#indiewebcamp 2014-05-06

2014-05-06 UTC
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@kevinmarks
Write-up of some of the issues with AppLinks from an #indieweb perspective: http://indiewebcamp.com/App_Links cc @ilyasu @finkd http://applinks.org
(twitter.com/_/status/463468272839835648)
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KevinMarks
I also misspelled indieweb
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kylewm
hehe, indeiweb might find some roman catholic web designers
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kbs
:-)
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kbs
snarfed: as I'm updating the checkmention to handle rel links better - would it be ok to run one more test on your polytics page? [this one adds a rel=me link in the content, and tries to spoof identity in a few ways.]
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snarfed
of course!
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snarfed
go for it
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kbs
thanks!
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GWG
snarfed: Do you have any idea on how, if the webmention hook uses the source, destination, and response, to figure out the post_id? Or do I have to go through every single post to compare the permalink?
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snarfed
the wordpress post id, right?
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GWG
Yes
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GWG
My plan is to store the response in the post itself.
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snarfed
there's a wp function to look up post id by URL (in this case target) or slug
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snarfed
pfefferle uses it in that plugin
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snarfed
looking
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GWG
Found it
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GWG
It is called...unimaginatively... url to postid
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GWG
So, your bridgy responses consist of a JSON object that includes "url", "type", and "id"?
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GWG
What are the possible options for type?
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snarfed
i only guarantee url and id, and then only on success
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snarfed
type is kinda undocumented
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GWG
Because now it becomes a Bridgy specific plugin.
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snarfed
i might have just made it up for the example
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GWG
Okay.
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snarfed
yes, since the spec doesn't define a response format
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GWG
That's why I'm asking. I should be checking the code, probably
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GWG
But, Bridgy only has a designated number of possible publishing points.
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snarfed
if your goal is to get syndication links from bridgy publish, then expecting bridgy's response format is reasonable
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GWG
snarfed: So, I just have to determine the domain from the url, use that to set a predefined post meta id that the URL is the value of.
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snarfed
you're ahead of me now, but give it a shot!
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snarfed
ugh, tumblr strips classes out of <a> links :/
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GWG
Well, the problem is testing it
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GWG
I haven't even updated my copy of the plugin to start trying.
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GWG
Too many projects
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GWG
Too many ideas.
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GWG
But that one is one that might jump the line.
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GWG
I've never been particularly good at prioritizing.
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GWG
I have this idea for a Bridgy plugin that does this and offers post meta boxes that allow you to select which sites to publish to and then adds the link in. That would be simple enough to work.
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GWG
Not sure what other features would be desirable.
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snarfed
totally!
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snarfed
character counting for twitter would be nice
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GWG
snarfed: All the plugins for that I tried stink. So, yes, I'd be in favor.
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snarfed
also bookmarklets for when you're on a tweet or fb post in your browser, to open that admin page and automatically fill in the url
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snarfed
(i've hacked up wordpress's Press This bookmarklet to do that)
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GWG
snarfed: Would that something that goes in a plugin?
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snarfed
got me
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snarfed
it's in my theme right now
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snarfed
happy to post it in a gist if you want it
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GWG
Let me see if I can do the other stuff first
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kbs
snarfed: done with test - thanks!
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GWG
snarfed: If it works well...would I be eligible for official endorsement?
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snarfed
as in, posting something on bridgy saying, this is good, use it?
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KevinMarks2
The character counting in Tantek's lib is good
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GWG
snarfed: Sometimes you need motivation
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GWG
KevinMarks2: I'll be focusing on the other stuff first
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GWG
The metadata
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kylewm
!tell kbs love the new checkmention test, but I can’t quite parse this sentence: “Please also check the links don’t have a rel="me" attribute on them, or someone could indieauth as you.” isn’t the solution to not accept mentions from third-party sites (except whitelisted sites like bridgy)?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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kbs
kylewm: ah, that does sound confusing. All I meant to say is that when embedding the content, that <a href=""> link should not also contain a rel="me" attribute
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Loqi
kbs: kylewm left you a message 1 minute ago: love the new checkmention test, but I can’t quite parse this sentence: “Please also check the links don’t have a rel="me" attribute on them, or someone could indieauth as you.” isn’t the solution to not accept mentions from third-party sites (except whitelisted sites like bridgy)?
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kylewm
ohhh, aonther layer removed from the exploit i was worried about
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snarfed
GWG, and any other wordpress users: here's some JS that turns WordPress's Press This bookmarklet into Indieweb Like/Reply/Repost/RSVP to this bookmarklets: https://gist.github.com/snarfed/e2628154ddaffd1ce1a5
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kbs
kylewm: right - I think the host-based whitelisting for bridgy would be 'good enough' (likely also need to ensure it's only using https, and whatever library is also verifying the certificate etc...)
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kylewm
out of utter ignorance, is it totally trivial to spoof a site without https?
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kylewm
I guess you'd just need to misdirect someone's dns
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kbs
well, I think the main hurdle (my 0.02 anyway) is spoofing DNS
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kbs
and that can be easy or hard depeendin...
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kbs
^^ yea :)
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kylewm
ty :)
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kbs
(at least in the java world, the other issue tends to be clients that don't actually validate an ssl connection. For some strange reason, many jvms are set up to not actually validate the cert after doing all the hard work of talking tls)
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kbs
You could also just use a pinned certificate on appspot.com which ought to do the trick just in case the certificate authority list used by your library isn't as kosher as it ought to be.
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kbs
and as usual, there's a nice balance between how attractive your site is to spammers, and how much effort one is willing to spend on this :)
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aaronpk
also MITMing your server is another attack vecgtor, but probably not very likely
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aaronpk
server or client actually
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aaronpk
new version of mention-client-php that now looks for <a> tags https://packagist.org/packages/indieweb/mention-client
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kbs
actually, I wonder if https actually solves the appspot issue... the certificate is only for CN=*.appspot.com :/
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kbs
I guess in theory it could be taken over by another appengine service, if they could also convince you that it's brid-gy.appspot.com
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aaronpk
ruby webmention gem now supports <a> tags https://rubygems.org/gems/webmention
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@rubygems
webmention (0.1.1): http://rubygems.org/gems/webmention A gem for sending webmention (and pingback) notifications
(twitter.com/_/status/463496624237719552)
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GWG
This may be a horrible culinary mistake. Horseradish in hamburgers
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bnvk
sounds legit
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kbs
vaguely thought wasabi burgers was a thing
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aaronpk
is offline for a couple hours while I fly to SFO!
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aaronpk
bye for now!
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kbs
good weather here :) have fun at IIW
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GWG
aaronpk: Fly well
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kbs
shoe drops - unless I'm missing something, services running https on appengine may not be _that_ secure after all :)
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snarfed
this is interesting: really solid thinking about how to make a syndication UX. http://sebastiangreger.net/2014/03/audience-context-conscious-posse-syndication-plugin-wordpress/
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kbs
well, with endpoints on *.appspot.com anyway...
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snarfed
GWG: same thing as you're working on, might be worth a look
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snarfed
kbs: explain?
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snarfed
sorry, reading logs
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snarfed
ah, i see
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kbs
snarfed: if someone runs a site at https://checkmention-bad.appspot.com -- is there any real way to distinguish it from https://checkmention.appspot.com (assuming I've managed to spoof dns in some fashion)
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snarfed
the spoofing dns part is the hard par
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snarfed
especially in practice. doable, but nontrivial
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kbs
works out of cafes all the time :)
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snarfed
also, if you own the network to that degree, there are probably much simpler and more practical attacks
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snarfed
it's an interesting question though. i don't know enough about wildcard ssl certs to say
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kbs
I guess what I'm thinking, is that authentication now falls on dns, not ssl
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snarfed
i know google login itself is immune, since google account cookies are compartmentalized by product/domain, so checkmention-bad couldn't use checkmention's cookies
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snarfed
eh, almost everything falls on dns
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snarfed
just as almost all user auth falls back to email :P
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kbs
heh
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bret
<3 bridgy and webmention.io http://bret.io/2014/05/05/fiber/
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kbs
nice, hope Portland gets the fast access :) Unrelated, but I dropped into one of the starbucks offering "google internet" out in the east-bay, and boy it was not too shabby.
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kbs
oh it's currently already in portland *doh*
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kbs
or is it (peers shortsightedly at https://fiber.google.com/newcities/)
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bret
well, its coming
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kbs
ah, nice. That's what I thought when I read your note, but that map on fiber.google.com got my brain discombobulated.
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bret
yeah me too!
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bret
have not seen that!
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kbs
also has to get used to spelling it fiber, not fibre
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kbs
(I gave up the battle with metre/meter :)
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kbs
the american spelling is more pragmatic though, you'd think I could get used to it after three decades
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KevinMarks
curl --head http://about.me/kevinmarks returns 418: I am a Teapot
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snarfed
omg it does
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snarfed
did they special case you?!
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snarfed
that's amazing
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@kevinmarks
@arrington @davemcclure @Uncrunched if you want to chat about #indieweb ways to do this, very happy to.
(twitter.com/_/status/463522796807548928)
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kylewm.com
edited /markdown (+113) "/* Underspecified */ add note about fenced_code extension for python"
(view diff)
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KevinMarks
!tell snarfed It's not just me, I think they really don't like crawlers. Web-hostile
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KevinMarks
hm. why does my hcard show up on kevinmarks.com when I'm logged into google, but not when I'm not?
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kylewm
KevinMarks: hmm, I see it whether I'm logged in or not
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KevinMarks
you see it on mine?
