#indiewebcamp 2014-02-20

2014-02-20 UTC
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tantek catches up on today's acquisitions.
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tantek wonders who will build a WhatsApp alternative based on WebRTC.
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tantek aaronpk, I agree, this is fascinating, from a data ownership perspective: " the client is the canonical message store, and the server is a router with temporary storage."
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aaronpk also particularly nice to see a company that does that validated to the tune of $16 billion
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tantek I'm not sure that's what was validated.
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aaronpk well heh
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aaronpk they don't store all messages, and they were bought for $16 billion, so...
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tantek I'm looking at two data points: $3B offer for Snapchat (refused). and $16B offer for WhatsApp. I bet if you did $/phone# math you might find the same ratio.
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tantek (haven't actually done the math - hence a hypothesis)
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tantek (per KartikPrabhu's implication above)
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tantek which therefore also implies that FB *will* make an offer on Secret for the same thing. userid/phone# association, along with implied network of which phone#s communicate with which other phone#s.
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tantek in fact, it wouldn't be surprising if Secret is *planning* for such an acquisition offer
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KartikPrabhu looks up Secret
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tantek unfortunately that's hard to do. so here: https://www.secret.ly/
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KartikPrabhu aah yes! Google told me all sorts of secrets except that one
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KartikPrabhu miffed that their "why build this?" leads to a post on medium
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tantek Snapchat, 16.5M daily users per http://www.quora.com/Snapchat/Snapchat-How-many-daily-active-users-DAU-or-monthly-active-users-MAU-is-Snapchat-estimated-to-have in 2013-12 (FB offer $3B in 2013-11).
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tantek Whatsapp, 324M daily users per 72% of 450 per http://sequoiacapital.tumblr.com/post/77211282835/four-numbers-that-explain-why-facebook-acquired
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aaronpk so they overbid for snapchat, or got a great deal on whatsapp?
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KartikPrabhu using $/daily users it seems that way
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snarfed fwiw, 72% daily active / monthly active is *crazy* high
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tantek aaronpk - great deal on whatsapp
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tantek compared to snapchat
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bret Why do my family/friends choose something like whatsapp over https://threema.ch
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tantek there's also a psychological aspect.
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tantek two founders, $16B
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tantek who knows what % of the company they have, but that's an awfully high number to say no to
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aaronpk 4-year vesting on an additional $3b of FB stock
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aaronpk so that's a commitment for sure, but very hard to say no to.
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snarfed yeah, most reports are missing the 3B in employee retention
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snarfed 19B is really the right top line number
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tantek bret. easy, compare that home page to: http://www.whatsapp.com/
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tantek note that whatsapp does not mention big scary words like "Encryption"
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tantek nor does it have a dork QR code graphic on the home page
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tantek that black & white clean design look of threema's home page appeals to geeks and design nerds but bores pretty much everyone else. also, looks unprofessional to the average person.
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bret I guess all the massive security flaws found in whatsapp over the months has me jaded
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tantek whereas the slick graphics and textures (and hey, screenshot right there!) of whatsapp is MUCH more professional looking (= trustworthy) and appealing
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bret what does the whatsapp page remind me of... can't put my finger on it
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tantek bret - people don't read the news about that stuff. they look at the design/branding and trust their gut
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tantek bret - Twitter?
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bret it looks like a crappy replica of the old iOS sms icon, whatsapp branding has always rubbed me the wrong way
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bret it looks cheap
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bret opportunistic
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tantek unlike that threema home page which looks like it was designed in a day by a coder?
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tantek talk about cheap looking
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tantek bret, what you call "crappy replica" could be instead thought of as clever re-use of familiar symbols and iconography
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bret It looks like an ameican apparel ad
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tantek without the models
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bret tantek: to me when I see that, It looks like spam apps trying to trick users into clicking on the wrong thing
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bret family friends fall into that trap all the time
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Jeena that is why spam works
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tantek therefore it makes sense to design that way
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Jeena and whats app got sold to facebook
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Jeena it is devistating to us but we are not the target group
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tantek why is it devastating?
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tantek (to us)
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Jeena that our friends and family fall into that trap
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bret its wrong to trick people imo
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Jeena + the spam trap
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Jeena while we "see through" it and can't do anything about it
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Jeena ok devastating is quite a strong word for that
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tantek Jeena, so far my family and friends do not use Whatsapp. I have gotten ZERO requests from friends for me to install it so they can use it to communicate with me.
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Jeena mine too but that is mostly because only my sister has a smartphone
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bret My cousin uses it. I asked her 'whats up with whatsapp?' says she uses it to sms friends in other countries, which I guess she has a few freinds abroad
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Jeena and what is odd, I kind of have many friends without a smartphone
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Jeena hm but now when I think about it, why don't my friends with smartphones want to talk to me via whats app?
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tantek right, I use a combination of iOS Messages, FB Messenger, Gtalk/Hangouts, and AIM for that reason (instead of SMS)
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tantek Jeena - yes, that's the right question to ask.
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tantek just now realizing that GlennJones not only implemented sending/receiving webmentions, but also shipped a new Node.js library to do so!
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tantek so cool!
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Jeena very cool
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tantek uh, aaronpk, something very odd appears to have happened with nitot's indieauth sign-in on the wiki
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aaronpk uhoh?
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tantek he apparently was given User:Standblog.org_blog
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tantek see: http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=IRC_People&curid=111&diff=6994&oldid=6903&rcid=7051
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tantek rather than User:Standblog.org
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bret tantek: cleverly designed? or a slightly less evil version of fake download button ads? http://www.flickr.com/photos/bretc/12645142465/
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aaronpk I see a login from standblog.org/blog
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tantek is there a way to configure IndieWebCamp.com's use of IndieAuth so that it ONLY accepts top level domains (no path) ?
