#indiewebcamp 2014-03-25

2014-03-25 UTC
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tantek (and yes, that legacy consumer support is why I personally still keep my /updates.atom working, despite the extra maintenance cost)
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snarfed prepares to beat a dead horse
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snarfed glad to hear you acknowledge the legacy consumer support
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tantek (it is however, lower fidelity than the h-feed at my home page, in an encouragement to consumers to switch)
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tantek snarfed - of course! that's the present state.
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snarfed agreed, that's really the one only reason, but it's a HUUUUUGE one
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tantek but legacy consumer support is a trailing indicator reason
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tantek hence "feeds are dying"
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snarfed eh. as usual, we agree on the principles, we just disagree on degree
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tantek at somepoint someone will just make a proxy for legacy support
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tantek snarfed - do we disagree on the direction? or just the velocity?
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pauloppenheim actually
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snarfed oh man. if it makes everyone drop this, i'll go build that proxy *right now*
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pauloppenheim wouldn't it be possible to take all that facebook markup and convert to h-feed?
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snarfed i think we just disagree on velocity, but it's maybe a big disagreement
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snarfed pauloppenheim: already done! http://facebook-activitystreams.appspot.com/
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tantek snarfed - I have a high degree of uncertainty on the velocity
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pauloppenheim no no
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pauloppenheim i mean on other sites
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snarfed eh that's ok. velocity is subjective anyway. disagreeing is totally fine.
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snarfed i just want to make sure indieweb community members feel like it's ok to both publish and consume rss/atom for years to come, until they truly don't need to
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snarfed while still working toward the h-feed future
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pauloppenheim the fb:page_id stuff
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tantek snarfed - of course it's "ok" - it's all based on individual choice and priorities
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snarfed pauloppenheim: ah i see
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tantek it's not too hard to produce a legacy Atom feed
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snarfed tantek: agreed! i want to make sure we message that right, though
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tantek it's a huge pain to actually consume arbitrary RSS/Atom out there
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tantek hence the recommendation to not bother
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snarfed writing code, yes, but not as a user. as a user it's very easy. on the other hand, as a user it's *very hard* to consume h-feed right now.
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tantek it's less work to ask your friends you want to subscribe to for them to support h-feed on their home page
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tantek snarfed on the indieweb, with selfdogfooding there is no difference between the two people
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snarfed no. the vast majority of the feeds i consume are not indieweb, which means most of them will not convert to h-feed anytime soon
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snarfed we're not an isolated island
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snarfed again, i'm all for switching to h-feed, i just *also* expect to publish and consume rss/atom for a long time, while that migration happens
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tantek snarfed - I used to use Google Reader and also consume RSS and Atom feeds.
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tantek when they shutdown my consumption of RSS and Atom dropped to zero
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tantek I couldn't be bothered to setup/maintain another aggregator
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snarfed sure! i understand. and you're definitely not alone. but i'm not alone either. :P
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tantek I'm not the only one
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tantek who gave up when Google Reader shutdown
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tantek clearly we were not getting that much value out of consuming RSS and Atom
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tantek of course you're not alone either! plenty of people went to other feed readers
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tantek but I'd still bet that the overall # of people consuming RSS/Atom dropped drastically as a result of the shutdown
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tantek hence velocity
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snarfed yup, and again, we're only disagreeing on velocity and degree…but that's still a disagreement
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snarfed when someone like gRegor` asks about rss, i don't want our *only* response to be "rss sux! h-feed 4ever!"
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tantek this sounds like a great topic for Wednesday ;)
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snarfed i'm happy to step up as rss/atom community supporter, you're welcome to point people my way when they ask you
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kylewm pauloppenheim: proprietary meta-crap to microformats converter?
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snarfed tantek: agreed!
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pauloppenheim kylewm: actually, it's not proprietary anymore: http://ogp.me/
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tantek snarfed - is there an RSS/Atom community? I thought any sense of community died as a result of the RSS/Atom wars.
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snarfed no clue
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tantek pauloppenheim - it's still controlled by FB, thus proprietary, but openly licensed
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pauloppenheim ahh
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tantek pauloppenheim: http://indiewebcamp.com/ogp
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pauloppenheim of *course* there's an IWC page for it :)
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pauloppenheim thank you tantek
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tantek snarfed - let's work together to document what we know factually, and the variety of opinions, on the /feed page
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tantek I think it's important in particular to document differences in opinion
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snarfed sure
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tantek makes the wiki page far more useful
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tantek plus then it encourages individuals to make up their own mind, based on both the facts and the spectrum of opinions
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tantek but I hear what you're saying, that the page appears to reflect too narrow a set of opinions currently. let's fix that.
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snarfed …ah, i see. heh. finally parsed your last question. i meant, "i'm happy to step up as rss/atom supporter within the indieweb community" :P
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kbs would it be hitting too many hot buttons to ask if there was a page comparing rdfa with the microformats approach? :-)
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tantek kbs - I think you want #microformats for that ;)
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snarfed kbs: probably not. rss/atom tend to inspire conversation here, but rdf and semantic web mostly get crickets
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tantek kbs - no one* who selfdogfoods actually bothers with rdfa. selfdogfooding is an awesome inefficiency filter. *with the exception of tommorris ;)
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pdurbin crickets? more like hostility :)
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tantek kbs - anyway - there's more frequent (still not much, but more) discussion of rdfa vs microformats etc. in #microformats, so you may have more luck finding folks who want to discuss that there.
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kbs ah, okay - thanks for tips all (and for pointer to #microformats :-)
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tantek btw - a lot of the generic design of microformats2 was inspired by both microdata, and bits of rdfa1.1
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tantek pretty sure I've credited that in every talk I've given on microformats2
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kbs btw, love the indiewebcamp idea [stumbled on this via kevin mark's last TWiG appearance] but don't have much idea behind the history - I'm awash in a sea of format specs, so forgive any naive questions :)
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tantek kbs - I have a lot of sympathy for anyone awash in a sea of format specs - I'm sorry to hear that.
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tantek has been awash in a sea of format specs since 1998 :/
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tantek kbs - and welcome! add yourself to: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people
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pdurbin kbs: I'm here because KevinMarks mentioned tantek and indieweb on TWiG a while ago. I'm glad he did. It's a great community.
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kbs tantek: thanks :-) hope to join one of your Wednesday meetings and learn more
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kbs [pdurbin: yep - ditto.]
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kylewm.com edited /IRC_People (+55) (view diff)
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pauloppenheim has everyone seen this yet? http://sandstorm.io/
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gRegor` Oops, much catch up...
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kbs heh, that's a clever idea. Wouldn't a user still need to be tech-savvy enough to know if a given web-app is actually only connecting to their private server?
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pauloppenheim kbs: i am not positive on the specifics, but it uses containers, so I am not sure that's possible
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kbs pauloppenheim: ah, interesting - thanks. [also looking through https://github.com/kentonv/sandstorm]
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gRegor` Ok, caught up. tantek, snarfed: Yeah, I think it's the general "tone" about RSS/Atom that concerns me. I don't view XML and h-feed as an either-or, and it honestly seems like quite a low priority indieweb area. Like, if you run a WordPress blog, you have a working feed out of the box. Encourage people to add h-feed and other microformats, of course, but the anti-RSS tone just seems unnecessary.
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gRegor` Re "if you don't want to put a feed on your home page - no problem, then you can make it a separate URL", tantek, that violates DRY, which is one of the main criticisms of the XML feeds.
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pdurbin a podcast feed will be xml, of course
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gRegor` I'll write down some ideas on my user page probably
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gRegor` try to come up with some additions for /feed or /h-feed pages.
