#indiewebcamp 2014-05-06

2014-05-06 UTC
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@kevinmarks Write-up of some of the issues with AppLinks from an #indieweb perspective: http://indiewebcamp.com/App_Links cc @ilyasu @finkd http://applinks.org (twitter.com/_/status/463468272839835648)
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KevinMarks thanks
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KevinMarks I also misspelled indieweb
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kylewm hehe, indeiweb might find some roman catholic web designers
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kbs :-)
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kbs snarfed: as I'm updating the checkmention to handle rel links better - would it be ok to run one more test on your polytics page? [this one adds a rel=me link in the content, and tries to spoof identity in a few ways.]
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snarfed of course!
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snarfed go for it
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kbs thanks!
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GWG snarfed: Do you have any idea on how, if the webmention hook uses the source, destination, and response, to figure out the post_id? Or do I have to go through every single post to compare the permalink?
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snarfed the wordpress post id, right?
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GWG Yes
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GWG My plan is to store the response in the post itself.
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snarfed there's a wp function to look up post id by URL (in this case target) or slug
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snarfed pfefferle uses it in that plugin
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snarfed looking
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GWG Found it
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GWG http://codex.wordpress.org/Function_Reference/url_to_postid
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GWG It is called...unimaginatively... url to postid
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snarfed yup
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snarfed https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-webmention/blob/master/webmention.php#L105
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GWG So, your bridgy responses consist of a JSON object that includes "url", "type", and "id"?
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GWG What are the possible options for type?
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snarfed i only guarantee url and id, and then only on success
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snarfed type is kinda undocumented
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GWG Because now it becomes a Bridgy specific plugin.
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snarfed i might have just made it up for the example
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GWG Okay.
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snarfed yes, since the spec doesn't define a response format
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GWG That's why I'm asking. I should be checking the code, probably
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GWG But, Bridgy only has a designated number of possible publishing points.
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snarfed if your goal is to get syndication links from bridgy publish, then expecting bridgy's response format is reasonable
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snarfed yup
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GWG snarfed: So, I just have to determine the domain from the url, use that to set a predefined post meta id that the URL is the value of.
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snarfed you're ahead of me now, but give it a shot!
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snarfed ugh, tumblr strips classes out of <a> links :/
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GWG Well, the problem is testing it
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GWG I haven't even updated my copy of the plugin to start trying.
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GWG Too many projects
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GWG Too many ideas.
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GWG But that one is one that might jump the line.
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GWG I've never been particularly good at prioritizing.
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GWG I have this idea for a Bridgy plugin that does this and offers post meta boxes that allow you to select which sites to publish to and then adds the link in. That would be simple enough to work.
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GWG Not sure what other features would be desirable.
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snarfed totally!
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snarfed character counting for twitter would be nice
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GWG snarfed: All the plugins for that I tried stink. So, yes, I'd be in favor.
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snarfed also bookmarklets for when you're on a tweet or fb post in your browser, to open that admin page and automatically fill in the url
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snarfed (i've hacked up wordpress's Press This bookmarklet to do that)
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GWG snarfed: Would that something that goes in a plugin?
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snarfed got me
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snarfed it's in my theme right now
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snarfed happy to post it in a gist if you want it
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GWG Let me see if I can do the other stuff first
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kbs snarfed: done with test - thanks!
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snarfed np!
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GWG snarfed: If it works well...would I be eligible for official endorsement?
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snarfed as in, posting something on bridgy saying, this is good, use it?
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snarfed sure!
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KevinMarks2 The character counting in Tantek's lib is good
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GWG snarfed: Sometimes you need motivation
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GWG KevinMarks2: I'll be focusing on the other stuff first
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GWG The metadata
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kylewm !tell kbs love the new checkmention test, but I can’t quite parse this sentence: “Please also check the links don’t have a rel="me" attribute on them, or someone could indieauth as you.” isn’t the solution to not accept mentions from third-party sites (except whitelisted sites like bridgy)?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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kbs kylewm: ah, that does sound confusing. All I meant to say is that when embedding the content, that <a href=""> link should not also contain a rel="me" attribute
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Loqi kbs: kylewm left you a message 1 minute ago: love the new checkmention test, but I can’t quite parse this sentence: “Please also check the links don’t have a rel="me" attribute on them, or someone could indieauth as you.” isn’t the solution to not accept mentions from third-party sites (except whitelisted sites like bridgy)?
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kylewm ohhh, aonther layer removed from the exploit i was worried about
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snarfed GWG, and any other wordpress users: here's some JS that turns WordPress's Press This bookmarklet into Indieweb Like/Reply/Repost/RSVP to this bookmarklets: https://gist.github.com/snarfed/e2628154ddaffd1ce1a5
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kbs kylewm: right - I think the host-based whitelisting for bridgy would be 'good enough' (likely also need to ensure it's only using https, and whatever library is also verifying the certificate etc...)
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kylewm out of utter ignorance, is it totally trivial to spoof a site without https?
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kylewm I guess you'd just need to misdirect someone's dns
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kbs well, I think the main hurdle (my 0.02 anyway) is spoofing DNS
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kbs and that can be easy or hard depeendin...
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kbs ^^ yea :)
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kylewm ty :)
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kbs (at least in the java world, the other issue tends to be clients that don't actually validate an ssl connection. For some strange reason, many jvms are set up to not actually validate the cert after doing all the hard work of talking tls)
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kbs You could also just use a pinned certificate on appspot.com which ought to do the trick just in case the certificate authority list used by your library isn't as kosher as it ought to be.
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kbs and as usual, there's a nice balance between how attractive your site is to spammers, and how much effort one is willing to spend on this :)
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aaronpk also MITMing your server is another attack vecgtor, but probably not very likely
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aaronpk server or client actually
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aaronpk new version of mention-client-php that now looks for <a> tags https://packagist.org/packages/indieweb/mention-client
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kbs actually, I wonder if https actually solves the appspot issue... the certificate is only for CN=*.appspot.com :/
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kbs I guess in theory it could be taken over by another appengine service, if they could also convince you that it's brid-gy.appspot.com
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aaronpk ruby webmention gem now supports <a> tags https://rubygems.org/gems/webmention
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@rubygems webmention (0.1.1): http://rubygems.org/gems/webmention A gem for sending webmention (and pingback) notifications (twitter.com/_/status/463496624237719552)
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GWG This may be a horrible culinary mistake. Horseradish in hamburgers
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bnvk sounds legit
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kbs vaguely thought wasabi burgers was a thing
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aaronpk http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2014/05/05/2/webmention-indieweb
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aaronpk is offline for a couple hours while I fly to SFO!
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aaronpk bye for now!
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kbs good weather here :) have fun at IIW
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GWG aaronpk: Fly well
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kbs shoe drops - unless I'm missing something, services running https on appengine may not be _that_ secure after all :)
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snarfed this is interesting: really solid thinking about how to make a syndication UX. http://sebastiangreger.net/2014/03/audience-context-conscious-posse-syndication-plugin-wordpress/
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kbs well, with endpoints on *.appspot.com anyway...
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snarfed and implementation: https://github.com/sebastiangreger/sg-syndication
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snarfed GWG: same thing as you're working on, might be worth a look
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snarfed kbs: explain?
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snarfed sorry, reading logs
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snarfed ah, i see
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kbs snarfed: if someone runs a site at https://checkmention-bad.appspot.com -- is there any real way to distinguish it from https://checkmention.appspot.com (assuming I've managed to spoof dns in some fashion)
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snarfed the spoofing dns part is the hard par
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snarfed part
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snarfed especially in practice. doable, but nontrivial
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kbs works out of cafes all the time :)
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snarfed also, if you own the network to that degree, there are probably much simpler and more practical attacks
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snarfed it's an interesting question though. i don't know enough about wildcard ssl certs to say
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kbs I guess what I'm thinking, is that authentication now falls on dns, not ssl
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snarfed i know google login itself is immune, since google account cookies are compartmentalized by product/domain, so checkmention-bad couldn't use checkmention's cookies
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snarfed eh, almost everything falls on dns
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snarfed just as almost all user auth falls back to email :P
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bret https://xkcd.com/1361/
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kbs heh
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bret <3 bridgy and webmention.io http://bret.io/2014/05/05/fiber/
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kbs nice, hope Portland gets the fast access :) Unrelated, but I dropped into one of the starbucks offering "google internet" out in the east-bay, and boy it was not too shabby.
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kbs oh it's currently already in portland *doh*
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kbs or is it (peers shortsightedly at https://fiber.google.com/newcities/)
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bret well, its coming
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kbs ah, nice. That's what I thought when I read your note, but that map on fiber.google.com got my brain discombobulated.
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bret yeah me too!
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bret have not seen that!
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kbs also has to get used to spelling it fiber, not fibre
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kbs (I gave up the battle with metre/meter :)
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kbs the american spelling is more pragmatic though, you'd think I could get used to it after three decades
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KevinMarks curl --head http://about.me/kevinmarks returns 418: I am a Teapot
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snarfed omg it does
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snarfed did they special case you?!
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snarfed that's amazing
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@kevinmarks @arrington @davemcclure @Uncrunched if you want to chat about #indieweb ways to do this, very happy to. (twitter.com/_/status/463522796807548928)
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kylewm.com edited /markdown (+113) "/* Underspecified */ add note about fenced_code extension for python" (view diff)
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KevinMarks !tell snarfed It's not just me, I think they really don't like crawlers. Web-hostile
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KevinMarks hm. why does my hcard show up on kevinmarks.com when I'm logged into google, but not when I'm not?
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kylewm KevinMarks: hmm, I see it whether I'm logged in or not
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KevinMarks you see it on mine?
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KevinMarks odd. I get it on epeus.blogspot.com when I'm logged out
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KevinMarks OK
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kylewm oh wait, maybe I didn't understand the issue … I see an hcard at the top of kevinmarks.com regardless of whether I'm logged into google or not
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kylewm is that the question?
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KevinMarks no, I mean https://www.google.com/search?q=kevin+marks
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kylewm that makes more sense :)
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KevinMarks sorry, that wasn't clear at all was it
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KevinMarks do you see my fcae by kevinmarks.com?
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kylewm I do not, logged in or out
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kylewm but I do by epeus
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KevinMarks hm
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KevinMarks oh well
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KevinMarks I think they only show it by one, and prefer my old blog in pagerank terms
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Loqi snarfed: KevinMarks left you a message 55 minutes ago: It's not just me, I think they really don't like crawlers. Web-hostile
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@_pablo http://indiewebify.me - A guide to getting you on the IndieWeb (twitter.com/_/status/463556783621947392)
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KevinMarks what time does iiw start tomorrow?
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Loqi [mention] http://kylewm.com/note/2014/05/06/3 linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/micropub (webmention)
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KevinMarks OSCON ignite wants talks - who's got a indieweb project they can explain in 5 minutes? http://www.oscon.com/oscon2014/public/cfp/331
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KevinMarks ah, the IIW info is in email. o_O
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aaronpk oh yeah that tripped me up a lot of times
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aaronpk i kept trying to google for it or search my browser history
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aaronpk see you in the morning! heading to sleep now.
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@edsu What Not Dying Looks Like http://blog.theoldreader.com/post/84826194914/what-not-dying-looks-like #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/463606879999234048)
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Loqi [mention] https://petermolnar.eu/blips/indie-web-principles/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/Principles (pingback)
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bnvk "the Gospel of Barnabas…" http://higherperspective.com/2014/05/1500-year-old-bible-claims-jesus-christ-crucified-vatican-awe.html?utm_source=ETT I knew barnabywalters was a prophet
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barnabywalters ha ha ha that sounds pretty contraversial
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bnvk hehe
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barnabywalters (sp)
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bnvk it would be mighty inconvenient for many peoples entire world views
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bnvk it's probably a bogus link
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kyank Anyone able to answer an h-card question?
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barnabywalters greetings kyank!
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barnabywalters probably, go ahead
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kyank According to http://indiewebify.me/validate-h-card/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftantek.com, the h-card on tantek.com includes Tantek’s name, ‘Tantek Çelik’.
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kyank But looking at the markup of http://tantek.com, I don’t see his name tagged inside an h-card.
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kyank I see <h1 class="p-name p-author">Tantek Çelik</h1>, but that’s in an h-feed, not in the h-card.
