#indiewebcamp 2014-03-21

2014-03-21 UTC
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tantek or rather, if the format recommends escaping, it's a format failure.
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tommorris aaronpk: there’s nothing particularly wrong with putting Atom elements inside RSS 2.0 feeds, except for the whole RSS 2.0 thing. ;)
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tantek oh hey and it still validates! http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftantek.com%2Fupdates.atom
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tantek escaping makes feeds *even bulkier*
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tantek hey aaronpk - next IndieWebCamp is actually NYC so I'm going to fix the top level redirects to point to that (rather than /2014 PDX)
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tantek.com edited /Guest_List (+4) "NYC is the next one" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Schedule (+1) "NYC is the next one" (view diff)
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tommorris my feed is broken at the moment. I’m so tempted to just replace it with the output of an hAtom converter.
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tantek do it! Would be interesting to see the result
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tantek that would be a nice thing to run at the community level
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gRegor` tantek: I got the new attendee template in place on http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Guest_List#Creators
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gRegor` Next I'm going to set up a slightly modified version for apprentices.
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tommorris tantek: the only thing that is putting me off is I have some custom feed stuff for App.net
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kylewm I used the hashtag #siloproblems on Twitter, and it would appear the other hits are people dealing with actual grain silos, and people who work at a fish-n-chips place in NY :D
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snarfed kylewm++
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Loqi kylewm has 5 karma
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snarfed i have this far-off idea to eventually bundle activitystreams-unofficial, portablecontacts-unofficial, etc all together, unify the APIs, and rename the whole library "granary" in line with the silo metaphore
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snarfed i own granary.io and everything
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snarfed yet another buy-the-domain-and-maybe-never-get-to-the-actual-project
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kylewm love it, and I just learned the correct spelling of that word
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snarfed granary?
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kylewm yes, would've thought "grainary"
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kylewm ohh, hadn't looked at portablecontacts before
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kylewm that's very nice!
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KartikPrabhu w00t! added short url redirection http://kartikprabhu.com/~n3 any thoughts?
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Loqi giggles
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kylewm is "3" the database id?
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kylewm maybe I have really drunk the IWC koolaid, but http://indiewebcamp.com/algorithmic put me off using the db id in my permalinks
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kylewm I like the ~ though, reminds me of the good ol' days :)
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KartikPrabhu it is an encoded id which turns out to be same for lower numbers
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KartikPrabhu i did not understand the algorithmic page :(
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kylewm I guess the idea that (e.g., if you lost your database), you could conceivably re-create the links if they are based on something
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KartikPrabhu oh i see. is the problem that if my database table changes then all ids will be mixed up and mess up my urls?
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kylewm the database won't renumber your rows, but if you exported and reimported somewhere else, maybe they could?
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kylewm a little out of my depth now
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KartikPrabhu yeah must ask tantek
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KartikPrabhu !tell tantek: I was implementing a shorter URL scheme using db ids. but a bit confused about it due to http://indiewebcamp.com/algorithmic ... any elaboration would be helpful! :)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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kylewm !tell Loqi thanks for all your hard work
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KartikPrabhu nice tr kylewm
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kylewm was kinda hoping (s)he'd explode
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KartikPrabhu yeah Loqi is sort of smart
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Loqi dude
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: do you have short urls? if so, how do you generate them?
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kylewm I followed tantek's algorithm more or less to the letter (except I think I am using UTC times where he uses Pacific)
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kylewm uncreative...
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KartikPrabhu so it is datetime+?
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kylewm after 5pm yes
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kylewm sorry is that what you meant?
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KartikPrabhu oh no found the algo. I was asking datetime can't be enough but there is some unique identifier
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kylewm oh, yep datetime.toordinal() - date(1970, 1, 1).toordinal()
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KartikPrabhu yeah but usually there can be multiple posts a day specially for notes
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kylewm so there is a fourth # tacked on at the end that is a counter within the day
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KartikPrabhu oh but what if you delete a note?
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kylewm which feels a little bit like the same problem algorithmic warns against, but i couldn't think of a way around it
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kylewm I had that question too
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kylewm that would make it more difficult to reconstruct in the future
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KartikPrabhu yup
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kylewm wondered if ppl "hide" notes instead of deleting them
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KartikPrabhu but i like the algorithmic idea in spirit. interesting. will wait for tantek to arrive
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kylewm cool, I'm heading out but will be interested to know what you find out, good night!
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Loqi sweet dreams
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bret Made a little bit of progress. Hating the node express web framework the more I use it. iwc-log-feed.herokuapp.com
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bear our node devs like Hapi (after having done express for 2 yrs)
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bret I can't figure hapi out
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bret Trying to get their deva to write better exMples and tutorials
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bret Devs
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bear yea, they have a contest active for that
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bear our dev (who is a hapi contrib) just pointed me to this post @bret -- https://medium.com/p/d82777afaa4b
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bret bear: rad!
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bear hope it helps
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bret maybe, i need a lot of hand holding still. like, full on project walk throughs
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bear nods
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bret im starting to think node isnt the greatest place to start
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bret i gtg to bed
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bret later!
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bear night!
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cweiske it'd be nice if the wiki would store my URL, so that I don't have to type it on the next login
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cweiske.de edited /code (+159) "/* Cross-site fork buttons */" (view diff)
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Loqi tantek: KartikPrabhu left you a message 5 hours, 19 minutes ago: I was implementing a shorter URL scheme using db ids. but a bit confused about it due to http://indiewebcamp.com/algorithmic ... any elaboration would be helpful! :)
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tantek !tell KartikPrabhu using db ids is NOT algorithmic and introduces fragility.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KartikPrabhu tantek: yeah I sort of understood that later. but ins't using n-th note on this day fragile too, if you delete that note?
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Loqi KartikPrabhu: tantek left you a message 56 seconds ago: using db ids is NOT algorithmic and introduces fragility.
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tantek if you delete a note then it's fine for it to 404, unless it's a comment in which case you want it to 410 to follow comment CRUD protocol
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KartikPrabhu yes but if you base your URL shortening on "date + nth note on this date" (assuming that is what Whistle is doing) then it will mess up the other URLs
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pauloppenheim KartikPrabhu: if you want a tag more specific than day, would timestamp work?
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tantek KartikPrabhu - per the need to 410 gone for deleted comments, even your deleted notes should have tombstones
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tantek and thus you won't re-use their nth-ness.
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KartikPrabhu pauloppenheim yes that is one of the thigns I am considering. but doing it with slugs would be best IMO
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KartikPrabhu tantek: aah I see
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KartikPrabhu much thought needed.
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tantek also doing it with slugs is a bad idea, because your slugs should be editable without breaking the permalink
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KartikPrabhu interesting. so using slugs in URLs is a bad idea?
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tantek no, depending on them for uniqueness is a bad idea
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pauloppenheim ie, /2014-03-21/ - post index, and /2014-03-21/00:15/ could be the single post index?
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tantek kartikprabhu - all these design decisions and more are explained here: tantek.com/w/Whistle
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tantek pauloppenheim: or you might post more than one thing per second
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tantek er, per minute
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pauloppenheim i'm personally not convinced by the idea of "permalink", i'm not sure anything on the web will be "permanent"
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KartikPrabhu yes diud read that hence all the confusion. That goes against everythign I have built so far :(
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tantek there's lots there that goes against A LOT of things that were built before
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tantek deliberately
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KartikPrabhu true. but now I am conflicted whether to correct using slugs for unique URLs or to keep going with it
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tantek KartikPrabhu - you asked about the slug, but you must have missed this then if you did read that page: "The slug is purely for display and search, the unique portion of the URL is actually:"
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tantek anyway, the slug is semi-human-readable, thus it should be editable without breaking anything
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tantek thus it is unsuitable for permalink status
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pauloppenheim the issue is selecting immutability - you can make anything not change, so long as it remains actually immutable
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KartikPrabhu needs to make a decision. sounds like designing :P
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pauloppenheim KartikPrabhu: a content hash won't change ;)
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pauloppenheim SHA256 url :)
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pauloppenheim that's "permanent"
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pauloppenheim i'm a bad person to talk to about this right now, i'm actually dealing with it professionally right now
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tantek pauloppenheim: not helpful for a permalink, since content does change :P would be helpful for a checksum, but that's different.
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KartikPrabhu on a more positive note. Just showed off POSSEing notes to twitter to a friend and the reaction went "oooo nice!!! O_O le me is impressed"
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tantek that's great!
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tantek re: "sounds like designing" - that's why I documented my design with reasoning, so you could just copy it if you wanted to.
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pauloppenheim if it changes, date becomes less meaningful
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KartikPrabhu tantek: yes. and I am very glad you document all of this. Much to learn!
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tantek I was tired of people building fragile systems, and then copying their designs in a cargo cult manner.
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tantek So I figured I'd fix it, and show my work, hoping that some folks might find that (and check my work!) instead of just doing things the way everyone else does things.
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tantek database ID crap, slugs as fragile permalinks etc.
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tantek so much badly designed software out there
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KartikPrabhu yes. I learnt to use slugs from Django tutorials :|
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pauloppenheim dates are fragile for mutable content
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pauloppenheim IMO wikipedia is a better example for URLs with mutable content
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pauloppenheim (ie, using a moved page for renames, with an indication of move)
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tantek there's a lot of crappy designs in frameworks. A LOT.
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pauloppenheim yeah
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tantek pauloppenheim: creation dates are not fragile.
