#indiewebcamp 2014-03-26

2014-03-26 UTC
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pauloppenheim KartikPrabhu: i should know this, because i am responsible for a django codebase, but i am not positive. lemme see.
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pauloppenheim wait, that doesn't even work like I would expect
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pauloppenheim you can use ints there?
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pauloppenheim KartikPrabhu: i thought you had to use greater than and less than and a datetime object
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kylewm pauloppenheim: https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/dev/ref/models/querysets/#year
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pauloppenheim well, i learned something
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kylewm does make it seem like you could use ints
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pauloppenheim i generally use sqlalchemy, raw sql, or say "fuck it"
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pauloppenheim but, learning opportunity
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pauloppenheim KartikPrabhu: smells like you found a bug
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pauloppenheim do you have the SQL being generated?
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pauloppenheim KartikPrabhu: the comment about printing the query object: if you are in an interactive python shell, it will call __repr__ by default, not __str__
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pauloppenheim you need to explicitly cast as a str()
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pauloppenheim ... ahh, and *i* just saw the "more" button, my apologies
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kylewm the generated SQL seems good... and works on my similar MySQL setup
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pauloppenheim KartikPrabhu: running the generated query gives no results, but the edited query lists your posts?
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pauloppenheim that is, the `blogengine_note`.`pub_date` actually lists the month as "3"?
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kylewm actually....CONVERT_TZ returns NULL for me
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pauloppenheim KartikPrabhu: try SELECT `blogengine_note`.`id`, `blogengine_note`.`slug`, `blogengine_note`.`pub_date`, `blogengine_note`.`_in_reply_to`, `blogengine_note`.`_content`, EXTRACT(MONTH FROM CONVERT_TZ(`blogengine_note`.`pub_date`, 'UTC', America/Los_Angeles)) FROM `blogengine_note` ORDER BY `blogengine_note`.`pub_date` DESC
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pauloppenheim to see what that EXTRACT actually does on your data
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pauloppenheim bc that smells funny to me
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: maybe take a look at http://bugs.mysql.com/bug.php?id=12445 ... perhaps you do not have timezones configured?
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kylewm after running 'mysql_tzinfo_to_sql /usr/share/zoneinfo/ | mysql -u root -p mysql', it now converts the timezones instead of returning NULL
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aaronpk yay timezones
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aaronpk moved all timezone handling to PHP and everything is just UTC in the database
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tantek interesting
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tantek is finally getting around to reading that tbray post
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pdurbin aaronpk: UTC in the database but the PHP shows PST? irc logs, I assume you mean
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KartikPrabhu catches up on answers to his question
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tantek oh man - Simon St.Laurent drops the hammer hard
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tantek https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2014/01/01/Software-in-2014#c1389276907.617415 - that's about right
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: we showed our work ;)
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tantek "I'd like to suggest that you spend some time building web apps." :)
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tantek wow amazing - reading the rest of the comments - it's like a giant backend dev circle kvetch session!
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@davewiner March 15: Indieweb and RSS. http://scripting.com/2014/03/15/indiewebAndRss.html (twitter.com/_/status/448619375575457792)
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kylewm The peo­ple who built this are the ones who built OkCupid, which sug­gests that their tech­ni­cal chops may well be up to the task.
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kylewm ack! sorry, mouse middleclick paste
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tantek heh
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aaronpk pdurbin: I mean that's how I handle timezones in general, php and ruby
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pdurbin aaronpk: ah. ok. yeah, I store data as UTC. and display my irc logs in UTC even thought I'm in EST
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: I actually ran into this after updating to Django 1.6 and doing the timezone thing with mysql.
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KartikPrabhu also saves UTC in database, actually Django does that
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KartikPrabhu pauloppenheim: ref SELECT db query: definitely gives 3 in the EXTRACT column
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KartikPrabhu apologises for posing question and fleeing :)
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dariusdunlap All I wanted to do is post something nice about IndieWebCamp, but first I had to spend the last hour fixing my photos. Aperture previews had got munged and screwed up even the Flickr versions. (Generate Previews was the fix, in case you’re wondering.)
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aaronpk eep photo management is hard
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KartikPrabhu agrees
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dariusdunlap Hmmm. Some of them I had to “Reprocess Originals”. So wierd. *sigh*
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@jalbertbowdenii @davewiner indieweb post has me thinking. good insight, per usual. bummer though. figured that was right up your alley. (twitter.com/_/status/448629359499575296)
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@dariusdunlap IndieWeb Update http://dunlaps.net/darius/?p=1201 (twitter.com/_/status/448639879337877504)
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KartikPrabhu dariusdunlap: the Flickr image is not visible
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dariusdunlap Yeah, looking into that now. It was there in the preview.
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KartikPrabhu also cool post! :)
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aaronpk I need a bite-size list of indieweb/p3k things to work on that I can easily dive into after a long day at the office. having trouble getting back into that mindset after today.
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: i thought you maintained such a list on https://indiewebcamp.com/p3k
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aaronpk sorta
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aaronpk somtimes the things aren't small enough
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bret grrr still getting weird url resolving with gh-pages and indieauth
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bret they must do something wacky
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bret maybe its time to write a jekyll server
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aaronpk bret: if you type in bret.io/ does it work all the time?
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bret in the browser ya
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kylewm looking for inspiration: (how) do you receive notifications of incoming webmentions? thinking about sending myself an email.
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bret in indieauth i usually do just bret.io no slash
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bret kylewm check out what barnaby did, browser notifications
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kylewm bret: yea! that's awesome, a little over my head maybe
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aaronpk kylewm: ironically I don't right now, but am gonna be getting there soon probably via IRC notifications or an ios app
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: never thought about doing that!... maybe I should
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aaronpk I was actually thinking about making an ios app where you put in the URL of an h-feed of your incoming mentions and it sends you a push notification whenever it's updated
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kylewm fun, sounds like lots of room for exploration. aaronpk that would be very nice. if you do i'll port it to android :)
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kylewm my first attempt was to have IFTTT email me when a new mention was posted to an ATOM feed, but it seems to poll every few hours if that
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kylewm s/ATOM/Atom
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Loqi kylewm meant to say: my first attempt was to have IFTTT email me when a new mention was posted to an Atom feed, but it seems to poll every few hours if that
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aaronpk yeah IFTTT is not exactly realtime
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aaronpk I wonder if that's small enough to bust out tonight....
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bret kylewm, he said it was pretty easy! but then again taproot is pretty amazing
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bret it looked decently aproachable
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aaronpk I did just spend a lot of time today on the apple developer site messing with push certs, so at least that part will be super familiar
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bret how much does it cost to send push notifications?
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aaronpk $0
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aaronpk well, you have to have an apple account
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bret to get started sending them?
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aaronpk so, $100/year
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aaronpk but they don't charge for the push api
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bret ah ok thats it
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bret didnt know if the charged extra or something, but you need to be a dev
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bret.io edited /events/2014-03-26-homebrew-website-club (+79) "/* RSVP */ see ya there" (view diff)
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@dougmckown Hey #indieweb folks, any thoughts on using @TryGhost as a blogging platform? Does it support microformats? (twitter.com/_/status/448650137888235520)
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tantek people on Twitter keep asking questions with obvious answers if they just checked the wiki
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aaronpk didnt someone send a PR to them adding microformats?
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aaronpk yup https://github.com/TryGhost/Casper/pull/29
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bret iirc, if the theme supports it
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aaronpk it's too bad, it's such a tiny PR
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bret they didnt want to include it in core
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tantek aaronpk, re: "need a bite-size list of indieweb/p3k things to work on" <-- this is why I prefer a wiki to github issues
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aaronpk i don't think that's really the problem I'm having
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tantek text lists are MUCH easier to split / reactor *as a whole* on a wiki page than as a discrete set of "issues"
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bret is there a markdown plugin for mediawiki?
