#indiewebcamp 2014-04-06

2014-04-06 UTC
paulcp and snarfed joined the channel
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Loqi
snarfed: tantek left you a message 40 minutes ago: in particular, I think a talk on the concept of Backfeed and using Bridgy to demo it woudl be great! http://opensourcebridge.org/events/2014/proposals
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snarfed
thanks for the vote of confidence!
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snarfed
i don't think i'm going to make it to portland, but i'll see what i can do
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snarfed
i'd happily support someone else giving a talk about backfeed and including bridgy!
tilgovi, scor and pfenwick joined the channel
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@krynsky
Contemplate this & take action: The Eternal Life of Your Data http://insights.wired.com/profiles/blogs/the-eternal-life-of-your-data #lifelogging #digitalpreservation #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/452605804000968704)
mydjey, squeakytoy, krendil, squeakytoy2, snarfed and ben_thatmustbeme joined the channel
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ben_thatmustbeme
good evening all
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kbs
hi ben_thatmustbeme
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ben_thatmustbeme
hey there, whats been up today, catching up on the logs quickly now
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kbs
speaking for myself at least, just refining some of the crawling stuff
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kbs
and starting to think through some ideas for private messaging
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kbs
how 'bout you? Anything exciting brewing?
tantek, squeakytoy, squeakytoy2 and pfenwick joined the channel
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ben_thatmustbeme
not at the moment. Been working on getting webmention set up
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ben_thatmustbeme
also trying to convince a friend of mine to take a look at marking up his site with mf2 at least and get him doing some indie web stuff
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ben_thatmustbeme
his first complaint was that the indiewebcamp site doesn't work well on mobile
scor joined the channel
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kbs
heh
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kbs
could I ask [out of curiosity] how you're planning to set up webmention? manually curating it, or something else?
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gRegor`
Evening ben, kbs
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kbs
hi gRegor`
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kbs
ah well - I think the theory of rel=me is not matching the practice in a helpful way :)
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gRegor`
How's that?
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kbs
so in theory, a rel=me link can only appear on a profile page
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kbs
ie - both the source and the target have to be a profile page
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gRegor`
Well, for what purposes? Webmention?
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kbs
oh, just for finding out all the 'validated' pages for a given profile
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gRegor`
If it's authorship, the rel=me should have an h-card, yes. Is that what you mean?
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kbs
sort of more like what indieauth needs to do - given a starting profile page, find all the linked profile pages with a chain of links back to the starting profile pages
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kbs
so for example, if I give it snarfed.org/about
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kbs
I expect it to give me back ryan's twitter page, g+ page and so on
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kbs
but [to take that example] although [in theory] snarfed.org/about is ryan's "profile" page - the rel=me links on the twitter and g+ page actually point back to snarfed.org rather than snarfed.org/about
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kbs
so what's happening [I think] is that while in theory only "profile" pages should have a rel=me link -- both as the source and the target -- in practice, this is not the case
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gRegor`
Hm
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gRegor`
Well, personally I have the rel=me links on every page of my site.
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gRegor`
I have an "about" page which I guess is analagous to a "profile", but I've not really used that term.
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gRegor`
I'm not aware of it being a problem to have rel=me links from multiple pages
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kbs
as I learn't earlier today - I think the theory is that you'd use a rel=author page on every site to the about page
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kbs
rel=me is actually used to identify equivalent profile pages, rather than authorship - if that makes sense
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gRegor`
I have them in the HTML of the footer, but am going to move them to <link> elements in the header
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gRegor`
Correct
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kbs
therefore, the only page that ever has a rel=me link is a profile page
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kbs
(both for the source, and target)
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gRegor`
I disagree
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kbs
I thought so too earlier - but this is actually the difference between rel=me and rel=author [otherwise, having two such tags would not be useful]
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gRegor`
I mean, I see what you're saying, but I don't see a problem with having my rel=mes on every page
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gRegor`
Isn't rel=author only absolutely necessary if you don't include the author h-card on the page?
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gRegor`
I do the latter.
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gRegor`
I guess it violates DRY, technically, though it just appears in one template file that's re-used.
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kbs
Well - it's no problem for anyone visiting the page
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kbs
but it indicates [to machines anyway] something that's probably not what you intended
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kbs
rel=me indicates that the current page is a profile page
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kbs
and that the linked target is equivalent to the current profile page
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kbs
by contrast
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kbs`
rel=author indicates the current page was authored by the target page
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kbs`
anyway - it's something everyone is doing in practice
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kbs`
which is why I was thinking that the distinction between rel=me and rel=author seems not to be true in practice
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gRegor`
The use of "profile" is confusing to me, because it's not a very specific term.
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gRegor`
"rel="me" is used on hyperlinks from one page about a person to other pages about that same person." from the microformats wiki
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kbs`
profile basically is just whatever you'd think of as an "about page"
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kbs`
right
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gRegor`
Every page on my site is "about" me
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gRegor`
Not a strict profile, in the sense of a FB / Twitter profile.
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gRegor`
The wiki gives the example of tantek's homepage with rel=me to his Twitter.
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kbs`
yes - but tantek is a weird case because in fact his homepage happens to be his about page
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kbs`
you'll probably notice that none of his other pages have rel=me links
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kbs
he uses rel=author for all the other pages, pointing back to his "about" page, which happens to be his home page too
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gRegor`
Just noticed werd.io points his rel=author to a humans.txt
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kbs
haha
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gRegor`
But he has an h-card on each post, so not a problem for pulling author info. Interesting choice, though.
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kbs
h-card is not generally an issue, I found
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kbs
but the theory of rel=me is not actually true based on how people are using it. Essentially I have to pretend rel=me and rel=author are equivalent, for all practical purposes
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gRegor`
Sorry, guess I'm still not following you.
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gRegor`
If I'm parsing a page for mf2 to pull in webmentions, for example, I look for an h-card associated with the post as the author. If I don't find it, I look for rel=author and pull in the h-card from there.
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kbs
so it's not about looking for a h-card
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kbs
it's about finding all the sites that you "own"
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gRegor`
rel=me hasn't entered into it for me. But I've only done webmentions
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gRegor`
maybe you mean more for indieauth
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kbs
yes - more related to what indieauth does, but more about this
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gRegor`
So you should go to the rel=author page and pull in the rel=me links from there, right?
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kbs
that's what I'm doing to make it "work" but that's not the theory :)
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kbs
in theory - "you" are represented by the page http://gregorlove.com/about/
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kbs
to put it differently - if I see a page with rel="me" on it, it immediately means that it's a profile page
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kbs
[and that the target page is also a profile page]
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kbs
here I use profile in the sense of "about"
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gRegor`
I guess. Because some sites do that. I don't think it makes it a hard and fast case that it should be that way.
pfenwick joined the channel
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kbs
ask tantek when he's around :)
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kbs
the reason why it matters is something like this.
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gRegor`
Is there rel=profile? :)
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kbs
probably may as well - everyone is piling on random stuff into rel= :)
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kbs
I start with gregorylove.com/about
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kbs
the rel=me takes me to github
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kbs
github takes me back (say) to gregorylove.com
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gRegor`
No y ;) But yeah
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kbs
I can no longer prove that gregorylove.com/about is associated with github
squeakytoy2 joined the channel
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kbs
because there's no rel=me from gregorylove.com to gregorylove.com/about
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gRegor`
I guess I see how it can be a problem with domains that have multiple users / authors.