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KevinMarks Standalone post pages violate DRY if that's your criterion.
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KevinMarks Pdurbin we should fix that too
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gRegor` Hm?
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gRegor` You mean permalink pages?
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dariusdunlap On Wordpress, there is unfortunately still much work to be done. I’ve got the indieweb plugin installed and I’m using an “approved” theme, and yet the h-entry validation on http://indiewebify.me/ still points out several missing elements on https://dunlaps.net/darius
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gRegor` Back a bit later. Burrito time.
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pdurbin KevinMarks: for now, can we have a podcast about the indieweb movement with an xml feed so my podcatcher can catch it?
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KevinMarks We have been doing more talks than podcasts. Which means they end up siloed on YouTube. Hmm.
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pdurbin :(
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pdurbin I would love to be able to subscribe to them in my podcatcher. An audio version would be great.
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KevinMarks That's another fiddly problem, munging YouTube to audio
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pdurbin yeah. youtube-dl and then convert the file to mp3 or ogg
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tantek.com edited /events/2014-03-26-homebrew-website-club (+46) "add indie event and FB POSSE copy" (view diff)
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tantek tries out FB invitations to the POSSE copy of the event to see how Bridgy is handling invites these days.
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tantek :D
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KevinMarks Which podcatcher do you use, pdurbin?
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pdurbin KevinMarks: beyondpod
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KevinMarks Not open source
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@8KKKZ RT @t: going to Homebrew Website Club, 2014-03-26 18:30 @MozSF. indieweb: http://werd.io/2014/homebrew-website-club-1 silo: https://www.facebook.com/events/1409507205977978 (ttk.me t4VD1) (twitter.com/_/status/448302431596589056)
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Loqi [@papanuxw5] "@snipeyhead: WordPress hosting: Don't try this at home! http://t.co/MnDVmqLpFp
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Loqi monoculture problems #indieweb (http://twtr.io/jV5R3qNJjH)
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gregorlove.com created /Talk:feed (+1879) "Tone and message" (view diff)
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basal KevinMarks, I really like AntennaPod, using it right now actually
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KevinMarks I use AntennaPod too
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basal coolio
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tantek !tell gRegor` it's not a DRY violation if you only have one feed.html page which has your latest posts, *instead of* your home page. XML/RDF feeds are typically DRY violations because they *DUPLICATE* what's already on your home page.
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tantek Hey Loqi, do you have problems with gRegor` 's backtick? cc: aaronpk
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Loqi woot!
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tantek how about:
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tantek !tell gRegor it's not a DRY violation if you only have one feed.html page which has your latest posts, *instead of* your home page. XML/RDF feeds are typically DRY violations because they *DUPLICATE* what's already on your home page.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek but we should clarify that
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julien51 tantek snarfed interesting discussion around RSS/Atom. I generally agree that it's a huge pain to consume (both at the developer level and the user level). We (Superfeedr) have been fighting hard to help with that while still preserving 'interoperability'. There are millions of feeds out there and a lot of different ways to consume them. Let's just not throw out the baby with the bath water! For example, one of our recent attempts is
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julien51 https://subtome.com and I would really really love to get your feedback on that.
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julien51 And if anyone is looking for really nice alternative to Google Reader, I'd suggest https://feedbin.me It's an "indie" solution, created by a wonderful dude who charges for his services. It's simple, fast and a generally "great" product. [they're not even a Superfeedr customer if you're wondering about a conflict of interest on my end!]
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julien51 Also, tantek, you know saying "snarfed - is there an RSS/Atom community? I thought any sense of community died as a result of the RSS/Atom wars." is not true. You're clearly substituting your own reality at this point =)
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@tobie According to @robinberjon, Web Intents help to deal with the NASCAR problem: http://indiewebcamp.com/NASCAR_problem #w3cpayment (twitter.com/_/status/448381004471091200)
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@rtaibah Own it, dogfood it, document it, open source it. Build for yourself. Humans and UX over computers & protocols. Agnostic. Have fun! #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/448388692575784960)
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pdurbin KevinMarks: I recently installed AntennaPod. Maybe I'll try to switch over to it from BeyondPod.
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@AxelNennker #w3cpayment wondering whether we will see indiepay something. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/448430919318528001)
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@RossGoodman IndieWebCamp http://www.rossgoodman.com/?p=677 (twitter.com/_/status/448452319068188672)
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brennannovak.com edited /store (-25) "/* Advantages */" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme well I now know a great place for reading material for my train ride in to work... https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/today
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brennannovak.com edited /store (-4) "/* Advantages */" (view diff)
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@brennannovak @AxelNennker interesting, I've started working on the idea of an #IndieStore for the #IndieWeb http://indiewebcamp.com/store (twitter.com/_/status/448461097537114112)
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jonnybarnes does anyone know of a reliable way of linking to twitter profile images? is there something like https://twitter.com/username/profile_image
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ben_thatmustbeme johnnybarnes. I just tried that url with my own handle, and that actually worked
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ben_thatmustbeme using /profile_image that is
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gRegor` !tell tantek I'm not sure I understand. Are you suggesting I replace my home page (currently displays one post) with a page that displays X posts? Because I don't desire to do that.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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gRegor` !tell tantek Yeah, Loqi doesn't like my backtick apparently. Only saw this in my IRC mentions. Same for the ++ point/karma thing.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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ben_thatmustbeme gRegor` did you have a version without the backtick and thats what Loqi is waiting to send to
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Loqi who, me?
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ben_thatmustbeme yes Loqi, you stole the cookie from the cookie jar
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gRegor` Tantek did try sending it to non-backtick after Loqi didn't respond with the backtick. But he tried first with the backtick
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gRegor` The other Gregor is online, so I can't /nick to clear it.
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ben_thatmustbeme Yeah, i saw that, I'm more just curious if Loqi ignores the backtick in certain places or if it just drops lines that have the backtick in it
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gRegor` I think it doesn't respond to it as a valid username.
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ben_thatmustbeme so when he tried to use tell without the backtick (and Loqi responded if i rememeber) it was just queuing up a message for the other nickname
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dariusdunlap Cool, that twitter profile_image trick. Though I notice it’s the small version of the image.
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gRegor` Yeah, it queued up for "Gregor"
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gRegor` !tell invalidnick` something
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gRegor` !tell invalidnick something
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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invalidnick pokes Loqi
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Loqi invalidnick: gRegor` left you a message 23 seconds ago: something
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Loqi goes squish.
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gRegor` :)
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@PodcastFrance J'écoute #onvar 35 de @IndieWebRecords => http://indiewebrecordings.com/podcasts/onvar/Onvar-Episode-35.mp3 (twitter.com/_/status/448473330459639808)
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aaronpk I probably need to adjust the regex for matching nicks
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ben_thatmustbeme dariusdunlap johnnybarnes and ?size=bigger to the end of the URL
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ben_thatmustbeme https://twitter.com/dissolve333/profile_image?size=original
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ben_thatmustbeme options are original, bigger, normal, tiny
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jonnybarnes I'm happy with the default size, I was originally going to link directly to the pbs.twimg.com link brid.gy sends you, but that can go wrong
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ben_thatmustbeme all of them are fixed sizes, except original
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jonnybarnes it appears doing username/profile_image will always give me the latest image, so hopefully no breakages
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gRegor` Re: the feed discussion, I put down some thoughts on the talk page last night. Mostly because I can't always keep up with IRC regularly: http://indiewebcamp.com/Talk:feed cc tantek snarfed
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aaronpk Apparently there are other weird chars that can be in nicks http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5163255/regular-expression-to-match-irc-nickname
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gRegor` So once you get backtick working, I'll switch to one of those. ;)
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ben_thatmustbeme s/tiny/mini/
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ben_thatmustbeme haha
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Loqi rofl
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gRegor` roflcopter
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aaronpk gRegor`: yes thanks for that. Frankly I don't see much point in continuing the rss discussion until there is a productive and practical reason to do so
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gRegor` I'm hoping to be productive. :) And I wanted it to be clear that it's not an either-or for me - not dissing h-feed *or* RSS/Atom. The messaging concerns me a bit is all.
