My written on my site are sync out from my site or import from a twitter archive file
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Jeena ah this is interesting, I didn't know that but that is quite cool actually. How often do you import from the archive file?
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Jeena and btw glennjones your <title> is empty on http://glennjones.net/notes/2014-01-31-1 ;)
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@Zatnosk RT @jeena: Check out my overview about the #IndieWeb experience I had yet https://jeena.net/indieweb /cc @ArturoVM @peakwinter (http://t.co/vf… (twitter.com/_/status/429279720644313088)
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@ArturoVM RT @jeena: Check out my overview about the #IndieWeb experience I had yet https://jeena.net/indieweb /cc @ArturoVM @peakwinter (http://t.co/vf… (twitter.com/_/status/429280549044109312)
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aaronpk !tell barnabywalters that's awesome that you just made the webmention comments thing!!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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@aaronpk @jeena This is a great writeup! And congrats on all your progress you made so quickly! #indieweb (http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2014/01/31/1/indieweb) (twitter.com/_/status/429291306234298368)
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Jeena aaronpk what can I do so our websites can talk via WebMentions to each other?
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aaronpk you accept webmentions right now, yes?
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aaronpk oh right my server is having SSL issues
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Jeena yes I do, and yeah I'm not sure what I can do about the SSL issue
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Loqi tantek: barnabywalters left you a message 1 hour, 58 minutes ago: it occurred to me that an instant webmention.io -> embeddable HTML service could be made easily, so I did, e.g. http://waterpigs.co.uk/services/webmention-io-comments/?url=http://tantek.com/2013/293/t2/favorite-by-hand-bot-indieweb-tweets-irc — feel free to use as a stopgap before implementing native webmention support in Falcon :)
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aaronpk Jeena: it's looking more and more like this is some problem with my server, like an outdated list of root certs that I can't figure out how to update
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aaronpk yeah oh man, stuff is failing all over
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aaronpk i might have to rebuild this server from scratch
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@jj_telles RT @benwerd: Friends asking me about a London chapter of Homebrew Website Club. Is there something close? #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/429311694025027584)
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snarfed aaronpk: ugh. :( condolences
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snarfed firefighting side projects during day job working hours is a lose-lose tradeoff :/ i've been there!
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aaronpk yeah also this server has a ton of stuff, my site, amber's, indieauth, oauth.net, and a few other projects
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aaronpk so it's a project to move things
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snarfed bleh :(
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aaronpk i should probably start splitting things up better
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Loqi definitely
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aaronpk you too loqi, you're on there too
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aaronpk is it getting crowded in there?
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snarfed loqi has a great trigger sweet spot
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snarfed he responds to surface level stuff, and some stuff just under the surface, but often manages to keep quiet whenever anyone digs below that
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snarfed clever bot
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aaronpk he holds up well to trolling
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snarfed exactly
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snarfed Loqi++
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Loqi Loqi has 224 karma
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Jeena Ryan Barrett send a webmention to https://jeena.net/indieweb but it kind of went wrong a bit and the url goes to his homepage instead to the note and I can't find the note on his website
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Jeena it happened once already a week ago or something
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Jeena snarfed could you give me the URL to your note so I can change it in my database?
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snarfed Jeena: sure! http://snarfed.org/2014-01-31_indieweb-join-us-jeena-net
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snarfed (for the future, replies are on the archive page, http://snarfed.org/archive
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snarfed they're only hidden from the front page)
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Jeena but this one is not there?
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Jeena the on at the top is "Homebrew Website Club on Wednesday"
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snarfed ah, over aggressive cache for non-logged-in users. you're right, sorry. i'll clear that one and put fixing it on my todo list
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Jeena ah ok
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snarfed apologies if my markup caused your parser trouble. more info in http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http://snarfed.org/2014-01-31_indieweb-join-us-jeena-net , but you probably already knew that :P
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Jeena hm yeah I need to check what is wrong with my way of parsing it
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Jeena huch mine is even worse, nothing shows up here http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https://jeena.net/notes/48
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aaronpk Jeena: that's my SSL problem again :)
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Jeena ah ok hehe
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Jeena phuch
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snarfed http://waterpigs.co.uk/php-mf2/ is an alternative
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snarfed forgot if he has a version that takes a url somewhere.
