#indiewebcamp 2014-03-30

2014-03-30 UTC
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KevinMarks kbs: when we set up the Google social graph api, I used my own site in the example text
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KevinMarks this means that loads of spammers and people with poor reading skills have rel="me" links pointing to my site
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kbs heh :-)
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kbs is a suspicious old fart, and the brain first leaps to the most pessimistic side of how software works...
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: are you around?
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KartikPrabhu yup!
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KartikPrabhu should get a good away marking for irc client
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kylewm oh you know, I'm using emacs ERC, and I'm not entirely sure how to see if someone is away or not... I just did a /whois
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kylewm I was looking at the simplify-tree-traversal thing just now, have a proposed solution
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KartikPrabhu very nice... move to a DM?
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: My Django month problem somehow automatically fixed itself on my local machine!
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KartikPrabhu now I don't know how to fix it on my server! any insights?
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kylewm I'll quote myself re: a twitter API problem I was having last week "The only thing worse than things that don't work are things that start working for no reason."
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kylewm :)
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KartikPrabhu lol! true...
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kylewm really sorry, I have no idea what to even try :(
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KartikPrabhu I am suspecting some sort of cache thing, but i thought a server restart should've fixed that
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KevinMarks things that stop working too
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KevinMarks I can't work out why noterlive won't run on heroku any more since I took a pull request
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KevinMarks as it runs for the chap who sent it
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KartikPrabhu well I gave up on fixing it at the moment. Short urls are not a priority right now for me
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: that nicely passes both the test I had with multiple KP type names and also the bug you filed about similar nodes being ignored! I assume your automated tester tested other test cases?
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kylewm oh great, I added another commit about 5 minutes that fixed some python2.6 errors, but after that travis-ci started passing on the automated tests
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kylewm https://travis-ci.org/kylewm/mf2py/builds/21854124
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KartikPrabhu nice! could you remove the print statements and add to the PR? or I can do those
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kylewm I commented them out, want to remove altogetehr?
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KartikPrabhu oh in the latest one?
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kylewm I'll remove and squash down to one commit, one sec
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KartikPrabhu nice! PR accepted into simple_traversal. will merge with main branch
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KartikPrabhu good job!
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kylewm thanks!
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: adding you and myself to the Authors list nay particular email/website you want on there?
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kylewm oh that's nice of you, but you don't need to add me unless you particularly want to
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kylewm kyle@kylewm.com and kylewm.com if you do ;)
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KartikPrabhu yeah well you did contribute quite a bit. I am just adding myself too :P
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KartikPrabhu added!
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equivalentideas Hey everyone, I'm new here :) decided to finally work out IRC after watching caseorganic's presentation about #indiewebcamp . I've got a question about jekyll sites hosted on github. I don't control github so I assume this setup doesn't fit the indie web principles. Are there issues with implementing the basic indie web tools like posse and web mentions without a database? I'm considering moving my website http://equivalentid
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aaronpk equivalentideas: welcome!
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aaronpk equivalentideas: your message got cut off at your website address
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aaronpk but, there are several people here who host their site on github pages
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equivalentideas 2/2 off github to some of my hosting, and rebuilding in ruby as a learning exercise . I just wanted to check with the camp that I wasn't on totally the wrong track. Thanks all! p.s. please let me know if this isn't the type of discussion for this medium, again, I'm new here.
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equivalentideas Do messages get cut off if you waffle on?
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KartikPrabhu equivalentideas: welcome! there is no problem with you using Github pages or with using a non-database, flat-file solution...
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KartikPrabhu I think there is a length limit on messages
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aaronpk IRC has a max length on messages, I don't know what it is
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equivalentideas That's interesting. Is the idea that presumably you have a backup locally because you're using git? So if github goes away you lose nothing?
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aaronpk the idea is that as long as you own the URL (it's on your own domain, not github.io) you can move the backend to somethign else if you need to
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KartikPrabhu there is always a problem with your host disappearing... and what aaronpk said ^^
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KartikPrabhu also it would seem that non-databases are more robust and encouraged according to: http://indiewebcamp.com/databases-antipattern
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KartikPrabhu equivalentideas: are you at http://equivalentideas.com/ ?
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equivalentideas that's me :)
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KartikPrabhu I like the nice and clean design. :)
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equivalentideas :P
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equivalentideas IRC is a success!
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kylewm there are lots of fun engineering challenges with a static site too. don't feel like you have to build from scratch to have something to play with
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equivalentideas The database thing is very interesting to me. With things like comments etc. can that data and relationships be stored as text in json or something?
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aaronpk I like YAML for that purpose, because you can append to a YAML file without reading it in and parsing it
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aaronpk I have a webmentions.yml file which I just append things to. at some point i'll probably partition it by year or by month, but for now it's just one file.
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kylewm 's mind is blown
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kylewm always thought yaml was dumb but that is a huge advantage!
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aaronpk it's also more human-friendly than JSON
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KartikPrabhu mind is blown too! will consider that for my move to flat files for data storage
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equivalentideas have you got a link to that webmentions.yml file aaronpk ?
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KartikPrabhu equivalentideas: I recommend starting by implementing IndieAuth http://indiewebcamp.com/indieauth so you can sign-in and contribute to the wiki
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aaronpk apparently I should do a short blog post about that
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KartikPrabhu short blog post = yes please :D
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equivalentideas definitely
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aaronpk no it's not documented anywhere online yet. I do have a sample of how I store actual posts on disk tho: https://github.com/aaronpk/p3k/issues/1
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kylewm I'm curious how you xreference comments too if you need blog fodder ;-)
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kylewm though I think you outlined it in the issue you linked to this morning
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equivalentideas I'll get indieauth up today, I've already got all the rel="me" implemented as just a standard microformats thing.
