#indiewebcamp 2014-05-20

2014-05-20 UTC
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pdurbin KevinMarks: thanks. somehow I guess it would be from bradfitz
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KartikPrabhu GWG: I agree about "likes"
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tantek_ hmm… I seem to have tightened down my FB interactions to not get any spammer interactions (besides friend requests)
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KevinMarks bradfitz++
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Loqi bradfitz has 1 karma
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tantek_ KevinMarks - for what in particular
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pdurbin GWG: how about a little bell in your house (or pocket) that anyone can ring if they know the secret number?
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tantek_ I've wondered if it would be useful to make Loqi ask you "why?" in response to ++
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Loqi grins profusely
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aaronpk ha
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KevinMarks heh
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GWG tantek_: It isn't SPAM. It is just not communications per se.
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tantek_ well he certainly likes the thought of it
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aaronpk if you don't say something with the ++
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tantek_ right
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GWG pdurbin: Did that years ago
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KevinMarks for thinking about how to do things in a non-siloed way
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tantek_ KevinMarks: but LJ itself was a silo
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KartikPrabhu GWG: I have likes through bridgy only because they come from G+ and Twitter where (so far) I have managed to have relevant connections
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tantek_ oh good!
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KartikPrabhu I have completely stopped cross-posting/sharing to Facebook
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GWG KartikPrabhu: No one on G+ seems to connect to me.
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GWG Meaningfully
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GWG Twitter...sometimes
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GWG We'll see. MAybe I'm not active enough
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GWG Facebook, at least a like is someone reading it
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KartikPrabhu Yeah. I does depend a lot on your circles - no pun intended.
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GWG KartikPrabhu: You are always welcome to circle me
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GWG I need to start saying something interesting
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KartikPrabhu but we have much better communication here :)
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KevinMarks maybe because sixapart had 4 separate siloed codebases for blogging they needed to work on interop?
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I have contributed a lot of things that got some nice feedback. Not on my site though
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GWG I'm very proud of my series on toilet technology
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KartikPrabhu ha!
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I joke not
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tantek_ KevinMarks: no, they just killed or sold them one by one
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tantek_ until there was only one left
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tantek_ that was easier that working on interop
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I had a time when I was very interested in dual flush conversion
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tantek_ s/that working/than working
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Loqi tantek_ meant to say: that was easier than working on interop
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KartikPrabhu GWG: must admit to haivng no idea what that is. Another wikipedia deep rabbit hole dive is in order :)
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KevinMarks eventually they did, yes. 2005-07 they did work on it fairly well
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I can also give you my thoughts on concentric ring float valves
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tantek_ KevinMarks: you mean their pre-PuSH firehose?
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KartikPrabhu oh didn't know sixapart was behind Moveable Type
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tantek_ sixapart *started* with MT
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KevinMarks then bought up LJ, created Vox, and some others?
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GWG KartikPrabhu: When I get excited about something I'm learning about...programming, plumbing, etc... I drive people crazy.
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tantek_ they bought and shutdown Pownce also
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tantek_ told people to migrate to Vox
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tantek_ then shutdown Vox
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KartikPrabhu tantek_ KevinMarks oh ok! so much buy and shutdown. "Six Apart will now be focused on acquisitions and partnership that will enhance its market position in the content management services (CMS) industry" from their homepage
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tantek_ and then they got bought
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KartikPrabhu GWG: I know how that goes! Lately I have been telling everyone about indieweb :P
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tantek_ GWG, KartikPrabhu re: people liking / faving / (re)tweeting an article/post - long but worthy read (with data!) http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2013/06/how_people_read_online_why_you_won_t_finish_this_article.single.html
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GWG So, the question is how one encourages worthwhile engagement
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tantek.com created /read (+432) "stub with dfns, an article, see also" (view diff)
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pdurbin GWG: by writing good stuff?
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tantek.com edited /reading (-2) "verb should redir to verb" (view diff)
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tantek_ well if you come up with any specifics about encouraging reading, feel free to add it in an "Ideas" or "Brainstorming" section here: http://indiewebcamp.com/read
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tantek_ what is reading?
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Loqi To read or reading is the act of viewing and interpreting posts http://indiewebcamp.com/reading
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GWG pdurbin: Isn't that subjective?
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tantek_ :)
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tantek_ gets started on indiedictionary
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GWG pdurbin: You in the NorthEast?
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GWG tantek_: What percentage of the wiki have you contributed?
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tantek_ GWG, you could probably better answer a more precise question like what percentage of pages have I created.
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tantek_ (and then not counting redirects)
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tantek_ GWG, KartikPrabhu also about tweeting etc. does not indicate they read the article (sometimes indicates they didn't) http://www.cnet.com/news/news-flash-people-rarely-read-before-tweeting-stories/
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KartikPrabhu tantek_: yup! I suspected that :) and I did read the whole slate article
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aaronpk what is indiedictionary?
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pdurbin GWG: yeah, I'm in Boston
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tantek.com edited /read (+592) "2014-02 articles on reading vs. tweeting" (view diff)
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GWG pdurbin: You going to come to IWC East?
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tantek_ aaronpk, maybe a category? of semi-generic words?
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aaronpk words like "reading" that have a specific meaning in this context?
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pdurbin GWG: I added myself to the page already, I think
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tantek.com edited /read (+25) "Category:dictionary" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /Category:dictionary (+111) "stub" (view diff)
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GWG I have to look again
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tantek.com edited /storage (+24) "Category:dictionary" (view diff)
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pdurbin GWG: this: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Cambridge/Guest_List
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tantek.com created /dictionary (+33) "r" (view diff)
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tantek_ what is a dictionary?
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Loqi A dictionary is a collection of words and definitions of those words http://indiewebcamp.com/dictionary
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GWG pdurbin: That is Cambridge. I was talking IWC East in NYC
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tantek.com edited /Category:dictionary (+25) "self referential" (view diff)
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GWG pdurbin: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Guest_List
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tantek_ indiedictionary was a joke until aaronpk asked "what is indiedictionary?"
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aaronpk lol crap
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pdurbin GWG: oh. ok
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Loqi lolz
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kevinmarks.com edited /fragmention (+11) "add dfn" (view diff)
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KevinMarks do plurals work?
