#indiewebcamp 2014-05-15

2014-05-15 UTC
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pauloppenheim i'm not totally convinced the sandbox is sound until some finer minds than mine have had a look
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pauloppenheim but it appears sound from a high level, assuming containers, jails, etc
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pdurbin jedahan: hmm, you must be talking about http://www.crowdsupply.com/kosagi/novena-open-laptop
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jedahan why yes pdurbin
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pdurbin jedahan: you're getting one?
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jedahan yep
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jedahan I am hoping we get 46 more backers...then all non-bareboard backers get a free SDR with it
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jedahan and to be honest
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jedahan SDR is probably the easiest entry point for more software oriented people like me
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pdurbin jedahan: oh, it's your project?
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jedahan nope
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jedahan I'm just a backer
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pdurbin ok
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jedahan the only thing I can think of using the FPGA for is maybe...like a synthesizer
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jedahan i dunno
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pauloppenheim that's a little rich for my blood in both cash and time commitment, but it sounds cool
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snarfed !tell kylewm nice job handling webmentions for updated sources. rare to see that actually implemented
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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GWG snarfed: Got a minute?
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snarfed GWG: shoot!
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GWG snarfed: I've been soliciting thoughts again. I have this plugin I've started which replaces the comments template with a Facepile and mf2 compliant comments.
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GWG After some thought around here, I'm thinking of adding webmentions
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GWG What else fits into a plugin that takes over Wordpress comments of an Indiewebish nature
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snarfed hmm
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snarfed mf2 parsing is the big one. handling likes, reshares, rsvps, etc correctly
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aaronpk luckily you have php-mf2 to do all the hard stuff!
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aaronpk s/all/most of/
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Loqi aaronpk meant to say: luckily you have php-mf2 to do most of the hard stuff!
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snarfed having said that…the facepile part makes sense, but now this is overlapping with pfefferle's plugins. why do that, out of curiosity?
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aaronpk you may also be interested in this: https://github.com/indieweb/php-comments which tries to return sensible data for comment display given parsed microformats
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snarfed GWG: another thing that'd be useful to work on is intelligent handling of text in likes and reshares
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snarfed e.g. they should go into the facepile if there's no text, or if the text is just something like "X likes this," but if they have meaningful text they should probably display as a comment, maybe with an additional "like" indicator
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snarfed that'd be good work that complements your and pfefferle's existing stuff
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GWG snarfed: The parsing is done by the semantic linkbacks plugin.
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snarfed great! and webmention sending and receiving would be done by wordpress-webmentions?
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GWG snarfed: Yes.
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GWG This is a display plugin
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GWG I have a test, if you'd like to see
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GWG http://tiny.n9n.us/2014/04/25/video-embed-test/
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snarfed ah, great! ok. i was confused by the phrase "adding webmentions"
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GWG I can switch themes if you want
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snarfed ah, i see. you mean, adding mentions that weren't specifically replies, reshares, likes, etc
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snarfed extracting snippets intelligently would be another good thing to work on
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snarfed ie for a mention from a long article, you don't want to include the whole text, but you do want enough to give some context
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snarfed deciding what to extract, and how to render it, is an interesting problem
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GWG snarfed: Well, it is already in the database because the existing plugin has brought it in.
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GWG There could be a second extraction layer, I suppose.
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GWG Also, I was thinking about hovercards
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GWG https://wordpress.org/plugins/commentluv/
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GWG Also, this idea..
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snarfed Jeena: hey, just fyi, looks like your photo pages sometimes don't like webmentions: https://www.brid.gy/facebook/728407677#responses
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aaronpk wow http://staticsitegenerators.net/
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snarfed whee, the CMS developer tar pit is even bigger now :P
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Loqi kylewm: snarfed left you a message 2 hours, 42 minutes ago: nice job handling webmentions for updated sources. rare to see that actually implemented
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kylewm thanks!
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Loqi tantek: aaronpk left you a message 5 hours, 19 minutes ago: getting 502 bad gateway from http://cassisproject.com/
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Jeena !tell snarfed thanks, I will check that after I get home from work today
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi snarfed: Jeena left you a message 16 minutes ago: thanks, I will check that after I get home from work today
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Jeena hm this is not good. All favs of a tweet have the same url.
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snarfed Jeena: you mean the bridgy urls?
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snarfed oh i see, the u-url inside them. yeah, there's no fragment for individual favorites, sorry
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Jeena yeah, I will add a optional uid field, which bridgy provides
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Jeena then I can check for the uniqueness of the url and uid
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Jeena together
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snarfed good call
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Jeena I often wondered why not all likes/favs got to my page but kind of assumed they just were private on facebook or something so bridgy couldn't see them
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snarfed heh
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snarfed bridgy does indeed ignore private posts, but afaik comments and likes inherit their parent post's audience setting, so yeah, this may be it
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Loqi barnabywalters: snarfed left you a message on 5/14 at 10:38am: funny. i added the fb event oauth scopes after you signed up, so your bridgy access token doesn't include them. if you re-signup for bridgy, it should start backfeeding the rsvps
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barnabywalters has anyone here had any poor experiences with ZIP as an archival format?
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barnabywalters my archive of HTML+headers of pages I’ve linked to is growing rather large — around 160MB
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barnabywalters but compressed, it’s only 30MB
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barnabywalters at the moment it’s not a big deal, but as it gets larger I’m considering storing it in a ZIP archive permanently, and reading/writing it using PHP’s ZipArchive class
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cweiske why do you store them?
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barnabywalters cweiske: various reasons — as a personal archive of things I’ve linked to, in case they go away
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barnabywalters as a basic cache
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barnabywalters and in the future I might implement something which goes over my old posts, checks for broken links and displays the (unstyled) archived data instead
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cweiske how do you store the headers?