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tantek because I think that's part of the point of owning your own *domain*
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tantek bret, definitely clever re-use of Apple's graphic elements
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tantek hey if Apple let it into the store, then they got away with it
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aaronpk yeah, I should change that in the wiki
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bret Its something that my dad opens to try and text me with, but then cant find me
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tantek !tell nitot, how about setting up standblog.org as your identity instead of standblog.org/blog - I mean, do you really need to say "blog" twice? ;)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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bret anyway thats my rant on whatsapp
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bret can you send push notifications websites saved to an android home page?
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aaronpk I don't think so
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bret s/ websites/ to websites
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Loqi bret meant to say: can you send push notifications to websites saved to an android home page?
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aaronpk you need all sorts of google account things for push notificaitons
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bret :/
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bret apps apps apps
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tantek bret - theoretically: http://www.w3.org/TR/notifications/
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tantek and for real today, in shipping FirefoxOS phones: https://wiki.mozilla.org/WebAPI/SimplePush
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aaronpk oh great!
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tantek well, I'd say "fair". At least there's something you can prototype with.
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tantek We need to get it into FF/Android
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tantek and then hopefully other browsers / platforms
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bret whats the plan on FirefoxOS in the US?
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bret for*
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tantek bret - you can buy devices on eBay and pop any GSM SIM into them.
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tantek e.g. tmobile or att
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tantek plus they work over wifi
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tantek without any sim
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bret I would probrably try to run it on better hardware, i hear the official hardware is not much fun
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tantek bret, well then here you go: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/Firefox_OS/Installing_on_a_mobile_device
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Jeena Sadly the devices are kind of crapy and the os still is very buggy and lacks important applications like WhatsApp, a Podcast app or simple things like address book sync (at least via CardDav or what was it called)
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tantek or play with this: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/Firefox_OS/Using_the_B2G_desktop_client
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bret i wonder if detrich would be interested in doing a firefoxOS hack session in portland, where people could install FFOS on random android hardware together
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Jeena the by far most annoying bug is that if someone calls you and you exidentally press the home button the "unlock phone" UI pops up and you can't take the call anymore because it is in front of this UI
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bret might be too much like real work
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bret XD
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Jeena you then have to wait until the person gives up and hope they didn't block the number so you can call back
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tantek bret - I bet he would
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tantek Jeena - presumably you've filed a bug on this in bugzilla? ;)
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bret ok I gotta run
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tantek Jeena: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/describecomponents.cgi?product=Firefox%20OS
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Jeena yes https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=924854 even with a video showing it
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tantek.com created /notifications (+889) "stubbed with dfn, server, client" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk, bret, for your review: http://indiewebcamp.com/notifications
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tantek Jeena, do you have any documentation of how you're doing POSSE to Tumblr including native retumbls on Tumblr?
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Jeena I'm not on tumblr, I'm only doing POSSE to twitter yet
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aaronpk that was acegiak I think
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tantek fail
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tantek !tell acegiak do you have any documentation of how you're doing POSSE to Tumblr including native retumbls on Tumblr?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek checks the logs for evidence to cite
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Jeena I use Firefox OS 1.1, which introduced Push Notifications, since september last year, but I haven't used any application which would use them yet.
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acegiak I'm awake
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Loqi acegiak: tantek left you a message 8 minutes ago: do you have any documentation of how you're doing POSSE to Tumblr including native retumbls on Tumblr?
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acegiak tantek: I can write up how I'm doing it
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tantek good. I'm almost done writing up how to theoretically do it ;)
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acegiak kk
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acegiak mine's a hack on someone else's posse plugin because I haven't been able to handle oauth myself
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tantek.com edited /Tumblr (+1402) "/* How to */ POSSE details for higher fidelity on Tumblr (for a better UX for your Tumblr friends that read/see your posts/activity there)" (view diff)
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tantek acegiak - for your review: http://indiewebcamp.com/Tumblr#POSSE_to_Tumblr
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tantek.com edited /Twitter (-4) "/* POSSE to Twitter */ tweak" (view diff)
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acegiak tantek: I'm assuming those notes mean examples needed?
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tantek URLs please :)
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acegiak aight, grabbing
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acegiak.machinespirit.net edited /Tumblr (+160) "/* POSSE Reposts of Tumblr posts */" (view diff)
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tantek acegiak - you twice posted the Tumblr URL
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tantek what's the original repost on your site?
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snarfed bridgy PSA: i've bumped the twitter poll frequency up to 5m, thanks to more aggressive API call caching. enjoy!
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snarfed (i give it 50/50 that the 5m frequency sticks. :P fingers crossed.)
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tantek snarfed - nicely done!
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tantek awe
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tantek !tell snarfed nicely done with the increased bridgy Twitter polling frequency!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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acegiak tantek: did I? goddamnit, I'm not doing well tdoay
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acegiak.machinespirit.net edited /Tumblr (+1) "/* POSSE Reposts of Tumblr posts */" (view diff)
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tantek interesting. The Tumblr presentation looks a bit nicer I must say. Are you iterating on your repost styling acegiak?
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tantek (also probably don't need such a thorough h-card on every post permalink!)
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tantek acegiak I also suggest a rel=syndication link from your original repost to the tumblr repost
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tantek acegiak - is it automatic POSSE with native Tumblr retumbling or was that done manually?
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Loqi snarfed: tantek left you a message 30 minutes ago: nicely done with the increased bridgy Twitter polling frequency!
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acegiak tantek: the POSSE tumblr retumbling is automatic
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acegiak and yeah I'm working on my presentation of reposts
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tantek acegiak - VERY cool
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tantek are you using their API? email to tumblr?
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acegiak I'm using their api because you can't reblog withthe email functionality
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acegiak cause you need to do an api request on the post you're rebloggin to get it's reblog key
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tantek makes sense
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tantek maybe add those details to that section on the wiki?