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KevinMarks what are fragmentions?
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Loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/fragmentions
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tantek.com edited /reader (+211) "/* Silo examples */ Facebook reader issue - Upworthy" (view diff)
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KevinMarks hm. didn't like my dfn
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KevinMarks trailing space needed?
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tantek_ this chart is amazing: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BfawXsMCIAAqSrW.png
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aaronpk dfn goes only around the term
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aaronparecki.com edited /fragmention (+6) "fix dfn" (view diff)
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KevinMarks aha
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KevinMarks what are fragmentions?
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Loqi Fragmention is an experimental idea to link/refer to an arbitrary part of a document http://indiewebcamp.com/fragmentions
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GWG It still won't answer my question
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kevinmarks.com edited /fragmention (+265) "/* silo implementations */" (view diff)
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tantek_ and either superfeedr doesn't parse Atom entry titles properly (i.e. XHTML support), or clients don't use their API correctly (knowing they might get markup) http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-05-19/line/1400522920
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tantek.com edited /discovery (+714) "/* Post Information */ link to main authorship, page-name-discovery, start braindumping publication date." (view diff)
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aaronpk p.s. if anyone else is interested, I have some new docs on using my indieauth token endpoint!
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aaronpk https://tokens.indieauth.com/
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tantek.com edited /authorship (+30) "discovery" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /page-name-discovery (+19) "linky" (view diff)
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aaronpk sonofa
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tantek.com edited /posse-post-discovery (+56) "linky" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /Discovery (+23) "r" (view diff)
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aaronpk how to fix this regex to not match the e.g.? http://rubular.com/r/SncUHdNXCj
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tantek_ aaronpk, context of the e.g.
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tantek_ ?
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aaronpk tryign to find the end of a sentence... "e.g." is not a sentence terminator
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aaronpk neither is "i.e." ... should I really just blacklist a few strings that end in "." that aren't sentence terminators?
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tantek_ URL to example?
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tantek.com edited /discovery (+253) "-= and add dfn" (view diff)
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aaronpk the rubular link above
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aaronpk http://rubular.com/r/SncUHdNXCj
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tantek_ oh page-name
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tantek.com created /page-name (+33) "r" (view diff)
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aaronpk oh
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aaronpk yeah
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aaronpk this works http://rubular.com/r/tpyJOp4Z53
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snarfed hey KartikPrabhu, kylewm, i'm using mf2py and trying to determine whether a property was explicitly provided or generated by an implicit property rule
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snarfed can you think of an easy way? or do i need to parse the html and look myself?
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tantek.com edited /page-name-discovery (+91) "fix definition, should be broader, and separate use case / e.g." (view diff)
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aaronpk or that
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tantek_ tommorris++ for setting up http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/UK and sub-pages!!!
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Loqi tommorris has 25 karma
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tantek_ but lols for not adding himself to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/UK/Guest_List
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kylewm snarfed: no easy way in mf2py ... that's an interesting problem
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: not directly form the parsed HTML
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kylewm is it a problem with microformats1 stuff that has entry-content but not p-name?
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KartikPrabhu as far as mf2py goes implicit and explicit properties are both just properties
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snarfed kylewm: nah. i'm handling webmentions and want to know if there's a u-url. if there is, i want to use it instead of the source url. however, i don't want an implied url that comes from an in-reply-to, repost-of, etc
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: understood. this case is specific enough that i can easily just dumpster dive in the html
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snarfed gotta run, but feel free to !tell me any ideas. thanks!
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: an u-in-reply-to should not contribute to the u-url of a post
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KartikPrabhu any example?
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aaronpk I need a good way to distinguish the two audiences who are reading indieauth.com
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aaronpk 1) people who have their own website who are signing in to websites
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Loqi !calc 1) people who have their own website who are signing in to websites
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aaronpk 2) people who are developing a service/app who want to use indieauth.com to handle logins
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KevinMarks do 1) get there only by being referred by a site?
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aaronpk they'd end up there while logging in to a site that uses indieauth.com, like if the site links out to indieauth.com saying "learn how to set up your site to sign in" or something
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aaronpk currently thinking about addressing #2 as "Developers"
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KevinMarks seems reasonable
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aaronpk yeah, I just had that realization. it will also help not confuse the #1 group
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aaronpk alright, now there's a minimal home page https://indieauth.com/ and setup instructions for users https://indieauth.com/setup and a separate page for developers https://indieauth.com/developers
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: re mf2py and u-url, i was actually seeing it get set from u-repost-of
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snarfed this does it: <article class="h-entry"><a class="u-repost-of" href="http://foo.com/"></a></article>
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: is that from some real world example?
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snarfed no, but it's not too exotic, right?
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snarfed that's just a very simple repost
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KartikPrabhu I don't know. if the h-entry has any other <a> it won't work
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snarfed sure, understood
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KartikPrabhu for instance any post permalink would do the trick
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snarfed still, single-link h-entries must be common enough
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snarfed yeah, maybe
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: true. but that is how the mf2 spec seems to work
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snarfed oh definitely. i'd just like to know the provenance, ie whether it came from explicit or implicit
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snarfed not a big deal though. i have other options
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aaronpk interesting
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aaronpk this would be a question for tantek
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: I would suggest that any code using parsed mf2 not depend on whether it was an explicit or implicit property. It might be an issue for mf2 parsing spec itself though... tantek might have better perspective
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aaronpk agreed
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: understood. i just worry that the impact of an error is pretty bad
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aaronpk if implicit properties are returning data that is not useful then I think that points to a problem with implicit parsing
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snarfed ie if i mistook the repost-of url as the u-url, that'd be very very wrong
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snarfed sure. i'll go with this for now and add sanity checks
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: agreed. But IMO that should be corrected for by the parsing spec
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snarfed (…and that's my cue to back away slowly :P)
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aaronpk ah the balance of developing a spec and developing something people actually use at the same time
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aaronpk snarfed: definitely worth bringing this up, maybe leave a note in #microformats or on the microformats wiki
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snarfed ok. grudgingly. :P
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aaronpk :D
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KartikPrabhu snarfed already cross posted in #microformats hopefully some one picks it up
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: thanks!