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barnabywalters also, so that if I improve the way I show reply contexts/comments from HTML, I can re-parse pages without re-fetching
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barnabywalters cweiske: just as a text file containing the HTTP header data
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barnabywalters I was considering storing the entire HTTP response in single text files, but then you can’t view the pages in a browser
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cweiske re-parsing is a good point
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barnabywalters that one is aaronpk’s idea
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barnabywalters cweiske: my archival code is here, if you’re interested: https://github.com/Taproot/archive
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barnabywalters for some reason, there is no .http format
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@tilgovi And cross-origin (cross-service) replies/linking/etc. #annopeer #webmention (twitter.com/_/status/466934701878706176)
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aaronpk barnabywalters: I just had an idea
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aaronpk rather than store the HTTP headers in a separate file, we can put them in the html file inside a comment block!
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aaronpk https://gist.github.com/aaronpk/381a6716017df75e66a1
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barnabywalters aaronpk: I had considered that! haven’t implemented it yet for several reasons
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barnabywalters mainly that it involves messing with the archived HTML, and requires extra parsing and pre-processing on reads+writes
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barnabywalters compared to just reading/writing from a text file
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aaronpk that's true, but I wonder if it ends up being more permanent than a side file for the headers
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barnabywalters it has the advantage of each file becoming standalone
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aaronpk should be pretty easy to make an archive parser that returns the two parts anyway
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barnabywalters but that’s not really a use case I’ve needed yet
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barnabywalters I’ll raise an issue on taproot/archive
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barnabywalters https://github.com/Taproot/archive/issues/1
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tantek if you're really looking to make the file standalone (not requiring special knowledge to interpret), you could translate the HTTP headers into <meta> tags
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tantek <meta http-equiv>
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barnabywalters tantek: that’s an interesting idea
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tantek and for each such meta tag, if it already exists, don't add it
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tantek so that the operation is idempotent
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tantek i.e. if you ended up serving that actual file from some webserver and then did the archive process on it again, you should end up with the same result
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tantek I believe with the addition of the meta status code we did for webmention handling, that should allow you to capture all the HTTP headers as meta http-equivs
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@hertling @designhawg @FCC @caseorganic What IndieWeb is doing for the web, we need IndieNet to do for the net. (twitter.com/_/status/466966726715142145)
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tantek !tell aaronpk cassisproject.com WFM - perhaps a transient PBWorks error? si(gh)los
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@adactio @sil Here’s how I’m doing it, using webmentions: http://adactio.com/journal/6495/ http://webmention.org/ (twitter.com/_/status/466974097352949760)
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rascul barnabywalters xz might be better for compression
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Jeena snarfed, I fixed the problem by adding the uid, and I see I got 54 likes from Twitter + Facebook on this image https://jeena.net/photos/9 but none from the indieweb! ^^
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bret i hadn't seen it o.0
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bret plus I still need to implement likes
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Jeena but I see there is a bug, int is not at all 54 likes, hm some of them are not unique!
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tantek lol: https://twitter.com/sil/status/466974861538394113
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@sil @adactio ooh, that's cool. Why not just use pingback? I assume the answer is "XML-RPC, man, why", for which I apologise :) (twitter.com/_/status/466974861538394113)
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@jjmajava Similarily very few "follow" individual blogs anymore. Makes me think: Could there be an #indieweb version of @medium http://qz.com/209950/the-homepage-is-dead-and-the-social-web-has-won-even-at-the-new-york-times/ (twitter.com/_/status/466980291530457088)
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tantek FYI @sil is one of the co-creators/co-editors of pingback.
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tantek welcome adactio!
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tantek we were just noticing the conversation between you and @sil
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snarfed Jeena: glad the bug is fixed!
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tantek oh hey look at that, Webmention got a Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebMention
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tantek what is wikipedia?
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Loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/Wikipedia
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tantek.com edited /Wikipedia (+220) "dfn, link, headings, note indieweb articles, see also" (view diff)
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Jeena after I implemented WebMention I just can not understand anymore why in Jesus name anyone thought Trackback or xmlrpc would be a good idea.
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adactio tantek: yeah, I need to make it clearer how web mentions is working on my site.
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@BarnabyWalters @sil @adactio fwiw, pingback was extremely valuable prior art for webmention, the first indieweb… http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4W5GfB/ (twitter.com/_/status/466981422532542464)
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adactio tantek: an illuminating little back-and-forth though. (I hope Stuart can come to a future Indie Web Camp)
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tantek adactio - you're not the only one. That pattern has been picking up.
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tantek of providing a URL input box
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adactio tantek: Oh, cool!
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tantek so any UX improvements you come up with will be quite handy to numerous folks
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rascul how do i leave a note for someone with Loqi ? i can't remember
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tantek !tell rascul you can tell Loqi "!tell tantek something"
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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rascul ahh ok thanks!
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Loqi rascul: tantek left you a message 18 seconds ago: you can tell Loqi "!tell tantek something"
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rascul !tell barnabywalters you might look at xz for compression instead of zip it usually compresses things quite good, 7z is also pretty good with compression rates
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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rascul thank you Loqi
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Loqi is done
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barnabywalters rascul: I’m right here :)
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rascul doh
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Loqi barnabywalters: rascul left you a message 18 seconds ago: you might look at xz for compression instead of zip it usually compresses things quite good, 7z is also pretty good with compression rates
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rascul you were hiding!
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barnabywalters thanks for the advice — I’ll check them out
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tantek adactio: see http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention##input+form and other mentions of "input form"
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@upbookings_ RT @jjmajava: Similarily very few "follow" individual blogs anymore. Makes me think: Could there be an #indieweb version of @medium http://… (twitter.com/_/status/466982618731655169)
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tantek (darn those fragmentions are useful)
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rascul barnabywalters with xz you'll probably want to put everthing in a tarball and compress that, but iirc 7z has both a compression and archive format
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barnabywalters rascul: the advantage of zip in this case is a) that it can archive a whole folder structure and b) that I can read/write it from PHP without extracting
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bret tantek: I think I started the webmention wikipedia article XD
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tantek bret - yes I checked the history ;)
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bret i should check back in on that
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barnabywalters in essence, it’s a little sandboxed filesystem
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rascul everything works with tarballs!
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Loqi agreed.
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rascul tarballs are what zip archives can only dream of being
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bret tar -xfvz
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bret err wait
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bret which one
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bret a wapper for tar with some intelligence about what you are trying to do is long overdue
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rascul wrappers are for newbies!