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KevinMarks
odd. I get it on epeus.blogspot.com when I'm logged out
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kylewm
oh wait, maybe I didn't understand the issue … I see an hcard at the top of kevinmarks.com regardless of whether I'm logged into google or not
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kylewm
is that the question?
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kylewm
that makes more sense :)
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KevinMarks
sorry, that wasn't clear at all was it
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KevinMarks
do you see my fcae by kevinmarks.com?
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kylewm
I do not, logged in or out
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kylewm
but I do by epeus
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KevinMarks
I think they only show it by one, and prefer my old blog in pagerank terms
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Loqi
snarfed: KevinMarks left you a message 55 minutes ago: It's not just me, I think they really don't like crawlers. Web-hostile
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KevinMarks
what time does iiw start tomorrow?
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KevinMarks
OSCON ignite wants talks - who's got a indieweb project they can explain in 5 minutes? http://www.oscon.com/oscon2014/public/cfp/331
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KevinMarks
ah, the IIW info is in email. o_O
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aaronpk
oh yeah that tripped me up a lot of times
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aaronpk
i kept trying to google for it or search my browser history
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aaronpk
see you in the morning! heading to sleep now.
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barnabywalters
ha ha ha that sounds pretty contraversial
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bnvk
hehe
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bnvk
it would be mighty inconvenient for many peoples entire world views
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bnvk
it's probably a bogus link
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kyank
Anyone able to answer an h-card question?
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barnabywalters
greetings kyank!
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barnabywalters
probably, go ahead
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kyank
According to http://indiewebify.me/validate-h-card/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftantek.com, the h-card on tantek.com includes Tantek’s name, ‘Tantek Çelik’.
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kyank
But looking at the markup of http://tantek.com, I don’t see his name tagged inside an h-card.
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kyank
I see <h1 class="p-name p-author">Tantek Çelik</h1>, but that’s in an h-feed, not in the h-card.
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barnabywalters
kyank: yep, that’s because if there’s no explicit “name” property given, microformats parsers will take the text content of the element and use it as the name
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barnabywalters
which has two benefits: all microformats are guaranteed to have a name property (even if it is a little messy);
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barnabywalters
and it allows for very concise markup, e.g. <a class=“h-card” href=“http://example.com”>Name</a>
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kyank
Take the text content of which element?
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barnabywalters
which, due to these implied parsing rules, find both name and URL properties
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barnabywalters
kyank: the element with the h-* clas on
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barnabywalters
i.e. the root element of the microformat
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kyank
Right. I’m not seeing such an element with “Tantek Çelik” as its content.
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kyank
So I’m wondering where the parser is finding that name.
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kyank
Ah, found it: <abbr class="p-name fn" title="Tantek Çelik">tantekc</abbr>
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barnabywalters
kyank: ah, well spotted
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kyank
Tricky, that Tantek! ;)
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@petermolnar
http://indiewebcamp.com/why#Avoiding_problems stories on how digital life can disappear (denied Google login, deleted blog) by the companies you're signing up to
(twitter.com/_/status/463660236445061120)
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@Mfecka
I merely signed up to Twitter so that I can use it for the abomination known as `Web sign-in' aka `IndieAuth'. Next, Github (same reason).
(twitter.com/_/status/463674583879782400)
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ben_thatmustbeme
good morning all
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aaronpk
morning!
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bnvk1
mornin
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ben_thatmustbeme
what are you guys working on this morning?
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aaronpk
about to head to mountain view for IIW!
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: enjoy!
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aaronpk
also you can follow my tag here http://aaronparecki.com/tag/iiw
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ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk, the ownyougram.com documentation of setting up micropub is excellent
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Loqi
aaronpk has 442 karma
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kylewm
any suggestions on how to guess the extension of an uploaded file? e.g., from OwnYourGram?
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kylewm
mimetype = application/octet-stream
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gRegor`
Meaning a third party site is returning that mime?
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gRegor`
Forcing you to download the image, but you want to know what type it is beforehand?
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barnabywalters
kylewm: there are a bunch of mime-sniffing packages available
kbs joined the channel
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barnabywalters
which look at the first few hundred bytes of the file and try to figure out what it is
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ben_thatmustbeme
hmm kylewm. i guess you could check the headers of the file itself, would be a little bit of work
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gRegor`
You can read the header of the file to determine it.
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gRegor`
^ barnaby beat me to it.
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ben_thatmustbeme
i'd just cheat, save it, then run the 'file' command on it
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kylewm
ahh, thank you for the suggestions!
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kbs
kylewm: you've already implemented aaronpk 's micropub endpoint authentication, is that right?
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kylewm
kbs: yep, more or less
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ben_thatmustbeme
i'm working on that bit now
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ben_thatmustbeme
or trying to work out that bit now anyway
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kbs
oh, nice :) one thing I was wondering - what signatures do you two choose to approve? [ie, signed by what public key?]
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kbs
ie - you get a JWT token signed with something - what public key are you using to check that it's a valid signature?
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aaronpk
right now everything is done through APIs, so you can just ask the token endpoint if it's valid
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aaronpk
ben_thatmustbeme: thanks! glad you found the docs useful, I tried to make it super helpful.
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kbs
ah, ok. I was about to try and submit a token signed by the pgp key on my site
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kbs
it's a bit of work to pull out the RSA params, etc - but it looks doable
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ben_thatmustbeme
I don't quite understand a few parts, but i'll get through it
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kylewm
kbs: the access token that I give out is JWT, signed with SHA256 and my flask application's secret key
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kbs
kylewm: oh, cool. So you are implementing both the token-exchange as well as the micropub endpoint then?
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kylewm
yep, I guess :)
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kylewm
but indieauth does all the hard work
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ben_thatmustbeme
kbs, thats what i'm doing too. I want to control the token db.
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aaronpk
hm good question about the mime type
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aaronpk
i'm using curl to do the file upload, so it gets set automatically somehow
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kbs
ah, nice - thanks kylewm and ben_thatmustbeme . I was starting to tinker with creating signed tokens - so in principle one could validate them directly with public keys from the associated site. eg: I submit a signed token with "iss"="https://kbsriram.com" and an endpoint can validate it from a suitable pubkey rel tag on kbsriram.com
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kbs
(This potentially reduces the dependence on other sites to validate identity)
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ben_thatmustbeme
just a cursory reading of some archives. seems that curl itself supports setting mime type, but php_curl does not
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kylewm
aaronpk: so you download the file to a temporary location from IG, and then upload it via micropub, right? could the temporary filename just have an extension added to it?
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aaronpk
I wonder if that's how php curl figured out the mime type
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aaronpk
figures
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ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk, i'm guessing you are using php_curl not just curl from a bash script or anything.
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aaronpk
ah I'm using http://php.net/tempnam which I believe generates a filename with no extension
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aaronpk
i'll just tack on .jpg to that
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kylewm
oh that'd work great!
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aaronpk
wanna give it a shot?
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ben_thatmustbeme
kylewm you can always use finfo to get the type after
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aaronpk
ok it's live
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kylewm
lol, that was fast and worked :) thanks aaronpk!
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aaronpk
nice!!
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aaronpk
that "test" button sure comes in handy!
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kylewm
yes, otherwise you would see lots of pictures of my coffee
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ben_thatmustbeme
so as a token endpoint all i have to do is pass those 5 post values on to the auth endpoint and it will return me the me and scope in the body?
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kylewm
kbs: I'm not quite understanding how pub key/private key comes into play? unless the micropub client wants to verify that the token actually came from the person it thinks it came from
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aaronpk
the idea with signed tokens is that they can be verified without an API request
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kbs
kylewm: rough thought is actually around ACL-based access to portions of your site. Ie, you want to allow some set of people access to a part of your site
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kbs
based on a token they give you.
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kbs
kylewm: you can lookup the issuer of the token, go back to their site, and validate the token - which allows for identity validation without needing to (say) get into g+ etc
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aaronpk
kbs: careful to not conflate the idea of signed tokens with the idea of access control in general
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kbs
hm - wouldn't access control fundamentally depend on identity validation, which presumably signatures offer?
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aaronpk
yes but there's more than one way to skin the cat
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kbs
agreed
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kbs
that's why I was wondering about whether signature checking (implemented by the cat skinners who choose to do it that way) would allow for identity validation as well
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kylewm
so you would essentially do login by saying "hey prove to me you are who you say you are by signing something", then verify the signed thing against their site's rel=pgp-key ?
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kbs
kylewm: right - [which is the same function that JWT also does at the moment]
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kylewm
mmm, but kylewm.com signs the JWT with its private key, the user's key doesn't come into play at all. that's where i'm confused
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kbs
so the use-case [to start with] is that you have a portion of your site that I could access
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kbs
if I proved my identity
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kbs
I start by creating a signed JWT (signed with my private key of course) and pass that to a GET request on that protected section of your site
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kbs
(ie - your site gets that token only at that point). The creation of the initial signed JWT token by me would be done on my own site, or thorouh a local app
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kylewm
ok I'm with you now
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aaronpk
I guess I'm unclear what advantage that gives over how it's currently implemented by others using IndieAuth + session cookies
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kbs
not much - other than it possibly allows logins to occur without needing g+ and other sites
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aaronpk
ok so not relying on silos can also be solved by your site becoming its own OAuth provider
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aaronpk
which is what rel=authorization_endpoint does (whether it points to indieauth.com or your own site, same thing)
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kbs
hm. *thinking* I'm probably missing some connecting dots :)
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aaronpk
maybe I should make another reference authorization endpoint that's super simple and just uses password auth
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ben_thatmustbeme
so minor question, i'm guessing the idea of the scope bit is basically saying that by authorizing this application to post (which G+ sees as authorizing indieweb to post to G+) i'm saying that I'm authorizing this app to post on my site?