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bret ill look into it
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aaronpk bret: yeah there is, i'm scared to enable it because it might break all the pages
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tantek heh indeed
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tantek is there no way to require using a <markdown> tag around markdown content or something?
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tantek so that existing content is not affected?
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aaronpk I could proabbly make a plugin that does that. would that really be useful tho?
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KartikPrabhu "At this time though, we're not ready to recommend it as part of the default Ghost theme." mf2 has nothign to do with themes!!
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aaronpk KartikPrabhu: it kinda does, it goes in the theme file cause it's part of the HTML
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KartikPrabhu hmmm... I think of themes=look of the site
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KartikPrabhu oh well
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bret since it ends up in the html markup they are throwing it in the theme category, which I think themes can muck with
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tantek.com created /ghost (+19) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /TryGhost (+19) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /tryghost (+19) "r" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu which i feel is odd since mf2 only adds semantics just like their default classes of "post-excerpt" or something
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aaronpk the diff is ridiculously small https://github.com/TryGhost/Casper/pull/29/files
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tantek KartikPrabhu: easy to just start here: http://indiewebcamp.com/Ghost#Issues
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tantek if anyone wants to reply to that tweet
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emmak aaronpk: does ownyourgram.com require SSL for the Oauth2 endpoints?
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emmak if I use a self-signed cert, will that cause problems?
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aaronpk emmak: it doesn't require it right now but I will likely require it in the future, and yes self-signed certs won't work
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aaronpk but, startssl offers free ssl certs, so it's not a big deal
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KartikPrabhu seems like Neil Gaiman is POSSEing https://twitter.com/neilhimself/status/448652461805674496
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@neilhimself There. I loved my holiday from my Twitter Hiatus. And now I'm going back to writing until May. I'll blog (& it'll autopost here when I do). (twitter.com/_/status/448652461805674496)
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: trying to simplify tree-traversing in mf2py. ran into this: https://github.com/kartikprabhu/mf2py/issues/29
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: I'm a little confused -- that output looks right to me, no?
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KartikPrabhu what about the name property for the hentry
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KartikPrabhu it picks both KP1 and KP2 as names but it should actually use implied name
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kylewm isn't the implied property " the textContent of the .h-x for name "
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KartikPrabhu yes. see updated comment
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KartikPrabhu h-entry name should be "KP\nKP1" not a list ["KP","KP1"]
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KartikPrabhu I also added a whole bunch of print statements to track the tree traversing and it is traversing nodes twice since I removed the parsed set
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kylewm what's the etiquette here, should we go to a private discussion to avoid subjecting everyone else to mf2py stuff?
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tantek good evening #indiewebcamp!
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aaronpk there's always #microformats
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tantek kylewm - if it's just - yeah - what aaronpk said :)
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tantek all such general discussion of #microformats including parsers, implementations is totally welcome there!
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kylewm excellent, thx
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aaronpk whoa, I just got an email from the google crawler
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aaronpk "Google detected a significant increase in the number of URLs we could not access."
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kylewm "aaronpk, what are you trying to hide from Mother Google??"
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aaronpk this is amazing
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aaronpk there's a whole log of errors google found while crawling
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aaronpk and a "mark as fixed" button
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KartikPrabhu interesting
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tantek that sounds creepy aaronpk!
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aaronpk creepy? why!
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KartikPrabhu are you on Google Webmaster or something?
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aaronpk yeah I guess so
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KartikPrabhu that's why I guess
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tantek because the spiders are contacting you!
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aaronpk what! you can even tell google to re-fetch a page and see the result!
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aaronpk and then tell it to re-submit it to the index
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tantek aaronpk, you do realize it's the Google Spiders you're communicating with right? Not some amorphous "Google" organization?
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tantek I'd bet this is all automated directly under control of the bots.
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aaronpk prefers to think of google as a single all-knowing entity
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tantek that's too coarse of a model IMO
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tantek I'm not even convinced their bots act collectively as a single entity
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tantek let alone the huge divergence in behavior among their human components
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KartikPrabhu by human you surely mean cylons?
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KartikPrabhu maybe we should use the term "silon" for pro-silo people :P
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kylewm KartikPrabhu++
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Loqi KartikPrabhu has 14 karma
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: don't encourage my puns :P
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kylewm sorry, will always upvote BSG puns
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aaronpk well that was fun, just went through and fixed a bunch of bugs thanks to google's spiders
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aaronpk apparently google had been getting about 13 errors per day crawling my site, it went up to 19 today and I got an email
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aaronpk WHOA there's even a microformats validator built in to this
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aaronpk I have 39 items missing an "fn" property
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aaronpk also they show me the number of impressions I get in search results vs the number of clicks
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aaronpk apparently I have like 50 search terms that resulted in 100% clickthrough
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aaronpk how have I never explored the google webmaster tools before
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KartikPrabhu I have always stopped short of verifying my site, when they ask me to upload some html / meta markup
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KartikPrabhu even though I have Google+ profile as a rel=me
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aaronpk I am also the top result for a ridiculous number of searches
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aaronpk mostly from my oauth 2 post
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KevinMarks Webmaster tools are pretty good, they do include microformats 1 validation
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KevinMarks Though how that shows up in SERPs is a different matter
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dariusdunlap aaronpk - does this fix your need for a list of things to fix? ;-)
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dariusdunlap Oh, and great idead, re: “… ios app where you put in the URL of an h-feed of your incoming mentions and it sends you a push notification whenever it's updated”
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dariusdunlap s/idead/idea
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Loqi dariusdunlap meant to say: Oh, and great idea, re: “… ios app where you put in the URL of an h-feed of your incoming mentions and it sends you a push notification whenever it's updated”
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aaronpk heh yes, that was a nice todo list
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aaronpk I also now have a UI sketch, DB schema, and rough API spec for the app
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@kevinmarks "@t: URLs For People Focused Mobile Communication: http://t.co/sPnvMLZ8ES" #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/448686739943473152)
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@OhhSocialMedia RT @kevinmarks: "@t: URLs For People Focused Mobile Communication: http://t.co/sPnvMLZ8ES" #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/448687730709762048)
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pauloppenheim yeah, i have just discovered Google Webmaster Tools for work in the past week, it's pretty handy
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pauloppenheim related: anyone here know IIS?
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aaronpk last time I used IIS was in windows 95
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aaronpk it may have been windows 98 actually
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tantek keep missing julien51 - just saw the logs from VERY early this morning (~1:18 onward)
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pauloppenheim yeah man, it's definitely tears over here, but i've gotta do it
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tantek ironic that julien51 claims there's an RSS/Atom community, but provides no URL to any evidence thereof.
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tantek ok - done with my next step in figuring out People Centered Comms
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tantek using your indieweb site
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tantek this took A LOT longer than I expected, and certainly longer than I had to work on it at IndieWebCampSF
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tantek http://tantek.com/2014/084/b1/urls-people-focused-mobile-communication
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caseorganic Tantek++
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Loqi Tantek has 28 karma
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KartikPrabhu tantek++ that is a great study on URLs and how they ought to work!
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Loqi tantek has 29 karma
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KartikPrabhu wait! how does tantek only have 29 karma!!
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KartikPrabhu feels happy that he has only half as much karma as tantek!
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KartikPrabhu tantek: what is a good policy to note/tweet your posts? use original URL or short one is ok?
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KartikPrabhu used short one for now ^^
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pauloppenheim tantek, that's pretty awesome
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tantek KartikPrabhu: either should work no problem :)
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tantek thank you!
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KevinMarks_ the long one is clearer on hover when the platform shortens (twitter)
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KartikPrabhu twitter-- aah well! twitter does not allow editing!