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pauloppenheim tantek: they're not memorable
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KartikPrabhu wishes he had thought of the whole URL thing before making stuff
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tantek pauloppenheim: they are memorable approximately, and relative to other things, so as long as you can remember things nearby, you can easily find them
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pauloppenheim i've actually had problems with this from using a date indexed system for over a decade
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tantek KartikPrabhu: got to start with well designed URLs for a website
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KartikPrabhu yes. but once a mistake is made there should be a way to correct it
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pauloppenheim KartikPrabhu: yes, that is the important part
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pauloppenheim unfortunately the idea of "permalink" makes changing difficult
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pauloppenheim it may be worth giving up on the idea if your content is still searchable somehow
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KartikPrabhu yeah I'll have to think a nit more on how to make this work
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tantek creation date works fine
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tantek also for searchability - hence the permashortcitations
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tantek pauloppenheim: I'm having difficulty connecting any of your criticisms to real world examples.
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pauloppenheim i took a photo of a notecard of the 10 places i want to visit in the next 20 years, sometime in the past 5 years
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pauloppenheim now find it
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pauloppenheim i can sit and try to specify the date better, but if it had only been tagged "travel", i would be able to find it in a snap
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pauloppenheim human memory is demonstrably fallow
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pauloppenheim it is located at a canonical path on my hard drive, but that path has no indication of the topic.
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pauloppenheim there's an example for you.
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@xjunhee RT @RPlayerword: @xjunhee RT?NEW FANBASE,SEDIA WGF,WGL,MENFESS,CURCOL,REQPICT,GAMES,MINTA SARAN UNAME?BOLEH!NEED ADMIN CEK WEBMENTION FOR F… (twitter.com/_/status/446914545978589184)
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KartikPrabhu well! that is a spam bot
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pauloppenheim tantek: don't get me wrong
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pauloppenheim i wish my scenarios wasn't a problem, because then I would have one less problem :)
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tantek !spammer xjunhee
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Loqi Got it! There are now 10 spammers blacklisted
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tantek pauloppenheim: that's poor reasoning. yes you should tag stuff. does the obviate the need for simpler permalinks? no. do permalinks solve everything? no. they never claimed to.
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pauloppenheim then what's the value?
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cweiske something you can link to
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cweiske and knowing that the link will not break
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pauloppenheim cweiske: right, but the wikipedia solution works for that constraint as well
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tantek pauloppenheim: wow really? simple and short way of sharing a pointer to some info on the web.
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pauloppenheim and does not require "url design"
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tantek pauloppenheim: not true. stuff (including URLs) get deleted on wikipedia all the time by deletionists.
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tantek WP URLs are badly unreliable in that regard
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KartikPrabhu tantek: can anyone use the spammer commnd?
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tantek KartikPrabhu: no, I think there's a whitelist
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KartikPrabhu aah ok.
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tantek but if you want to simple do the commands with a !tell aaronpk,tantek in front of it - one of us will notice and do it I'm sure ;)
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pauloppenheim tantek: false
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tantek pauloppenheim: "does not require url design" - only if you don't care about the UX of URLs
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pauloppenheim tantek: deleted pages show up
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pauloppenheim tantek: for instance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dads_Who_Make_Other_Dads_Eat_Bugs
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pauloppenheim (related, lol)
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cweiske it's 404 nontheless
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cweiske HTTP/1.1 404 Not Found
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pauloppenheim that's an artifact of implementation
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pauloppenheim it could be 410 just as easily
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tantek WP pages get moved then original URLs get re-used
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pauloppenheim right
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tantek WP pages for one thing / person get used for another
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pauloppenheim that's WP, I never advocated for that
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tantek sometimes for disambig
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tantek etc.
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tantek so no, WP URLs are crap for permalinks - sorry - and that was the case you were making
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pauloppenheim wait, you mean wordpress, or wikipedia?
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tantek wikipedia
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pauloppenheim by WP
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pauloppenheim oh
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pauloppenheim no, they remain meaningful, because they have history
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pauloppenheim in the face of renames and deletes
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tantek haha that's funny - clearly you haven't see what happens with moves and redirects and overwrites thereof
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tantek Mediawiki is actually not great at that
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pauloppenheim i'm confused, because i have, and that is exactly the reason i am advocating its usage
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tantek once you've moved a page, and it leaves a redirect in place, if that redirect is replaced with content, then POOF all previous history is lost
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tantek you can't find it
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tantek it's gone
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pauloppenheim for instance, a moved page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dice_Man
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pauloppenheim old URL still works
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tantek re-read the steps I said
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tantek anyway, off to bed, if you think Mediawiki is a good solution for permalinks, then run it on your own domain!
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pauloppenheim tantek: moving a page doesn't delete it
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pauloppenheim the name remains claimed
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pauloppenheim https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dice_Man&redirect=no
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tantek til then - your advocacy is more talk than real
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tantek you're still not reading
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tantek " if that redirect is replaced with content, then POOF all previous history is lost"
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pauloppenheim i think the redirect strategy
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pauloppenheim and mine's not done
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tantek so yeah - that happens on WP all the time
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tantek anyway, like I said, go for it, run Mediawiki on your own domain
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pauloppenheim i'm interested in their redirect strategy, not their software
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pauloppenheim i have run it, it makes me too frustrated otherwise
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tantek then reimplement the bits you like
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tantek to prove your point(s)
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pauloppenheim i am :)
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pauloppenheim it's just not there yet
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tantek great, add it to the /projects page when you've got something to show
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tantek until then, you're comparing vapor with shipping sites
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pauloppenheim i think wikipedia is rather extant
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tantek *personal* sites
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pauloppenheim but regardless of cred or argument, it is a thing that i want
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tantek already showed above how WP names fail
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tantek "once you've moved a page, and it leaves a redirect in place, if that redirect is replaced with content, then POOF all previous history is lost"
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pauloppenheim tantek: i'm not convinced you have
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tantek have seen it happen
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pauloppenheim tantek: not really: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dice_Man&action=history
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pauloppenheim for the page i have been referencing
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pauloppenheim it just becomes another entry in the history
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pauloppenheim i mean, hopefully the URL has meaning, and the new thing that goes there has the same meaning as the old thing
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pauloppenheim but if not, the data is still there
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tantek perhaps that page will be better gardened
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tantek I've seen others (couple of years ago, not sure which now) that were not
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tantek so yeah, if people have good behavior with change comments, that helps
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tantek but that's a people thing, not a system thing
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pauloppenheim regardless of behavior the data is there
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tantek no the data is only there in the change comments, which are based on human behavior
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pauloppenheim but yeah, not necessarily awesome, but possibly more human-valued than a raw date, but maybe not as much as a slug
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tantek hence why I use both in my URLs
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pauloppenheim but then it's not a permalink if you change it
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pauloppenheim hence we've come full circle
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tantek it is in the same way that random referrer query strings are irrelevant
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tantek nothing says the entire URL has to be the "perma" part of the permalink
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pauloppenheim ?
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tantek you go build your system and we can compare.
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pauloppenheim i guess people do modify URLs to find what they want...
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pauloppenheim ok
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tantek until then I think you're arguing about mostly a hypothetical way of maybe using some of mediawiki's mechanisms but reimplemented
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tantek so - have no idea if anything you're suggesting will actually work as you claim
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pauloppenheim well, i *could* use mediawiki, but i am not sure i want to live with it
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tantek til you build and use it
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tantek I wouldn't
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tantek others have abandoned it (e.g. aaronpk)
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pauloppenheim yeah
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tantek anyway, I am interested in the larger topic of indie wiki pages - and the design thereof. I've written a bit of code but mostly documented by brainstorming here if your'e curious. http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki-projects#Brainstorming
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pauloppenheim mediawiki eats crackers in bed
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pauloppenheim aha, more tantek brain dump to soak up, i like
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tantek the design is by no means complete, but I'm fairly convinced of the line of thinking.
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tantek might still run into obstacles while implementing, usual caveat
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pauloppenheim that's half the fun
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tantek figured I'd at least braindump the design so far rather than waiting for a sense of completeness/pefection
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pauloppenheim we're on unexplored land
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tantek anyway, see what you can get working minimally and quickly
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tantek or feel free to park your design thoughts somewhere too and move on to something simpler and quicker. both are reasonable approaches.
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pauloppenheim that's back-burner, next is simple indieauth
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tantek as long as you get *something* done
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tantek yeah - do you keep a list?
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pauloppenheim it's slow, man
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pauloppenheim not online
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pauloppenheim it's in a text file
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tantek e.g. on your http://indiewebcamp.com/ User: page?
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tantek might help to keep you focused
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pauloppenheim i want to get indieauth working so i can share things with friends :P
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pauloppenheim privately, that is
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tantek great - start with just that item then!
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tantek (I mean a list with)
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pauloppenheim yeah, that's fair
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pauloppenheim.com edited /User:Pauloppenheim.com (+65) (view diff)
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tantek woot!
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Loqi :D
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tantek.com edited /events/2014-03-12-homebrew-website-club (-42) "/* Photos */ use uploaded photo" (view diff)
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tantek good night!
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Loqi gute nacht!