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barnabywalters kyank: yep, that’s because if there’s no explicit “name” property given, microformats parsers will take the text content of the element and use it as the name
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barnabywalters which has two benefits: all microformats are guaranteed to have a name property (even if it is a little messy);
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barnabywalters and it allows for very concise markup, e.g. <a class=“h-card” href=“http://example.com”>Name</a>
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kyank Take the text content of which element?
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barnabywalters which, due to these implied parsing rules, find both name and URL properties
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barnabywalters kyank: the element with the h-* clas on
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barnabywalters i.e. the root element of the microformat
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kyank Right. I’m not seeing such an element with “Tantek Çelik” as its content.
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kyank So I’m wondering where the parser is finding that name.
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kyank Ah, found it: <abbr class="p-name fn" title="Tantek Çelik">tantekc</abbr>
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barnabywalters kyank: ah, well spotted
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kyank Tricky, that Tantek! ;)
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@yo_bj RT @edsu: What Not Dying Looks Like http://blog.theoldreader.com/post/84826194914/what-not-dying-looks-like #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/463645036354494464)
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Loqi [mention] https://petermolnar.eu/blips/loss-digital-life/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/why#Avoiding_problems (pingback)
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@petermolnar http://indiewebcamp.com/why#Avoiding_problems stories on how digital life can disappear (denied Google login, deleted blog) by the companies you're signing up to (twitter.com/_/status/463660236445061120)
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@Mfecka I merely signed up to Twitter so that I can use it for the abomination known as `Web sign-in' aka `IndieAuth'. Next, Github (same reason). (twitter.com/_/status/463674583879782400)
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@PersonaInc Consumers of All Ages More Concerned About Online Data Privacy http://www.emarketer.com/Article/Consumers-of-All-Ages-More-Concerned-About-Online-Data-Privacy/1010815#sthash.ZgbCjQds.uxfs #OwnYourData (twitter.com/_/status/463681163215642624)
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Loqi [mention] http://kylewm.com/note/2014/05/06/3 linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/micropub (webmention)
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ben_thatmustbeme good morning all
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aaronpk morning!
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bnvk1 mornin
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ben_thatmustbeme what are you guys working on this morning?
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aaronpk about to head to mountain view for IIW!
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aaronpk will be taking notes here https://etherpad.mozilla.org/iiw
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barnabywalters aaronpk: enjoy!
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aaronpk also you can follow my tag here http://aaronparecki.com/tag/iiw
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk, the ownyougram.com documentation of setting up micropub is excellent
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 442 karma
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kylewm any suggestions on how to guess the extension of an uploaded file? e.g., from OwnYourGram?
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kylewm mimetype = application/octet-stream
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gRegor` Meaning a third party site is returning that mime?
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gRegor` Forcing you to download the image, but you want to know what type it is beforehand?
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barnabywalters kylewm: there are a bunch of mime-sniffing packages available
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barnabywalters which look at the first few hundred bytes of the file and try to figure out what it is
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ben_thatmustbeme hmm kylewm. i guess you could check the headers of the file itself, would be a little bit of work
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gRegor` You can read the header of the file to determine it.
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gRegor` ^ barnaby beat me to it.
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ben_thatmustbeme i'd just cheat, save it, then run the 'file' command on it
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kylewm ahh, thank you for the suggestions!
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kbs kylewm: you've already implemented aaronpk 's micropub endpoint authentication, is that right?
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kylewm kbs: yep, more or less
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ben_thatmustbeme i'm working on that bit now
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ben_thatmustbeme or trying to work out that bit now anyway
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kbs oh, nice :) one thing I was wondering - what signatures do you two choose to approve? [ie, signed by what public key?]
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kbs ie - you get a JWT token signed with something - what public key are you using to check that it's a valid signature?
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aaronpk right now everything is done through APIs, so you can just ask the token endpoint if it's valid
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: thanks! glad you found the docs useful, I tried to make it super helpful.
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kbs ah, ok. I was about to try and submit a token signed by the pgp key on my site
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kbs it's a bit of work to pull out the RSA params, etc - but it looks doable
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ben_thatmustbeme I don't quite understand a few parts, but i'll get through it
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kylewm kbs: the access token that I give out is JWT, signed with SHA256 and my flask application's secret key
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kbs kylewm: oh, cool. So you are implementing both the token-exchange as well as the micropub endpoint then?
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kylewm yep, I guess :)
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kylewm but indieauth does all the hard work
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ben_thatmustbeme kbs, thats what i'm doing too. I want to control the token db.
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aaronpk hm good question about the mime type
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aaronpk i'm using curl to do the file upload, so it gets set automatically somehow
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kbs ah, nice - thanks kylewm and ben_thatmustbeme . I was starting to tinker with creating signed tokens - so in principle one could validate them directly with public keys from the associated site. eg: I submit a signed token with "iss"="https://kbsriram.com" and an endpoint can validate it from a suitable pubkey rel tag on kbsriram.com
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kbs (This potentially reduces the dependence on other sites to validate identity)
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ben_thatmustbeme just a cursory reading of some archives. seems that curl itself supports setting mime type, but php_curl does not
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kylewm aaronpk: so you download the file to a temporary location from IG, and then upload it via micropub, right? could the temporary filename just have an extension added to it?
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aaronpk I wonder if that's how php curl figured out the mime type
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aaronpk figures
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk, i'm guessing you are using php_curl not just curl from a bash script or anything.
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aaronpk yeah
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aaronpk ah I'm using http://php.net/tempnam which I believe generates a filename with no extension
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aaronpk i'll just tack on .jpg to that
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kylewm oh that'd work great!
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ben_thatmustbeme http://www.php.net/manual/en/function.finfo-file.php
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aaronpk wanna give it a shot?
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ben_thatmustbeme kylewm you can always use finfo to get the type after
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aaronpk ok it's live
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kylewm lol, that was fast and worked :) thanks aaronpk!
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aaronpk nice!!
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aaronpk that "test" button sure comes in handy!
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kylewm yes, otherwise you would see lots of pictures of my coffee
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ben_thatmustbeme so as a token endpoint all i have to do is pass those 5 post values on to the auth endpoint and it will return me the me and scope in the body?
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aaronpk yep
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kylewm kbs: I'm not quite understanding how pub key/private key comes into play? unless the micropub client wants to verify that the token actually came from the person it thinks it came from
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aaronpk the idea with signed tokens is that they can be verified without an API request
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kbs kylewm: rough thought is actually around ACL-based access to portions of your site. Ie, you want to allow some set of people access to a part of your site
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kbs based on a token they give you.
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kbs kylewm: you can lookup the issuer of the token, go back to their site, and validate the token - which allows for identity validation without needing to (say) get into g+ etc
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aaronpk kbs: careful to not conflate the idea of signed tokens with the idea of access control in general
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kbs hm - wouldn't access control fundamentally depend on identity validation, which presumably signatures offer?
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aaronpk yes but there's more than one way to skin the cat
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kbs agreed
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kbs that's why I was wondering about whether signature checking (implemented by the cat skinners who choose to do it that way) would allow for identity validation as well
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kylewm so you would essentially do login by saying "hey prove to me you are who you say you are by signing something", then verify the signed thing against their site's rel=pgp-key ?
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kbs kylewm: right - [which is the same function that JWT also does at the moment]
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kylewm mmm, but kylewm.com signs the JWT with its private key, the user's key doesn't come into play at all. that's where i'm confused
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kbs so the use-case [to start with] is that you have a portion of your site that I could access
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kbs if I proved my identity
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kbs I start by creating a signed JWT (signed with my private key of course) and pass that to a GET request on that protected section of your site
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kbs (ie - your site gets that token only at that point). The creation of the initial signed JWT token by me would be done on my own site, or thorouh a local app
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kylewm ok I'm with you now
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aaronpk I guess I'm unclear what advantage that gives over how it's currently implemented by others using IndieAuth + session cookies
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kbs not much - other than it possibly allows logins to occur without needing g+ and other sites
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aaronpk ok so not relying on silos can also be solved by your site becoming its own OAuth provider
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aaronpk which is what rel=authorization_endpoint does (whether it points to indieauth.com or your own site, same thing)
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kbs hm. *thinking* I'm probably missing some connecting dots :)
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aaronpk maybe I should make another reference authorization endpoint that's super simple and just uses password auth
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ben_thatmustbeme so minor question, i'm guessing the idea of the scope bit is basically saying that by authorizing this application to post (which G+ sees as authorizing indieweb to post to G+) i'm saying that I'm authorizing this app to post on my site?
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aaronpk as a demonstration of an auth server that doesn't require silos
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: the idea with scope is that your micropub endpoint can verify that the token generated is authorized to post to your site
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aaronpk which lets you generate tokens that can do other things
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ben_thatmustbeme i guess for my code it really doesn't matter, i am really only concerned with the ME bit,
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aaronpk like maybe you want to try out barnaby's note interface, but yuo don't want to let his app post syndications for you. your micropub endpoint could require that in order to syndicate automatically, the token must include the "syndication" scope
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ben_thatmustbeme okay
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aaronpk arrived at computer history museum!
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tantek yay!
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Loqi yay!
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ben_thatmustbeme so basically when i try to post to the micropub endpoint, i look up to make sure they have post ability
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tantek aaronpk - I'm with you - much better to have a solution that doesn't depend on user-PKI setup which in practice is too much of a pain.
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@tantramar .@decasteve @guild111 @hjarche That’s what my website/blog is for. #ownyourdata (twitter.com/_/status/463707411489234945)
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ben_thatmustbeme cool. turn on a Commodore64 for me.
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kbs looks forward to notes from https://etherpad.mozilla.org/iiw
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voxpelli aaronpk: these rel-authorization_endpoint and such – for relmeauth – should all of the linked rel-me profiles be checked for such rels as well=
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tantek kbs, you find signing stuff with PKI works smoothly for you?
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kbs tantek: very much so - I have a couple of apps that my family and friends use
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kbs it's not PKI - but it's private-key based crypto underneath
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kylewm kbs: you'll have to show tantek that android app at HWC some time, it is slick
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tantek kbs - ok, good to know, I'll keep listening and try to understand better.
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tantek aaronpk, LOL: https://twitter.com/Mfecka/status/463674583879782400
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@Mfecka I merely signed up to Twitter so that I can use it for the abomination known as `Web sign-in' aka `IndieAuth'. Next, Github (same reason). (twitter.com/_/status/463674583879782400)
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kbs sure thing - think the main reason it works is that it's a mobile app, and the word crypto doesn't show up anywhere - it's a fairly simple 'share this photo/status' with so-and-so. That's about all it does
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tantek kbs - so it's a photo-messaging app?
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kbs tantek: pretty much, in use. Mostly photos, occasional video.
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kbs Content gets stored on each other's dropbox/gdrive accounts encrypted
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kbs and is pulled down to the local device and decrypted there.
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kbs from the user's point of view, it's a very basic share-this with that-person(s) sort of thing.
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voxpelli tantek: RelMeAuth – is it specifically meant to be used with OAuth or with any standard auth mechanism one can find on rel-me-consolidated profiles?
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tantek it's meant to ephemerally delegate auth to whoever the publisher wants to (via rel=me), which is typically OAuth
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voxpelli so it would make sense if this new non-silo auth that has been brainstormed in eg. auth-brainstorming would be used there as well I presume?
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tantek voxpelli - no it would not
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voxpelli why not?
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tantek if you have self-auth, you don't need to relmeauth to anything.
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tantek so "used there as well" makes no sense
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voxpelli I need relmeauth if I want to keep my consolidated profile DRY
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tantek those two have nothing to do with each other
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tantek rel=me can be used to consolidate your profile yes
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tantek relmeauth is only for using 3rd parties to ephemerally authenticate yourself as your domain.
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voxpelli I'm thinking that if I have three blogs with micropub on all of them, consolidated with rel-me, then I should just have to specify auth-details on one of them
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tantek oh - *more than one* personal site?
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tantek once you involve micropub you're involving a different use-case
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tantek you've entered the same cognitive dissonance that was confusing aaronpk a few days ago
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tantek no matter how many blogs you have, it makes more sense to "auth" as your primary domain name, whatever you choose that to be
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voxpelli okay, but surely I can have multiple personal profiles reflecting different perspectives of my online identity?
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tantek and as long as that domain has its own self-auth, then again, you don't need relmeauth
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tantek voxpelli but that's even more confusing
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tantek you're making up a super complicated example
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tantek multiple personal sites, multiple personal identities etc.
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tantek ain't nobody got time for that.™ ;)
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voxpelli I've got that case already
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tantek and you've made sense of it all somehow?