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aaronpk
as a demonstration of an auth server that doesn't require silos
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aaronpk
ben_thatmustbeme: the idea with scope is that your micropub endpoint can verify that the token generated is authorized to post to your site
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aaronpk
which lets you generate tokens that can do other things
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ben_thatmustbeme
i guess for my code it really doesn't matter, i am really only concerned with the ME bit,
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aaronpk
like maybe you want to try out barnaby's note interface, but yuo don't want to let his app post syndications for you. your micropub endpoint could require that in order to syndicate automatically, the token must include the "syndication" scope
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aaronpk
arrived at computer history museum!
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Loqi
yay!
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ben_thatmustbeme
so basically when i try to post to the micropub endpoint, i look up to make sure they have post ability
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tantek
aaronpk - I'm with you - much better to have a solution that doesn't depend on user-PKI setup which in practice is too much of a pain.
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@tantramar
.@decasteve @guild111 @hjarche That’s what my website/blog is for. #ownyourdata
(twitter.com/_/status/463707411489234945)
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ben_thatmustbeme
cool. turn on a Commodore64 for me.
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kbs
looks forward to notes from https://etherpad.mozilla.org/iiw
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voxpelli
aaronpk: these rel-authorization_endpoint and such – for relmeauth – should all of the linked rel-me profiles be checked for such rels as well=
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tantek
kbs, you find signing stuff with PKI works smoothly for you?
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kbs
tantek: very much so - I have a couple of apps that my family and friends use
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kbs
it's not PKI - but it's private-key based crypto underneath
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kylewm
kbs: you'll have to show tantek that android app at HWC some time, it is slick
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tantek
kbs - ok, good to know, I'll keep listening and try to understand better.
caseorganic joined the channel
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@Mfecka
I merely signed up to Twitter so that I can use it for the abomination known as `Web sign-in' aka `IndieAuth'. Next, Github (same reason).
(twitter.com/_/status/463674583879782400)
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kbs
sure thing - think the main reason it works is that it's a mobile app, and the word crypto doesn't show up anywhere - it's a fairly simple 'share this photo/status' with so-and-so. That's about all it does
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tantek
kbs - so it's a photo-messaging app?
#
kbs
tantek: pretty much, in use. Mostly photos, occasional video.
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kbs
Content gets stored on each other's dropbox/gdrive accounts encrypted
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kbs
and is pulled down to the local device and decrypted there.
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kbs
from the user's point of view, it's a very basic share-this with that-person(s) sort of thing.
#
voxpelli
tantek: RelMeAuth – is it specifically meant to be used with OAuth or with any standard auth mechanism one can find on rel-me-consolidated profiles?
#
tantek
it's meant to ephemerally delegate auth to whoever the publisher wants to (via rel=me), which is typically OAuth
#
voxpelli
so it would make sense if this new non-silo auth that has been brainstormed in eg. auth-brainstorming would be used there as well I presume?
#
tantek
voxpelli - no it would not
#
voxpelli
why not?
#
tantek
if you have self-auth, you don't need to relmeauth to anything.
#
tantek
so "used there as well" makes no sense
#
voxpelli
I need relmeauth if I want to keep my consolidated profile DRY
#
tantek
those two have nothing to do with each other
#
tantek
rel=me can be used to consolidate your profile yes
#
tantek
relmeauth is only for using 3rd parties to ephemerally authenticate yourself as your domain.
#
voxpelli
I'm thinking that if I have three blogs with micropub on all of them, consolidated with rel-me, then I should just have to specify auth-details on one of them
#
tantek
oh - *more than one* personal site?
#
tantek
once you involve micropub you're involving a different use-case
#
tantek
you've entered the same cognitive dissonance that was confusing aaronpk a few days ago
#
tantek
no matter how many blogs you have, it makes more sense to "auth" as your primary domain name, whatever you choose that to be
#
voxpelli
okay, but surely I can have multiple personal profiles reflecting different perspectives of my online identity?
#
tantek
and as long as that domain has its own self-auth, then again, you don't need relmeauth
#
tantek
voxpelli but that's even more confusing
#
tantek
you're making up a super complicated example
#
tantek
multiple personal sites, multiple personal identities etc.
#
tantek
ain't nobody got time for that.™ ;)
#
voxpelli
I've got that case already
#
tantek
and you've made sense of it all somehow?
#
voxpelli
voxpelli.com is my personal blog, kodfabrik.se is my professional profile – none is more dominant than the other
#
voxpelli
they reflect different parts of me, but none reflects it more than the other
#
tantek
perhaps you can document this on http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Kodfabrik.se and how/why you use your separate sites and identities.
#
tantek
it's non-obvious enough to merit explicit documentation
#
voxpelli
I can try
#
tantek
interesting that you chose to link "voxpelli" on http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people to User:Kodfabrik.se rather than voxpelli.com
#
tantek
that seems to show a bit of confusion
#
voxpelli
kodfabrik.se is my OpenID domain and the wiki couldn't resolve the rel-me link from voxpelli.com to there
#
tantek
ah, you're using a separate /about page on voxpelli.com to rel-me link to providers
#
tantek
that's the piece that I think is not supported in indieauth implementation(s) yet
#
tantek
the use of a separate /about sub-page
#
voxpelli
yeah, one needs a more complicated lookup mechanism like my relspider then
#
tantek
voxpelli - the subpage feature is part of the RelMeAuth spec, just not yet supported
#
tantek
you could for now just use a <link> tag if you don't want to put a visible link on your home page
#
tantek
<link rel="me" href="https://twitter.com/voxpelli" />
#
tantek
or github etc.
#
voxpelli
yeah, I built https://github.com/voxpelli/relspider completely around that and experimented quite a bit with crawling complex such identities
#
voxpelli
and that's why I'm wondering about these things as well because that crawling could be extended to also fetch info about new auth mechanisms like these
#
voxpelli
to get subpage-support into an indieauth like tool
#
kylewm
is IndieAuth simply a RelMeAuth implementation or is the relationship more complicated?
#
voxpelli
kylewm: it started as a RelMeAuth implementation, now it does some more things I think
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kbs
seems to have trodden some well-trodden path with lindy and relspider :)
#
tantek
voxpelli: could use some help with https://github.com/themattharris/RelMeAuth/ also - that's what I use as my RelMeAuth implementation rather than IndieAuth - for my own site.
#
tantek
I've got a test version deployed here http://tantek.com/relmeauth/ , and ever since Twitter's 1.1 and website/t.co changes it's been a bit broken :(
#
voxpelli
tantek: my idea is that relspider can work as a web service which tools like that one can fetch more complicated identity graphs from instead of or in addition to their own lookups
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#
tantek
voxpelli: minor nit, your twitter profile link at http://voxpelli.com/about should use https
#
voxpelli
tantek: thanks, fixed
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voxpelli
tantek: there's some thoughts, now it's time to go home from work here and find some food
#
tantek
sounds good. priorities! :)
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#
kodfabrik.se
edited /User:Kodfabrik.se (+0) "/* Indie web setup */"
(view diff)
paulcp and jsilvestre joined the channel
#
tantek
clicks the twtr.io link to see what the actual link is in the tweet
Sebastien-L joined the channel
#
tantek
hmm - the IIW contingent seems strangely absent from IRC and the Etherpad.
#
snarfed
ah well. live note taking isn't for everyone
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tantek
looking forward to KevinMarks's live note-taking via his site
#
tantek.com
edited /App_Links (+6) "/* Criticism */ this -> App Links"
(view diff)
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gRegor`
What's IIW?
#
kylewm
independent identity workshop
#
tantek
gRegor`: it's a semi-regular internet identity brainstorming and support group that charges hundreds of dollars per attendee. ;)
#
gRegor`
Ah, interesting
#
gRegor`
Ha!
#
bnvk
dang it, I wish I was on the west coast and could attend
#
bnvk
looks like a really worthwhile event
#
tantek
bnvk, curious what makes you say that - besides hanging out with aaronpk, kevinmarks, benwerd, erinjo etc.
#
tantek
snarfed, does "workshop" imply work gets done? ;)
#
snarfed
tantek: ? got me…
#
snarfed
just pasted a link
#
bnvk
tantek: yes, obviously the attendees- the fact that a high number of people I respect are going to be there- also the topics
#
tantek
bnvk - you coming to IndieWebCamp 2014 (East or West) ?
#
tantek.com
edited /2014/ (+1) "east & west!"
(view diff)
#
gRegor`
I'm tentatively coming to IWC west
#
bnvk
tantek: yah, i'm definitely planning on the Berkman East coast one, if UK happens again I'll be there :)
#
tantek
bnvk - UK is happening again
#
tantek
but sooner than that
#
tantek
http://indiewebcamp.com/2014 is going to be in BOTH Portland & NYC
#
gRegor`
I want to wait until it's definite. Need to check a few things.
#
tantek
with simultaneous sessions
#
tantek
http://indiewebcamp.com/2014 will be the biggest - if you're looking to hang out with a high number of people you respect ;)
#
bnvk
hehe
#
tantek
is updating the Guest List now
#
bnvk
I'd really love to make it to that, but timing & dates I'm not sure if makes sense for me + costs of flights to west coast are a bit more
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#
tantek
bnvk - what about flights to NYC?