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aaronpk is waist deep in auth-land
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aaronpk way past knee-deep
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KartikPrabhu is writing a new post instead of working on file storage
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GWG KartikPrabhu: Good
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aaronpk probably for the best
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aaronparecki.com created /micropub-endpoint (+132) "dfn" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu notifix: you should fix your IRC client!
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aaronpk it's a bot
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KartikPrabhu oh! why is it here/allowed?
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aaronpk lol Loqi is the only bot allowed here ;)
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Loqi who, me?
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aaronpk it's subscribed to the #indieweb topic on superfeedr
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KartikPrabhu aah I see
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aaronparecki.com edited /micropub-endpoint (+4786) "move content from ownyourgram.com" (view diff)
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notifix Superfeedr Track Feed for include=indieweb: going to Homebrew Website Club, 2014-05-21 18:30 @MozSF. indieweb: http://t.co/cY71FRvK4K silo: http://t.co/WRG6uK8kE8 (ttk.me t4W91)
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notifix http://bit.ly/1mPIjPp
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aaronpk speak of the devil
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aaronpk just noticed there's a new "Save" option on facebook events
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aaronpk which apparently doesn't send any indication to the host of the event, but makes the event show up on your sidebar and stuff
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aaronparecki.com edited /micropub-endpoint (+186) "clarifications" (view diff)
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snarfed kylewm: just pushed a change that drops the See Original link. want to try FB publish yet again?
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aaronpk aw, so sad
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snarfed sad indeed
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snarfed aaronpk: you saw the background earlier?
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aaronpk yeah
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snarfed meh
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snarfed nothing's ever easy
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aaronpk facebook tends to have not as aggressive checks on stuff posted to the fb account of the fb developers
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aaronpk so i'm not surprised I guess
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aaronparecki.com edited /micropub-endpoint (+24) "add to indieauth category" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /micropub (+24) "add to indieauth category" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /IndieAuth (+23) "add to indieauth category" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /RelMeAuth (+24) "add to indieauth category" (view diff)
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aaronpk i just had a crazy idea for mirroring the wiki content
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aaronpk if you're downloading a copy of the wiki pages, and you fetch a page, you could send a base URL in the http referer header
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aaronpk then the wiki could collect a bunch of base URLs for mirrors of the content
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aaronpk and then if the wiki is down, i could show a page with a link to all the publicly accessible mirrors
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aaronparecki.com edited /micropub (+24) "link to [[micropub-endpoint]]" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /micropub-endpoint (+0) "/* Verifying Access Tokens */ fix link" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com created /Category:IndieAuth (+64) "Created page with "This category is a collection of all pages related to IndieAuth."" (view diff)
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kylewm snarfed: still getting the same error :( i am super tired of this bug
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kylewm snarfed: still works with 'include link' unchecked...
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kylewm lest it be misinterpreted by log perusers, "i'm super tired of this bug" was commiseration not criticism :)
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snarfed kylewm: bleh, i'm super tired of it too
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snarfed empathy is appreciated!
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snarfed one final thing to try...
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kylewm snarfed: this is a very "what did you see, DenverCoder75??" situation http://stackoverflow.com/questions/21466127/500-internal-server-error-when-posting#comment32424602_21466563
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snarfed hah so true
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kylewm DenverCoder9 :)
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snarfed kylewm: another lesson here is, i should bite the bullet and make a test fb user so i don't need you to test every time :P
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GWG snarfed: Unlike Google+, they don't seem to care
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snarfed GWG: for a long time, true. now they actually have an official "test user" feature for developers
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kylewm i don't mind, but my latency is not as good
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snarfed kylewm: true! ok, updated it to just add the link to the content. try once more?
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kylewm ah that worked!
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kylewm so it didn't like the link parameter at all?
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snarfed evidently, even though it was just the url
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snarfed that's exciting at least
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snarfed lowest common denominator, but what the hell
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kylewm hey, much easier to build on something that works than something that fails wthout explanation. congrats :)
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snarfed and to you
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snarfed thanks!
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kylewm struggling with a kinda basic webdev question. how to store my markdown posts and images in the same folder structure
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snarfed dumb naive answer: mine are all in a single flat directory :P
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kylewm like i want the post to be article/2014/05/19/1/slug and the image to be article/2014/05/19/1/header.jpg
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Loqi gives kylewm the post to be article
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snarfed hey GWG, bridgy publish should work for facebook now
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GWG snarfed: Will give it a shot in the morning.
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GWG Have to write something.
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kylewm basically should i differentiate based on file extension?
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snarfed that definitely works
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snarfed i do that
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snarfed whitelist extensions you want to serve directly
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snarfed images, html/css/js, etc
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kylewm okie, thanks
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chrisroos.co.uk edited /events/2014-05-21-homebrew-website-club (+358) "/* Where */" (view diff)
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chrisroos.co.uk edited /events/2014-05-21-homebrew-website-club (+73) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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@freerange We're going to host another #indieweb homebrew website club at GFR tomorrow. It's informal and fun. Come along! http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-05-21-homebrew-website-club (twitter.com/_/status/468654759155892224)
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pfefferle voxpelli have you seen https://github.com/voxpelli/node-webmention-testpinger/pull/3
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@kevinmarks RT @freerange: We're going to host another #indieweb homebrew website club at GFR tomorrow. It's informal and fun. Come along! http://t.co/… (twitter.com/_/status/468661385426395136)
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@floehopper RT @freerange: We're going to host another #indieweb homebrew website club at GFR tomorrow. It's informal and fun. Come along! http://t.co/… (twitter.com/_/status/468664606144348160)
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voxpelli pfefferle: Now I have – where's that u-like documented?
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pfefferle http://indiewebcamp.com/like
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pfefferle voxpelli and what do you think about also adding an RSVP post like http://tantek.com/2014/139/t1/going-homebrew-website-club-indieweb ?