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Loqi twitter has -1 karma
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pauloppenheim tantek: your js "function keyup" business is not friendly for accessibility
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tantek huh. what problem are you running into?
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pauloppenheim keyboard navigation
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pauloppenheim uses arrow keys
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tantek yeah - that's actually *friendly* for accessibility
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tantek since it provides another option
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tantek for nav
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pauloppenheim ?
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tantek next/prev post
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pauloppenheim tab works fine
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pauloppenheim your site supports that already
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tantek no tab goes between input fields
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pauloppenheim try it
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tantek that's totally different
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tantek I did
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pauloppenheim that's what people expect
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pauloppenheim i mean, it's nice if it's the first tab
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tantek tab and arrow keys are totally different
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pauloppenheim but not essential
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pauloppenheim right
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tantek so… not sure what you're talking about
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pauloppenheim arrows are for in-page nav
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tantek when you say "tab works fine"
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pauloppenheim tab is for element nav
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tantek up/down arrow works for that
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tantek and does page up / down
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tantek which is all you need for in-page nav
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pauloppenheim tantek: do you use a keyboard for web navigation?
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tantek left/right helps you flip through posts quickly
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tantek like hypercards :)
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: It'll be cool if bridgy takes me directly to my own page if I am logged in or something instead of showing me the homepage facepile :)
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: true! easier said than done, sadly, since there's no such thing as "logged into" bridgy right now
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snarfed i need to encourage people to bookmark their user page
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KartikPrabhu aah yes true! :)
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snarfed fortunately user page urls are pretty predictable, at least for twitter and ig
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pauloppenheim tantek: i'm just telling you what i'm seeing, as a keyboard user. You don't have to change on my account, it's your site.
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: good suggestion! done! :)
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tantek the left/right arrow nav for prev/next post is deliberate - good to hear the confirmation that it's working as expected in terms of what you're seeing
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: then can someone publish from my account currently? I can atleast see the preview from a "private session" on FF
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: oddly yes. they can only publish posts that exist on your site, though, so they couldn't post something from you that you didn't write
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KartikPrabhu haha! :)
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snarfed still, it is a strange kind of security hole. i've ignored it since more of a fix kind of requires a full bridgy login, but i'm open to suggestions
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KartikPrabhu I wouldn't know how to fix it yet... may be check for Twitter login or something of that nature
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aaronparecki.com created /mention-app (+2978) "brain dump" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu it would be a funny kind of anti-trolling to POSSE someone without being them
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aaronpk suggestions welcome http://indiewebcamp.com/mention-app
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@AAinslie RT @kevinmarks: "@t: URLs For People Focused Mobile Communication: http://t.co/sPnvMLZ8ES" #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/448710601167364096)
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KevinMarks_ hmm, that might fit in with the app I use on android
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KevinMarks_ https://github.com/kevinmarks/nanotweeter
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KevinMarks_ I've been meaning to update it again
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KevinMarks_ and actually put it in the app store
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KevinMarks_ mine works by having a config screen and just issuing notifications, but not registering for the tweet URLs so you get whatever twitter app you choose
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KevinMarks_ though the offical one keeps giving me 'cannot retrieve tweet at this time' msgs
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cweiske how should web application profile pages link to the user's homepage?
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cweiske rel=me?
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KevinMarks_ sounds right to me
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cweiske then how do I, as a mf2 parser, determine the homepage of the user?
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cweiske the homepage also rel=me to all other pages
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cweiske it's a circle, and there is no way to detect the beginning
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cweiske s/beginning/root/
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Loqi cweiske meant to say: it's a circle, and there is no way to detect the root
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Loqi [mention] https://snarfed.org/2014-03-25_bridgy-publish linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] https://snarfed.org/2014-03-25_bridgy-publish linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/reply (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] https://snarfed.org/2014-03-25_bridgy-publish linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#Publishing_Software (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] https://snarfed.org/2014-03-25_bridgy-publish linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/like (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] https://snarfed.org/2014-03-25_bridgy-publish linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/repost (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] https://snarfed.org/2014-03-25_bridgy-publish linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/rsvp (pingback)
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KevinMarks_ hm, maybe I'm misunderstanding the question
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_: I think cweiske means to ask how to determine the "canonical" profile for someone if all of them are linked via rel=me
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KartikPrabhu yes?
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cweiske yes
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KevinMarks_ on the same site?
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KevinMarks_ or across sites?
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cweiske imagine you get a webmention from some url
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cweiske across sites
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cweiske you parse it, find an author with its url
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cweiske the url contains one rel=me link
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KevinMarks_ hm. aaronpk's answer is to only allow some kinds of URL to be root, right?
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cweiske the url referenced there references back to the url with rel=me
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cweiske so I can't determine which one is the real homepage of the author
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KevinMarks_ the author can have more than one
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cweiske KevinMarks, do you want me to link to your twitter profile, or your hompeage?
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KevinMarks_ you can take a stand like aaron and say your own domain only, no silos
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cweiske.de edited /webmention (+46) "/* Publishing Software */" (view diff)
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cweiske then you can't rel=me to silos
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cweiske or any other page from your homepage
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KevinMarks_ yes you can, indiauth won't let you login with a twitter url, only a domain
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KevinMarks_ so it enforces owned domains
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cweiske how does it determine that?
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KevinMarks_ conversely, google won't show your photo in SERPs unless you route your rel=me via a G+ URL
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cweiske because it filters twitter urls?
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KevinMarks_ because it only allows domains without paths I think. aaron?
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cweiske that'd be a silly limitation
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KevinMarks_ right, that's why this is tricky
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KevinMarks_ you can traverse all the rel=me links and find the one that has the most, if they're doing a star configuration
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cweiske.de edited /webmention () "(-1105) /* Implementations */" (view diff)
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cweiske that fails if the page has only one rel=me
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KevinMarks_ iirc that's what we used to do with the google crawler
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cweiske 1:1
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KevinMarks_ if there's only one, it's easy
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cweiske no
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cweiske A links to B, B links to A
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KevinMarks_ you mean if there are two, my domain and twitter only?
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cweiske which one is canonical?