#
bnvk
is there another one there coming up?
#
tantek
IndieWebCamp 2014 is being done in two locations :D
#
bnvk
OH, it's on the same date…
#
gRegor`
This is interesting: Vellum, a reading layer for Twitter: http://blog.nytlabs.com/2014/04/25/vellum-a-reading-layer-for-your-twitter-feed/
KevinMarks joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme
i just need to get a telepresence machine and send that, haha
#
aaronpk
#iiw doing fast intros of name + affiliation
#
tantek
(1 hour later)
#
aaronpk
it's being timed
#
aaronpk
will report back soon
#
gRegor`
Perhaps of interest to people working on /feed-reader
#
tantek.com
edited /2014/Guest_List (+312) "Creators East and West"
(view diff)
#
aaronpk
so far my favorite is "Dave Crocker, Email"
#
KevinMarks
I have a chromebook to be the telepresence machine for ciberch and others
#
tantek
will fix /Events now
#
tantek
thanks for the reminder bnvk
#
KevinMarks
should we use hangouts or what?
#
tantek
talky.io?
#
bnvk
hrm, flights to NYC are a bit cheaper
#
tantek
exactly
#
ben_thatmustbeme
that would be cool
#
tantek
we're dividing and conquering
#
ben_thatmustbeme
i'm just going to wait for the Cambridge one
#
bnvk
who's going to be in NYC?
#
aaronpk
introduced myself as "Aaron Parecki, IndieWebCamp and oauth.net" <- that should turn a few heads
#
tantek
bnvk - NYTimes is hosting IWC 2014 East
#
tantek
aaronpk, NICE
#
KevinMarks
oauth,net++
#
bnvk
hehe
#
tantek
aaronpk - let's see if anyone just introduces themselves by URL
#
ben_thatmustbeme
haha, that would be cool
#
aaronpk
nobody
#
aaronpk
6 minutes 50 seconds
#
tantek
so much for living "internet identity" ;)
#
KevinMarks
we introduced ourselves as #indieweb (the # is silent)
#
aaronpk
we're not all sitting next to each other so "indieweb" came up a few times around the circle
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#
@kevinmarks
#indieweb people at #iiw: me, @aaronpk @benwerd @erinjo and whoever wants to sign up over the next few days
(twitter.com/_/status/463731496247758848)
#
@tantramar
Ok, so Tantek Çelik (@t) favourited one of my tweets. Total coincidence: I had http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard open at the time. :) #ownyourdata
(twitter.com/_/status/463732032661889024)
indie-visitor joined the channel
#
Loqi
Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
#
tantek
welcome bretc!
#
bretttttttt
hypervisor is down, lol
#
tantek
what is hypervisor?
#
Loqi
hypervisor is down
#
bretttttttt
its bret from portland
#
tantek
why all the tttt's?
#
bretttttttt
hypervisor is the thing that runs my VPS that runs my bouncer
#
bretttttttt
because bret and bretc are registered and I dont have the password
#
bretttttttt
basically my tower of IRC software failed for the moment and Im on webchat XD
#
@aaronpk
Great to put faces to a bunch of familiar names at #iiw! Looking forward to chatting! #indieweb (http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2014/05/06/1/iiw-indieweb)
(twitter.com/_/status/463732738940350464)
#
bretttttttt
i like the guy fawkes mask wearing dog logo thats rad
#
tantek.com
edited /Events (+2934) "move IWC NYC to past, 2014 is East & West!, add HWC 2014-05-21 2014-06-04 2014-06-18, bolden dates"
(view diff)
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#
bretttttttt
how is iiw going?
#
aaronpk
about to create the unconference board
#
KevinMarks
odd, getting empty replies from wordpress.com with indiewebify.me
#
KevinMarks
any ideas?
#
KevinMarks
do we have sessions planned?
#
aaronpk
i'm planning an indieauth session
#
aaronpk
trying to figure out how to frame it for the audience here
#
KevinMarks
an #indieweb stream?
#
tantek
KevinMarks: I'm not seeing any sessions in https://etherpad.mozilla.org/iiw
#
KevinMarks
'cos we're still doing process explanations
#
tantek
aaronpk - perhaps a recruiting session?
#
tantek
"The IndieWeb Wants YOU"
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aaronpk
that sounds creepy lol
#
KevinMarks
intro to #indieweb is worth doing
#
tantek
there's got to be people there that already get the intro, and just want to connect up and become more indieweb themselves
#
aaronpk
so all session notes get compiled from word docs and are distributed as a PDF via email at the end
#
KevinMarks
OK, intro to #indieweb
#
KevinMarks
there is a wiki too
#
tantek
aaronpk - wat
#
aaronpk
the wiki just says to do that
#
KartikPrabhu
PDF via email!!!!
#
KevinMarks
advanced #indieweb
#
bretttttttt
#doc2pdf.exe
#
tantek
aaronpk, please tell me that's a joke
#
tantek
citation?
#
tantek
screenshot?
#
tantek
something?
#
bretttttttt
KevinMarks: I guess you win this TIME!
#
KevinMarks
not a well-used wiki
#
bretttttttt
(your point about word vs markdown)
#
tantek
"When notes are complete please email this document as an attachment "
#
gRegor`
Lulz
#
bretttttttt
wait, but there is a wiki RIGHT THERE!
#
bretttttttt
lulz
#
KevinMarks
this may be in response to the wifi here...
#
tantek
so wait, on a *WIKI* they are asking you to take notes in MSWORD and EMAIL them to a bottleneck?
#
tantek
for real?
#
bretttttttt
you can use a text editor before entering it into the wiki
#
bretttttttt
why not just take notes into an email?
#
tantek
I'm just. Wow. No words.
#
bretttttttt
tantek: im predicting a similar rational as to why people didn publish html slides at osfw3c
#
tantek
who is Ebgross?
smagali joined the channel
#
smagali
'ello
#
KevinMarks
hiya stef
#
tantek
welcome smagali!
#
bretttttttt
hey smagali
#
KevinMarks
did you lose a d?
#
tantek
smagali: add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC_People :)
#
KevinMarks
benwerd has intor to indieweb, aaron has indieauth, I have "Join the indieweb" - practical session to induct people
#
tantek
KevinMarks: awesome. recruit the best and brightest and most productive.
#
ben_thatmustbeme
yess, more recruits *Evil cackle*
#
KevinMarks
no-one here from facebook or twitter, fewer from google?
chrissaad and snarfed joined the channel
#
kylewm.com
edited /User:Kylewm.com (+17) "/* personal site */ finished original-post-discovery"
(view diff)
#
KevinMarks
did anyone say yahoo?
#
brettt
gesundheit
#
smagali
@tanktek surely I have to have been here twice before I can be considered 'regular' ;)
iangreenleaf joined the channel
#
kylewm
articles about (partial) github silo-quits, should those go on /git, /github, or /silo-quits?
#
KevinMarks
post-death identity management
#
tantek
smagali: or invited to do so ;)
#
brettt
kylewm: silo quits I think
#
snarfed
KevinMarks: +1 to that. underserved problem
#
KevinMarks
covert redirects for xrls
#
ben_thatmustbeme
morbid thought: digital tombstone to a person
#
@benwerd
RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb people at #iiw: me, @aaronpk @benwerd @erinjo and whoever wants to sign up over the next few days
(twitter.com/_/status/463737142468812802)
#
smagali
@Kevin, felt that first hand only last week: https://www.facebook.com/scott.ellsworth.94?fref=ts
#
kylewm
tantek: brettt: maybe /code ? this is more practical than github-rejection http://danger.computer/2014/04/28/gitlab-part-one
LauraJ joined the channel
#
brettt
kylewm: maybe in silo quits and http://indiewebcamp.com/gitlab
#
kylewm
okie, thanks
#
brettt
since it has info on getting up and running and then crashing
#
kylewm
heh, yes
#
@kevinmarks
#iiw @benwerd: I'm one of the indie posse here today - I'm doing an Introduction to the #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/463737795878879232)
#
@kevinmarks
#iiw @aaronpk: I'm doing a session on indieauth, making your own site an identity provider #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/463737926845620224)
#
@kevinmarks
#iiw @kevinmarks: I have a practical session "Join the #indieweb" - get your personal indie website set up
(twitter.com/_/status/463738091355009024)
#
@benwerd
RT @kevinmarks: #iiw @kevinmarks: I have a practical session "Join the #indieweb" - get your personal indie website set up
(twitter.com/_/status/463738535934058496)
#
@benwerd
RT @kevinmarks: #iiw @aaronpk: I'm doing a session on indieauth, making your own site an identity provider #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/463738548856705024)
#
KevinMarks
self-transcribing is a new kind of selfdogfooding
#
@aaronpk
RT @kevinmarks: #iiw @aaronpk: I'm doing a session on indieauth, making your own site an identity provider #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/463738658533539841)
#
kylewm
lol at “one of the indie posse”, nice benwerd
#
kylewm.com
created /GitLab (+352) "added danger.computer article"
(view diff)
#
@benwerd
Very interested in talking about #indieweb, and open source consumer web products. #iiw
(twitter.com/_/status/463739212043259904)
bnvk joined the channel
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tantek.com
edited /Events (+22) "/* Upcoming */ highlight the main event of the year"
(view diff)
#
tantek
kylewm: /code is for the "code" post type, that is, posting code on your own site.