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rascul also with tar you don't need to - the options
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bret smartar folder - > results in a new archive
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barnabywalters well, looks like PHP has just as good support for manipulating tar archives as it does ZIP archives
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bret smartar somearchive -> extracts it
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tantek adactio - interesting that sil didn't notice that the very form he used took care of sending the webmention.
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tantek (which couldn't be done with xml-rpc)
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tantek perhaps a bit too seamless? ;)
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adactio :-)
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luxagraf question for those of you using filesystem-based publishing systems, are you storing your comments/webmentions outside of your post/note/whathaveyou and if so how?
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rascul barnabywalters i dunno about php's xz support though
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bret rascul: yes they are for newbies, but lower barriers is a good thing right?
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rascul perhaps
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barnabywalters luxagraf: I am — more info here http://indiewebcamp.com/Taproot#Mentions
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luxagraf barnabywalters: I have had zip archives go corrupt, never had tarballs do the same. just my 2cents
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bret reduces the gap between never using something and having that much more experience to learn the more advanced tool
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barnabywalters luxagraf: thanks for the data point!
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rascul ok now i go back to work for a few more hours
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tantek fascinating quick blog post about IndieWeb / Google Buzz / Open Social which I missed when it was published: http://kevinbeynon.com/article/34/webmentions_and_the_real_social_web
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aaronpk tantek: yeah cassisproject.com works for me now. yesterday i was getting the error on cassisproject.com and cassisjs.org but the wiki was fine, was just a problem with the redirect
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luxagraf barnabywalters: are your regular comments stored the same way? or do you do webmentions only?
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Loqi aaronpk: tantek left you a message 55 minutes ago: cassisproject.com WFM - perhaps a transient PBWorks error? si(gh)los
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tantek aaronpk very odd - perhaps my DNS provider was having issues
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barnabywalters luxagraf: the only non-webmention comments I have on my site are old ones imported from diaspora, all of which just have fake/approximated URLs
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luxagraf barnabywalters: gotcha. i'm trying to figure out the best way to store and then lazy load both on-site comments and webmentions with as few requests as possible
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tantek luxagraf: aside, if you're looking for backcompat in micro-markup for G/Y/B, uf v1 works for that
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tantek (and is easier/less code than microdata)
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tantek.com edited /Posts_about_the_IndieWeb (+135) "Webmentions and the REAL Social Web from 2013-09-16" (view diff)
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luxagraf tantek: thanks. that was my first plan, but now I think I'm leaning toward v2 + microdata because i see google eventually abandoning everything they don't control
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bret "si(gh)los" would make a good button/sticker
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tantek luxagraf - that's unlikely. they're motivated to support what is *published*
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tantek they abandon the crap they make up that fails to gain traction
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tantek digs up the history 
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kylewm luxagraf: I used to store mentions inside the note blob, but have since moved them to a parallel json file http://indiewebcamp.com/Red_Wind#Filestore
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aaronpk same
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luxagraf tantek: true
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luxagraf kylewm: what made you change?
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tantek luxagraf, example markup/data mechanisms that Google has abandoned, which were their own made-up stuff that they "controlled": Google Base schema, Google Data API/Elements,
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kylewm.com edited /Red_Wind (-32) "/* Filestore */ removed broken link to private repo" (view diff)
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tantek those are among a bunch of attempts that were abandoned, more in this blog post: http://microformats.org/2012/06/25/microformats-org-at-7
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luxagraf tantek: didn't they also abandon the markup behind those little chat/comment/whatever widgets people used to put on their site?
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tantek oh yeah. what were those called?
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bret opensocial?
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luxagraf tantek: might be, i don't remember. i just remember they were a pain to hide in my userstyles file
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kylewm luxagraf: just aesthetics really... I wanted my post files to be more text content than structured data (with the intention that I might edit them by hand some day)
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tantek bret - google has abandoned opensocial but not before it took on a life of its own in an enterprise-run opensocial foundation which limps along to today. not sure who or what is actually using it live on the web.
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bret oh crap i never even made the connection
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bret that came out of google's open social?
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bret ill go read about it
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bret actually maybe not i have better things to do
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luxagraf I didn't know that was from google's open social either.
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@sebfiedler RT @jjmajava: Similarily very few "follow" individual blogs anymore. Makes me think: Could there be an #indieweb version of @medium http://… (twitter.com/_/status/466988117824901120)
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luxagraf kylewm: that's pretty much my thinking as well, but it means i need some way to associate the two, which adds a layer of complexity that might be even worse long term
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luxagraf kylewm: I'm always worried my entire publishing system is progressing something like the architecture of the winchester mansion
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barnabywalters luxagraf: wanting to avoid difficult-to-maintain complexity was one of the reasons I went with URLs as the way of matching up responses to content
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@bretolius @jjmajava: @Medium could be THE indieweb medium… if they let us syndicate our writing using #indieweb standards: #webmention + @microformats (twitter.com/_/status/466988934879117312)
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barnabywalters it also gives me extra incentive to keep my URLs working :)
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kylewm luxagraf: hahah, yes ... a valid concern that i share. going through a phase of feature proliferation right now, hopefully in the future i'll remove the stuff i don't use/need
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Loqi nice
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aaronpk just installed the new Foursquare app - Swarm
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bret aaronpk: you mentioned medium people seemed interested in syndication right?