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tantek.com edited /feed_reader (+597) "move Post Google Reader Readers to this page since they're specifically feed readers, not integrated indieweb readers" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /reader (-480) "explicit note at top about legacy feed readers, move Google Reader alternatives to legacy "feed reader" page" (view diff)
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tantek good evening indiewebcamp! seems like a nice chill day today.
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KartikPrabhu evening tantek
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tantek did anyone here use Readmill?
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aaronpk been a relaxing day. lots of p3k internal refactoring to make it easier to make changes!
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equivalentideas Yep I used readmill a lot
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tantek equivalentideas: you know it's being shut down right?
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tantek in case you want to export...
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tantek.com edited /site-deaths (+723) "2014-07-01 Readmilll shut down coming, note what is being lost, link to export" (view diff)
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths#Readmill
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equivalentideas yeah I know :S It's a bummer. I've been wanting to set up a scraps or highlights system on my domain for a while for capturing highlights/quotes from texts to my own collection. I found readmiller (http://www.disobey.com/detergent/code/readmilling/scripts/user-updates.php?username=Equivalentideas&rss=1) which helped get a bunch of stuff out.
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tantek off to dinner - hope any users of Readmill can export their data.
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tantek and maybe post snippets of exports? it would be interesting to see what types of formats are being used for all the types of data they claim to export
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tantek maybe we can figure out indieweb equivalents, so you can publish them on your own site
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tantek.com created /Readmill (+356) "stb" (view diff)
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tantek equivalentideas: maybe add some info here? http://indiewebcamp.com/Readmill#Exports
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equivalentideas "highlights": [
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equivalentideas {
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equivalentideas "content": "The Journalist too, would not believe at any price, and joined the Editor in the easy work of heaping ridicule on the whole thing. They were both the new kind of journalist—very joyous, irreverent young men.",
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equivalentideas "position": 0.162775,
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equivalentideas "highlighted_at": "2013-06-27T10:51:37Z",
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equivalentideas "locators": {
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equivalentideas "pre": "lothes-brushes in the Future? ",
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equivalentideas "mid": "The Journalist too, would not believe at any price, and joined the Editor in the easy work of heaping ridicule on the whole thing. They were both the new kind of journalist—very joyous, irreverent young men.",
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equivalentideas "post": " 'Our Special Correspondent in",
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equivalentideas "position": 0.16277533769607544
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equivalentideas },
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equivalentideas "comments_count": 0,
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equivalentideas "comments": [
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equivalentideas ]
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tantek.com edited /site-deaths (+4) "/* Upcoming */ linky" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /site-deaths (-1) "-l" (view diff)
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tantek yeah - can you add that in a <pre> block on the page? http://indiewebcamp.com/Readmill#Exports
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tantek equivalentideas: ^^^
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tantek dinner time. bbiab!
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equivalentideas the data export outputs .zip archive with .txt .json .xml plus a bunch of assets. I'll chuck it up there a little later.
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: just played a biut with pyyaml... looks perfect for rehashing my webmentions!
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KartikPrabhu s/buit/bit
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KartikPrabhu i.e. YAML for Python
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aaronpk great!
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KartikPrabhu has anyone thought of a "u-dislike-of" ?
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: definitely. not sure about indieweb specifically, but in tech products in general, it's a common debate
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KartikPrabhu i think it is weird that people can like your posts but not dislike it
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snarfed yeah, it's a product/ux decision
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snarfed most products don't have it because it's negative, but some do. they often call it a downvote or something similar
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snarfed as for standards, e.g. activitystreams does have a dislike verb as well as like
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KartikPrabhu i see!
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bret I think sandeep (maybe?) had an interesting observation about likes/dislikes
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KartikPrabhu i might support it when I revamp webmentions
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bret trying to find it
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KartikPrabhu yes. I am definitely looking for others thoughts. would be useful bret
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bret how people confuse it between I like this, i dislike this and I want to promote this peice of content vs I want this to disappear
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KartikPrabhu my thought was that this lack of dislike option promotes a biased view
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bret I miss sandeep :( whats he up to?
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aaronpk I can't think of a situation where if I dislike something I a) want to link to it from my site and b) the target of my dislike would like to advertise the fact I dislike the thing
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KartikPrabhu yes. but is that not a huge bias?
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KartikPrabhu as in I can always choose to represent comments that say nice things
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KartikPrabhu you might dislike something and have a critique you post on your site
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KartikPrabhu maybe tantek does a dislike RSS post :P
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aaronpk I'm saying I can't think of a situation I would like to publicly state that I dislike something
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aaronpk If I dislike something I usually just don't talk about it
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KartikPrabhu hmm
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aaronpk Otherwise it draws too much attention to the thing
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aaronpk And I would rather it just go away
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aaronpk This is not unique to the online space either, I do this in real life
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aaronpk If I don't like something or someone I would rather just have no affiliation
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equivalentideas I can think of situations where you're a stakeholder in an entity and want to publicly disapprove of a policy or suggestion for a policy of that entity. You wouldn't want to ignore it because if the suggestion comes to pass, you lose out in some way.