#
bnvk
does anyone else find it slightly odd that we use #indieweb on Twitter, but there is no #indieweb IRC chan?
#
kbs
runs away from all #indie-* nomenclature topics :)
#
Loqi
kbs has 7 karma
#
brettt
aaronpk: does Loqi have https://github.com/aranasaurus/zenircbot-meme ?
#
Loqi
woot!
#
tantek
bnvk - nah, domain-name -> irc channel
#
@craigburton
@kevinmarks: #iiw @aaronpk: I'm doing a session on indieauth, making your own site an identity provider #indieweb” Love it
(twitter.com/_/status/463741305374650369)
#
tantek
a-ha!
#
tantek.com
created /irc_people (+24) "r"
(view diff)
#
tantek.com
created /IRC_people (+24) "r"
(view diff)
#
tantek
!tell smagali now that you've joined a second time, you should definitely add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC_People
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
tantek joined the channel
#
KevinMarks
so, what was the thinking on webcast?
#
KevinMarks
I have a chromebook poised
#
tantek
KevinMarks: is etherpad blocked there?
#
tantek
let's see you can textcast before webcast ;)
#
KevinMarks
I'm going to textcast using noterlive
#
tantek
how about talky.io/iiw ?
emmak joined the channel
#
KevinMarks
ok remote peeps hangouts? talky? vote now
#
tantek
i say talky
benwerd and KartikPrabhu joined the channel
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kbs
would be very glad to just quietly lurk and see livenotes/blogs whenever convenient for any of you
#
benwerd
logging in now - only just got on the wifi
#
kylewm.com
edited /silo-quits (+1145) "/* Silo quitters 2014 */ added self and Michael Garvin article"
(view diff)
#
tantek
mutes self on talky.io. I'm the red blob thing. :)
#
kylewm
bnvk: confirm that I found the #indieweb vs. #indiewebcamp distinction confusing when initially reading about it
#
tantek
I see KevinMarks!
#
tantek
I'm the red blob :)
#
tantek
but no audio
#
KevinMarks
no audio?
#
KevinMarks
we tried using aaron's camera+mic
#
tantek
KevinMarks: I can't hear you guys
#
tantek
can you hear me?
#
tantek
KevinMarks, Just muted myself
#
brettt
what is the big red vido box?
#
KevinMarks
big red is tntek's sticker over hsi camera
#
brettt
also KevinMarks not sure were getting any audio
#
KevinMarks
what's johannes's twitter handle?
bnvk_ joined the channel
#
tantek
brettt: I'm the big red. That's an EFF privacy sticker :D
#
brettt
haha
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kbs
haha :)
#
brettt
ok
#
brettt
tantek: are you getting audio from KevinMarks ?
#
kbs
uses the ductape privacy sticker :)
ciberch joined the channel
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KevinMarks
i had the speaker muted
#
KevinMarks
can you hear anythign yet?
#
KevinMarks
hi Monica
#
ciberch
Hi @KevinMarks where to join for #iiw
#
brettt
no :( but tantek should confirm
#
ben_thatmustbeme
did i miss the talky link
#
KartikPrabhu
kylewm, bnvk: about indieweb vs indiewebcamp here is Joschi's reply ot my post http://kartikprabhu.com/article/concurrence-cooperation##defined+by+participating
#
KevinMarks
we're having a "can you hear us yet" moment
#
KevinMarks
talky.io/iiw
smagali joined the channel
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ben_thatmustbeme
i cannot talk/be seen as i'm at work, but wouldn't mind listening it
#
ciberch
joining...
#
Loqi
smagali: tantek left you a message 11 minutes ago: now that you've joined a second time, you should definitely add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC_People
#
kbs
benwerd++ for ongoing notes on indiebox talk at https://etherpad.mozilla.org/iiw - thanks!
#
Loqi
benwerd has 15 karma
#
tantek
hey I see ciberch!
#
ben_thatmustbeme
oh there it is
#
KevinMarks
I can see monica
#
tantek
and audio too!
#
tantek
I hear you ciberch. I'm the red blob.
dariusdunlap joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme
hi monica. yes i'm a black screen
#
KevinMarks
can you hear ben?
#
ciberch
I cant hear :(
#
brettt
KevinMarks: still not getiting audio
#
ben_thatmustbeme
i heard monica
#
KevinMarks
ok I'll unlug aaron's cam
#
ben_thatmustbeme
i can't hear anything else
#
kylewm
KartikPrabhu: bnvk: and I think I actually joined #indieweb on irc first
#
KevinMarks
is that any better?
#
ben_thatmustbeme
still no audio
#
bnvk
hehe
#
KevinMarks
OK, I'll try the mac instead
#
@benwerd
Listening to the official crowdfunding launch of the Indie Box: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/indie-box-let-s-bring-our-data-home #indieweb #iiw
(twitter.com/_/status/463745322959654912)
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ben_thatmustbeme
ahh, its kevin
#
ciberch
yay audio !
#
Loqi
woot
#
ben_thatmustbeme
you scared me
#
kylewm
KartikPrabhu: nice response from Joschi
#
brettt
KevinMarks: Audio!!!
#
tantek
audio!
#
ben_thatmustbeme
now why am i not getting audio?
#
KartikPrabhu
kylewm: yeah. I hope he writes his linger post so this is sort of cleared up
#
KartikPrabhu
s/linger/longer
#
Loqi
KartikPrabhu meant to say: kylewm: yeah. I hope he writes his longer post so this is sort of cleared up
#
KevinMarks
i have monica and 3 black frames
#
ben_thatmustbeme
i can barely hear anything
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ben_thatmustbeme
yeah, sorry, at work, no microphone
#
aaronpk
it's pretty loud in here too, like lots of background noise
#
KevinMarks
this room is not ideal
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KevinMarks
the next sessions are in an enclosed room,
chrissaad joined the channel
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smagali
kevin, your session is at 12, right?
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ben_thatmustbeme
i can't really hear anything worth while sadly
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KevinMarks
ben is note-taking like a demon
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benwerd
doffs cap
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aaronpk
the next ones will be better cause they'll be in an enclosed room
#
ben_thatmustbeme
oh weird, now I can
#
aaronpk
that's kevinmarks on the floor setting up the camera
#
ben_thatmustbeme
had to leave and rejoin
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tantek
question for j12t: who else is using an indiebox at home?
#
brettt
what is it running? not debian?
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aaronpk
darn I really need a way to posse photos to twitter *right now*
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aaronpk
manual posse ftw
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bnvk
nice
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kylewm
“Can’t be evil” – great name for a session
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bnvk
glad Johannes is doing a crowdfunding campaing
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bnvk
campaign, rather
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tantek
Is that "Can't be evil: lies Googlers tell themselves" ? ;)
#
aaronpk
pretty sure it's a not-so-subtle jab at google
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kylewm
I was hoping, ‘build systems on more than good intentions’
#
brettt
wow, great work Johannes! He should talk with the pump.io crowd. I know they were interested in doing plug servers
#
aaronpk
snarfed: does bridgy posse photos with twitter too?
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aaronpk
i could really use that right about now
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snarfed
aaronpk: not yet, sadly
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brettt
aaronpk: manual posse works in a pickle, given 5 - 10 minuts XD
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snarfed
+1 to manual posse!
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tantek
yes! phillips lightbulb!
#
tantek
go aaronpk!
#
snarfed
brettt: 5-10m? whoa. what takes so long?
#
brettt
slow computer, fixing things that break, uploading the imag to flicker for full rez
#
aaronpk
brettt: got it down to about 1 minute per photo
#
brettt
off of a phone
indie-visitor joined the channel
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ben_thatmustbeme
another black box appears
#
KevinMarks
hi indie-visitor - do /nick [yourname] to change
#
indie-visitor
crap its just me again
#
KevinMarks
now 4 black boxes
#
ben_thatmustbeme
i think i'm the widescreen black box, haha
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KevinMarks
johannes no longer has a head
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bretttt
aaronpk: ff crashed
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ben_thatmustbeme
rather interesting watching the video, seeing the etherpad and talking on here. Feel much more connected
#
ben_thatmustbeme
especially since he just pointed to the camera and said my name :)
#
KevinMarks
we are your peripherals
#
KevinMarks
heh. benwerd is sitting next to the cam
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ben_thatmustbeme
yeah, i figured
#
benwerd
I am everywhere
#
benwerd
the Lawnmower Man
snarfed joined the channel
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aaronpk
benwerd++ for the ridiculously thorough note taking. i feel like i can't jump in cause i'll interrupt his flow
#
Loqi
benwerd has 16 karma
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kbs
great transcriptions benwerd, thanks
#
tantek
waits for his phone to ring. oh wait.
#
bretttt
benwerd++
#
Loqi
benwerd has 17 karma
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KevinMarks
I could click that skype link again and make it ring, tantek
#
benwerd
aaronpk++ for helping avoid my RSI
#
Loqi
aaronpk has 443 karma
bretttt_ and kevinbae joined the channel
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bretttt
KevinMarks++ for the video :)
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Loqi
KevinMarks has 29 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme
KevinMarks++ I'll second that
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Loqi
too much karma!
#
KevinMarks
aaronpk++ for the better camera+mic
#
KevinMarks
shame my chromebook can't handle mics
#
aaronpk
i knew that would come in handy!