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aaronpk bret: KevinMarks was the one actually having that conversation with them
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bret oh right
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@t @sil, @adactio's "Let me know the URL:" form just HTTP POSTs a webmention. His wm endpoint fetches content & posts it. (ttk.me t4W51) (twitter.com/_/status/466991245286334466)
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tantek couldn't stand that not being made clear. especially since it's a distinguishing feature/ability of webmention over pingback
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tantek hoping I explained that clearly enough in so few characters
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@sil @t ya. I knew nothing of webmention until @adactio introduced me to it earlier :) (twitter.com/_/status/466991584542990336)
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luxagraf kylewm: yeah I'm in the process of adding 3 new data types and comments and webmentions
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luxagraf kylewm: then i'll see which ones i actually use and dump the rest
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aaronpk so interesting thing about Swarm, it's very well done
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aaronpk cool new feature for "plans" too
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aaronpk which actually makes me want to keep using foursquare now
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tantek aaronpk, does Loqi only see singular "webmention" and not "webmentions" in tweets? e.g. https://twitter.com/t/status/466993632935809024
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@t @sil a-ha. Nice side-effect of "just" using HTTP, simple HTML form (no JS) can send webmentions http://tantek.com/2013/258/t2/web-protocols-should-use-http-params-no-xml (ttk.me t4W52) (twitter.com/_/status/466993632935809024)
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aaronpk huh I suppose so
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aaronpk twitter search must only match full words
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luxagraf kylewm: I blame git. it's too easy to create branches
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tantek searches for indiewebs
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tantek ignores "indiewebs"
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brainTrain I prefer indiewebz
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brainTrain it's more webzy :p
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aaronpk k "webmentions" is added now
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tantek some stuff I missed here before: https://twitter.com/search?f=realtime&q=webmentions&src=typd
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aaronpk loqi might catch up on those
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aaronpk some of them anyway, not sure how far back search archives go
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adactio Here's a just-published rallying cry by the the brilliant Mandy Brown for publishing on your own website: http://aworkinglibrary.com/writing/index-cards/
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aaronpk "Even if you’ve never seen YAML before, you can probably figure this out at a glance." http://aworkinglibrary.com/writing/index-cards/##never+seen+YAML
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tantek nice! add it to Posts about...
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bret yaml is easy to use intill you actually start doing arrays and objects
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bret until*
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aaronpk arrays are pretty easy
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aaronpk arrays of objects less so
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bret ^^^
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bret which i used for some reason
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bret on top of that I used anonomous things mixed in
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bret like whaaat?
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bret this respect network thing is nutty
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bret here is your user name now pay us
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tantek bret - feel free to details to the nuttiness: http://indiewebcamp.com/Respect_Network
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tantek oh we got that one: http://indiewebcamp.com/Respect_Network#Membership_Fees
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bret i just got an invite today, figured I would take a peek
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tantek btw - heads-up this is going out on Monday: http://www.w3.org/2013/socialweb/social-wg-charter.html (not official yet)
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tantek feel free to AMA
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@t @sil a-ha. Nice side-effect of "just" using HTTP, simple HTML form (no JS) can send webmentions http://tantek.com/2013/258/t2/web-protocols-should-use-http-params-no-xml (ttk.me t4W52) (twitter.com/_/status/466993632935809024)
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@adactio @sil You said it. :-) I never would’ve been able to implement pingback. I implemented webmentions in an afternoon. (twitter.com/_/status/466980166724366336)
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tantek To be clear about one thing, I still intend to focus on this community first (including contributions here in IRC and on the wiki). I was asked to help W3C hopefully make some (re-)use of IndieWeb tech (and community practices).
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luxagraf tantek: can you say who else is participating?
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tantek luxagraf - so far just the folks named in the charter page I linked to
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tantek but that's how these things start at W3C, and then they send it out to the companies / members of W3C to officially approve and say whether they will send a representative
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tantek aaronpk, any early reports on Swarm? indieweb connotations?
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luxagraf tantek: once that charter is up it might be interesting to add a community group that's someone related
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luxagraf that's worked out well for responsive images
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tantek luxagraf - in a case where there isn't already a community, I would agree.
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tantek however, I'd say #indiewebcamp serves that purpose already
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tantek not sure what a CG would add to that mix
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tantek and may take away
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luxagraf absolutely, i was just thinking community group might have more pull with the W3C, which seems to discount things not under its auspices (from what I've seen)
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tantek right - I think that's one of the reasons they asked me to co-chair, was to bring more pull from IndieWeb into W3C
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luxagraf s/someone/somewhat
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luxagraf gotcha
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tantek my hope is to fight that tendency of "seems to discount things not under its auspices "
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tantek I've been working to get W3C to more accepting of other standards efforts like WHATWG, microformats, and indiewebcamp related tech as well
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tantek to *be more accepting
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kylewm luxagraf: re: previous conversation about frankenstein architecture. my biggest itch right now is that i want to generalize {notes,replies,likes,reposts,articles}, so that they can be more than one thing (e.g., an article can be in reply to something), and new types (e.g., "bookmarks") can be added without changing code
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luxagraf tantek: come now, don't ruin the standards soap opera by getting consensus :-)
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tantek lol
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tantek kylewm - what do you think of the brainstorming here? http://indiewebcamp.com/posts#Inferring_post_kinds_from_properties
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tantek and aaronpk's article has a good longer analysis as well: http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2012/10/22/1/creating-content-on-the-indie-web#indieweb-posts
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tantek kylewm - feel free to add to that analysis on the /posts page
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tantek I think it's a challenging problem that none of us has quite figured out yet
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aaronpk it's probably time to follow up on that post now that i've actually created a bunch of content since then and have implemented photos
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luxagraf kylewm: back when friendfeed was big and everything was a "life stream" my cms became more abstracted like that
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kylewm tantek: cool, thanks for the pointers! right now all my stuff has the same data structure and presentation internally, so it's weird to me that i have these types hardcoded. can definitely see how photos/checkins/events would merit their own top-level type
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luxagraf but i ended up dumping that idea and going back more specific content types because I realized 90% of what I did was articles anyway
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jonnybarnes oh, wheres snarfed when you need him :P
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kylewm I think my goal is definitely smaller than "unify everything" ... I really just want to get rid of reply/repost/like as separate types in my code
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luxagraf kylewm: i can see that. those sort of seem like things inherited from silos that might not make sense outside of them?
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kylewm exactly!
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kylewm jonnybarnes: need snarfed for activitystreams knowledge?
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luxagraf reply always makes sense, but, in my cms at least that's just a url field. If that field is filled, the post will get in-reply-to class if not then it won't
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jonnybarnes kylewm: for bridgy stuff, I've just moved VPS so my site was down for a little while, which just happened to coincide with someone favouriting one of my tweets
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jonnybarnes so the webmention that bridgy sends currently has a u-like-of for the twitter link and a u-like-of for the short link
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jonnybarnes normally it also has a u-like-of for the full link as well
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jonnybarnes without my site wont actually parse the webmention
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luxagraf nevermind the fact that I've never actually used said field, it's there, just waiting.