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voxpelli voxpelli.com is my personal blog, kodfabrik.se is my professional profile – none is more dominant than the other
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voxpelli they reflect different parts of me, but none reflects it more than the other
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tantek perhaps you can document this on http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Kodfabrik.se and how/why you use your separate sites and identities.
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tantek it's non-obvious enough to merit explicit documentation
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voxpelli I can try
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tantek interesting that you chose to link "voxpelli" on http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people to User:Kodfabrik.se rather than voxpelli.com
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tantek that seems to show a bit of confusion
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voxpelli kodfabrik.se is my OpenID domain and the wiki couldn't resolve the rel-me link from voxpelli.com to there
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tantek ah, you're using a separate /about page on voxpelli.com to rel-me link to providers
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tantek that's the piece that I think is not supported in indieauth implementation(s) yet
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tantek the use of a separate /about sub-page
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voxpelli yeah, one needs a more complicated lookup mechanism like my relspider then
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tantek voxpelli - the subpage feature is part of the RelMeAuth spec, just not yet supported
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tantek you could for now just use a <link> tag if you don't want to put a visible link on your home page
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tantek <link rel="me" href="https://twitter.com/voxpelli" />
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tantek or github etc.
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voxpelli yeah, I built https://github.com/voxpelli/relspider completely around that and experimented quite a bit with crawling complex such identities
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voxpelli and that's why I'm wondering about these things as well because that crawling could be extended to also fetch info about new auth mechanisms like these
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voxpelli to get subpage-support into an indieauth like tool
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kylewm is IndieAuth simply a RelMeAuth implementation or is the relationship more complicated?
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voxpelli kylewm: it started as a RelMeAuth implementation, now it does some more things I think
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kbs seems to have trodden some well-trodden path with lindy and relspider :)
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tantek voxpelli: could use some help with https://github.com/themattharris/RelMeAuth/ also - that's what I use as my RelMeAuth implementation rather than IndieAuth - for my own site.
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tantek I've got a test version deployed here http://tantek.com/relmeauth/ , and ever since Twitter's 1.1 and website/t.co changes it's been a bit broken :(
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voxpelli tantek: my idea is that relspider can work as a web service which tools like that one can fetch more complicated identity graphs from instead of or in addition to their own lookups
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tantek voxpelli: minor nit, your twitter profile link at http://voxpelli.com/about should use https
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voxpelli tantek: thanks, fixed
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kodfabrik.se edited /User:Kodfabrik.se (+2230) (view diff)
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voxpelli tantek: there's some thoughts, now it's time to go home from work here and find some food
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tantek sounds good. priorities! :)
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kodfabrik.se edited /User:Kodfabrik.se (+0) "/* Indie web setup */" (view diff)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb #iiw (@ IIW XVIII) http:///login?continue=%2Fkevinmarks%2Fcheckin%2F53691535498edaf7763cf7b8 (twitter.com/_/status/463725031777128448)
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tantek clicks the twtr.io link to see what the actual link is in the tweet
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tantek hmm - the IIW contingent seems strangely absent from IRC and the Etherpad.
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snarfed ah well. live note taking isn't for everyone
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tantek looking forward to KevinMarks's live note-taking via his site
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tantek.com edited /App_Links (+6) "/* Criticism */ this -> App Links" (view diff)
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gRegor` What's IIW?
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kylewm independent identity workshop
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tantek gRegor`: it's a semi-regular internet identity brainstorming and support group that charges hundreds of dollars per attendee. ;)
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gRegor` Ah, interesting
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gRegor` Ha!
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snarfed http://www.internetidentityworkshop.com/
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bnvk dang it, I wish I was on the west coast and could attend
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bnvk looks like a really worthwhile event
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tantek bnvk, curious what makes you say that - besides hanging out with aaronpk, kevinmarks, benwerd, erinjo etc.
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tantek snarfed, does "workshop" imply work gets done? ;)
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snarfed tantek: ? got me…
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snarfed just pasted a link
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bnvk tantek: yes, obviously the attendees- the fact that a high number of people I respect are going to be there- also the topics
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tantek bnvk - you coming to IndieWebCamp 2014 (East or West) ?
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tantek.com edited /2014/ (+1) "east & west!" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2014/ (+0) (view diff)
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gRegor` I'm tentatively coming to IWC west
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bnvk tantek: yah, i'm definitely planning on the Berkman East coast one, if UK happens again I'll be there :)
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tantek gRegor`: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Guest_List add yourself!
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tantek bnvk - UK is happening again
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tantek but sooner than that
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/2014 is going to be in BOTH Portland & NYC
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gRegor` I want to wait until it's definite. Need to check a few things.
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tantek with simultaneous sessions
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/2014 will be the biggest - if you're looking to hang out with a high number of people you respect ;)
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bnvk hehe
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bnvk aye
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tantek is updating the Guest List now
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bnvk I'd really love to make it to that, but timing & dates I'm not sure if makes sense for me + costs of flights to west coast are a bit more
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tantek bnvk - what about flights to NYC?
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bnvk is there another one there coming up?
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tantek IndieWebCamp 2014 is being done in two locations :D
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bnvk OH, it's on the same date…
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bnvk I was looking at http://indiewebcamp.com/Events
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gRegor` This is interesting: Vellum, a reading layer for Twitter: http://blog.nytlabs.com/2014/04/25/vellum-a-reading-layer-for-your-twitter-feed/
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ben_thatmustbeme i just need to get a telepresence machine and send that, haha
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aaronpk #iiw doing fast intros of name + affiliation
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tantek (1 hour later)
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aaronpk it's being timed
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aaronpk will report back soon
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gRegor` Perhaps of interest to people working on /feed-reader
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tantek.com edited /2014/Guest_List (+312) "Creators East and West" (view diff)
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aaronpk so far my favorite is "Dave Crocker, Email"
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KevinMarks I have a chromebook to be the telepresence machine for ciberch and others
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tantek bnvk, http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Guest_List#East :D
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tantek will fix /Events now
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tantek thanks for the reminder bnvk
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KevinMarks should we use hangouts or what?
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tantek talky.io?
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bnvk hrm, flights to NYC are a bit cheaper
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tantek exactly
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ben_thatmustbeme that would be cool
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tantek we're dividing and conquering
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ben_thatmustbeme i'm just going to wait for the Cambridge one
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bnvk who's going to be in NYC?
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aaronpk introduced myself as "Aaron Parecki, IndieWebCamp and oauth.net" <- that should turn a few heads
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tantek bnvk - NYTimes is hosting IWC 2014 East
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tantek aaronpk, NICE
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KevinMarks oauth,net++
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bnvk hehe
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tantek aaronpk - let's see if anyone just introduces themselves by URL
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ben_thatmustbeme haha, that would be cool
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aaronpk nobody
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aaronpk 6 minutes 50 seconds
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tantek so much for living "internet identity" ;)
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KevinMarks we introduced ourselves as #indieweb (the # is silent)
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aaronpk we're not all sitting next to each other so "indieweb" came up a few times around the circle
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tantek nice
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@kevinmarks #indieweb people at #iiw: me, @aaronpk @benwerd @erinjo and whoever wants to sign up over the next few days (twitter.com/_/status/463731496247758848)
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@tantramar Ok, so Tantek Çelik (@t) favourited one of my tweets. Total coincidence: I had http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard open at the time. :) #ownyourdata (twitter.com/_/status/463732032661889024)
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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tantek welcome bretc!
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bretttttttt hypervisor is down, lol
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tantek what is hypervisor?
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Loqi hypervisor is down
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bretttttttt its bret from portland
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tantek why all the tttt's?
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bretttttttt hypervisor is the thing that runs my VPS that runs my bouncer
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bretttttttt because bret and bretc are registered and I dont have the password
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bretttttttt basically my tower of IRC software failed for the moment and Im on webchat XD
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@aaronpk Great to put faces to a bunch of familiar names at #iiw! Looking forward to chatting! #indieweb (http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2014/05/06/1/iiw-indieweb) (twitter.com/_/status/463732738940350464)
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bretttttttt i like the guy fawkes mask wearing dog logo thats rad
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tantek.com edited /Events (+2934) "move IWC NYC to past, 2014 is East & West!, add HWC 2014-05-21 2014-06-04 2014-06-18, bolden dates" (view diff)
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bretttttttt how is iiw going?
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aaronpk about to create the unconference board
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KevinMarks odd, getting empty replies from wordpress.com with indiewebify.me
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KevinMarks http://indiewebify.me/validate-rel-me/?url=http%3A%2F%2Faheadrobot.com
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KevinMarks any ideas?
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KevinMarks do we have sessions planned?
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aaronpk i'm planning an indieauth session
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aaronpk trying to figure out how to frame it for the audience here
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KevinMarks an #indieweb stream?
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tantek KevinMarks: I'm not seeing any sessions in https://etherpad.mozilla.org/iiw
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KevinMarks 'cos we're still doing process explanations
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tantek aaronpk - perhaps a recruiting session?
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tantek "The IndieWeb Wants YOU"
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aaronpk that sounds creepy lol
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KevinMarks intro to #indieweb is worth doing
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@kevinmarks @smagdali @aaronpk @benwerd @erinjo irc is #indiewebcamp on freenode, http://indiewebcamp.com is a more persistent wiki. (twitter.com/_/status/463733751562776576)
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tantek there's got to be people there that already get the intro, and just want to connect up and become more indieweb themselves
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aaronpk so all session notes get compiled from word docs and are distributed as a PDF via email at the end
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KevinMarks OK, intro to #indieweb
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KevinMarks there is a wiki too
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tantek aaronpk - wat
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aaronpk the wiki just says to do that
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KartikPrabhu PDF via email!!!!
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KevinMarks advanced #indieweb
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bretttttttt #doc2pdf.exe
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tantek aaronpk, please tell me that's a joke
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aaronpk nope
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tantek citation?
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tantek screenshot?
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tantek something?
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aaronpk http://iiw.idcommons.net/File:IIW_Notes_Taker_Form_Compatible_(1).doc
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KevinMarks http://iiw.idcommons.net/index.php?title=Special:RecentChanges&days=30&from=&limit=500
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aaronpk http://iiw.idcommons.net/ALL_Book_of_Proceedings_PDFs
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bretttttttt KevinMarks: I guess you win this TIME!
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KevinMarks not a well-used wiki
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tantek OMS: http://iiw.idcommons.net/Note_Form
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bretttttttt (your point about word vs markdown)
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tantek "When notes are complete please email this document as an attachment "
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tantek !!!!
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gRegor` Lulz
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aaronpk :)
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bretttttttt wait, but there is a wiki RIGHT THERE!
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tantek http://www.wikinomics.com/blog/uploads/wiki_collaboration2.jpg
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bretttttttt lulz
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KevinMarks this may be in response to the wifi here...
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tantek so wait, on a *WIKI* they are asking you to take notes in MSWORD and EMAIL them to a bottleneck?
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tantek for real?
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bretttttttt you can use a text editor before entering it into the wiki
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bretttttttt why not just take notes into an email?
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tantek I'm just. Wow. No words.
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bretttttttt tantek: im predicting a similar rational as to why people didn publish html slides at osfw3c
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tantek who is Ebgross?
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smagali 'ello
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KevinMarks hiya stef
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tantek welcome smagali!
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bretttttttt hey smagali
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KevinMarks did you lose a d?
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tantek smagali: add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC_People :)
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KevinMarks benwerd has intor to indieweb, aaron has indieauth, I have "Join the indieweb" - practical session to induct people
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tantek KevinMarks: awesome. recruit the best and brightest and most productive.
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ben_thatmustbeme yess, more recruits *Evil cackle*
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KevinMarks no-one here from facebook or twitter, fewer from google?
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kylewm.com edited /User:Kylewm.com (+17) "/* personal site */ finished original-post-discovery" (view diff)
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KevinMarks did anyone say yahoo?
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brettt gesundheit
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smagali @tanktek surely I have to have been here twice before I can be considered 'regular' ;)
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kylewm articles about (partial) github silo-quits, should those go on /git, /github, or /silo-quits?