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gRegor`
It doesn't seem to be a problem for single-author sites like mine (and most of ours)
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gRegor`
But I guess if we're building general-use scenarios, yeah, that's a problem.
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kbs
it's because of an accident of implementation I think - when you use indieauth, you probably provide gregorylove.com rather than gregorylove.com/about
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gRegor`
E.g. systems shouldn't assume single-author sites
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gRegor`
I put rel-me links in the footer, hidden, so I couuld use indieauth, yes.
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kbs
yes - that's why it's working :)
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gRegor`
That's all they're intended for, so far.
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kbs
you should ask kevinmarks or tantek when they show up next for the distinction - I had a long interesting conversation with kevinmarks today afternoon when I finally realized what the theory was, and also why it's almost irrelevant because nobody actually makes this distinction
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gRegor`
I'll look it up in the logs
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gRegor`
(I meant, on my site, that's all they're intended for, so far. Just to be clear.)
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kbs
*nod* yea :)
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gRegor`
What time was the chat?
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kbs
ah, let me look it up and paste some links to the time
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kbs
btw - this one tantek had last year, which I also saw http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-12-01/line/1385938364
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kbs
ending at 12:23 - basically the key point [for me] rel=me should occur only on an about page, and point to an about page
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kbs
and then some discussion about why this doesn't really happen in practise, etc
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kbs
s/practise/practice
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Loqi
kbs meant to say: and then some discussion about why this doesn't really happen in practice, etc
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kbs
so also in theory, apparently we should all be logging into indieauth using our /about pages, should our "about" page actually not be the baredomain itself. I think part of the confusion is probably because tantek uses his baredomain to represent what we'd all consider an 'about me' page
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gRegor`
Hmm. I think I get the gist of it, but still a bit confused. I'll think about it some more. :)
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kbs
yea :)
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gRegor`
I guess take my site for example: How/why would you start with gregorlove.com/about instead of just gregorlove.com?
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gRegor`
Like, what's the use case?
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kbs
so my specific use case is - I have a little tool that given a url, starts looking for associated profiles.
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kbs
ah, let me link to an example, one sec
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kbs
that's the actual experiment I'm tinkering with
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kbs
So - I go to some random page
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kbs
and I say, hey, this person looks interesting, find out more about him or her
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kbs
and let's say, I end up in your /about page, and decide I'd like to know more about you
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kbs
The tool starts crawling all the rel=me links, and checks that they eventually point back to the starting point [that's how I can tell it's "legit"]
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kbs
right now, if I crawl your baredomain, it "works" - because you've linked it in such a way that I can see your associated domain(s)
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kbs
Ideally, I'd do something quite simple - find the 'author' on any page
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kbs
then chase rel=me links from there - which also doesn't quite work if I happen to start from your /about page
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kbs
so I have to do some unholy hacks of merging rel=me and rel=author links and look out for specific domains before anything really works as intended
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kbs
I do think that any reasonable person would probably start with the baredomain for any indieweb site
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kbs
and that also does work simply because people just want to get indieauth working :)
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GWG
delurks
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gRegor`
Got it
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gRegor`
Well, it makes an interesting case for me adding rel=author, which I don't have anywhere currently.
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gRegor`
Is the "ideal" situation for you that my post permalinks would have rel=me to /about, and on /about I would have rel=me to external profiles?
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gRegor`
With those external profiles linking back to /about?
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gRegor`
Hi, GWG
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kbs
gRegor`: yea - that's the intended purpose of rel=me links anyway, if you want to be precise about those tages. But as you also pointed out right at the top - in practice people aren't making this distinction
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kbs
so I think any tools that actually use the data are having to make some adjustments
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kbs
s/tages/tags
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Loqi
kbs meant to say: gRegor`: yea - that's the intended purpose of rel=me links anyway, if you want to be precise about those tags. But as you also pointed out right at the top - in practice people aren't making this distinction
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kbs
it'd also mean that you'd have to login with /about rather than the baredomain into indieauth - I don't think it's chasing rel=author links
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KevinMarks
I think bare personal domains are OK as rel-me targets
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KevinMarks
and indeed personal blogs which are often subdomains
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KevinMarks
it gets messy with multi-author sites
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KevinMarks
which is why the rel-author was invented I think
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kbs
would a rel=me linked bare personal domain, also have a separate about page?
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kbs
gets tantek's style of using baredomain as the about page
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GWG
I've come in in the middle of this. But it seems like an interesting discussion.
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KevinMarks
some might
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KevinMarks
I used http://epeus.blogspot.com/ as my main "me" for a long time
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kbs
what would the appropriate rel=me target be, for those who use a separate /about page on their personal domain?
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KevinMarks
which is looking a bit crap.
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KevinMarks
ah, it's using mac.com for my profile pic
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KevinMarks
that would do it
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GWG
Oh, you're that Kevin Marks.
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KevinMarks
hm, I should write a blog post this year...
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GWG
Sorry...still new here.
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kbs
kevinmarks is the best test-case I've had for rel=me link chasing :)
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KevinMarks
I'm just a Zaphod Beebblebrox - didn't you hear I come in six packs?
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gRegor`
Haha
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kbs
I think the confusion is also because both kevinmarks.com and tantek.com use the baredomain as their 'this-is-me' page. But (for example) ryan uses snarfed.org/about - so as I understand it, ryan would be linking his various rel=me targets from and to snarfed.org/about
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kbs
and rel=author from everywhere else to snarfed.org/about
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GWG
But kbs, to go a bit philosophical...aren't you more than just your bio?
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kbs
(or, he could mutually rel=me link snarfed.org and snarfed.org/about I guess, dunno)
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kbs
GWG: sure :)
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GWG
For example, my problem is that I am an author all over the place.
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gRegor`
kbs: I guess depending how far down the rabbit trail you want to chase rel-me links, if you started with my /about, followed the link to my github, followed the link back to my root /, then followed the rel-me links from there, it would finally resolve. :)
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GWG
But my personal site is just...me.
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gRegor`
accidental italics, heh
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kbs
gRegor`: I don't think you have a rel=me from baredomain -> /about
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GWG
I'm trying to make it more than just an about page, which is why I'm here.
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gRegor`
You don't need one.
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gRegor`
You basically do two loops
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gRegor`
. /about => github => / => github again => / and you have a match.
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kbs
gRegor`: that matches / to github
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kbs
it doesn't match /about to github
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kbs
it proves you own /, but not /about
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gRegor`
I'm saying follow rel=mes until you get the match
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kbs
gRegor`: yes - I know ;) but the match has to be on the actual page, not a parent
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gRegor`
I think it's a pretty strong indicator, since it's in the chain
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kbs
it makes perfect sense for a personal domain, but not in general
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gRegor`
For your purposes, it would list "gregorlove.com and github.com/gregorlove" as validated. Not /about
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kbs
gRegor`: yes, exactly :)
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gRegor`
Which should be fine.
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gRegor`
Either it ultimately comes up with a match or it doesn't
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gRegor`
You could then go through the rel-author method if that didn't match, I guess
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kbs
gRegor`: yes, exctly :)
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kbs
that's what I do
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gRegor`
You do multiple loops like that?