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ben_thatmustbeme the more i look at it, the more I see how much wordpress will not suit my needs
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gRegor` It's really extensible, ben_thatmustbeme, but oh my goodness is the code/API a mess. I rather loathe WordPress.
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ben_thatmustbeme the only advantage to fighting through that mess is being able to share it back to other wordpress users
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gRegor` Yeah
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gRegor` I think when I found out about http://codex.wordpress.org/Function_Reference/wp_magic_quotes, that was my breaking point with WordPress. :)
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gRegor` It ignores the magic_quotes setting and always adds them. Even after magic_quotes support is dropped in PHP 5.4
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ben_thatmustbeme the question really is now, what do I switch to
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ben_thatmustbeme I want something that I can really hack on the index page since I plan to test out passing in some new Get args
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aaronpk maybe idno?
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aaronpk it's also PHP
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ben_thatmustbeme and has a lot pre-rolled in to it, which is very nice
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aaronpk and benwerd hangs out here a lot
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ben_thatmustbeme I'm pretty sure most of the suggestions I would get for IWC projects to work with are people that hang out in here a lot
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aaronpk :)
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aaronpk but seriously, idno is really good
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aaronpk I wouldn't even recommend you work on p3k with me, cause it's nowhere near as ready as idno
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ben_thatmustbeme plus if it cannot start with "git clone https://github.com/...." I'm far less likely to work on it
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ben_thatmustbeme :P
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dariusdunlap just had some problems doing and indieAuth login to the wiki using Google+ — getting “invalid Credentials”. Tried logging out of all google accounts and logging in to only the main one, tried both http and https. (though I didn’t try to fuss with the rel_me settings anywhere.) I think this used to work. Problem on the Google side? App.net indieauth worked fine.
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aaronpk very odd, let me check it out
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aaronpk getting this back from google "Access Not Configured. Please use Google Developers Console to activate the API for your project."
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aaronpk wtf
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aaronpk it used to work...
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ben_thatmustbeme i logged in with G+ just yesterday fine
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dunlaps.net edited /WordPress (+73) "/* IndieAuth */ - added a link to https://indieauth.com/setup" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme hmm, is it worth while for me to create a new project instead since my host doesn't have mongoDB
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dariusdunlap aaronpk - I’m working on related stuff this morning, so if you need any testing, just holler.
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk what language is p3k? I'm not really finding anything I like thus far, and if I don't find something it will probably mean ripping apart opencart again to use their basic MVC setup
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aaronpk it's PHP
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ben_thatmustbeme I'd be up for working with it, though I know you aren't sharing the code atm
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aaronpk it's mostly just not in a state that can really be shared, although i'm making progress on that front
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ben_thatmustbeme you haven't seem my co-worker's code
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gRegor` Ben, if you're looking at making your own, check out the processwire.com PHP framework. I've been quite impressed with it.
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gRegor` In the coming years I will probably migrate my site to it.
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aaronpk this is what I've used for PHP projects http://aaron.pk/a4P01
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aaronpk p3k does not use that stack tho, cause I started p3k before I found those components
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: also benwerd is going to be moving idno away from mongodb
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ben_thatmustbeme I'll definitely have to check it out when he does
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ben_thatmustbeme gRegor` thanks for the link. I like the structure of it. I think I may work with that
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aaronpk I have to say, if idno had used mysql or postgres I would have hopped on board and helped ben build it instead of making p3k
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kylewm aaronpk: still true that p3k is git-backed -- no traditional database?
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kylewm is it^
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aaronpk yes, although I'm about to add a database for caching and querying
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aaronpk but the data store will still be on disk
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aaronpk i probably won't even load the file contents into the DB, just use it as a way to find filenames to read from
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ben_thatmustbeme huh, interesting approach. Yeah, unless you are doing text searching there is no reason to put in the contents. That must make it nice and fast too.
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kylewm very cool, does it actually use the git metadata at all, or is that just a mechanism for storing flat files of everything?
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aaronpk I want to be able to query by tags, post types, etc, and maintaining flat-file indexes of those is getting hard, so that's the reason for moving the metadata into the DB
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aaronpk just using git as version control and a way to sync the files between multiple computers I develop on
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aaronpk also I am stumped with this google auth error
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aaronpk this app was working at one point, and now I've gone and made new API keys and even made a new app, and it's still giving me that error
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Loqi tantek: gRegor` left you a message 1 hour, 45 minutes ago: I'm not sure I understand. Are you suggesting I replace my home page (currently displays one post) with a page that displays X posts? Because I don't desire to do that.
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Loqi tantek: gRegor` left you a message 1 hour, 44 minutes ago: Yeah, Loqi doesn't like my backtick apparently. Only saw this in my IRC mentions. Same for the ++ point/karma thing.
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tantek gRegor`: no I'm not suggesting you change your home page. My point is that if your home page DOES NOT display X posts, then having a separate "posts.html" page that DOES display X posts is NOT a DRY violation.
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tantek (because it's not duplicating functionality)
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gRegor` Why isn't it? The only purpose of that separate posts.html would be for feed readers (which is what my XML feeds do already).
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gRegor` It's duplicating posts.
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tantek it's the XML feeds that are duplicating posts
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gRegor` Yes, I know that
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gRegor` And so would the posts.html
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aaronpk gRegor`: what if I as a person wanted to see your whole list of posts and am not using a feed reader?
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gRegor` I have an /archives page
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tantek gRegor`: a posts.html is more human friendly than any posts.xml
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aaronpk and I can read the full text of all your posts on the /archives page?
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gRegor` No
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gRegor` Just titles
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tantek right, so that's not human friendly
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tantek preferring XML is preferring machines over humans
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gRegor` Um
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aaronpk so I have to click through to each article to read it?
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gRegor` If you're browsing the archives page, yes. If you go to the home page, you see the latest post. Each post has links to previous and next.
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aaronpk so it sounds like you have already published all the information and links needed for me as a person or myself using a feed reader to find all your content
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gRegor` If you only want headlines, sure.
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aaronpk but you just said I can read the full articles if I click on the links on your archives page
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tantek sounds like a lot of work for the (human) reader
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gRegor` Yes, which would . . . not be in the feed reader.
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aaronpk but the feed reader can pre-fetch the content if it really wanted to
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aaronpk I guess my question is why are you making more work for yourself, you've already made your content and the links to it all available for both human and machine consumers
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gRegor` I'm not sure why anyone assumes I'm "making more work" for myself.
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aaronpk you seem to think you need to publish an rss/atom feed
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bret aaronpk: any talk of a HWC this week?
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tantek bret - indiewebcamp.com/events :P
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aaronpk bret: yep! I don't know if dietrich confirmed mozpdx tho
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gRegor` Yes, so that if someone who's not in the IWC niche wants to subscribe to my blog...
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gRegor` Same as you and tantek publish RSS/Atom, right?