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pauloppenheim night tantek
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tantek.com edited /Main_Page (-10) "/* Homebrew Website Club */ update photo, and date of next event. let's see if it gets created tomorrow ;)" (view diff)
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@codeshaman @davidmead Been reading about #indieweb, and it looks like just the thing for me. We should talk. I need perspective and tips. (twitter.com/_/status/446966441674149889)
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@davewiner If you love interop, ask the "IndieWeb" guys, @tantek, to accept RSS. It's here, now, let's make it work better. http://scripting.com/2014/03/21/theWebIsMadeOfInterop.html (twitter.com/_/status/446998685411713024)
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@davewiner @dsearls, please ask your friend @kevinmarks, to support RSS in his "IndieWeb" work. It's good for web independence and interop. (twitter.com/_/status/446999178351509504)
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@davewiner If you love RSS, @jeremyzilar, host of the next IndieWebCamp, it's part of what makes the web independent. It's not optional! :-) (twitter.com/_/status/446999625585942528)
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@boringfileclerk RT @davewiner: If you love RSS, @jeremyzilar, host of the next IndieWebCamp, it's part of what makes the web independent. It's not optional… (twitter.com/_/status/446999740430159872)
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@davewiner I'm calling on the people who run "IndieWebCamp" to give up the fight against RSS. It loves you! Love it back. ;-) (twitter.com/_/status/446999842725040128)
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@FamilyCTO RT @davewiner: If you love interop, ask the "IndieWeb" guys, @tantek, to accept RSS. It's here, now, let's make it work better. http://t.co… (twitter.com/_/status/446999844553375746)
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@webtechman RT @davewiner: I'm calling on the people who run "IndieWebCamp" to give up the fight against RSS. It loves you! Love it back. ;-) (twitter.com/_/status/447000195092713472)
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@gravatt RT @davewiner: I'm calling on the people who run "IndieWebCamp" to give up the fight against RSS. It loves you! Love it back. ;-) (twitter.com/_/status/447000198024155137)
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@io_panic RT @davewiner: I'm calling on the people who run "IndieWebCamp" to give up the fight against RSS. It loves you! Love it back. ;-) (twitter.com/_/status/447001111510396928)
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@davewiner @davidmead @t -- someone sent me a pointer to this page -- http://indiewebcamp.com/feed -- not much love there for RSS. ;-( (twitter.com/_/status/447005844778270720)
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@davidmead @davewiner Thanks. I'm diving back into #IndieWeb after some years away. Wasn't aware of a move from RSS. I'll have to read more. /cc @t (twitter.com/_/status/447007751265202176)
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KartikPrabhu looks like tantek just got invited to a twitter indieweb/RSS discussion
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@robverhoeven01 When will the SmartTV manufacturers become relevant again? #ownyourdata #owntheuserexperience (twitter.com/_/status/447012713487937536)
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kylewm I'd love to see an example of a "tombstone" for a deleted post, if anyone has one handy
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kylewm nm, found via the wiki
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brennannovak.com edited /store (+558) "/* App Information */" (view diff)
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brennannovak.com edited /store (+2) "/* App Information */" (view diff)
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brennannovak.com edited /store (+878) "/* Examples */" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: what is the tombstone example?
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KartikPrabhu or where on the wiki?
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KartikPrabhu nvm found it too :P
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cweiske http://werd.io/view/51c94f6ebed7de537c45de63
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KevinMarks Irony of Dave doing this on twitter, where he blocks me is amusing.
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kylewm It would appear that werd.io actually returns 410 for any URL miss http://werd.io/2014/nothing-here not just posts that have been deleted.
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kylewm Is it worth actually tracking deleted post to differentiate between "never here" and "not here anymore"?
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: shouldn't "never here" be a 404 and "not here anymore" be a 410?
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kylewm KartikPrabhu, that's what I'm wondering. It looks like idno returns 410 for both cases
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: yeah you are right. At first I thought the pages might be the same but different status codes, but no they are both 410
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KartikPrabhu !tell benwerd: any reason idno seems to return a 410 status code even if the page never existed, instead of 404?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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bnvk !tell aaronpk how often does the wiki kill my session login?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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brennannovak.com edited /store (+629) "/* Advantages */" (view diff)
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aaronpk waves
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Loqi aaronpk: bnvk left you a message 7 minutes ago: how often does the wiki kill my session login?
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bnvk oh, hehe, hi
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aaronpk bnvk: I tried to set the cookie length to like 60 days, but that might only take effect after the next time you log in
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aaronpk it seems to not be killing my session frequently the last couple days
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bnvk awesome, yah, it killed my session while I ate lunch and lost something I was typing :)
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aaronpk yeah i'm still logged in this morning after not touching the site since like 18 hours ago
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aaronpk ah yeah, I never trust web forms to actually keep what i'm writing over a long period of time in general
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aaronpk either short edits committing often, or I write in a local text file
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@gRegorLove @girlvsplanet It's a nice-looking, easy to use article engine. Except you don't get to own your data. #indieweb @Medium (twitter.com/_/status/447047276720947200)
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bnvk usually I do as well, but this was only 2 sentences
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aaronpk whoa @davewiner went on a twitter rampage this morning
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aaronpk KevinMarks: did he really block you on twitter?
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KartikPrabhu oh man! he still thinks there is a "indiewebcamp war on RSS"!
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aaronpk KartikPrabhu: kylewm: also see: http://indiewebcamp.com/deleted
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: yes that would be one reason for the whole deleted/never here discussion
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aaronpk ah cool just wanted to make sure you saw that page :)
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KartikPrabhu tantek: how is your war on RSS going?
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KartikPrabhu :P
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snarfed glad to see we're working on the store page
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snarfed i've always said that's the key thing indieweb is missing
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snarfed ...
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snarfed monetization!!!
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snarfed (kidding)
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bnvk hehe, you joke, yet I have plans... mwuhahahaha
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Loqi hehe
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bnvk well, actually, it would work really nice with this idea floating around the crypto currency communities called DAO (distributed autonomous organization), imagine auto payments getting handled via a blockchain upon install of something
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kylewm snarfed: is it possible to use activitystreams-unofficial as a library, without google app engine?
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snarfed kylewm: it's encouraged!
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snarfed oh, w/o app engine
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snarfed it *should* be usable w/o app engine…but may be rough
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snarfed i definitely want it to work though, so i'm happy to help
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kylewm actually all I want to do is test parsing https://twitter.com/kyle_wm/status/446818317408280576 to see if it finds the permashort citation
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@kyle_wm Facebook warning me about following a t.co link to NYT! #siloproblems (kyl.im n4VA1) https://twitter.com/kyle_wm/status/446818317408280576/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/446818317408280576)
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snarfed it may be as easy as pulling out the appengine imports and cleaning up any dangling usages, which should be minor
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snarfed ah, for just testing, there's http://twitter-activitystreams.appspot.com/
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snarfed i haven't updated it in a while though. i'll do that now.
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@andrewshell RT @davewiner: If you love interop, ask the "IndieWeb" guys, @tantek, to accept RSS. It's here, now, let's make it work better. http://t.co… (twitter.com/_/status/447057872095285248)
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snarfed bnvk: interesting! DAO sounds like "direct democracy" or "participatory economics"
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snarfed e.g. https://snarfed.org/2012-03-25_how_should_groups_make_decisions
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aaronpk is not interested in blockchain-based currencies. wake me up when there is something different.
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snarfed heh
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snarfed currency is the kind of thing where i want to be a very, very, very *late* adopter. not an early adopter.
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aaronpk has actually used a real "indie" currency daily for the past 8 years
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bnvk snarfed: yah, sounds about right
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aaronpk i say "real" because I am able to get use out of it and none of you have to even know it exists
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snarfed aaronpk: …begs the question...
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aaronpk you don't even have to believe in it
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bnvk aaronpk: what is your particular qualm with blockchain based technology as a whole?
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snarfed grabs popcorn
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bnvk lol
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bnvk aaronpk: I figured you just didn't like the runaway money hungry investor bitcoin mentality, not blockchains as a whole
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aaronpk http://anth.ro/n4Ud2
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gRegor` Haha
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bnvk so it's just that aspect, gotcha
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kylewm snarfed, ok I didn't need to test at all, just look closer at the regex, oops
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aaronpk doesn't really want to get into it. it's a relatively unpopular opinion these days, and I have something that works for me, so meh
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snarfed kylewm: aha, good
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snarfed updates twitter-activitystreams.appspot.com anyway
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snarfed kylewm: happy to accept PRs if the regex needs improving
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kylewm it expects (sensibly) the citation to be at the end of the source .. but when you include media in a tweet it sticks a pic.twitter.com link at the end
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snarfed ahh right
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gRegor` Is the indie currency you speak of, "USD", aaronpk? :)
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aaronpk gRegor`: no, it's trading coffee debt
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snarfed i originally accepted permashortcitations anywhere, but there were too many false positives
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bnvk aaronpk: fair, I wasn't wanting to rile you up, was just curious as I remember how interested you were in making your own currency / methods of exchanging money
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gRegor` Ooh. Nice, aaronpk. :)
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aaronpk basically a shared ledger with a small group
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gRegor` I like the idea of coffeecoin.
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snarfed kylewm: just fyi, PSCs never got much adoption, and it's not clear that they will
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bnvk gRegor`: wait, did you see my blog post?
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aaronpk which is only vaguely a currency, but then bitcoin is also just a shared ledger with a much larger group
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gRegor` bnvk: Nope. Link?
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snarfed permashortlinks may have a bit more potential, e.g. (kyl.im/n/123) as opposed to (kyl.im n/123)
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bnvk oh, ref: aaronpk mention of coffee, hehe
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gRegor` Oh, I thought maybe you'd written a post about "coffeecoin"
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kylewm snarfed, interesting, yes that makes sense. trade people asking "what are those cryptic codes at the end of yoru tweets" for "why do you always link to stuff at the end of your tweets"?