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kbs
yes
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kbs
I chase down all the links, finding loops
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KevinMarks
there is s presumption that if you own / you own/about surely
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KevinMarks
I think the separate about pages would make more sense for something liek techcrunch
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kbs
KevinMarks - hm - does that work for something like a hosted site [like github]
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kbs
someone could arguably claim / without necessarily claiming ownership over /user ?
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KevinMarks
well I have github.com/kevinmarks/ and all below
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kbs
to first separate out the 'how to make it work' from 'what should the rel tags be' discussion :) to take a specific example, let's say snarfed.org is a personal domain and snarfed.org/about is the 'about-me' page
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kbs
in theory at least, should external rel=me targets go to snarfed.org, or snarfed.org/about ?
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gRegor`
I think if it points to snarfed.org, the implication is "this profile is associated with the entire domain and sub-pages"
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gRegor`
If it's a multiple author site, then the rel-me links should go to a specific user page.
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gRegor`
So in absence of rel-author elements on my site, once you follow the loops and verify my root is associated with the external profiles, you can implicitly assume the original /about is as well.
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gRegor`
Er, rel-me should be rel-author two chats up.
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gRegor`
Corrected: If it's a multiple author site, then the rel-author links should go to a specific user page.
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kbs
I do agree that if one assumes claiming ownership of a rel=me over a url is equivalent to claiming ownership over all urls with a longer suffix, that's indeed the case
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gRegor`
That said, I don't like the idea of making systems have to go through loops like that - 4 HTTP requests - just to confirm my /about is indeed associated with my twitter. :)
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kbs
it's isn't clear to me anyway, that the rel=me links are intended to claim anything like that
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kbs
though in practice that's what I effectively end up doing...
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gRegor`
True. I believe we're talking about additional information that can be extracted from rel-me relationships, outside their base purpose.
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GWG
What sort of information?
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kbs
it's a tricky, because it's used for validating claims about site ownership [eg: indieauth] and my cynical mind usually jumps to ways this could be abused
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kbs
who 'controls' a set of pages
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kbs
so I think gRegor` is pointing out that a rel=me claim on http://example.com/page1/page2 is implicitly claiming they own everything "underneath" page1/page2
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gRegor`
GWG: implicit information about paths below the "verified" link. E.g. my twitter profile links to gregorlove.com/, so once that's validated you can assume my twitter is also associated with my /about page.
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gRegor`
Correct, kbs
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GWG
Indieauth uses that, so does Google, but do many others use it to prove anything?
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kbs
is planning to as well :) hence wondering all the places he's gonna screw up
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gRegor`
Not yet that i know of, but kbs is working on something :)
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gRegor`
Is this related to your PGP thing?
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kbs
somewhat tangentially - it's the initial set of sites I'll consider for fingeprints
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kbs
it's somehow not making sense :)
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kbs
the subdomain claiming
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kbs
er, the subpath claiming
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kbs
rel=me is supposed to point to a profile page
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gRegor`
Hm?
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kbs
and not everyone has their profile page sitting at the root of their 'set of owned pages' on all sites
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gRegor`
Here's my main question: Why do you need to verify gregorlove.com/about is associated with my Twitter, when you can follow the rel-me loop and verify that gregorlove.com is associated with my Twitter?
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kbs
gRegor`: that happens only if I happen to start with the /about page to begin with
basal joined the channel
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kbs
the hope is to start with any page
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kbs
pull out the author
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kbs
follow rel=me links
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kbs
in your specific case, if I happen to start with /about, just because I look at it and decide to find out more about you
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kbs
there are no author links to /
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GWG
But, once you've decided I'm verified, what do you do with that information.
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GWG
You know who I am, basically.
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gRegor`
I don't have rel-author links anywhere
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gRegor`
So I guess I'm out of luck for now. :)
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kbs
gRegor`: well, if I happen tostart with the /about page on your domain, actually I'm out of luck I guess :)
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gRegor`
I guess my site is mostly an exception, though, currently
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kbs
no no - I think ryan also has a somewhat similar thing going on
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gRegor`
kbs: You don't have to be, though. I'm saying follow the rel-me loops until you verify *something*
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gRegor`
You'll end up verifying gregorlove.com, so gregorlove.com/about - where you started - is implicit
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kbs
gRegor`: yes - using your assumption, you're quite correct
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kbs
so here's where I'm kinda thinking all the ways things could go wrong
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kbs
I put a rel=me link to plus.google.com
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kbs
I guess I'd need to find the smallest subset of sites or something, and it still doesn't 'make sense' to me :) plus.google.com doesn't have any profile info, and I shouldn't be taking that sort of link into account
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kbs
I start from my g+ page
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kbs
I link to my site
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kbs
my site links to plus.google.com
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kbs
should I assume that my site is connected to all of plus.google.com?
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gRegor`
No. You would look for rel-me links on plus.google.com, find none, and halt
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kbs
why would I look for rel=me links on plus?
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kbs
I start with my g+ subdomain page
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kbs
I follow to my site
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gRegor`
Sorry, think I got confused.
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gRegor`
You mean literally "plus.google.com" or your g+ full profile link?
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kbs
my g+ profile link, yea
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gRegor`
So you start with the g+ and want to verify the domain it's associated with?
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kbs
yea, sorry . I start with plus.google.com/+user -> somedomain -> plus.google.com
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kbs
I want to find the pages that are 'owned' by the same user
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kbs
... have to disappear here, ... will think more too :)
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gRegor`
1) Find rel-me from g+ profile and load that page A 2) Look for rel-me in page A that has the base domain you just came from ('plus.google.com'). If it matches where you just came from, verified and halt.
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gRegor`
3) If no rel-me found on page A, look for rel-author on A and load that page B
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gRegor`
4) on page B, repeat #2
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gRegor`
I'm getting tired and probably not making sense. Haha. Especially with things hard to describe in text. :)
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gRegor`
Night all
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GWG
Good night, gR
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GWG
Good night, gRegor`
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Loqi
night night
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Loqi
goodnight!
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gRegor`
sleep well, Loqi
tantek, paulcp and kbs joined the channel
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kbs
tantek: wish you were here earlier to clarify rel=me usage :)
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tantek
hey kbs - did you go through the docs on microformats.org/wiki/rel-me ?
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tantek
I'm off to bed soon.
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kbs
I thought I did, but I probably missed something I'm sure - let me reread
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kbs
ah. quick question then
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tantek
is this about rel=me in general or RelMeAuth / IndieAuth in particular?
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kbs
rel=me in particular. If someone has a personal domain with a separate /about page - should all the external rel=me targets point to the /about page?
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tantek
there's also microformats.org/wiki/relmeauth if that helps
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tantek
no they should still point to the root
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tantek
home page
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tantek
and then the links from the home page to the /about page should have rel=me
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tantek
s/links/link
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: and then the link from the home page to the /about page should have rel=me
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kbs
ok, I've still not grasped rel=me clearly :)
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kbs
so, it's not the case that a rel=me target points to a page that represents "me", necessarily
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tantek
not sure why you'd think that
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kbs
because the bare domain is not a page that represents "me" it's actually the /about page, no?
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tantek
no - because everything at your home page and below represents "you"
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tantek
thus your home page acts as the common pointer for you
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tantek
you just happen to put more details at /about
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kbs
in the /about example, would there also be a rel=me link from the /about page back to the bare domain?