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cweiske yes
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KevinMarks_ you could prefer non-silos
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cweiske KevinMarks, my code doesn't know anything about silos and does not want to
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cweiske because it would break as soon as the next silo emerges
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KevinMarks_ you could prefer bare domain to domain wiht path
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cweiske this is still a silly limitation
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KevinMarks_ and domain to subdomain
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KevinMarks_ it's not a limitation, it's a heuristic
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cweiske which means it will fail
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KevinMarks_ yes, you're tryign to guess intent
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Loqi [mention] https://snarfed.org/2014-03-25_bridgy-publish linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (pingback)
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KevinMarks_ there are worse failures, like 2 cofounders using rel=me to their company
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cweiske.de edited /webmention (+1049) "/* IndieWeb implementations */" (view diff)
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KevinMarks_ which makes them the same person
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KevinMarks_ you can look for uid, per representative hcard: http://microformats.org/wiki/representative-hcard-parsing
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Loqi [mention] https://snarfed.org/2014-03-25_bridgy-publish linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (pingback)
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KevinMarks_ you could use sgnodemapper to decide if it's a silo, and what the canonical form is
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KevinMarks_ hm, porting that to node should be easy
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cweiske KevinMarks, thans for the uid link
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cweiske that seems to be the solution
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@eschnou Zuck thinks he can own the future of the web, as a VR platform? Smart and ambitious move, but let's make sure this never happen. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/448720853090713601)
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cweiske although
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cweiske no
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cweiske it's used to markup one of many hcards on one page
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cweiske not a canonical one
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KevinMarks_ the problen with multisite rel=me crawling is that you are potentially sampling different opions of he person about which one is most representative (I don't think canonical is right here)
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KevinMarks_ rel=canonical is used differently
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cweiske yes
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cweiske I didn't mean rel=canonical
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KevinMarks_ right, but you're assuming there is One True URL
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cweiske that's indieweb think
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KevinMarks_ take me for example
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KevinMarks_ I thought of myself at epeus.blogspot.com as primary for ages
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KevinMarks_ if you'd asked me 2 years ago I'd have used twitter.com/kevinmarks
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KevinMarks_ earlier, profiles.google.com/kevinmarks
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KevinMarks_ then I was using kevin-marks.com for a while
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KevinMarks_ then I got kevinmarks.com working
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KevinMarks_ they all still resolve, they're all still me
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cweiske sure, I understand that
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cweiske but kevinmarks.com is your "main" page
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KevinMarks_ well, it is now
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cweiske yes. and *now* there is no way to figure even *that* out
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cweiske not speaking of change management
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KevinMarks_ You can only ever use heuristics for this
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cweiske as soon as semanticscuttle sends I-bookmarked-you webmentions, you will have to figure that out
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cweiske although you could simply link to the user page on semanticscuttle
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cweiske what you will probably do
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KevinMarks_ asking google, my twitter comes first, followe by wikipedia, then my domain
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KevinMarks_ as twitter only allows one link, you could pick that one :D
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cweiske I don't use twitter, but I use a self-hosted bookmarking application
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cweiske now my homepage rel=me to the user page on it, and it's user page rel=me to my homepage
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cweiske no twitter in there.
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snarfed hey aaronpk, do you know if IndieNews handles https links ok? the http pages i submitted are ok, but the two recent https ones are unhappy
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snarfed http://news.indiewebcamp.com/newest , click on the "comments" links for Bridgy Publish and Let's Talk userscript
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snarfed i know indienews is low priority, so just fyi. obviously not important
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@reposter_net RT @kevinmarks: "@t: URLs For People Focused Mobile Communication: http://t.co/sPnvMLZ8ES" #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/448740230107889664)
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pdurbin aaronpk: this indienews thing is neat!
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tommorris indienews is neat.
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julien51 tantek: “ironic that julien51 claims there's an RSS/Atom community, but provides no URL to any evidence thereof.” Please, Tantek, stop. I (we) get it: you don’t like RSS feeds and that’s ok. Do we need a ‘URL’ to have a community? I understand you don’t like feeds, but the world is vast enough that you can work on things you care about without dismissing other people’s work. There *are* a lot of people working on RSS relat
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julien51 things, and they don’t need to *show you* their work to exist. Also, “preferring XML is preferring machines over humans” repalce with HTML and it’s the same! As far as I know, no one reads XML at breakfast and no one reads HTML either. In both cases you’re reading a representation of it, whether it’s in a browser, a web app or some other tool. And yes, I agree that browsers do a really bad job at showing RSS/Atom content.
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julien51 That being said I’m so happy that this discussion is happening for the indieWeb people. RSS/Atom are not a decent level of usability, hackability, … etc. We need to do better and more importantly we need to make sure we don’t dismiss the work that has already been built to achieve a place where the situation is more satisafying: “building in shoulder’s giants” as they say. “Following/subscribing” needs to have a meaning i
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julien51 the IndieWeb, other than “Follow me on Twitter” and it needs to be something that makes sense without knowing the piping (RSS, Atom, h-feed… etc).
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julien51 @aaronpk if you have problem with IFTTT, feel free to email me, I can help.
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julien51 kylewm tell me more abour your ATOM feed mention to email workflow What are you trying to achieve?
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barnabywalters julien51++
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Loqi julien51 has 1 karma
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julien51 Thanks barnabywalters :)
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@ShaneHudson RT @kevinmarks: "@t: URLs For People Focused Mobile Communication: http://t.co/sPnvMLZ8ES" #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/448787612925693952)
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tommorris julien51: tantek isn’t here. ;)
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julien51 tommorris I’m sure he’ll get my messages when he’s back as he usually does :)
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tommorris the debate about feeds reminds me of my favourite Richard Rorty quote...
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tommorris "Philosophers get attention only when they appear to be doing something sinister—corrupting the youth, undermining the foundations of civilization, sneering at all we hold dear. The rest of the time everybody assumes that they are hard at work somewhere down in the sub-basement, keeping those foundations in good repair. Nobody much cares what brand of
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tommorris intellectual duct tape is being used."
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KartikPrabhu tommorris++
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Loqi tommorris has 20 karma
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julien51 tommorris++
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Loqi tommorris has 21 karma
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cweiske Loqi++
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Loqi Loqi has 239 karma
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cweiske Loqi++
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cweiske Loqi++++
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KartikPrabhu cweiske: stop picking on Loqi :P
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Loqi :)
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cweiske Loqi++
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barnabywalters julien51: I have a PuSH 0.4 question — for both my reader and anti-spam tool, I’m going to want to subscribe both to RSS/ATOM feeds and to HTML content. obviously superfeedr can do both of these. should I hard-code everything against superfeedr, or look up hubs and subscribe to each hub, treating superfeedr as a special case fallback for when there is no hub?
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julien51 you should not hardcode hubs
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Loqi yea
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julien51 and yes use superfeedr as “default”
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julien51 The process is like this:
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julien51 1- Find resource you want to subscribe
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Loqi !calc 1- Find resource you want to subscribe
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julien51 2- Chcek for a "Link" header which points to a hub.
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julien51 * If there is one => Susbcribe to the hub designated
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julien51 * If there is none, continue
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julien51 3- Check for a <atom:link> element which points to a hub.
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julien51 * if there is one => Subscribe to the designated hub
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julien51 * If there is none => Subscribe using tha Superfeedr default hub : push.superfeedr.com
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barnabywalters and according to PuSH 0.4 I should also look for <a>/<link> with rel=hub IIRC
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barnabywalters julien51: that’s a really useful guide, is it published anywhere?
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julien51 not that I know of, but it’s a simple fallback strategy: 0.4 -> 0.3 -> Superfeedr :)
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barnabywalters julien51: simple for someone who lives this stuff, non-obvious to the rest of us :) I’ll add it to the wiki
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julien51 barnabywalters you’re right, I’m clearly biased here :D
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barnabywalters and for things like HTML fragment subscriptions, always use superfeedr
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julien51 barnabywalters: probably, but I hope other hubs will have that feature at some point too
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julien51 Actually, no
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julien51 that should be the same logic
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julien51 Let me explain: if a publisher supports PubSubHubbub, it should point to the hub it picked for its resources, including fragment-ed resources.
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julien51 and if it does, then, you should use that hub
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julien51 however, for now (and probably the near future) Superfeedr is the only service doing that I believe
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /PubSubHubbub (+641) "/* Subscribe to a PuSH-enabled feed */ added hub discovery algorithm" (view diff)
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barnabywalters julien51: I don’t understand — does that mean publishers need to understand fragmented resources, and send pings for them?
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barnabywalters as in, send pings for all possible fragments of a document?
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julien51 I ‘m not sure whay you mean by “understand”, but yes they need to ping the hub when these resources update
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julien51 but no, they should probably not send ping for all resources
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julien51 the hubs are smart enough to check for change on a given document and know if fragments that are subscribed have changed
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julien51 so, the hub gets a ping for http://my.domain/resource, right
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julien51 the will fetch that resouce
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barnabywalters julien51: okay, so subscribing to http://waterpigs.co.uk/#.h-entry acts like a subscription to http://waterpigs.co.uk/ as far as the publisher is concerned, but the hub uses the fragment to check when to ping the subscriber
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julien51 and check if it has susbcriber for http://my.domain/resource or anything http://my.domain/resource#….