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acegiak I'm trying to work out if there's an easy way to add a rel="syndication" link because there's no information returned by the call to post the reblog just 201 success
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acegiak I'll add them now
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tantek thank you!
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tantek perhaps you can make another API call to get your most recent post from your Tumblr?
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tantek barring any race conditions, it should be your POSSEd post
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acegiak tantek: yeha the race conditions are what I'm worried about
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acegiak.machinespirit.net edited /Tumblr (+404) "tumblr reblog must be done in api not email posting" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu !tell tommorris working mf2py using BeautifulSoup. https://github.com/kartikprabhu/mf2py testing/comments appreciated. I am working on testing it on the test examples
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KartikPrabhu bear ^
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KartikPrabhu also, snarfed ^^ :P
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snarfed oh man. can't wait!
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KartikPrabhu thinks unicoding in python is such a pain
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snarfed really? hrm. maybe i've been lucky, but i've always found it pretty simple
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snarfed different use cases maybe
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KartikPrabhu in 2.7 it is sort of a pain to encode/decode strings correctly
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KartikPrabhu i have heard python 3 is great with unicode support
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snarfed it's definitely much better built in
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KartikPrabhu tantek's website should be a good test case with the accent on his name
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snarfed out of curiosity though, what's so hard about .decode('utf-8') and .encode('utf-8') ?
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snarfed or are specific frameworks or libs making it hard?
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KartikPrabhu i guess I just don't know how to use it right, having only known python for 1 year :)
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snarfed ah. yeah, one of my favorite parts about python is, hard things can take a while to figure out, but once you do, they're usually very little code
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KartikPrabhu yeah. I will watch out for unicode issues in that mf2py thing
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KartikPrabhu might need to add decode/encode to places
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snarfed btw, it'll be at least a few days before i get back to it seriously, so if anyone's interested in exercising mf2py more deeply, feel free to dive into https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/10
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snarfed a good first step would be to hook up mf2py to json_to_object() and see how it behaves with different input html: https://github.com/snarfed/activitystreams-unofficial/blob/master/microformats2.py#L133
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KartikPrabhu interesting. might get to it once I test the code more thoroughly
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KartikPrabhu rewards himself with popcorn for successful debugging
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snarfed cool. nice work with the port!
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KartikPrabhu woah! there are 3 KevinMarks now!!
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aaronpk man if there were three of me I could get so much done
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: I know that feel bro!
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KartikPrabhu damn that sounded much more "teenager"y that I anticipated :|
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KevinMarks I have 2 chrome windows open and an Android client
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KevinMarks I have had to put two of me in a project plan before now to make the dependencies work
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KartikPrabhu hah
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KevinMarks Python unicode was an advantage ten years ago
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KevinMarks compared to other scripting languages
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KevinMarks 3 makes it better by having bytes instead of strings
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KartikPrabhu i still don't really know how to use encode/decode properly. Time to figure out. you know any good resources?
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KevinMarks In 2.7?
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KevinMarks http://www.diveintopython.net/xml_processing/unicode.html
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KartikPrabhu cool. thanks
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KevinMarks In 3 http://www.diveintopython3.net/strings.html
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KevinMarks Mark explains things well
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aaronparecki.com edited /principles-de (+31) "porting content from duolingo" (view diff)
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KevinMarks The really annoying bit is when one HTML doc has multiple encodings in
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KevinMarks Used to see that a lot in blogging, where people quoted each other and copy/pasted, causing encoding glitches
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KartikPrabhu seems as though UTF-8 is becoming widely used
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snarfed utf-8 is definitely the de facto standard
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snarfed support it well and ignore the rest for now
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snarfed if a project gets big enough that users demand other encodings, that's a wonderful problem to have :P
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KevinMarks Yes. But the utf8 parser can barf if given win1252
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KevinMarks See http://www.aaronsw.com/2002/sanitize/sanitize-0.32.py
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KevinMarks Utf8 is the right answer, but you need to be Postelian about it
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snarfed definitely, good point
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KartikPrabhu happy to report that mf2py ported to BeautifulSoup passes all the example tests except the unimplemented value-class-pattern
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KartikPrabhu works on both url and file inputs! next step getting backwards compatibility to work
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tommorris KartikPrabhu: awesome
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Loqi tommorris: KartikPrabhu left you a message 2 hours, 54 minutes ago: working mf2py using BeautifulSoup. https://github.com/kartikprabhu/mf2py testing/comments appreciated. I am working on testing it on the test examples
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KartikPrabhu well there is the message :P
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KartikPrabhu tommorris: is there a list of back_compat classes to support
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KartikPrabhu ?
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tommorris yeah, on the wiki.
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tommorris I haven’t gotten around to thinking about backcompat
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KartikPrabhu there is one hcard in mf2py I might ad more to the BS version
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@skoops wer nicht will, dass facebook, google, $dienst daten über ihn speichert, muss sich seine eigene infrastruktur bauen #ownyourdata (twitter.com/_/status/436389458372739072)
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@skoops kauft euch einen raspberry pi, mietet euch einen server, nehmt ein ausgemustertes notebook... installiert nen mailserver drauf. #ownyourdata (twitter.com/_/status/436389766083670016)
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@skoops installiert euch eine kleine owncloud, einen jabber server und schon habt ihr chat und dropbox und mails unter EURER kontrolle #ownyourdata (twitter.com/_/status/436390176575987712)
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@nhoizey RT @xtof_fr: @nitot merci pour ce 1er meetup #indieweb. Calons une date á ton retour pour une session #webmention + #rsvp http://t.co/LhYZ… (twitter.com/_/status/436390545687347200)
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@kevinmarks “@janl: The plot thickens. Decentralise everything. Now.” #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/436391716770172928)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/xtof_fr/436249324679610369/436390545687347200 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/rsvp (webmention)
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@dsample RT @kevinmarks: “@janl: The plot thickens. Decentralise everything. Now.” #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/436396948481122304)
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@_DerekSnyder RT @kevinmarks: “@janl: The plot thickens. Decentralise everything. Now.” #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/436398393460789248)
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@hirojin RT @kevinmarks: “@janl: The plot thickens. Decentralise everything. Now.” #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/436405254419402752)
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@hartgeldhure @skoops ist eig. die installation von owncloud auf einem mac mini ratsam bzw. kompliziert einzurichten? #owncloud #ownyourdata (twitter.com/_/status/436413382934429696)
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@djp1974 RT @kevinmarks: “@janl: The plot thickens. Decentralise everything. Now.” #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/436414629611175936)
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Loqi nitot: tantek left you a message 9 hours, 14 minutes ago: about setting up standblog.org as your identity instead of standblog.org/blog - I mean, do you really need to say "blog" twice? ;)
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jonnybarnes anyone there? barnabywalters? I can't get php-mf2 to work
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: oh dear, how so?