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kylewm snarfed, thanks for the food for thought (and I still want to play with activitystreams, but GAE was giving me fits this morning so I gave up)
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bnvk gRegor`: but this is what I mean http://bnvk.me/61E
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bnvk just a scribble really
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snarfed kylewm: yeah. i still don't think we've found a way to do original post links in twitter that other twitter users are ok with
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gRegor` PSC? Perma short code?
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snarfed np kylewm! feel free to ping me on gae problems too, i'm pretty familiar with it. :P happy to help
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snarfed gRegor`: permashortcitation
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snarfed http://indiewebcamp.com/permashortcitations
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snarfed i wouldn't encourage using them, but that's just my opinion
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gRegor` Ah
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gRegor` Yeah, it doesn't seem likely we'll ever need to prove our indieweb post is the original post, right?
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snarfed oh no, they're not really for "proof" as much as just linking back without implying that there's more content in the original post when there actually isn't
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gRegor` And original post discovery, right?
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gRegor` It would be nice if Twitter supported it as metadata
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snarfed definitely!
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kylewm I looked through the API quite a bit, was hopeful that they'd let me sneak something into "entities" but no dice :)
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kylewm what if you had a webmention-like endpoint for syndication-reverse-lookup?
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kylewm i guess it would add yet another step to original-post-discovery... need to give it some more thought
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aaronpk ha interesting
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aaronpk but you'd have to know the domain to go look at before you could do that
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KartikPrabhu tantek: Any reason base60 uses 'underscore' instead of 'hyphen' ?
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KartikPrabhu or any reason switching to hyphen would be bad?
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snarfed aaronpk, kylewm: true. easy to use the web site in the profile, though, rel-me/indieauth style
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snarfed bridgy already now pulls and uses that when it's available. needed it for publish.
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aaronpk that seems highly silo-specific
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aaronpk like how do you get to the profile given a permalink to a tweet?
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tantek whoa lots to catch up on
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tantek KartikPrabhu that thing about identifiers
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tantek pretty sure choice of symbols is already covered in tantek.com/w/NewBase60
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tantek scrolls up
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snarfed1 btw, little-known feature: you can use twitter-activitystreams.appspot.com (and facebook-activitystreams.appspot.com, etc) to convert any silo post to mf2, either html or json
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tantek KartikPrabhu: what war on RSS? the Atom/RSS war? That's over. They both lost.
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snarfed1 both web ui and api available. just authenticate and then set the format drop-down to json-mf2 or html
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KartikPrabhu tantek: no i realise I can't use both "human readbility" but I could replace underscore with hyphen? I was referring to a Dave Winer tweet :P
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aaronpk tantek: actually it looks like hyphen appears first in the list of "HTML ID and NAME tokens", and the derivation section fails to mention why underscore over hyphen
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tantek Kylewm - you should add that photo and commentary to the /Facebook page https://twitter.com/kyle_wm/status/446818317408280576
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@kyle_wm Facebook warning me about following a t.co link to NYT! #siloproblems (kyl.im n4VA1) https://twitter.com/kyle_wm/status/446818317408280576/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/446818317408280576)
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tantek love this: http://caseorganic.com/notes/2014/02/17/2/
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kylewm tantek, I was going to but later realized it was doing it for every outgoing link
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tantek kylewm - that's still a bad UX
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tantek that's the point, not the NYT part
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kylewm OK, just at first I thought it was explicitly marking t.co (twitter) links
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kylewm inter-silo malice
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kylewm (like how instagram photos don't show up in twitter streams)
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aaronpk that was instagram's choice tho, not twitter's
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kylewm yes
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tantek aaronpk - BS - they're both at fault
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tantek Twitter is insisting on others' adopting their proprietary TwitterCards metacrap
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tantek Instagram just said no to that, which is perfectly reasonable
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aaronpk yeah, just pointing out that it wasn't like twitter was directly attacking instagram on that
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gRegor` Hm, I always assumed it was Twitter since instagram links worked one day but not the next
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tantek Instagram experiment with Twitter Cards and then dropped them. I don't blame them.
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aaronpk instagram just removed the proprietary twitter card markup
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gRegor` I thought it was exactly that, since they launched their own pic service
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gRegor` Ah
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@ShaneHudson I think #indieweb might like this slide #edgeconf. Removing data from monopolies https://twitter.com/ShaneHudson/status/447066612558860288/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/447066612558860288)
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KevinMarks After twitter revoked instagram friend lookup on twitter, iirc
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tantek BTW - I was able to get instagram to adopt rel=me - so if there's more standard markup we want them to add - we can do so too
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tantek KevinMarks - yup - love those bizdev mindsets
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tantek (not)
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@nhoizey @tkadlec perfect for http://indiewebcamp.com/webmentions (twitter.com/_/status/447066898564677633)
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tantek ShaneHudson - how does that slide support anything indie*web*?
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KevinMarks The really stupid one was twitter revoking Google's firehose access. Now they're wondering why growth is falling off with tweets hard to find
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tantek hey bnvk what "sounds sensible" to you?
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tantek !tell bnvk what "sounds sensible" to you?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek KevinMarks - growth falling off? citation?
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Loqi benwerd: KartikPrabhu left you a message 1 hour, 48 minutes ago: any reason idno seems to return a 410 status code even if the page never existed, instead of 404?
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KevinMarks http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/02/06/technology/twitters-share-price-falls-after-it-reports-4th-quarter-loss.html
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@nobantu LastDay4 #IIW EarlyBirdRegistration : http://www.eventbrite.com/e/internet-identity-workshop-xviii-18-2014a-tickets-10266396067?aff=eorg May 6 - 8 #PersonalData #VRM #indieweb #personalclouds #privacy #unConference (twitter.com/_/status/447068657877655553)
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KartikPrabhu a question on Google+s mf page: https://plus.google.com/109577634910367275570/posts/EYHB1nuKoBz
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KartikPrabhu The SEO folks seem to be selling microdata and RDFa really hard
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benwerd (The SEO reply to @EvilTantek is the best thing I've seen this week)
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snarfed1 KartikPrabhu: as tantek would say, "step back slowly"
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snarfed1 hey benwerd! long time no see
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benwerd howdy!
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snarfed1 glad austin didn't kill you :P
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KevinMarks This has led to reports of twitter abolishing @ and #, though Vivian schiller denied that
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tantek SEO folks enjoy jumping through Google's hoops no matter how high
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KevinMarks Check out @vivian's Tweet: https://twitter.com/vivian/status/446337865467699200
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@vivian @StKonrath @cwarzel Not at all (twitter.com/_/status/446337865467699200)
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benwerd snarfed1: I literally had to have an FBI background check while I was there. Rigorous.
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tantek Google's good at making them SEO folks do tricks.
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snarfed1 ugh snarfed1. brb.
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tantek heh
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tantek KevinMarks - people misinterpreting things on Twitter? I'm shocked. ;)
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tantek hiding the "@username " at the start of replies makes sense in a threaded display context.
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KevinMarks Though it may get odd with multiple replied to people
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KevinMarks Tantek if instagram has rel me, would it work for indieauth?
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Loqi bnvk: tantek left you a message 15 minutes ago: what "sounds sensible" to you?
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aaronpk bnvk: what happened to your rss feed? there's no content in it https://brennannovak.com/feed
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bnvk ooo, not sure, shoot
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KartikPrabhu stop hating on RSS you guys
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bnvk tantek: where did I say "sounds sensible" ?
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KartikPrabhu runs off
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bnvk damn it, my RSS was working
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KevinMarks We don't hate rss, we just feel it should retire gracefully
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gRegor` Hahaha to @eviltantek and @silowebcamp
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snarfed KevinMarks++
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Loqi KevinMarks has 8 karma
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks++
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Loqi KevinMarks has 9 karma
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benwerd KevinMarks++
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Loqi KevinMarks has 10 karma
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snarfed man. rss/atom opinions are such a great example of how even in a community this small, there are vocal minorities and silent majorities
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snarfed gotta love human nature
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gRegor` "I think it [the wah wah peddle] had its moment a long time ago. Kinda like Netscape or something." - Moby
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gRegor` I don't really get the anti-RSS sentiment.
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KevinMarks Check out @blaine's Tweet: https://twitter.com/blaine/status/447053221786562560
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@blaine @davewiner @marcusnelson @ralphm we sure tried. I sure tried. A lot. For years. Until I gave up because, well, egos. Fuck egos. (twitter.com/_/status/447053221786562560)
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tantek KartikPrabhu - it's not hate, it's more sadness & disappointment.
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tantek hahaha - what?
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snarfed gRegor`: i think i do. plain html wasn't enough on its own, but with microformats, feed readers have all the info they need from a blog's html itself. they shouldn't need a separate feed file.
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KartikPrabhu I was of course being snarky/sarcastic about the "hate RSS" thing
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gRegor` Oh, I know, KartikPrabhu :)
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snarfed …which i agree with…but i think we've overstated our case, and people have interpreted it as "we hate rss/atom," as opposed to, "we think mf2 is a good successor"
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tantek KartikPrabhu - yeah, it's just a sad situation though.
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tantek snarfed - nope, not "people have interpreted" - just a strawman
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snarfed tantek: do you agree with that summary? you probably feel the strongest, so i'm curious if i have it right.