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julien51 if it has, it will check if the right part have changed and if they did, ping the subscribers
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julien51 barnabywalters, almost….
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julien51 the only notable difference (and I was about to update the Wiki for this), is that the publisher is responsible for telling the subscriber which resource it should subscribe to, thru a rel=“self” link (or a Link header)
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barnabywalters ah, sure, that makes sense
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julien51 so, in the case of a fragmented-resoruce, if the hub picked (explictly) a hub that’s capable of it, it should have a Link Header with rel=“self” which includes the fragment
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barnabywalters oh right
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barnabywalters huh
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barnabywalters is this documented anywhere?
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julien51 if the publisher did not pick a hub capable of it, it should obviously not include fragment in the Link
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julien51 not specifically, but that’s the 0.4 spec
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julien51 publishers MUST include a rel=“self” link
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julien51 with the href pointing to the subscribe-able resource
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barnabywalters sure, but the behaviour is non-intuitive to me as a web developer who’s used to fragment IDs not having any server-side effects
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julien51 well, that does not change anything if you don’t know about them, obviously
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julien51 and note that all this is the 0.4 spec
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julien51 [fragments are just a subcase of it]
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ouvre-boite.com edited /PubSubHubbub (+166) "/* Subscribe to a PuSH-enabled feed */" (view diff)
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barnabywalters so, I’m still a little unclear about what this means for publishers. is the following correct? I am a publisher, publishing http://waterpigs.co.uk/ which is a HTML page with h-entries on it. I know that the hub I publish to allows for HTML fragment subscription.
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barnabywalters someone sends a GET request with a fragment at the end. I know the hub supports this, so I return a response with a rel=self link to that URL *with the fragment*
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barnabywalters whereas if my hub doesn’t support HTML fragment subscription, I should just return a rel=self link to the fragment-less page
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julien51 If I want to subscribe to http://waterpigs.co.uk/, your self should be http://waterpigs.co.uk/ (always)
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julien51 If want to subscribe http://waterpigs.co.uk/#.hentry and you picked a hub that supports that, the self should be http://waterpigs.co.uk/#.hentry
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julien51 If I want to subscribe http://waterpigs.co.uk/#.hentry but you picked a hub which does not support it, the self should be http://waterpigs.co.uk/
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julien51 and as a publisher, no matter what, you should ping the hub for *any* changes in http://waterpigs.co.uk/
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julien51 if the hub supports fragment, it will “see” that this resource has changed and will check any fragment for a change
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julien51 if the hub does not support fragments, it will propagate things
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barnabywalters okay, that makes sense — and if I’m a subscriber who wants to subscribe to #.h-entry updates no matter what, in the first case I subscribe using the given hub, and in the second case I either fall back to using superfeedr (if I don’t want to filter myself) or subscribe using their given hub and do filtering myself if I care more about getting real-time updates
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julien51 exactly
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barnabywalters wow, okay — this is more complex than I thought!
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julien51 :( but, but bear in mind that to the subscriber fragments don’t really matter (they work like eveything else!)
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barnabywalters julien51: well, apart from the extra decision-making which needs to happen based on them
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julien51 no extra decision making should happen
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julien51 as the subscriber you do that:
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julien51 1- Get the self from the resource to which you want to subscribe
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Loqi !calc 1- Get the self from the resource to which you want to subscribe
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julien51 2- Get the hub from the resource to which you want to subscribe
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Loqi !calc 2- Get the hub from the resource to which you want to subscribe
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julien51 [using the previous algorith]
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julien51 3- subscribe to the self using the hub (or Superfeedr)
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julien51 4- Done
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julien51 when you get notifications, you should then check what you got
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julien51 using the self of the notifictaion
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julien51 and then do whatever you want with the data you got :)
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@MogulAzam RT @kevinmarks: "@t: URLs For People Focused Mobile Communication: http://t.co/sPnvMLZ8ES" #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/448808815442419712)
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julien51 barnabywalters I’ll try to write a dedicated blog post for fragments if you want
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barnabywalters julien51: that would be awesome, currently a little distracted by actual work work but will return to discussion later :)
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julien51 great :)
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ben_thatmustbeme Phew, finished reading up to date. Good morning all
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barnabywalters morning ben_thatmustbeme!
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ben_thatmustbeme Read tantek's newest post on the way in too. Seems Google Hangouts does have some system of generating a Hangout Now button, but it uses intents and some JS
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ben_thatmustbeme looks pretty messy
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tommorris enjoys the idea of fax hipsters.
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tommorris Type up message on ironically vintage manual type writer, send as fax.
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tommorris Perhaps BERG could set up a fax-to-LittlePrinter gateway.
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@eay Kapitel zur alternativen Sicherung von Nutzerdaten. Gerade das IndieWeb beschrieben, nun folgt Reclaim.fm (@diplix). #Bachelorarbeit (twitter.com/_/status/448827614200078336)
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gRegor` fax hipsters - faxsters?
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snarfed gRegor`: :P
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snarfed hey kylewm, just fyi, you might want to turn off flask debugging on your site: http://kylewm.com/note/140221/1
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kylewm snarfed: ty, I had it on momentarily, should be off now. still need to configure proper logging in production mode
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kylewm julien51: re: my Atom->email workflow. When I get a new mention, it shows up in a PuSH (I think) Atom feed... I was trying to get an email notification in response to that change. The problem may have been that my feed was broken, as you pointed out. Will have to test more
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julien51 kylewm: what hub do you use?
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kylewm pubsubhubub.appspot
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kylewm http://pubsubhubbub.appspot.com/ rather
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julien51 ha, then, I can’t help debug much… but if you try with http://pubsubhubbub.superfeedr.com/ I can look things up :)
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kylewm are you saying that iFTTT *should* respond to push events?
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julien51 kylewm yes, they should, but I know they’re also caching some stuff
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julien51 also kylewm if you want to see who is the culprit, you can try to subscribe to your feed in the #notifix room
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julien51 and see if updates are propagated there as soon as you post them :)
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julien51 or you can send direct messages to the notifix user as well :)
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kylewm awesome
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@PersonaInc Let your data be your guide! http://www.abrandnewview.com/blog/let-your-data-be-your-guide-navigating-customer-connections-online @MyPersona #MyPersona #OwnYourData (twitter.com/_/status/448846429659090946)
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@KingGunn RT @PersonaInc: Let your data be your guide! http://www.abrandnewview.com/blog/let-your-data-be-your-guide-navigating-customer-connections-online @MyPersona #MyPersona #OwnYourData (twitter.com/_/status/448846614774677504)
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kylewm !tell tantek on the subject of keyboard navigation on tantek.com (sorry if this has been beaten to death)
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kylewm I like the j/k navigation a quite a bit, but not when a modifier is pressed. I use ctrl-k to search or ctrl-shift-k to open the console.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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aaronpk omg logs
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Loqi tantek: kylewm left you a message 9 minutes ago: on the subject of keyboard navigation on tantek.com (sorry if this has been beaten to death)
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tantek kylewm - I only got that first line :)
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barnabywalters Loqi apparently chokes on semicolons
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Loqi woot!
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kylewm tantek: interesting, the rest was just that "i like j/k navigation quite a bit except when ctrl/ctrl+shift are down"
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gRegor` Loqi chokes on backticks too. :(
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gRegor` Wonder what it thinks of carets.
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gRegor` !tell gRegor^ Testing
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gRegor` Phooey
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, okay, i've decompiled the hangouts app and been poking at tons of different attempts for the past like 2 hours, no luck finding a way to have a URL launch a hangout
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aaronpk gRegor`: should work now...
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aaronpk !tell gRegor` hi
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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gRegor` woot!