#
tantek
kbs - you could, but it's also implied in the rel-me reciprocation algorithm
squeakytoy2, basal and KartikPrabhu joined the channel
#
kbs
hm, trying to parse that :) I see that / -> /about is an explicit rel=me link - how does /about go back to / ?
#
kbs
so to put it differently - would the relmeauth algorithm still work if I input /about as my user identity URL?
#
kbs
[and the external sites link back to the bare domain]
#
kbs
so gRegor` was pretty much spot on - I'm the confused soul :)
#
GWG
I'm confused, if it helps
#
kbs
thanks :) makes me feel better
#
GWG
I'm still trying to figure out how to get people to care about anything I put on a site in the first place.
#
kbs
haha :)
#
GWG
Which is where the whole POSSE thing comes in.
#
GWG
Except all they ever do is 'like' it on Facebook.
#
GWG
I don't even like Facebook
squeakytoy2 joined the channel
#
kbs
so after reading it forward and backward and even more wiki reading for good measure, my interpretation of http://microformats.org/wiki/relmeauth#detailed_algorithm is that if I provide a /about as my identity URL, and I don't have a rel=me from /about to /, it won't auth me
#
tantek
kbs - the bigger challenge is that no one's implemented the sub-page part of the relmeauth algorithm yet either
#
tantek
current implementations all depend on using just your home page to make it work
#
kbs
right
#
tantek
which might make more sense to standardize on since it's just simpler
#
tantek
and in the long run it's not really worth the extra code to support folks who are going out of their way to make extra work for themselves
#
tantek
but wanted to allow for it in the algorithm in case there was interest in developing it
#
tantek
so far, there isn't.
#
tantek
it just makes more sense to people in general to have domain name represent them. not domain/about
#
tantek
maps onto existing models of domain identity
#
tantek
e.g. companies are company.com not company.com/about
#
kbs
so the thought about that are companies that host users
#
kbs
github.com vs github.com/user
#
tantek
github.com/user isn't indie
#
tantek
so it's ignorable from an indieauth perspective
#
tantek
so we *could* try to make indieauth work with entering your domain/about - but no one's presented sufficient evidence that it's worth it - so meh
#
kbs
hm. I guess as a model of domain identity, I'm trying to follow github.com as owning github, and for me to own github.com/user [ie, as being the target of appropriate rel=me urls]
#
tantek
though the algorithm says theoretically how it could work
#
tantek
kbs - why should indieauth support silo-auth use case like that? quite the opposite, not worth spending any time on it.
#
kbs
not indieauth - just trying to understand what the target of a rel=me means
#
tantek
I mean, ok for github to be an ephemeral auth provider, just not a canonical identity
#
tantek
kbs - rel-me has to be symmetrical in order to "work"
#
tantek
and as such, can theoretically work between any two URLs that rel=me link to each other
#
kbs
yes, but now there's an implied understanding that linking to a top-level rel=me also gives ownership of all paths under that top-level rel=me target
#
tantek
nah - domain ownership implies that
#
tantek
if you can control the root, you can typically control everything under it
#
tantek
that's independent of rel-me
#
tantek
and thus rel-me just re-uses that reality
#
GWG
I think there needs to be a visual.
#
kbs
so the my rel=me link to github.com/user doesn't really mean I control github.com/user -- it's just used to make indieauth work
#
GWG
Maybe someone will create a visualization generator.
#
kbs
since as a practical matter, github.com controls github.com/user
#
kbs
I'm realizing that my confusion is probably stemming from the dual purposes rel=me is being used for :) 1. "about me" and 2. "auth"
#
GWG
I thought rel=me was being used to represent that both resources referred to the same individual.
#
kbs
right
#
kbs
but if I rel=me to youtube.com/user, youtube.com could rel=me mutually to google.com (say). Now, who really "owns" youtube.com/user is a bit perplexing to me
#
GWG
Is that ownership?
#
kbs
as far as I understand
#
kbs
[because of the "all paths under" rule]
#
kbs
so if someone proves they own youtube.com, they also own youtube.com/user (which makes sense in a way)
#
kbs
eg: if I have myfamily.com and myfamily.com/son and myfamily.com/daughter -- the 'ownership' question becomes a bit foggy to me
#
kbs
the son and daughter can't have bare links back to the root from their g+ pages
#
kbs
but if the son links back to myfamily.com
#
kbs
it seems to me that he could login as the daughter
#
GWG
I think you may be overthinking it.
#
GWG
But I could be wrong.
#
kbs
is just confused as heck :) and apologizes profusely
#
GWG
Well, what if you subdomain
#
kbs
yes, that would work for the bare-domain
#
GWG
daughter.myfamily.com and son.myfamily.com
#
kbs
*nod* yes, that would be just fine
#
kbs
I guess the thinking is that an indieauth'able site must be sub-domainable
#
kbs
can't have different users under different paths
#
GWG
Things keep getting more complicated.
#
kbs
I think I'm realizing how little I know
#
kbs
which I hope is a good sign :)
#
GWG
Well, let me reframe the question
#
GWG
What do you want?
#
GWG
Formats and standards are great.
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#
kbs
given a url, find all the 'valid' profile pages for the author of the content at that url
#
GWG
But at the end of the day, what do you want to accomplish?
#
kbs
find more about them
#
kbs
I dunno - don't have anything more concrete than that at the moment :)
#
kbs
I'd like to type in tantek.com, and pull up all of his twitter, g+, dribbble, blog sites, github etc
#
kbs
to satisfy my curiosity about what tantek does, etc
#
kbs
I think I have something that I can make work at the moment
#
GWG
Well, that can be done.
#
GWG
All that takes is a little analysis
#
GWG
All those links should be on the page
#
GWG
All you need is a form box and a script
#
kbs
but in the course of doing it, I noticed that I needed to adjust and refine my understanding of what rel=me actually means
#
kbs
in practice, that is
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#
kbs
and I wanted to go back and find out what it is _supposed_ to mean, just out of curiousity and also to see how badly I've botched my algorithm
#
kbs
and out of that came my poking around at what relmeauth does, and an ocean of puzzlement, etc :)
#
KevinMarks
this is the collision between spec and reality
#
kbs
:) and my depleted store of brain cells aren't helping
#
GWG
Well, no specification can handle everything.
#
kbs
it's curiosity at this point I guess - [thanks KevinMarks for the pointers to the code, I've been mining the site-specific code for ideas]
#
kbs
at any rate, serves me right for thinking I had rel=me figured out :)
#
KevinMarks
you always end up with heuristics in parsing code
#
GWG
I'm still working on figuring out the philosophy. The code will come, hopefully.
#
GWG
Especially since I'm a horrible coder.
#
kbs
do let me know the philosophy as you figure it out :) much more entertaining anyway
#
kbs
at least, I _think_ one thing is that family.com/son and family.com/daughter doesn't play nice with indieauth - but it works with subdomains, as GWG poitns out
#
GWG
I've always found understanding concepts to be more important than protocols for how I approach things.
#
KevinMarks
mu uncle set up marks-family.co.uk with really bad URLs for all of us plus frames layout
#
KevinMarks
should I rel-me to my sub-page?
#
kbs
:-)
#
GWG
KevinMarks, how much do you consider that part of your identity?
#
GWG
When I arrived first in this room, I compared myself to a multiple personality.