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bret John maus on disliking: http://youtu.be/DnMfKacI9AY?t=23m33s
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equivalentideas That John Maus interview is really relevant. 'only talk about it if there
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equivalentideas s something interesting
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equivalentideas could be positive or negative.
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equivalentideas I'm very new to this, but it seems that if these kinds of technologies can emphasise or support 'constructive' or 'informed' discussion, they should. But I'm not sure if that's their role? Though only supporting 'likes' not 'dislikes' seems to be likewise an opinionated approach.
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KartikPrabhu agrees with equivalentideas on the opinionated part
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: if some one removes a fav from a tweet does Bridgy send a mention?
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: sadly no, not yet. feel free to vote for https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/9
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KartikPrabhu I feel people use favourite on twitteras a means to bookmark to read later...
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KartikPrabhu *some people
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: definitely! there's some discussion of that vs liking on /favorite
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snarfed fortunately, using twitter for that should still work fine after un-favoriting, whether or not bridgy sends a new webmention
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KartikPrabhu true
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: updated mf2py with some sleeker tree parsing with kylewm... passes all our tests but would appreciate it if you stress tested it with Bridgy
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snarfed sure! i'll run the bridgy tests now
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snarfed KartikPrabhu, kylewm: activitystreams-unofficial and bridgy tests pass with the new mf2py changes. deploying now.
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KartikPrabhu sweet!
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KevinMarks dislike of is a vote link against
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: true... but is there a standard way to respond as such? simialr to "u-like-of"
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KevinMarks well, we wrote this up a while ago, btu it is problematic: http://microformats.org/wiki/votelinks
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KevinMarks 'cos rev is deprecated
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KartikPrabhu i see... there is no mf2 attempt to replicate voting either afaik
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KartikPrabhu could be simialr to rsvp with yes, no, maybe type values
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KevinMarks vote links were broadly unsucessful - rel="nofollow" took off rather than rev="vote-abstain"
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KevinMarks Google didn't like vote-against because pagerank doesn't converge with negative lnks
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KevinMarks see http://epeus.blogspot.com/search?q=vote+links for the original proposal
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KevinMarks and related posts
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KevinMarks when I tried counting votes from blogs, it was clear that liberals were using it more than conservatives https://web.archive.org/web/20041113033724/http://technorati.com/live/votes.html
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KartikPrabhu using the vote feature?
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KartikPrabhu there also seem to be people who double voted
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KevinMarks well, they could vote for and vote against
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KartikPrabhu interesting...
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KartikPrabhu do folks store the full contents of all the mentions they receive?
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KevinMarks so looks lie we only had <700 votes ever: https://web.archive.org/web/20050305025253/http://www.technorati.com/live/votes.html
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KartikPrabhu hmm
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KevinMarks is this the prcursor to evil tantek? https://web.archive.org/web/20050206123637/http://mostevil.blogspot.com/
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caseorganic KevinMarks++
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Loqi KevinMarks has 14 karma
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KevinMarks what did I do now?
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caseorganic KevinMarks: precursor to eviltantek ^^
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caseorganic KevinMarks: hello from japan!
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KartikPrabhu is http://adactio.com/ down for anyone else?
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Loqi [mention] http://caseorganic.com/articles/2014/03/27/1/harvard-s-berkman-center-for-internet-and-society-to-host-indiewebcamp-oct-2014 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://caseorganic.com/articles/2014/03/27/1/harvard-s-berkman-center-for-internet-and-society-to-host-indiewebcamp-oct-2014 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Cambridge (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://caseorganic.com/articles/2014/03/27/1/harvard-s-berkman-center-for-internet-and-society-to-host-indiewebcamp-oct-2014 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Cambridge/Guest_List (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://caseorganic.com/articles/2014/03/27/1/harvard-s-berkman-center-for-internet-and-society-to-host-indiewebcamp-oct-2014 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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tantek.com edited /Readmill (+50) "sample data" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Readmill (+83) "file types" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] http://caseorganic.com/articles/2014/03/27/1/harvard-s-berkman-center-for-internet-and-society-to-host-indiewebcamp-oct-11-12-2014 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://caseorganic.com/articles/2014/03/27/1/harvard-s-berkman-center-for-internet-and-society-to-host-indiewebcamp-oct-11-12-2014 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Cambridge (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://caseorganic.com/articles/2014/03/27/1/harvard-s-berkman-center-for-internet-and-society-to-host-indiewebcamp-oct-11-12-2014 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Cambridge/Guest_List (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://caseorganic.com/articles/2014/03/27/1/harvard-s-berkman-center-for-internet-and-society-to-host-indiewebcamp-oct-11-12-2014 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://caseorganic.com/articles/2014/02/27/1/i-m-not-going-to-sxsw-this-year linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/SF (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://caseorganic.com/articles/2014/02/27/1/i-m-not-going-to-sxsw-this-year linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/SF (webmention)
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KevinMarks is trying out s3 static hosting
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KartikPrabhu just moved all comments to yaml files for storing :)
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@rtaibah The IndieWeb, Revolution, and Other Reasons You Should Learn to Code http://electricabacus.wordpress.com/2014/03/25/the-indieweb-revolution-and-other-reasons-you-should-learn-to-code/ (twitter.com/_/status/450190477849939968)
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jjuran aaronpk: The poster who provided the answer about relative redirections is clearly 'elite'. ;-)
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rtaibah Hi there, I am Rami. Just starting with the indieweb at http://rtaibah.com I am setting up indieauth right now. For some reason its failing with Twitter and Google. Github, SMS, and E-mail is working.