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Loqi gRegor`: aaronpk left you a message 4 minutes ago: hi
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Loqi :D
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gRegor` Thanks, aaronpk
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gRegor` I was contemplating changing my nick so you wouldn't have to mess with regex. :)
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@julanimtic @Tredok lá je regarde surtout du côté d'indieweb je pense me lancer prochainement : http://indiewebify.me/ @fourmeux @naudinsylvain (twitter.com/_/status/448859817994887168)
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tantek tries to catch up a bit
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: whoa - you *decompiled* hangouts app?!? which platform?
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tantek yeah, the absence of gtalk: and xmpp: handling is very sad :(
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ben_thatmustbeme I just grabbed the android apk, and riped it apart, its a matter of digging through a bunch of half opcode files after that though
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tantek sweet
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tantek digs through a lot of apparently complex explanation of how to support PuSH from julien51 :/
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ben_thatmustbeme i found all the hooks for sms: smsto: mms: mmsto: but alas, nothing more
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tantek yeah - that's ironic
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tantek at least *some* explanation of how to support PuSH is better than none
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tantek now we just have to figure out if we can simplify it
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ben_thatmustbeme it looks like they had some set up for g: but it wasn't working
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tantek stuff that is too much work for publishers with little benefit to them has low adoption chances
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: yeah. I've reported lack of gtalk: support to the Hangouts folks - so hopefully it's in their fix queue
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, there have been a couple reports of it. Seems like they are pushing for these Intents buttons now though, but even with those, no luck at starting a chat with a specific user
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ben_thatmustbeme other possibility is its licensing issues with them using vidyo (i think that was the company) to create hangouts.
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ben_thatmustbeme Thats why APIs for hangouts are so different
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ben_thatmustbeme General question: what would be the indie web method of authenticating between two sites? I'm thinking I want a unique key to be stored on a "friend"'s site
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Loqi gives ben_thatmustbeme a unique key to be stored on a
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gRegor` Not surprised it doesn't support xmpp: since they've mostly gutted xmpp support.
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: that's what indieauth is for
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ben_thatmustbeme thank you Loqi
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Loqi yeah!
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aaronpk you can already sign in to my site and barnaby's site and i think a few others
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ben_thatmustbeme So the hell with it. I wanted to make up the code first to test this out, but Its going to take me so long to get to that point since I'm building it ground up.
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ben_thatmustbeme Basically what I was thinking is some method to extend h-cards with personal info like phone number and e-mail that I don't want publicly viewed, but which I want to give others that I have OKed access to. So something like adding ?auth=<sometoken>
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aaronpk yeah
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aaronpk once you set up an auth endpoint that'll work
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ben_thatmustbeme so they use indieauth on my site and it just gives them the URL?
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aaronpk if you go through the step by step at ownyourgram.com you'll get there
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ben_thatmustbeme I'll try that when I get to that point
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gRegor` You could use indieauth with an ACL so your site knows to show your number to example.com, but not enemy.com :)
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ben_thatmustbeme I'm just thinking I'll want to report it back to their site directly so they can store their contacts list privately on their site
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aaronpk basically set up your site as an OAuth server, but you can use indieauth.com as your auth server to cut out 80% of the work
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ben_thatmustbeme this is going to be a long build process...
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aaronpk tiny steps
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ben_thatmustbeme its phenomenally depressing when I'm like a day in to my own site, but yes. I want to do this thing completely and learn every piece as I go
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gRegor` "Baby steps. Baby steps around the office."
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ben_thatmustbeme hopefully i'll have an android app in a few months that I could basically use as my contacts list (storing non-indie web info too, but pulls latest data from IWC sites)
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gRegor` Are you setting up Oauth, ben_thatmustbeme?
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ben_thatmustbeme has flashbacks of watching "What About Bob"
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ben_thatmustbeme hadn't thought that far down the road yet
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gRegor` Where did you end up on WordPress vs. something else vs. build your own?
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gRegor` I like your distributed contact list idea, btw. Will gladly help test on Android.
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snarfed kylewm, saw that you tried bridgy publish. thanks! any problems?
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snarfed (i see the errant "foo" in the recent publishes section. fixing now.)
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kylewm snarfed: nope not really! I was going to tell you that it didn't like my having multiple websites listed in facebook, but then saw there was already an issue for that
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snarfed heh yeah. the backlog of issues labeled "now" is getting big. gotta get cranking on those!
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: how about this - start with adding yourself to: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: I totally sympathize with the "phenomenally depressing when I'm like a day in to my own site, but yes. I want to do this thing completely and learn every piece as I go" - we can help with that :)
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tantek oh there you are!
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tantek next: feel free to braindump a list of "Itches" on your wiki page: http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Ben.thatmustbe.me
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tantek at least that way you can braindump all the things above you mentioned above into a flat list and folks here can also help with sorting, easier things first etc. based on prior experience
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tantek a bunch of us have lists like that in various phases, e.g.: http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Tommorris.org#personal_site_todo
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tommorris my to-do seems to grow rather than shrink.
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tantek.com edited /User:Tantek.com (+86) "update photo" (view diff)
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tantek tommorris - that's natural, and high priority things bubble to the top, and some things become obsolete and you can delete them
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tantek tommorris - or we end up clustering them into projects, e.g. what Aaronpk and I have done
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tantek.com edited /User:Tantek.com (+40) "/* my indie web projects */ local wiki links for all projects" (view diff)
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tantek this is a good reminder to clean mine up too
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: so for example, my to dos / itches got clustered into projects: http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Tantek.com#my_indie_web_projects
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tantek and then inside those, e.g. Falcon, I've clustered "Working On" (semi)prioritized tasks and "Itching" after that: http://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon#Working_On
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: I see why you had a hard time finding me. Alphabetical list is not so alphabetical
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tantek heh - please help fix :)
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ben_thatmustbeme Also, thanks, I'll certainly make use of my wiki page more for these type of things
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ben_thatmustbeme I was about it
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /IRC_People (+0) (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme s/it/to/
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: I was about to
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: awesome!
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aaronpk this is an interesting problem... if there is no uid or url in an h-entry, what should be a unique identifier?
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /User:Ben.thatmustbe.me (+2230) (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk - is it an interesting problem? sounds theoretical - or did you have an example URL? ;)
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aaronpk url incoming
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tantek in which case, leave me a tell to try writing up an /permalink-discovery algorithm :)
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aaronparecki.com edited /mention-app (+793) (view diff)
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tantek I'm off kbd for a bit.
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aaronpk http://indiewebcamp.com/mention-app#h-feed_parsing
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aaronpk "In order to avoid sending repeated notifications for the same mentions, the uid used for de-duplication will be..."
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kylewm.com edited /User:Kylewm.com (+380) "/* Todo */" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /User:Kylewm.com (+3) "/* My project */" (view diff)
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KevinMarks_ aaronpk - the url of the containing page plus the id of the h-entry?
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KevinMarks_ (if it has an HTML id)
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@benwerd @stef Can I convince you to use mf2 events markup on attending.io? (I'd ask for webmention but that's pushing the boat out a little far.) (twitter.com/_/status/448899835983179776)
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ben_thatmustbeme i could see that not working for a home page feed
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ben_thatmustbeme content changing often but the ID would remain the same
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KevinMarks_ a hash of the json will reping if edited
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aaronpk KevinMarks_: I wasn't always seeing an id for entries
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KevinMarks_ no, not always, but often enough that ti makes sense as a fallback
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aaronpk Another option is to require an id or URL for an gentry for it to be valid
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ben_thatmustbeme i don't know the use case for this, but i'd guess you could always just use the hack of the json as the ID then
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aaronpk And I wouldn't send a notification if missing
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KevinMarks_ hm. Blogger seems to have removed my microformats and added microdata: view-source:http://epeus.blogspot.com/2004_03_01_archive.html
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KevinMarks_ oh hanfg on the microfomrats are still there
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KevinMarks_ but defintiely microdata has been added
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cweiske aaronpk, tantek - how do I find out which of two sites is the "canonical" homepage of someone, if both link to each other with rel=me? A rel=me to B, B rel=me to A
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aaronpk I suppose one might point to the other with rel=canonical?