#
GWG
Isn't part of the goal of establishing relationships between pieces of your web activities to tie elements of your identity together?
#
GWG
Admittedly, in some cases, that is exactly what you don't want to do...but...
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#
KevinMarks
well, thats the thing. You want to do it selectively
#
GWG
I'm agreeing.
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#
kbs
if you selectively go marks-family.co.uk/kevin [rel=me] g+/kevinmarks [rel=me] marks-family.co.uk (bare domain) - do you also get to assert indieauth ownership over marks-family.co.uk/dad ? :)
#
kbs
nice :)
#
GWG
Okay...that's just...not a good URL
#
KevinMarks
it renders with those 1990s table borders too
#
GWG
But, your identity seems fairly well established.
#
GWG
Unless people confuse you a lot with the Stargate character.
#
KevinMarks
there are plenty of others
#
GWG
Yes
#
GWG
It is a common name.
#
GWG
But you appear in enough places to easily establish your identity when needed.
#
GWG
I have a friend who has the same name as a major sports personality.
#
KevinMarks
I'm sure they all hate me when they google themselves
#
GWG
Drives him crazy
#
KevinMarks
"Sales Representative for Harley-Davidson Footwear at Wolverine World Wide"
#
KevinMarks
job title ftw
#
GWG
I only hate myself when I google myself.
#
GWG
But that is mostly because of what surfaces at the top.
#
kbs
oh, your uncle must be doing a geneology thing I guess - that's what shows up when I search for the path
#
GWG
I seem to recall a documentary where someone went to find a bunch of people with the same name as them.
#
GWG
Google Me, I believe it was called.
#
KevinMarks
yes I think so
#
KevinMarks
google me being a name we were denied for profiles by marissa
#
GWG
Google Profiles annoy me greatly.
#
GWG
But that is another story.
#
KevinMarks
I'm sorry, it seemed like a good idea at the time
#
kbs
well beloved, was she? :)
#
GWG
KevinMarks, it isn't the idea of them. It is the fact I have a gmail and an apps address, and now under the new Google Plus philosophy, every account wants me to create a Google Plus profile, and I can't tell the thing I already have one, and to use that one and stop asking me to join.
#
GWG
But the Google Plus revolution was long after you were involved in Profiles.
#
KevinMarks
yes, it was
#
KevinMarks
and they promised they'd have fixed the apps vs accounts problem by now
#
GWG
But, you'd think someone over there would think you might have two email addresses and only need one Google profile.
#
kbs
heh
#
KevinMarks
the problme was you could have 2 google accounts with the same email address but different passwords
#
GWG
That one I thought they fixed.
#
GWG
Well, I know how hard some of these things are to manage, and how many different problems Google is trying to solve.
#
GWG
That doesn't mean it doesn't annoy me when I'm being asked to set up multiple Google wallet accounts.
pfenwick joined the channel
#
GWG
When I can't comment on an Android App because I now need a Plus account, I buy apps through my gmail account, and tied the Google Plus account to my apps account
#
GWG
</rant>
#
kbs
complicated :)
#
GWG
kbs: I've spent the last few days trying to figure out how to get people I interact with out of their silos and over onto my site.
#
GWG
So, I've been trying to gradually ramp up posting on said site and syndicating it over to the various networks I set up accounts on, backfeeding the responses to my site.
#
GWG
So, I have webmentions and the related indieweb tech starting to be set up.
#
kbs
very nice.
#
GWG
Except the problem with silos is that people like them
#
GWG
So, the goal is for me to own my content...
#
kbs
I'm not much of a social-posting-type guy unfortunately
#
kbs
but I have a feeling there are enough here who'll probably be able to share their experiences with that aspect of it [interaction outside silos.]
#
GWG
But engagement requires people, who want to hang out on social networks...
cweiske joined the channel
#
GWG
kbs: I just...if I'm going through the effort to put something out there, I'd like people to actually see it. Otherwise...I might as well talk to myself.
#
GWG
I don't want to have the readership of a major blog or newspaper. I'd like to at least engage those people I'm affiliated with.
paulcp joined the channel
#
GWG
So, the point of syndication to a silo, as Willie Sutton allegedly said, is that is where the people are.
#
kbs
not knowing too much about this [I'm a newbie here as well] is it that you aren't able to pull and push comments in and out of (say) facebook easily?
#
GWG
Comments yes.
#
GWG
I got that done.
#
GWG
Still working on likes.
#
GWG
Apparently, clicking like is easier for people than expressing an opinion.
#
kbs
oh, that's interesting - I'd somehow have assumed likes would be technically easier to pull than sync comments both ways
#
GWG
At the moment though, I'm working more on the creating of the process than the creation of the content.
#
GWG
Which isn't good
#
GWG
Forest for the trees type problem
#
GWG
What's the point of building a nice house if you aren't going to live in it
#
kbs
are you already on the irc people list? just curious to see what sort of things you write about.
#
GWG
kbs: Not yet. I have about 5 sites.
#
GWG
And each one completely disconnected from the others.
#
GWG
I'm trying to fix that.
#
GWG
But, the one I'm working on now is a bio site.
#
GWG
Basically, I'm going to consolidate a lot of randomness there.
#
GWG
Anyway, on that note, I'm off to bed.
#
GWG
It is late here
#
kbs
good night, and good luck :)
#
Loqi
don't let the bed bugs bite
#
GWG
kbs: I've been struggling with this problem for a while. I have a lot to say, but I can't keep it in order.
#
kbs
be interesting to hear what you've figured out
#
GWG
I may write about it
#
GWG
It also may take a while.
#
GWG
But I'll have the first pieces up.
#
GWG
Not sure what I'll do after.
grantmacken, friedcell, friedcell1 and glennjones joined the channel
#
@realHermitian
Amazon TV: another hardware gate for a problem with a software solution. #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/452730788820582400)
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#
rtaibah
I’ve just install the WP webmention plugin on my blog http://rtaibah.com/blog the FAQ’s are quite lacking. How do I webmention somebody?
catsup, glennjones_ and melvster joined the channel
#
github.com kbsriram
edited /User:Kbsriram.com (+79) "[kbs] Test edit, indieauthed from github.com"
(view diff)
bupkes joined the channel
#
Loqi
bupkes: tantek left you a message on 4/2 at 1:15pm: Welcome! And nice domain name :)
#
bupkes
!tell tantek thanks :)
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
#
bupkes
hello all. I'm a non-coder but am ploughing through codecademy JS course to try and get some grip on things.
#
bupkes
I've got POSSE, webmentions working on my site bupk.es, thanks to some WP plug-ins and things.
#
bupkes
Jolly interesting stuff. Looking forward to being able to build some things to share :)
scor, pasevin, CheckDavid, cweiske, rtaibah, krendil and barnabywalters joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme
some intresting discussion last night
#
pdurbin
ben_thatmustbeme: what part?
#
ben_thatmustbeme
rel=me usage in various places
#
ben_thatmustbeme
at least long winded discussion about it
#
ben_thatmustbeme
but Good Morning
#
GWG
Morning
#
ben_thatmustbeme
what is everyone up to today?
#
GWG
I have to work this afternoon
#
GWG
That isn't very exciting though.
#
ben_thatmustbeme
what do you do for work?
#
GWG
A lot of things.
#
GWG
But corporate training is the big part of it
#
ben_thatmustbeme
*cough* stripper *cough*
#
GWG
I was here late last night, contemplating form over function
#
ben_thatmustbeme
in what sense?