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Jeena there is one weird thing about your microformats json at http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http://snarfed.org/2014-01-31_indieweb-join-us-jeena-net there is no author
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aaronpk see http://indiewebcamp.com/authorship
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Jeena or no forget it
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Jeena there is hm it is just my parser which doesn't find it
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aaronpk ah nvm then
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Jeena mf2 outputs the same structure for both http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4UMDQN/ and http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http://snarfed.org/2014-01-31_indieweb-join-us-jeena-net but the parser I use Microformats2 from G5 doesn't output the author on snarfeds link, I assume there is some bug in it or something
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aaronpk i believe the G5 one is not as complete
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aaronpk not sure though. would be nice if we get this cross-platform test suite wokring so we can easily compare implementations
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snarfed my rates for QA testing are very reasonable. :P
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Jeena the difference in the HTML I see is that one uses p-author and the other does not
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Jeena I assume many more people use the mf2 one compared to the G5 one, but that is what I am here for, for the edge cases :-p
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snarfed interop is important!
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snarfed painful, but it's definitely good to have more implementations
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Jeena yep when I add p-author to snarfed's html then my parser understands it, so let us check aaronpk authorship link!
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snarfed actually, i think you might be right
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snarfed i see class="author" in my code in at least one place, instead of class="p-author"
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snarfed k, fixed in my markup. jeena, maybe try again?
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Jeena same url works now, wohoo!
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snarfed yay! thanks for finding that and sticking with it
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Loqi woot
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snarfed much appreciated
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Jeena so it was a bug in your code and it should be p-author instad of just author?
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snarfed yup!
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snarfed i think, at least
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Jeena ah it says: "For backward compatibility, microformats 2 parsers SHOULD detect the following root class name and property names ..."
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snarfed ah, ok
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snarfed makes sense then
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Jeena but the G5 parser doesn't implement the backwards compatibility stuff yet: "Not Implemented: backwards compatable support for microformats v1"
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snarfed good sleuthing
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snarfed hey, can you try once more
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snarfed i added back the author class, alongside p-author
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snarfed just want to make sure that doesn't confuse g5
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Jeena yes, works without problems
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aaronpk hooray!
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snarfed great. thank you!
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EHLOVader aaronpk, you are the one running the ssl signing right?
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aaronpk yes
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EHLOVader how hard was that to roll out
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EHLOVader would it be simple to handle on your own
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aaronpk depends on how much you know about ssl
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EHLOVader it is just passing files through openssl right?
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aaronpk the actual amount of code is very small
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EHLOVader yeah
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aaronpk setting up the root authority is the hardest part
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aaronpk i'd be happy to publish this all somewhere, but it wouldn't be pretty
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EHLOVader ok
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EHLOVader I don't mind slumming it with code
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EHLOVader ;) looking into it for a friends project, and a possible thing for me to do to contribute
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EHLOVader did I share it here before?
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EHLOVader getprotobox.com
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EHLOVader basically it would be neat to offer a signing service built into it, to include the ssl inside the ansible itself
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EHLOVader so I guess it would also have to be MIT license compatible
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EHLOVader I am ehlovader everywhere, github, bitbucket, gmail... etc if you wanted to not share it in the public but don't mind me seeing it and using it/basing other code on it
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EHLOVader I could even PR any improvements back to you if you want, I will probably need more explicit errors and return values for the signing part
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aaronpk i'd be happy to. i unfortunately didn't give myself a writeup of how I did it, but I do have a pile of files I could share with you
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EHLOVader lol
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aaronpk although fair warning, a lot of paths are hard-coded
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EHLOVader I did see something somewhere, an article on the same/similar thing
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EHLOVader yeah, like 5 possible sites/guides in the first five results on the CA part, but I didnt' know about the automation of the signing
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aaronpk oh yeah
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EHLOVader I wouldn't even be giving them the chance to make a CSR it would do that all internally
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aaronpk you'd ship them both the cert and the private key then?
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EHLOVader yup
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aaronpk i.e. generate a private key for them?
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EHLOVader yeah, these are dev boxs
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aaronpk why not just self sign at that point?
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EHLOVader here i will show you
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EHLOVader http://getprotobox.com/box/Dk/raw
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EHLOVader they already have the details you need in the files
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EHLOVader so they have the hostname, servernames and aliases..