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cweiske rel=canonical has a different definition by google
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cweiske but imagine twitter and your homepage
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cweiske twitter rel=me to your homepage
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cweiske your homepage has a rel=me to twitter
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aaronpk so far this hasn't come up as a problem because I'm always working with user-entered data
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aaronpk e.g. user enters "aaronparecki.com" in the login prompt, so I treat that as the canonical
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cweiske I'm maintaining a self-hosted bookmarking software, semanticscuttle
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cweiske now when someone bookmarks a page, I'd like to mark them up with microformats, including h-card
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cweiske the h-card will link to the user's profile page on the service, so that people can view other bookmarks by this user
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cweiske now if I send a webmention to the bookmarked site, this site could link to the user's profile page
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cweiske but it'd be cool if it would also link to the user's homepage
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cweiske and show the user's avatar from his homepage
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /IndieAuth (+76) "/* Why is Google+ not working */" (view diff)
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gRegor` Chapter 10 in Twitter Wishes it Was Facebook
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gRegor` Tagging of people in photos.
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gRegor` And up to four photos in a tweet now.
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_6a68 wat
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gRegor` You can disable yourself from being tagged under Settings > Privacy, FYI
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tantek.com edited /reader (+517) "challenge: missing good stuff, possible side effect of overload" (view diff)
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gRegor` Interesting. The Million Dollar Homepage still exists, but 22% is link rot now. http://qz.com/191794/the-million-dollar-homepage-still-exists-but-22-of-it-has-rotted-away/
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demisflanagan.com edited /projects (+7) "/* idno */" (view diff)
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tantek checks the scrollback
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tantek aaronpk, re: h-entry without url or uid - I mean a link to an actual such h-entry. I'm claiming it's a theoretical problem until you've found such an example in the wild.
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tantek rather than a link to just a description of the same theoretical problem.
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tantek re: "require an id or URL for an h-entry for it to be valid" - nope, went down that path with a lot of original microformats and it just resulted in "support requests"
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tantek this is why *every* property is optional in microformats2
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tantek experience has shown that any such requirement in formats are ways of making those formats both harder to support, and more fragile/annoying/inefficient. Atom is another example of this.
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tantek it requires seconds level precision in datetimes, e.g. publishing, which is forced artificial precision.
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tantek nevermind the required attributes/elements themselves
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tantek KevinMarks, so you don't have control over your Blogger templates? they can just mess with them as they like?
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tantek That seems much worse than Tumblr.
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tantek.com edited /Blogger (+7) "add explicit TOC under logo" (view diff)
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tantek and should likely be captured as an issue / criticism here: http://indiewebcamp.com/Blogger
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KartikPrabhu tantek: afaik you can just write your own template in Blogger
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tantek KartikPrabhu: I think KevinMarks did write his own template, and thus added microformats.
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tantek But it sounds like they messed with that
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tantek hence why I asked KevinMarks to add it as an issue: http://indiewebcamp.com/Blogger#Issues
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tantek but if you know more about that - please add it to the /Blogger page too
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KevinMarks_ I changed the defualt Blogger template to have microformats ages ago
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KevinMarks_ looks like someone added microdata
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_: link?
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KartikPrabhu if I may
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tantek !tell cweiske re: rel=me identity consolidation and primary home page discovery, I believe identengine helps with this: http://glennjones.net/articles/2009-09-20-ident-engine-o-google-code
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KevinMarks_ epeus.blogspot.com is my blog
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cweiske but i'm here
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KevinMarks_ haven't investigated details yet
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Loqi cweiske: tantek left you a message 23 seconds ago: re: rel=me identity consolidation and primary home page discovery, I believe identengine helps with this: http://glennjones.net/articles/2009-09-20-ident-engine-o-google-code
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tantek gRegor`: only 22%?!? I'm pretty surprised. I would have expected the opposite. Only 22% survival.
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_: I can confirm that. They also added microdata to my old blog here: http://paralleltransport.blogspot.com/
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KartikPrabhu tantek: on the subject of Blogger, what do you think of their multi-choice UI for blogs? example: http://exptdesign.blogspot.com/
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KartikPrabhu top left menu list
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tantek KartikPrabhu: feels gimmicky, like one of those things people did with their blogs in the early to mid 2000s. Seems like a dated UI element, and thus currently clutter.
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tantek why bother a user with such toys?
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KartikPrabhu agreed. but some of those on their own might be good for certain kinds of posts
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KartikPrabhu without the whole "change this" gimmick
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tantek these days there seems to be much more of a focus on highly responsive design / UIs which work beautifully by default across devices.
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KevinMarks_ those are interesting, but they're very js-heavy
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KevinMarks_ do thye work on mobile now?
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tantek the ONLY exception I can think of for such a "change theme" UI is for accessibility
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KevinMarks_ they used to just crap out and show nothing
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tantek e.g. high contrast, inverted contrast etc.
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tantek yes. less JS. especially for such gimmicks.
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KartikPrabhu yeah agree with the JS jeavy bit...
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KartikPrabhu and if some piece of JS does nt load you get nothing
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KartikPrabhu haha seems on mobile you by default get a single UI no changy buisness
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KartikPrabhu In wonder if these fancy gimmick ones can be adapted better for blogs. Like the flipcard-type with filters on top would be good for an archive page eg: http://exptdesign.blogspot.com/?view=flipcard
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gRegor` Tumblr does those style archives better, IMO.
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gRegor` E.g. http://rachelskirts.tumblr.com/archive
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cweiske !tell snarfed: linkback to my website failed (https://www.brid.gy/twitter/kyle_wm), could you re-run it? I tried to fix it
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KartikPrabhu Gregor` yeah just saw a tumblr arcive i knew and i agree
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KartikPrabhu also pardon my capitalisation :)
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KevinMarks_ I think they were an intern project
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gRegor` Hehe, no worries
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gRegor` I took inspiration for my own archives from tumblr, though more orderly and only the headlines - no preview. http://gregorlove.com/archives
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tantek yes, Tumblr does a lot of nice UI/UX stuff that we can learn from
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tantek gRegor`: re: twitter photos and people tagging - what?!? URL please?
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KartikPrabhu gRegor`++ I like that the box density gives a clear visual of how active you were in that time
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KartikPrabhu gRegor`++
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gRegor` tantek: https://blog.twitter.com/2014/photos-just-got-more-social
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KartikPrabhu hey where you at Loqi?
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gRegor` Doesn't work because of the backtick, I believe.
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gRegor` But aaronpk fixed the tell for me earlier today, so that works. :)
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gRegor` I like that, too, though it also reveals how infrequently I write. :)
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gRegor` I did much better in 2013 than 2012, at least. Now to keep it up.
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KartikPrabhu i think that is fine. Blogs/site don't have to be updated regularly. don't understand how that got into peopls heads
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gRegor` Yeah. I'm not one to feel like I'm obligated to post more often. I just want to. I have drafts of things, just need to spend the time to finish them.
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gRegor` Been pretty into indieweb stuff lately, so no complaints there really.
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KevinMarks_ you know you cna force those views on any blogger blog?
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KartikPrabhu well I have an archive page by year and some of the early years have only one post :P but that's mainly becaue I haven't still moved everythogn form my old blog
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_ yup
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tantek gRegor`: wow. just wow. I get the people-tagging, I mean, I feel like that's an obvious "social" feature to compete with FB/IG.