#
GWG
That the need to perfect the functionality of the site creates an attractive site with webmentions and what have you....that people don't come to
#
ben_thatmustbeme
hmm, you could syndicate links/blurbs and force the issue
#
GWG
Force the issue to where?
#
ben_thatmustbeme
basically if friends want to read your content they have to click through to your site, not just read and comment on the syndicated site
#
GWG
I'm skeptical
pasevin joined the channel
ben_thatmustbeme joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme
there we are, properly seating the power cable on one of my hard drives is always good
#
GWG
Yes
#
GWG
Must agree
#
ben_thatmustbeme
apparently my computer does have an internal speaker... didn't think it does, but it certainly let me know
#
GWG
Without it...how will you hear beeping?
KevinMarks3 joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme
i normally never hear beeping
#
GWG
That is good
#
ben_thatmustbeme
yes and no, there are times i would have liked some POST codes
#
GWG
I'm flashing back to when I used to put in a card for that
CheckDavid and pasevin joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme
grr, for some reason php isn't installing any modules, so no curl... which makes testing webmention parsing difficult
rtaibah joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme
oh, huh... apparently gentoo now builds them directly in to the binary
#
ben_thatmustbeme
that explains a lot
pasevin_ joined the channel
#
@_Puwt
Tweeps dapatka DISKON 25% utk pembuatan Web hosting & toko online di http://www.indieweb.biz dengan belanja di @zloozshop (* :D
(twitter.com/_/status/452817053846470657)
kbs joined the channel
#
kbs
sorry about the rel=me blathering :)
#
GWG
kbs: Hello again
KevinMarks2 joined the channel
#
kbs
GWG: :) hi there
#
@zloozshop
RT @_Puwt: Tweeps dapatka DISKON 25% utk pembuatan Web hosting & toko online di http://www.indieweb.biz dengan belanja di @zloozshop (* :D
(twitter.com/_/status/452823348771176449)
paulcp and ttepasse joined the channel
#
@kyle_wm
@dshanske PS, saw your webmention to http://indiewebcamp.com in the IRC channel, come join us if you'd like!
(twitter.com/_/status/452831584685543425)
#
GWG
So, anytime anyone talks Indieweb...Loqi pastes it here?
#
Loqi
dude
#
aaronpk
GWG: on twitter yes
#
aaronpk
using twitter's realtime search api, so it shows up pretty quick, often even before a webmention of a posse'd tweet
kbs joined the channel
#
GWG
I once again will say I feel like I could create a full hobby out of setting up this tech, and as a result, not have any content to POSSE
#
kbs
heh
#
aaronpk
just live-narrate what you're doing :)
#
GWG
The barrier to posting stuff online is that you wonder if anyone is interested.
#
GWG
"I made an omelet this morning."
#
GWG
"There wasn't any hot water in my shower again."
#
GWG
"I POSSEd this statement."
#
GWG
How many of those interested you?
#
aaronpk
if I knew why the omelet was significant it may interest me
#
GWG
Well, for a while there I was chronicling my adventures with induction cooking.
#
GWG
Or rather...my triumph at not burning things
#
aaronpk
that's cool
#
GWG
But, vanity is an age-old argument in social sharing
#
aaronpk
don't forget you can always reply to other peoples stuff too, and you know, have conversations
#
GWG
I haven't figured out how to pull in conversations I didn't initiate
#
aaronpk
like just replying to someone's note?
#
arcatan
yeah
#
arcatan
setting up the indiewebcamp seems like a lot of work, but to be able to take part in conversations might make it worthwhile
#
arcatan
(/me isn't yet there)
#
arcatan
and by the indiewebcamp, i mean support for indieweb stuff like webmention. weird typo.
#
GWG
aaronpk: I meant from other services.
#
aaronpk
GWG: not sure what you mean. have you seen how others are doing replies?
#
GWG
No. Do you have an exampe?
#
aaronpk
sure, compare my replies to a tweet and also directly to barnaby:
#
GWG
I'm still confused.
#
GWG
How did the tweet end up on your site?
#
GWG
You can't be pulling in every tweet?
#
aaronpk
but it works for anything i'm replying to, not just tweets
#
GWG
I wonder how I automate that
#
aaronpk
it's basically just parsing the URL I reply to for an h-entry
#
aaronpk
with twitter there's a special case for converting a tweet to an h-entry, but everything else is straight mf2
#
GWG
Yes. But since I'm using Wordpress, I always wonder if someone has done the work for me.
#
GWG
Especially since I'm a horrible coder.
#
aaronpk
it is likely
#
kbs
aaronpk: out of curiosity, do you have an analogous example for facebook [meaning, eg: commenting on posts written by others, and not necessarily public, etc.]
#
GWG
kbs: If it isn't public, then you get into issues of courtesy
#
aaronpk
kbs: I don't do anything non-public other than strictly private messaging
#
kbs
GWG aaronpk *nod* thanks, was curious
#
aaronpk
i'd love to get there, but there's a few things blocking me
#
kbs
nice. Be interested to see your solution when it's ready
#
@codepo8
How advertising cookies let observers follow you across the web - http://www.theverge.com/2014/4/4/5581884/how-advertising-cookies-let-observers-follow-you-across-the-web - this is what Mozilla fights against #ownyourdata
(twitter.com/_/status/452843664621203456)
#
kbs
[the twitter integrations are very neat - look forward to see how it co-evolves with the other silos]
#
GWG
The next question I'm figuring out is...if I know people share on various networks, how to allow them to seamlessly do so.
#
GWG
I have to count on people not to accommodate me
pasevin and KevinMarks2 joined the channel
#
kylewm
GWG: can you clarify? trying to help other people to seamlessly share your content?
#
GWG
People don't seem to want to come to a site and comment there.
#
GWG
Or mention it on their own site, as many of them don't have it
#
GWG
They want to bring it back to the silo they prefer
wildtype joined the channel
#
GWG
I'm a skeptic, basically, and I want to cover all bases.
#
KevinMarks
having just trolled benwerd, I wonder how zalgo-compliant webmentions are: https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/452855608358604800
#
@kevinmarks
@benwerd s͕͖o̘͇͍m̶̝̬e ̞̰̀a͕̬r̘é̫̹͈͖̼̦̮ ͎͇̻v̹̪̜er͚͙̭̜y̱̳͠ ͏͓͓͖ͅs͡p͝e̻̜̕c̱̰̩̗i͚̫̹̖̯a̵̞̯̤l̨̜̟̜
(twitter.com/_/status/452855608358604800)
#
kylewm
GWG, you're in the right place ;)
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#
GWG
kylewm: So I've gathered from my time here.
#
kylewm
KevinMarks, the <center> cannot hold
KartikPrabhu joined the channel
#
GWG
kylewm: I'm looking at your site
#
GWG
And you have a picture of food
#
kylewm
that's true
#
GWG
Yes
#
GWG
I was commenting on this earlier.
#
kylewm
that "I ate this for breakfast" is not interesting to other people?
#
kylewm
I used to keep a cooking blog but I was basically just reprinting recipes from vegan cookbooks :)
#
GWG
No.
#
GWG
Sometimes it is
#
kylewm
but sometimes I still make something I want to remember
#
kbs
wakes up - another vegan?