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kylewm oh interesting, so it cached the failed redirect
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aaronpk wow so many things I like about the new swarm app
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jonnybarnes yup
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aaronpk will try to do a quick writeup
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tantek interesting. ok, downloading swarm.
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aaronpk it puts the old foursquare app to shame
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tantek aaronpk, I'm just glad I have Checkie, and Foursquare v4 (the pinnacle of their UI IMO) to compare!
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aaronpk i might even use swarm more than checkie now. we'll see
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tantek aaronpk, don't forget 4Sq UI went downhill after v4 to v7
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aaronpk i can't remember what v4 was, do you have screenshots?
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tantek I can make screenshots :)
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tantek such a clean UI
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aaronpk that would be fantastic! a quick blog post maybe? or a /Foursquare-v4 page?
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tantek yeah I think it's in my queue to do a post like that.
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tantek for now I guess I can take screenshots on demand or something
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tantek if you'd find it useful
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aaronpk I would love to see them, even just a few screenshots of the main screens on a wiki page would be useful
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tantek ok maybe when I've got a screenful of folks checking in a "public" thing like an event or something
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tantek I'll start with the main screen
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tantek aaronpk, feel free to stub /Swarm also :)
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KartikPrabhu1 tantek: out of curiousity, any reason JSON is prefered data-syntax for "Social Data Syntax"? << tantek
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aaronpk i was wondering about that too, heh
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tantek because I haven't finished fighting the "shipping code wins" battle
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aaronpk figured it was something like that :)
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tantek oh don't worry, there'll be plenty of questioning of such things like that
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KartikPrabhu1 I figured that... but W3C itself has microdata and all that, but they still want JSON...
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tantek also, should you or any of your companies want to get involved in the WG, you can do that too ;)
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tantek aaronpk, is ESRI a W3C member?
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tantek KartikPrabhu1: nope, W3C has abandoned microdata
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aaronpk good question
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KartikPrabhu1 \nick KartikPrabhu
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tantek they made it into a "Note" which is a way of saying "no one cares enough about this work at W3C for it to continue here"
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KartikPrabhu tantek: oh... didn't realise microdata was ditched
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aaronpk if esri is, it's in relation to the GIS formats they've developed long ago
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aaronpk no mention here http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Member/List#xE
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aaronpk is that list always complete?
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tantek yes
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tantek do you know how ESRI decides which standards orgs it decides to participate in and not?
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aaronpk no
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tantek KartikPrabhu: microdata is maintained now only in the WHATWG HTML "living specification" which contains all the WHATWG extensions to HTML in various stages.
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KartikPrabhu i see...
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tantek but no one at W3C cared enough about it to continue working on it. so that says something.
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tantek aaronpk, yeah, up to you whether you think it's worth it for ESRI to join W3C to pursue it there. http://www.w3.org/Consortium/join.html
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KartikPrabhu read this last night: http://diveintohtml5.info/past.html the whole process seems like a lot of work :P
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aaronpk looks like they are part of OGC
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luxagraf i did not know that (microdata), is that fallout from the rdfa is better drama?
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tantek luxagraf - I think in that drama both were burned, or certainly left a burning smell.
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tantek eventually it fell to apathy
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KartikPrabhu should resume my RDFa debate with Ruben Verbogh
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tantek KartikPrabhu: most RDFa folks have moved onto JSON-LD
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KartikPrabhu tantek: not "academics" ;)
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luxagraf ugh json-ld is what made my realize the schema people were crazy
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KartikPrabhu looks up json-ld
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luxagraf see also: url
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kylewm jonnybarnes: afaict bridgy doesn't try to follow redirects when constructing the fake HTML page that represents the like/comment
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kylewm jonnybarnes: it's extremely possible that i'm wrong though :)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: shaners wrote a critique: http://iamshane.com/articles/2013/8/8/1/json-ld-is-an-unneeded-spec
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aaronpk WHOA! tapping the "checkin" button in the foursquare app now launches Swarm
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kylewm jonnybarnes: nm, i was in fact wrong,
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jonnybarnes kylewm: do we know if we can get bridgy to re-attempt checking redirects?
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KartikPrabhu "Linked data - That's just the web, right?" nice!
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tantek aaronpk - not in my Foursquare v4 ;)
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aaronpk i'm surprised that app still even works! they've been making breaking api changes and everythiung
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kylewm jonnybarnes: it should re-check them eventually, i do not know exactly how long the memcache life is, but it's not very long
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kylewm yeah the oldest thing in the memcache is 12minutes old :)
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adactio Interesting. Instapaper is implementing fragmentions: http://bthdonohue.com/post/85643490431/instapaper-fragmentions (I'm sure you've all probably all seen that already but I just found out)
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kylewm google app engine's free memcache is tiny
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tantek adactio - yes, KevinMarks was quite pleased with that :)
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KartikPrabhu adactio: didn't know that! pretty cool
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KevinMarks And shipping support in their browser extensions
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aaronpk and on the complete opposite end of the spectrum, I'm super disappointed that instagram dropped foursquare's venue database and replaced it with facebook. the venues are *so bad* now
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tantek aaronpk, yeah :(
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tantek aaronpk, any additional insight / criticism you can add on that appreciated: http://indiewebcamp.com/Instagram#Switch_from_Foursquare_to_Facebook_venues
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tantek A tale of two Instas
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Jeena snarfed
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Jeena oh he is offline hm
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luxagraf can someone clear this up for me, why would the body of a comment get p-summary (as per http://indiewebcamp.com/comment-presentation#Display_received_comments_brainstorm) ?
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tantek luxagraf - that frag appears to be broken, could you retry?
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kartikprabhu.com edited /events/2014-05-21-homebrew-website-club () "(-633) /* Homebrew Website Club Meetup */ removed Chicago for 2014-05-21" (view diff)
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luxagraf how about: http://indiewebcamp.com/comment-presentation##The+post+the+comments
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kylewm aaronpk: do you handle mentions w/ fragments? ref https://aaronparecki.com/webmention/4jGzYs0t
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KartikPrabhu luxagraf: I'd use p-summary only if it was a summary or truncated version of the reply. If it is the full reply I'd use e-content
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luxagraf KartikPrabhu: that's what I was thinking, but then that example uses p-summary
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KartikPrabhu i feel that is just an illustrative example and not a strict markup
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kylewm aaronpk: actually, even if you do i think the problem is on my end, I'm removing the fragment before rendering the link!