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KevinMarks post-death identity management
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tantek smagali: or invited to do so ;)
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brettt kylewm: silo quits I think
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snarfed KevinMarks: +1 to that. underserved problem
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tantek kylewm: see /silo-quits
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KevinMarks covert redirects for xrls
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ben_thatmustbeme morbid thought: digital tombstone to a person
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@benwerd RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb people at #iiw: me, @aaronpk @benwerd @erinjo and whoever wants to sign up over the next few days (twitter.com/_/status/463737142468812802)
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smagali @Kevin, felt that first hand only last week: https://www.facebook.com/scott.ellsworth.94?fref=ts
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kylewm tantek: brettt: maybe /code ? this is more practical than github-rejection http://danger.computer/2014/04/28/gitlab-part-one
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brettt kylewm: maybe in silo quits and http://indiewebcamp.com/gitlab
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kylewm okie, thanks
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brettt since it has info on getting up and running and then crashing
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kylewm heh, yes
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@kevinmarks #iiw @benwerd: I'm one of the indie posse here today - I'm doing an Introduction to the #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/463737795878879232)
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@kevinmarks #iiw @aaronpk: I'm doing a session on indieauth, making your own site an identity provider #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/463737926845620224)
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@kevinmarks #iiw @kevinmarks: I have a practical session "Join the #indieweb" - get your personal indie website set up (twitter.com/_/status/463738091355009024)
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@benwerd RT @kevinmarks: #iiw @kevinmarks: I have a practical session "Join the #indieweb" - get your personal indie website set up (twitter.com/_/status/463738535934058496)
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@benwerd RT @kevinmarks: #iiw @aaronpk: I'm doing a session on indieauth, making your own site an identity provider #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/463738548856705024)
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KevinMarks self-transcribing is a new kind of selfdogfooding
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@aaronpk RT @kevinmarks: #iiw @aaronpk: I'm doing a session on indieauth, making your own site an identity provider #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/463738658533539841)
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kylewm lol at “one of the indie posse”, nice benwerd
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kylewm.com created /GitLab (+352) "added danger.computer article" (view diff)
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@benwerd Very interested in talking about #indieweb, and open source consumer web products. #iiw (twitter.com/_/status/463739212043259904)
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tantek.com edited /Events (+22) "/* Upcoming */ highlight the main event of the year" (view diff)
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tantek kylewm: /code is for the "code" post type, that is, posting code on your own site.
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bnvk does anyone else find it slightly odd that we use #indieweb on Twitter, but there is no #indieweb IRC chan?
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kbs runs away from all #indie-* nomenclature topics :)
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snarfed kbs++
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Loqi kbs has 7 karma
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brettt aaronpk: does Loqi have https://github.com/aranasaurus/zenircbot-meme ?
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Loqi woot!
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tantek bnvk - nah, domain-name -> irc channel
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@craigburton “@kevinmarks: #iiw @aaronpk: I'm doing a session on indieauth, making your own site an identity provider #indieweb” Love it (twitter.com/_/status/463741305374650369)
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tantek a-ha!
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tantek.com created /irc_people (+24) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /irc_people (+0) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /IRC_people (+24) "r" (view diff)
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tantek !tell smagali now that you've joined a second time, you should definitely add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC_People
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KevinMarks so, what was the thinking on webcast?
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KevinMarks I have a chromebook poised
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tantek KevinMarks: is etherpad blocked there?
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tantek let's see you can textcast before webcast ;)
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KevinMarks I'm going to textcast using noterlive
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tantek how about talky.io/iiw ?
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KevinMarks ok remote peeps hangouts? talky? vote now
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tantek i say talky
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tantek benwerd - https://etherpad.mozilla.org/iiw
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kbs would be very glad to just quietly lurk and see livenotes/blogs whenever convenient for any of you
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benwerd logging in now - only just got on the wifi
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KevinMarks set up
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kylewm.com edited /silo-quits (+1145) "/* Silo quitters 2014 */ added self and Michael Garvin article" (view diff)
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tantek mutes self on talky.io. I'm the red blob thing. :)
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kylewm bnvk: confirm that I found the #indieweb vs. #indiewebcamp distinction confusing when initially reading about it
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tantek I see KevinMarks!
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tantek I'm the red blob :)
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tantek but no audio
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KevinMarks no audio?
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KevinMarks hm
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KevinMarks we tried using aaron's camera+mic
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tantek KevinMarks: I can't hear you guys
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tantek can you hear me?
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tantek KevinMarks, Just muted myself
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brettt what is the big red vido box?
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KevinMarks big red is tntek's sticker over hsi camera
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brettt also KevinMarks not sure were getting any audio
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KevinMarks what's johannes's twitter handle?
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KevinMarks hm
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tantek brettt: I'm the big red. That's an EFF privacy sticker :D
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brettt haha
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kbs haha :)
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brettt ok
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brettt tantek: are you getting audio from KevinMarks ?
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kbs uses the ductape privacy sticker :)
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KevinMarks i had the speaker muted
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KevinMarks can you hear anythign yet?
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KevinMarks hi Monica
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@erinjo Crowd funding for Indie Box personal data server is live https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/indie-box-let-s-bring-our-data-home #iiw #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/463744597944852480)
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ciberch Hi @KevinMarks where to join for #iiw
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brettt no :( but tantek should confirm
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ben_thatmustbeme did i miss the talky link
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KartikPrabhu kylewm, bnvk: about indieweb vs indiewebcamp here is Joschi's reply ot my post http://kartikprabhu.com/article/concurrence-cooperation##defined+by+participating
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KevinMarks we're having a "can you hear us yet" moment
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KevinMarks talky.io/iiw
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ben_thatmustbeme i cannot talk/be seen as i'm at work, but wouldn't mind listening it
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ciberch joining...
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Loqi smagali: tantek left you a message 11 minutes ago: now that you've joined a second time, you should definitely add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC_People
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tantek :D
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kbs benwerd++ for ongoing notes on indiebox talk at https://etherpad.mozilla.org/iiw - thanks!
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Loqi benwerd has 15 karma
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tantek hey I see ciberch!
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ben_thatmustbeme oh there it is
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KevinMarks I can see monica
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tantek and audio too!
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tantek I hear you ciberch. I'm the red blob.
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ben_thatmustbeme hi monica. yes i'm a black screen
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KevinMarks can you hear ben?
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KevinMarks hm
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ciberch I cant hear :(
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brettt KevinMarks: still not getiting audio
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ben_thatmustbeme i heard monica
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KevinMarks ok I'll unlug aaron's cam
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ben_thatmustbeme i can't hear anything else
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: bnvk: and I think I actually joined #indieweb on irc first
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KevinMarks is that any better?
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ben_thatmustbeme still no audio
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bnvk hehe
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KevinMarks bugger
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KevinMarks OK, I'll try the mac instead
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@benwerd Listening to the official crowdfunding launch of the Indie Box: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/indie-box-let-s-bring-our-data-home #indieweb #iiw (twitter.com/_/status/463745322959654912)
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ben_thatmustbeme ahh, its kevin
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ciberch yay audio !
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Loqi woot
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ben_thatmustbeme you scared me
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: nice response from Joschi
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brettt KevinMarks: Audio!!!
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tantek audio!
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KevinMarks yay
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Loqi :D
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ben_thatmustbeme now why am i not getting audio?
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: yeah. I hope he writes his linger post so this is sort of cleared up
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KevinMarks reload
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KartikPrabhu s/linger/longer
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Loqi KartikPrabhu meant to say: kylewm: yeah. I hope he writes his longer post so this is sort of cleared up
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KevinMarks i have monica and 3 black frames
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ben_thatmustbeme i can barely hear anything
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, sorry, at work, no microphone
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aaronpk it's pretty loud in here too, like lots of background noise
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ben_thatmustbeme or camera
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KevinMarks this room is not ideal
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KevinMarks the next sessions are in an enclosed room,
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smagali kevin, your session is at 12, right?
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ben_thatmustbeme i can't really hear anything worth while sadly
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KevinMarks ben is note-taking like a demon
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benwerd doffs cap
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aaronpk the next ones will be better cause they'll be in an enclosed room
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KevinMarks see https://etherpad.mozilla.org/iiw
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aaronpk photo: http://aaron.pk/n4Vw2
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ben_thatmustbeme oh weird, now I can
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aaronpk that's kevinmarks on the floor setting up the camera
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ben_thatmustbeme had to leave and rejoin
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tantek question for j12t: who else is using an indiebox at home?
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@kevinmarks #iiw @Johannes_Ernst: crowd funding for Indie Box has started today: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/indie-box-let-s-bring-our-data-home #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/463746533306171392)
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brettt what is it running? not debian?
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aaronpk darn I really need a way to posse photos to twitter *right now*
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@kenyatta RT @kevinmarks: #iiw @Johannes_Ernst: crowd funding for Indie Box has started today: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/indie-box-let-s-bring-our-data-home #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/463746854224945153)
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@NZN RT @kevinmarks: #iiw @Johannes_Ernst: crowd funding for Indie Box has started today: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/indie-box-let-s-bring-our-data-home #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/463746873141239808)
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@aaronpk Session scheduling #iiw #indieweb (http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2014/05/06/3/iiw-indieweb) https://twitter.com/aaronpk/status/463747044260065280/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/463747044260065280)
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aaronpk manual posse ftw
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bnvk nice
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kylewm “Can’t be evil” – great name for a session
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@bretolius RT @kevinmarks: #iiw @Johannes_Ernst: crowd funding for Indie Box has started today: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/indie-box-let-s-bring-our-data-home #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/463747198002667520)
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bnvk glad Johannes is doing a crowdfunding campaing
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bnvk campaign, rather
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tantek Is that "Can't be evil: lies Googlers tell themselves" ? ;)
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aaronpk pretty sure it's a not-so-subtle jab at google
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kylewm I was hoping, ‘build systems on more than good intentions’
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brettt wow, great work Johannes! He should talk with the pump.io crowd. I know they were interested in doing plug servers
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aaronpk snarfed: does bridgy posse photos with twitter too?
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aaronpk i could really use that right about now
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snarfed aaronpk: not yet, sadly
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snarfed https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/85
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brettt aaronpk: manual posse works in a pickle, given 5 - 10 minuts XD
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snarfed +1 to manual posse!
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tantek yes! phillips lightbulb!
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tantek go aaronpk!
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snarfed brettt: 5-10m? whoa. what takes so long?
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brettt slow computer, fixing things that break, uploading the imag to flicker for full rez
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aaronpk brettt: got it down to about 1 minute per photo
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brettt off of a phone
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@aaronpk @j12t presenting the #indiebox at #iiw #indieweb (http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2014/05/06/2/indiebox-iiw-indieweb) https://twitter.com/aaronpk/status/463748123550965761/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/463748123550965761)
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ben_thatmustbeme another black box appears
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ben_thatmustbeme haha
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KevinMarks hi indie-visitor - do /nick [yourname] to change
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indie-visitor crap its just me again
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KevinMarks now 4 black boxes
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ben_thatmustbeme i think i'm the widescreen black box, haha
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KevinMarks johannes no longer has a head
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aaronpk bretttt: here take this: http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=indiewebcamp&nick=bretttt
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bretttt aaronpk: ff crashed
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aaronpk ah
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ben_thatmustbeme rather interesting watching the video, seeing the etherpad and talking on here. Feel much more connected
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ben_thatmustbeme especially since he just pointed to the camera and said my name :)
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KevinMarks we are your peripherals
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KevinMarks heh. benwerd is sitting next to the cam
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, i figured
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benwerd I am everywhere
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benwerd the Lawnmower Man
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aaronpk benwerd++ for the ridiculously thorough note taking. i feel like i can't jump in cause i'll interrupt his flow
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Loqi benwerd has 16 karma
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kbs great transcriptions benwerd, thanks
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tantek waits for his phone to ring. oh wait.
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bretttt benwerd++
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Loqi benwerd has 17 karma
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KevinMarks I could click that skype link again and make it ring, tantek
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benwerd aaronpk++ for helping avoid my RSI
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Loqi aaronpk has 443 karma
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bretttt KevinMarks++ for the video :)
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Loqi KevinMarks has 29 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme KevinMarks++ I'll second that
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Loqi too much karma!
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KevinMarks aaronpk++ for the better camera+mic
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KevinMarks shame my chromebook can't handle mics
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aaronpk i knew that would come in handy!