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EHLOVader and then the certificate content could be included in there with it
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aaronpk here, this is the worst posible way I could send this to you quick
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aaronpk https://gist.github.com/aaronpk/f193641cc45cd21f766c
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aaronpk that's the web part which accepts CSRs and emails back signed certs
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EHLOVader lol
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EHLOVader ok great, thanks
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aaronpk should give you the idea
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snarfed aaronpk: nah, email would be worst
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snarfed email with an attached .doc
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aaronpk ha
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EHLOVader I am receiving a fax right now
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EHLOVader did you get my number?
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aaronpk here let me fax you this perl script
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EHLOVader ok, a colleague picked up the phone
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EHLOVader sorry can you resend that
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snarfed no worse than perling you this fax script
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EHLOVader oh it is busy, sorry we don't have call waiting here in the 90s
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EHLOVader can you wait?
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EHLOVader lol
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snarfed lol
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EHLOVader relevant http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMLH_QyPTYM
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EHLOVader aaronpk, if you ever wanted to automate the CSR thing http://weblogic-wonders.com/weblogic/2011/01/04/automation-of-open-ssl-csrcertificate-sign-request-creation/
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EHLOVader add a "feeling lucky" button to your project there
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aaronpk fills in random values for city/state/country? lol
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EHLOVader not sure
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EHLOVader btw, do you need all of those?
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aaronpk not really, but it'll look weird without them if anyone looks at the cert
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EHLOVader I often left lots of them out o_0
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EHLOVader hmm
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EHLOVader people give me weird looks already
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aaronpk I actually wouldn't use the automated CSR generation, because I want all my certs on this machine signed with the same key
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EHLOVader oh
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EHLOVader interesting
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EHLOVader so wait
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EHLOVader you can csr from one key uh
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aaronpk er I didn't say that right
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EHLOVader huh
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EHLOVader for different domains
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aaronpk but yeah you can make a CSR from an existing key
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aaronpk for different domains
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EHLOVader hmm
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EHLOVader wow that could get really complicated huh
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EHLOVader interesting
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aaronpk yay ssl is fun
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Loqi yay!
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EHLOVader loqi is a pushover for ssl huh
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Loqi dude
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gRegorLove sweet, Loqi
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KartikPrabhu i++
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Loqi i has 13 karma
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Jeena haha EHLOVader this video is great :D
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@mrmzholland finally managed to get webmentions working on my website #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/429354587254841344)
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EHLOVader aaronpk, found a vagrant box that does the self signing itself also https://github.com/Varying-Vagrant-Vagrants/VVV/blob/master/provision/provision.sh#L232-L246
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EHLOVader looks like they rely on the interactive shell at provision time, which is something I won't be doing
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tantek snarfed, my Twitter faves are showing up via Bridgy on Adactio's blogpost and I think his parser is having some challenges with the Bridgy permlinks! http://adactio.com/journal/6663/#comment-container
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snarfed indeed it is!
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snarfed the duplication is especially interesting
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snarfed may be the first site i've seen that doesn't handle multiple webmentions for the same reply
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tantek I faved two different tweets that linked to his post.
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tantek this is where the "loose" original post discovery algorithm may be providing false positives
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snarfed ah, you're right, i missed that the original tweet ids are different
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tantek though I think your approach is the right one
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tantek because people like "activity" on their stuff in general, as long as it isn't spam
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snarfed yeah, this kind of high volume backfeed raises lots of subtle cases that we have yet to think about
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snarfed true, activity generally is welcomed
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aaronpk as long as it's presented well!
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snarfed !tell adactio we're discussing the webmentions that brid.gy sent to your site here: http://adactio.com/journal/6663/#comment-container . feel free to read logs and weigh in!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek more activity provides more motivation to present it better ;)
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snarfed aaronpk: right. and i really really appreciate that webmentions are decoupled from whether/how to present them
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snarfed tantek: true!
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tantek also - I wonder if better than sending a webmention for the fave, would be sending a webmention for the tweet that *linked* to the blog post - as that's more like a "comment"
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aaronpk pretty soon brid.gy will be sending webmentions all over the place
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snarfed tantek: yeah, i think we've discussed that before. i was reluctant because i wanted to avoid sending for POSSE posts, and my initial survey a bit ago saw that rel-syndication adoption was low
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snarfed open to reconsidering though
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tantek snarfed - but if we put the burden of original post discovery of replies on the receiver, then it should be fine for Bridgy (or anyone) to send webmentions of POSSE replies.