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bnvk I wonder if it was more that the virality and people centric (avatars, names, etc... that jack into our big social brains) inherent to social media, yet devoid of RSS, that really killed it, not all this speculation
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snarfed eh maybe. the language on /feed is (or maybe was) probably stronger than most of us would agree with
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bnvk *in
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tantek snarfed - nah, the real tragedy is the time wasted on the RSS/Atom wars.
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tantek so we just ignore them
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tantek bnvk - bingo - RSS was/is being abandoned. We just documented it.
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tantek don't blame the messenger
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gRegor` Oh, so this is the "RSS is dead" argument?
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gRegor` Meh
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tantek gregor - yeah exactly
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gRegor` A whole lotta sites out there have RSS feeds, for them being so dead.
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tantek gregor - fewer and fewer
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tantek that's the point, hence *dying*
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gRegor` Examples?
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KartikPrabhu Yes, but how many people consume them?
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tantek gregor - /feed
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gRegor` KartikPrabhu: Far more than consume mf2
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tantek like I said, we're just documenting the demise of RSS, not causing it
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bnvk hrm
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gRegor` I'm all for improving (mf2 feeds), but I think the "RSS is dead" is silly
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tantek bnvk - you're own RSS feed dying proves the point
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tantek not worth the maintenance tax
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tantek your* own
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tantek heh
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bnvk that just broke, I fixed it a few months ago, but yah... the fact that it was just brought to my attention
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bnvk validates your point
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KartikPrabhu oh no one is claiming that mf2 is the bestest. but it does some of the issues with RSS
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bnvk sigh
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gRegor` I didn't think "we" (or anyone) are causing it. I just have seen articles for years about RSS dying, yet it's still here (and haven't seen much evidence of it dying).
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KartikPrabhu solve some
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tantek bnvk - oh it broke before?
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bnvk lol
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tantek how long did it take for someone, *anyone* to mention it?
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tantek how long was it broken?
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bnvk not sure
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tantek doesn't that seem to indicate no one is actually consuming it or cares?
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bnvk I believe snarfed pointed it out
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tantek so all this "people consuming RSS" rumors are basically overplayed
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gRegor` I set up my RSS feed years ago and it's been working fine. *shrug*
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tantek gregor - you're an exception
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tantek so good for you
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tantek similarly I setup my Atom feed years ago and it's been (mostly) working
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tantek (only real problem was excess bandwidth)
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tantek so someone/something polls it a lot, but who knows who actually cares?
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bnvk yes, but it's an interesting flaw perhaps in feed readers that they didn't make the "report broken feed" to owner an easy users project
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bnvk process
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gRegor` Similarly, every WordPress install has a feed that works out of the box, sans messing it up manually or with a plugin. (latter is hypothetical, I've not seen it personally)
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gRegor` I agree on the DRY point, of course
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KevinMarks Also that your xhtml embedding blows up feed readers that assume crappy escaping
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tantek bnvk - that's what you see as "an interesting flaw … in feed readers" ?!?!?
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tantek not the lack of integration with posting tools etc.?
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bnvk tantek: you're saying user feedback should be on the onus of the platform doing the publishing detecting the post is broken?
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bnvk errr *feed* is broken
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tantek bnvk - I'm saying you're lost in the weeds of a 2000-era mindset. "feeds" "syndication" etc.
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snarfed i kinda feel like we're agreeing violently, and the only argument is over degree
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snarfed saying *no one* consumes rss/atom is an overstatement, but we'd probably all agree that *fewer and fewer people* consume it
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tantek if you're focusing on such problems
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tantek snarfed - right
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snarfed and "fewer and fewer" still means we should migrate to mf2, etc
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tantek the only way to "win" the RSS/Atom war is not to play
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tantek hence not worth engaging on this nonsense on Twitter
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tantek where the few folks advocating RSS do so, by posting content somewhere WITHOUT an RSS feed.
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snarfed right. and those of us who still use and love our feed readers can keep using them, right now, while we work toward replacing rss/atom
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tantek snarfed - I have no imminent plans to turn off my Atom feed for example.
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snarfed glad to hear it! since i still happily consume it :P
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KevinMarks Reading the issues and tests for universal feed parser is a useful corrective to thinking rss works
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snarfed but yeah. anyway. we should find some other big piece of indieweb news to try to distract people :P
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tantek snarfed, true!
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snarfed quick, someone ddos twitter!
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snarfed (kidding. kidding. don't. nsa, i'm a good guy, i swear.)
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tantek sigh
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bnvk tantek: I don't think i'm lost or stuck in a 2000-era mindset, thank you ;)
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tantek … says the guy working on EMAIL
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tantek ;)
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KevinMarks I just discovered that Google now can listen to the TV and tell me what is on.
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tantek yeah, I was off by a couple of decades. ;)
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tantek KevinMarks - like Shazam for TV shows?
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KevinMarks Yes, though apparently only live ones, not DVRd
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tantek snarfed, Bridgy really helped a lot of people "get" POSSE / backfee
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bnvk I realize that, yes, I'm working on an app built on a protocol with a 2.5 billion person adoption ;)
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@Zestryon What is the IndieWeb? (blogging reloaded, in a nutshell :) http://indiewebcamp.com via @nitot @ecrans http://ecrans.liberation.fr/ecrans/2014/03/21/le-56kast-17-les-25-ans-d-un-web-a-se-reapproprier_988857 (twitter.com/_/status/447077530299039744)
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tantek s/backfee/backfeed
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Loqi tantek meant to say: snarfed, Bridgy really helped a lot of people "get" POSSE / backfeed
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snarfed tantek: that's great! i'm glad to hear it
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tantek similarly, integrated reading/writing UIs will help another set of folks "get" it
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snarfed man, i hope!
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tantek in terms of why an indieweb site matters, much more than separate feeds/readers
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bnvk with that said, I'm gonna give it the ole college try for another year or two, if email is still as dismal I'll agree with ya full :)
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tantek bnvk - given how distributed/federated email is, I want to believe it is "just" a UX problem - but it's not. comes back to the difficulty of hacking your own email server etc.
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bnvk like I said, give it a year or two ;)
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tantek but yeah, if you can solve that problem, you will have achieved something incredible.
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tantek totally. not going to underestimate you. :)
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bnvk :)
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tantek (to be clear, I *am* rooting for you to succeed)
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bnvk I know, I think :)
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aaronpk related to integrated read/write UIs... I had really good luck so far writing a microformats2 adapter into the selfoss reader
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aaronpk the next step of course is to put the "write" UI into it using micropub
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aaronpk selfoss seems to be the farthest along reader that I could do that with, so I'm tempted to find/make some time for that and dive into it
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snarfed aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 400 karma
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aaronpk I don't really want to write a whole new reader from scratch
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bnvk Selfoss is a dreary lil town outside of Reykajvik with a river running through, and terrible restaurants!
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KevinMarks I need to unfuck noterlive.com and get back on the micropub coding
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tantek aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 401 karma
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bnvk aaronpk: is that committed here https://github.com/aaronpk/selfoss ?
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aaronpk yes
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bnvk aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 402 karma
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aaronpk that's my fork, I haven't submitted a PR yet cause it's still kind of messsy
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bnvk is http://indiewebcamp.com 502
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aaronpk hey! what
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bnvk for anyone else? or do the gods hate me
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gRegor` 502 here
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snarfed KevinMarks++ for unfucking
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gRegor` Bad Gateway! Go stand in the corner and think about what you've done.
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snarfed (…anything really)
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snarfed gRegor`: lol
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aaronpk working on it
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aaronpk back
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aaronpk not sure what happened, php-fpm stopped responding
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bnvk cool
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KevinMarks I love that the whole of Turkey is discovering dns and VPN tools
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KevinMarks https://medium.com/technology-and-society/778b806e38e3
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benwerd Did you see that 8.8.8.8 graffiti? Amazing.
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tantek huh?
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benwerd https://twitter.com/enginonder/status/446819815106576384
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@enginonder #twitter blocked in #turkey tonight. folks are painting #google dns numbers onto the posters of the governing party. https://twitter.com/enginonder/status/446819815106576384/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/446819815106576384)
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benwerd A little odd that it's Google's DNS that's being promoted, mind you.
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benwerd Btw, anyone encountered Twister? It's (I'm not joking here) an encrypted decentralized Twitter partially based on the Bitcoin protocol
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KevinMarks Ethanz cat principle strikes again http://www.ethanzuckerman.com/blog/2008/03/08/the-cute-cat-theory-talk-at-etech/
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tantek benwerd, this is how it starts. govts screw up so badly that people being trusting and advocating multinationals instead.
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tantek multinationals aren't going to take over, they're going to be handed authority by the people
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tantek cue all scifi dystopia scenarios where multinationals run things and natl govts are odd little leftovers.
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KevinMarks I heard about it. Bitcoin as pki, bittorrent as distribution?
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benwerd tantek: Which isn't a million miles away from the situation we currently enjoy, unfortunately, particularly behind the scenes. Completely agree.
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KevinMarks Eric shmidt explicitly stated that, Tantek
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benwerd KevinMarks: Right. Couldn't install it, because of really onerous dependencies. But interesting.
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tantek benwerd agreed, point is, this is how it transitions to being in front of the scenes.
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benwerd Agree again.
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KevinMarks http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/3232780/
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gRegor` Speaking of things built on cryptocurrencies, .bit is an odd little DNS based on namecoin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.bit
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tantek KevinMarks, from that medium post, the last image has a poster on a metal wall that says: DNS NASIL DEĞİŞTİRİLİR? which translates to: "How to change DNS?"