#
GWG
I was commenting I was worried that I'd focus on the technique and forget people come to a site for content
#
kylewm
kbs, yep! and here I thought everyone in the bay area had gone meat hipster :)
#
KartikPrabhu
hello all!
#
kylewm
I'm still trying to figure out if I have anything to say GWG, 5 years on twitter I rarely rise above bad puns or pictures of my cat
#
kylewm
so I'm mostly interested in the technology aspect at this point
#
kbs
kylewm: indeed, and therefore - cool :)
#
GWG
kylewm: I'm trying to figure that out.
#
GWG
Bear in mind, I control 6 Twitter accounts
#
kbs
looks forward to a new test-case for his rel=me obsession :)
#
kbs
nice tip on stanford inn - and looks like a very scenic location.
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#
GWG
kbs: Obsession is bad
#
kylewm
nice! it was beautiful, i ate waaay too much :)
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#
kbs
excellent :)
#
KevinMarks
rel="meat"
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kbs
haha !
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GWG
Isn't it rel="nomeat"?
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bret
kbs, i haven't been keeping up. Whats this with you have been doing with the rel=
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KevinMarks
wondering if I need a variant of NoterLive for making @pmarca style tweetposts
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KevinMarks
though I need to actually unfuck noterlive first
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kbs
bret: I'm afraid to start the conversation :) but I've been fooling around with with discovering all the rel=me linked (and validated) sites for a person, given any one of their profile pages. I have some snapshot here https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/18852638/draft/lindy/lindy.html
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kbs
in that process, I discovered that rel=me linking [together with validation] involved some more nuanced understanding of how they work [in theory and practice] and there were many longwinded conversations while people patiently educated me :)
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GWG
kbs: I think a discovery webapp tool thingy could have interesting possibilities.
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kbs
points at KevinMarks :)
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bret
thats pretty cool!
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kbs
thanks :) it's been pretty fun to play with as well
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KartikPrabhu
FB has a new UI for stream/wall
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aaronpk
they've been slowly rolling it out over the past couple weeks i think
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: yup. Maybe they are moving to the stream that dustin curtis mentioned in his criticism
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kylewm
intentionally confusing and difficult to navigate, good short term business decision, seems bad long term though
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: yup. lets see how the new, new UI goes
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KartikPrabhu
of course people will bitch about any change
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snarfed
!tell rtaibah hey, saw your question on the WP webmention plugin. it tries to send webmentions to every link in a post when you publish or update it.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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GWG
snarfed: I have a question for you.
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snarfed
shoot!
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GWG
You did the bridgy thing, right?
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snarfed
i did!
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GWG
Does it work for a page rather than a profile?
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GWG
I have a second site I post content to that I'd like to backfeed.
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snarfed
a facebook page?
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GWG
But it isn't a profile site
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GWG
G+ actually, but there might be a use case for both
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snarfed
ah, i see
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snarfed
i'm not sure if it works for G+ pages. probably not, but you can definitely try!
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GWG
How would I do it? The option is oauth for profiles
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snarfed
when you sign up with G+, it should give you a choice of which account/page to use
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snarfed
if the page doesn't show up in that list, then i guess they're not supported yet
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GWG
Okay
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GWG
snarfed: Any Wordpress oriented Indieweb advice?
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GWG
Things are starting to shape up
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snarfed
that's great!
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GWG
I was commenting to aaronpk that I haven't figured out how to pull in conversations from other sites that didn't start on my site
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snarfed
hmm i think http://indiewebcamp.com/WordPress is pretty solid. could be better organized, but has all the right links
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GWG
I read it
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snarfed
ah, yes. bridgy used to do that (find all links to your site, even when posted by other people), back before it supported webmentions
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snarfed
it doesn't any more but it could again
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snarfed
if you write code at all, i happily accept pull requests! :P
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GWG
I wish I wasn't a horrible coder
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GWG
I can fix bugs, but that is the best I can do.
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GWG
I feel bad when I ask about things, knowing you wouldn't want my code anywhere near you
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snarfed
definitely don't feel bad
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snarfed
reviewing/helping with code is always easier than doing it all myself
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snarfed
where's your site? (sites?)
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GWG
My training is in Library Science
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GWG
Yes
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GWG
Among other sites
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GWG
I forgot to clarify that to kylewm earlier
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GWG
He didn't need to invite me.
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GWG
But I maintain about 6 websites
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snarfed
man, sounds like a full time job
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GWG
That one is my testbed for implementing these standards
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snarfed
it's looking great!
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snarfed
nice work
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GWG
snarfed: I've created a multiple online personality
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GWG
Every interest, I have a website for
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GWG
And the people who wanted to share a site to write with me vanished
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GWG
So, suddenly I have 6 Twitter accounts.
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Loqi
agreed.
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aaronpk
well crap, a friend just commented on one of my facebook posts with her address
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aaronpk
my facebook is totally public, so I assume anyone can see the comment on facebook, but now it's going copy that to my site
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snarfed
aaronpk: ugh
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snarfed
yeah, bridgy is careful to only send public posts/comments, but still
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snarfed
want me to scrub it from your bridgy user page?
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aaronpk
hm yeah sure
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snarfed
will do
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GWG
This is why I have the Wordpress comment system set to Approve All
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snarfed
aaronpk: alternatively, bridgy won't poll your fb for a bit more, feel free to just delete it from fb (i assume you can)
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GWG
I don't want things coming through I didn't check
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GWG
Unless the flood comes to be too much
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aaronpk
hm not sure I want to delete from FB... since she seems to be fine with it
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snarfed
ok. easiest thing to do then is make bridgy poll and send it now, then scrub. sound ok?
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aaronpk
sounds good
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aaronpk
this is more motivation for me to get comment blacklist/delete/moderation working on my site
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aaronpk
(the other motivator being the weird pinterest spam bots that keep replying to my tweets)
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snarfed
ugh yeah
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aaronpk
it's funny, all the people who replied to that post on facebook think the butter idea is weird. but everyone who replied on twitter is like yeah! and is giving suggestions for how to make it better.
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snarfed
hah, love it
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aaronpk
you too!!
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GWG
It sounds disgusting.
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GWG
But I hate coffee, so I'm not a good judge
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GWG
I still remember when I drank cream as a kid
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GWG
And how much I regretted it later
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GWG
http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4VSLTX/ - I may have to check the webmentions plugin code to answer this
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snarfed
you can always just write html directly into your wordpress posts
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snarfed
no code needed
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snarfed
also, re fb/g+ pages in bridgy, feel free to chime in on http://indiewebcamp.com/WordPress if you want
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GWG
snarfed: The comments are either coming from you as the brid.gy developer, or those people over at SNAP
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GWG
I'm using their comment retrieval code
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GWG
I'm assuming your pulls are marked up, and theirs are not
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snarfed
oh i see. interesting. looks like both are pulling comments back, at least for twitter
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snarfed
you installed pfefferle's indieweb plugin bundle?
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GWG
No. I pulled each piece from the github source
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GWG
Think the bundle is better?