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voxpelli pfefferle: I think we should have something for everything that an endpoint might get pinged with – even if it's pretty exotic and experimental – because endpoints needs to handle it gracefully anyway :)
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pfefferle ok
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voxpelli I kind of like it if a tool can be developed through some kind of progressive enhancement flow where it can start with very basic support and test that that works with everything and then add on more and more specialized things until it supports everything
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pfefferle (y)
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pfefferle ok, nice! I will pull some more later today if I have some free minutes…
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KartikPrabhu what is a like?
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KartikPrabhu oops that didn't work
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pfefferle voxpelli i also changed your avatar to an absolute path https://github.com/pfefferle/node-webmention-testpinger/commit/f08a100e3ea48409c903768f39c5a99c7ada88b4 otherwise you have to copy it into the prpject ;)
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pfefferle KartikPrabhu it is a way to send ”žlikes“ via webmentions
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KartikPrabhu pfefferle: I know. I was testing this Loqi functionality by which if you ask that question Loqi replies with a url from the wiki :) I guess /like does not have that markup yet
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pfefferle ah ok :)
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KartikPrabhu what is a reply?
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Loqi A comment is a kind of post that is in reply to some other post, that makes little or no sense without reading or at least knowing the context of the source post http://indiewebcamp.com/reply
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pfefferle ah ok, now i know :D
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KartikPrabhu good job Loqi :)
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pfefferle didn’t know his potentials!
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk added this in the last week. Some pages don't have the markup yet :)
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pfefferle ah… that was the dfn thing he experimented with!?!
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KartikPrabhu yup
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KartikPrabhu also likes the German quotation convention that you used above :)
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pfefferle oh, my client seems to change them automatically
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pfefferle …based on the language settings
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@neillyneil RT @freerange: We're going to host another #indieweb homebrew website club at GFR tomorrow. It's informal and fun. Come along! http://t.co/… (twitter.com/_/status/468687919574945792)
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cweiske it's not german quotation style. it's a normal typographic quotation
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cweiske problem is that no keyboard actually has two quotation character keys
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cweiske so people got used to broken quotation signs
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@neilcford RT @freerange: We're going to host another #indieweb homebrew website club at GFR tomorrow. It's informal and fun. Come along! http://t.co/… (twitter.com/_/status/468689448419745792)
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KartikPrabhu cweiske: hmm didn't know that typography nugget
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voxpelli pfefferle: My avatar isn't an absolute path though so its an edge case a webmention endpoint needs to support – to resolve the relative url ;)
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voxpelli pfefferle: to make that resolving even more challenging though we could perhaps add a <base> tag to say that it should resolve to voxpelli.com?
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pfefferle voxpelli the base thing would be an option… or to add the image to the node-server so it can be found on localhost:8080
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voxpelli pfefferle: yeah, but that only works if you let the node-server run infinitely, which is something you have to opt in for it to do
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pfefferle than let’s try it with the base tag
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voxpelli the base tag will likely break my endpoint as well, that's good :)
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pfefferle :)
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KartikPrabhu !tell kylewm: great work on mf2util specially the datetime parsing. (I lacked the regex skills to do it for my code.) Also feel free to include my representative h-card code (https://github.com/kartikprabhu/indietools) into mf2util if you think it is appropriate (or I could fork and send PR if that is better) :D
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KartikPrabhu morning indiewebcamp
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pfefferle good morning
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barnabywalters morning KartikPrabhu
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KartikPrabhu has anyone managed to auto-POSSE to flickr?
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KartikPrabhu the Jetpack thing in Wordpress doesn't do it
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barnabywalters KartikPrabhu: benwerd is the person to ask about that
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barnabywalters IIRC there’s a Known plugin which POSSEs photos to FLickr
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KartikPrabhu cool! thanks :) I'll ask him when he's around
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barnabywalters KartikPrabhu: you could also check out https://github.com/idno/flickr
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KartikPrabhu ooh sick! :)
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KartikPrabhu had forgotten that idno/known is opensource :P
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GWG barnabywalters: Have you got a minute?
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jonnybarnes looks like barnabywalters is busy
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GWG jonnybarnes: Happens
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jonnybarnes wooo, my blog successfully sent a webmention!!
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GWG jonnybarnes: Where did it send to?
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jonnybarnes though it currently appears as an "Other mention": http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2014/05/18/1/imessage
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jonnybarnes I'm assuming thats todo with my mf2 markup
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KartikPrabhu jonnybarnes: your "in-reply-to" should be inside the "h-entry". that way aaronpk can show your comment instead of just a link :)
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jonnybarnes KartikPrabhu: ok, will try and make that change.
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KartikPrabhu right now your "in-reply-to" does not say what is in-reply-to aaronpk's post
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barnabywalters GWG: sorry,I was getting lunch :) How can I help?
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GWG I was trying to implement proper comment markup on my test site before migrating the code back over to the live site. I'm still a bit confused about it
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GWG I took out the normal theme, and enabled the plugin I'm putting the markup in on the stock Wordpress theme
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GWG So only the comments should be marked up
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GWG http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftiny.n9n.us%2F2014%2F04%2F25%2Fvideo-embed-test%2F
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GWG I got confused when you suggested h-cite
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barnabywalters GWG: looking
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barnabywalters GWG: so I can see a couple of problems with that markup
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GWG I'm listening.
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barnabywalters e.g. <li class="facepile u-in-reply-to"> on line 112
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barnabywalters what is that doing?
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GWG The facepile class is for styling the individual profile images in the facepile.
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GWG The u-in-reply-to was my understanding that a comment is in reply to the page
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GWG Is that supposed to be the empty href I saw in some of the examples?
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barnabywalters GWG: the u-in-reply-to is not inside an h-cite, so it’s being applied to the h-feed
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barnabywalters as that’s it’s closest parent microformat
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GWG One second
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GWG I marked up the comments, but not the facepile
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barnabywalters GWG: if you’ve disabled parts of the markup then it’s going to have cascading effects
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barnabywalters and be very confusing :)
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GWG Try it now?
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GWG Not disabled, so much
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GWG I have the Mentions and the Comments styled separately. I fixed the markup on the comments, but not the mentions
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barnabywalters GWG: the comments and mentions are both outside of the h-entry for the actual post
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barnabywalters so they’re not being correctly associated with it
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GWG Without an mf2 theme, then....