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aaronpk laptop mics aren't designed to pick up a full room
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KevinMarks I did think of bringing my mic, but it weighs over a kg
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@domenicoperri RT @aaronpk: @j12t presenting the #indiebox at #iiw #indieweb (http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2014/05/06/2/indiebox-iiw-indieweb) https://twitter.com/aaronpk/status/463748123550965761/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/463750828831297538)
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ben_thatmustbeme don't know that i would call heartbleed a success story... there were some mistakes that went on
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aaronpk https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/463751990364102656
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@kevinmarks #iiw @Johannes_Ernst: we don't have an app that is an IDP app @aaronpk: hey, I have one @johannes_ernst: great lets use it (twitter.com/_/status/463751990364102656)
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KevinMarks reminder: OSCON wants Ignite talks - submit indieweb ones: http://www.oscon.com/oscon2014/public/cfp/331?cmp=tw-prog-confreg-info-os14_tweet_general
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brettt im a little worried 50,000 fixed funding is a bit steep at this point
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kbs sorry, can someone fill me in on what an "IDP app" is? Intrusion detection?
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aaronpk identity provider
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kbs oh :) thanks
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aaronpk you're gonna hear that a lot around here the next couple days
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tantek reminder: Homebrew Website Club THIS WEDNESDAY: http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-05-07-homebrew-website-club and yes we will have IndieWebCamp stickers (cc: ben_thatmustbeme )
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@benwerd I backed Indie Box. You should too! https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/indie-box-let-s-bring-our-data-home #indieweb #iiw (twitter.com/_/status/463752798371188736)
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tantek RSVP: http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-05-07-homebrew-website-club#RSVP
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kevinmarks.com edited /events/2014-05-07-homebrew-website-club (+91) "/* Where */" (view diff)
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bnvk really great job noting things down benwerd :)
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aaronpk our notes are gonna blow the rest out of the water once we put them into the word doc and they get turned into a pdf and emailed
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bretttt https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-RMsm3l0NIe8/U2D83G3a9cI/AAAAAAAATX4/7V3bKmK1qYU/mind-blown.jpg
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tantek aaronpk - please post the notes session by session onto the IndieWebCamp wiki instead
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aaronpk definitely
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KevinMarks we could add them to the iiw wiki too
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tantek and then just put *a URL* in the Word DOC
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KevinMarks :D
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tantek no seriously
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tantek KevinMarks: there's no community on iiw wiki
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bretttt can we put it in a super old version of a word doc?
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KevinMarks true
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aaronpk isn't it worth actually sending them the full notes though?
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tantek bretttt: that's called .rtf
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bretttt like word 95? there has to be a VM somewhere
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tantek aaronpk - no
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tantek make a point of it
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tantek put ONLY the URL to the notes on the IWC wiki
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KevinMarks I have a mac SE image here somehere
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tantek and by clicking through from the Word to the PDF to the wiki, they'll get it
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bretttt :D even better a mac version
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ben_thatmustbeme haha, tantek, thanks but i'm on the wrong coast for that
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bretttt can you embed the word doc into a PDF?
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: where are you based?
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ben_thatmustbeme Boston
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aaronpk having just discovered that I lost a bunch of photos (not because of a lack of backups, just literally lost) I am coming to the conclusion that the only way to make things persist is to spread copies out all over the place
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KevinMarks doesn't have word though, just photoshop and swedish hypercard
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ben_thatmustbeme yes, i'll be at the Cambridge one
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kbs aaronpk++ :)
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Loqi aaronpk has 444 karma
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aaronpk apparently I can't even be trusted to keep my own data
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KevinMarks LOCKSSS++
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Loqi LOCKSSS has 1 karma
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aaronpk KevinMarks: we should go over to room H now
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KevinMarks aaronpk is 2/3 of the antichrist
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kbs benwerd++ awesome notes, much appreciated.
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tantek notes macosx util textutil for converting .txt to .rtf >:D
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benwerd Thanks everyone
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benwerd hosting the next one so won't be notetaking
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benwerd will resume for kevinmarks's and aaronpk's
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tantek is coming up with a command line
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KevinMarks I will be noterliving
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, thanks for all the notes
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KevinMarks tantek you could run your old website making tool on this mac image
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bretttt KevinMarks: aaronpk: you could attach the word doc to a pdf and email that >:) http://www.wikihow.com/Attach-a-File-to-a-PDF-Document
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tantek here you go
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tantek echo "http://indiewebcamp.com/" | textutil -stdin -output worddoc.rtf -convert rtf
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tantek that's how you turn a URL into a Word document with the URL in it
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tantek called worddoc.rtf
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bnvk you guys, encode the URL in a QR Code, please!!!
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ciberch is there a way to search in this room ?
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tantek btw the reason to put it on a wiki is so that you can link it after the fact, and edit typos etc.
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ciberch I want to see if anyone figured out how to turn the video off for the talky
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ciberch self video
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tantek none of which you can do with MSWORD -> PDF -> email enclosures
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tantek let them eat URLs
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bretttt ciberch: just dont plug in a web cam?
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snarfed ciberch: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/today
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tantek.com edited /events/2014-05-06-iiw (+269) "command line for making an RTF" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /events/2014-05-06-iiw (+18) "nowiki" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme brettt. Until i told it to pretend I had one and give it permission (to one that doesn't even exist) it wouldn't show anything
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tantek I see KevinMarks on talky and hear benwerd
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ciberch @bretttt its my mac's cam - guess I can see if I can disable on Chrome
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KevinMarks switched the cam
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KevinMarks I made the mistake of unplugging it and crashed chrome
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@Johannes_Ernst RT @kevinmarks: #iiw @Johannes_Ernst: crowd funding for Indie Box has started today: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/indie-box-let-s-bring-our-data-home #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/463757086837338112)
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ciberch Thanks @snarfed that works
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ben_thatmustbeme don't talk about the indiephone we'll get tantek fighting with people again. :)
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@kevinmarks #iiw @benwerd: we talk a lot in #indieweb about "silos" - dropbox, facebook etc who make money by locking up our data (twitter.com/_/status/463757519060758528)
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: didn't fight with anyone. just asked people to post notes on their own site instead of Twitter
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tantek not sure how asking for a positive is a "fight"
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@kevinmarks #iiw @benwerd: #indieweb is about having your own space on the web - your own domain as your primary identity (twitter.com/_/status/463757774438928384)
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bretttt ben_thatmustbeme: i have had that issue before, but it just works today for some reason ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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tantek.com edited /events/2014-05-06-iiw (+155) "realtime, session notes, see also" (view diff)
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bretttt someone taking ntoes?
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ben_thatmustbeme i'm just kidding, i'm thinking of the whole mess on twitter the other week
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@kevinmarks #iiw @benwerd: the #indieweb goal is for you not to lose anything by not being in the silos, by connecting to them (twitter.com/_/status/463758011937607680)
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: that "whole" mess was a bunch of folks overreacting to a tweet about posting notes on your own site
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tantek so apparently that touched a nerve
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@NZN #iiw @benwerd: #indieweb is about having your own space on the web - your own domain as your primary identity (twitter.com/_/status/463758119164968960)
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@cubicgarden RT @kevinmarks: #iiw @benwerd: we talk a lot in #indieweb about "silos" - dropbox, facebook etc who make money by locking up our data (twitter.com/_/status/463758121786032128)
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ben_thatmustbeme oh i know it was an overreaction, was just joking.
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bretttt benwerd++ great!
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Loqi benwerd has 18 karma
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@kevinmarks #iiw @benwerd: the #indieweb community practices what we preach - we build for our own sites not making standards for other people (twitter.com/_/status/463758429362737153)
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tantek.com created /2014-05-06-iiw-indiebox (+9970) "copy notes from the Etherpad" (view diff)
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ciberch oh that reminds me I finally bought ciberch.com @tantek
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KevinMarks yay!
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Loqi does a happy dance!
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@NZN #indieweb and #reclaim efforts very aligned @jimgroom (twitter.com/_/status/463758592487616513)
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tantek.com created /IIW (+28) "r to the latest" (view diff)
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KevinMarks I thought you'd get ciber.ch and be swiss
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bretttt encoding data into html, because that is the medium of exchange, today
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ciberch dammit !
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ciberch that would have been cool
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bretttt dangint, firefox keeps crashin
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@kevinmarks #iiw @benwerd: there are lots of small building blocks that we use to build the #indieweb - microformats are how we add meaning to web pages (twitter.com/_/status/463758784884506624)
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tantek.com edited /2014-05-06-iiw-indiebox (+81) "linky" (view diff)
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smagali I've got luckyred.cat
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@kevinmarks #iiw @benwerd: another building block is webmentions http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention that tell sites when you have linked to them (twitter.com/_/status/463758971179139072)
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smagali means I'll have to commission a catalan translation within 6 months of going live or they take it away
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@fdevillamil RT @kevinmarks: #iiw @benwerd: the #indieweb community practices what we preach - we build for our own sites not making standards for other… (twitter.com/_/status/463759058491965440)
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@kevinmarks #iiw @benwerd: by using these buliding blocks we can have likes, retweets, replies, and RSVPs on our own #indieweb sites (twitter.com/_/status/463759107996913664)
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tantek IndieBox session notes archived: http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-05-06-iiw
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tantek one more try: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014-05-06-iiw-indiebox
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ben_thatmustbeme out of curiosity, how big are these talks? how many people in the room?
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@kevinmarks #iiw @benwerd: currently this is mostly about publicly visible data, but we add authentication with https://indieauth.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/463759360926441472)
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KevinMarks 14 in the room
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tantek aaronpk - keep taking notes in the etherpad!
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snarfed ciberch: looks available! https://domai.nr/ciberch/with/ciber.ch
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bretttt raise those hands proudly ;)
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bretttt ciberch: get on that!
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@OhhSocialMedia RT @kevinmarks: #iiw @benwerd: another building block is webmentions http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention that tell sites when you have linked to them (twitter.com/_/status/463759907640987648)
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@OhhSocialMedia RT @kevinmarks: #iiw @benwerd: by using these buliding blocks we can have likes, retweets, replies, and RSVPs on our own #indieweb sites (twitter.com/_/status/463759921343778816)
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ciberch saweet
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@OhhSocialMedia RT @kevinmarks: #iiw @benwerd: currently this is mostly about publicly visible data, but we add authentication with https://indieauth.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/463759933784064000)
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ciberch Do you guys have a git repository to fork for the starter web server app to run
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bretttt holy crap, I think thats the way to state it
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@kevinmarks #iiw @aaronpk: there is an opportunity for "twitter apps" for your own site - use other people's apps to post to your own #indieweb site (twitter.com/_/status/463760373683077120)
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bretttt "Twitter apps for posting your own site"
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bretttt because man, people loved their twitter apps
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@HypernovaIO We make Homesteading for the #indieweb. (twitter.com/_/status/463760494688342017)
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KevinMarks ciberch - idno is one example.
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aaronpk are you guys hearing the live stream ok then?
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KevinMarks I have a static site...
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ciberch I have this thing https://github.com/ciberch/sinatra-cloudfoundry-basic-website
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk, yes, just fine
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KevinMarks http://indiewebcamp.com/projects
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aaronpk KevinMarks: bretttt is working on that!
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ciberch I can migrate it to use indie auth
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ciberch instead of fb auth
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bnvk URL to livestream?
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bretttt KevinMarks: are you hosting with github pages? or something similar?
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tantek hilarious to be taking notes for a session from *home*
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ben_thatmustbeme bnvk talky.io/iiw
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bnvk ben_thatmustbeme++
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme has 3 karma
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bretttt if you have a website that rebuilds on a push my project will fit closely
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ben_thatmustbeme hey bnvk, what a nice face
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aaronpk i need to carry my tiny projector around apparently
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ben_thatmustbeme :P
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bnvk :)
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bretttt invisiwave bnvk
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tantek.com edited /events/2014-05-06-iiw (+143) "Remote participation" (view diff)
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bretttt camera is not plugged in
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tantek aaronpk - darn - I have a pico projector you could have borrowed!
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aaronpk yeah didn't think about that!
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tantek so is the IIW crowd now considered Generation 2?
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bnvk freezing my talky video to not add to lag
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tantek bnvk - same here. and I muted too.
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aaronpk talky needs a broadcast option bear
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bnvk yep
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@MozillaContent interesting discussions so far include #IndieWeb #PersonalClouds #Identity & #CloudNames (twitter.com/_/status/463761732834324480)
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KevinMarks ben's head
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tantek hey benwerd - note that you receive federated RSVPs from other platforms too!
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KevinMarks he did say the rsvp came from fb
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tantek and no email list! :)
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bretttt What is #CloudNames?