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pdurbin rtaibah: I wonder why indieauth works with github on your domain but not mine: http://greptilian.com
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pdurbin oh wait, now it's working... great! I was getting this: RelParser::InsecureRedirectError at /auth/start
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rtaibah rtaibah you needed to have an ssl link?
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pdurbin I already did. I didn't change anything on my end.
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greptilian.com edited /2014/Cambridge/Guest_List (+316) "/* Creators */ added Philip Durbin (greptilian.com) as a tentative attendee" (view diff)
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@schnarfed @dewitt condolences, @itafroma. obligatory: #indieweb (https://snarfed.org/2014-03-30_8682) (twitter.com/_/status/450266028753182720)
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@jalbertbowdenii @tswicegood its inevitable. bring on http://t.co/GVeEwLlG1s. indieweb. open web. death to silos. (twitter.com/_/status/450280100584771584)
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kylewm hi rtaibah, welcome! indieauth <-> Twitter is a known problem, something about them giving ssl errors on their side. for Google, the G+ link on your site 404's for me
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kylewm does one have to be logged in?
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rtaibah kylewm: Dang, got the wrong link up there. Should’ve been plus.google.com not profile.google.com In any case, indieauth is still not working.
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kylewm not working at all, or not working with G+?
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rtaibah kylewm: not working G+
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kylewm mmm if you already had IndieAuth rescan with the new plus.google.com link, I'm out of ideas :/
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kbs rtaibah: hm - I don't actually see a rel=me pointing back to rtaibah.com from plus.google.com
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rtaibah kbs I should insert html in the Google settings page? As opposed to a straight link
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kbs rtaibah: I don't remember exactly where it goes in the g+ settings, but essentially yea. http://pastebin.com/DgxL3QmL
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kbs (that pastebin shows the rel=me links from your g+ page - when that contains your main site, then life becomes good)
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kbs I don't think you need to enter html - I think it needs to go in a specific place in g+ ... let me check
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rtaibah kbs yeah Google does not accept that in its settings page
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kbs oh, not under your links -- it goes under your other profiles
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kbs it's a different section of your profile page
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kbs rtaibah: also test with http://www.google.com/webmasters/tools/richsnippets?q=https%3A%2F%2Fplus.google.com%2F%2BRamiTaibah when you've got your changes figured out [scroll down to the xfn section, and verify that your main site is present as a "me"] hope all that makes sense :)
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barnabywalters you can also check rel-me links by using indiewebify.me, e.g. http://indiewebify.me/validate-rel-me/?url=http%3A%2F%2Frtaibah.com%2F
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kbs oh, nice - thanks barnabywalters
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kbs much much nicer :)
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rtaibah kbs it does make sense, the trick is how add the tag on G+. barnabywalters thats awesome. I guess I am level 1 already :)
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barnabywalters rtaibah: yay! looks like you should be able to log in using persona or github, at least
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Loqi does a happy dance!
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rtaibah Yup. Its not a big concern. Just thought I was doing something wrong.
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rtaibah Should I add this stuff also on subfolders? For example I have a wordpress blog on rtaibah.com/blog should I add that there too?
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kbs rtaibah: ah, I think you just need to add your link on g+ to the section that says "other profiles", rather than the section that says "links".
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barnabywalters rtaibah: rel=me literally means “this URL is considered “me””, so you should use it to link together URLs which are your identities on the web
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barnabywalters e.g. homepage, twitter page, etc.
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barnabywalters basically, “would I log in as this URL?” if so, add rel=me. if not, it’s probably unnecessary
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rtaibah kbs. Yes that worked!
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kbs rtaibah: cool :)
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rtaibah barnabywalters: understood. What about hcard? I mean I am just trying to understand how all this would work in the situation of having multiple subfolders/subdomains. Bear with me :)
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rtaibah kbs thanks
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barnabywalters rtaibah: nice work! you should mention that on the http://indiewebcamp.com/Google+ page
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barnabywalters rtaibah: basically anywhere you think it makes sense to put your contact information, mark it up with h-card
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barnabywalters it’s certainly a good idea to have one on your homepage
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barnabywalters because then for example when you log in to a service with that URL, the service can fetch the h-card and automatically figure out your name, photo, etc
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barnabywalters I think bridgy does this
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rtaibah I have it now but have a “display:none” in there. Should it be for human consumption or sites talking to each ohter?
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rtaibah scratch that. That was a stupid Q
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barnabywalters rtaibah: entirely up to you — it is convention to have a human-visible profile on your homepage
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barnabywalters so that people can see who you are :)
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snarfed barnabywalters++
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Loqi barnabywalters has 33 karma
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rtaibah thanks barnabywalters ++
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rtaibah kbs ++
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snarfed (for the "entirely up to you." opinions differ but i'm with you on that. e.g. i have a display-none'd picture in my homepage h-card)
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rtaibah thanks guys
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kbs barnabywalters: unrelated topic, since I think you're one of the few folks here that bother about openpgp :) what do you think of adding a pgp fingerprint on a linked rel=me profile page? [eg: g+/twitter etc]
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barnabywalters kbs: what would it allow people to do?