#
aaronpk
laptop mics aren't designed to pick up a full room
#
KevinMarks
I did think of bringing my mic, but it weighs over a kg
hallettj joined the channel
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ben_thatmustbeme
don't know that i would call heartbleed a success story... there were some mistakes that went on
#
@kevinmarks
#iiw @Johannes_Ernst: we don't have an app that is an IDP app @aaronpk: hey, I have one @johannes_ernst: great lets use it
(twitter.com/_/status/463751990364102656)
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brettt
im a little worried 50,000 fixed funding is a bit steep at this point
#
kbs
sorry, can someone fill me in on what an "IDP app" is? Intrusion detection?
#
aaronpk
identity provider
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kbs
oh :) thanks
#
aaronpk
you're gonna hear that a lot around here the next couple days
#
tantek
reminder: Homebrew Website Club THIS WEDNESDAY: http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-05-07-homebrew-website-club and yes we will have IndieWebCamp stickers (cc: ben_thatmustbeme )
bretttt joined the channel
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bnvk
really great job noting things down benwerd :)
#
aaronpk
our notes are gonna blow the rest out of the water once we put them into the word doc and they get turned into a pdf and emailed
#
tantek
aaronpk - please post the notes session by session onto the IndieWebCamp wiki instead
#
aaronpk
definitely
#
KevinMarks
we could add them to the iiw wiki too
#
tantek
and then just put *a URL* in the Word DOC
#
tantek
no seriously
#
tantek
KevinMarks: there's no community on iiw wiki
snarfed joined the channel
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bretttt
can we put it in a super old version of a word doc?
#
aaronpk
isn't it worth actually sending them the full notes though?
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tantek
bretttt: that's called .rtf
#
bretttt
like word 95? there has to be a VM somewhere
#
tantek
aaronpk - no
#
tantek
make a point of it
#
tantek
put ONLY the URL to the notes on the IWC wiki
#
KevinMarks
I have a mac SE image here somehere
#
tantek
and by clicking through from the Word to the PDF to the wiki, they'll get it
#
bretttt
:D even better a mac version
#
ben_thatmustbeme
haha, tantek, thanks but i'm on the wrong coast for that
#
bretttt
can you embed the word doc into a PDF?
#
tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: where are you based?
#
aaronpk
having just discovered that I lost a bunch of photos (not because of a lack of backups, just literally lost) I am coming to the conclusion that the only way to make things persist is to spread copies out all over the place
#
KevinMarks
doesn't have word though, just photoshop and swedish hypercard
#
ben_thatmustbeme
yes, i'll be at the Cambridge one
#
kbs
aaronpk++ :)
#
Loqi
aaronpk has 444 karma
#
aaronpk
apparently I can't even be trusted to keep my own data
#
KevinMarks
LOCKSSS++
#
Loqi
LOCKSSS has 1 karma
#
aaronpk
KevinMarks: we should go over to room H now
#
KevinMarks
aaronpk is 2/3 of the antichrist
#
kbs
benwerd++ awesome notes, much appreciated.
#
tantek
notes macosx util textutil for converting .txt to .rtf >:D
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benwerd
Thanks everyone
#
benwerd
hosting the next one so won't be notetaking
#
benwerd
will resume for kevinmarks's and aaronpk's
#
tantek
is coming up with a command line
#
KevinMarks
I will be noterliving
#
ben_thatmustbeme
yeah, thanks for all the notes
#
KevinMarks
tantek you could run your old website making tool on this mac image
#
bretttt
KevinMarks: aaronpk: you could attach the word doc to a pdf and email that >:) http://www.wikihow.com/Attach-a-File-to-a-PDF-Document
#
tantek
here you go
#
tantek
echo "http://indiewebcamp.com/" | textutil -stdin -output worddoc.rtf -convert rtf
#
tantek
that's how you turn a URL into a Word document with the URL in it
#
tantek
called worddoc.rtf
#
bnvk
you guys, encode the URL in a QR Code, please!!!
#
ciberch
is there a way to search in this room ?
#
tantek
btw the reason to put it on a wiki is so that you can link it after the fact, and edit typos etc.
#
ciberch
I want to see if anyone figured out how to turn the video off for the talky
#
ciberch
self video
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tantek
none of which you can do with MSWORD -> PDF -> email enclosures
#
tantek
let them eat URLs
#
bretttt
ciberch: just dont plug in a web cam?
#
tantek.com
edited /events/2014-05-06-iiw (+269) "command line for making an RTF"
(view diff)
chrissaad and KevinMarks joined the channel
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ben_thatmustbeme
brettt. Until i told it to pretend I had one and give it permission (to one that doesn't even exist) it wouldn't show anything
#
tantek
I see KevinMarks on talky and hear benwerd
#
ciberch
@bretttt its my mac's cam - guess I can see if I can disable on Chrome
#
KevinMarks
switched the cam
#
KevinMarks
I made the mistake of unplugging it and crashed chrome
#
ciberch
Thanks @snarfed that works
#
ben_thatmustbeme
don't talk about the indiephone we'll get tantek fighting with people again. :)
#
@kevinmarks
#iiw @benwerd: we talk a lot in #indieweb about "silos" - dropbox, facebook etc who make money by locking up our data
(twitter.com/_/status/463757519060758528)
#
tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: didn't fight with anyone. just asked people to post notes on their own site instead of Twitter
#
tantek
not sure how asking for a positive is a "fight"
#
@kevinmarks
#iiw @benwerd: #indieweb is about having your own space on the web - your own domain as your primary identity
(twitter.com/_/status/463757774438928384)
#
bretttt
ben_thatmustbeme: i have had that issue before, but it just works today for some reason ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
#
tantek.com
edited /events/2014-05-06-iiw (+155) "realtime, session notes, see also"
(view diff)
#
bretttt
someone taking ntoes?
#
ben_thatmustbeme
i'm just kidding, i'm thinking of the whole mess on twitter the other week
#
@kevinmarks
#iiw @benwerd: the #indieweb goal is for you not to lose anything by not being in the silos, by connecting to them
(twitter.com/_/status/463758011937607680)
#
tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: that "whole" mess was a bunch of folks overreacting to a tweet about posting notes on your own site
#
tantek
so apparently that touched a nerve
#
@NZN
#iiw @benwerd: #indieweb is about having your own space on the web - your own domain as your primary identity
(twitter.com/_/status/463758119164968960)
#
@cubicgarden
RT @kevinmarks: #iiw @benwerd: we talk a lot in #indieweb about "silos" - dropbox, facebook etc who make money by locking up our data
(twitter.com/_/status/463758121786032128)
#
ben_thatmustbeme
oh i know it was an overreaction, was just joking.
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bretttt
benwerd++ great!
#
Loqi
benwerd has 18 karma
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@kevinmarks
#iiw @benwerd: the #indieweb community practices what we preach - we build for our own sites not making standards for other people
(twitter.com/_/status/463758429362737153)
j12t joined the channel
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tantek.com
created /2014-05-06-iiw-indiebox (+9970) "copy notes from the Etherpad"
(view diff)
#
ciberch
oh that reminds me I finally bought ciberch.com @tantek
#
Loqi
does a happy dance!
#
@NZN
#indieweb and #reclaim efforts very aligned @jimgroom
(twitter.com/_/status/463758592487616513)
smagali joined the channel
#
tantek.com
created /IIW (+28) "r to the latest"
(view diff)
#
KevinMarks
I thought you'd get ciber.ch and be swiss
#
bretttt
encoding data into html, because that is the medium of exchange, today
#
ciberch
dammit !
#
ciberch
that would have been cool
#
bretttt
dangint, firefox keeps crashin
#
@kevinmarks
#iiw @benwerd: there are lots of small building blocks that we use to build the #indieweb - microformats are how we add meaning to web pages
(twitter.com/_/status/463758784884506624)
#
smagali
I've got luckyred.cat
#
@kevinmarks
#iiw @benwerd: another building block is webmentions http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention that tell sites when you have linked to them
(twitter.com/_/status/463758971179139072)
#
smagali
means I'll have to commission a catalan translation within 6 months of going live or they take it away
iangreenleaf joined the channel
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@fdevillamil
RT @kevinmarks: #iiw @benwerd: the #indieweb community practices what we preach - we build for our own sites not making standards for other…
(twitter.com/_/status/463759058491965440)
#
@kevinmarks
#iiw @benwerd: by using these buliding blocks we can have likes, retweets, replies, and RSVPs on our own #indieweb sites
(twitter.com/_/status/463759107996913664)
#
ben_thatmustbeme
out of curiosity, how big are these talks? how many people in the room?
#
@kevinmarks
#iiw @benwerd: currently this is mostly about publicly visible data, but we add authentication with https://indieauth.com/
(twitter.com/_/status/463759360926441472)
#
KevinMarks
14 in the room
#
tantek
aaronpk - keep taking notes in the etherpad!
#
bretttt
raise those hands proudly ;)
#
bretttt
ciberch: get on that!
#
@OhhSocialMedia
RT @kevinmarks: #iiw @benwerd: another building block is webmentions http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention that tell sites when you have linked to them
(twitter.com/_/status/463759907640987648)
#
@OhhSocialMedia
RT @kevinmarks: #iiw @benwerd: by using these buliding blocks we can have likes, retweets, replies, and RSVPs on our own #indieweb sites
(twitter.com/_/status/463759921343778816)
#
ciberch
saweet
#
@OhhSocialMedia
RT @kevinmarks: #iiw @benwerd: currently this is mostly about publicly visible data, but we add authentication with https://indieauth.com/
(twitter.com/_/status/463759933784064000)
#
ciberch
Do you guys have a git repository to fork for the starter web server app to run
smagali joined the channel
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bretttt
holy crap, I think thats the way to state it
#
@kevinmarks
#iiw @aaronpk: there is an opportunity for "twitter apps" for your own site - use other people's apps to post to your own #indieweb site
(twitter.com/_/status/463760373683077120)
#
bretttt
"Twitter apps for posting your own site"
#
bretttt
because man, people loved their twitter apps
#
@HypernovaIO
We make Homesteading for the #indieweb.