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tantek per the discussion yesterday
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tantek darn I need a wiki permalink for that
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snarfed it's definitely a solution
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snarfed and if the OPD determines that the target post is itself the OP, then it can discard the webmention
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tantek and hypothetical at that ;)
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tantek bingo!
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snarfed right. needs adoption, similar to rel-syndication. i made the initial design choices based on what most people had implemented at the time, and what would give the best signal/noise backfeed
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snarfed i can definitely evolve those as people make their mention handling smarter
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snarfed glad these ideas are on the wiki, that's a first step!
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tantek snarfed - your implementation could also motivate such updating
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snarfed heh, true
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tantek without (much) downside.
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tantek It would just look like slightly more noise/activity in people's webmentions
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tantek and perhaps getting people to think about noise in webmentions in general would be worth it
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tantek kind of like an immune shot
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tantek one in that mindset, I have a feeling we'll figure more things out
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snarfed i have some examples of that noise in older posts of mine, from before bridgy did webmentions
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snarfed will find an example
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snarfed it's an interesting idea. i'll think about it!
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aaronpk an immune shot is a great analogy, heh
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wagle aaronpk: howto delete user "Www.obloid.org" on indiewebcamp website?
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aaronpk uh, I don't know. don't worry about it
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wagle heh..
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wagle waits for the cruft to avalanche
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tantek wagle, if that's you, you can login, edit http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Www.obloid.org and make it a redirect to your new User page
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wagle yeah, its me.. i "renamed" my site to obloid.org in recognition of the new millenium
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Loqi barnabywalters: aaronpk left you a message 6 hours, 11 minutes ago: that's awesome that you just made the webmention comments thing!!
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barnabywalters aaronpk: yay
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Loqi yay!
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barnabywalters the more of these things I make, the easier they become
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tantek barnabywalters - whoa is that an iframe-ready comments embed?
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barnabywalters tantek: yes
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barnabywalters made in about 20 minutes
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tantek um, how much load can your server handle? ;)
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barnabywalters tantek: I will add more caching if problems occur ;)
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tantek and that one example seems to have a duplicate?
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tantek http://waterpigs.co.uk/services/webmention-io-comments/?url=http://tantek.com/2013/293/t2/favorite-by-hand-bot-indieweb-tweets-irc
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barnabywalters that endpoint just visualises whatever mentions are registered
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tantek barnabywalters - but shouldn't it handle UPDATE and DELETE ?
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barnabywalters in this case, I think jeena posted a mention both for the article and a URL which redirects to the article
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barnabywalters tantek: I have no idea, the actual logic behind the endpoint is aaronpk’s — my thing just makes it pretty
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tantek a duplicate webmention is essentially what an UPDATE is - so a receiver is supposed to handle those
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tantek as well as the 410 return = delete
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aaronpk it probably has a different sourceurl
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barnabywalters I think that’s up to webmention.io to implement
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barnabywalters but these have different source URLs
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aaronpk and webmention.io didn't do the de-duping of canonical URL
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tantek aaronpk - if you check this example - they seem to have the same URL http://waterpigs.co.uk/services/webmention-io-comments/?url=http://tantek.com/2013/293/t2/favorite-by-hand-bot-indieweb-tweets-irc
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Jeena it might be a different url, it was a bug in my software
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aaronpk yeah there are two different URLs http://webmention.io/api/links?target=http://tantek.com/2013/293/t2/favorite-by-hand-bot-indieweb-tweets-irc
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barnabywalters tantek: looking at the raw data that seems to not be the case http://webmention.io/api/mentions?target=http://tantek.com/2013/293/t2/favorite-by-hand-bot-indieweb-tweets-irc
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barnabywalters ah aaronpk beat me to it ;)
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Jeena the https://jeena.net/posts/93 one is wrong, it is just for my internal use
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tantek so my point is that whatever is converting that raw data to the links presented in the HTML version should be doing the de-duping
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barnabywalters hm, I think it’s the webmention endpoint’s responsibility to de-dup by resolving redirect URLs
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tantek at the redirect resolution / data layer, before it's converted into HTML
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aaronpk more complicated is the fact that jeena's site serves the same page at both URLs without sending a redirect
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tantek ah, sounds like an implementation tip for the wiki
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Jeena exactly, it is my problem actually
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tantek aaronpk - that's harder
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aaronpk maybe impossible
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tantek it would require that Jeena's posts support rel=canonical
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aaronpk possible with rel=canonical
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tantek and then have original-post-discovery resolve it
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Jeena and I will not send webmentions with the one with /posts/93 anymore
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tantek shall we add rel=canonical resolution to original-post-discovery ?