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aaronpk i'm removing mine as soon as I accidentally break it :)
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aaronpk it sounds like having an h-feed to atom bridge would be useful
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gRegor` It's really not about preference of one over the other for me. Here is what I'm saying:
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tantek aaronpk - it could be yeah
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tantek certainly I'd be happy offloading that bandwidth to some proxy
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aaronpk I would use it instantly
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bret aaronpk: you interested in publishing an atom/rss feed based off a list of h-entries? been thinking abbout how to put that together
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aaronpk and then I can focus on making the h-feed better
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tantek bret - I think sandeepshetty already built it
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bret oh eyah, totally forgot! ;/
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aaronpk http://h-reader.com but it's down
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aaronpk https://github.com/sandeepshetty/h-reader
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bret welp
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bret again, lots of ways to go about this
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snarfed bret, aaronpk: funny, i was thinking of building the same thing just this morning
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bret a little reluctant to do a public gateway, sounds like a pain to maintain
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tantek a proxy that did both h-feed -> Atom and Atom/RSS/RDF -> h-feed would be useful
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tantek for legacy consumers, and indieweb readers, respectively
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snarfed challenge accepted
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aaronpk snarfed: let's talk, I have a few ideas about how to put it together
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tantek oh snap
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gRegor` DRY is one of the best arguments against XML. Yet a shortcoming of h-feed (with my current site setup) is that I would need to set up a separate HTML page, *duplicating* my RSS/Atom feed in HTML form. So the DRY argument loses its power there. Sure, if I dropped the RSS/Atom feed and just used an h-feed, that would make sense.
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snarfed aaronpk: sure! sounds good
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gRegor` So I'm all for *both* currently, and actively working towards better h-feed support.
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tantek gRegor`: yes - I agree with that analysis and conclusion.
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bret im just going to do to a feed from my main page
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snarfed gRegor`, tantek: fuck yeah. thank you thank you thank you. that consensus deserves a cheer (and f-bomb) in my book
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bret its pretty easy to put together a custom h-entry to atom feed in a few days
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dietrich aaronpk: we is confirmed
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gRegor` And the language of the /feed page makes it sound like RSS/Atom should be dropped *today*, meanwhile hardly any IWCers are actually doing that.
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dietrich bret: ^
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tantek dietrich++
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Loqi dietrich has 2 karma
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bret dietrich++
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gRegor` haha, snarfed :)
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Loqi dietrich has 3 karma
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aaronpk dietrich: YAY thx!
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Loqi giggles
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snarfed gRegor`: definitely. we need to update /feed, right now it kind of reflects a minority opinion. that's on my todo list, but feel free to jump in ahead of me!
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tantek gRegor`: yes, we should update the page to reflect both the current situ and trends more accurately. I think snarfed and I will be banging that out tomorrow night.
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kylewm gRegor`: snarfed: the /feed page has been toned down quite a bit, it's still problematic?
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tantek It feels like the kind of thing that will work better in-person interactively.
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gRegor` Cool, cool. Thanks for the discussion. Hope I wasn't too frustrating. :)
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tantek kylewm - not so much problematic, as could be better :)
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snarfed kylewm: oh maybe not. i've tried as hard as i could to avoid and ignore the debate altogether. (but recently failed :P)
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snarfed tantek: definitely
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tantek gRegor`: it's all good. sometimes harder to discuss contrasting approaches/opinions in text.
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snarfed bret, aaronpk: agreed, h-feed to rss/atom and back seems pretty straightforward. not even sure there are any meaningful design decisions to be made, just simple fetch-on-demand and transformation. at least, that's the naive first pass, which is all i'd expect to do.
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kylewm cool -- I did understand how someone could find it a little inflammatory a week ago, but not anymore thanks to barnaby's edits. looking forward to reading new versions :)
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snarfed aaronpk: out of curiosity, were you thinking something more sophisticated?
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kylewm snarfed: is your latests blog -> tweet evidence that bridgy publish supports picture posts now?
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bret snarfed: another approach, send a webmention/webhook to the gateway on updates?
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tantek snarfed, per Postel's law - does it make sense to produce anything other than the strictest/most valid Atom from h-feed? And then consume *any* Atom/RDF/RSS and produce the strictest h-feed?
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snarfed bret: maybe! but that implies the gateway has some state it would need to update. i'd just as soon avoid that.
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snarfed tantek: sure! of course
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tantek bret - sounds like PuSH-lite ;)
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snarfed tantek: first step is something working, then flexibility and validation
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tantek but yes - agreed
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tantek ideally the proxy shouldn't be polling our h-feeds
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tantek it's about time we simplified PuSH and made it work for native h-feeds
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gRegor` I didn't compare to its recent history. I didn't find /feed inflammatory in its current state, just a bit of concern about the tone/message. I commented last night on the talk page, which I just mostly recapped here in IRC. :)
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snarfed yeah. honestly, personally i would (will) probably only build the fetch-on-demand, nothing more
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tantek snarfed - no caching?
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snarfed tantek: sure, maybe, if/when i need it
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snarfed app engine free quota goes a long way
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snarfed :P
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aaronpk snarfed: I'd want it to include some useful debugging/error messages, like what I did with ownyourgram
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snarfed aaronpk: ah, got it
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aaronpk also there are multiple cases to handle, like when the h-feed doesn't actually contain article content, it could go fetc hthe articles
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tantek snarfed - I meant caching on the fetch side, you know, to be nicer to our indie sites ;)
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bret ohh fancy
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aaronpk and would be great if it were PuSH-enabled
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snarfed fortunately, it's a small enough project that we could build two or more and compare, and not waste too much effort
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tantek aaronpk - do you have a summary of how PuSH works with h-feed?
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aaronpk pretty much that's just PuSH
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aaronpk since they expanded it to include not just XML feeds
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snarfed kylewm: sadly no, those were manual. on my list though! https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/85 . feel free to "vote"
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snarfed tantek, aaronpk: right. i'm all for PuSH, but not sure whether/how a translator would need to do anything extra for it
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/rsvp/facebook/11500459/471598402969924/11500459 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-03-26-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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bret Andy Sylvester wants to help out too. He is pretty enthusiastic about the FLOSS reader and the IRC feed
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aaronpk wow that was fast
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tantek aaronpk - then perhaps we need a simple "How to" for this on http://indiewebcamp.com/PubSubHubbub
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bret I should add a link to my tutoria
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bret l
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aaronpk I am happy to write that when I get to that
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tantek as in "How to" do h-feed plus PuSH
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Loqi I agree
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tantek because I don't know of anyone that actually does it
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aaronpk but I don't yet send PuSH notifications
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snarfed tantek: re caching, sure. if you already serve rss/atom, though, this wouldn't increase your load much, since the number of users of h-feed readers is approximately…2? 3? :P
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tantek heck right now I'm the only one that claims to do PuSH on my indie web site which can't be right (there must be others) http://indiewebcamp.com/PubSubHubbub#IndieWeb_Examples
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aaronpk I theoretically do PuSH for my atom feed
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bret aww crap that PubSubHubbub page needs work
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tantek (i.e. please add yourself if you do any PuSH from your site)
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aaronpk one of the issues is I don't really know if anything is consuming it
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kylewm tantek: theoretically me too (for atom feeds)
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bret aaronpk: would not accepting 3rd party cookies block the indieauth session saving?
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aaronpk probably yeah
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aaronpk wait what do you mean 3rd party
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aaronpk you definitely need the indiewebcamp.com cookie but that should be it
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aaronpk indieauth doesn't even use cookies
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kylewm.com edited /PubSubHubbub (+78) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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bret aaronpk: that option in safari
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bret that blocks some advert cookies
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aaronpk not familiar with it
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aaronparecki.com edited /events/2014-03-26-homebrew-website-club (+48) "add URLs for portland" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /events/2014-03-26-homebrew-website-club (+2) "/* URLs */ u-syndication" (view diff)
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bret.io edited /PubSubHubbub (+137) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ Added my push tutorial" (view diff)
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snarfed on an unrelated note, bridgy publish docs are up: https://www.brid.gy/about#publish . feedback is welcome!