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kbs it would serve to add a confirming datum when they fetch a key
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kbs ie -> someone who can edit that twitter profile page confirms this is their key
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kbs as in indieauth, basically. I go to your page, get the key, follow rel=me links and confirm the fingerprint
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barnabywalters ah okay — yeah, that makes sense
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barnabywalters it would take up “valuable” profile space though
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kbs yes - an alternate would be a new rel type on a link to a tweet (say)
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kbs <a href="<thetweet>" rel="pgp-fingerprint">..</a>
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barnabywalters ah, okay — similar to how keybase does verification
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kbs same principle yes, but without keybase right
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kbs clients can elect the "confirming targets" of their choice, etc.
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kbs s/elect/select
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Loqi kbs meant to say: clients can select the "confirming targets" of their choice, etc.
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barnabywalters yeah that sounds like a good idea. if you want some test data I can post a note+syndicated to twitter with my fingerprint
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kbs great :)
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kbs [I have a little test setup myself, going to a gist (and my g+ rel=me page) at kbsriram.com]
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barnabywalters okay so should I link from my profile to that note, from which multiple syndicated copies could be checked
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barnabywalters http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4VKGAC/
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kbs yes - that would be the thinking. I've also started a place to brainstorm at http://indiewebcamp.com/pgp#Authentication - love to hear your thoughts on this
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barnabywalters kbs: okay, linked to that note from my homepage with rel=pgp-fingerprint
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kbs awesome :) thanks
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kbs I hadn't thought of having one place to consolidate the fingerprints - that's a neat idea, but trying to think how I can tie a note back to a canonical provider site
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kylewm !tell tantek did you play with irc:// urls when you were investigating for your blog post? e.g., irc://freenode.net/kylewm,isnick
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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kbs oh i see -- it has rel=syndication links, gotcha
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Loqi tantek: kylewm left you a message 1 hour, 14 minutes ago: did you play with irc:// urls when you were investigating for your blog post? e.g., irc://freenode.net/kylewm,isnick
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tantek kylewm - I tried some simple tests and even on desktop no-one supports those URLs, so gave up
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tantek rather, they're misimplemented, and sometimes just join the *channel* named kylewm
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tantek in practice irc: URLs only work for joining channels
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kylewm oh interesting, too bad
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tantek indeed
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@ubax Playing around #IndieAuth it seems, if you're using SMS Auth and have a persons cellphone, you can break-in much easily then other services. (twitter.com/_/status/450329791225675776)
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tantek aaronpk ^^^ perhaps we need to figure out 2-factor (or multifactor) indieauth
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aaronpk yeah probably
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aaronpk SMS auth right now is not 2-factor
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@ubax Though, that's an initial observation about #IndieAuth. And I'm hoping it isn't so simple. #IndieWeb #PT (twitter.com/_/status/450330618988339200)
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aaronparecki.com edited /2014/Cambridge/Guest_List (-48) "update projects" (view diff)
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@benwerd There's an #indiewebcamp at the Harvard Berkman Center this Fall. Totally awesome: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Cambridge (twitter.com/_/status/450354743408197632)
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Loqi [mention] http://werd.io/2014/theres-an-indiewebcamp-at-the-harvard-berkman-center-this-fall linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Cambridge (webmention)
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werd.io edited /2014/Cambridge/Guest_List (+240) "/* Creators */ You literally would have to fight me to keep me away from this." (view diff)
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bnvk aaronpk: ahoy
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/benwerd/450354743408197632/14099692 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Cambridge (webmention)
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brennannovak.com edited /2014/Cambridge/Guest_List (+335) "/* Creators */" (view diff)
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kbs I'm misunderstanding somethingh in the 'representative vcard' algorithm. Running it on (say) https://aaronparecki.com I get the wrong vcard. If someone kindly soul is interested in helping me figure this out, I'll paste some debugging snippets
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KartikPrabhu kbs: which algo link ?
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kbs KartikPrabhu: http://microformats.org/wiki/representative-hcard-parsing
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KartikPrabhu which one is it picking? aaronpk's h-card in the side bar does not pass either condition
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kbs well, when I run my implementation [which is clearly borked in some way] it falls into the final fallback - pick the first vcard. This vcard doesn't even have a fn element in it.
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kbs http://pastebin.com/3nnU2wN9 - I find 12 candidates, none of which pass either of the two tests.
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kbs I guess I should immediately reject vcards root entries that have no fn, at least [or whatever set of 'required' properties are needed?]
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/benwerd/450354743408197632/195863654 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Cambridge (webmention)
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KartikPrabhu according to the algo aaronpk does not seem to have a canonical hcard on that page
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KartikPrabhu I don't see anything wrong with your code wrt to just implementing the algo
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kbs well, in theory it falls back to the first vcard, no?
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KartikPrabhu hmm well the algo does not seem to say so
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KartikPrabhu and that could be pretty wrong
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KartikPrabhu it could pick up the vcard from some post that is not even aaron's
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kbs ah - I see what you mean. I was also looking at the two proposed implementations and assuming they were the same as the proposed algorithm.
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KartikPrabhu yeah i guess you could have a final fallback but using the first vcard is not reliable IMO
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kbs yeah, it's reliably unreliable on this page :-)
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KartikPrabhu i think it would be a any that has posts before site authors and posts from diff sources
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kbs indeed
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kbs thanks for looking at it - back to the drawing board here.
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KartikPrabhu np!
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kylewm kbs: there is an algorithm here that is less strict https://indiewebcamp.com/authorship
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snarfed SF people, I'm headed out in a bit to hack on indieweb stuff. probably going to bello in glen park, right next to the bart/muni (j church) station. feel free to join me!