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Jeena tantek btw. why are you not showing webmentions for your notes? Is it just because you didn't get around implementing it or is there something more?
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tantek didn't get around to implementing yet ;)
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Jeena ok ^^
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barnabywalters if we put rel=canonical discovery in original-post-discovery, it either needs to go after h-entry u-url lookup, or an exception given for twitter.com
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barnabywalters as tweets have rel=canonical pointing to themselves
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barnabywalters or maybe there’s a silo-independent solution by checking for loops…
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tantek Jeena, in rough priority order: http://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon#Working_On
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barnabywalters I think silo-specific stuff is fine, especially as twitter is a special case (requires mf-shim) anyway
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aaronpk mf-shim could remove the offending rel-canonical in that case
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barnabywalters aaronpk: that’s a good point
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barnabywalters we should probably actually document the twitter and Facebook silo-specific steps on /original-post-discovery
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barnabywalters since they’re what it’s used for most
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Loqi yea
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barnabywalters Loqi: get on it
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tantek barnabywalters - rel=canonical to self is ok as a termination condition
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Jeena tantek are you really thinking about copying the iOS UI?
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tantek Jeena - as a prototype
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tantek might do UA check
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barnabywalters tantek, browser sniffing?
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tantek for iOS, and then for any other mobile, something that looks good on FirefoxOS (which will likely look good on Android etc.)
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tantek Jeena - and just the look for doing people-centric-UI
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tantek not all of iOS
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tantek (obv)
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Jeena yeah, I see
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tantek Jeena, part of the point of doing the people-centric-UI with such a seamless looking UI is pretty essential for real-world-testing the idea
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tantek either it will demo/work well and people be excited
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tantek or it won't
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Jeena hehe yeah
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tantek and either way it will help inform more/better design
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tantek doing such on your own (my own) site is part of the whole "selfdogfood" thing
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tantek plus if I'm able to package it in a nice neat HTML+CSS template/module, it might be something that others can try on their site
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Jeena I am thinking about adding a /about page which would be the page someone would use as my people centric page
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Jeena I really don't like the idea to have it on the frontpage of my website
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tantek oh the point is not a people centric *page* but just a people-centric header
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tantek akin to how people have "Elsewhere" sidebars
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tantek the larger idea here is a mobile replacement for "Elsewhere" sidebars
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tantek since sidebars don't work on mobile layout
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Jeena ah ok yeah you see, I'm still confused about the whole thing
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tantek right - and that's ok because it's more an idea than real
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tantek hence an implementation should help make it *less* confusing
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tantek something more concrete to discuss / critique
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Jeena did you read hanslemans article about that? and btw. he asked me on twitter if you're describing the Windows Mobile UI ;
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tantek Jeena - I read the article and I think it misses several points, some of which I made in IRC at the time.
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tantek (e.g. "nothing people-centric on desktop" - FALSE. Instant Message app buddy lists are people-centric)
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tantek e.g. on Adium, iChat, etc.
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aaronpk i miss those
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Jeena yeah even Addressbook.app
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tantek where you click on the person first, and then (optionally) choose a protocol that you're connected over
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tantek the other big omission (from that blog post and Windows Mobile UI) is the TWO PART nature
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tantek Windows UI assumes the person initiating the message/call makes ALL the decisions about which protocol/app to use
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tantek with the indieweb solution I propose, it's two part, the receiver (person with the indiewebsite), and the initiator (the person going to the indiewebsite)
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Jeena hm not if the person who is called does not use a specific protocol
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tantek Jeena - this is all described in the blog post
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tantek second half
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Jeena yeah, I read it twice already ^^
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tantek which I think both you and hanslemans missed
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Jeena hm ok, then I will read it a third time!