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GWG One second
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GWG Swapping to my mf2 theme
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barnabywalters GWG: I don’t know how easy this is to do in WordPress, but I find it simplest to figure out what the main content of each page is and put that microformats2 root class on the HTML element
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barnabywalters in this case, <html class=“h-entry”>
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GWG barnabywalters: Swapped to my mf2 compliant theme.
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barnabywalters GWG: looking
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GWG The h-entry is in it
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GWG Still the same problem, I think
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barnabywalters GWG: yep, all the mentions and comments are in a different branch of the tree to the h-entry
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GWG You are right. The h-entry is on the article ta
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GWG So, this is a design issue.
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GWG Back to the drawing board
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barnabywalters also, watch out for that class=“hfeed”
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GWG Yes?
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GWG I think I fixed that in the update
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barnabywalters ah okay
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GWG This is my test site.
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GWG The solution is to merge the changes with the live site
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barnabywalters OTTOMH I can’t remember what the spec is for conditionally upgrading classic microformats, but it looks like in this case php-mf2 is upgrading the class=“hfeed” even though there are mf2 classes below it
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barnabywalters which might be incorrect behaviour
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GWG Let me check one more thing
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GWG Let's see if pfefferle's theme has the h-entry in the right place
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pfefferle sure it has ;)
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GWG Because right now, I'm testing my plugin code. It depends on the theme being coded right.
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pfefferle it was a lot of work to do the h-feed/hfeed stuff right ;)
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GWG pfefferle: I'm just trying to test comment markup
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GWG http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftiny.n9n.us%2F2014%2F04%2F25%2Fvideo-embed-test%2F
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GWG Now, Sempress is activated.
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barnabywalters GWG: that’s looking better!
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GWG Yes
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barnabywalters the only thing remaining now is that the like h-cites are just children of the h-entry, rather than being nested on some property
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GWG barnabywalters: What should they be nested on?
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barnabywalters personally I nest all responses under p-comment in order, but you could also put them under p-like
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GWG I think I just fixed that.
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barnabywalters this is untrodden ground
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GWG I added the p-comment
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barnabywalters as there aren’t really any conventions on what to do with these bits of data yet
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barnabywalters GWG: ah yep, I see it now
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barnabywalters nice work!
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GWG barnabywalters: So, you are saying, to simplify, I don't understand it because it is not yet understood?
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barnabywalters the like h-cites still have some weird properties
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barnabywalters GWG: yes :)
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GWG barnabywalters: Weird how?
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barnabywalters e.g. they have a “like” property which actually seems to be their URL
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barnabywalters and in-reply-to should be like-of
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PMurphs ayo
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barnabywalters greetings PMurphs! welcome to #indiewebcamp
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barnabywalters GWG: also, consider adding an explicit author
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PMurphs thanks man
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GWG barnabywalters: That will require a bit more work...the in-like-of...will have to move the code inside the conditional instead of outside. But no t a problem.
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barnabywalters GWG: basically the like h-cites should be just like the comment h-cites but with “like” in a few places :)
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GWG Okay.
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GWG Will get it right eventually
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barnabywalters GWG: this is valuable research for future indiewebify.me tests
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barnabywalters PMurphs: what brings you here?
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GWG barnabywalters: I'm hoping for a comment/webmention tester
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barnabywalters GWG: what exactly do you want it to do?
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barnabywalters checkmention does a really good job of testing webmention receiving
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PMurphs barnabywalters: dude i know hangs out in here
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voxpelli GWG: seen the node-webmention-test* tools? http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#node-webmention-testpinger Suggestions welcome for them
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pfefferle oh, voxpelli was faster ;)
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PMurphs just kinda lurkin at the mo'
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GWG Will fiddle with it
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GWG barnabywalters: Like the other tests there...advise me on my markup?
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GWG barnabywalters: I think I addressed some of the comments you made right now.
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barnabywalters GWG: currently adding better documentation on how to mark up incoming likes on /like
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pfefferle barnabywalters can you tell me why the author is redundant? http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http://notizblog.org/2014/02/20/wir-brauchen-metadaten-fuer-telefonnummern/
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pfefferle is it a problem with my code?
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GWG pfefferle: I found a problem with your code
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GWG pfefferle: We are both rewriting the same thing.
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GWG https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-semantic-linkbacks/blob/master/semantic-linkbacks.php#L278
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GWG Shouldn't that be u-photo, not photo?
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GWG I was wondering why that wasn't working.
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GWG My code was superseded by your code
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pfefferle yes
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pfefferle u-photo is mf2
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pfefferle photo mf
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GWG Should I file an issue to add u-photo?
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pfefferle yes, please!
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GWG Done.
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GWG pfefferle: Thank you.
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GWG Now that my only problem is that...I can fix the h-entry theme issue
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /like (+1182) "Improved “How” section, split into post/publish and consume/markup with example" (view diff)
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barnabywalters GWG: check out http://indiewebcamp.com/like#receive_and_markup_incoming_likes
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GWG Bookmarking that for further in depth review
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pfefferle GWG https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-reply-context/blob/master/reply-context.php#L149
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pfefferle barnabywalters do you have an idea why the author is redundant? http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http://notizblog.org/2014/02/20/wir-brauchen-metadaten-fuer-telefonnummern/
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barnabywalters pfefferle: looking…
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pfefferle oh, sorry
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GWG is really enjoying this back and forth discussion
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barnabywalters pfefferle: hrm, I’m not sure what’s going on there
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pfefferle hmm ok
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barnabywalters it might be something to do with classic root properties being upgraded to mf2 ones incorrectly
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barnabywalters but I’m pretty sure I fixed that
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barnabywalters I shall make a reduced test case
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pfefferle perhaps aaron is using an old version
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pfefferle do you have the latest version on your server?
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barnabywalters pfefferle: no, it’s my bad — running it through waterpigs.co.uk/php-mf2 with classic conversion turned off fixes the issue
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barnabywalters so I have backcompat problems to fix
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pfefferle should i file an issue?