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@kevinmarks #iiw @benwerd: it's an open community - there's an IRC channel: http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC and a wikihttp://indiewebcamp.com - all are welcome (twitter.com/_/status/463762718479372288)
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tantek FYI: why there is no mailing list: http://indiewebcamp.com/FAQ#Is_there_an_IndieWeb_mailing_list
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bretttt definately
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@NZN RT @kevinmarks: #iiw @benwerd: it's an open community - there's an IRC channel: http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC and a wikihttp://indiewebcamp.com - … (twitter.com/_/status/463763132301975552)
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bretttt i have moved a number of things back home off my VPS recently
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bretttt the connection is fast enough finally
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bretttt the key to home serving is fast internet
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bretttt i have found
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@NZN RT @kevinmarks: #iiw @benwerd: it's an open community - there's an IRC channel: http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC and a wiki http://indiewebcamp.com - … (twitter.com/_/status/463763271930355713)
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ciberch kylewm: got it maybe someone has their website's code on gtihub and can link us
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: nice going with using your domain name as your name in Etherpad
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tantek just changed mine to tantek.com
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ciberch I can help with a ruby version of a starter app
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@kevinmarks #iiw @benwerd: with silo'd sites there is na ethnocentric design as they're all made here in SF - indieweb is less SV dominated (twitter.com/_/status/463763403287166977)
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bretttt ciberch: my site is hosted entirely in github pages, http://bret.io/ please excuse the jankeyness
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kylewm ciberch: some, not all of the projects here are OS http://indiewebcamp.com/projects
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ciberch awesome looking now
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tantek ah yes, the "mainstream" question
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tantek see /Generations
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bretttt ciberch: also http://notenoughneon.com/ has its entire codebase on github https://github.com/notenoughneon/neonblog
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kylewm emmak++
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Loqi emmak has 1 karma
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@kevinmarks #iiw @aaronpk: there is a page on the wiki for wider adoption: http://indiewebcamp.com/generations (there's a page for everything) (twitter.com/_/status/463763867542118400)
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bretttt ciberch: I think idno is entirely on github as well
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bnvk it's awesome hearing everyone's voice- miss y'all
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bretttt miss you bnvk! come to portland for IWC!
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KevinMarks my crappy personal site https://github.com/kevinmarks/kevin-marks.com
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bnvk bretttt: :)
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ciberch Nice Kevin :)
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bretttt Im interested in eventually playing with home serving and caching service
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bretttt s
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@AAinslie RT @kevinmarks: #iiw @benwerd: we talk a lot in #indieweb about "silos" - dropbox, facebook etc who make money by locking up our data (twitter.com/_/status/463764353330974720)
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bretttt its key to eventually get that service data INTO the html file itself. working on that now
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tantek ok I seriously don't understand the "unhosted" handwaving
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tantek concrete example please?
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bretttt unhosted is cool model. would love to see more examples
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tantek with URL?
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tantek bretttt: I don't understand it enough to say why it is cool or not
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bnvk tantek: so my plan was to be in Berlin in June- perhaps jancborchardt will be around and perhaps we could do a mini-IWC on the same day as East / West... thoughts?
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tantek lots of handwaving here
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tantek "personal cloud server"
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KevinMarks https://github.com/unhosted
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tantek KevinMarks, example of an actual "unhosted" site? a pile of code and conference foo is not that interesting
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bretttt tantek: I went to one of their meetups. They are looking at ways to build apps so that the app code lives on a server, and you data lives in your browser. It works, but is totally novel so not many people work on it
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tantek why would I trust app code on some random server?
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tantek sounds not very indieweb
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bretttt its similar to micropub
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aaronpk i was going to say, similar idea
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aaronpk using other people's apps to post content to your own site
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kylewm i started out wanting to write an unhosted micropub client, but cross-origin restrictions got in the way
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bnvk I've seen an unhosted todo list app that ran on my iPhone and used localStorage... there was an option to sync to remote servers or apps as well IIRC
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bretttt kylewm: thats what I ran into a bit of. browser security is confuuusing
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tantek check out /Getting_Started
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@williamheath RT @kevinmarks: #iiw @benwerd: how to get started? one list is at http://indiewebify.me/ #Indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/463766304206249984)
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kylewm “6 different programming languages” ?
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aaronpk btw kevin is tweeting a bunch on the #iiw hashtag so you can follow more notes there https://twitter.com/search?f=realtime&q=%23iiw+kevinmarks&src=typd
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@kevinmarks #iiw @t: also look at http://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started to see where to go (twitter.com/_/status/463766365925801984)
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aaronpk kylewm: that was a slight exaggeration :)
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aaronpk maybe 6 different programming environments, cause i was doing raw php and someone else was using a php framework, i forget what
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kylewm ha ok :) piqued my PLT curiosity
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tantek I was using CASSIS+PHP
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bretttt idono -> known?
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tantek withknown.com?
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kylewm i keep wanting to ask what the most “esoteric” language people do indieweb stuff in, but obviously it’s CASSIS :)
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ben_thatmustbeme oh, had he announced the name before now?
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snarfed bad news for app.net, they're pushing it more into open source and starting to wind down the company. http://blog.app.net/2014/05/06/app-net-state-of-the-union/
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: name change
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aaronpk wat!
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bretttt CASSIS is just JS and PHP, so actually maybe the most common! kylewm
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tantek mysql--
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Loqi mysql has -1 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, i knew it was going to change, i take it this is the first time the new name is mentioned
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bretttt lol tantek
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aaronpk wow mysql has only -1 karma?
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bretttt snarfed: :(
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tantek why :( - I see an opportunity for some app.net fan to fork it and install it on their own site!
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ben_thatmustbeme mysql--
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Loqi mysql has -2 karma
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aaronpk now we can go in and add webmention support
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tantek yes!
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KevinMarks aha
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KevinMarks then I might actually use it
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snarfed oh man. what do i want even less than another silo account? an entire instance i have to maintain myself
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snarfed no thanks
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aaronpk snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 15 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme benwerd goes through a roll call of indieweb software
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KevinMarks which I failed to tweet
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kylewm satellite HWC in MV is a good idea in case other conference people want to attend too!
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jancborchardt bnvk: if it’s going to be end of June (like 26–29) I’m in! The other parts of June there’s ownCloud workweek and vacation
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tantek great job benwerd!
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tantek shall we do a talky.io for Wednesday night?
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ben_thatmustbeme great talk benwerd
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jancborchardt btw bnvk you coming to http://decentralizecamp.com/ in Düsseldorf in 2 weeks?
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@kevinmarks #iiw @benwerd: do come to Homebrew Website Club meetings on wednesdays in SF, Portland, Chichago + sunnyvale http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-05-07-homebrew-website-club (twitter.com/_/status/463768455271821312)
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bnvk jancborchardt: nah, I wish I was, but apartments, leases, budgets, etc...
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bnvk jancborchardt: the US event is on June 28, so that should work... I need to book my plane tickets and such, but let's chat real soon about this
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tantek aaronpk did you fix aaron.pk?
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KevinMarks OK, break for lunch, back at 2 for practical session
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tantek ok
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tantek I take it you guys can't hear me?
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tantek great job benwerd!!
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tantek waves
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bnvk speaking of custom domains- any of you ever in need of a .is TLD, hit me up ;)
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tantek bnvk - want to add that to http://indiewebcamp.com/short-domains#domains ? ;)
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jancborchardt bnvk: ok, that sounds real good!
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tantek.com edited /events/2014-05-06-iiw (+54) "linky" (view diff)
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jancborchardt bnvk: actually – I wanted to register an .is domain – I remember I got to the point of getting an account somewhere but never went through with it. You don’t need to be citizen of Iceland, do you?
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bretttt tantek: are you at iiw?
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tantek no
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tantek just been taking notes via talky.io :)
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bretttt ohhh
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bnvk jancborchardt: I believe you need a kennitala as a citizen or a business, so normally one needs to go through one of those purchasing agents
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bnvk jancborchardt: so either me personally or mailpile can buy for people :)
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tantek.com created /2014-05-06-iiw-intro-indieweb (+5550) "copy notes from etherpad" (view diff)
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kylewm huh, will be interested to read about the idno name change
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bretttt kylewm me too. i liked i'duno
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tantek yeah I thought "idno" was nice and short
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tantek.com edited /2014-05-06-iiw-intro-indieweb (+136) "linky linky and fix a few typos" (view diff)
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tantek !tell benwerd notes from your Intro to the IndieWeb session are archived on the wiki: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014-05-06-iiw-intro-indieweb
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek.com edited /2014-05-06-iiw-intro-indieweb (+34) "heading" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /2014-05-06-iiw (+35) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2014-05-06-iiw-indiebox (+26) "heading" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme i don't know why people think its such a good idea to move off of searchable names to non-searchable names. the only way i used to be able to find chef stuff was by searching for opscode.
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tantek.com edited /2014-05-06-iiw-intro-indieweb (+12) "IIW Session" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme they dropped the opscode and made the whole company chef, and it made searching for them on google so much harder.
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tantek.com edited /2014-05-06-iiw-intro-indieweb (+224) "Word document instructions" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2014-05-06-iiw-indiebox (+209) "Word document instructions" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2014-05-06-iiw-indiebox (+58) "per IIW convention" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2014-05-06-iiw-intro-indieweb (+58) "per IIW convention" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme well i think i have the token endpoint done. just need to create the actual micropub endpoint now.
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@ciberch RT @williamheath: RT @kevinmarks: #iiw @benwerd: how to get started? one list is at http://indiewebify.me/ #Indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/463775759937449984)
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@INVISPIDE http://indiewebify.me/ - a guide to getting you on the IndieWeb http://indiewebify.me/ (twitter.com/_/status/463777495938912257)
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /User:Ben.thatmustbe.me (+126) "/* OpenBlog */" (view diff)
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@tempo I love that IndieWebCamp is humming along, reminding us of why we got into this whole web thing in the first place http://indiewebcamp.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/463778926343766016)
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tantek.com edited /Main_Page (+7) "/* Homebrew Website Club */ comment out Portland for this week" (view diff)
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Loqi benwerd: tantek left you a message 39 minutes ago: notes from your Intro to the IndieWeb session are archived on the wiki: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014-05-06-iiw-intro-indieweb
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tantek welcome back benwerd
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tantek feel free to use the command line on that page to create a WORD .rtf document to submit to the IIW folks
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tantek j12t congrats on launching indiebox indiegogo!!!
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tantek.com edited /Main_Page (+453) "/* IndieWebCamp */ update next IndieWebCamp is the main event" (view diff)
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@brennannovak @runemadsen you should check out & come to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014 it is more of a maker / creator focused gathering than a conference :) (twitter.com/_/status/463784067402448896)
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tantek.com edited /Schedule (-4) "update to link to the next one" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Guest_List (-4) "update to link to the next one" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Schedule (+0) "this one" (view diff)
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@adactio RT @tempo: I love that IndieWebCamp is humming along, reminding us of why we got into this whole web thing in the first place http://t.co/t… (twitter.com/_/status/463784835136249856)
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tantek.com edited /2014/Schedule (+569) "update for East/West" (view diff)
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benwerd just read tantek's comment about rtf, is laughing
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@djbender RT @tempo: I love that IndieWebCamp is humming along, reminding us of why we got into this whole web thing in the first place http://t.co/t… (twitter.com/_/status/463785833963597824)
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tantek Your enterprise tool has been replaced by a one-line shell script.
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benwerd don't tell the folks at fatberg.org
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tantek so good
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tantek.com created /lulz (+37) "stub with fatberg" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu gregor`: HWC-Chicago for tomorrow?
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gRegor` Oh hey, that's tomorrow.
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gRegor` :)
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gRegor` Sure, I'm game.
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KartikPrabhu alright! RSVPing :)
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gRegor` lulz++
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Loqi lulz has 1 karma
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tantek.com edited /lulz (+54) "chicken (cc: benwerd)" (view diff)
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gRegor` Man, that snuck up fast. I haven't done much work since last HWC, heh
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kartikprabhu.com edited /events/2014-05-07-homebrew-website-club (+42) "/* RSVP */ rsvped" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /chicken (+79) "stub" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu good reason to have an HWC...
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tantek.com edited /chicken (+27) "see also lulz" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /events/2014-05-07-homebrew-website-club (+41) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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gRegor` Yep :)
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gRegor` You still working on fragmention?
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tantek benwerd, my apologies. ;)
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KartikPrabhu gregor`: hmm unknown. Haven't thought of an agenda yet :)
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benwerd :D
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gRegor` What the... chicken? Haha
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tantek gRegor`: you have no idea
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tantek (needs screenshot)
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gRegor` I'm tempted to make an "egg" page with contents "Which came first?"