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tantek clearly I did a bad job writing it :P
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tantek needs to put fragment IDs on his H2s
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@graue @arturovm @jeena you two have been working hard on this #indieweb stuff. Hope I'll have time to give yr efforts a serious look soon. (twitter.com/_/status/429395009851252736)
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tantek IDs added
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tantek Jeena, this part in particular describes a key differences from Windows mobile etc. http://tantek.com/2013/338/b1/people-focused-mobile-communication-experience#ux-flow
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tantek and the next two sections
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Jeena ok *rereading*
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tantek specifically this is a key difference: ".. in the order that they prefer to be contacted. "
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tantek that using the indieweb introduces
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tantek whereas any client-only solutions (e.g. Windows Mobile) can't solve.
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tantek identification (the next section) is another
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tantek as is Context Enabled Presence
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tantek all those are key experience and interaction differences
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Jeena I read that but it didn't feel like it was that important
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tantek which allow the contactee to be an active part of how the connection is made
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Jeena but I think I understand what you mean
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tantek Jeena - it's absolutely important for solving the "Can we talk?" problem
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tantek which is the very next section
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tantek client only solutions don't solve "Can we talk?"
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Jeena it is like if my addressbook could be updated by you (for your contact data) and prioritize the way you want me to contact you
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Jeena but in a much easier way on a website
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tantek right, we can get a feel for how this works by just updating such info on our own indieweb sites
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tantek next step would be having your addressbook cache some of this information
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tantek from various websites
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Jeena hehe yeah my parents have a paper address book and there under my name they have about 8 phone numbers where all but one is outdated ^^
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tantek but even then - it's ideal if *before* contacting someone your device gets the latest methods of contact (and in order) from the other person (i.e. their website0
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tantek )
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tantek hehe exactly
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Jeena ok, I think I start to understand what you have been talking about in your article now
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tantek that's what happens with more blue-sky like brainstorming articles
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tantek without actual implementation they're harder to "get"
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tantek hence the "Next Steps" :)
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Jeena yeah
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tantek (in the post)
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tantek but I thought it was worth posting the brainstorm publicly to get discussion / interest / feedback
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Jeena yeah and it was, otherwise I wouldn't have even asked you to explain it to me :D
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@Johannes_Ernst @benwerd That was an #IndieWeb fail Just how... - http://upon2020.com/banter/2014/01/31/benwerd-that-was-an-indieweb-fail-just-how/ (twitter.com/_/status/429399084693471232)
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tantek is now reading https://jeena.net/indieweb :)
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Jeena (y)
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tantek !tell j12t aaronpk and barnabywalters have some solutions to that
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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j12t tantek: pointers?
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Loqi j12t: tantek left you a message 2 minutes ago: aaronpk and barnabywalters have some solutions to that
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tantek j12t - they just do it on their sites - they mention domains in the posts on their site, and then their POSSE code automatically maps those personal domains to @-references etc. on Twitter etc.
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tantek I think barnaby wrote about his approach but I don't remember where
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aaronpk i use the rel-syndication target of the original post to find the person's twitter name
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tantek j12t - there are existing libraries/services for going from a personal domain to various silo profiles
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j12t That's cool. Would be nice if everybody could use the same code there.
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aaronpk i want to do home page -> twitter name, but haven't implemented that yet. I think barnaby may have
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tantek j12t - glennjones (sometimes in the channel) wrote a bunch of awesome XFN based silo profile discovery code
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tantek open source too
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tantek can't remember the name of the glennjones's site / service for this
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j12t So then the "ideal" behavior is that on my own site, I use domain names as identifiers, and when things get syndicated out and back in, it automatically translates back and forth into the appropriate silo names.
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tantek tries googling
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tantek identengine!
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tantek http://www.identengine.com/demos/profiles
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j12t actually I think I remember this ...
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tantek e.g. try putting *any* of our personal domains into that form
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tantek the result is quite amazing
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tantek Jeena, that is a GREAT post. well done.
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aaronpk indeed! and once my server can understand your ssl cert, i'll send a webmention of my reply!
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Jeena thanks
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tantek Jeena, and a beautiful display of webmention / Bridgy notifications all integrated together!
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j12t I guess I hung it after deselecting "cached".
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tantek The post itself is a wonderful demonstration of what it is talking about!
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tantek so good!
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tantek definitely belongs on the "Posts about the indie web" page!
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/Posts_about_the_IndieWeb
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tantek we need a 2014 section!
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Jeena it is february already (at least here in Sweden)
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tantek Jeena - go ahead and add it :)