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barnabywalters pfefferle: aside: just spotted a bunch of published/updated datetimes with values like this: 20. Februar 2014 bei 10:41
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barnabywalters pfefferle: that would be great
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pfefferle oh… hmmm, will have a look
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pfefferle barnabywalters could that be the same problem?
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pfefferle barnabywalters the code is <time class="updated published u-updated u-published" datetime="2014-02-20T10:36:01+00:00" itemprop="commentTime">20. Februar 2014 bei 10:36</time>
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barnabywalters pfefferle: ah, that would explain it — u- properties are parsed as URLs
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barnabywalters they should be dt-* properties
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pfefferle oh man… you are right
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pfefferle thanks
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pfefferle will fix that asap
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GWG My attempt to fix the h-entry issue did not work
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GWG http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fdavid.shanske.com%2Farticles%2F2014%2F04%2F29%2Fdesign-obsession%2F
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GWG Will have to look at this more.
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pfefferle what is wrong with the h-entry?
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GWG The parser seems not to get it
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pfefferle what are you trying to do?
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pfefferle u-in-reply-to should only be used for links
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pfefferle otherwise you have to use p-in-reply-to
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GWG I need to backport the comment changes to the live site.
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barnabywalters pfefferle: well, technically it actually doesn’t make any difference
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barnabywalters but the convention is to use p-* for nested microformats
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pfefferle and in-reply-to is for the other way round…
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pfefferle if you reply to someone
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pfefferle not if someone replied to you
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pfefferle the same with u-like
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pfefferle you use u-like for sites you like not for sites that liked your page
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pfefferle i use ”žp-comment h-entry“ for my comment section
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pfefferle and ”žp-in-reply-to h-cite“ for my reply context
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GWG Going to fix this over the next few days
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GWG As part of bringing the plugin to the main site and ripping out the integration.
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pfefferle GWG that is what i am using http://microformats.org/wiki/comment-brainstorming#microformats2_h-feed_p-comments
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pfefferle GWG Ah no… this one http://microformats.org/wiki/comment-brainstorming#Proposal
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GWG pfefferle: The list of things I want to do continues to grow
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GWG 1. Fix this.
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GWG 2. Continue to remove features from my theme and turn them into reusable plugins
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GWG 3. Add new features
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GWG As I remove features and move them to independent plugins though, I've been improving them.
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pfefferle GWG a lot to do :)
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GWG pfefferle: The problem with improving infrastructure is that people don't notice as much
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GWG I added a check for the presence of your plugin, on which mine depends, and if it fails, the plugin changes to a simpler display
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GWG Without the semantics.
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GWG So, that only will come into play if someone didn't read the instructions.
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pfefferle ok
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pfefferle nice
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jonnybarnes is aaronpk there?
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tantek jonnybarnes: go ahead and ask your actual question, or if you really feel like you need to be sure he sees it when he's actively here, then use !tell aaronpk
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jonnybarnes cool it worked, updated my mf2, resent the webmention to aaronpk and voila, my reply is displayed properly on his website
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tantek jonnybarnes: awesome!!! which post of his?
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jonnybarnes tantek: http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2014/05/18/1/imessage
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jonnybarnes it initally had me as "Other mention"
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@t did almost a full #npsf #trackattack workout! 2x400 stadium stairs 3x800 stadium stairs 2x400 one 800 shy. ... http://tantek.com/2014/140/t1/going-homebrew-website-club-indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/468767057413033987)
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tantek oops screwed up the permalink slug on that one
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tantek excuse me while I go fix it
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jonnybarnes presumably my h-card info needs to be inside the h-entry? http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fjonnybarnes.net%2Fnote%2F65
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tantek should be - for authorship
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tantek but we have fallbacks in case that doesn't fit the markup pattern you use on your permalinks
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: my guess would be that “other mention” is because aaronpk’s code isn’t correctly parsing your in-reply-to h-cite
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tantek jonnybarnes: not just "inside", but on a "p-author"
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jonnybarnes barnabywalters: aaronpk's site is now showming my comment, but its from jonnybarnes.net and doesn't show my profile pic
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jonnybarnes my hcard info is in the footer of the page at the moment
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tantek e.g. <a class="p-author h-card" href="http://jonnybarnes.net/">Jonny Barnes</a> inside the h-entry
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tantek jonnybarnes: why no h-card on your home page? https://jonnybarnes.net/
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tantek a lot of content there you could mark up into a rich h-card!
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tantek and then all you'd have to do is put a rel=author hyperlink from your posts to your home page
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jonnybarnes I currently have an h-card at the footer
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tantek e.g. on the header link to your home page
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tantek so the problem with a footer h-card is that there's no way to assume an association between that and the h-entry on the page
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tantek thus you need to explicitly indicate authorship in some way
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tantek *either* with a p-author h-card as I noted above
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tantek *OR* by putting rel=author on your existing link to your home page
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tantek e.g. on this link: <a rel="author" href="/"><h1>Jonny Barnes.net</h1></a>
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tantek and then just markup your home page with h-card
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jonnybarnes thatnks tantek, for the time being I think I'll go with the second idea of a proper hcard homepage, then rel="author" link to the homepage
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tantek yes I think that makes sense because it involves the least change to your content / presentation (hopefully none)
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tantek i.e. just markup changes
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GWG Jeena, by the way, thanks for the comments
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aaronpk omg logs
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PMurphs pnus
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PMurphs whoops wrong channel
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: do you have the actual example of the h-entry that you were parsing that messed up implied url?
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: it was a synthetic one i made up as part of a unit test
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snarfed https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/blob/14e6d774fe76567b13965100a9e39e028c811763/blog_webmention_test.py#L144
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aaronpk jonnybarnes: I got an error sending you a webmention
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kylewm snarfed: i'd argue against supporting incorrectly marked-up posts... being stricter will help users get their markup right
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aaronpk a big ol' html page that says "Whoops, looks like something went wrong."