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KevinMarks aha, nicked a better room
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benwerd indiethieves
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KartikPrabhu fatberg.org has too much synergy!
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KevinMarks back on https://talky.io/iiw
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gRegor` No Portland HWC, due to IIW I presume?
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tantek benwerd, aaronpk - can you take notes in KevinMarks's session?
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tantek on the etherpad?
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gRegor` Is there a password? The talky.io link doesn't have any a/v for me?
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tantek gRegor`: no pw
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benwerd aaronpk is on the case
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aaronpk packed room again
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ben_thatmustbeme gRegor, it has to think you have a camera, allow it to access your non-existant cam to get started
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gRegor` Oh, I think I had blocked it before.
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benwerd (this is a practical session so notes are probably less verbose)
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kylewm.com edited /idno (-64) "demisflanagan moved to jekyll 2014-04-13" (view diff)
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@Strabd @_zzak Yeh. I get Sinatra, I want to use DM (Mostly because I want to emulate some of the code in this project: https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieAuth ) (twitter.com/_/status/463790308640055299)
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@shawnokeefe RT @tempo: I love that IndieWebCamp is humming along, reminding us of why we got into this whole web thing in the first place http://t.co/t… (twitter.com/_/status/463791456809779200)
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@aaronpk RT @tempo: I love that IndieWebCamp is humming along, reminding us of why we got into this whole web thing in the first place http://t.co/t… (twitter.com/_/status/463791761672790018)
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@_jden RT @tempo: I love that IndieWebCamp is humming along, reminding us of why we got into this whole web thing in the first place http://t.co/t… (twitter.com/_/status/463791795344650240)
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aaronpk <3
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ben_thatmustbeme I have to go, cannot take notes anymore
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ben_thatmustbeme have to catch a train
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tantek who is talking in KevinMarks's room?
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aaronpk Justin from the OAuth group
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aaronpk Justin Richer
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tantek WTF does OAuth details have to do with How to join the IndieWeb?!¿
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aaronpk kevin made a snarky remark about oauth
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aaronpk and justin took offense
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tantek RelMeAuth does not depend on IndieAuth!
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tantek WTF
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tantek you don't need to assume. a bunch of use ARE doing things that are usable.
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tantek sheesh
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tantek aaronpk does Justin have his own website?
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aaronpk http://justin.richer.org/
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aaronpk oh wow he's on the board of Elgg?
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tantek aaronpk - tell him to add rel=me to his "Elsewhere" links :D
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tantek aaronpk - can you take notes in the Etherpad?
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gRegor` Video appear to have died
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gRegor` And back
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aaronpk benwerd: who is the guy in black on my left who said he was able to sign in to the wiki just now?
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aaronpk i can't see his nametag
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tantek what is Kaliya saying?
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benwerd Steve Williams, sbw.org
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tantek I can't understand it
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aaronpk thx
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tantek who is Kaliya talking about, what is their domain name?
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tantek always ask when people say, you should talk to so and so, what is their domain name?
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tantek and if they don't have one, make a note of it
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aaronpk futureoffish.com gabrielscheer.com
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tantek Always ask
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aaronpk "but it's not been used in months"
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tantek aaronpk -> etherpad please :)
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benwerd futureoffish.org
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barnabywalters thanks for all the note-taking aaronpk benwerd
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tantek "brought together into working groups" <-- also an anti-pattern
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tantek see also dataportability.org
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tantek how do you avoid wasting all your time in bureacracy?
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tantek List of Task forces
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tantek List of Action Groups
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tantek etc.
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tantek is going to get a sandwich.
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aaronpk bnvk: barnabywalters: do you know why indiewebify.me can't crawl http://gabrielscheer.com/ ?
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barnabywalters aaronpk: which test specifically?
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aaronpk "[curl] 52: Empty reply from server [url] http://gabrielscheer.com/"
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aaronpk web signin
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barnabywalters hrm that is weird
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gRegor` User-Agent blocking?
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: you around?
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: yep, what’s up?
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KartikPrabhu looking at the backcompat changes to mf2py. Why do you not need to import bs4 ?
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kylewm I actually removed the bs4 import
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KartikPrabhu yeah... how does that work?
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kylewm oh sorry I missed “not”
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KartikPrabhu so you did not remove it?
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kylewm I did remove it, it’s never referenced in the module
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kylewm just manipulated
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KartikPrabhu oh I see. so all the methods work as they are attached to the soup object...
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KartikPrabhu cool! thanks
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kylewm sure :) thanks for reviewing!
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KartikPrabhu kylemwm: 500 internal error on http://kylewm.com/api/mf2?url=http://silencematters.com/
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KartikPrabhu testing wordpress blogs for back compat
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kylewm ack!
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kylewm adding the stacktrace to the github issue, so I can fix it this evening
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GWG Afternoon
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gRegor` Aren't there h-event to iCal parsers already?
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gRegor` re: IIW at the moment
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gRegor` Nvm, the question got clarified
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gRegor` The question is an RSVP button on an mf2 event that is agnostic, opens whatever calendar software the user uses.
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aaronpk starting indieauth session in a minute
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aaronpk i'm going to get a loooot of pushback about URLs vs emails as ID and trying to punt it all
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aaronpk it's a different debate
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barnabywalters pretty sure it’s not a UA issue as fetching via cURL on the command line works fine
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barnabywalters can try from PHP
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barnabywalters ugh about.me’s blocking of cURL is ridiculous
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barnabywalters what are they even for
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: seems to be working fine on a post eg: http://silencematters.com/2014/04/27/honoring-baseballs-hosiery-heritage-2/
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benwerd back on notetaking duties for aaronpk
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kylewm interesting, that’s exactly the post it’s choking on in the feed
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kylewm
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benwerd 's indieauth site
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tantek Aaronpk let them eat FAQs re urls vs email
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benwerd also: http://withknown.com/ (just mentioning it)
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gRegor` Oh, it's an about.me site, barnabywalters?
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: weird! seems to be more of a redwind issue?
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barnabywalters gRegor`: er I don’t think so — just ranting about about.me :)
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: no it’s definitely mf2py, I mean it’s crapping out parsing the <h3> for the article baseball-hosiery-heritage-2
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@kevinmarks #iiw @sbw: is indieauth what I used to log into the wiki? @aaronpk: yes @sbw: I have a bug report (twitter.com/_/status/463802119334539266)
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KartikPrabhu benwerd: is that idno but with a diff name?
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: hmm weird that it isn't doing that on the actual post!
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@kevinmarks #iiw @aaronpk: if you have signed into http://indiewebcamp.com you have used indieauth already (twitter.com/_/status/463802242764525570)
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aheadrobot.com edited /IRC_People (+53) (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk, benwerd please note all the pushback about urls for identity.
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tantek The specifics
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tantek So we can debunk them all in the FAQ
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benwerd a great point was made earlier about bitcoin hashes for identity, which nobody seems to mind
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@kevinmarks #iiw @aaronpk: https://indieauth.com/ is a little confusing as it is doing two things (twitter.com/_/status/463802741815390209)
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tantek The bitcoin hashes example is hilarious.
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@kevinmarks #iiw @aaronpk: https://indieauth.com/ came from wanting to add relMeAuth to mediawiki on http://indiewebcamp.com (twitter.com/_/status/463802889601699840)
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@kevinmarks #iiw @aaronpk: instead of getting down in mediawiki code to add auth, I made https://indieauth.com/ do to auth as service (twitter.com/_/status/463803053187952642)
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@kevinmarks #iiw @aaronpk: by making https://indieauth.com/ a service, I could add a small plugin to mediawiki to talk to indieauth (twitter.com/_/status/463803234939711488)
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barnabywalters ah yep Gabriel’s site is blocking php-curl by UA string
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barnabywalters updating indiewebify.me to pretend it’s firefox
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@craigburton RT @kevinmarks: #iiw @aaronpk: by making https://indieauth.com/ a service, I could add a small plugin to mediawiki to talk to indieauth nice (twitter.com/_/status/463803385536200705)
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tantek Why?
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tantek barnabywalters: If he's blocking it he should unblock it.
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@hybridjesus RT @kevinmarks: #iiw @sbw: is indieauth what I used to log into the wiki? @aaronpk: yes @sbw: I have a bug report (twitter.com/_/status/463803497528324096)
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tantek Indiewebify should be a good robot
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upon2020.com edited /2014-05-06-iiw-indiebox (+122) "Added links" (view diff)
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tantek Or at least just make it an indiewebify option on the site
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@kevinmarks #iiw @aaronpk: I initially didn't expect anyone else to use https://indieauth.com/ originally (twitter.com/_/status/463803713140686849)
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: the BS object as argument PR looks good. will wait for you to diagnose that bug. In the meantime I'll keeping testing backcompat
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tantek [ ] pretend to be Firefox
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barnabywalters tantek: so what constitutes being a good robot? IIRC you’ve mentioned ignoring robots.txt being a good thing in the past
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tantek No I didn't say it was good
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gRegor` barnabywalters: yeah, I asked about UA because I found a random mailing list thread with the same problem at command line. They set a curlrc with User-Agent: curl and it worked
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barnabywalters ugh, I’d rather not add more UI options
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barnabywalters I’d rather make it report errors better
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tantek I said some bots ignore.
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barnabywalters tantek: okay, I misremembered.
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barnabywalters i.e. when this happens, suggest that is might be for this reason
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tantek Ok
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KevinMarks "he" in this case is Matt
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KevinMarks this is hosted on wordpress.com
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tantek And in that error page, put the checkbox :)
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KevinMarks so we should ping automattic
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barnabywalters (unrelated) this is rather a cool drawing of facebook: http://hugleikurdagsson.tumblr.com/post/20416217811/facebook-a-drawing-of-facebook-original-for
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tantek So you don't pollute the main UI
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barnabywalters tantek: actually yep that might be a good balance
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tantek Wordpress is blocking indiewebify?!?
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tantek Wtf
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KevinMarks looks like it
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KevinMarks smagali had the same issue
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tantek Put that on /WordPress
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tantek Document such misbehaviors
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@_subnet "IndieAuth is a way to use your own domain name to sign in to websites. It's like OpenID, but simpler!" https://indieauth.com/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/463804618288287745)
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barnabywalters maybe they got angry that if you test a .wordpress.com URL with indiewebify it says it’s a silo and promotes controlling your own domain :)
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gRegor` Wordpress.com is blocking curl based on UA?
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KevinMarks these are own domains that they host
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KevinMarks looks like it, can we isolate this to send a bug report
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barnabywalters KevinMarks: well, there’s not much I can do in that case then
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: thanks for catching that… looks like a non-trivial issue, I’ll check deeper tonight
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@benwerd Learning more about IndieAuth from @aaronpk. #iiw #indieweb https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/463804983960276992/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/463804983960276992)
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KevinMarks well, you cna try changing your UA, but we shoudl probably ask wordpress what's up
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@kevinmarks #iiw @aaronpk: we need to find an OAuth2 provider agreed on between indieauth and the user (twitter.com/_/status/463805202009571329)
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tantek-ipod Blog it first
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gRegor` barnabywalters: What UA was indiewebify.me using before? And which made it work with wordpress.com?
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barnabywalters gRegor`: I haven’t changed it yet — tantek persuaded me otherwise
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gRegor` Gotcha. Just asking so I can doc on the wiki
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snarfed wp.com isn't blocking curl…or at least, it's not just that
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snarfed curl http://gabrielscheer.com/ works fine for me
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barnabywalters snarfed: yeah but not from within PHP
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barnabywalters specifically, via Guzzle
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snarfed right, hence the "not just that"
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snarfed so we should figure out the actual cause before yelling at them
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gRegor` So it seems whatever UA PHP is setting in cURL is problematic. Correct?
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KevinMarks is this a crude spam vector blocking technique?
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barnabywalters evidently, as changing it to a firefox UA string fixes it
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snarfed we're operating on minimal information right now :P
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snarfed barnabywalters: if you all can determine the user agent you're using, that'd be a good first step
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snarfed ah, good data point
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barnabywalters it’ll follow this template: Guzzle/<Guzzle_Version> curl/<curl_version> PHP/<PHP_VERSION>
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gRegor` Yeah, that's what I was seeking. :) What's the current UA
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barnabywalters e.f. Guzzle/3.8 curl/1.1 PHP/5.4
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kbs curl -i -H 'User-agent: Guzzle' http://gabrielscheer.com/ - fwiw, that fails.