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/rsvp/facebook/31600719/471598402969924/31600719 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-03-26-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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barnabywalters good afternoon #indiewebcamp
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aaronpk hello barnabywalters!
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barnabywalters saw discussion of h-feed/h-entry to ATOM converter in the logs
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barnabywalters perhaps I have not shouted loudly enough about http://waterpigs.co.uk/services/microformats-to-atom/
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barnabywalters which I have been using for all my feeds for months now without a hitch
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barnabywalters e.g. http://waterpigs.co.uk/services/microformats-to-atom/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwaterpigs.co.uk%2F on my homepage
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tantek hello barnabywalters!
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aaronpk well then
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tantek ooh
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tantek I should compare the output of your converter to my own PHP generated Atom and see what the diffs are
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barnabywalters added to todo list: release code for that as tiny package people can throw on their own sites
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tantek (queue Loqi yes-man)
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Loqi yea
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tantek :D
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barnabywalters Loqi, you’re getting predictable!
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barnabywalters my VPS gets about 1TB of bandwidth so feel free to use it, within reason :)
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barnabywalters s/bandwidth/monthly bandwidth
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Loqi barnabywalters meant to say: my VPS gets about 1TB of monthly bandwidth so feel free to use it, within reason :)
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tantek barnabywalters - any thoughts of supporting PuSH+h-feed?
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barnabywalters tantek: recently I’ve been trying to get PuSH 0.4 to work with h-feed
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barnabywalters as my reader and anti-spam projects both need to be able to subscribe to things
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barnabywalters no success so far but that’s a result of the feed reader trying to also be a programming environment. I think I need to focus it on one purpose and optimise it for that rather than trying to over generalsie
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barnabywalters generalise
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barnabywalters where “being a programming language” is about as general as you can get in this case :)
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barnabywalters but current working consensus from julien is: subscribe to a HTML page, get pings when it changes, pings contain the content of the HTML page which you then re-parse
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barnabywalters which prevents the thundering herd problem
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tantek barnabywalters - can you write that up in a "How to" section on /PubSubHubbub ?
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aaronpk barnabywalters: this is different from the actual PuSH spec?
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tantek I'm still confused about exactly what to setup where and why, and what URL / webhook to call or register where.
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tantek aaronpk - can you point to where in the "new" PuSH spec it says how to do this?
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aaronpk tantek: and more importantly, how do you know it's working and when it breaks? cause right now I have no idea if my PuSH thing is working
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barnabywalters aaronpk: not really, although superfeedr has some unique features which make it easier, and reduce noise
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tantek I gave up
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tantek barnabywalters - right, I think the spec is underspecified on this
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barnabywalters yeah I’ll add a how-to section once my current “real” work-work task is done
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snarfed barnabywalters: thanks for pointing us to your converter? out of curiosity, does it also do the other direction, ie ss/atom to h-feed?
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snarfed that'd be another great way to help early adopters use h-feed readers more
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tantek aaronpk - presumably barnabywalters's converter could keep track of "last updated" for the feed and show that time
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tantek and you'd know it was working if that time reflected when your server last sent a PuSH notification
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barnabywalters snarfed: no, although that’s on my agenda too
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snarfed great!
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barnabywalters with existing mature tools for ATOM parsing and normalising it should be trivial to go the other way
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snarfed definitely
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snarfed my one remaining contribution is to propose a name for these converters
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snarfed feedzombie
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barnabywalters snarfed: perfect!
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snarfed as in, feeds are dead, and yet they're still alive :P
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tantek you could call it "feedz" for short ;)
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barnabywalters tantek: MY EYES
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barnabywalters THEY BURN
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tantek it could be our inside joke, everytime we're saying "feeds" we're actually saying "feedz"
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barnabywalters it’s compuslory to say “yo” after saying “feedz”
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barnabywalters that’s rule 1
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tantek oh damn there's a .dz ccTLD
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aaronpk oh no
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barnabywalters rule 2: it’s compulsory to assume that whenever anyone says “feeds” they’re saying “feedz”
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tantek snarfed, barnabywalters - which of you is going to grab that first? ;)
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barnabywalters and therefore a “yo” must be provided
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barnabywalters tantek: I don’t buy domains :)
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tantek sure sure, we all "rent" domains :P
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barnabywalters my granola addication burns my wallet enough already
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snarfed i'll happily buy and donate it if barnaby adminsters it
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barnabywalters snarfed: deal!
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snarfed …and i suspect he'll politely decline
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snarfed oh wow! ok. done!
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tantek now we just need a zombie artist
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snarfed name your registrar of choice, barnaby
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snarfed (and login creds :P)
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tantek for logos / graphics ;)
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barnabywalters snarfed: ADMIN/1234 of course
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snarfed or just go ahead and i'll reimburse you via rel-payment
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aaronpk what! that's the same password I have....
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snarfed nm that's much better
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snarfed "drop the 4. just 123. it's cleaner."
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tantek snarfed: http://indiewebcamp.com/payment :)
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bret there is bound to be a sucessful startup in a server hosting company that could provide an app store experience for server software
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ben_thatmustbeme gah, i'm still bouncing back and forth between hacking wordpress, and hacking up something new
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barnabywalters bret: do you (or anyone you know) have experience with control panel software or 1-click install services which do similar things?
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barnabywalters they might be worth documenting on /store
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bret other than finding cPannel anoying, not really
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bret ben_thatmustbeme: do what sounds more fun!
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barnabywalters so it looks like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CPanel and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Softaculous are the big ones
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barnabywalters IIRC eschnou also work(s/ed) on a service which does similar 1-click installs
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ben_thatmustbeme bret: sadly they both sound depressing, I don't want to start from scratch to get far enough to the point of things I want to work on, but I also don't want to try working with the mess that is WP
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barnabywalters ben_thatmustbeme: presumably someone’s already suggested looking at idno as a base to build off?
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barnabywalters switching locations, bbiab
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snarfed ben_thatmustbeme: what problems are you having with wp?
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ben_thatmustbeme yes, I like the look of the code, but alas, sql only host and while I could dev locally, it would not be fun to not be able to launch on the hosting i've prepayed for
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ben_thatmustbeme snarfed, mostly I was looking to hack it pretty heavily and wp doesn't always work the intuitive way for me. I'm leaning toward just sticking with WP for now
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snarfed got it. good luck! plenty of both wp and non-wp users here to support either path
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ben_thatmustbeme I suppose the easiest for me is a framework I've already used and could get it together fast, but I wouldn't really be learning as much
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snarfed eh, you'd still learn plenty about indieweb. and honestly, poking at both in parallel isn't so bad! you get something working fast, and you also get to try building from scratch.
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ben_thatmustbeme I think i'm going to just go the MVC route i'm used to. It will take me through a lot more of learning the indie web standards, and thats really what i'm interested in
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ben_thatmustbeme i may be back in a few hours belaboring the decision again
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@kyle_wm https://twitter.com/ashleymayer https://twitter.com/KevinMarks ha! what would the #indieweb one be? For me "testing something...... http://kylewm.com/reply/2014/03/25/1 (twitter.com/_/status/448535448759959552)
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@kyle_wm @ashleymayer @KevinMarks ha! what would the #indieweb one be? For me "testing something... please disregard" :) (http://kylewm.com/reply/2014/03/25/1) (twitter.com/_/status/448537206425006080)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /PuSH (-59) "no need for an entire page" (view diff)
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tantek fair enough
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cweiske tantek, are you still working on "show webmention results" that's listed on http://indiewebcamp.com/falcon#send_webmentions_for_posted_links ?