(twitter.com/_/status/463760494688342017)
#
KevinMarks
ciberch - idno is one example.
#
aaronpk
are you guys hearing the live stream ok then?
#
KevinMarks
I have a static site...
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ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk, yes, just fine
#
aaronpk
KevinMarks: bretttt is working on that!
#
ciberch
I can migrate it to use indie auth
#
ciberch
instead of fb auth
#
bnvk
URL to livestream?
#
bretttt
KevinMarks: are you hosting with github pages? or something similar?
#
tantek
hilarious to be taking notes for a session from *home*
#
ben_thatmustbeme
bnvk talky.io/iiw
#
bnvk
ben_thatmustbeme++
#
Loqi
ben_thatmustbeme has 3 karma
#
bretttt
if you have a website that rebuilds on a push my project will fit closely
#
ben_thatmustbeme
hey bnvk, what a nice face
#
aaronpk
i need to carry my tiny projector around apparently
#
bretttt
invisiwave bnvk
#
tantek.com
edited /events/2014-05-06-iiw (+143) "Remote participation"
(view diff)
#
bretttt
camera is not plugged in
#
tantek
aaronpk - darn - I have a pico projector you could have borrowed!
#
aaronpk
yeah didn't think about that!
#
tantek
so is the IIW crowd now considered Generation 2?
#
bnvk
freezing my talky video to not add to lag
#
tantek
bnvk - same here. and I muted too.
#
aaronpk
talky needs a broadcast option bear
#
@MozillaContent
interesting discussions so far include #IndieWeb #PersonalClouds #Identity & #CloudNames
(twitter.com/_/status/463761732834324480)
smagali joined the channel
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KevinMarks
ben's head
#
tantek
hey benwerd - note that you receive federated RSVPs from other platforms too!
#
KevinMarks
he did say the rsvp came from fb
#
tantek
and no email list! :)
#
bretttt
What is #CloudNames?
#
@kevinmarks
#iiw @benwerd: it's an open community - there's an IRC channel: http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC and a wikihttp://indiewebcamp.com - all are welcome
(twitter.com/_/status/463762718479372288)
#
bretttt
definately
#
@NZN
RT @kevinmarks: #iiw @benwerd: it's an open community - there's an IRC channel: http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC and a wikihttp://indiewebcamp.com - …
(twitter.com/_/status/463763132301975552)
#
bretttt
i have moved a number of things back home off my VPS recently
#
bretttt
the connection is fast enough finally
#
bretttt
the key to home serving is fast internet
#
bretttt
i have found
#
@NZN
RT @kevinmarks: #iiw @benwerd: it's an open community - there's an IRC channel: http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC and a wiki http://indiewebcamp.com - …
(twitter.com/_/status/463763271930355713)
#
ciberch
kylewm: got it maybe someone has their website's code on gtihub and can link us
#
tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: nice going with using your domain name as your name in Etherpad
#
tantek
just changed mine to tantek.com
#
ciberch
I can help with a ruby version of a starter app
#
@kevinmarks
#iiw @benwerd: with silo'd sites there is na ethnocentric design as they're all made here in SF - indieweb is less SV dominated
(twitter.com/_/status/463763403287166977)
#
bretttt
ciberch: my site is hosted entirely in github pages, http://bret.io/ please excuse the jankeyness
#
kylewm
ciberch: some, not all of the projects here are OS http://indiewebcamp.com/projects
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ciberch
awesome looking now
#
tantek
ah yes, the "mainstream" question
#
bretttt
ciberch: also http://notenoughneon.com/ has its entire codebase on github https://github.com/notenoughneon/neonblog
#
kylewm
emmak++
#
Loqi
emmak has 1 karma
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@kevinmarks
#iiw @aaronpk: there is a page on the wiki for wider adoption: http://indiewebcamp.com/generations (there's a page for everything)
(twitter.com/_/status/463763867542118400)
#
bretttt
ciberch: I think idno is entirely on github as well
#
bnvk
it's awesome hearing everyone's voice- miss y'all
#
bretttt
miss you bnvk! come to portland for IWC!
#
bnvk
bretttt: :)
#
ciberch
Nice Kevin :)
#
bretttt
Im interested in eventually playing with home serving and caching service
#
bretttt
s
smagali joined the channel
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@AAinslie
RT @kevinmarks: #iiw @benwerd: we talk a lot in #indieweb about "silos" - dropbox, facebook etc who make money by locking up our data
(twitter.com/_/status/463764353330974720)
#
bretttt
its key to eventually get that service data INTO the html file itself. working on that now
#
tantek
ok I seriously don't understand the "unhosted" handwaving
#
tantek
concrete example please?
#
bretttt
unhosted is cool model. would love to see more examples
#
tantek
with URL?
#
tantek
bretttt: I don't understand it enough to say why it is cool or not
#
bnvk
tantek: so my plan was to be in Berlin in June- perhaps jancborchardt will be around and perhaps we could do a mini-IWC on the same day as East / West... thoughts?
#
tantek
lots of handwaving here
#
tantek
"personal cloud server"
#
tantek
KevinMarks, example of an actual "unhosted" site? a pile of code and conference foo is not that interesting
#
bretttt
tantek: I went to one of their meetups. They are looking at ways to build apps so that the app code lives on a server, and you data lives in your browser. It works, but is totally novel so not many people work on it
#
tantek
why would I trust app code on some random server?
#
tantek
sounds not very indieweb
#
bretttt
its similar to micropub
#
aaronpk
i was going to say, similar idea
#
aaronpk
using other people's apps to post content to your own site
#
kylewm
i started out wanting to write an unhosted micropub client, but cross-origin restrictions got in the way
#
bnvk
I've seen an unhosted todo list app that ran on my iPhone and used localStorage... there was an option to sync to remote servers or apps as well IIRC
#
bretttt
kylewm: thats what I ran into a bit of. browser security is confuuusing
j12t joined the channel
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kylewm
“6 different programming languages” ?
#
aaronpk
btw kevin is tweeting a bunch on the #iiw hashtag so you can follow more notes there https://twitter.com/search?f=realtime&q=%23iiw+kevinmarks&src=typd
#
aaronpk
kylewm: that was a slight exaggeration :)
#
aaronpk
maybe 6 different programming environments, cause i was doing raw php and someone else was using a php framework, i forget what
#
kylewm
ha ok :) piqued my PLT curiosity
#
tantek
I was using CASSIS+PHP
#
bretttt
idono -> known?
#
tantek
withknown.com?
#
kylewm
i keep wanting to ask what the most “esoteric” language people do indieweb stuff in, but obviously it’s CASSIS :)
#
ben_thatmustbeme
oh, had he announced the name before now?
#
snarfed
bad news for app.net, they're pushing it more into open source and starting to wind down the company. http://blog.app.net/2014/05/06/app-net-state-of-the-union/
dariusdunlap joined the channel
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tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: name change
#
bretttt
CASSIS is just JS and PHP, so actually maybe the most common! kylewm
#
tantek
mysql--
#
Loqi
mysql has -1 karma
#
ben_thatmustbeme
yeah, i knew it was going to change, i take it this is the first time the new name is mentioned
#
bretttt
lol tantek
#
aaronpk
wow mysql has only -1 karma?
#
bretttt
snarfed: :(
#
tantek
why :( - I see an opportunity for some app.net fan to fork it and install it on their own site!
#
Loqi
mysql has -2 karma
#
aaronpk
now we can go in and add webmention support
#
KevinMarks
then I might actually use it
#
snarfed
oh man. what do i want even less than another silo account? an entire instance i have to maintain myself
#
snarfed
no thanks
#
aaronpk
snarfed++
#
Loqi
snarfed has 15 karma
#
ben_thatmustbeme
benwerd goes through a roll call of indieweb software
#
KevinMarks
which I failed to tweet
#
kylewm
satellite HWC in MV is a good idea in case other conference people want to attend too!
#
jancborchardt
bnvk: if it’s going to be end of June (like 26–29) I’m in! The other parts of June there’s ownCloud workweek and vacation
#
tantek
great job benwerd!
#
tantek
shall we do a talky.io for Wednesday night?
#
ben_thatmustbeme
great talk benwerd
#
jancborchardt
btw bnvk you coming to http://decentralizecamp.com/ in Düsseldorf in 2 weeks?
#
@kevinmarks
#iiw @benwerd: do come to Homebrew Website Club meetings on wednesdays in SF, Portland, Chichago + sunnyvale http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-05-07-homebrew-website-club
(twitter.com/_/status/463768455271821312)
#
bnvk
jancborchardt: nah, I wish I was, but apartments, leases, budgets, etc...
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bnvk
jancborchardt: the US event is on June 28, so that should work... I need to book my plane tickets and such, but let's chat real soon about this
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tantek
aaronpk did you fix aaron.pk?
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KevinMarks
OK, break for lunch, back at 2 for practical session
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tantek
I take it you guys can't hear me?
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tantek
great job benwerd!!
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tantek
waves
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bnvk
speaking of custom domains- any of you ever in need of a .is TLD, hit me up ;)
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jancborchardt
bnvk: ok, that sounds real good!