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KevinMarks if you change it to a UA that says indiewebify.me is it blocked
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kbs curl -i -H 'User-agent: indiewebify.me' http://gabrielscheer.com/ -- works
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barnabywalters so snarfed what UA string is your command-line cURL using?
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barnabywalters because clearly that is not blocked
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snarfed curl default
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snarfed looking now
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KevinMarks curl -i -H 'User-agent: indiewebify.me' gabrielscheer.com/
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snarfed KevinMarks++
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Loqi KevinMarks has 30 karma
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KartikPrabhu Blogger: gaaah! that point of putting microformats and microdata if the page is filled by javascript and can not be accessed by parsers! example: http://exptdesign.blogspot.com/2012/04/dark-theme-for-beamer.html
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KartikPrabhu s/that/what's the
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Loqi KartikPrabhu meant to say: Blogger: gaaah! what's the point of putting microformats and microdata if the page is filled by javascript and can not be accessed by parsers! example: http://exptdesign.blogspot.com/2012/04/dark-theme-for-beamer.html
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snarfed barnabywalters: curl/7.30.0
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barnabywalters snarfed: interesting
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gRegor` curl -i -H 'User-agent: curl' http://gabrielscheer.com/ -- works
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barnabywalters well if setting the user agent to indiewebify.me fixes it i’m fine with doing that
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KevinMarks blogger has a workaround for those stupid templates
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KevinMarks which I forget at the moment
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KevinMarks append a ? param
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KartikPrabhu hmmm
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KartikPrabhu well it is stupid!
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KevinMarks yes it is
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kylewm I have not seen a blogger layout like that before, yuck yuck yuck
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kbs randomly got me thinking - does google actually run javascript when it indexes? probably not right?
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KevinMarks it was an intern project one summer. the idea is nice ut too much done client side
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benwerd (not fully sure what the question was, tantek)
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benwerd (re your note on the notes)
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KevinMarks it can do
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KevinMarks there are things that require JS, and there is also the #! convention thing
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: that is the new Blogger templates... horrible shit
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gregorlove.com edited /WordPress (+303) "/* WordPress.com hosting service */ adding curl + wordpress.com issue section" (view diff)
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kbs KevinMarks: oh, never knew that. interesting - thanks.
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KevinMarks it didn't work on mobile for ages
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gregorlove.com edited /WordPress (+280) "/* Examples */" (view diff)
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KevinMarks anyone know Justin's twitter handle?
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gregorlove.com edited /WordPress (+26) "/* cURL Problem */" (view diff)
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KevinMarks ah zer0n1ne
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KartikPrabhu anyone know any sites using legacy microformats so I can run some tests?
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KevinMarks mine
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KevinMarks legacy hcard anyway
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KevinMarks also wordpress templates
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gregorlove.com edited /WordPress (+57) "/* cURL Problem */ IRC link" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu aah cool... thanks :)
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gRegor` This look good? http://indiewebcamp.com/WordPress#cURL_Problem snarfed barnabywalters tantek
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barnabywalters thanks! signing off to conserve battery, will check it out later
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KevinMarks this is now Justin RIcher and Aaron debating OAuth2 protocol spec nuances while we all look blank
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benwerd agrees, blankly
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kbs ah, that's too bad. I like Aaron (and the general tantek-driven I assume!) focus on working simple solutions.
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benwerd considering intervening. kevinmarks, do you second?
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@crizzirc RT @_subnet: "IndieAuth is a way to use your own domain name to sign in to websites. It's like OpenID, but simpler!" https://t.co/wmIR7RbgV… (twitter.com/_/status/463810668492120064)
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KevinMarks this is effectively a thesis defence for aaron's Auth PhD
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KevinMarks I think aaron is finding this useful
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benwerd ok
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benwerd I'll sit tight ;)
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KevinMarks Justin has spent 3 years arguing about OAuth2
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benwerd He was a major Elgg contributor so I'll forgive him
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@kevinmarks #iiw @zer0n1ne: @aaronpk should look up token introspection as an OAuth spec (which I wrote) - similar to IndieAuth token factoring (twitter.com/_/status/463811143996174336)
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gregorlove.com edited /WordPress (+106) "/* cURL Problem */" (view diff)
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KevinMarks !tell aaronpk have you put your new rel values in http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values ?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@hybridjesus RT @kevinmarks: #iiw @zer0n1ne: @aaronpk should look up token introspection as an OAuth spec (which I wrote) - similar to IndieAuth token f… (twitter.com/_/status/463812183327911936)
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gRegor` So this talk is making me glad I've not delved into Oauth
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KevinMarks aaron does oauth so we don't have to
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KevinMarks aaron++
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Loqi aaron has 1 karma
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KevinMarks aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 445 karma
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gRegor` aaronpk++
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Loqi dude
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gRegor` sweet
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@bluedroplet RT @_subnet: "IndieAuth is a way to use your own domain name to sign in to websites. It's like OpenID, but simpler!" https://t.co/wmIR7RbgV… (twitter.com/_/status/463812817959653376)
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gRegor` tantek: this look good? http://indiewebcamp.com/WordPress#cURL_Problem
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benwerd aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 446 karma
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kylewm fun google search https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aindiewebcamp.com%2Firc+aaronpk+has+karma
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gRegor` heh
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gRegor` synergy! drink!
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@kevinmarks #iiw @zer0n1ne: there's a lot of potential synergy between UMA and what the Indieauth delegation is trying to do (twitter.com/_/status/463813483285344257)
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kylewm what’s UMA?
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gRegor` Thurman
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KevinMarks User Managed Access
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gRegor` Or that.
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KevinMarks some auth rathole thing
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kbs lots of those :)
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tantek kbs - yes, simplicity comes from: 1) experience with microformats (and being a principle there). and 2) simpler = ship faster
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KevinMarks http://docs.kantarainitiative.org/uma/draft-uma-core.html
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KevinMarks now 2 of them are bickering
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kbs tantek++ - couldn't agree more :)
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Loqi tantek has 38 karma
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tantek benwerd, kevinmarks please intervene - what use-case is this hypothetical tangent supposed to be solving?
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tantek is this the DNS problem?
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tantek KevinMarks - they're wasting everyone else's time
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tantek in the session
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tantek instead of just in email like they presumably usually do
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tantek and this is why we have a *creators only* focus for IndieWebCamp
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KevinMarks I'm leaving it to aaron mainly as he wants some crypto feedback
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tantek "assuming you have an HTML parser" FFS
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tantek thanks for trying BenWerd
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KartikPrabhu wait don't we have an HTML parser?
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@domenicoperri RT @benwerd: Learning more about IndieAuth from @aaronpk. #iiw #indieweb https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/463804983960276992/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/463815070749704192)
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gRegor` It's sooo hard to parse HTMl, guys.
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tantek KartikPrabhu: not if you've got EnterpriseXML Goggles™ on
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tantek KartikPrabhu: or APIHackerJSON Goggles™ on
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gRegor` Haha
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KartikPrabhu I have been told that a couple of times here too, can't find refs
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tantek man, that's why these people will never get anything done. if they can't even "just" use HTML.
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@kevinmarks #iiw @kevinmarks: we have an HTML parser service in the cloud that will make it into JSON for you #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/463815443300376576)
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KartikPrabhu But after pushing code to mf2py I am sure HTML is mighty fine
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KartikPrabhu here is my argument "If I can write code to parse microformats after only about 6 months of learnin python, HTML parsing can't be that hard"
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tantek bingo
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tantek hmm - this is an interesting discussion now, token endpoint vs. auth endpoing
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tantek s/endpoing/sendpoint
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Loqi tantek meant to say: hmm - this is an interesting discussion now, token endpoint vs. auth sendpoint
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tantek s/sendpoint/endpoint
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KevinMarks HTML parsing is a library function now
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Loqi tantek meant to say: s/endpoing/endpoint
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: yup!
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tantek lol
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benwerd hopes there is coffee left
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tantek benwerd - how are you holding up? this is your first IIW right?
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benwerd not my first
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benwerd was at London, but that was a one-day event.
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tantek have you been buzzword bullied yet?
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KevinMarks me too, I haven't had any coffee yet
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kylewm !give benwerd coffee
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Loqi gives coffee to benwerd
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benwerd So far all indieweb sessions. Holding up well!
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tantek sorry, first IIW in MV - they're quite special
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benwerd But next session, not sure what I'm going to
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KevinMarks they closed the coffee during circle time which was just mean
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KevinMarks and we've been in indieweb track since
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benwerd still planning on showing up at the coffee stand with a funnel and a hose
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KevinMarks we got 3 people to login to the wiki with their own domains during the join the indieweb session
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tantek benwerd - well I mean with people like the person talking right now
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tantek KevinMarks - congrats!
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tantek did you get them to create User: pages that link to their domains?
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benwerd aaronpk does seem to genuinely be finding this useful
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tantek is there any evidence of their login?
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tantek benwerd - ok that's good to know
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tantek from here it just looks like he's being polite
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tantek ok now that bit sounded potentially useful
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tantek reducing level of knowledge required by the client
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@benwerd A standard isn't a standard until people are actively using it. And good standards are easy for people to adopt. #iiw #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/463817378556420096)
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KevinMarks I'd love to get aaron talking to the salesforce auth guru too
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benwerd tantek - yeah, I think he's trying to be helpful
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benwerd he's just very abrasive
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gRegor` Haha "indieweb, indiebox, and indiegogo are all completely unrelated?"
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KartikPrabhu wait is that a complaint/confusion people have?
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gRegor` It was overheard on the IIW camera, not sure who said it / context
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KartikPrabhu plays his not-a-dev card as an excuse for not watching the stream :P
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gRegor` tantek: http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=Special%3AListUsers&username=&group=&creationSort=1&limit=500 scroll to the bottom shows three accounts created today.
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gRegor` You didn't miss much in that last one, KartikPrabhu :)
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tantek gRegor`: whoa that's cool!
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tantek brianloveswords: you around NYC June 28-29?
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gRegor` aheadrobot.com added themselves to the IRC people page, too
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tantek bear, GWG you also around or could be around NYC June 28-29? http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Guest_List#East
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gRegor` Doesn't look like they joined the channel yet, though
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tantek gRegor`: nice!
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tantek editing the wiki is more impressive than joining the channel :)
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GWG tantek, I'll be.
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GWG What's going on?
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tantek GWG - great - RSVP!
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tantek IndieWebCamp 2014 EAST
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tantek first time ever
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GWG East?
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tantek yes
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tantek we hold an annual IndieWebCamp massive, usually in Portland
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tantek JeremyZ of NYT said he wanted to hold a simultaneous IndieWebCamp East
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tantek so we're doing it
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aaronpk whoa
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aaronpk catching up on logs now
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Loqi aaronpk: KevinMarks left you a message 32 minutes ago: have you put your new rel values in http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values ?
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tantek KevinMarks, benwerd, aaronpk - where are you potentially talky.io-ing next?
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GWG Sounds fun
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GWG We need a better setup for the video link
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GWG Not the software.
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@gravitydrift RT @benwerd: A standard isn't a standard until people are actively using it. And good standards are easy for people to adopt. #iiw #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/463820380180729857)
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GWG I had trouble hearing people when I came on at home
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aaronpk I think I need to move the comparisons to OpenID off of the indieauth.com home page and into a FAQ
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aaronpk especially now that openid connect is officially replacing all previous versions
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tantek aaronpk - YES
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tantek move it to the FAQ on the wiki
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tantek no need to have to bottleneck yourself with updating that stuff
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tantek.com created /Template:attendee (+31) "r" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk, the less text on the indieauth.com home page, the better in general
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kylewm blunt question, why does aaronpk own/run oauth.net?
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kylewm not that he shouldn’t, just curious how that came to be :)
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tantek aaronpk - looks like the IIW wiki does not like IndieAuth as an OpenID provider. Try logging in: http://iiw.idcommons.net/index.php?title=Special:OpenIDLogin&returnto=Special:OpenIDLogin
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tantek e.g. with your domain name
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tantek or heck - anyone try logging in there
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tantek anyone? Bueller?
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kylewm I can’t log in either
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tantek shorter URL: http://iiw.idcommons.net/Special:OpenIDLogin
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gRegor` tantek: "An error occurred during verification of the OpenID URL. " when I tried
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tantek that's what I got too
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@jgarber RT @tempo: I love that IndieWebCamp is humming along, reminding us of why we got into this whole web thing in the first place http://t.co/t… (twitter.com/_/status/463828799063203840)
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