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Jeena Facebook is weird, I posted one photo via their API and they seem to have created two posts #1 https://www.facebook.com/728407677/posts/10152811493287678 and #2 https://www.facebook.com/728407677/posts/10152811493327678 which have identical content + comments + likes.
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Jeena Sadly now they send the likes for both of their posts to bridgy which sends it to me with different uid:s so many of the likes appear double on my page :-/
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jonnybarnes Jeena those URLs are the same
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jonnybarnes oh no there not
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Jeena it is hard to tell but 3 numbers are different
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jonnybarnes two digits are different
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Jeena or two yeah
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jonnybarnes that fooled me for a second
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Jeena it took me a while too, I had to make a string diff to get that ^^
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aaronpk kylewm: interesting, not sure why I wouldn't be handling fragment mentions
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KartikPrabhu me too!
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aaronpk (also wow that webmention status url is super handy)
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kylewm aaronpk: got it, i should've known better than to doubt you, https://aaronparecki.com/webmention/SBwHkuXe
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kylewm and yes, status url is awesome
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aaronpk oh that one worked? what was wrong with the last?
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Jeena in my timeline it only appears once and every like on facebook appears on both posts
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luxagraf Jeena: That's the NSA's shadow Facebook
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tantek luxagraf better!
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Jeena but why can't they make it invisible for bridgy?!!!!
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kylewm aaronpk: the first one sent the webmention with target=..#fragment, but my actual post was rendering the u-like-of without the fragment. so the urls didn't match
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aaronpk aha!
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aaronpk so it was telling you exactly what was wrong :)
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aaronparecki.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:instagram-custom-location-search.png]]""
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aaronparecki.com edited /Instagram (+674) "/* Switch from Foursquare to Facebook venues */ add note about custom locations" (view diff)
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tantek luxagraf - that p-summary is on the comment being displayed on an article. The implication being that in general comments that are displayed may have summarized (or truncated) the actual content from the original reply post.
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luxagraf tantek: okay, makes sense i guess
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tantek.com edited /comments-presentation (+305) "/* How to markup */ add why p-summary explanation, and heading for empty in-reply-to" (view diff)
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tantek luxagraf - good question and certainly not obvious from the markup. now documented.
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tantek aaronpk - did you mean for the Custom Locations to be a subsection of the Switch … Venues criticism?
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aaronpk yeah...it made sense at the time
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tantek trying to understand how it is a criticism
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aaronpk huh
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tantek also splitting apart the venue db change criticism from the See also citations about the venue db change? now really confused.
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aaronpk yeah i guess it's a separate thing, i'll move it
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aaronparecki.com edited /Instagram (-2) "/* Switch from Foursquare to Facebook venues */ reorder sections" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Instagram (+67) "/* Custom Locations */ call out Uneditable nature as the criticism" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu anyone use Ubuntu browser: http://design.canonical.com/2014/05/the-browser-is-dead-long-live-the-browser/ ?
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luxagraf KartikPrabhu: not saying they didn't, or that testing is everything, but there's a whole lot of "we believe" in that post and not a whole lot of our "user testing has led us to believe"
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aaronpk yay @4sqsupport favorited my tweet :)
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KartikPrabhu luxagraf: yeah agreed. also the current "browser" on Ubuntu is kind of shitty
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luxagraf KartikPrabhu: you mean the mobile version of ubuntu?
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KartikPrabhu luxagraf: no. the desktop version. Can't find any details as the brwoser has no controls for settings
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luxagraf KartikPrabhu: huh, i didn't even know there was an ubuntu browser, i thought it was just firefox...
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KartikPrabhu the trouble with Ubuntu is they are designing everything for a touch-world and so becomes annoying to use on desktops
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KartikPrabhu luxagraf: I think this is new in the latest 14.04 version
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luxagraf KartikPrabhu: that i reviewed for ars technica and others, so it sorta worries me that didn't even know it was there :)
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KartikPrabhu ha!
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KartikPrabhu it is called "Ubuntu Web Browser"
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luxagraf KartikPrabhu: that must be some kind of backport from the mobile version... or a rebranded Epiphany or something
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KartikPrabhu yeah I think so too. It is horrible to use on desktop. Particularly the "click near the bottom edge" to see the location bar
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: Unity (on desktop, not touch) has kind of grown on me over the years. I like it quite a bit better than Gnome Shell
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: I got pretty annoyed by Unity and switched back to Gnome Shell
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tantek invites KartikPrabhu, luxagraf, kylewm to #indiechat on the subject of Gnome ;)
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KartikPrabhu hey stop kicking us out/in :P
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tantek KartikPrabhu: just thinking of those reading the archives later who aren't here to speak for themselves :)
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kylewm sorry, that's my fault for the non-web tangent
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KartikPrabhu tantek: regarding IWC-NYC, when do people usually arrive for those things?
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tantek KartikPrabhu: I'm planning on getting there the night before, hopefully during the day
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tantek thinking it would be nice to do an informal drinkup before the camp
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tantek that's gone well at previous IndieWebCamps
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KartikPrabhu i see... cool
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tantek and I think Portland (West) will be doing that so we should too ;)
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aaronpk yes we probably will!
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jonnybarnes kylewm: the webmention thing has now fixed itself
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kylewm jonnybarnes: i saw that! it's cool how many bridgy things work themselves out on their own
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kylewm snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 22 karma
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tantek is going to go for a walk to try out Swarm. Wondering what implications it will have for checkin posts and web notifications.
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@withknown We're super-excited to be a part of the @mattervc's new class of startups! http://matter.vc/announcing-matter-three/ Watch. This. Space. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/467033997743116288)
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@withknown We're super-excited to be a part of @mattervc's new class of startups! http://matter.vc/announcing-matter-three/ Watch. This. Space. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/467034318817075200)
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kylewm.com created /kylewm (+29) "redirect to user page" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /User:Kylewm.com (+53) "added <dfn>" (view diff)
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aaronpk PSA: the first weekly #indieweb newsletter will be sent out tomorrow!