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jancborchardt
bnvk: actually – I wanted to register an .is domain – I remember I got to the point of getting an account somewhere but never went through with it. You don’t need to be citizen of Iceland, do you?
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bretttt
tantek: are you at iiw?
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tantek
just been taking notes via talky.io :)
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bretttt
ohhh
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bnvk
jancborchardt: I believe you need a kennitala as a citizen or a business, so normally one needs to go through one of those purchasing agents
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bnvk
jancborchardt: so either me personally or mailpile can buy for people :)
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tantek.com
created /2014-05-06-iiw-intro-indieweb (+5550) "copy notes from etherpad"
(view diff)
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kylewm
huh, will be interested to read about the idno name change
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bretttt
kylewm me too. i liked i'duno
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tantek
yeah I thought "idno" was nice and short
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tantek.com
edited /2014-05-06-iiw-intro-indieweb (+136) "linky linky and fix a few typos"
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tantek
!tell benwerd notes from your Intro to the IndieWeb session are archived on the wiki: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014-05-06-iiw-intro-indieweb
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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ben_thatmustbeme
i don't know why people think its such a good idea to move off of searchable names to non-searchable names. the only way i used to be able to find chef stuff was by searching for opscode.
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ben_thatmustbeme
they dropped the opscode and made the whole company chef, and it made searching for them on google so much harder.
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tantek.com
edited /2014-05-06-iiw-intro-indieweb (+224) "Word document instructions"
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tantek.com
edited /2014-05-06-iiw-indiebox (+209) "Word document instructions"
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tantek.com
edited /2014-05-06-iiw-indiebox (+58) "per IIW convention"
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tantek.com
edited /2014-05-06-iiw-intro-indieweb (+58) "per IIW convention"
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ben_thatmustbeme
well i think i have the token endpoint done. just need to create the actual micropub endpoint now.
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ben.thatmustbe.me
edited /User:Ben.thatmustbe.me (+126) "/* OpenBlog */"
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@tempo
I love that IndieWebCamp is humming along, reminding us of why we got into this whole web thing in the first place http://indiewebcamp.com/
(twitter.com/_/status/463778926343766016)
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tantek.com
edited /Main_Page (+7) "/* Homebrew Website Club */ comment out Portland for this week"
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Loqi
benwerd: tantek left you a message 39 minutes ago: notes from your Intro to the IndieWeb session are archived on the wiki: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014-05-06-iiw-intro-indieweb
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tantek
welcome back benwerd
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tantek
feel free to use the command line on that page to create a WORD .rtf document to submit to the IIW folks
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tantek
j12t congrats on launching indiebox indiegogo!!!
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tantek.com
edited /Main_Page (+453) "/* IndieWebCamp */ update next IndieWebCamp is the main event"
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@brennannovak
@runemadsen you should check out & come to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014 it is more of a maker / creator focused gathering than a conference :)
(twitter.com/_/status/463784067402448896)
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tantek.com
edited /Schedule (-4) "update to link to the next one"
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tantek.com
edited /Guest_List (-4) "update to link to the next one"
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tantek.com
edited /Schedule (+0) "this one"
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@adactio
RT @tempo: I love that IndieWebCamp is humming along, reminding us of why we got into this whole web thing in the first place http://t.co/t…
(twitter.com/_/status/463784835136249856)
chrissaad joined the channel
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tantek.com
edited /2014/Schedule (+569) "update for East/West"
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benwerd
just read tantek's comment about rtf, is laughing
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@djbender
RT @tempo: I love that IndieWebCamp is humming along, reminding us of why we got into this whole web thing in the first place http://t.co/t…
(twitter.com/_/status/463785833963597824)
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tantek
Your enterprise tool has been replaced by a one-line shell script.
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benwerd
don't tell the folks at fatberg.org
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tantek
so good
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tantek.com
created /lulz (+37) "stub with fatberg"
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KartikPrabhu
gregor`: HWC-Chicago for tomorrow?
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gRegor`
Oh hey, that's tomorrow.
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gRegor`
:)
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gRegor`
Sure, I'm game.
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KartikPrabhu
alright! RSVPing :)
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gRegor`
lulz++
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Loqi
lulz has 1 karma
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tantek.com
edited /lulz (+54) "chicken (cc: benwerd)"
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gRegor`
Man, that snuck up fast. I haven't done much work since last HWC, heh
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tantek.com
created /chicken (+79) "stub"
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KartikPrabhu
good reason to have an HWC...
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tantek.com
edited /chicken (+27) "see also lulz"
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gRegor`
Yep :)
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gRegor`
You still working on fragmention?
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tantek
benwerd, my apologies. ;)
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KartikPrabhu
gregor`: hmm unknown. Haven't thought of an agenda yet :)
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gRegor`
What the... chicken? Haha
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tantek
gRegor`: you have no idea
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tantek
(needs screenshot)
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gRegor`
I'm tempted to make an "egg" page with contents "Which came first?"
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KevinMarks
aha, nicked a better room
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benwerd
indiethieves
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KartikPrabhu
fatberg.org has too much synergy!
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gRegor`
No Portland HWC, due to IIW I presume?
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tantek
benwerd, aaronpk - can you take notes in KevinMarks's session?
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tantek
on the etherpad?
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gRegor`
Is there a password? The talky.io link doesn't have any a/v for me?
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tantek
gRegor`: no pw
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benwerd
aaronpk is on the case
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aaronpk
packed room again
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ben_thatmustbeme
gRegor, it has to think you have a camera, allow it to access your non-existant cam to get started
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gRegor`
Oh, I think I had blocked it before.
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benwerd
(this is a practical session so notes are probably less verbose)
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kylewm.com
edited /idno (-64) "demisflanagan moved to jekyll 2014-04-13"
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@Strabd
@_zzak Yeh. I get Sinatra, I want to use DM (Mostly because I want to emulate some of the code in this project: https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieAuth )
(twitter.com/_/status/463790308640055299)
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@shawnokeefe
RT @tempo: I love that IndieWebCamp is humming along, reminding us of why we got into this whole web thing in the first place http://t.co/t…
(twitter.com/_/status/463791456809779200)
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@aaronpk
RT @tempo: I love that IndieWebCamp is humming along, reminding us of why we got into this whole web thing in the first place http://t.co/t…
(twitter.com/_/status/463791761672790018)
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@_jden
RT @tempo: I love that IndieWebCamp is humming along, reminding us of why we got into this whole web thing in the first place http://t.co/t…
(twitter.com/_/status/463791795344650240)
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ben_thatmustbeme
I have to go, cannot take notes anymore
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ben_thatmustbeme
have to catch a train
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tantek
who is talking in KevinMarks's room?
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aaronpk
Justin from the OAuth group
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aaronpk
Justin Richer
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tantek
WTF does OAuth details have to do with How to join the IndieWeb?!¿
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aaronpk
kevin made a snarky remark about oauth
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aaronpk
and justin took offense
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tantek
RelMeAuth does not depend on IndieAuth!
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tantek
you don't need to assume. a bunch of use ARE doing things that are usable.
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tantek
sheesh
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tantek
aaronpk does Justin have his own website?
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aaronpk
oh wow he's on the board of Elgg?
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tantek
aaronpk - tell him to add rel=me to his "Elsewhere" links :D
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tantek
aaronpk - can you take notes in the Etherpad?
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gRegor`
Video appear to have died
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gRegor`
And back
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aaronpk
benwerd: who is the guy in black on my left who said he was able to sign in to the wiki just now?
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aaronpk
i can't see his nametag
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tantek
what is Kaliya saying?
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benwerd
Steve Williams, sbw.org
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tantek
I can't understand it
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tantek
who is Kaliya talking about, what is their domain name?
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tantek
always ask when people say, you should talk to so and so, what is their domain name?
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tantek
and if they don't have one, make a note of it
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aaronpk
futureoffish.com gabrielscheer.com
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tantek
Always ask
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aaronpk
"but it's not been used in months"
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tantek
aaronpk -> etherpad please :)
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benwerd
futureoffish.org
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barnabywalters
thanks for all the note-taking aaronpk benwerd
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tantek
"brought together into working groups" <-- also an anti-pattern
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tantek
see also dataportability.org
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tantek
how do you avoid wasting all your time in bureacracy?
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tantek
List of Task forces
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tantek
List of Action Groups
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tantek
is going to get a sandwich.
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aaronpk
bnvk: barnabywalters: do you know why indiewebify.me can't crawl http://gabrielscheer.com/ ?
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: which test specifically?
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aaronpk
"[curl] 52: Empty reply from server [url] http://gabrielscheer.com/"
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aaronpk
web signin
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barnabywalters
hrm that is weird
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gRegor`
User-Agent blocking?
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: you around?
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kylewm
KartikPrabhu: yep, what’s up?
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KartikPrabhu
looking at the backcompat changes to mf2py. Why do you not need to import bs4 ?
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kylewm
I actually removed the bs4 import
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KartikPrabhu
yeah... how does that work?
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kylewm
oh sorry I missed “not”
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KartikPrabhu
so you did not remove it?
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kylewm
I did remove it, it’s never referenced in the module
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kylewm
just manipulated
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KartikPrabhu
oh I see. so all the methods work as they are attached to the soup object...
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KartikPrabhu
cool! thanks
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kylewm
sure :) thanks for reviewing!
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KartikPrabhu
testing wordpress blogs for back compat
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kylewm
adding the stacktrace to the github issue, so I can fix it this evening
c