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tantek but why include up to FOUR photos? that seems like the opposite of the IG bite-size content UI
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gRegor` Yeah, no clue.
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gRegor` None of it makes sense to me, heh
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tantek oh, collage, ok. I guess people do that sort of thing, sometimes. Not sure it was worth it as a base feature.
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tantek ironic, Twitter's blog has "Browse by date" but your Tweets don't ;)
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gRegor` Flickr, Instagram, or whatever other photo apps one may like . . . seem to work fine. Why does Twitter need their own? Why'd they have to make it so difficult to view those others on Twitter? Used to work fine...
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tantek also, Twitter's blog has "Browse by tag" but your tweets don't have "Browse by hashtag"
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gRegor` Historically I've loved Twitter for its simplicity. Now it seems it's just trying to be everything. Probably to make money, I guess? I dunno
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KevinMarks_ they do if you download
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tantek well it's clear that their photo feature is trying to target IG
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tantek and thus indirectly FB
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tantek the Ellen photo (retweeted around the world) was a huge victory for them
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tantek I'm supposing that after that, they may have bumped up priority of photo features (likely these were already in the pipe)
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tantek ok well, I guess we have another post type to consider besides "photo", the "collage"
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gRegor` True. I guess they'd much rather that photo have their URL than twitpic or something else
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tantek wonders if benwerd is going to rise to the challenge and implement "up to 4 photo posting in a note" in idno
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gRegor` Haha
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tantek the people tagging thing is pretty huge though
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gRegor` Make it up to 5, benwerd. We'll show them.
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tantek hahaha totally
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cweiske !tell snarfed it worked since bridgy tried after 1 hour again
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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gRegor` Maybe I'm just set in my ways. I fell in love with Twitter because it was like group chat with all my friends, plus anyone else on the internet that wanted to join. And I largely use it the same way. So these additional features are just things for me to turn off. :)
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tantek taking / posting / tagging photos of people is one of the biggest uses/draws of FB
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tantek so when Twitter implements "photos of {user}" as a feature (you know that is coming) then you'll know they're on that path
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gRegor` Yep
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tantek gRegor`: I tend to agree with your ways. :)
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tantek they're inching towards becoming FB-lite
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tantek which isn't necessarily a bad thing, it's just not what a lot of us think of as "Twitter"
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KevinMarks_ they have been emphasising the photos more
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KevinMarks_ the default profile page now has 3 tweets and 4 photos
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@jjmajava @davewiner Yes, the blog format needs some shaking up. Interesting stuff happening under the #indieweb banner also. (twitter.com/_/status/448957771602751488)
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gRegor` Ok, I'm about ready to make a bit of javascript to skip the t.co link and go directly to the displayed URL. t.co can be so slow sometimes.
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KevinMarks_ especially on android
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KevinMarks_ though less so on firefox than on chrome
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gRegor` Interesting. I was not aware of http://longurl.org/api
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pdurbin huh. that tweet from Loqi... a link to http://scripting.com/2014/03/15/indiewebAndRss.html
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Loqi who, me?
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pdurbin "If the people who call themselves the Indieweb can get uptake for the formats they would like to replace RSS with, then everyone will support them."
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KartikPrabhu gRegor` interesting. good for testing incoming links?
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KartikPrabhu pdurbin: dave winer's comments have probably been beaten to death on this irc
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gRegor` Haha, yep
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gRegor` Not sure. Useful for expanding short links pulled in via tweets is one use case I can think of
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pdurbin KartikPrabhu: oh. sorry. can you link me to where in the logs?
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KartikPrabhu hmm will try
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pdurbin thanks
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KartikPrabhu is the full irc log searchable?
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KartikPrabhu should bookmark such things
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KartikPrabhu tantek: anyway to search irc logs. On the alternative: do you have bookmarked inks for the whole dave winer discussion?
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KevinMarks_ KartikPrabhu: you cna use google
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KartikPrabhu ooh
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KevinMarks_ https://www.google.com/search?q=winer+site%3Aindiewebcamp.com+inurl%3Airc&oq=winer+site%3Aindiewebcamp.com+inurl%3Airc
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KevinMarks_ the inurl: operator is very handy
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KartikPrabhu pdurbin: it all begins about here: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-03-15/line/1394889835 but there is no long coherent discussion. It just happened sporadically on the channel
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KartikPrabhu i recall bret trying to respond to him and getting his comment deleted maybe he has logs of his interaction (the gist seems to be deleted)
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pdurbin KartikPrabhu: yeah, I'd say all of http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-03-15 is a good starting point for me. makes sense. same day winer published his thing
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KartikPrabhu cc: bret about dave winer
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pdurbin bret: dave winer deleted your comment?!
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KevinMarks_ at least he didn't phone your employer and demand that you were fired
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KartikPrabhu wait what!
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KevinMarks_ that was when I was at Technorati
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KartikPrabhu oh man!
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KartikPrabhu thought all devs were nice people :P
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KevinMarks_ you saw his comment about JSON -he likes hyperbole
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kylewm bret's reply was here http://bret.io/2014/03/15/re-dave-winer/
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: in the irc logs the time usually permalinks to the line but for tweets it permalinks to the actual tweet. Makes it hard to refer to that actual line
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KartikPrabhu of course hard in the sense of #firstworldproblems
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pdurbin kylewm: thanks!
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pdurbin bret: great comment. shame it was deleted
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kylewm I think dave took issue with the statement that "RSS is in a sad state"
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kylewm his response was kinda hostile...
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pdurbin we have so much in common
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gRegor` The page in question was subsequently edited, btw.
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pdurbin KevinMarks_: heh. dave winer blocks you on twitter. what did you say to him?
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KevinMarks_ no idea
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gRegor` And tantek, snarfed were going to talk about other updates to it to capture the idea / current state of affairs better.
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gRegor` Dave had me blocked for a while. I think it was over something political I said to him. I don't even remember
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bret All I have to say about rss/atom is that an h-Feed to atom gateway is going to happen
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gRegor` bret: Sandeep already has one, I thought.
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gRegor` bret: http://www.sandeep.io/98
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pdurbin KevinMarks_: great (though old) quote... "Winer on JSON" :)
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bret gRegor`: I was having issues with that a while back. Need to see how far he got on it
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bret Afaik it wasn't ever competed? Maybe it's just a matter of contributing some code
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kylewm bret: there's also http://waterpigs.co.uk/services/microformats-to-atom/ if you missed it
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pdurbin aaronpk: wow, like you said, winer's "Silicon Valley is made up of little boys pulling their puds, constantly making love to each other, pretending the world revolves around them." ... crazy :(
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pdurbin maybe I have less in common with Winer than I thought... he also had some weird comments about women in technology a few months ago
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kylewm s/months/days
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KevinMarks_ thats an old debate: http://epeus.blogspot.com/2008/12/cycling-to-new-layers-of-freedom.html
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aaronpk pdurbin: I said that?
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KevinMarks This post could be predicting indieweb giving up on feeds http://scripting.com/stories/2008/12/04/soonItWillBeTimeToStartOve.html
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aaronpk "The trick in each cycle is to fight complexity"
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pdurbin aaronpk: you asked it it was for real: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-03-15/line/1394911654 ... sad that it was, that Winer actually wrote that :(
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pdurbin s/it/if/
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Loqi pdurbin meant to say: aaronpk: you asked if if was for real: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-03-15/line/1394911654 ... sad that if was, that Winer actually wrote that :(
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pdurbin heh
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pdurbin s/if was/it was/
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aaronpk tantek: bridgy h-entries are the thing I'm talking about