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jonnybarnes testing something in a test.php file and I get https://gist.github.com/jonnybarnes/9111718
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barnabywalters MF2\parse is a function
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barnabywalters remove the “new” constructor and it should work fine
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barnabywalters and you should always pass the URL as the second argument to Mf2\parse so that relative URLs can be resolved correctly
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barnabywalters see also https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2#parsing-a-document-with-relative-urls
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jonnybarnes thanks barnabywalters
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jonnybarnes also, its a small world. was reading http://waterpigs.co.uk/articles/reykjavk-cryptoparty-2014/
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jonnybarnes Ximin Luo is a good friend that I went to school with
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: oh really? nice!
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barnabywalters crazy coincidence
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jonnybarnes yeah, he worked at Google before joining the Tor project and hated it, I think he's much happier now he's doing something he actually cares about
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barnabywalters yeah he was really interesting to talk to, a good indicator that he cares about what he’s working on
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wuhkuhh !list
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bnvk barnabywalters: if you're able to sneak away today or tomorrow you should come to the Tor hackathon and see if you doing some IndieWeb stuffs with .onion addresses
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barnabywalters bnvk: sneak away? it’s during the daytime?
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barnabywalters I’m not that interested in .onion addresses, namecoin has the potential to be actually useful
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barnabywalters for it to be indieweb-relevant we have to be able to use it for selfdogfooding, i.e. our *primary* id on the web
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jonnybarnes barnabywalters just checking, but I think I know why php-mf2 isnt working, if the $html string passed to it also includes the HTTP headers before <!DOCTYPE html> then it wont work?
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barnabywalters I would use barnabywalters.bit if it had enough support, but no way I would use [BUNCHOFRANDOMHEXCHARS].onion
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jonnybarnes i.e. I need to get Guzzle to return just thh html and pass that to php-mf2
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: yep, that’s unlikely to work correctly — the first parameter should just be HTML
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jonnybarnes cool, time to read the Guzzle docs
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: if you’re using guzzle you can do $response->getBody(true)
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bnvk barnabywalters: in the right setup you wouldn't need to type that .onion address, you click on a persons name and links back to posts on their onion node
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barnabywalters bnvk: what are you talking about? click a persons name where?
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bnvk like on a post or a webmention
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: I have a little function which takes a guzzle response, figures out how best to parse it (i.e. using php-mf2 or mf2-shim) and returns the microformats, so I don’t have to get the body and URL out manually
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barnabywalters bnvk: and how would people log in using indieauth with .onion addresses?
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bnvk if I replied to something you posted at waterpigs.co.uk, but I replied from my indieweb node that happened to exist at an .onion route, you'd be able to navigate to my node by clicking on my name, avatar, reply link
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Jeena hm so why I don't see my friends trying to convince me to use whatsapp is because perhaps they don't even use it and all those numbers of users are from the not so developed countries like Rwanda, etc? http://blog.textit.in/your-path-to-a-$16b-exit-build-a-j2me-app
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barnabywalters bnvk: that’s not the point — are you prepared to give up brennannovak.com and use a .onion address as your primary ID on the web?
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barnabywalters if not, then it’s not relevant to the indieweb
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barnabywalters Jeena: I hadn’t heard of WhatsApp until it got bought!
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barnabywalters bnvk: don’t get me wrong, I totally want to experiment with hidden services
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barnabywalters I’m just skeptical that they’ll ever be useful for everyday use as primary identities
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barnabywalters as far as I’m concerned they’re purely a temporary anti-censorship measure until namecoin or something like it is widely supported
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bnvk I don't know if i'd ever make a .onion addresses be my PRIMARY address, but I can definitely see a world where people post and interact from multiple different addresses
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barnabywalters bnvk: why do you personally want to use multiple addresses?
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bnvk I like the idea of a having a node that i can interact with over that net that doesn't require me to pay hosting + domain fees
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bnvk it allows for a more truly decentralized publishing / interaction across the web
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bnvk in theory, one could bundle an IW publishing app with Tor, and be able to participate
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bnvk instead of all the barriers to entry of domains + hosting + technical know how
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barnabywalters in practise I think the barrier of using and understanding Tor, how to set up a hidden service, what .onion addresses are, then actually remembering one for yourself, then persuading anyone who wants to interact with you to install Tor is greater than the current barrier to hosting a website
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bnvk Nah man, if it's packaged correctly, there is no barrier to understanding & using Tor
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barnabywalters bnvk: we could solve 50% of the barriers to everything free and open source with “if it’s packaged correctly”
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bnvk not with putting things on the web
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bnvk not until IP6 is widely supported
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barnabywalters and whilst there isn’t much of a barrier to *using* Tor, there are larger barriers to setting up a hidden service, then the *huge* barriers of remembering and using ugly .onion addresses and persuading everyone else to use Tor so the .onion addresses actually work
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bnvk setting up the hidden service would be handled in the installer part
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bnvk meh, whatevers
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barnabywalters bnvk: have you set up a hidden service?