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cweiske or did you implement that already?
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tantek cweiske, yeah, but secondary to the personal comms stuff.
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tantek and events
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tantek so much new ground to break :)
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tantek the events support will likely force the implementation of webmentions etc. - because RSVPs to real world events are far more interesting to me than comments.
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tantek (personal preference only - obviously not reflective of anyone else's priorities)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /PubSubHubbub (+547) "/* Testing */ moved to How To section, stubbed subscription how to with link to superfeedr docs" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /PubSubHubbub (+5) "/* Arbitrary Content */ corrected spec link to canonical" (view diff)
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tantek snarfed, what do you think happened here? http://dangillmor.com/2014/03/23/why-i-dont-force-my-students-to-buy-an-expensive-textbook/comment-page-2/#comment-29281?
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tantek (note the lack of icon, name, and dangling "Article on" on that comment)
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tantek anyone here do custom CSS for specific blog posts, and if so, what technique(s) do you use?
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tantek I'm currently using 'style' attributes on per-post custom CSS, which is perhaps suboptimal but I'm not sure where else to start for a more "general" solution (without getting bogged down in template-reinvention-hell, that's a project for later)
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KartikPrabhu tantek: I do custom css for some posts but it is through templates
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snarfed tantek: sigh. that happens when the semantic-linkbacks plugin isn't installed, or i guess if it chokes for some reason
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snarfed looking more
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snarfed ah, no, it's because i sometimes hit the 10k queries/day G+ api limit, and then i can't translate the content to mf2 because i can't fetch it
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snarfed whee!
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snarfed i've been ratcheting down the G+ poll interval for exactly that reason. it's at 30m now. maybe i need to drop it more. :/
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snarfed tantek: re custom css, yes, i've done both inline styles and custom class names that i style in a .css file. both are straightforward. not sure it needs any more magic or special techniques beyond those.
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snarfed example: https://snarfed.org/2012-12-31_atv_accident . the image caption is custom css.
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tantek snarfed, re: "it's because i sometimes hit the 10k queries/day G+ api limit," - perhaps don't send empty interaction webmentions then? So we don't get empty interactions on Bridgy consumers.
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snarfed tantek: i definitely understand the motivation. it's not quite that easy, since i don't currently track the number of g+ calls i've made, and i don't think there's a way to ask, but i'll think about it.
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snarfed the ideal answer is https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/15 . i'll bump up its priority
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KartikPrabhu here is my extreme example of custom css: http://kartikprabhu.com/article/cybernetic :)
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KartikPrabhu firefox really keeps you on your toes wrt to CSS values!
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tantek reads snarfed's post
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek, whats wrong with having a list of custom css mods, then its just a scoped style tag
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tantek yikes! well I'm convinced to not go ATVing any time soon. Glad you're ok from all that snarfed!
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ben_thatmustbeme nevermind, just read up to current
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snarfed tantek: aww thanks!
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: I'm not quite yet a fan of using scoped style though I have high hopes it will help solve this use case.
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KartikPrabhu scoped styles created more problems i feel. I have setup my templates to look for a CSS file with the same title as the article and insert a <link> if it exists
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pauloppenheim snarfed: holy shit, that atv story involves a lot of luck, glad you survived
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ben_thatmustbeme kartikPrabhu, do you just make a full copy if you want to re-use a custom style then?
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snarfed pauloppenheim: totally. thanks!
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tantek KartikPrabhu: whoa cybernetic! :)
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KartikPrabhu ben_thatmustbeme: I use a CSS preprocessor mostly so small common styles as in separate resuable files. I've not needed to reuse huge amounts of custom styles.
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KartikPrabhu tantek
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KartikPrabhu :D
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ben_thatmustbeme I'm having to force myself to remove proper markup from my new site... just to force myself to learn the hard way to insert the correct tags. I shouldn't have started with a template, I feel like i'm cheating.
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aaronparecki.com edited /PubSubHubbub (+103) "add myself" (view diff)
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tantek snarfed, different from issue 15 - if there is no info for the activity, then perhaps don't post it? i.e. if an error is returned.
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snarfed tantek: well, sending a webmention is a separate request from serving the source URL, and the architecture is pretty stateless. i don't currently fetch from G+ when i send the webmention, so i don't actually know whether the later fetch will succeed or not
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tantek stateless is fine - perhaps don't send the webmention if the fields are null?
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aaronpk wow superfeedr is the only hub that supports PusH 0.4?
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snarfed tantek: sorry, i'm probably not being clear. during a poll, i fetch the post and its comments and likes, store new ones, and enqueue tasks to send webmentions for them. later, independently, i try to send those webmentions. (no silo api calls there.) later, independently, the recipient asks me for the mf2 translations, which i use silo api calls for. that last part is the one that failed in this case. when that happens, with this archite
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snarfed …which brings me back to the ideal answer, serve the mf2 from my stored data instead of silo api calls. doable, but a bit harder than it sounds, due to implementation details.
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tantek oh ok
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bret push is surprisingly unknown to many people
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tantek bret - because there aren't enough consumers to really make it worthwhile :/
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tantek it's why I dropped it from indiemark
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tantek we couldn't point to tangible benefits for the site owner
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bret at osf23c half the people didnt know about it and kept repeating 'we need pubsubthingy'
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aaronpk until there are more readers, there will be little reason to support PuSH
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: Would be awesome if you could confirm that the new rel parsing works as expected
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tantek what's osf23c?
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aaronpk osfw3c?
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tantek aaronpk, agreed, until there are more indie readers that consume PuSH
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aaronpk right
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KartikPrabhu hey gRegor` are we doing the HWC-Chicago?
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tantek superfeedr is the only big consumer right now, and it's not clear how it benefits the indie web site owner
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tantek !!!
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aaronpk so I suspect there will be little progress on PuSH until there is more progress made on readers
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aaronpk the main problem with PuSH from the publisher's side is that it's really hard to tell if it's actually working
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aaronpk if there's a bunch of people who are reading your realtime feed, then you may hear quicker when it breaks
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aaronpk but as most of us here have noticed, we don't even know if our own push feeds are working
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bret tantek: aaronpk ayah osfw3c sorry
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: just pushed a commit to mf2py so that rels are parsed better. Might be of use to you
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: woot, thanks!
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tantek bret, there was a lot of "we need XYZ" by people that don't actually build nor deploy anything.
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tantek without the litmus test harsh filter of selfdogfooding, people will ask for whatever marketing messages they are convinced by
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KartikPrabhu selfdogfood++
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Loqi selfdogfood has 1 karma
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tantek selfdogfood++
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Loqi selfdogfood has 2 karma
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snarfed selfdogfood++
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Loqi too much karma!
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gRegor` KartikPrabhu: Sure, but I can't do it this week. Maybe shoot for the next one on April 9th?
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KartikPrabhu that is probably the best principle here that should be more widely adopted
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snarfed whoa, loqi has karma flood protection
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Loqi :)
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snarfed aaronpk++
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gRegor` Presuming we're staying in sync with the other HWCmeetings
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KartikPrabhu gRegor`: April 9 is much better. I'll be done with a conference presentation that week and will have more time :)
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aaronpk heh, loqi has lots of little safeguards like that which make him particularly immune to trolling in public IRC channels
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gRegor` Sounds good. I'll put a stub on the wiki for us.
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KartikPrabhu neat! is there a good place to do this?
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gRegor` Since it will likely just be the two of us this time, we can pick a convenient coffee shop.