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tantek and note the subheadings: ANDROID and PC/FIREFOX :)
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tantek amazing.
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tantek https://d262ilb51hltx0.cloudfront.net/max/800/1*3pzJ24f3eavSLZA1EFryDQ.jpeg
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KevinMarks That turkey's twitter traffic went up...
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tantek that image is so gibsonian I just don't even
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tantek (as in William)
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benwerd I'd love to know who's printing & distributing the posters
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tantek I want a copy of that poster
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tantek seriously
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Loqi gives tantek a copy of that poster
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tantek thanks Loqi ;)
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Loqi you're welcome
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tantek Nevermind people "not understanding URLs", people are being taught about DNS!
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KevinMarks And VPN too
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tantek so can the people adapt faster than the authorities can shutdown/intercept the adaptations?
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tantek this will be interesting to watch
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@kevinmarks “the Extraordinary comes from the Extra Ordinary. So: you are an artist. You always have been.” http://sxsw.com/music-film/news/2014/jarvis-cocker-watches-hackers-writes-sxsw-huffpo #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/447087862681305088)
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tantek KevinMarks - I didn't get it - what was the point of that speech?
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@nitot RT @Zestryon: What is the IndieWeb? (blogging reloaded, in a nutshell :) http://indiewebcamp.com via @nitot @ecrans http://ecrans.liberation.fr/ecrans/2014/03/21/le-56kast-17-les-25-ans-d-un-web-a-se-reapproprier_988857 (twitter.com/_/status/447088608642891777)
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KevinMarks Jarvis Cocker may be a bit of an acquired taste. I am a big fan of his work, which is oblique and pop and eclectic at the same time. His point about "get on with it" felt indieweb to me
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KevinMarks Hmm that liberation link gave me a JS popup claiming I have viruses on my Android. Shady.
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aaronpk wow
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benwerd oh ffs. invited to a private, highly sensitive lung transplant discussion group, with serious data implications.
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benwerd it's on facebook.
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kylewm snarfed, my site seems to have made a mess of my reply to your reply
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aaronpk bret: do you have access to a laser cutter?
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gRegor` That huffpost link a bit ago reminded me how much I dislike loading their bloated pages, so I just set up an instapaper bookmarklet: http://pastebin.com/01fgqFFL
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kylewm huh, so is class="p-in-reply-to h-cite" the right way to markup a reply context? and if so, what happens if there is a class="u-url" somewhere in the content of the comment? e.g., http://kylewm.com/reply/2014/03/21/1 snarfed's comment has a u-in-reply-to inside it
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@Ssilou RT @Zestryon: What is the IndieWeb? (blogging reloaded, in a nutshell :) http://indiewebcamp.com via @nitot @ecrans http://ecrans.liberation.fr/ecrans/2014/03/21/le-56kast-17-les-25-ans-d-un-web-a-se-reapproprier_988857 (twitter.com/_/status/447097612538507264)
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: afaik reply-context markup goes "u-in-reply-to h-cite" then if the h-cite has any "u-url" then that is the url of the reply-context. If it has another "u-in-reply-to" then that is scoped to the h-cite itself
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kylewm thanks KartikPrabhu, So https://indiewebcamp.com/in-reply-to says p-in-reply-to is OK when you want to have more info than just the url ... but then I'm not sure what to do if there is more than one u-url inside there.
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kylewm it might be ok... maybe the worst that can happen is a duplicate u-url to the source comment that
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KartikPrabhu should't things have onyl one u-url anyway?
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kylewm yes
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kylewm but I'm just including the e-content object from the other person's comment
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kylewm (which is probably not brilliant/safe)
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KartikPrabhu yeah I still have to do proper reply contexts. Maybe i'll run into these issues then
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kylewm in the meantime if you want to reply to me and stick malicious <script> tags in the comment body, you are welcome to ;)
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snarfed kylewm: back now. any conclusion on your reply mf2 q's? need anything from me?
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tantek catches up on logs.
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tantek ooh reply questions
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tantek this is good stuff
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snarfed yup. kyle's rendering looks great to me: http://kylewm.com/article/2014/03/21/1/uploading-media-through-the-twitter-api , http://kylewm.com/reply/2014/03/21/1
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snarfed i'm jealous
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kylewm snarfed, I changed my markup a little bit and it updated and looked better. and thanks!
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tantek interesting. is that a multireply or a thread?
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tantek http://kylewm.com/reply/2014/03/21/1
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kylewm multi-reply
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tantek sweet
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kylewm thanks :) i hope to do threading eventually
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KartikPrabhu1 so multireply is one reply after another, where as thread is many replies to the same thing?
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tantek is updating the multireply page right now as we speak for exactly this reason (that there's such a question)
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KartikPrabhu you're goddamn right!
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kylewm lol
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KartikPrabhu :D been meaning to do that somewhere for quite some time
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tantek.com edited /multiple-reply (+590) "dfn, resort headers, indieweb examples, silo limitations, brainstorming" (view diff)
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tantek KartikPrabhu - does this help answer your question? http://indiewebcamp.com/multiple-reply
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tantek kylewm - add yourself to this section! http://indiewebcamp.com/multiple-reply#IndieWeb_Examples
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KartikPrabhu tantek: I seeI had it the other way round... interesting
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KartikPrabhu love how idieweb implementations are going beyond just immitating silos
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tantek KartikPrabhu: Twitter's display of a chain of replies and/or many replies to the same thing are so similar that it's hard to tell just by looking
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tantek so no surprise there's confusion
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tantek KartikPrabhu - indeed! going beyond what silos do is one of the huge benefits of having and creating your own IndieWeb site!
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tantek snarfed, earlier re: permashortcitations vs. permashortlinks, I tend to agree with you
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tantek as our "original posts" becomes more and more useful than any silo POSSE copy, it will make more and more sense to just use permashortlinks in POSSE copies - since users clicking on those will see more information (e.g. more indieweb/cross-site comments / likes)
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snarfed probably yeah
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aaronpk another "silo quit" http://geekabyte.blogspot.nl/2014/03/getting-personal.html
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tantek snarfed, do you think it would be helpful to describe permashortcitations as a transitional approach?
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tantek I'm trying to figure out a way of capturing some of the consensus coming out of the discussions here.
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snarfed tantek: maybe! transitional…to what?
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tantek transitional to permashortlinks
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tantek everywhere
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snarfed or at least, to original post links, which may be permashortlinks (but don't have to be) …?
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tantek sure
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tantek to perma(short)links :)
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snarfed sure, i agree
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snarfed i might describe PSCs as a worthwhile experiment which didn't catch on
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snarfed since we were doing original post links and PSLs before them
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snarfed and also after them
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tantek you don't see any value even in the case where the original provides apparent end user benefit over the silo copy?
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tantek the "I clicked on a link and saw nothing new" problem
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snarfed sorry, trying to parse. i don't see any value in…PSLs over normal permalinks?
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tantek PSCs over P(S)Ls
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tantek in the case where the original has nothing substantial beyond the POSSE copy
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snarfed oh. i agree that was the initial motivation, but in practice, i think we heard that PSCs annoyed people just as much as PSLs
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snarfed PSLs were annoying when there was no add'l value
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snarfed PSCs were annoying because ppl didn't understand them
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tantek interesting, I heard much *less* annoyance
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tantek non-zero, but definitely less
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snarfed ok.
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tantek have you not found any other PSCs via Bridgy?
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snarfed eh. we may be overthinking it. there's definitely been usage of all three, but maybe not enough to conclude anything clear yet. that's fine.
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snarfed good question! honestly i don't know. hard to data mine for, but i could try.
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snarfed personally i only remember seeing PSCs from you, andy sylvester, and kyle
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tantek.com edited /silo-quits (+561) "Dadepo Aderemi quits facebook" (view diff)
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tantek snarfed - do you have twitter accounts for sylvester and kyle?
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tantek kylewm, KartikPrabhu, were the "p-in-reply-to h-cite" questions answered?
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tantek (can't quite tell from the logs)
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snarfed tantek: yeah, AndySylvester99 and kylewm
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snarfed i'm wrong, i don't see a psc from andy
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KartikPrabhu tantek: somehow kylewm seemed to have multiple url props for his reply, which shouldn't happen really I think
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tantek KartikPrabhu - at which page (URL) ?
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tantek wants to compare presentation meaning vs. markup
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KartikPrabhu repost: ylewm: huh, so is class="p-in-reply-to h-cite" the right way to markup a reply context? and if so, what happens if there is a class="u-url" somewhere in the content of the comment? e.g., http://kylewm.com/reply/2014/03/21/1 snarfed's comment has a u-in-reply-to inside it
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tantek yes to first question
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tantek is looking at the markup
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KartikPrabhu i think I have been using u-in-reply-to but that shouldn't be a diff
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tantek either should be ok
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tantek u-in-reply-to works if all you have is a URL
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KartikPrabhu agrees
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tantek KartikPrabhu: so the question you ask re: u-url has a literal answer and I think an actual answer
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tantek literal answer - there is no u-url inside the content of the comment from snarfed
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tantek actual answer - if you're going to copy the e-content from someone's comment post to your own site, you need to be careful of all sorts of things people can do (un)intentionally in their markup that could screw up (visitors to) your site.
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tantek imagine if he'd put a <script> element inside his e-content - would you happily include that in your reply-context?!?