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bnvk I plan to today or tomorrow
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bnvk we're going to be bundling that inside of Mailpile
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barnabywalters oh wow, nice!
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barnabywalters so what time(s) are the Tor hackathons?
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bnvk mmm, i'll ping you if you're interested
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bnvk not sure yet
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jonnybarnes *sobs*
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jonnybarnes why isnt this working
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bnvk aww
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barnabywalters bnvk: so one thing which might allow this to work and be a seamless transition from conventional domain names, whether it’s ugly .onion or nice namecoins…
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bnvk yah, definitely
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barnabywalters … I didn’t say anything yet ;)
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barnabywalters …would be to simply to duplicate links to things, one using conventional DNS and one using the alternative address
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bnvk I meant re: "seamless transition"
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barnabywalters then UAs (browsers, indieweb nodes, etc) which supported alternate DNS systems would detect and use them, and everyone else would fall back to using the original
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barnabywalters oh okay
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bnvk yah, making the UA able to fallback like that would be a beautifully elegant experience
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barnabywalters e.g. <a rel="in-reply-to" href="http://brennannovak.com/notes/100">in reply to a post on brennannovak.com</a> <link rel="in-reply-to" href="https://skbgdsrgbekjshrgbks.onion/notes/100" />
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bnvk right
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barnabywalters would produce "in-reply-to": ['normal address', 'onion address']
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bnvk that's nice!
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: what are the symptoms?
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jonnybarnes that the \Mf2\parse() function is just returning an empty array
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: can you paste the data you’re giving it into a gist?
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jonnybarnes its definitely being given just HTML
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barnabywalters are you by any chance doing Mf2\parse($guzzleResponse->getBody()) ?
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barnabywalters that would return a resource which *should* work fine but might not
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barnabywalters but without seeing code + data it’s difficult to diagnose
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jonnybarnes https://gist.github.com/jonnybarnes/9112466
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jonnybarnes the getContent function is working as expected, echo $content
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jonnybarnes would procide the HTML only as its output (I've checked)
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jonnybarnes procide=produce
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barnabywalters try changing $response->getBody() to $response->getBody(true)
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barnabywalters it shouldn’t be necessary but it’s the only thing I can think of which might be effecting it
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barnabywalters out of interest what actually is the HTML content you’re trying to parse? have you passed it through waterpigs.co.uk/php-mf2 to make sure it parses correctly?
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pfefferle is $content set?
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jonnybarnes a more explicit output: https://gist.github.com/jonnybarnes/9112515
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jonnybarnes yeah it goes through your online parser, it should do, its lifted straight from arronpk's website
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jonnybarnes aaronpk even
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jonnybarnes using getBody(true) works
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pfefferle have tried to enable all warnings etc.?
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barnabywalters hm that is very odd
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barnabywalters off to eat now, bbiab
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Jeena I assume some of you implemented POSSE with Facebook, how does it work? I created a facebook app and I got the app access token, but I can not find out how it relates to the user access token
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pfefferle Jeena https://developers.facebook.com/docs/graph-api/quickstart/
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pfefferle https://developers.facebook.com/docs/graph-api/quickstart/#step5
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Jeena ah that looks nice, will try that, oh publish_actions, perfect thanks!
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Jeena or is it publish_stream?
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Jeena or status_update?
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Jeena or share_item?
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Jeena hmmmm
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pfefferle i used publish_stream
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pfefferle no idea what publish_action is
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Jeena and it shows up like if you would post it normally to facebook?
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Jeena I will try that
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pfefferle https://developers.facebook.com/docs/facebook-login/permissions/
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Jeena man it is so much text to read http://mle.mymiddleearth.com/files/2013/07/aint-nobody-got-time-for-that.png
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Jeena Twitter made it kind of much easier
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Jeena or it is perhaps because I know Twitters API because back then I wrote a Twitter client
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Jeena can I use the access token from the explorer in my app or do I need to get myself programatically?
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pfefferle It works with publish_stream
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Jeena ok
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pfefferle :)
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Jeena holy shit it worked!!1
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pfefferle nice!
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Jeena thanks so much pfefferle I would have spend days trying to find that
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pfefferle gern geschehen :)
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Jeena :D
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Jeena where do you put the backlink, into the link or into the text of the message?
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pfefferle &link=
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pfefferle as "link"
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Jeena ok cool, the only thing is that facebook shows my avatar as the image because it is the only image it can find on a note
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Jeena that king of looks odd.
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barnabywalters Jeena: pretty sure you can override that
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pfefferle yes thats a problem
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pfefferle perhaps you can push a default blank image if there is none
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Jeena I can send a url to another picture
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pfefferle or kind of a logo
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Jeena hm logo could be an idea
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jonnybarnes barnabywalters: is there a reason Taproot only exposes its webmention endpoint via a HTTP Link header, and not also with a <link> element?
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: mainly because headers can be added easily in code by middlewares without having to change templates or manually mess with response bodies
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barnabywalters but really that’s not a huge concern
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Jeena my website does that too, in my opinion it is just unnecessary bloat to do both
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barnabywalters it also means that clients which do HEAD requests first instead of jumping straight to GET requests get the link the first time round
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jonnybarnes also, if I accept a webmention I send a 202 Accepted response, is it the same response for updating and deleting webmentions?
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@MogulAzam RT @kevinmarks: “@janl: The plot thickens. Decentralise everything. Now.” #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/436515757610893312)
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Jeena hm damn, now when pfefferle is gone I got a problem: "OAuthException :: Error validating access token: Session has expired on den 20 februari 2014 07:00. The current time is den 20 februari 2014 07:08."