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gRegor` I'm in North Center and work from home, so I'm pretty flexible. I could meet somewhere downtown if that works best.
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cweiske I've got a first version of linkback result visualisation running on stapibas
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cweiske http://fotostore.cweiske.de/screenshots/2014-03-25%20stapibas%20linkback%20info.png
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cweiske kylewm, aaronpk
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cweiske tahnok,
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cweiske tantek,
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gRegor` Hehe
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KartikPrabhu gRegor`: since I'm on the south-side maybe downtown is the best bet
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tantek cweiske - whoa - is that occuring on hover?
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aaronpk cweiske: whoa that's neat!
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cweiske yes
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tantek that's. amazing.
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cweiske it's a bookmarklet that loads linkback stats from the server via javascript
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cweiske adds green/red/grey/yellow icons after the links
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aaronpk whoa
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aaronpk neat
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cweiske and gives you info via hover
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aaronpk that is not at all like how I imagined doing it, but that is awesome!
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kbs random question - has any 'de-facto format' to embed pgp keys in a h-card (or (hcard I guess) taken root? Right now it seems a bit all over the place.
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aaronpk kbs: have you seen http://indiewebcamp.com/pgp ?
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kbs ah, no - thank you for the pointer
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gRegor` I don't see a dedicated wiki page for Homebrew Website Club, just individual events. Worth adding one?
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tantek kbs - research on that is here: http://microformats.org/wiki/key-examples#Real-World_Examples
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gRegor` I was going to point people to it to explain what it is and maybe get interest.
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aaronpk gRegor`: we've just been using /events or the latest event page when linking people to it
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kbs aaronpk and tantek - perfect, thanks much
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tantek gRegor`: feel free to create one - so far we've been using the newsletter vol 1 as an explanation
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cweiske aaronpk, I once talked to you about accepting webmention via "202 accepted" if they get processed asynchronously, and wished there was a way I would get notified about the processing result
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tantek webhook?
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tantek (as part of the 202 return)
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cweiske the UI I have now is a way to actually display that result, and the waiting phase
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aaronpk I was thinking about that
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tantek the the receiver of the 202 return could call the webhook to register a callback for completion
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aaronpk the newest webmention doc actually says the response should return a URL that has information about the status
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aaronpk we should probably use PuSH for this...
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Loqi yea!
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cweiske oh, I didn't read the webmention spec update
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aaronpk it's only vaguely agreed upon
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aaronpk actually I don't like the way it currently is worded
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aaronpk it should really return a Link header rather than a URL in the http body
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aaronpk something like Link: <http://example.com/webmention/1000>
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aaronpk rel="webmention_status"
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KartikPrabhu tantek: re custom styles: do you think custom styles and scripts for a post should be syndicate-able, i.e. put inside the h-entry so others can consume it if they want?
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tantek KartikPrabhu - not sure. Going to need more indie reader experience to answer that.
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KartikPrabhu hmm sure
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aaronpk my instinct is no, but it will be determined by the reader software in the wild
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KartikPrabhu yeah. fair enough. wait for problem before solving it :)
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kbs aaronpk: the rel="pgpkey" approach seems unrelated to the hcard/key microformat approach - is that about right?
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tantek semi
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tantek kbs - what's strange is rel="key" makes more sense
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tantek because the specific content-type of the key should come from HTTP
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tantek or in an advisory role, from the "type" attribute of <a>
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tantek kbs - it depends on whether you include the ASCII hardened key inline in your h-card or if you keep that in a separate file
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tantek that's a publishing choice you make independently of any card format
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kbs Sounds logical enough - so is the thinking that the hcard class="key" be used for inline keys, and the generic <a rel="key" be used for links to keys?
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tantek kbs - that seems to be the pair of patterns emerging
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tantek though for h-card, class="p-key" for the inline data
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tantek you could do both rel="key" class="u-key" on a URL to a key
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tantek that might work too
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kbs *nod* gotcha - thanks much for the clarifications :-)
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tantek the assumption being that any consumer of that key, if it noticed it was a URL, it would go fetch it for the actual key bits
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@tabatkins Aligns with the #indieweb ideals really well, I think. http://sandstorm.io/ (twitter.com/_/status/448570090036813824)
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@ShaneHudson RT @tabatkins: Aligns with the #indieweb ideals really well, I think. http://sandstorm.io/ (twitter.com/_/status/448570722626334720)
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gregorlove.com created /Homebrew_Website_Club (+1212) "Dedicated HWC page" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu gregor` nicely done
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@gRegorLove Working on the first Chicago Homebrew Website Club meeting for April 9th. http://indiewebcamp.com/Homebrew_Website_Club Let me know if you're interested. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/448571486962323456)
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tantek.com edited /Homebrew_Website_Club (+146) "/* Meetings */ add more organizers, link events" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Homebrew_Website_Club (+0) "see also at bottom" (view diff)
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aaronpk this seems like a good use of mediawiki categories
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tantek gregorlove - awesome!
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gRegor` woot!
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Loqi :D
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@nicktabick RT @gRegorLove: Working on the first Chicago Homebrew Website Club meeting for April 9th. http://indiewebcamp.com/Homebrew_Website_Club Let me know if you're inte… (twitter.com/_/status/448572375726960640)
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tantek does anyone here have the AIM app installed on their iPhone/iPod/iPad or Android?
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cweiske AIM. I used that in the nineties
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gRegor` Hehe
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gRegor` I don't have the apps, but I am connected.
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gRegor` I actually got set up using bitlbee today so I can use AIM via IRC.
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aaronpk I was looking at bitlbee so I can hipchat through IRC
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gRegor` I'm using their server instead of my own install. So far it's worked fine. My AIM chat traffic is really low though. :)
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cweiske hipchat is xmpp
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aaronpk yes
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gRegor` bitlbee supports xmpp
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aaronpk that's why that works
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tantek but does it support the aim: URL scheme?
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tantek so you can click/tap aim: links and have it work?
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tantek so yeah, specifically, on your iPhone/iPod/iPad or Android?
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kartikprabhu.com uploaded /File:silo-urls.jpg "why you shouldn't share silo-short-urls!"
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KartikPrabhu http://indiewebcamp.com/File:silo-urls.jpg
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@ashleybenigno What is the IndieWeb? http://indiewebcamp.com/ + https://www.youtube.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/448574048856199168)
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@jcDesig Sounds cool but prolly never be heard of again: RT @tabatkins: Aligns with the #indieweb ideals really well, I think. http://sandstorm.io/ (twitter.com/_/status/448574523760455680)
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tantek whoa - feedly outage image
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/gRegorLove/448571486962323456/961862718 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/Homebrew_Website_Club (webmention)
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tantek what is feedly?
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/gRegorLove/448571486962323456/11628 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/Homebrew_Website_Club (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/gRegorLove/448571486962323456/448572375726960640 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/Homebrew_Website_Club (webmention)
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tantek oh hey we have a page
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tantek :)
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KartikPrabhu tantek: feedly is a feed reader
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@kartik_prabhu Why you shouldn't share silo urls: http://kartikprabhu.com/static/images/silo-urls.jpg #indieweb (http://kartikprabhu.com/notes/silo-urls) (twitter.com/_/status/448575516912541696)
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tantek.com moved /File:silo-urls.jpg to /File:feedly-cloud-down-2014-03-25.jpg
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tantek.com edited /feedly (+188) "add another down message" (view diff)
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tantek buf if anyone here thinks Sandstorm is worthy of documenting, feel free to start /Sandstorm stub article!
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bnvk not sure if it is or not yet, seems like a knowledgeable ex-googler, I'm just interested in connecting as he might like what we are doing
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aaronpk being an ex-googler is becoming less and less impressive, sorry
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tantek bnvk - go forth!