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aaronpk http://indiewebcamp.com/this-week-in-the-indieweb
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aaronpk let me know if you want to receive it via email!
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rascul me!
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aaronpk added!
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tantek aaronpk++ for setting up the weekly indieweb newsletter!
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Loqi aaronpk has 461 karma
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aaronpk I hope to make incremental improvements, so feel free to add suggestions to the wiki page!
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tantek.com edited /this-week-in-the-indieweb (-3) "TOC at the bottom for easy linking to headings" (view diff)
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tantek I see you already added mine re: pages that receive webmentions! http://indiewebcamp.com/this-week-in-the-indieweb#Ideas
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aaronpk yep!
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tantek I wonder if there's a way to include "IndieWeb Events Next Week" automatically
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jonnybarnes aaronpk: can you add me? jonny@jonnybarnes.net
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aaronpk ooh
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aaronpk added jonnybarnes and kylewm!
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tantek tries pin13 uf2 parsing /events
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aaronpk the /events page is all microformatty so it should be easy to parse!
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aaronpk i'd want to include the events that have happened in the past week as well as the ones coming up
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tantek maybe two different sections?
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aaronpk yeah
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tantek events last week would be particularly cool if they could show photos from those events
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tantek frankly, photos in a newsletter of text would make it really stand out
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aaronpk add to the ideas list!
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tantek will do - wanted to brainstorm out loud a bit to see if anyone would poke holes or suggest obvious better things first ;)
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tantek uh oh
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tantek going to quit and reconnect
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tantek what is IRC?
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Loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: me@kartikprabhu.com
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KartikPrabhu for newsletter
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aaronpk KartikPrabhu: added
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jonnybarnes anyone here use nginx?
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aaronpk what is nginx?
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Loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/nginx
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KartikPrabhu For any Neil Gaiman fans: http://www.carnegiehall.org/Calendar/2014/6/27/0800/PM/Neil-Gaiman-The-Truth-is-a-Cave-in-the-Black-Mountains/ happening a day before IWC-NYC
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tantek KartikPrabhu: ooh- add it to the /2014 page!
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rascul jonnybarnes i use the nginx
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tantek and btw it's IWC EAST :)
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jonnybarnes that page doesnt answer my questino
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KartikPrabhu aah ok :)
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aaronpk jonnybarnes: well there's 4 people listed there who do
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KartikPrabhu tantek: add to Other activities?
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aaronparecki.com edited /nginx (+9) "move TOC to bottom" (view diff)
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jonnybarnes can I do location /directory { rewrite ^/foo ...
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jonnybarnes } to match /directory/foo? Or more in particularly I'm trying to install owncloud but not to its own subdomain
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tantek KartikPrabhu: sounds good
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tantek maybe in East and West subsections
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jonnybarnes to domain.com/owncloud
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aaronpk jonnybarnes: that also kinda depends on the software, whether it understands it's installed in a subfolder
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jonnybarnes looking at the stuff here:http://doc.owncloud.org/server/6.0/admin_manual/installation/installation_source.html#nginx-configuration
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aaronpk it's more a question about owncloud, which I unfortunately can't help you with
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jonnybarnes being as location / { } points to a laravel folder
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rascul http://stackoverflow.com/questions/21645068/nginx-and-owncloud-in-subfolder
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kartikprabhu.com edited /2014 (+367) "/* Other Activities */ added Neil Gaiman's reading performance" (view diff)
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rascul i dunno much about owncloud either
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tantek.com edited /IRC (+584) "dfn, subheads" (view diff)
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tantek what is IRC?
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Loqi IRC is an abbreviation for Internet Relay Chat and is the primary discussion forum for the indiewebcamp community, in particular the #indiewebcamp channel on the irc.freenode.net server http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC
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tantek much better, thank you Loqi
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aaronpk nice
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tantek.com edited /silo-quits (+283) "add subheads for people" (view diff)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: we should invite Neil to IWC East, per his blog posts: http://indiewebcamp.com/silo-quits#Neil_Gaiman - if you know him, or of a way to contact him, let him know!
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tantek what are silos?
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Loqi A silo, or web content hosting silo, in the context of the IndieWeb, is a centralized web site typically owned by a for-profit corporation that stakes some claim to content contributed to it and restricts access in some way (has walls) http://indiewebcamp.com/silos
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KartikPrabhu tantek: I wish I knew Neil Gaiman! :P
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tantek what is nginx
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Loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/nginx
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tantek hmm
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tantek.com moved /nginx to /Nginx "capitalize per canonical project/product name from their website"
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tantek what is nginx
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Loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/Nginx
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tantek.com edited /Nginx (+7) "tweak dfn, put "." outside parenthetical expression" (view diff)
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tantek what is nginx
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Loqi Nginx is one of the two commonly used HTTPd server projects (Apache being the other) http://indiewebcamp.com/Nginx
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aaronpk ha nice
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tantek much better
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aaronpk subtle
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tantek I had a feeling a regex might be doing paren matching before looking for the "."
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aaronpk it's actually looking for a sentence terminator followed by a space
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aaronpk http://rubular.com/r/pa0BDg8UFb
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tantek sensible
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tantek who uses nginx?
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aaronpk that was the simplest definition of "sentence" I could think of
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tantek.com edited /Nginx (+154) "subhead re-arrangement, clustering, why, how to, move files without extensions to a how to, move TOC to more easily skim how to" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk, Loqi could answer questions of the form "who uses xyz" simply linking to /xyz#IndieWeb_Examples to start with
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tantek.com edited /webmention (+36) "/* IndieWeb implementations */ IndieWeb Examples" (view diff)
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tantek also would answer questions of the form "who supports xyz", e.g. who supports webmentions
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tantek questions of the form "why xyz" or "why should I use xyz" or "why should I support xyz" could be answered by linking to /xyz#Why, e.g. "why should I support webmentions"
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aaronpk greps IRC logs for occurrences of those phrases
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pdurbin aaronpk: no fair. how can the rest of us grep the logs? :)
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aaronpk pdurbin: you don't keep your own logs?