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jonnybarnes you need to request a new token from facebook
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jonnybarnes every time you make a query you should fist be checking wether the token you have is still valid
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jonnybarnes I'm sure theres a way of requesting a more permanent token though
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Jeena I don't want to need to log in into facebook in a popup every time I want to post something
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barnabywalters Jeena: you can exchange the token for a 60 day token IIRC
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Jeena 60 days hm
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Jeena so basically I need to implement the whole login dance with facebook and can't get anything easy from them to post?
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barnabywalters sadly yes
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Jeena damn
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Loqi hehe
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barnabywalters the PHP client makes it fairly easy, perhaps there is a ruby one too?
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Jeena yeah there is one https://github.com/nov/fb_graph but I can't figure out how to get the user access token
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Jeena oddly the documentation just shows how to do things if you already have one
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Jeena or I just didn't quite read everything in the documentation yet
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Jeena endlich ein wenig spannung!
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Jeena oh wrong chanel ^^
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matthias_pfeffer Jeena you can refresh tokens without the popup stuff https://developers.facebook.com/docs/facebook-login/access-tokens/#extending
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Jeena but I will still need to save my note in the database, do the dance and then get the note back from the database and then be able to send it?
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pfefferle no, it seems that you can request a long lived token https://developers.facebook.com/docs/facebook-login/access-tokens/#refreshtokens
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pfefferle they live for 60 days
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pfefferle but yes, after that it seems that you have to reauthorize
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pfefferle Jeena they removed the offline access in 2012...
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pfefferle i am not sure if there is an alternative
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pfefferle https://developers.facebook.com/docs/roadmap/completed-changes/offline-access-removal/
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Jeena I assume I could do the dance when the user requests the /notes/new page
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Jeena that way I will have a token when creating the note
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Jeena hehe die kanadierinen lachen jetzt schon
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Jeena damn it gold für Kanada
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bnvk barnabywalters: https://g5ngzr6blac6vd2r.onion
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barnabywalters bnvk: http://bslbl4vgpkswk2v3.onion/
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aaronpk lol you guys
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snarfed Jeena: re long-lived FB oauth tokens, if you use the offline_access oauth scope, you'll be able to get a 2-month token
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snarfed used to
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snarfed ..er, used to be infinite length, like the other silos, but they stopped that a year or two ago :/
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Jeena yeah I hoped I could get something like twitter gives you, which you could use until the user removes your app
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snarfed right! and g+, instagram, etc
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snarfed used to work, but no longer. ah well.
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Jeena now I am trying to implement the login dance
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Jeena I think it will be ok when I log in before the creation of a note so I would not need to save the note in between
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Jeena well well we'll see
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snarfed good luck!
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snarfed btw, i'm guessing you're already far enough in, but let me know if you want to work together on posse as a service instead of built into your site. i'm starting on that right now, and i have many of the hard parts done (and tested) from bridgy. https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/10
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jonnybarnes how consistent are microformats? i.e. when trying to grab the content of a reply from the output of php-mf2, this is currently the location: `$content['items'][0]['properties']['content'][0]['value']`.
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jonnybarnes is it likely to always be there if the other person has used the correct microformats on their site?
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jonnybarnes if that question makes sense
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aaronpk jonnybarnes: assuming the person has included e-content, that is where it will be
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aaronpk jonnybarnes: have you read http://indiewebcamp.com/comments-presentation#How_to_display for whether to display e-content, p-summary or p-name?
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jonnybarnes not fully, im still working out how to store webmentions, currently i'm serialising the array produced by php-mf2 and saving that in the database, but I dont think thats a good way of doing it
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jonnybarnes i think i should have a type column, reply, like, repost etc, and then a content column for if its a reply
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aaronpk my recommendation is to split up as much of the logic as possible. so for example when you receive a webmention, just store the raw HTML somewhere, and parse it later
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jonnybarnes i have saving/updating/deleteing working now though
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aaronpk ah very cool
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jonnybarnes i assume when you save the html youre not saving any of the js/css etc
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aaronpk jonnybarnes: correct, just the HTML from the GET request I use to verify the linkback
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aaronpk the idea being if I update my microformats parser, I can delete the parsed representation of the pages and everything gets re-parsed automatically
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aaronpk on disk I have a file with the HTML of each URL that mentions me, and a corresponding file that ends in ".json" with the parsed version. so I can always rm -rf *.json and everything gets re-parsed
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KevinMarks_ definitely the smart approach - this was the mapreduce mindset we talked about at Homebrew Website Club last week
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KevinMarks_ not stashing those crawl results was our biggest mistake at Technorati
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KevinMarks_ (we got away with it by recrawling the blogs a lot)
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jonnybarnes part of me thinks, trust the other person, if you want to re-parse, why not re-GET the html as oppose to storing it yourself
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jonnybarnes the source is meant to be a permalink after all
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aaronpk depends on how much you trust the content to be there in 10 years
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aaronpk since bridgy is sending such awesome feedback for my facebook posts, I am now compelled to add a "syndicate to facebook" checkbox in my UI
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snarfed in your posting UI for yourself?
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aaronpk my plan is when I check the box, my server will check if the current access token is valid and if not, prompt me with the facebook oauth dialog
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aaronpk yes
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aaronpk in my posting UI that is going away soon in favor of a small micropub app, heh
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snarfed sure!
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aaronpk but I want to use it nowooowwww
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snarfed :P
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KartikPrabhu makes mental note to look into micropub
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snarfed btw aaronpk, i did a bit of research on how to tell users when their tokens expire, and ended up using the (beta) notif api. feel free to borrow for p3k if you're thinking about other users. https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/59#issuecomment-34551936
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aaronpk whoa
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aaronpk man where did all the facebook oauth docs go
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snarfed yeah they changed urls pretty aggressively recently
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aaronpk it seems like they don't want people to use their OAuth api anymore and just use their javascript SDK instead
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snarfed i think they're mostly still there, just moved around
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KevinMarks_ interesting. They talk about access tokens without mentioning OAuth except in URLS https://developers.facebook.com/docs/facebook-login/access-tokens
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aaronpk it's like they want to pretend oauth doesn't exist
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KevinMarks_ It's probably more like they got fed up with OAuth 2.0 process and are going to keep using it de facto
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aaronpk yeah
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tantek tries to catchup from this morning
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caseorganic Tim Bray just left Google: https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2014/02/19/Leaving-Google (co-editor of xml spec, etc)
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KevinMarks_ yep. Definitely should get him into indieweb hacking. He'd love it
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tantek KevinMarks you think so?