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tantek aaronpk - ex-googler dilution?
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aaronpk yeah
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bnvk ?
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aaronpk seems like everyone's an ex-googler these days
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tantek ex-googler is the new ex-microsofty?
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bnvk hehe
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cweiske "I declined google's offer" is the next ex-googler
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tantek.com edited /Facebook (+281) "criticism Hyperlink Fear Interstitial" (view diff)
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barnabywalters cweiske++
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Loqi cweiske has 3 karma
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cweiske .. I'm a next ex-googler :)
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KartikPrabhu tantek: any good place on the wiki that documents silo url redirect fails?
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cweiske you can try a live-demo of the linkback status popups: visit http://cweiske.de/stapibas/ and add the bookmarklet to your bookmarks. then visit http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/bdrem.htm and activate the bookmarklet.
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tantek KartikPrabhu: maybe on /silos ?
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kylewm cweiske: I get a blank page with "[object HTMLScriptElement]" ... should it work on Firefox?
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cweiske err. only tried it with chromium
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kylewm cweiske: maybe I did something weird with the bookmark... it works if I paste the script into the console
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kylewm that's really awesome
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cweiske I just tried it here with Firefox, and it is broken, too
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kylewm very cool idea showing the status inline with the links
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tantek.com edited /silo (+662) "re-order a bit add Linkwrapping section" (view diff)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: here you go: http://indiewebcamp.com/silo#Linkwrapping
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cweiske ah. it works in firefox when adding a ;void(0)
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cweiske at then end
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tantek alright, sounds like I'm asking in the wrong crowd for mobile AIM usage ;)
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tantek bret - you installed it though right?
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cweiske ok, firefox works now - kylewm could you try by re-creating the bookmarklet in firefox?
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cweiske s/re-creating/re-adding/
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Loqi cweiske meant to say: ok, firefox works now - kylewm could you try by re-adding the bookmarklet in firefox?
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kylewm cweiske: confirmed, it works now
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cweiske cool. mission accomplished for today
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aaronpk congrats cweiske, that's awesome
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tantek nicely done!
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cweiske.de edited /projects (-25) "/* stapibas */ link to stapibas page" (view diff)
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cweiske.de uploaded /File:stapibas_linkback_info.png "screenshot of a [stapibas] linkback info popup"
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cweiske.de edited /File:stapibas_linkback_info.png (+2) (view diff)
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kartikprabhu.com edited /silo (+81) "/* Linkwrapping */" (view diff)
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cweiske.de created /stapibas (+694) "Created page with "Standalone pingback server written in PHP, storing data in MySQL. == Features == * Receive webmentions and pingbacks * Send out webmentions/pingbacks to each link in an Atom f..."" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu is looking at gTLDs.
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KartikPrabhu did they really make a .clothing and .plumbing?!
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aaronpk KartikPrabhu: http://aaron.pk/n4Uu2
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KartikPrabhu lol
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aaronpk tantek: https://github.com/tantek/cassis/issues/17 any thoughts?
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tantek aaronpk - yeah, that's been on my personal to-do list for quite some time :/
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aaronpk yeah :(
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@jjmajava .@spongefile Events is pretty much the killer app in FB. Yet it's completely overlooked by the competition. Are you hearing this #indieweb? (twitter.com/_/status/448589999890780160)
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tantek heh
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@aaronpk @jjmajava We hear you! Lots of work being done on that front :-) http://indiewebcamp.com/event #indieweb (http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2014/03/25/2/indieweb) (twitter.com/_/status/448590361640701952)
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Loqi [mention] http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2014/03/25/2/indieweb linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/event (webmention)
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aaronpk oops I forgot to mention the other guy
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aaronpk my interface doesn't autofill the same way twitter does :(
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aaronpk heh https://twitter.com/jjmajava/status/448590905294204928
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@jjmajava @aaronpk I'm so clicking the Like button rigt now! I mean, er... Good job! #indiewb #ftw (twitter.com/_/status/448590905294204928)
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@jjmajava RT @aaronpk: @jjmajava We hear you! Lots of work being done on that front :-) http://indiewebcamp.com/event #indieweb (http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2014/03/25/2/indieweb) (twitter.com/_/status/448591204742361088)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/aaronpk/448590361640701952/448590905294204928 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/event (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/aaronpk/448590361640701952/2452831 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/event (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/aaronpk/448590361640701952/14801580 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/event (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/aaronpk/448590361640701952/448591204742361088 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/event (webmention)
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pauloppenheim tantek: sandstorm is not necessarily indieweb related, actually sounds more like a Docker competitor. Also the author is not merely ex-google, he made protocol buffers and cap'n proto
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tantek pauloppenheim: the marketing copy on the home page makes it sound like it is indieweb related
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pauloppenheim tantek: i haven't dug too far into the code, but it seems like a weird way to go about doing what the site describes. Then again I might not be the best person to evaluate that.
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kylewm I find it really disconcerting how the sandstorm.io animation stops abruptly
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pauloppenheim tantek: yeah, i think that's where the intended audience is eventually, but right now the project seems to requre understanding cgroups and chroot
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aaronpk kylewm: meeee tooooo
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pauloppenheim which... doesn't seem very widely accessible
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pauloppenheim i mean hey! i like where this is going!
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pauloppenheim but my housemate is writing an operating system to do something similar, and has been working on it for a few years now, so there are likely traps in there that are as yet unseen
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/gRegorLove/448571486962323456/2319275256 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/Homebrew_Website_Club (webmention)
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pauloppenheim containers are definitely the way to go though, so I wish sandstorm some success
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KevinMarks Javascript can't support tweet ids anyway
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KevinMarks (as integers)
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pauloppenheim tantek: however, sandstorm might fit your "backend engineer tries to do everything" archetype
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aaronpk it's still possible to convert from a large decimal integer to newbase60 without needing to handle >32 bit numbers
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KevinMarks Well, python just goes "we're going to need a bigger int" and copes, but JS converts to float and rounds off
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KevinMarks You can do it but have to keep the twitter id as a string
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tantek right
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tantek "cgroups and chroot" ?!?
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tantek pauloppenheim: goodness. do we need to document the "backend engineer tries to do everything" archetype?
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aaronpk php has bcmath functions for large integers, but that obvs won't work in javascript
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pauloppenheim tantek: possibly.
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pauloppenheim tantek: I think the hubris comes from living in a world like this: https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2014/01/01/Software-in-2014
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dariusdunlap Well, my entry page at https://dunlaps.net now validates for html5. I think making Wordpress do the same is a fool’s errand.
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bret tantek: i installed it yeah
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pauloppenheim oh, tim bray left google?
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dariusdunlap Hmmm. CSS still gets a lot of validation errors, but that seems to be in bootstrap.min.css — not my fight.
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dariusdunlap I’m a little bored with this… maybe I should fire up Xcode. (ha ha)
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tantek bret - when you click the aim: link on tantek.com - does it automatically open our previous AIM conversation?
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pauloppenheim dariusdunlap: hey man, you can test that "patches accepted" phrase everyone always throws around!
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tantek and activate/select the message entry field (thus showing keyboard etc.)?
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dariusdunlap You mean wrt the bootstrap.min.css? heh heh. Seriously, I’m wondering if I have time to stick my head in my ADN Python code to see if I can figure out how to make brid.gy talk to app.net.
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KartikPrabhu anyone here knows/used DJango? having trouble with filters http://stackoverflow.com/questions/22597660/queryset-filter-month-returns-empty
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KartikPrabhu basically DJango refuses to filter by month! Have been stuck on this wrt making short urls
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