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@brennannovak @janl ack, LAME!!! Re: the monoculture issue, yah we really need an #IndieWeb style standards based tools for events! (twitter.com/_/status/450378052565204992)
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equivalentideas Has anyone had issues setting up indie auth on a github hosted website?
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equivalentideas I just get a never ending >Authenticating as http://equivalentideas.com
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equivalentideas Finding rel="me" links on http://equivalentideas.com
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equivalentideas I think it could be a DNS related thing, to do with the way github redirects you. Not sure :S
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KartikPrabhu equivalentideas: maybe this will helpr - http://indiewebcamp.com/indieauth#Why_is_IndieAuth_and_GitHub_Pages_not_playing_nicely.3F
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equivalentideas That looks like the issue, thanks KartikPrabhu!
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KartikPrabhu equivalentideas: in my experience people here have very good documentation skills, so most questions already have a wiki page :P
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equivalentideas KartikPrabhu: I'll be sure to search there first next time ;)
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KartikPrabhu of course. and if you find something new add it to the wiki. well once you have indieauth running.
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equivalentideas That's the plan :) Thanks again, off to work.
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/benwerd/450354743408197632/450387112907788289 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Cambridge (webmention)
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aaronpk bnvk: hello!
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: it would be good if your "fav" and "repost" icons showed hover texts
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aaronpk hover text?
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aaronpk showing what?
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KartikPrabhu eh as in mouse-over the "star" says "likes" or somethign
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KartikPrabhu maybe it is obvious
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aaronpk i'm not a big fan of hover things. hover doesn't really exist on mobile.
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aaronpk so using the hover gesture on desktop means you either lose that functionality on mobile or you have to replace it with some other mobile-friendly gesture
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KartikPrabhu true. but aren't you asuming everyone understands those icons?
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KartikPrabhu and maybe they do in whcih case this is not an issue
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aaronpk on the permalink line that shows the date, I also show the "star" icon with text, so it says "(star) 8 likes"
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KartikPrabhu oh hmm yeah... missed that. cool!
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KartikPrabhu btw got responses working with yaml now... very cool
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aaronpk cool!
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KartikPrabhu will be much easier to just append parsed mentions in the future
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GWG Good afternoon. I am interested in your philosophy and wish to subscribe to it. (Sorry...can't think of any better way to enter a community)
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KartikPrabhu that works! :)
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GWG Oh? Good.
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KartikPrabhu GWG: you should atleast have your own website where you post things though to do anything indieweb
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aaronpk GWG: welcome! do you have your own website right now?
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GWG I have 5 of them
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GWG I may be a multiple personality.
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aaronpk is that reflective of your real-world self?
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GWG Only one of them.
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GWG Actually, the one that is reflective probably isn't.
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KartikPrabhu maybe use one of them as the canonical one
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GWG The multiple personality was more a reference to my fragmented online presence.
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GWG I set one up as canonical
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aaronpk oh ok
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GWG The only one that has my name on it.
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GWG I am not a multiple personality in a clinical sense. Just disorganized
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aaronpk i mean i'm not gonna go say someone shouldn't have multiple personalities, on- or off-line :)
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KartikPrabhu gtg for now. Welcome GWG!
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GWG Nice meeting you.
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kbs is having trouble with multiple-personality vcards :)
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GWG aaronpk: After years of segmenting my interests into different areas...I'm not sure how to pull it together
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GWG That is why the indieweb idea is appealing
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GWG But, online pseudonyms was a very late 90s idea that social networking has been trying to kill
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GWG So, this is my canonical problem
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aaronpk I don't think there's anything wrong with online pseodonyms, but yes the more recent social networks have been trying to stop it
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GWG I'm not exactly hiding. But I brought back my canonical site and am posting to it and distributing elsewhere.
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GWG The thing is to start bringing things back under a single umbrella.
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GWG Anyway..that is not an indieweb problem.
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GWG Well, the technical part is.
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GWG I have written on Site A, B, C, and D. Which likely I need to create an author page on each site and link it as canonical back to the canonical URL, if I get it correctly.
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KartikPrabhu is back with some caffeine!
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bret https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpNgsU9o4ik
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GWG Hello again, KartikPrabhu. Coffee, tea, or soda?
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KartikPrabhu coffee! stopped drinking soda ages ago
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kbs GWG: yes, pretty much. The moment you establish a bidirectional rel=me link, the indieauth bits start working [assuming one of the sites is one of the 'approved' silos]
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KartikPrabhu GWG: yes. it is best to have a canonical post on your main site that you want as your identity and then push copies to others
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GWG Then you get into Google, and Facebook, Google+, Twitter...
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GWG Which makes it seem much more complicated than it probably is
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KartikPrabhu oh sure... you can have a lot of copies of yourself but all of them can connect back to your website :)
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GWG I think this is worthy of a post of some kind.
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basal I'm trying to figure out how h-cards work by looking at people's sites :x
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KartikPrabhu GWG: if i may: http://kartikprabhu.com/article/indieweb-love-blog
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KartikPrabhu :P
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KartikPrabhu basal: work as in?
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GWG I've never stopped blogging, actually.
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/benwerd/450354743408197632/450394870205521920 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Cambridge (webmention)
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KartikPrabhu GWG: that is good!
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GWG Just in so many different places.
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KartikPrabhu that is bad! ;)
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kbs I have a feeling hcards need to be parsed more by weighing their importance on the page, rather than the proposed algorithm :)
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basal KartikPrabhu, like where to put it. Looks like you markup the author of a post with an hcard.