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KevinMarks_ he's just spent 2 years on OpenID Connect. It'll be a breath of fresh air for him
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KevinMarks_ :D
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caseorganic KevinMarks_: great
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tantek KevinMarks, anyone who's spent 2 years on OpenID Connect needs to take some time off.
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caseorganic tantek: lol
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tantek no seriously, it means you're not impatient enough with bullshit/vapor/enterprise
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tantek he's experienced enough to know better
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KevinMarks_ but it means he's also primed to really appreciate IndieAuth
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caseorganic KevinMarks_: precisely
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caseorganic tantek: :)
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tantek KevinMarks - no it doesn't. hence the time off.
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tantek for reflection. before appreciation of alternatives is possible. emotionally that is.
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caseorganic yeah
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tantek like any break-up, there must be some recovery time to emotionally let go of the past.
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KevinMarks_ Tim has a lot of patience, but he does learn from experience. Remember http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2006/01/08/No-New-XML-Languages
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caseorganic when my dad left telecom, he needed an entire year of nothing.
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tantek yes. that.
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tantek KevinMarks - and how many years did that take to write?
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caseorganic snarfed: tantek: remember when i mentioned visiting silicon valley next weekend? i had to move the trip by two weeks. we'll have an indiewebcamp dinner then! new dates 2014-03-15 to 2014-03-17
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caseorganic snarfed: tantek: also aaron and i are trying to get to sf for indiewebcamp week after next.
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snarfed sounds great!
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tantek that would be great
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snarfed hell yeah
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tantek and benwerd and I have work to do on making that indiewebcamp happen :/
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KevinMarks_ oh yes
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KevinMarks_ can I help too?
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caseorganic tantek: do you have a venue?
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tantek yes help needed! http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/SF
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KevinMarks_ hm, bad link there
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caseorganic what are ideas for a venue so far. can mozilla support it, snarfed what about your office?
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Jeena freakin facebook, none of you have implemented posting from a ruby app have you? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/21916639/how-to-get-user-auth-token-via-fb-graph
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kevinmarks.com edited /Main_Page (+0) "/* IndieWebCamp */ fix sign up link" (view diff)
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caseorganic the portland indiewebcamp will be able to happen at esri r&d center's new office, which will be exciting
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aaronpk Jeena: I haven't from Ruby, but I'm about to do this exact thing in PHP right now
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caseorganic if it's fri 3/7 and sat 3/8 will be easy for aaron and i to make the whole thing before the esri conf
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tantek caseorganic yeah those are the dates
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caseorganic tantek: great
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tantek unless something comes up with venue that forces a change
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kevinmarks.com edited /2014/SF (+292) "/* Guest List */" (view diff)
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caseorganic hmm, what if code for america could host indiewebcamp?
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caseorganic if we need venue help i could send out a tweet
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KevinMarks_ SF should be quiet as it's during SXSW
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caseorganic KevinMarks_: great
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snarfed it's fri and sat, right? wish i could volunteer my office, but it'll be full of us doing normal work on fri, and weekends are tough for our bldg in general
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caseorganic snarfed: got it
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snarfed i'll think about other candidates thouguh
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caseorganic i love the idea of doing it at long now foundation. i have a friend who works there. it's very small though. likely not a lot of break out space.
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caseorganic and institute for the future might be a little tough as you have to pay for the space
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caseorganic code for america seems like and interesting idea
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KevinMarks_ CfA have a lot of space.
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KevinMarks_ others with good space: neo, archive.org
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snarfed oh man, long now would be awesome! agreed though, they're short on space
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snarfed the salon will be great once it's built, but that's a ways off
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tantek caseorganic, kevinmarks, can you add to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/SF#To-do ? perhaps a new subsection on venue?
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tantek problem isn't throwing out ideas. problem is investigating each one
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tantek to the point of getting space commitments etc.
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caseorganic tantek: yeah i can do that -
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@kevinmarks @timbray if you're coming back from ETF London through SFO, consider stopping off for #indiewebcamp SF http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/SF (twitter.com/_/status/436586129630842880)
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caseorganic.com edited /2014/SF (+121) "/* To-do */ Added venue ideas" (view diff)
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caseorganic.com edited /2014/SF (+48) "/* Venue Ideas */ Embassy network basement" (view diff)
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tantek part of the problem is capacity
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KevinMarks_ oh fuck you twitter. stop censoring my attempts to dm URLs
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tantek e.g. I tried to get github too
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tantek no response
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tantek will keep trying
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tantek because obviously there's a lot of overlap
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tantek and trying larger / better venues before reserving smaller ones
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caseorganic tantek: how many people are we looking at accepting? 30?
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tantek caseorganic - as many as we can
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tantek as usual
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caseorganic tantek: got it
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tantek as many as we can get a good venue for
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tantek that's the challenge
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tantek that's why we try for a bigger/better venue first
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tantek with perhaps an expected cap of 50/100
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tantek remember how overcrowded 2013/UK was
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tantek and this is in SF
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tantek with lots more indiewebcamp interest since last fall
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caseorganic yikes
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KevinMarks_ Heroku also has good empty space, though all the events people I know there keep leaving
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caseorganic.com edited /2014/SF (+59) "/* Venue Ideas */ Added more idea" (view diff)
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tantek KevinMarks - note the emphasis on OpenID Connect at the end of Tim Bray's post: https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2014/02/19/Leaving-Google
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tantek so he's so not ready to / primed for IndieAuth yet
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tantek I think your appraisal was/is way off there
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KevinMarks_ "I’m interested in the power relationships around identity and privacy, and how to use market forces and regulations in the interest of the people who use the Internet."