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snarfed
aha ok
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snarfed
nah no difference
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GWG
Actually, there is one
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GWG
Auto-update
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snarfed
yes true
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GWG
Will switch
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GWG
But, yes, I have both in
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snarfed
but the bundle isn't updated quite as often as the component plugins
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GWG
Okay
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GWG
Never mind
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GWG
Will need to read the code
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GWG
It is sparse on documentation outside the code
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snarfed
regardless, you have it all working great, nice work
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snarfed
you might want to disable either snap or bridgy for twitter so you don't get dupes
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GWG
8 yearsof Wordpress maintnance
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snarfed
oh man, yeah
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GWG
snarfed: I maintain gadgetwisdom.com
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GWG
androidbuffet.cm
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GWG
androidbuffet.com
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GWG
flightwisdom.com
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GWG
I run the server for valuewalk.com, though I dont' maintain the site
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GWG
I keep busy
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GWG
I want to add a lot of the stuff I've been playing with to those sites as well
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GWG
They are due for a refresh.
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GWG
snarfed: Now I have to figure out how to markup a podcast
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snarfed
oh interesting!
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GWG
androidbuffet is one.
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GWG
That is why I asked about the G+ page
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GWG
Someone runs an active one for the ite
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snarfed
got it
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snarfed
i always search the wiki when i hit a new task like that, usually someone's thought about it before
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snarfed
and yeah, http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2 has u-video, u-audio, etc
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GWG
Now that I have the base site up, I can start adding more content and expanding outward and connecting up all my content once and for all
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GWG
I have dreams
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GWG
Not sure about reality
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snarfed
that's true for everyone
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snarfed
one step at a time!
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GWG
I may not achieve what I want to do
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GWG
I still can't even get my music metadata fixd
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aaronpk
i'm considering only temporarily returning the status of webmentions
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aaronpk
just storing in a cache for like 30 minutes rather than writing to some sort of permanent storage
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aaronpk
so if you send me a webmention you'd get a URL you can use to check the status, but the URL will only work for like 30 minutes
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aaronpk
i'm trying to think if there is some sort of benefit to keeping the logs around permanently
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snarfed
aaronpk: hm. interesting that you're starting from a default of don't store, as opposed to a default of store
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snarfed
what are you optimizing for? disk space?
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aaronpk
laziness
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snarfed
seems like the code to read/write from cache isn't much easier than from disk...?
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aaronpk
i don't have a database right now, so the alternative is storing on disk with the rest of the stuff
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snarfed
depends on your stack and architecture
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snarfed
got it
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aaronpk
but then i have to make a scheme for generating files and avoiding name collisions and stuff
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snarfed
temporary is definitely a good start. and you could keep it in memory indefinitely, ie until you hit memory pressure or restart
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aaronpk
seems like it'd just be easier to throw it in memcache with an 8-char token
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snarfed
sure, start with that, see if anyone complains
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snarfed
name generation seems doable though, right? source + target, maybe truncated plus an index or timestamp suffix, or maybe hash of source + target?
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snarfed
not a big deal though
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aaronpk
i was thinking just sequential numbers after a date like my notes
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aaronpk
but if I do memcache then i'll just randomly generate a string
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snarfed
oh right. if you're handing out the id, do whatever's easiest
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aaronpk
turns out if you use 10-chars of newbase60 it's equivalent to a UUID so you can generate them all day long and never get duplicates
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snarfed
good enough for government work
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KevinMarks_
you could use the appengine memcache that persists...
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aaronpk
i'm on my own server
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aaronpk
i guess i'm trying to think why i would actually need that data to persist
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bret
any one notice chrome slowing down on older hardware in the last few months?
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snarfed
aaronpk: might be a good excuse to come up with some general purpose key/value store for p3k that you're ok with
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snarfed
which you can then use for other stuff
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snarfed
even e.g. just one or a few top-level yaml files
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aaronpk
but still, is there really a good reason to store these permanently?
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aaronpk
this is for everything including garbage webmention/pingback requests as well as blatant spam attempts (source doesn't link to target)
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snarfed
i'm surprised that you of all people are debating whether to store data :P
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snarfed
i hear you though
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snarfed
convenience and debugging for clients is the main one, i guess
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aaronpk
hehe i know it's kind of strange
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snarfed
and if you said, ok, still transient, but keep it for more like 1w or 2w, that would be good
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aaronpk
yeah it doesn't really matter what the TTL is
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snarfed
if you already had a storage answer that you liked, would you still debate?
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snarfed
really
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aaronpk
mostly because of the amount of spam I already get
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aaronpk
(things that are not even remotely valid webmentions or pingbacks)
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aaronpk
watching the logs from webmention.io is fun
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snarfed
fair enough
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snarfed
i wonder about the numbers though
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snarfed
ie with a reasonable data model, how much space per day would the storage take?
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snarfed
maybe worth 5m of back-of-the-envelope math
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aaronpk
like wtf just got a pingback from a youtube video to http://indiewebcamp.com/install_guide which doesn't even exist
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snarfed
good data if you ever want to hack together your own wm spam filter
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snarfed
…on a completely unrelated note, this is amazing: https://gist.github.com/lelandbatey/8677901
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aaronpk
oh man I've been wanting to do that for so long
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aaronpk
I have an app that does it, I use it to "scan" receipts and stuff by taking a photo
#
aaronpk
TurboScan for ios
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aaronpk
ok now I have to mount webcams on my whiteboard and run that script on it continuously
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snarfed
seriously right?
#
snarfed
i love me some command line imagemagick, but that’s just…wow.
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GWG
is eating chicken. Does not think this is noteworthy
#
GWG
It's no tofu wrap
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GWG
I'm worried that no one has signed up for IndieWebCampNYC
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aaronpk
I guess lately I've been leaning towards not storing stuff unless I have to
#
aaronpk
example: access tokens generated by my site are self-encoded, so I don't need an access token database
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GWG
No one has registered for it, I can see, KevinMarks
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KevinMarks_
security through volatility?
#
KevinMarks_
tantek has
#
KevinMarks_
might be a bit lonely if just him
#
GWG
Isn't Tantek organizing?
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KevinMarks_
hence me pinging sarah
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GWG
I'll try to go down for a bit.
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KevinMarks_
s/sarah/sara/
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Loqi
KevinMarks_ meant to say: hence me pinging sara
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GWG
I haven't been in Manhattan in months. I live in Queens
#
KevinMarks_
I can trawl fro other NY people to invite
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GWG
KevinMarks, will there be food?
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GWG
People come for food
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GWG
I'm curious as to what an Indiewebcamp is like
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bret
its fun! there is usually a meetup the day before at a bar where you can meet people and say hi
#
bret
the next day there are some brief intros and then people do session pitches
#
bret
barcamp style
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aaronpk
man I am not a designer at all. i can't even figure out where to put these really simple elemnts on the page
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bret
then there is like 2 or 3 session rounds broken up by lunch, then the next day you come in and work on stuff
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bret
aaronpk what are you working on?
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aaronpk
webmention status!
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bret
ah for checking if the receiving end likes what it sees?
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aaronpk
so if you send me a webmention you can see if it worked or why it failed
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aaronpk
cause I do all webmention processing asynchronously
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GWG
I work Sunday afternoons
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aaronpk
try sending me a webmention with curl :)
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aaronpk
curl http://aaronparecki.com/webmention.php -X POST -d source=foo -d target=bar
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bret
w00t
#
Loqi
giggles
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aaronpk
oops haha
#
Loqi
hehe
#
bret
oops what
#
aaronpk
oh you don't see it, good :) I have php errors visible when i'm logged in
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