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KartikPrabhu yeah that would be a disaster indeed
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tantek in fact that might make for a good indiewebify webmention receiving test
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aaronpk <script>alert('you coulda been hacked')</script>
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KartikPrabhu i think mf2 parsers are supposed to filter those in the value property, but for the html proerpty i think the site author should filter appropriately
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snarfed tantek: in the scrollback, kylewm jokingly invited people to do exactly that (send <script>s to him in webmention e-contents)
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tantek have indiewebify send you a webmention comment that includes a <div class="e-content"><script>alert("Your server should filter e-content before reserving it")</script></div>
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tantek KartikPrabhu - so that's the larger problem with http://kylewm.com/reply/2014/03/21/1
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snarfed aaronpk and i and others have discussed this before. obviously you want to sanitize, but there's also clear value in including *some* tags. links, images, etc
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tantek it doesn't appear to be sanitizing the e-content from snarfed's site
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aaronpk snarfed: I disagree, I would rather re-link everything myself
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tantek including looking out for any naked uf2 properties
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snarfed no, i didn't mean to imply kylewm is sanitizing,.
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snarfed just that it's a good idea in general.
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KartikPrabhu yeah i think kylewm does not do that yet
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snarfed aaronpk: sure, that works too. but it's more than just links. imgs, <code>s, etc
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snarfed an easy first implementation is just a simple tag whitelist
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aaronpk I want to accept only a plaintext note, and if you have a bunch of formatting in it then it's probably an article and i'm just going to link to it with the article name anyway
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tantek I feel like we've documented discussion of this before
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tantek sanitization approaches/neeeds
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aaronpk probably in the reply page
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aaronpk or commnts
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KevinMarks_ like google's sanitizing image proxy?
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snarfed aaronpk: eh i dunno. i definitely see value in some formatting in comments, mainly styles, links, and imgs
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snarfed hell, people use them often in comments in silos. pictures and links in twitter/fb replies, bold/italics etc in g+ comments
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aaronpk links can be re-linked, I don't really want someone to put an image in my comment thread, the only one that reall can't be reconstructed is <code>
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gRegor` I see value in some formatting, too, but sanitizing HTML is a nightmare
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snarfed sure. and to be clear, everyone gets to make their own call. but i know i'd allow imgs in comments on my site, and i'm not alone
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tantek all I found is this: http://indiewebcamp.com/plaintext
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KevinMarks_ you need to whitelist
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tantek y'all need to document your existing approaches/implementations
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snarfed tantek: agreed!
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KevinMarks_ see http://pythonhosted.org/feedparser/html-sanitization.html
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tantek a bit too much "you need to" handwaving, KevinMarks :P
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snarfed KevinMarks: agreed. for those of us who want to allow some tags, i'd suggest we look at existing comment tag whitelists like wordpress's.
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snarfed takes a todo to find it and copy it to the wiki
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KevinMarks_ that link is a very good resource
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aaronpk snarfed: wait til you get a reply from me that contains a 10x2000 px vertical image :)
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tantek KevinMarks, depends on what you want to have happen on your site!
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snarfed aaronpk: heh. that's the beauty of hand moderation. everything has edge cases, but that doesn't mean you ditch the common case
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tantek aaronpk - lol
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gRegor` Agree on whitelisting, but even if you just allow <img> I think you can insert javascript that way. I thought I saw that, at least.
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KevinMarks_ https://web.archive.org/web/20080826033749/http://diveintomark.org/archives/2003/06/12/how_to_consume_rss_safely
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gRegor` Granted, my approach is that webmentions won't be displayed until I approve them, or if I whitelist the domain they're coming from (trusted parties)
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tantek sigh, all I said on http://indiewebcamp.com/comments-presentation is "e-content … use that, after filtering out unsafe HTML"
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tantek that's pretty insufficient
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tantek ok creating a sanitize page
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tantek unless someone has a better / more findable naming suggestion
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KevinMarks_ the most insanely thorough sanitizer is caja https://code.google.com/p/google-caja/
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KevinMarks_ or rather https://developers.google.com/caja/
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tantek to what end?
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tantek there's user experience trade-offs that none of those documents mention
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tantek I could even see variable sanitizing based on WHO the comment is coming from
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tantek e.g. maybe I allow images from trusted friends
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tantek and only plaintext from random commenters
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tantek this "one sanitizing approach fits all" approach is really shortsighted
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KevinMarks_ true
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tantek rather, plumbing-focused instead of UX-focused
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KevinMarks_ my point in posting those two links are that this is a deep hole to explore
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tantek which of course is expected from the domains those links are at
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@benwerd "#PESOS from Secret am I doing this right #indieweb" https://www.secret.ly/p/wcoubyckjckgvstnwkkrcmrbbr https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/447128403548700672/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/447128403548700672)
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aaronpk wat
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aaronpk berlol
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aaronpk blarg
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tantek.com edited /comments-presentation (+27) "sanitize" (view diff)
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aaronpk this is what happens when your ssh session to your IRC terminal is laggy
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tantek oh dear
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benwerd pioneers where he can
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tantek aaronpk, you weren't blarging at the Secret PESOS?
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aaronpk i was blarging at my "berlol"
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aaronpk which was supposed to be "benwerd lol"
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tantek or you could POSSE to Secret by putting the permalink into a QRcode as the bg image
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aaronpk haha oh no
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benwerd omg
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tantek lulz
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benwerd it's friday afternoon and I was fixing databases until 3am. this is all I got.
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snarfed hell, also s/Secret/Instagram/
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gRegor` I was wrong. The exploit I was thinking of requires an iframe, but the payload is obfuscated in a PNG: http://blog.sucuri.net/2014/02/new-iframe-injections-leverage-png-image-metadata.html
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tantek anyone reverse-engineered the Secret permalink ID format? e.g. wcoubyckjckgvstnwkkrcmrbbr
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tantek i.e.
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tantek 1. reverse engineer that
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gRegor` So shouldn't be an issue, presuming you don't display an iframe when showing comments from other sites. :)
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tantek 2. iterate through all previous Secrets
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tantek 3. publish to notsosecret.tumblr.com
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KevinMarks_ Google's favicon proxy: https://s2.googleusercontent.com/s2/favicons?domain=tantek.com
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tantek or just ping the internet archive with all secret permalinks
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KevinMarks_ Didn't Brad Fitzpatrick make his FB profile picture a QR code of his own domain?
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gRegor` To identify users, tantek?
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benwerd (https://www.secret.ly/p/qolqrluoptxmidhfszrnvluxkw)
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tantek gRegor - nah, just to get a raw dump of everything
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tantek you know, for the archives
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tantek KevinMarks - yeah that was his rel-me hack back in the day
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benwerd http://werd.io/2014/or-you-could-posse-to-secret-by-putting-the-permalink
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benwerd backs away slowly from himself
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aaronpk oh my
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@kevinmarks @benwerd that worked #indieweb https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/447131022639915009/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/447131022639915009)
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benwerd :D
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bret aaronpk: yeah a big one!
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gRegor` Hahaha
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aaronpk bret: YAY caseorga_ would like to cut something with it!
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Loqi does a happy dance!
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bret what are you trying to cut?
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aaronpk thin wood to make a game board
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KevinMarks_ and I can't see benwerd on secret
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benwerd its algorithm is the ultimate silo black box
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benwerd it lies, proveably
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aaronpk lies?
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gRegor` I was reading about how it works the other day. Interesting.
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bret aaronpk: rad! it runs with some funky software but we can probrably figure it out
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tantek "secret sauce"
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tantek you need to self-heart to share your own with all your friends
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tantek er, followers
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aaronpk wait that works?
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benwerd aaronpk: I'm pretty certain it sometimes labels friends as being generic area posts, as friends of friends, etc
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tantek it only sends a subset of the secrets from those you follow
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aaronpk benwerd: I think if someone has fewer than 8 contacts then it intentionally shows up as area posts
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tantek it sends you ALL of the secrets that your friends heart
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aaronpk benwerd: so maybe thats what you were seeing?
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benwerd could easily be
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KevinMarks_ except 'friends' is iOS addressbook, which for me is pretty random as I haven't used Apple addressbook since 2007
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gRegor` https://medium.com/secret-den/12ab82fda29f See "What doesn't happen"
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aaronpk heh, i have the opposite problem. i let facebook sync with my ios addressbook so all my facebook friends are potentially secret friends
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benwerd it's going to be pretty fun when they port to android and suck up everyone's google contacts list
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KevinMarks_ which is huge. Though most iOS users do use the addressbook
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KevinMarks_ this numberwang version needs to say "thats wangernum and rotate the board"
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gRegor` On the wiki guest list, is "Missed You" for people that said they were coming but didn't show up? Otherwise I'm not sure the difference between "Regrets" and "Missed You" http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Guest_List
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KevinMarks_ oh wait, it just did
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KevinMarks_ awesome
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snarfed gRegor`: i think people put themselves in regrets, and put others in missed you
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bret how do people parse h-entry without losing html links?
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bret do you sanitise the html? or re-link the value?
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gregorlove.com created /Template:Attendee-apprentice (+1102) "Creating apprentice version of Template:attendee" (view diff)
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snarfed bret: heh. we had a big discussion about that just an hr or so ago. check logs.