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tantek that's a generic statement. the specifics are all around openid connect
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KevinMarks_ true
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KevinMarks_ once he is actually free, he'll start overhauling his website. That's when we nab him ;)
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tantek KevinMarks, if you have his ear, then start suggesting small immediate practical changes to his website along the lines of IndieMark and IndieWebify.me
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tantek no big vision stuff
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tantek just small things
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tantek e.g. adding h-entry etc. microformats
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tantek eventually webmention (since he does have comments)
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tantek by getting to engage in our easy/simple building blocks one at a time, I think that will "sell" him on it more than any grand vision attempt could
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Jeena hehe "Plus I find the Bay Area congested, racist, incestuous, and overpriced."
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tantek congested = don't drive
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sparverius has he never been to any where else in his life
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tantek I wonder how much of that is Google-specific bay area experience
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tantek and all the time at Sun as well on the peninsula
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sparverius im pretty sure vancouver is whiter than sour cream
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tantek lol!
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tantek how does it compare to Portland?
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sparverius Bray was also one of the main authors of the original XML specification.
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sparverius I'll grab the pitchforks. We can't let him run to canada without punishment!
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gRegor` XML? Burn him! ;)
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Jeena hehe
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tantek rather than burn (XML), let's how him how to have fun with simple HTML (microformats) + HTTP (webmentions)
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tantek s/how him/show him/
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Loqi tantek meant to say: rather than burn (XML), let's show him how to have fun with simple HTML (microformats) + HTTP (webmentions)
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gRegor` Hah. Clever Loqi
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Loqi woot!
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gRegor` yay!
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Loqi giggles
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gRegor` Or we could build a bridge out of him. (Monty Python and the Holy Grail)
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gRegor` But yes, microformats is the way to go :)
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KevinMarks_ Vancouver is very chinese
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KevinMarks_ anyone fancy a hackathon tomorrow? http://hackathon.launch.co/
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KevinMarks_ the prize arms race is going well.
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caseorganic KevinMarks_: that's not a grand prize, that's an investment! :)
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caseorganic wow, interesting hackathon
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KevinMarks_ "all code, design, art, music, SFX, and assets must be created during the duration of the Hackathon"
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caseorganic KevinMarks_: oh yeah, esri's going to be there
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KevinMarks_ The exception to the above rule is that you are encouraged to use 3rd party services, APIs, open source projects, libraries, and frameworks.
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KevinMarks_ sounds very indieweb friendly then
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caseorganic KevinMarks_: interesting
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caseorganic KevinMarks_: i was told i should head out there to support it, but i'm going to be in denver. sometimes i get really short notice on what esri's involved in.
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caseorganic KevinMarks_: if you go there you should meet myles sutherland
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tantek so you can include any prior work you've done, as long as you put it on github for the public first ;)
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tantek ok this is impressive: "All teams retain full ownership of what they have created during the Hackathon"
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KevinMarks_ yes, terms look pretty good.
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KevinMarks_ and a CoC
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tantek crazy prizes though for sure.
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tantek will be interesting if anything gets launched out of it.
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aaronpk hackathons that try to claim ownership are ridiculous
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KevinMarks_ prizes are a bit random
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aaronpk holy crap why is FB auth so damn complicated now
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aaronpk "Given URL is not allowed by the Application configuration.: One or more of the given URLs is not allowed by the App's settings. It must match the Website URL or Canvas URL, or the domain must be a subdomain of one of the App's domains."
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aaronpk I don't know what any of those things are or where I would set them
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aaronpk this used to be so straightforward
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KevinMarks_ there used to be a 'create a new facebook app on heroku by default" button
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jonnybarnes Loqi is back
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aaronpk giant netsplit i think
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aaronpk !tell benwerd do you not include a link back to your werd.io post on your Facebook POSSE copies?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Jeena ok it only took half a day but I think I am able to post to facebook now, even though it wants a image which it can show for the link and I don't want it to.
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aaronpk Jeena: nice, i've just about got mine working too
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Jeena what are you sending as a image?
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aaronpk i'm not sending anything right now, we'll see what happens
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aaronpk Yeah it looks ok just like this for basic text notes: http://aaron.pk/n4Ug1
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Jeena does it take your avatar as the link image? or do you add the url to the text instead?
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aaronpk i'm not doing it as sharing a link
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aaronpk just a normal text post
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Jeena so how do you do the link back?
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aaronpk it's added at the bottom. take a look
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Jeena i clicked on http://aaron.pk/n4Ug1 but that is a link to your own website not to facebook
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aaronpk there's a "view on facebook" link there
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Jeena ah here on the right
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Jeena ah you add "See original: ..." to the text hm.
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Jeena are you planing on adding links to it later on, for example the first linked url or something?
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aaronpk probably yeah, that was my first thought
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jonnybarnes does anyone know if XDebug + var_dump autoescaped HTML?
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jonnybarnes it must do, the HTML is defo html in the db itself;
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@nitot @karlpro I've become interested in IndieWeb stuff for this very reason. Heard about it? (twitter.com/_/status/436633707903217664)
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gRegor` The blog post in that last logged twitter exchange is good: http://kevin.lexblog.com/2014/02/18/blog-the-only-way-you-can-protect-your-content-and-legacy/
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@gRegorLove US News & World Report is getting rid of online content pre-2007. Good post on owning what you write: http://kevin.lexblog.com/2014/02/18/blog-the-only-way-you-can-protect-your-content-and-legacy/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/436650808642256896)