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Loqi kylewm: KartikPrabhu left you a message 5 hours, 45 minutes ago: great work on mf2util specially the datetime parsing. (I lacked the regex skills to do it for my code.) Also feel free to include my representative h-card code (https://github.com/kartikprabhu/indietools) into mf2util if you think it is appropriate (or I could fork and send PR if that is better) :D
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snarfed kylewm: eh, it's debatable. another school of thought is, be strict in what you emit, liberal in what you accept
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snarfed the argument that sways me right now is, make a note and then ignore it until it happens in the wild at least a few times
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kylewm procrastination++
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Loqi procrastination has 1 karma
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tantek snarfed - that sounds reasonable. The better we can help correct publishing markup, the better chance when someone views source, they'll get it right.
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bnvk awesomesauce++
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Loqi awesomesauce has 1 karma
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: that seems to be the consensus in #microformats too
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snarfed cool
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tantek snarfed, you could also show a warning if an h-entry permalink is on a different domain
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KartikPrabhu tantek: that might interfere with bridgy itself no?
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snarfed tantek: true, but it's actually a valid use case i want to accept
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snarfed exactly
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snarfed bridgy is unusual, but high volume at least :P
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tantek heh
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KartikPrabhu hey tantek: do people usually hangout after IWC? wondering whether to return back Sunday/Monday
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tantek I'll probably head back Monday
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snarfed on a related note, bridgy is down to 0 "now" bugs, ie bugs i actually plan to fix in the near future. https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues?labels=now&page=1&state=open
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snarfed if you have any bridgy bugs or requests, now's the time to file or bump them!
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jonnybarnes aaronpk: I think its fixed, can you try sending again?
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tantek there's usually a smaller crowd that goes out Sunday night - because we're all psyched to have gotten so much done and working and want to celebrate :)
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tantek snarfed++ for bouncing off of 0 "now" bridgy bugs!!!
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Loqi snarfed has 23 karma
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KartikPrabhu tantek: neat! will take that into consideration. Might as well get the full IWC experience ;)
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aaronpk jonnybarnes: jonnybarnes yep! "Your webmention has been saved"
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KartikPrabhu snarfed++ for bug fixes!
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Loqi snarfed has 24 karma
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snarfed thanks all
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jonnybarnes aaronpk: and its live :)
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aaronpk sweet
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: thanks for checking mf2util out! barnabywalters pointed out python-dateutil, which might be a better choice for handling datetimes rather than the regex. i'd love to combine our representative h-card algorithms, i have one that has worked for me so far but doesn't follow the spec to the letter (e.g., it doesn't consider u-uid). maybe it could use your stricter version and fall back on mine if it doesn't find one?
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: is your rep_h-card in mf2util?
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: jah, https://github.com/kylewm/mf2util/blob/master/mf2util/util.py#L83
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KartikPrabhu oh of course... will play around with it a bit and maybe fork/PR you with changes...?
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tantek I'd be interested to know of any improvements/modifications you guys make to the representative h-card algorithm in your implementation, and especially if the changes were driven by any specific real world web pages. kylewm KartikPrabhu
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KartikPrabhu tantek: I remember making some small change to parse adactio's mention... will dig into details
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kylewm please feel free KartikPrabhu
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KartikPrabhu alright lunch time out!
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aaronparecki.com edited /how-to-sponsor (+0) (view diff)
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aaronpk hello everyone! it's about time to start thinking about sponsorship requests for IWC!
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tantek for sure!
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aaronpk if you know any companies that would be a good fit and have a contact at them, put them in touch with me!
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tantek aaronpk, I'd start with previous sponsors, and then every sponsory of OSBridge 2014
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tantek s/sponsory/sponsor
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Loqi tantek meant to say: aaronpk, I'd start with previous sponsors, and then every sponsor of OSBridge 2014
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aaronpk for sure, but it also helps to have a personal contact somewhere. and i'd love to see some new faces there too
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aaronpk KevinMarks2: do you think Medium would be up for sponsoring?
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KartikPrabhu I don't have any dev contacts, but Instapaper seemed interested in fragmention atleast
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benwerd What are the sponsorship levels / needs this time round?
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aaronpk http://indiewebcamp.com/how-to-sponsor but I guess we're going to need 2x the food since we're in two locations
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aaronparecki.com edited /2014 (+319) "/* sponsor */ split sponsorship lists into two sections for east/west coast" (view diff)
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snarfed.org edited /2014 (+53) "/* sponsor */ bridgy" (view diff)
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bret aaronpk: maybe KevinMarks knows someone at medium tht could get a sponsor?
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bret that(
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bret *
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aaronparecki.com edited /OpenBlog (+35) "dfn" (view diff)
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tantek just because I like to /kick databases when they're down: http://www.ysearchblog.com/archives/000193.html
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tantek "Error establishing a database connection"
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ben_thatmustbeme might be because they moved (if you go to the home page)
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tantek nope - no site should ever give that error message.
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tantek I think they broke their redirects
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tantek likely that "193" had no meaning outside of being an ID in a database
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tantek after some archive.org digging I found the new location
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tantek http://www.ysearchblog.com/2005/10/04/whats-upcoming-at-yahoo-local/
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ben_thatmustbeme agreed, no site should, its like the just abandoned the old site
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tantek same domain ^^^ !!!
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ben_thatmustbeme oh... wait
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tantek exactly
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ben_thatmustbeme what the hell?
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tantek lol
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aaronpk switched cms?
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aaronpk broke all permalinks
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tantek insert database error instead of 404
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ben_thatmustbeme not-so-permalinks
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KevinMarks_ not sure who to ask at medium, I'll have a think.
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tantek KevinMarks: ?!?
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tantek oh sweet - we have SF, PDX, London HWC meetups tomorrow!
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KevinMarks_ that was in response to bret and aaron
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aaronpk london too! awesome
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jedahan wheres the NY one?!?!!
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jedahan :-p
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aaronpk do it!
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tantek jedahan: 1. find someone else in NY who wants to do a HWC meetup, 2. agree on a venue, 3. add it to the wiki page for the event, 4. show up!
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jedahan wonders if people would come up to the UES to meet at the metropolitan museum medialab :)
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tantek nice
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jedahan and if my boss would be happy or nonplussed about it
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tantek does your boss have her own website?
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jedahan nope :(
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tantek is your boss interested in having her own website?