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bret XD ok
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bret missed that
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@scottcsherwood #OwnYourData "We believe in data portability. For that reason, our players can get an export of all of their data at any time" - @al86shaw (twitter.com/_/status/447136608245264384)
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snarfed tl;dr: some people strip them entirely, some include them entirely, some want to sanitize. tag whitelist is probably a good place to start, e.g. http://wpbtips.wordpress.com/2010/05/23/html-allowed-in-comments-2/
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bret html sanitizing.... thats a thing I could probrably find a library for
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gregorlove.com edited /Template:Attendee-apprentice (+1) (view diff)
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bret w00t https://www.npmjs.org/package/sanitize-html
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tantek.com created /sanitize (+1628) "stub with some stuff off the top of my head and from IRC" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /plaintext (+35) "linky, see also" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com/sandbox (+111) "/* Testing with new template */ Template:Attendee-apprentice" (view diff)
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tantek KevinMarks, snarfed, benwerd, aaronpk, please add to this and especially what you personally do on your own site (what markup you allow etc.) http://indiewebcamp.com/sanitize
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bret hey aaronpk, why do the logs have a bunch of 'U+0002' in them?
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bret http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2014-03-20&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=HTML5&group=0&user-agent=W3C_Validator%2F1.3+http%3A%2F%2Fvalidator.w3.org%2Fservices
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aaronpk might be an irc control character sneaking out
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snarfed thanks for starting the stub, tantek! updating now
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bret its pissing off these feed readers >:[ now, to figure out how to kill it
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werd.io edited /sanitize (+47) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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snarfed.org edited /sanitize (+236) "/* Approaches */ more on whitelisting HTML tags" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /Secret (+422) "stub" (view diff)
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KevinMarks_ I remember Google reader had a stupid feed sanitzer that would break blockquotes
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bret the irc logs-atom feed is close. running into sanitation issues though.... going to try a few things. here is a preview of the html that comes in the feed though: http://iwc-log-feed.herokuapp.com/htmltest
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tantek.com edited /sanitize (+46) "npmjs" (view diff)
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bret this will be good experience to build an h-feed to atom proxy next
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gregorlove.com created /Template:Attendee-apprentice/doc (+1648) "Template:Attendee-apprentice documentation" (view diff)
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snarfed.org edited /sanitize (+268) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ wordpress" (view diff)
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bret then I can experiment with publishing h-feed only, with atom provided by the proxy
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gregorlove.com edited /Template:Attendee-apprentice (+0) (view diff)
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gRegor` Any other wiki template requests? I'm on a roll. :)
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tantek yes, in the Guest Lists, "Regrets" is for when people explicitly cancel (e.g. even if they just message this channel saying they're sorry they can't go
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tantek whereas "Missed You" are for no shows
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tantek It's a polite way of keeping track of people who were too rude/inconsiderate to explicitly cancel
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bret more like shame box
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bret ;)
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tantek bret - subtle shame box - for those in the know
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tantek I chose the headings very deliberately
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bret i think you did well
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tantek so that there was no obvious shame in anyone's name coming up in a Google result
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tantek because that's not helpful
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tantek but it is helpful to keep track for the community
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gRegor` Makes sense
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tantek so that we learn and can encourage people to behave better in the future (e.g. in in-person conversations)
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kylewm sorry I missed the conversation about sanitizing, but it answered all my questions except maybe one -- would you recommend just always removing class="..." /style="..."
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tantek ok I think I've caught up with wikifying stubs for today's conversations
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tantek kylewm - good q
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tantek easy/safe thing to do is to remove both
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KevinMarks_ if you remove classes won't you eat any embedded microformats?
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tantek another alternative: drop "class", but keep "style" from "trusted" commenters
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tantek KevinMarks - indeed
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tantek just as "plaintext" removes plenty of nice styling
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tantek and might change meaning
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tantek KevinMarks, I think someone has to be brave and attempt a clever way to keep class names without risking the page content before we can recommend anything like that.
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tantek and so far, no one has
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tantek if you get comment embedding working on your site with class names included, that could be a good starting point for analysis.
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kylewm I suppose it would be nice to keep microformats, if you can sandbox them within the comment body?
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kylewm the problem I had is they were leaking into the h-cite they were part of
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tantek the problem is with naked uf property class names in the e-content that are outside of any embedded h-*
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tantek right, that get "hoisted" (as KevinMarks would say) up to containing h-*, e.g. h-cite
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KevinMarks_ hm. So put a class="h-quoted" around them?
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gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com/sandbox (+470) "empty list placeholder" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com/sandbox (+67) (view diff)
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tantek Kevinmarks - you do realize an "h-quoted" inside an "h-cite" seems silly right?
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tantek I mean, they're kind of the same thing
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KevinMarks_ yeah, just thinking of a way to avoid hoisting
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gregorlove.com created /Template:Attendee-placeholder (+653) "Creating placeholder version of Template:attendee" (view diff)
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tantek KevinMarks, kylewm it sounds like we're in new(ish) territory here
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tantek with "rich embedded citations" of a sort
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gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com/sandbox (+61) (view diff)
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tantek far beyond TCMOS or any other similar recommendations (which all only handle plain text embedded citations)
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gregorlove.com edited /Template:Attendee-placeholder (+14) (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /2014/Guest_List (-362) "/* Wait List */ Trying out the placeholder template." (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /2014/Guest_List (-68) "/* Apprentices */" (view diff)
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kylewm tantek, it's really interesting stuff... it seems a shame to lose the metadata
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kylewm though i can't think of a use case for keeping it right now
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snarfed perfect timing for this sanitizing conversation
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snarfed is composing a reply to benwerd, and putting a URL directly in the contents, just because he knows benwerd strips html tags but auto-linkifies URLs
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gregorlove.com edited /2014/Guest_List (+118) "/* Apprentices */" (view diff)
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benwerd snarfed: I need to switch to something more intelligent
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benwerd (repeat that refrain for all kinds of things)
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snarfed benwerd: eh. maybe, eventually, if it itches enough. ruthlessly prioritize, i say!
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benwerd :)
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tantek benwerd, or at least capture your itches so you can decide later whether they really itch that much or not.
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tantek also interesting to the rest of us to see what's itching you ;)
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benwerd I need to update that itches page
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tantek needs to go finish a blog post on URL experiments
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gregorlove.com edited /2014/Guest_List (-277) "/* Remote Participants */ More Template:Attendee in the wild!" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /2014/Guest_List (-121) "/* Regrets */ Switched to Template:Attendee-placeholder" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /2014/Guest_List (+111) "/* Missed You */ Switched to Template:Attendee-placeholder" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /2014/Guest_List (+117) "/* Regrets */" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /2014/Guest_List (-31) "/* Missed You */" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /multiple-reply (+95) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ kylewm" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com created /Template:Attendee-placeholder/doc (+1195) "Created page with "This template is used to generate a block when no one is on the list yet. == Blank Template == Copy, paste, and optionally enter a custom message: <pre style="line-height: 1.4e..."" (view diff)
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tantek it's great to work with so many builders and creators. thank you all for being here.
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kylewm.com edited /multiple-reply (+146) "/* Kyle Mahan */ added a little context about my use of multi-reply" (view diff)
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gRegor` http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Guest_List has templates for all the lists now.
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gRegor` And some hopefully helpful links to the templates / prompts in HTML comments when adding yourself to an empty list.
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gregorlove.com edited /Template:Attendee-placeholder (-41) "Remove mf since it's a placeholder, not an actual person." (view diff)
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snarfed welcome tantek. great to have such a good community organizer too. thanks for rallying us all!
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gregorlove.com created /Category:2014 (+47) "Mirrored description of 2013 category" (view diff)
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bret thanks t, and thanks for your hard work as well :)
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@malcolmblaney RT @davewiner: I'm calling on the people who run "IndieWebCamp" to give up the fight against RSS. It loves you! Love it back. ;-) (twitter.com/_/status/447153238853165056)
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KevinMarks_ should I ask dave if he wants to be an apprentice?
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bret no you shouldnt
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bret not sure what to do
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gRegor` Haha, that would be funny.
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bret it would be patronizing
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KevinMarks_ it would be, I was joking
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bret its cool to see his taking positie stance though
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gRegor` (Yeah, I didn't think anyone actually would)
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gRegor` So I'm not in the know, is this Dave/IWC an ongoing thing, or did he just mention IWC today kind of out of the blue?
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bret more positive*
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bret he noticed rss criticism on the feed page
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KevinMarks_ he's only a rel="me" away from being able to sign in
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bret didnt lke it
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kylewm.com created /User:Kylewm.com (+607) "about me" (view diff)
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bret debate with dave doesnt seem terribly productive, but it would be really cool to get him to at least understand waht we are trying to do here
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benwerd Complicated by a bunch of our (justified) criticisms towards an unrelated piece he wrote the other day, but I think he'd be an interesting perspective.
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KevinMarks_ I'd like to invite him to IWC NY
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bret benwerd: that was tough to read/watch
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kylewm benwerd, he said something to you like "I don't believe any of things you think I believe" did he expound on that at all?
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benwerd kylewm: not at all
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KevinMarks_ He said that in context he was saying it was a risk, but one you should take. It didn't read that way
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benwerd It really didn't, and that was enough to make it concerning
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bret but a totally rss feed hardened perspective would be nice, in direct context to all the stuff happening here
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gRegor` Are there any other examples of "mentions" streams, a la http://www.sandeep.io/mentions? I don't see anything on the wiki specific to that.
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gRegor` I am working on something similar, but I think I'm going to show the text of replies, so it appears more like the "Notifications" tab on Twitter
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kylewm gRegor`, I have mine as a (unpublicised) atom feed http://kylewm.com/mentions.atom
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