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GWG KartikPrabhu: At one point, I was of the mindset that every interest required a separate page
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KartikPrabhu basal: h-cards basically identify a person so you can use them to markup authors or even people you mention in posts
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GWG I think I'll contemplate this more. But I'll hang around. Might as well get some use out of my bouncer
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basal KartikPrabhu, so is there like a h-card for the whole domain? or you just need something on every page...
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KartikPrabhu GWG: sure thing, but "more show less tell" seems to be the running mindset here... which I agree with ;)
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KartikPrabhu basal: there can be a canonical h-card on the root domain and every h-card on other pages can just link to that page
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GWG KartikPrabhu: Show as in...participate or show as in...show me your code?
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KartikPrabhu "show" as in build something... turn your blog into a indieweb thing
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GWG Working on it.
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GWG It's a Wordpress blog
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KartikPrabhu cool! excited to see what you come up with! :)
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GWG Plugin developers made it surprisingly easy
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aaronpk cool! there's a bunch of others working on indieweb wordpress plugins!
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KartikPrabhu those wordpress plugins are awesome
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KartikPrabhu says as he hacks away at python code :P
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KartikPrabhu basal: h-cards basically work like links to your name on Twitter or something. each post has your name with a link to your profile... it works similarly with h-cards
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basal I'm using Jekyll
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KartikPrabhu are there a lot of Ruby indieweb tools?
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GWG basal: Static page generation?
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aaronpk KartikPrabhu: some, but it seems the PHP ones are farther along
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aaronpk i've made some ruby gems tho
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basal GWG, mhmz
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GWG basal: I sort of do that. I built it into the server level.
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KartikPrabhu i see. it would be cool to have Ruby thigns since Jekyll seems to be a good static site gen.
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basal KartikPrabhu, So like <meta name="twitter:creator" content="asherehsa"> Put an h-card in the header of everything to link to my about page?
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KartikPrabhu not in head element but where you say that you are the author of the post.
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bnvk aaronpk: ahoy, sorry, was eating
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aaronpk basal: also that's not an h-card, that's a proprietary twitter tag
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KartikPrabhu < div class="h-card"><a class="u-url" href="link-to-about">Basal</a></div> something like this
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basal aaronpk, I meant it as an example of linking to my twitter page
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basal KartikPrabhu, but if it's a div you can't really do it in the header
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KartikPrabhu it is recommended to have visible meta-data
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KartikPrabhu div was also just as an example. you can put classes on anything
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basal so you'd use something similar to markup a blockquote?
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KartikPrabhu yeah!
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KartikPrabhu in the citations
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basal I was thinking tumblr style blockquotes haha
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Loqi rofl
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KartikPrabhu what's a tumblr style blockquote?
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basal but I guess that straddles the line of comments
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KartikPrabhu is Tumblr illiterate
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kbs aaronpk, KartikPrabhu - vis-a-vis the representative hcard thing -- what seems to be less worse is to skip the check for the "uid" property in step 1. THis makes it work for aaronpk and snarfed 's sites
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kbs which otherwise doesn't recover the hcard of interest
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kbs ( aaronpk - referrin to http://microformats.org/wiki/representative-hcard-parsing )
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KartikPrabhu kbs: does tantek's site work correctly?
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aaronpk hm I haven't looked at the h-card on my site in a while... does indiewebify.me come in handy for checking it?
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KartikPrabhu i've learnt to trust tantek's site wrt mf2
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basal KartikPrabhu, using blockquotes from discussion http://andrysb24.tumblr.com/post/78613973560/knightof-hope-vanishedschism
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basal *for
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kbs KartikPrabhu: yes - though it ends up pointing to twitter. I can't see he's got any vcard pointing to tantek.com
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KartikPrabhu basal: interesting... haven't seen those on any indiewebsite so not sure how to do them :)
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basal KartikPrabhu, well I think indieweb uses comments and such for that
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KartikPrabhu yes... and comments can have h-cards too! pointing to the author of the comment
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kbs aaronpk: I think what's happening on your site is that the canonical algorithm picks up no hcard, and otherwise things pick up random hcards - cf. http://indiewebify.me/validate-h-card/?url=https%3A%2F%2Faaronparecki.com%2F
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kbs aaronpk: however, I think the main tweak is that most sites I looked at seem to not add the "uid" property - so I have a feeling that for pragmatic parsing some other idea is needed
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kbs it'll probably need to "weigh" the vcards it finds by importance [rather like how the html -> readable markup tools work] or something similar
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aaronpk oh funny
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KevinMarks look for rel="author" ? lots of people use that now
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kbs KevinMarks: yep - I think that would be a good idea too, I didn't test that to see how well it does in practise
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basal Also I'm using Nearly Free Speech for hosting and the server went down. http://status.nearlyfreespeech.net/ Really happy to own my own data.
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aaronpk why isn't it finding my h-card? it's a root-level h-card with my name in it
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aaronpk it's just finding the first one, but it's inside an h-entry at the "location" property
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aaronpk (Circa 33, that's where I had brunch this morning)
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kbs aaronpk: right :) but if one follows the 'representative algorithm', thats where it lands up
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aaronpk i don't think so
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aaronpk "The first hCard found which has a "url" property whose value is the url of the page (source) and is also a "uid" property for the hCard"
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aaronpk neither of those conditions are met by the Circa 33 card
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Loqi [mention] http://www.mrmorgan.me/2014/03/27/my-current-biggest-annoyance/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/permashortcitations (webmention)
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aaronpk "If the previous step didn't find a representative hCard, then the first hCard with a "url" property that also has the rel="me" relation"...