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tantek lol
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aaronpk my IRC client logs everythign to text files
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aaronpk that's what i'm grepping
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tantek aaronpk, fair enough, I was generalizing from "anyone here use nginx?"
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aaronpk literally grep -Ri "who uses" */freenode/#indiewebcamp.*
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tantek as equivalent to "who uses nginx?"
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aaronpk https://gist.github.com/aaronpk/2271982724315190756d
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aaronpk interestingly, "who uses" shows up a lot, and in difficult-to-parse ways
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pdurbin aaronpk: I do, I do, but what if you were to "liberate" that data... make it available for download... I haven't been here since the beginning
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KevinMarks https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aindiewebcamp.com+inurl%3Airc+grep
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aaronpk pdurbin: I could create another btsync folder of the IRC logs
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pdurbin aaronpk: I don't know what that is but I like the sound of it
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aaronpk more here: http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/backup
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pdurbin gotcha, nice
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pdurbin for work I make the nightly database dumps of irc logs available for download: http://dvn-vm1.hmdc.harvard.edu/data/mysql/
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KevinMarks https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aindiewebcamp.com+inurl%3Airc+%22who+uses%22
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KevinMarks A lot of who uses WordPress
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tantek.com created /Loqi (+589) "stub with dfn, ideas" (view diff)
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tantek who is Loqi?
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Loqi Loqi is a friendly and useful bot present in the #indiewebcamp IRC channel and other channels http://indiewebcamp.com/Loqi
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tantek :D
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tantek.com created /loqi (+18) "r" (view diff)
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GWG Good eveningf
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tantek !tell tommorris looks like rumors of this fall's IndieWebCampUK are spreading: https://twitter.com/adactio/status/466980367291789312 - hoping to see your start on http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/UK soon! :)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KartikPrabhu evening GWG! how goes it?
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GWG A bit angry, but that isn't indieweb related
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GWG Trying to relax for a few and focus on new ideas
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KartikPrabhu good good
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GWG Any news on your trip?
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KartikPrabhu GWG: I am most surely coming now. Looking at hotels in Manhattan (don't know if that is a good idea)
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KevinMarks KartikPrabhu, did you see http://www.yosefk.com/blog/why-bad-scientific-code-beats-code-following-best-practices.html
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GWG KartikPrabhu: You can get a decent deal there if you hunt. Remember subway is your friend
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GWG You don't need to stay close to midtown.
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GWG As long as you are near a train that goes straight there.
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KevinMarks I got a good weekend deal at club quarters before, as they are mainly full in the week
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KartikPrabhu GWG: yeah good point!
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GWG KevinMarks: You going to East or West?
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KevinMarks Hipmunk is good at hotel sorting
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: thanks for the link. I'll read it tonight. I probably will disagree that "bad scientific code is better"
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KevinMarks Still debating that. East is appealing add haven't been to nyc for ages
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GWG KevinMarks: I would consider it, as I would KartikPrabhu, a pleasure if I could have the pleasure of meeting you in person
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KevinMarks West is appealing as Portland! And also tax free mac buying
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KartikPrabhu lol!
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KevinMarks If you need a new mac, the flight is covered
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KevinMarks_ reads todays log - lagged replies coming up
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aaronpk that's what IRC is for :)
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KevinMarks_ !tell barnabywalters the drawback of ZIP format is increased fragility - a bit error in HTML breaks one character
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KevinMarks_ in zip it can break more, potentially the whole file.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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tantek Kevinmarks are there archive formats that don't have that fragility?
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tantek.com edited /Contribute (+0) "2014" (view diff)
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bret gzip! actually I dont know
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KevinMarks_ it's inherent with compression really. old post: http://epeus.blogspot.com/2004/01/media-heresy-compression-is-becoming.html
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KevinMarks_ tantek: I like the idea of turning HTML headers into meta tags fro archiving
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aaronpk oh yeah. that seems potentially more dangerous though, since then you have to open the HTML doc with a parser and re-write it
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aaronpk more likely to cause unintentional changes to the rest of the file, depending on how much sanitization you do when parsing it
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KevinMarks_ true. similar problem to using HTML as templates and content...
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tantek aaronpk - same problem with inserting HTML comments right?
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aaronpk no, because the comment can be inserted with comment + html
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aaronpk comment + "\n" + html
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tantek so you mean before the DOCTYPE?
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aaronpk yeah
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aaronpk it still renders fine in browsers ;)
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KevinMarks_ you may break encoding parsing if you do that (cos some of the insane fallback rules only apply to the top of the file iirc)
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tantek hmm… I wonder if there is some minimal parsing you could do to find a "just inside the <head>" insertion point
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aaronpk could probably safely look for the first occurrence of the string "<head>", then add a newline and add the tags and another newline
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aaronpk which should work even if someone has "<head><title>Hi</title></head>" with no newlines
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KevinMarks_ might be safer to use HTML5lib
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tantek skip doctype, skip <html>, skip <!-- -->, if you see <head> then insert immediately after, if you see any other <tag> then insert immediately before.
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tantek :D
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aaronpk ugh html parsing
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tantek aaronpk, can't assume <head>
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aaronpk bah
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aaronpk would there be any drawbacks to including the comment block at the bottom after the </html>?
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KevinMarks_ so I can now send HTTP headers with </meta><script> in and you'll inject them in the document for me?
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aaronpk KevinMarks_: lol, presumably http headers would have to be html-encoded?
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tantek KevinMarks_: as usual, anything put into an HTML attribute would need to be htmlescaped
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aaronpk oops, escaped yeah
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tantek heh
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@kevinmarks great #indieweb advocacy here: http://aworkinglibrary.com/writing/index-cards/ (twitter.com/_/status/467083611280142336)
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KevinMarks_ Neil Gaiman I have indirect routes to via Open Rights Group
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KevinMarks_ he also emailed Technorati for tech support ~10 years ago
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KevinMarks_ I love Julie Ann's description of her talky.io team page as 'my brady bunch'
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GWG KevinMarks: When he emailed...did you say... "That's Neil Gaiman...I'm handling that email. No one touch it."
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KevinMarks_ you know it...
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