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jedahan just presence on other people's sites
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jedahan i think that would be very low on his priority list
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tantek even a one-pager that links to profiles on other people's sites
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jedahan hes a friendly fellow
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tantek ask him if he's registered his domain name
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jedahan haha
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jedahan okok
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jedahan honestly i think hes got a lot on his plate right now, with me leaving soon (and being the only other person in the lab -.-)
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jedahan but i'll ask
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jedahan after hours using the lab is no problem
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jedahan during museum hours, it depends on how many meeting need to be conducted in the shared spce
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jedahan i have to head to a show now, maybe i'll be on later and add it to the wiki
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tantek nice!
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jedahan otherwise, ciao!
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tantek oh btw that ysearchblog post - when they moved it they deleted all the comments, but left the "18 Comments" meta info
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tantek see: https://web.archive.org/web/20090628101548/http://www.ysearchblog.com/2005/10/04/whats-upcoming-at-yahoo-local/ for the comments
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ben_thatmustbeme heh, 18 comments, and no way to add more
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jonnybarnes when marking up an address, can p-country-name apply to "UK"?
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jonnybarnes or is there a p-country-code/alternative
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tantek just country-name
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aaronparecki.com deleted /your_name_here "apparently not used"
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tantek nothing linked to it?
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aaronpk nope
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ben_thatmustbeme it literally just had a persons name on it
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tantek history?
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ben_thatmustbeme its official tantek, seems like every note on your site now appears in my Google Now cards
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aaronpk one edit, no inbound links
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: oops
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ben_thatmustbeme i can turn it off. I more wish I had some way to tell google I only want articles
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tantek if only Google supported Activity Streams...
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jonnybarnes tantek: I think I've done what you suggested to my homepage, also added a <link rel="shortcut icon"> to the head, in theory if i send webmention to aaronpk for example, he should be able to get my hcard info?
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tantek jonnybarnes: btw re: marking up an address: http://microformats.org/wiki/h-adr#Properties
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kylewm !tell barnabywalters, sorry I <h1>'ed you here http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4W9KrK/. it was supposed to be a hashtag, I forgot that markdown would change it :)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek in theory - depends on his site's support of consuming rel=author
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tantek jonnybarnes: ^^^
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jonnybarnes yeah, I don't think my site supports consuming rel=author
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jonnybarnes I'll have to add that
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tantek per the /authorship algorithm
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KartikPrabhu jonnybarnes: not all sites retrieve the homepage h-card I have notived
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KartikPrabhu s/notived/noticed
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Loqi KartikPrabhu meant to say: jonnybarnes: not all sites retrieve the homepage h-card I have noticed
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jonnybarnes also, re the microformats link, its not clear that the country-name includes the two letter country codes
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jonnybarnes maybe the wiki should be edited to say that if it is the case
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tantek or at least an explicit FAQ
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tantek jonnybarnes btw feel free to ask any generic questions about microformats in #micformats
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tantek #microformats that is
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jonnybarnes on freenode?
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tantek yes
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tantek added: http://microformats.org/wiki/h-adr#What_about_country_codes
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jonnybarnes thanks for the clarification tantek
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tantek no problem! it was a good question and led to a how to
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tantek FYI: https://www.w3.org/2013/08/data-activity.html
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aaronpk requires auth: W3CACL
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tantek sorry that's the old link
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tantek this: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-new-work/2014May/0011.html
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tantek should be public
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tantek which links in particular to this: http://www.w3.org/2013/socialweb/social-wg-charter.html
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KevinMarks Hmm, if Scotland says yes to independence, does the UK get a new country code?
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tantek why would it? not like the US would get a new cc if Texas says yes to independence.
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KartikPrabhu what tantek said :P
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tantek forgets and /invites KevinMarks to #indiechat
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tantek back to http://www.w3.org/2013/socialweb/social-wg-charter.html
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tantek I want to point out a few things you folks may like
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tantek note under "3.3 Milestones" it says "… the Social Web WG page."
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tantek even better, see: http://www.w3.org/2013/socialweb/social-wg-charter.html#roadmap
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tantek where " group home page " links to: http://www.w3.org/Social/WG/Overview.html
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tantek which is actually a redirect of a wiki page
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tantek which itself says: "Discussion irc://irc.w3.org:6665/social "
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tantek you're welcome :)
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tantek jonnybarnes: do you have a page where you have "UK" as a visible country name?
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jonnybarnes erm, on my homepage, https://jonnybarnes.net/ I say I'm from Manchester, UK
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tantek ok that's what I needed. thanks.
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KartikPrabhu alright there it is!
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Jeena no feeds for https://jonnybarnes.net/?
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jonnybarnes Jeena: as in my notes or articles?
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Jeena yeah, not even a h-feed ;)
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jonnybarnes I haven't got round to implementing that yet ;)
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Jeena I have a "IndieWeb" category in my feedreader where I like to put the people into
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tantek jonnybarnes: updated http://microformats.org/wiki/h-adr#What_about_country_codes
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tantek (which you'd see in #microformats :) )
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tantek (the channel)
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GWG Jeena: Thank you for your comments
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Jeena hm GWG I'm not quite sure who you are, I've commented all over the Internet! ;)
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GWG Jeena: https://jeena.net/notes/160
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Jeena ah, david, nice, and it even showed up, I assume you moderate not only comments but even webmentions?
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GWG Jeena: I'm using Wordpress. Mentions are comments
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Jeena ok
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GWG That's how the plugin works. It imports them into the Wordpress comment sysem
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KevinMarks_ watches the KNown demo
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_ link?
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KevinMarks_ it's a live demo at their incubator
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KartikPrabhu aah cool! any chances of video?
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KevinMarks_ not really doable, sorry
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KevinMarks_ VCs telling them to be more focused on community
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aaronpk What does that mean?
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KevinMarks_ the known pitch is community website management
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KevinMarks_ but then they went broader
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KevinMarks_ "groups are really hard to monetize"
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KevinMarks_ "you're not competing with automattic, you're competing with the wordpress economy"
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KevinMarks_ "I couldn't tell if you're enterprise or consumer"
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KevinMarks_ pitch doesn't mention indieweb
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aaronpk By name or by concept?
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KevinMarks_ by name - he shows POSSE, says own your data etc
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