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aaronpk also does not match that card
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kbs aaronpk: right - "I think what's happening on your site is that the canonical algorithm picks up no hcard"
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aaronpk ooh
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kbs I think [as KartikPrabhu pointed out] these tools end up falling back to the first card it finds, failing that
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aaronpk that seems like a thing it should not do
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kbs tries KevinMarks rel=author trick
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bnvk aaronpk: so Step 4. of https://github.com/converspace/webmention/blob/master/README.md is what webmention.io handles, right?
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aaronpk yeah I think this is just taking the first h-card regardless... https://github.com/indieweb/indiewebify-me/blob/master/web/index.php#L236
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aaronpk indiewebify.me doesn't really seem to be using the canonical h-card algorithm at all
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: yeah I doubt the "take the first one" fallback
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aaronpk bnvk: webmention.io will do the verification, yes
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bnvk ok, cool
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aaronpk it's a complete webmention endpoint, you don't need to implement anything to use it, actually
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aaronpk like if I built a web interface for it, you could just log in there and see all the mentions received
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bnvk ah, right, but I still need to "send" WM from my site when I am replying to something on someone elses site right?
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aaronpk yeah, it doesn't do anything with sending webmentions
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aaronpk but, I have a library you can use that will help with the endpoint discovery and sending stuff
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aaronpk https://github.com/indieweb/mention-client-php
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aaronpk the first usage example is the most basic, where it'll take one of your posts, and send mentions for every URL on the page
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bnvk wait, is that different than the "indieweb/mention-client" once I'm using?
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aaronpk yeah that's the one
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bnvk oh ok, cool
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Loqi [mention] http://www.mrmorgan.me/2014/03/27/my-current-biggest-annoyance/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/permashortcitations (webmention)
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kbs KevinMarks: yep - your suggestion seems to quite nicely, on my small sample set at least
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kbs s/to quite/to work quite/
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Loqi kbs meant to say: KevinMarks: yep - your suggestion seems to work quite nicely, on my small sample set at least
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KartikPrabhu rel=author is a good fallback. or maybe rel=me
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kbs right. rel=me is what I was using
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kbs but using rel=(me|author) seems to work better
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@equivalentideas Rise of the IndieWeb - Amber Case - FutureTalks http://www.youtube.com/ via @instapaper (twitter.com/_/status/450405450651926529)
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kbs ( btw, all this is to do with a tiny experiment to get "good" contact info from a canonical url
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kbs and much appreciate the interesting samples from everyone's home pages :-)
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KartikPrabhu kbs: that is a good experiment. good h-cards should be able to do that
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kbs KartikPrabhu: dunno about good, but it's keeping me entertained at any rate :) I've also been crawling rel=me links to create a little network of relationships for any site, and that's been a little bit fun too
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KartikPrabhu building your online web! or social graph as they call it... cool
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bnvk aaronpk: is there a testing note on your site (or elsewhere) that I can send test web mentions to?
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kbs heh. I'm sure KevinMarks has probably done this [rel=me page rank ?] for real
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kbs I'm mostly just seeing what the heck is going on, pretty much
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aaronpk sure! https://aaronparecki.com/notes/2013/10/12/2/indieweb
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bnvk takk
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bnvk aaronpk: is there a preferable term for a "type" of content which is the original content (on someone elses site) that I am mentioning in my post?
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KartikPrabhu bnvk: i think all links are implicitly mentions. But for others there is this: http://indiewebcamp.com/responses
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aaronpk i think you mean this? http://indiewebcamp.com/reply-context
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bnvk right, I think that's what I mean :)
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KartikPrabhu oh! my bad :P
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Loqi [mention] http://www.mrmorgan.me/2014/03/27/my-current-biggest-annoyance/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/permashortcitations (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://www.mrmorgan.me/2014/03/27/my-current-biggest-annoyance/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/permashortcitations (webmention)
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aaronpk i wonder why he keeps sending webmentions
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kylewm aaronpk: I just wish he would reply to me!
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Loqi [mention] http://www.mrmorgan.me/2014/03/27/my-current-biggest-annoyance/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/permashortcitations (webmention)
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aaronpk ooops my twilio account ran out of money so indieauth sms stopped working
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KartikPrabhu is this the beginning of mention spam?
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kbs heh
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aaronpk nah I think he's just updating the post and the CMS is sending it again, which is correct
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KartikPrabhu hmm possible...
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aaronpk it's just the IRC notifications that aren't very intelligent
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: do you store the original HTML of the mentions you receive?
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aaronpk yes
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KartikPrabhu for all of them, even reposts/likes?
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aaronpk yeah
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KartikPrabhu hmm i see. something i'll have to incorporate.
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KartikPrabhu always good to have a copy of responses I suppose. same with reply-contexts
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Loqi [mention] http://www.mrmorgan.me/2014/03/27/my-current-biggest-annoyance/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/permashortcitations (webmention)
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aaronpk I did it in case I upgrade the microformats parser, I can re-parse all the html files
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KartikPrabhu yeah that is a good idea too!
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KartikPrabhu or in case you decide to include more information from the original
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aaronpk I also store the parsed JSON from php-mf2, so I can just rm *.json and it'll re-parse the html files on the fly
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KartikPrabhu oh that's clever
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Loqi [mention] http://www.mrmorgan.me/2014/03/27/my-current-biggest-annoyance/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/permashortcitations (webmention)
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